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4 Over 5 Polyrhythms - Advanced Drum Lessons
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2011
- FREE Series: Easy Drumming That Sounds Hard - bit.ly/PTaUB1
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Learn how to play a 4 over 5 polyrhythm in this video drum lesson.
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View the resources for this lesson at: www.drumlessons...
![Drumming with Polyrhythms [3:2 | 3:4 | 5:4] + musical examples](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/73jEJ33YLq0/mqdefault.jpg)
To clarify for all of the viewers, this is a polymeter and not a polyrhythm. Here's why: A polyrhythm occurs when rhythms of different subdivisions are occurring at the same time in the same time signature. Most common would be like 5 beats in 4/4 and quarter notes in 4/4. What you are hearing is a measure of 4/4 split both into four equal parts (the quarters), and into 5 equal parts, and then played at once. A polymeter is when two TIME SIGNATURES are happening at the same time. Polyrhythms will land on the same beat every downbeat of a measure (or group of measures, depending on how it is divided), while polymeters will only meet on the same beat after the lowest common denominator of beats is reached. (i.e. 3/4 against 4/4 will meet on the downbeat in 12 beats, 3 x 4). This video shows a polymeter because the top line is downbeats in 4/4, and the bottom is accents on 1 and 3 in 5/4. The pulse is the same, and the timing of quarter notes is the same, except that the top line has 4 quarter notes in a sequence (or measure), while the bottom has 5. Hence, polyrhythm (multiple rhythms at once), polymeter (multiple meters, or time signatures, at once). Hope this helps. This video is a great explanation either way, just mislabeled. Keep drumming!
Good info, thanks for sharing.
Gabriel Kyne Anytime.
Yeah, I was like "What?" Thanks for clarifying!
Yes, you're absolutely right! But I thing a polyrhythm of 4 over 5 would be also if he'd play accents every 4 notes over a quintuplet base.
So that's why something feels not right. Cuz I'm expecting polyrhythms to sound a lot more odd and avant-garde-esque. This demo almost felt like odd time only but not polyrhythmic.
Danny Carey should've taught the real 4:5 polyrhythm
this is wrong. your five pattern is not even. all pulsations should be equally distant in time. it's trickier, but good attempt
yeah this is fail
he broke the five into 2 and 3. i don't see anything wrong with that. drop the beat on the third note and bob's your uncle but in the meantime, this works for me.
@@jonjoe5833 both of you makes sense.
I get better results, right g the shut out myself on damn yellow notebook paper. And painstakingly practice it.
I like 7-5-3 combinations.
This is not 4 over 5. This is 4 over 4 times of 5/8 with accents 2+3
This is absolutely a polyrhythm. Take away the 2nd note on the 5 patterrn and you will be left with the bare bones- 5 over 4 POLYRHYTHM. I can see where the confusion would come from though with the 5 being subdivided. Hope this helps
+Phil Galatioto +Claus Rothe Isn't this just a polyrhythm with 3 elements? a 4, a 5, and a 5 offset by 2?
+Phil Galatioto I think the problem is what you said, the 2nd notes in the 5 pattern. But since we don't really play 5-lets there's really no point in feeling the two polyrhythms on their own. The 4 feel will dominate the 5-lets. Or rather, most people will never put the metronome matching up the 1st notes in the 5 pattern. We're not going to count, (1)234[5](1)23[4]5(1)2[3]45(1)[2]345(1). If that makes sense. Semantics. w/e.
edit: on a side not. I actually started doing just that. Making 5-let be my base subdivision. It's quite challenging and pretty pointless unless it's 100% engrained in my muscle memory. Maybe in a few years.
911 was a jesus job
Is not polyrhythm at all, is a thing called "Cross rhythmyc" used a lot on african music. Is a combination of Polymetry and polyrhythm cause is a polyrhythm with displacement.
For a pure (constant) polyrhythm that fits into one measure I made this mnemonic about indian food:
Papadam is best with chutney"
i have thought about this concept on my own and how it would sound. never knew it was actually a thing
@bleifingerT That's shell noise, from the air bouncing around in the bass drum. I think the kick needs a little more muffling.
Sorry, Mr. Atkinson, but while that's a neat pattern, but the way you used the word polyrhythm is not correct. What you presented is NOT a polyrhythmic beat, but a polyMETRIC beat. Using the correct terminology in the correct context is important.
no
You're literally wrong
true in the way he is teaching, but it could still be the same polyrhythm if he uses the top line in the chart as the 5 rhythm and the lower one as the four. The top goes "X X X X X" and the bottom goes "X X X X X X X X". Basically if he uses the whole thing as a bar.
