I just want to express my appreciation for the way these shootouts/reviews of yours provide these charts of quantitative scores on various sonic dimensions- granted, there's always a subjective quality to how one scores these things, but to me (and others, I'm sure) this approach (using these interval scales) provides more clarity in a relativistic sense. Keep up the great work!!
Great review! Very helpful as to potential upgrade decisions. Many thanks for that and also for saving me the money for the Rhino which is so expensive and awkward to get in Europe. Gladly sticking with what I already have. Keep it coming, please.
Great shootout, Thanks! 😎 I shot out 3 different copies - the new Rhino, a Greenie artisan & UK WWA (w/ Vertigo matrix) pressings.. It's tough to pick a winner, as I liked them all, but I guess I tended to prefer the Greenie overall, though on certain songs, the Rhino is king, bringing out a lot of much-needed clarity. I agree, the cymbals can be a bit fatiguing on the Rhino at times. The WWA also sounds great too, but I'd be pleased with _any_ of these really, if I could only have 1. Can't go wrong with any of the 3. I should probably redo my shootout though since thanks to you, I've upgraded my VM540ML by buying a RigB body and just got that installed... Unfortunately I haven't had much time to listen to it yet, but I'll definitely be doing so with the long holiday weekend. 🍻
Thanks for your great Reviews, love that noise or silence is important to you because it is most important to me too. Nobody brought me to more new bands (for me) then you 🙏
Also remember using the same master source but on better cutting equipment will enhance areas of the groove too which could have a beneficial effect, it’s just cut better now 🙂
Hello David Most of what you describe (bass definition, soundstage detail etc) is VTA alignments between pressings and your stylus. Your stylus seems sensitive(a good thing) to this all important parameter. What cartridge do you use? Can you adjust VTA on your arm? When the mastering engineers produced these pressings initially, I’m sure on their monitor tables they achieved similarly satisfying aural results that devolve to these divergent pressings in production with the cutter head styli and the vinyl weight along with our home systems’ individual styli aligning or not. Good job as always Thank you, Tony
VTA is important, but I don't think it matters enough here (at least between the OG pressings, as they're about the same thickness, but the Rhino being 180g or so, is noticeably thicker), as these pressings all sound quite different from each other. In my own shootout between 3 different copies (Rhino hifi, US Greenie, & UK WWA), I pretty much came to the same conclusion as David here.
@@R3TR0R4V3 record thickness is not the most important variable. The original cutter head styli define the VTA to the greatest degree. How this matches the mastering engineers monitor table’s stylus gives the final piece of this puzzle during the mastering process. How this aligns with your stylus mounted on your cantilever will ultimately define your final aural impression of the pressing being compared.
I have an unusually clean copy of the US WB green label that I picked up about 20 years ago. I always considered it one of the best sounding records I own, or have heard, period. Maybe I got lucky and it’s a hot stamper 😮
I’m fortunate to have owned a VG+ OG US green label Warner/Artisan for a few years. If I didn’t already own that, I’d be super happy with the Rhino HiFi I ordered. The OG, even with more background noise, just has more grit and power, IMO.
I definitely appreciate this video. Ive been trying to listen to all these comparison videos . Any chance you could link us to Jasons side by side comparison?
In the end, I appreciated my US Original Green Label over the new Rhino Hi-Fi. As you say...a touch more "mojo" and overall presence and "grit" in the mix for me than the very clean, accurate Rhino. I sold mine on last week for $125 on Discogs. Cheers
@@Universityofvinyl thanks Tim, I’m glad someone was glad to get the Rhino. I got two and will sell my sealed copy for sure. Keep up your great content!
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion I’m thinking about selling one of my two copies now. Surely in ten years they will be worth way more. Not sure if I should wait or not but I want to buy a box set
The Australian Fontana pressing will make your testicles tingle. All shootouts and audio comparisons should be done without knowing what's playing, knowing which pressing you're listening to introduces bias
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 need to lookup specs on AU version. Agree on keeping bias out by not knowing which copy is being played. Requires a partner in crime (so to speak).
Even though it means nothing to me, as i bought 1 copy and will never sell it… 5000 copies of a very important and popular album is nothing. I can only imagine what the Rhino hifi will be going for in a few years time, let alone 10 years from now. It will skyrocket in value no doubt. I’m so glad I got one and it sounds absolutely phenomenal to my ears.
