Is EDH Fun? | Magic Mirror Podcast Episode 1
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- Опубліковано 15 гру 2024
- #mtg #thetrinketmage #trinketmage #magicthegathering #3/3elk
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We discuss our take on the edh format and talk some spoilers! Let us know if you like the podcast!
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While this was fun to listen to, could you guys include any cards you're talking about in the video?
I was really expecting to see them in that mirror in the middle and this is absolutely wasted real estate
That’s the plan going forward this was made on a faster turn around than I had wanted. As we improve the work flow there will be more things like that
@@thetrinketmage thank you! I don't mind listening to podcasts but there were some cards I didn't know and couldn't look up and was like "damn, this would have been perfect to show!"
Keep up the great work you two
@@thetrinketmage I personally think it's ok! I looked up some cards (when 3 elk was talking about his fractured reality / nine lives combo) but as a podcast its okay if you don't go crazy with editing. I personally value more conversation over presntation but absolutely understand people that would like to see the cards as you talk
@@thetrinketmagehello 😊 mage how are you
This is all I ever wanted in life. A 3/3 Elk and a Mage that tutors small artifacts coming together to debate the philosophy of a cardboard format.
This is the best comment ever.
I appreciate when cohosts have different opinions from one another, as it encourages the listener to think.
It's a four-player game. You're supposed to lose 75% of the time, so you have to find a way to have fun losing/be happy for others winning. Personally, I love losing if it's to some bonkers shenanigans or just really tight play.
Fully agree, at least for me the fun is split into how well my deck does it's thing, separate from whether or not it actually causes me to win, and also the puzzle of stopping everyone else's setup. I think the main cause of conflict in edh tables is between people who care more about the process of the game and those who care more about the outcome. Both are *completely* valid ways of enjoyment, but very tricky to actually sus out.
And this isn't even a EDH/cEDH split, I've seen people with horrid decks or unmodified precons get so up in arms because they *only* won 1 out of 3 games
Yeah, and thats the main reason i dislike commander, but i have to play it in order to play magic these days because its all that people play. I'm too competitive, i like winning. I dont mind losing, i just want to have it be 50/50
EDH didn't have to be a four player game. It can have as many players as you want. Even with normal decks and playing with several people, we'd play 7-8 player games back in the day.
I consider second place still winning and that's fun for me
For real. Be excited for your opponents when they do powerful stuff! It's fun and you get to learn!
I'm in that weird space where I'm a-ok with land destruction but get tilted when someone counters my ramp.
People just need to relax, it's a game, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Your life will go on.
I imagine the majority of salty moments are not from simply losing
@@gamingtogetherpodcast Exactly. Pretending like all ways people lose are equal is blatantly disingenuous.
One thing I'll say about the product increase and made for commander is I don't have a problem with them having this many products. But I feel like product quality and testing has diminished due to pushed product. It would be fine if it was balanced and designed well enough but instead we are getting half baked goods whether in story, design or untested problems like nadu
Going to precon design, WotC is working to make as many different decks / strategies viable in commander as possible. This both expands the format and improves the health of its metagame. Even just a few years ago deck archetypes like burn, energy, werewolves, etc. Were not viable to build in EDH.
I'm happy to play with random because I like a lot in EDH discovering new decks and strategies
I'm completely on board with mario party style commander cards. I've been looking to spice up my decks with what's already available, but the format could definitely use more. A cycle I've been looking at is the "join forces" cards.
So glad I finally started listening to this podcast.
Hey this is a great team up!! Both of you have a great insight into the game and I'm going to love listening to this while I clean house and at work!!
It was so fun listening to you guys, can't wait for the next episode
Yay! Very happy this podcast has started. I'm not sure how intentional this was in pre podcast discussion, but I liked how Elk took a more bearish approach to each topic while Mage countered with an optimistic one to balance the viewpoints and avoid a big echo chamber. Curious how much of that was planned (the "I'll take this stance if you take this one"). Either way I loved it.