@@MellowJelly I think it is a polymeter, because if it was a polyrythm it would need 5 bars of 4/4 (5*4=20 which is a multiple of 4 and 5)
A polyrhythm is when you have two different groupings playing in the same exact space (say, one measure). Playing 4 and playing 5 in the same measure would be a polyrhythm. Nothing goes over the barline, the same space is divided in different measurements. If your are in 5/4 play beats 1, e of 2, & of 3, a of 4 with your left hand while playing the 5 quarter notes in your right. You will be playing 4 over 5 in the context of 5/4. Playing it in the context of 4/4 (5 over 4) will sound different.
@SONORSQ2guy
well, probably also because he has an acrylic kit, because i think that a wooden shell has different resonant frequencies, which sound less basketball-like.
@91Bartek2365 It's just two kicks, followed by a snare + open hat, tom 1, tom 2, two kicks again, snare, and lastly the crash.
This is the polymeter at the end of The Grudge from Tool, isn't it? Very nice
It is also in the polyrhythmic section of Rosetta Stoned from Tool :))
I'm happy that you shared your valuable knowledge with us.
depends on the number on the bottom. for instance, 5 over 4 means there are 4 quarter notes which best resembles the pulse of the music (the beat you feel). If it was 4 over 5, then there would be 5 quarter notes which best resembles the pulse of the music. the number on top is what the bottom number is divided into.
That was super informative and im not even a drummer! Im a beatboxer and im going to use your lessons to improve! Thanks for the great video!
a beat boxer... cool never heard of that as a profession. then again theres a lot i dont know...
Its not a profession, just a hobby. :)
awesome!
Naw, Kyle's right. The guy's playing a hemiola. Idk why if or why wiki says that, but a hemiola is any phrase that, when repeated, goes over the barline, eventually lining up depending on the subdivision and number of subdivisions of said phrase. It's only a hemiola if it's repeated though. The drummer is in 4/4 but plays a group of 5 sixteenth notes. He plays a crash every other time the bass drum lines up, which is why he crashes on beat 3. The sheet is in 4/4 but it can be heard in 5 or 10/4
i love the sound of your snare!
The best way to describe this beat is simple. What he is playing he is only in 5/16. But in this instance he is only playing 5/16 on the limb that is playing the beat with the two strokes each. The other limb is playing 5/4. Thats the one just keeping a single 1/4 note pattern. What happens is since the two time signatures are different they are not resolving at the same time until the 5/16 plays 4 times. And then its starts over. This makes it a polymeter. The reason why is because with a polyrhythm both patterns resolve at the same time, but when only played once. A polymeter resolves after multiple measures or meters. Also, when he adds the snare to the equation, he is actually playing a 2/4 with his hands. This is a 2/4 pattern because you can count it out like this: hi hat, snare, hi hat, snare, etc. So it can be counted after 2 beats. Now with this, the 5/16 will resolve after 10 repetitions, still making it a polymeter. I someone post that if you take off every other stroke on what I said was the 5/16 pattern, then that would make that a polyrhythm. And that is exactly correct. The 5/4 would still be playing 5 beats which means it still is 5/4, but the 5/16 would now only be 4 beats which is making that 4/4. Each two patterns will resolve at the same time, and within one measure of 5. And that would then become a perfect 5 over 4 polyrhythm.
Its alright man. Thanks for explaining. The difference between the two is now solidified in my head.
what you said is true...but its a combination of 4/4 and 5/4 ...so what he did is also correct...he has added 2 notes in each measure of 5/4 just to make it sound better (which helps in understanding and feeling the rhythm better)...plus it has the added advantage of breaking down 5 into 2 and 3. Further ahead, odd signature rhythms are generally much easier when u break them into smaller pieces usually involving 2s and 3s.
It is true that In the absence of a melodic context, it is much harder to suggest which rhythm is the actual pulse of the music. One way to approach it is to listen to the entire song and see which rhythm takes precedence. If the whole song is a polyrhythm or a series of them, then the argument could be made that either rhythm is the pulse; however, by nature of design, one of those time signatures MUST be subdivided into the other - one of them is the true pulse.