I own multiple pressings of the UK 🇬🇧 USA 🇺🇸 pressings and of cause the allusive Rhino pressing. Sound wise the Rhino smacking the OG copies dynamic in the way the vinyl being dead silent Soundstage vastly improved overall quality of vocals & instruments being magnificent 👌 Although I must say my USA 🇺🇸 pressing has something other's don't possess. Rhino/Kevin Gray knocked it out the park the topend resolution with cleaner bass detailed vocals has tweaked this album in a way I like very much. Great break down btw David much the way I found this on my monster system @ 80db 😊🦻🇦🇺
My mint US OG “greenie” (Hate that word, lol), is the Only pressing I’ll ever need. Best sounding pressing imo. Rhino really didn’t need to do this one
@@thomaslytle5519 agree about the quality of the OG. That said, I don’t see a lot of OGs in solid condition in the wild so this did provide a path to a solid copy for $40-$50 when released.
Missed the Rhino but immediately found a great greeny on eBay. Ultrasonically cleaned it and it was fantastic. My later palm tree Warner bro. Black Sabbath don’t sound as good as my two greenies. Sounds like the first US press is more cohesive.
The Rhino Hi Sabbath are sold out many weeks ago. A US greeny artisan is hard to find for under $100 in VG+ condition. I just figured, why bother and how much do I like the album that I need to hunt for it- forget it. So for the average person this late review of Black Sabbath might make some think to act on FOMO (ltd edition vinyl) and buy while they can.
Have you checked out the 2010 Rhino release, using the original type green WB labels? The lacquers were cut by Ron McMasters at Capitol and pressed by Rainbo. It has some very positive reviews. I have my suspicions that the OG promo copy was pressed at Columbia, Santa Maria, so the vinyl should be quiet. It is marked ARTISAN. Do you realize that is where Kevin Gray cut his teeth? The green label OG may have been pressed at one of Columbia's other plants, which didn't use as high quality of vinyl as the CSM plant.
People like the green and vertigo because it is compressed. It is fatter. It has 2-3 less DR. The rhino hifi is about 13-14 (avg). The OGs are more in the 10-11 zone. This is why you guys like it! We all love compression when done right. But my go to will Rhino Hifi. I love the balance and clarity. But I love em both.
@@revelry1969 BS. I needledropped both my RHF, OG US, and compared with the unmastered flat transfer. All have the same DR within 1 point of error. I will say though, the flat transfer is the best sounding. The RHF has the bass reduced and the treble boosted while the OG US is a bit dark at times
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion totally! The unmastered version has the perfect dark sound while still not sounding muffled. No engineer should have EQd it. They should have cut straight to lacquer. Kevin Gray knows that but it seems like Rhino has prioritized clarity and audiophile sound like MoFi for their RHF series. A lot of the RHF releases have been treble boosted and bass reduced. Just look at The Captain and Me that RHF did. The Speakers Corner release that Kevin Gray cut a few years ago sounds way better than the new release that Kevin did for RHF
lim to 5000 is an insult to all record collectors .. thats not even enough für 1% of die hard sabbath fans .. just imagon how many people bought the record with out owning a turn tabel and there are people who just bought it to sell it on discogs ... ... this is pure disappointment
The whole point is that they are limited. Only 3 titles of RHF sold out so far and now they are wholesaling unsold titles out to independent record stores. I signed up for their newsletter and follow on Facebook, etc. and bought it when it came out and didn’t wait. I can’t tell you how many special additions or signed numbered or colored vinyl I have missed out on other artists that have sold out in MINUTES not Days!
Rhino HiFi series was established with this and it stayed available for one week. Steve Westman even gave notices when the stock was almost out. Guess buy now, cry later is try for every limited quantity release.
It's unfortunate they only made 5000 and lots of folks missed out, but if anyone really wants a copy, I'd pony up the cash & get one now before the prices go up even more. 🤷
Please no more vinyl comparisons on this album!!!!! Let’s all please move forward!!! It’s a metal album record that was recorded in 2 days and never meant as an audiophiles dream! Too much fretting about this in the VC
I don’t track how many others do these to decide on doing one. I was asked by several to take this on as it wasn’t in my wheelhouse generally. I agree it’s not an audiophile category candidate, but Rhino is merely High Fidelity :) can’t please everyone 101
I just want to express my appreciation for the way these shootouts/reviews of yours provide these charts of quantitative scores on various sonic dimensions- granted, there's always a subjective quality to how one scores these things, but to me (and others, I'm sure) this approach (using these interval scales) provides more clarity in a relativistic sense. Keep up the great work!!
@@maxhirsch7035 thanks Max, I am a bit ANALytical so I need to have a scale to feed my OCD :)
And the hits keep coming. Another masterpiece David. Thanks so much.
Thanks for your great review ✌️ so cool to see all those pressings together behind you there also
so glad rhino did this one for me and everyone else that wanted a quality copy that didn't have an early US press or vertigo rhino reasonable price!
Great review! Very helpful as to potential upgrade decisions. Many thanks for that and also for saving me the money for the Rhino which is so expensive and awkward to get in Europe. Gladly sticking with what I already have. Keep it coming, please.
