10 Outlaws of Thunder Junction Cards I Was WRONG About
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
- #mtg #magicthegathering #cardgame
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I love the new visual of putting the old and new grade right away instead of showing them quickly at the end.
It isn't particularly new - but thanks!
I like how he said a spell that tries to resolve with no legal targets gets countered. They used to get countered, and getting countered makes perfect sense, but now the rules say "it's removed from the stack with no effect and sent to the graveyard". We should officially call it fizzle imo.
Been calling it fizzle since dragons maze
I think this was to make the game not explode when it spells that can’t be countered lost their targets
@@ShaqPlaque that's why cards that had targets and couldn't be countered would say "this can't be counted by spells or abilities". Abrupt decay had this text originally. Obliterate, an even older card, only said "can't be countered" because obliterate has no targets.
@@SpitefulAZ And that text was always clunky. Much better to live in a world that doesn't need it.
Indeed. I was farming wins the first 3-4 days by just stabilizing against people trying to run me over. A lot of people just thought this was going to be MKM part 2...and it ain't.
The bonus sheets make this format sometimes feel like a cube
Its awesome
One bonus sheet already made it kind of nuts in other sets, like brothers war. But there's multiple lmao, you can get a random pack that is 4 rares 4 uncommons. Makes it quite difficult
Right or Wrong, the GOAT of Limited analysis.
Hands down
Facts.
Yeah, i am often surprised when i differ opinions worth him he is often right. I can get to mythic in limited without 17 lands or other help and yet this guy always evaluates better than me.
Undisputed
I don't even play limited and enjoy this content😅
It makes me giggle that the 2 examples he gave for pest Infestation, making 5 and 7 tokens, are both impossible 😅
Great breakdown. The exile on consuming ashes is tremendously powerful in this format with all the recursion and it feels fantastic killing a good 3 drop and getting the surveil 2. My biggest mistake was giving pest infestation a C and I even played it in cube!
You're right, exile makes a difference. And I'm glad I wasn't alone on infestation.
Also, it's an honor to have your comment!
Your Limited streams back in the day are a big part of why I do Limited content.
Been enjoying seeing you back at it!
@@NizzahonMagic Thanks for the kind words. A lot has changed since I've been in the content game so trying to learn what I can from all of you!
Question: can either of you explain the wording on Pest Infestation. I'm confused on why if you target the treasure it nulls the whole card. Still getting used to strict wording on cards. I'd assume if it says target up to X AND create X tokens that it would null. The fact it's like two separate statements, I thought i would still fire.
Also, huge fans of both of your content. Been watching you, Nizzahon, for a few years, and Mr. Cheon, just got into your content during MKM. Love the commentary and describing plays for both of you. Really helped me level up my drafting knowing how strong players think. Keep it up!
Keep doing this style of analysis, it is so helpful!
That's the plan!
This limited format is way way waaaaay better than I thought it would be lol
This format is slower than I expected and I think that's the reason for a lot of the misgrading; high-cost removal is actually really good in set this set and 4-5 mana threats seem way more important than the all-important one and two drop curving out meta of previous formats; blue also seems terrible so far and I never end up in it - red, black, white, and green all have strong removal and excellent low-rarity threats and blue just doesn't have enough of either
i’ve trophied with blue decks but that’s usually off the back of stuff like lockpicker+make your own luck
I'd describe blue as being parasitic in this set. The two ways it seems able to pull its weight outside specific bomb rares and uncommons is to run only the most archetype-trailored cards for the exact color combination getting drafted (not like Naya mounts for instance that can just splash in and find their value) or just exist to draw the other colors more cards. I've seen Simic, Azorious, and Dimir all get good results at events, but what they seemed to have in common in each instance was a deck built so focused that it resembled constructed, and I mean, of course a constructed-resembling limited deck puts up results.
I think one other issue blue has is that not just removal but also reach is abundant in this set; in other limited metas flying is often enough to just take wins by itself, but not when there are 4/5 and 6/5 reach blockers in common coming down on turn 5 or sometimes even turn 4 and games generally lasting that long.
@@itsthatguyarc7186 Blue doesn't really get much of a claim over flying aggro in this set, white has more fliers (not a significant difference though, 9 to 8) but more importantly - better fliers, especially at common. Its worst common flier is better than blue's best common flier.
I saw Fblthp perform in the prerelease, my friend pulled it with Kellan and a bunch of good plot synergy and went 4-0. Clearly it’s not happening for people in draft mostly, I could see it being an intense build around.