For those confused please listen. He doesn't exactly have the best idea of how to explain it, but this is a 4 over 5 polyrhythm. 5 quarter notes as the main beat foundation (bar measure of 5/4 time signature) subdivided into four sixteenth notes, with the left hand pattern (the coinciding rhythm) playing and accenting on the fifth note of every beat, amounting to four notes total. True he embezzles it with all these unnecessary left hand notes (on the and of 1, the ah of 2, directly on the 4, and the e of 5), but if you REMOVE those notes, you'll have the bare bones correct form of 4 over 5.
Fun fact: The 4 over 5 polyrhythm is the exact primary polyrhythm used in the song "Ka$cade" by Animals as Leaders. Look it up and it will be the shining example of the polyrhythm.
Being able to learn this type of stuff in trackers like Renoise allows it to make so much more sense.
Wait so 20 boxes is supposed to be 1 bar? So why are there 5 hits for the 4 pattern and 8 hits for the 5 pattern? Also, why is the hits on the 5 pattern spaced unevenly? This is how I see it with decimals:
1 2 3 4
0 .25 .5 .75
1 2 3 4 5
0 .2 .4 .6 .8
In most musical analysis, a hemiola is a temporary shift in time signature. So, in a song that was mostly in 4/4, suddenly having a bar of 3/8 would be a pretty obvious use of a hemiola. This is the kind of stuff you see in a lot of the more "intense" progressive music these days. In addition to polyrhythm/polymeter, you see shifting back and forth with time signatures to get some similarly interesting effects.
@bleifingerT Agreed.
Very cool, thanks!
These videos are very helpful :) hope there are more
The top example you wrote are 5 counts of 16th notes, which is a measure of 5/4. The second example is a measure of quintuplets in 4/4 time.
10:22 please make a lesson with this fill, this is great
Why are the fives spaced unevenly? Shouldn't the spaces between the notes be uniform?
To say that it's not a polyrhythm is not an accurate statement. It is clearly a 5:4 phrase. The only problem is that it does not resolve inside of one measure. A more a accurate description would be "hemiola" because it flows across the bar line and takes4 complete measures to start back on 1 again. The exact same rhythm in written 5|4 with 16th notes would be a precise polyrhytm that starts at the beginning of each measure. You can also write it in 4|4 using fivelets/quintuplets and have a true poly-rhythm. The hemiola version is still a polyrhythm and may be easier to access for some as opposed to using quintuplets or playing in 5|4.
1 2e 3 & 4 a 5 1 & 2e a 3 & 4 a5e
B RL R L R L R B L RL L R LB LRL
your drums sound great
This is so COOL!
Plus, hemiola, according to Wikipedia, is a 3:2 relation. To me this sounds like a fixed relation, with no option to alter where exactly beats match up. While what I understand under term "polyrhythm", is 2 different time signatures which match at some point. What point exactly - depends on what time signatures you pick. And here you have options, as opposed to 3:2. Again, not expert, just 2nd day into this stuff. But it's an entertaining topic :)
I think thats just beat displacement, the poly rhythm is doing 5 beats at the same tempo, poly means many, so its like many rhythms, i think of it as playing 5/4 and 4/4 at the same time
another question for drummers: aren't you not supposed to leave the mallot on the heads? aren't you supposed to let it vibrate freely?
If you want it to resonate.
..with that being said when he plays 4 over 5, he's actually playing 5 over 4, b/c those 4 quarter notes are the pulse, but he has his chart upside down, so the chart shows 4 over 5, but the 5 is not the pulse in the example he plays.
take away every other left, and you have a 4 against 5. cheers
Has this guy learned the difference between a Polyrythm and a Polymeter yet? It's been 8 years.
Other than that, it was a good lesson.
What part of the meter would you reccomend 'feeling' as you play it? For example, would you pay closer attention to (and thus 'feel') the syncopated 5 pattern? Or would you pay closer attention (and thus 'feel') the simpler 4 straight quarter note pattern?
I know my question is a little complicated haha.
More Polyrhythm videos please!!!
How do you know how to make up your own polly rythem? Cause this is my second video and I dont know much of polly rythems.
this is remarkably groovy!
This is a grouping of 5/16 over 4!
You play a simple 5/4 and call it a polyrhythm. You, my friend, have a lot of studying to do.
Mild correction to my previous comment. I was thinking more about what wikipedia calls a "horizontal" hemiola. Coming out of a more classical-based background, this is the only stuff I've really discussed recently, as opposed to the "3:2" hemiola.