Always glad to hear these efforts help in people’s decision making and spending money wisely! Thanks for your feedback :)
Great shootout, Thanks! 😎
I shot out 3 different copies - the new Rhino, a Greenie artisan & UK WWA (w/ Vertigo matrix) pressings.. It's tough to pick a winner, as I liked them all, but I guess I tended to prefer the Greenie overall, though on certain songs, the Rhino is king, bringing out a lot of much-needed clarity. I agree, the cymbals can be a bit fatiguing on the Rhino at times. The WWA also sounds great too, but I'd be pleased with _any_ of these really, if I could only have 1. Can't go wrong with any of the 3.
I should probably redo my shootout though since thanks to you, I've upgraded my VM540ML by buying a RigB body and just got that installed... Unfortunately I haven't had much time to listen to it yet, but I'll definitely be doing so with the long holiday weekend. 🍻
@@R3TR0R4V3 I have that sams cart with RigB as well *did a video on that a while back…
Thanks David, cool shootout
Thanks for your great Reviews, love that noise or silence is important to you because it is most important to me too. Nobody brought me to more new bands (for me) then you 🙏
Also remember using the same master source but on better cutting equipment will enhance areas of the groove too which could have a beneficial effect, it’s just cut better now 🙂
@@Chunksville true as well, great point
Hello David
Most of what you describe (bass definition, soundstage detail etc) is VTA alignments between pressings and your stylus. Your stylus seems sensitive(a good thing) to this all important parameter. What cartridge do you use? Can you adjust VTA on your arm?
When the mastering engineers produced these pressings initially, I’m sure on their monitor tables they achieved similarly satisfying aural results that devolve to these divergent pressings in production with the cutter head styli and the vinyl weight along with our home systems’ individual styli aligning or not.
Good job as always
Thank you,
Tony
VTA is important, but I don't think it matters enough here (at least between the OG pressings, as they're about the same thickness, but the Rhino being 180g or so, is noticeably thicker), as these pressings all sound quite different from each other.
In my own shootout between 3 different copies (Rhino hifi, US Greenie, & UK WWA), I pretty much came to the same conclusion as David here.
@@R3TR0R4V3 record thickness is not the most important variable. The original cutter head styli define the VTA to the greatest degree. How this matches the mastering engineers monitor table’s stylus gives the final piece of this puzzle during the mastering process. How this aligns with your stylus mounted on your cantilever will ultimately define your final aural impression of the pressing being compared.
Sober review. Rare in these days! Thanks!
@@jonathanthomas4722 thanks, those AA meetings are really helping! :)
Question for you. Which one would you be most likely to crank up on your system and jam?
US OG artisan green label
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion same
I have an unusually clean copy of the US WB green label that I picked up about 20 years ago. I always considered it one of the best sounding records I own, or have heard, period. Maybe I got lucky and it’s a hot stamper 😮
It is very solid for sure!!!
I’m fortunate to have owned a VG+ OG US green label Warner/Artisan for a few years. If I didn’t already own that, I’d be super happy with the Rhino HiFi I ordered. The OG, even with more background noise, just has more grit and power, IMO.
I get that 100%
I definitely appreciate this video. Ive been trying to listen to all these comparison videos . Any chance you could link us to Jasons side by side comparison?
Here ya go!
ua-cam.com/video/qFbZB_6_JD8/v-deo.htmlsi=QfyMHVFLJ5oqJ6l1
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion thank you
In the end, I appreciated my US Original Green Label over the new Rhino Hi-Fi. As you say...a touch more "mojo" and overall presence and "grit" in the mix for me than the very clean, accurate Rhino. I sold mine on last week for $125 on Discogs. Cheers
@@Universityofvinyl thanks Tim, I’m glad someone was glad to get the Rhino. I got two and will sell my sealed copy for sure. Keep up your great content!
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion I’m thinking about selling one of my two copies now. Surely in ten years they will be worth way more. Not sure if I should wait or not but I want to buy a box set
The Australian Fontana pressing will make your testicles tingle.
All shootouts and audio comparisons should be done without knowing what's playing, knowing which pressing you're listening to introduces bias
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 need to lookup specs on AU version. Agree on keeping bias out by not knowing which copy is being played. Requires a partner in crime (so to speak).
Even though it means nothing to me, as i bought 1 copy and will never sell it… 5000 copies of a very important and popular album is nothing. I can only imagine what the Rhino hifi will be going for in a few years time, let alone 10 years from now. It will skyrocket in value no doubt. I’m so glad I got one and it sounds absolutely phenomenal to my ears.
I have a "Greenie".
I own multiple pressings of the UK 🇬🇧 USA 🇺🇸 pressings and of cause the allusive Rhino pressing.
Sound wise the Rhino smacking the OG copies dynamic in the way the vinyl being dead silent
Soundstage vastly improved overall quality of vocals & instruments being magnificent 👌
Although I must say my USA 🇺🇸 pressing has something other's don't possess.