Here is an example of where rule 0 conversations are good for matching decks. I have an Arcades, The Strategist deck. He's pretty solid battle cruiser with a lot of evasion and one sided board wipes. A dude at my LGS has a Maha that is currently unoptimized, but is getting there. Maha shuts my deck down. I have counters and removal (10 spot removal or counter and 5 board wipes), but a game where either I'm completely out or he doesn't have a commander isn't the most optimal or fun game for either of us. If we know we're gonna sit for more than one game, we'll essentially each play the first pick deck once.
The issue a lot of places have, my lgs included, is that people there don't care to rule 0 or only have their one deck. I can only put up with the same $2k ur dragon list so long
27:50 Something I always allow at tables is if someone plays a card people do not like that is common enough to come up like sol ring, rhystic, or dockside, Usually I reveal the card to everyone then exile the card and draw 1. The table usually is fine with this so long as nobody tries to abuse it. It also helps with that "go grab a basic" problem you mentioned.
This was good. It wasn't perfect, but it was good! I like that you two start out with a topic, that you directly disagree on. It made for a good listening experience, to have both sides of the argument. I also like that you let each other finish sentences, instead of jumping in. Solid first episode, hopefully number 1 of many!
Great first episode! Excited for more!
Listening to this now and smiling when you mentioned experimenting with cutting sol/crypt/dockside from all your decks 😂
Awesome podcast! The intro structure was a little jarring but the actual content of the video was really interesting.
Fantastic first episode. Its always a better discussion when the peoole involved have different takes on the subject.
And Trinket has a point where the responsibility of being able to deal with a problem falls on the opponents. And a lot of times people get salty if you are pretty much doing what thier cards say!
Case in point, I was hanging with a friend and a newcomer sits down and we greet, shuffle, no worries. The game goes on, no problems and my friend is getting a little ahead, then the newcomer plays a card that makes it so we can only attack the person to our right. Well, the newcomer is to the right and I'm playing a deck that gets value on atracks. So naturally I start attacking the newcomer. I dont have any removal or anything, so its literally all i can do until i get a helpful draw. Two turns in he scoops saying "Man, I heard about players at (our local game store). All tryhards."
Like... what did they expect? Resource build every game? Its not exactly Cataan. Still, just an ounce of communication and a willingness to strike deals makes aboit 90% of any saltiness wash out of a game and leads to more dynamic play.
the number one thing that gets me when playing with randoms at an lgs is when they think their deck is mid but they play super polarizing cards like clinging mists or glacial chasm where you need to draw the exact thing in your deck to deal with it or you just cant win the game. in the same vein when the deck is bad but has an infinite combo because that completely changes how your opponents have to view the deck.
Yes, this is the biggest thing for me. Some players have no idea how gaea's cradle cannot be in a low power deck, the cradle alone can scale out of control, and multiple other examples for this exist. My beef is that players don't consider how to build a fun deck to face, they know how to build a strong deck, and they know how to have fun when they're winning, that doesn't correlate to fun to face, especially if the same players complain whenever they don't draw their power cards, or complain because they don't get why they're being targeted
That's where I'm at, generally if there's an open rule zero talk I ask three things: tutors, combos, fast mana(outside of sol ring because assumed).
And if not, then okay. Skyclave Apparition is one of my all time favorite cards for a reason. Blows away any problematic perm 4 and under. So good.
@@pretty_fly_for_a_jeskai Yeah! I'm in a similar boat, if I am on combo, or running a strong removal package, then I feel fine, but it feels limiting because as soon as I am not on those, and instead on like, a timmy deck, it's outlcassed if I don't run those staples
@sebastianscopa3188 that's really fair, a lot of removal has been standardized. I take a lot of joy though in finding and running options that work specifically for the deck I'm running. Parting Gust in Bloomburrow is kind of a new staple for me over PtE/StP. Two white instant that exiles target nontoken creature, same as those mentioned, but with the gift mechanic so if you give someone a tapped 1/1 fish, the exiled creature comes back with a +1/+1 counter. Removal, blink and counter? Just for one more white? Damn son.