I think the idea one is 5 on kick and 4 on cymbals and snare in between
It's difficult to notate 2 different time signatures on one stave coherently. There is a method of notation that has the second count indicated by bracketing the secondary time signature above the grooves primary rhythm.
And listen to meshuggah more. That'll help with polys
or Tool, Danny Carey is a polyrythmn playing monster.
The 5 pattern sounds like the kick pattern used in D-beat. An example would be Motorbreath by Metallica.
Sweet.
A very, very nice sounding basketball.
why in the 3 over 4 you hit once per pattern (one time for the 3 and one time for the 4). but here you hit twice for the 5 pattern. any reason why, or just a preference?
This isn't a 4 over 5 polyrhythm.... The correct version of this polyrhythm would be 5 notes of equal length being played in the space of 4 notes of equal length simultaneously.
+Wesley Hyzell That is the starting point, but then he divides the 5 into 2+3, it makes it more interesting (and easier to play!)
+April Cox That isn't what he's saying I don't think, he's pointing out that this is actually a polymeter and not a polyrhythm. When he says notes of equal length he means the 4 notes are of one value and the 5 notes of another, i.e. being played at two slightly different tempos such that they resolve at the same time within a bar, as opposed to after a given number of bars as with a polymeter. Think a bar of 4 and a bar of 5 sitting right on top of each other and how the notes don't line up; that's what I think is being referred to here. I could be wrong, but it seems to just be a case of the misconception that the terms are interchangeable when this is a polymeter and not a polyrhythm!
Cailum Finnegan Phrasing-wise he's playing 4 bars of 5/16 over 1 bar of 5/4, I'd class this as a polyrhythm but I guess you could also call it a polymeter... If you were to play a bar of 4/4 over 5/4 (for simplicity's sake, just quarter notes in each) so they start and finish at the same time (two different tempos for each time signature), it would be the same as playing 4 bars of 5/16 over 1 bar of 5/4, playing quarter notes in 5/4 and a note every 5 semiquavers in the 4 bars of 5/16... It's hard to explain >_
I understand exactly what you're saying, just wasn't thinking about it that way! Thanks for clarifying :)
Cailum Finnegan :)
as in 5 does not divide by 4 evenly. for example, 4 goes into 8 twice, into 12 thrice, but does not go into 5 without a fraction.
Polyrhythm simply means multiple rhythms, so yes, this is a polyrhythm or hemolia, What this IS NOT is 4 over 5. It is 4 against 5. 4 over 5 would be take a bar of 4 and playing 5 beats in the same space.
teaching a 5/4 by comparing with a 4/4 makes it more confusing. Using existing music as example and counting the 5 quarters in a bar makes it clearer
Can you please explain the difference between those two? :)
Polyrhythms and polymeters are interchangable. A polyrhythm would be a 4/4 bar divided into 4 and 5 simutaneously. Or a 5/4 bar divided into 4 and 5 at the same time. You can also express that 5/4 bar as 20/16 which includes 4 bars of 5/16 and 5 bars of 4/16. Polymeters are just different meters running at the same time that meet up after so many bars. So, if you express polyrhythms in smaller divisions of the beat, you can understand it in the polymeter. This guy IS right...this is the correct way to mathematically derive a polyrhythm. What is a little questionable is the fact that its not a PURE 5 vs 4. He makes the 5 be 2+3, not just 5. So that's what makes it a little weird. If you interpret it in 16th notes, its a polymeter; in a bigger pulse, it is a polyrhythm. Everyone trying to tell this guy to learn his terms needs to learn their terms themselves. This is how it works. Drummer here.
The 4:5 is pretty easy. You’re only having to subdivide into 16ths. Trying to play a 5:4 poly is harder as you have to subdivide the beat into quintuplets. Despite this however it’s a whole lot more applicable particularly when you’re trying to play lazy or neo soul in time.
yah!
Reminds me of The Grudge by Tool.
you have it exactly backwards actually. polymeter is playing in more than one meter at once - so playing 5/4 meter and 4/4 meter at the same time is polymeter. In a polyrhythm you're playing in a single meter with two different rhythms contrasting each other. a polymeter is really just a type of polyrhythm, but isn't what he's doing in the video.
Won't be back to this channel. Wow.
yeah
Liked and subscribed! :)
Great, which song is that one at the end of the video? Great song!!