Rhino/Kevin Gray knocked it out the park the topend resolution with cleaner bass detailed vocals has tweaked this album in a way I like very much.
Great break down btw David much the way I found this on my monster system @ 80db 😊🦻🇦🇺
My mint US OG “greenie” (Hate that word, lol), is the Only pressing I’ll ever need. Best sounding pressing imo. Rhino really didn’t need to do this one
@@thomaslytle5519 agree about the quality of the OG. That said, I don’t see a lot of OGs in solid condition in the wild so this did provide a path to a solid copy for $40-$50 when released.
Missed the Rhino but immediately found a great greeny on eBay. Ultrasonically cleaned it and it was fantastic. My later palm tree Warner bro. Black Sabbath don’t sound as good as my two greenies.
Sounds like the first US press is more cohesive.
The Rhino Hi Sabbath are sold out many weeks ago. A US greeny artisan is hard to find for under $100 in VG+ condition. I just figured, why bother and how much do I like the album that I need to hunt for it- forget it. So for the average person this late review of Black Sabbath might make some think to act on FOMO (ltd edition vinyl) and buy while they can.
Have you checked out the 2010 Rhino release, using the original type green WB labels? The lacquers were cut by Ron McMasters at Capitol and pressed by Rainbo. It has some very positive reviews.
I have my suspicions that the OG promo copy was pressed at Columbia, Santa Maria, so the vinyl should be quiet. It is marked ARTISAN. Do you realize that is where Kevin Gray cut his teeth?
The green label OG may have been pressed at one of Columbia's other plants, which didn't use as high quality of vinyl as the CSM plant.
@@automatedelectronics6062 nice reminder about Kevin’s background! Don’t know about the McMaster cut. His work has been a mixed bag in my experience.
@@automatedelectronics6062 that Ron McMaster cut doesn’t sound that great imo. The Chris Bellman Rhinos were much better and all analog.
People like the green and vertigo because it is compressed. It is fatter. It has 2-3 less DR. The rhino hifi is about 13-14 (avg). The OGs are more in the 10-11 zone. This is why you guys like it! We all love compression when done right. But my go to will Rhino Hifi. I love the balance and clarity. But I love em both.
@@revelry1969 BS. I needledropped both my RHF, OG US, and compared with the unmastered flat transfer. All have the same DR within 1 point of error. I will say though, the flat transfer is the best sounding. The RHF has the bass reduced and the treble boosted while the OG US is a bit dark at times
@@SmallPersonRoo dark for OG, great word to fit the feel
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion totally! The unmastered version has the perfect dark sound while still not sounding muffled. No engineer should have EQd it. They should have cut straight to lacquer. Kevin Gray knows that but it seems like Rhino has prioritized clarity and audiophile sound like MoFi for their RHF series. A lot of the RHF releases have been treble boosted and bass reduced. Just look at The Captain and Me that RHF did. The Speakers Corner release that Kevin Gray cut a few years ago sounds way better than the new release that Kevin did for RHF
lim to 5000 is an insult to all record collectors .. thats not even enough für 1% of die hard sabbath fans .. just imagon how many people bought the record with out owning a turn tabel and there are people who just bought it to sell it on discogs ... ... this is pure disappointment
The whole point is that they are limited. Only 3 titles of RHF sold out so far and now they are wholesaling unsold titles out to independent record stores. I signed up for their newsletter and follow on Facebook, etc. and bought it when it came out and didn’t wait. I can’t tell you how many special additions or signed numbered or colored vinyl I have missed out on other artists that have sold out in MINUTES not Days!
Rhino HiFi series was established with this and it stayed available for one week. Steve Westman even gave notices when the stock was almost out. Guess buy now, cry later is try for every limited quantity release.
@@SafeAndSoundTXAudioExcursion awesome for people who go in and out the hospital the past weeks .. totaly my fault .. i had 102 degrees fever
It's unfortunate they only made 5000 and lots of folks missed out, but if anyone really wants a copy, I'd pony up the cash & get one now before the prices go up even more. 🤷
This artificial scarcity is the reason why I stepped away from this hobby recently, it's all about praying on people's FOMO to make a $
Please no more vinyl comparisons on this album!!!!! Let’s all please move forward!!! It’s a metal album record that was recorded in 2 days and never meant as an audiophiles dream! Too much fretting about this in the VC
I don’t track how many others do these to decide on doing one. I was asked by several to take this on as it wasn’t in my wheelhouse generally. I agree it’s not an audiophile category candidate, but Rhino is merely High Fidelity :) can’t please everyone 101
Definately not a metal album but heavy metal :)
such a good album.
Same goes for all Sabbath albums, they're not recorded very well.