Fblthp is definitely a late game card; I had it in my gUW prerelease deck, and it didn't show up often, but it absolutely broke a standoff by playing off the deck instead of waiting to draw. This format might not be ideal for him, but in the right deck he can put in some real work. Might not be an A, but it's surely not an F.
There’s better cards similar to Fblthp. The mana rock for 3 that gets counters as you commit crimes, for example. Or the 5 mana blue-green draw three. This format is juiced enough that you only have so much space for card draw effects
Also worth noting how poorly it plays with counterspells/instants
I remember videos like this where your ratings slide up or down by 1/3 or 2/3 of a grade. This set must have really surprised you.
Being upfront when your prediction turns out to be wrong earns you way more credibility and integrity than someone who tries to convince me they’re “always right” (IMO) … the imperfect standard is the “perfect” standard … props Nizzahon for the amazing work ❤
definitely, really enjoying his analysis and hey : being wrong in the early days of the sets is part of the game, and Nizzahon overall seems to have pretty good analysis anyway
Fblthp felt GREAT.... when it works.
He felt worthless when behind and if there's two lands on top he's a blank 1/1.
I once casted 3 seperate spells off the top of my library including a boucne spell desperately trying to not get killed next turn just to realise plot is sorcery speed so even if you plot an instant you can't cast it until your next turn.
You know, "casting for free" needs to be balanced somehow
@marcoottina654 it's a bit closer to "drawing for free" since you still pay the full mana cost with Fblthp you just get to plot off the top.
There is way too many strikes against this card. Bricking on lands is the major one. But also it's pretty useless to plot combat tricks so those are effectively bricks as well. And then AT BEST you have to wait an extra turn for the cards you pay full mana for.
@soggytoast111 I think those are less strikes against the card than strikes against how people are trying to use the card. People are putting it on the wrong decks. As to there being bad times to draw or play it, sure, but that's literally every card. Not that I think it's an A, but as people figure it out better, I highly doubt it'll come out as an F.
Rodeo Pyromancers' flavor text is very on point, if you accept that Bertram is actually completely right to label them useless.
When I saw Pest Infestation was in this set I was SCREAMING. I love it
RIP hammertime
If you happen to get the rare horse mount Gigapede becomes a way better pick, since making multiple copies of it is uh, pretty powerful
Greenblade has been an absolute unit in my Bonny Pall deck. Playing around him, Seeker of Sunlight, and Nicanzil, Current Conductor in the early game while ramping into Bonny or Titan of Industry has been pretty consistent
I first picked fblthp in my first draft and he was TERRIBLE. Omg it was so painful
Same. I went 0-3 T.T
I really love to play control decks in limited, and while I could successfully do so in previous sets, my first draft of OTJ was smooth as butter. I rolled over my opponents 7-2, and the two losses were games when I got outgrinded. Definitely waiting for the shipment to draft this in paper at my local club.
4 mana black removal also over performing due to exile I think, since recursion is plentiful and powerful
When I play a fast deck opponents play big stats every turn that gain life and stuff
When I play a slow deck my opp doesn't do much and plays only rares post turn5
BUT When I play "the coyote deck" with those 1drops and everything I go 7-0 every time
Overwhelming Forces was my MVP with my Grixis Outlaws
The strong creatures are so strong, they must be removed. That's probably why the 4-mana black removal spell is doing well.
This set is the most fun I’ve had drafting in a long time. Finally a format where games actually go long and have true splashy back and forth. Except for the draft where I had two Outlaws Merriments. But that isn’t an average experience lol
I feel like fblthp is a very build around card and there's lots of mistakes to be made in this set with the guy.
Obviously being a creature there is close to worthless since it just chumpblocks once when you are desperate. It doesnt work properly with spree nor counterspells (and do i need to call out the top blue common is both of those things?).
Where i had sucess with the guy was in the most controlling version of the azorius decks where you can disrupt your opponent tempo and then cast it a bit latter. It made a very silly turn with bounce plus the 4-mana blue giant zombie maker plus a clone plus another copy of the guy via 3 steps ahead. But most of the time it should be evaluated as a divination at best.
I think you can pay the spree costs as you’re casting the spell since it’s an additional cost? Haven’t actually plotted a spree card myself yet
Sounds like you’re having a lot of fun with this format, which makes me happy
Love this video series. Watching on my lunch break. You’re the best Nizzahon!