I"m new with the stuff but can count the 3:2 and 4:3 but this one i just don't get.
this is a polymeter, if you want to know how a 5 over 4 polyrhythm sounds listen to meshuggah's "I"
my knees are hurting but im starting to get it!
This is a cool idea! But this isn't truly a 5/4 polyrhythm. Check out the animation videos on youtube to get an idea of how it sounds and works.
dumbass
6:36 congratulations, you have basically learned the beat to the bridge in Rosetta Stoned
isnt it lowest common multiple?
pls what is d meaning of polyrhythm....pls explain from d scratch
This is polymetric, not polyrhythmic, 4:5 is 4 evenly spaced notes as 5 evenly spaced notes
I just count it with quavers and reduce it to 2 measures and a half or 10 quarter notes, but just imagine those 20 squares in the diagram are the whole measure and you'll have the 5 and the 4 totally overlaid in one measure, of course it will be harder to count since you'll have to reduce the pattern to semiquavers.
how about polymeter? confused... help me
If by 'lowest common denominator' you mean 'lowest common multiple'.
so is this guy doing a polymeter or a hemiola?
outro song name???
You do realize that the two go hand in hand? It is still polyrhythm, he is just emphasizing metric subdivisions of 5 beats. If you want to make it the basic 5:4, just take away every other note in the 5 beats line. But there is still polyrhythm here.
what's the difference ?
but in a pure polyrhthm where every meter has one drum playing five beats and another drum playing 4, and that is the only sound, neither best resembles the pulse of the music, they are both equal, no?
This is not a polyrhythm - He's grouping 16th notes in groups of 5 and playing every first and third note, in 5/4.
Check out Marc Atkinson's Unreel Drum Book for a clear and correct explanation of polyrhythms. Also, check out Joe Crabtree's Polynome app.
drumlessonscom seriously? ..."The Ultimate Online Resource For Drummers" doesn't know what a polyrhythm is?
lol, well said Matt!!!
Im new to polyrythms... but why do i feel like this is basically just a 5/5 groove?... You can count it as 5/5 and play it perfectly fine. Am i confused?...
You're almost correct. The reason why it's 4/5 because when you write it one limb is hit on every 4 counts in 5 measures. It'll make more sense as you progress.
Yeah i came to my music instructor at school and he pointed it out that i was confused because I was counting each block as a 16th note. I wish he just used regular notation for this... but thats preference of corse lol
this is what drumming is about
Isn't this a polymeter? Not a polyrhythm? 4 over 5 in polyrhythmic form would be 5/4 playing over 4/4 in the same amount of time. The quarter note would change. I could be wrong, but its just confusing me a bit.
isnt this the same as a backbeat?
shouldn't the 5 be equal? cause otherwise you could just play any old 16th notes and call it a polyrhythm if you don't have 4 or 8
i think a few minutes playing with bounce metronome would be more beneficial than this, sorry drumeo
Danny carey is god at these
Not expert at this, but what would be an actual application to 2 different time signatures that never cross? Why even have a name for something that does not make sense? Why spend too much time discussing the correct wording while the actual video is very nicely presented, with correct wording or not, video is great. I have been looking in UA-cam exactly for what I see and hear here in the video and I used the term "polyrhythm". Just making a point :)
I play progressive metal, I will use :3 ^^
Are you telling me, that as a drummer, I actually SHOULD have payed attention in math class?
Dammit.
Hey My friend, why don't you go one step down like just 1 51 4 1 3 1 2 1 0r 5. . . 4 1. . 3 . 1 2 . . . 1, because the gaps are to big? I wanna have a 4/4 beat with each count 5 for practicing jazz could you help me out on this one, I subscribed onm your Channel already, I mean to maybe put other accents in this one you put hear I totally get..real nice and clear..I studied also polyrythms but I didn't add the 3 on the 5 rythm...
this isnt considered advanced rhythm right? reason i ask cause im a guitarist/basist (20 years) and always thought /played (bs'd) on drums and found myself doing off beat/poly stuff for fun and realizing that the drummers ive played with couldnt even get close. i figured of its that hard to find a great drummer hell i mine as well make the switch to drums sometime in the future.
You haven't business teaching people polyrhythms if you don't know what they are. You are clearly playing a 5/16 rhythm over a 4/4 rhythm which is not a 5:4.
I thought the same thing, this guy haven't business teaching. So true.
He should of though how to play quarter notes in both the 4 and 5 the :/ helps the beginers understand easier
Is that a 5/4 and not a polyrhythm?I'm confused..Anyone know