Hope you enjoyed it!
just to be clear about pest infestation : if you target a treasure token + another artifact, and in response your opponent sacrifices ONLY his treasure token, the spell still resolves, as it still has at least one valid target.
Not really intuitive, but it seems to work that way.
Yeah, you have to have exactly one target or only target treasure for it to go bad.
And there I was drafting double fblthp thinking it’s a bomb, right before watching this Video. I went 0-3 save to say.
something else that benefits Gigapede is that there's no Shock variant in the set.
Thunder Salvo and Slick Sequence.
@ebEliminator those are two mana, but you have a good point
15:53 is x 3.5? Are you sure you still know how this works now? Jk, just giving you a hard time. I even missed the "up to" line as well.
Yeah another bonus sheet card is city of ass
im waiting for the final thoughts on the set, im liking it a lot i just miss the time every set had at least one more expansion so they could expand even more the plane and the mechanics, only god knows when we will see more of the thunder junction
When you said "cast the ultimatum" I heard "cast the old potato" and I'm using that.
I still have suspicions about these win rates.
If "Everybody knows" a card is bad, the most informed players will not draft it.
It feels like it could become a "Self fulfilling prophecy."
For now, I really enjoy the format. I played almost all color combinations and none of them felt much weaker than the others. Some games are decided by bombs but they aren't oppressive and there is not too much removal. It definitely seems like one of the best limited formats in a while despite all the bonus sheets
Luv u Nizza. Best mtg guy ever. Please post more draft videos. You say you are 15 drafts in but only 5 draft videos on channel :(
Flooding the channel with a bunch of draft videos would probably be pretty bad for analytics
Holy honey smacks 'overwhelming forces' from Three kingdoms!? Hellz yeah
Weirdly, every time I force Green on 'Arena I get 7 wins. Every time I don't, I go 0-3. Once, I got as high as 1-3 when I was unable to force Green.
9:29 I think Fblthp would be so much better if it weren't double blue, blue feels like such a beating in this set to play that heavily
Tks! Really good!
Glad you like it!
This helps explain why my deck with 2 Fblthps did poorly 😂
PS LSV also rated it pretty highly too.
It's interesting how different the format feels even though data from 17lands so far shows it's actually FASTER than MKM was... but you'd never guess that during the matches.
i think it’s because games, while data-wise shorter, have less of that do-or-die early game typical of recent formats and is more decided by bombs or giant boardstates stabilizing around t6-7
I haven't played many drafts of this set yet but I am so far not finding my games go as long as yours seem to be. Maybe I am just too bad at it :)
Honestly I expected Fblthp to be as good as the reality chip was. Yeah the chip let you draw vs only plotting + it can play lands, but it didn't have ward and needed to be equipped.
I wonder how good Fblthp would have been as a 1/4.
I only play commander with Giada
Cunning coyote is very fun in not grindy matchups lol
Fblthp is Mirkwood bats over again.
I’ve been playing sealed competitively since origins. I also made top8 in the one RCQ I played for this set. That being said I hate this set in limited. All the shoved in extra sheets make it so whoever draws the best pool wins. When I would win it was unfair for my opponent (turn 5 vault tyrant or turn 4 Bonny Paul) and when I lost there was nothing my pool of cards could do to win. My one loss dude played toss from the saddle 8 times in the match. Maybe it’s just me but seems like there is no skill left it’s just slam mythics and win.
I can see how sealed would be unfortunate for this set, but the vast majority of people playing this limited environment are playing draft, where it's much less luck dependent.
Support comment, keep up the good work
Hopefully Wizards dumps a ton of new cards that harshly punish ETBs next format. Then balance will be resolved.
Nizza nizza
I thought the format was going to be grindier with the plethora of lifelink creatures.
im glad i still managed to win the event where i drafted aggro
Yeah aggro isn't completely unplayable, just less good than lately.
I enjoy the grindy nature of the format, though it's a bit unfortunate about the colour imbalance.
Every set is unbalanced, I don't think it's super bad in this format, though.
@@NizzahonMagic I feel in this format, all green/x pairs are mostly pretty even, and green is deep enough that it can support at least half the table (if not more). But it does feel like a format where you want to be green and where you go from there is pretty diverse. Did you notice that 23 of the 40 cards on 17lands with a higher than 60% winrate are green? I feel like the last time we got colour skew that bad was Midnight Hunt.
However, I am still enjoying this format a lot. I quite like big, stompy green cards (probably not surprising given my name) and it's much grindier than any format we've had for some time which I also really like.
@@monogreengreen is simply a more fun color to be dominant than white or red imo
I take back what I said about all G/X pairs being mostly even. Outside of Green white and black are a lot better than blue or red. Looking at more 17 land data the best non-abzan common comes after 30+ abzan commons and the best non-abzan uncommon comes after 20 abzan uncommons and after 25 for the first card that is blue/red and not also an abzan colour. The format seems to be draft green, pair with white or black (or both).
I'm still enjoying this format, but I disagree that the colour balance isn't super bad.
@@Jack-uh2db Especially after such a long time of red/white being so dominant
damn 15 drafts already. I have had time for two. Format is full of broken bombs been seeing a lot of top player 0-3
Poor Fblthp!!!
Guess I'll now have to go against my gut feeling for every future limited format. Thought WoE and MKM would be slowish, especially with MKMs "morphs" - they were aggressive. Resigned to this format veing aggressive - it's slow, right up my alley xD
This format will speed up, once people realize that the blue in the set plays more like red usually does and really requires a quick tempo and immediate pressure on the opponent. It also has the usual red drawback of the last few years of needing multiples of a couple early game uncommons and the correct color multi-color cards to be playable.
Heres hoping that Bloomburrow starts fast, stays fast, and has few bombs!
This format was obviously going to be a slow one, thankfully!
I don't know if you will ever read this comment but I've noticed that in these "What I got wrong" videos you strongly overestimate the information gathered from 17 lands. I'll give you a couple of examples:
-Cruel ultimatum: the winrate it has is strongly due to the fact that it's not played in most decks that draft it. If you don't get a deck that is suitable for it in terms of manabase and controlling capabilities, you simply don't play it. So it's normal that when you do it performs well, so no, it's not a B+ in the same sense as most B+ are.
-Rodeo Pyromancers is not an F, it's just that it's awful outside of BR (that also happens to be one of the hardest decks to make work in the format). If you manage to get a BR deck that can draw multiple cards a turn and hence double spell often, the pyromancers are good, and their statline is bad, not awful. So is it a good card? No. Is it an F? No, it's probably a D with upside.
No more crack a pack at the end of the video?
It's really funny to me that you kept saying "add seven pests or whatever" when specifically you can only make an even amount of pests because you make 2X pests.
You can't have spend 8 many on post infestation It can't be a even number xad
Same winrate you still give one a c and one a b-
Does 17lands get data from MTGO too, or only from beginner platform?
No MTGO data.
But it's pretty disengenuous to call Arena a beginner platform, especially when discussing people who sign up to have their data tracked. They are definitely not beginners, on the whole, but the exact obvious.
Their aesthetics and premise of this set and the previous one feel like they belong in an unset.
This format feels very bonus sheet bomb heavy. I just got Commandeered last game to try and draw 3 and surveil 3. Then i got path to exiled the previous game. I am really starting to not like this format....
Neither Commandeer nor Path to Exile are bombs. Path is a nice removal spell and Commandeer is actively bad.
Bad beats happen for sure, though.
Day 212 of requesting, now demanding, a name change of “Nizza Notes”
I really don't think it makes sense to give Fblthp an F, even the win rate is really bad. The F grade is supposed to be reserved for cards that are worse than a basic land, because at least the land makes mana, cards that do nothing in 95-100% of games. Cards like Font of Agonies. In my opinion, there's no point in having an F grade if you can put cards like that in the same category as a card that has reportedly won you some games.
… if the card loses you the game way more than it wins you the game I think it can be considered unplayable
@@jackvogel701 It's really not because you're not going to cut this for an 18th land if you have no other payables.
@@user-dg9qf7me8y fair enough. I think you have a different definition of F than most people tho
@@jackvogel701 That's why I think people's definition of F-grade is so flawed if it doesn't distinguish between cards that can win you the game and cards that are worse than a basic land 100% of the time.
@@user-dg9qf7me8y I don't like your definition at all, F is reserved for cards that heavily lower win rate, fblthp does that, so he is an F, comparing cards to basic lands is silly as basic lands beyond the 16-18 in your deck are obviously gonna reduce win chances, you compare cards to non-basics when grading as these grades are based on playing it in your non-land slots over other cards... if you have fblthp vs a D tier non-land you should pick the non-land is what the grade says. This applies to both deck building and draft, you shouldn't draft cards that make you lose more and saying that oh this cards better than a basic is silly because guess what... you get to draft 42 cards!!! you only need around 23-30 (based on lands) to build a deck so uh you have a whole range of cards to pick fblthp over before considering a basic land.