I'm running a real go wide type strategy with tokens right now, so cards like Perplexing Test that send all nontokens to hand basically double up as protection and one sided board wipe, a 50 cent card, and Hour of Reckoning often comes down as a 0-3 mana one sided board wipe as well if I'm not up against another token creature strategies. Protect the Negotiators is super great because when I'm most vulnerable with a wide board, I can counter stuff unless they pay 1 for every creature I have, and that can be impossible lol
Certain cards definitely get run more often than not, but a lot of staples are just so because people either aren't willing or can't afford to explore options that compliment their strategies when they're working, but aren't as universally reliable.
@@pretty_fly_for_a_jeskai Hell yes, excellent options for the deck you described! Running standard removal is fine and necessary to create more interesting game states, but it's also crucial that removal like everything else, also have synergy points like the ones you described! I have so much fun in the deckbuilding process finding these types of cards to go with a swords to plowshares for instance.
When it comes to the card advantage issue with removal, the answer is to just run more board wipes. Boardwipes when strategically deployed are a form of card advantage and bypass ward. There's literally no downside to one sided boardwipes either. Just wrath the board, rift, farewell, etc. And have wincons that can close out the game before your opponent does the same so the games don't drag on indefinitely.
Really good podcast. Good to hear the different perspectives
Great Podcast! Looking forward to more!
i’ve always said it’s communication that can make or break a persons enjoyment. If you discuss your deck beforehand and look for a group that’s similar to you or bring a friend it makes games much easier. Also part of that communication problem is that a lot of magic players are told things about the format that while are polite etiquette doesn’t mean other players can’t play it. i’ve heard the excuse to not blow up sol ring cause “they’ve never played it into arcane signet before or players upset at targeted land destruction on a strong land.
5:20 I'm very confused. EDH has always been a casual format?? Where is this take of "lately its become casual" from?
He worded it poorly, but what he meant is that the ceiling for power level has lowered significantly in recent years. Nowadays people complain if decks are stronger than precons. It's demented
@majinvegeta6364 Yeah it's interesting, I see people complain more about that online when I play Tabletop Simulator compared to physical paper Magic at my LGS. I'll play a deck I made online and get a mixed response sometimes (not too often but it happens) but if I played the same deck at the LGS's that I go to, I doubt many people would say much, as it's the power level I'm used to seeing.
Honestly i feel the opposite is true. With more people ditching 60 card formats and universe beyond targeting people from outside the community more competetive minded people play edh nowdays.
This would be fine normally but the 60 card crowd has a "close to cedh" mindset more often than not.
@majinvegeta6364 I do think he's saying that but I also think he's wrong on that point lol the most popular commanders today are all WAY more powerful that historically
32:03 Sounds like Trinket Mage would be a fun guy to cast Guided Passage against.
33:40 me passive aggressively flicking a relevant removal piece from my bulk across the table.
Great listening, can´t wait for more :)
34:52 as a Light-Paws player: pearl-ear, kor dancer (forgot the full name), and a few other cards that support enchantments while also benefitting from Auras.
You should talk about PreDH as a subformat.
I love finding a bizarre niche. I've got a Jon Irenicus deck that I'm trying to convert to a persist deck because that just feels weird and like it'll eat up removal and spit it back at the remover lol
That's like 1/2 the fun imo, the benifit of a casual format is you do get to build fun jank that utilize more niche mechanics and stuff to win.
At this point winning the game is an afterthought to playing my deck well because in most games there will be at least one situation on which my deck "does the thing" and either stops a huge play or slingshots ahead on the board because all the pieces just come together and that's just magical ngl
Fun is subjective and determined heavily by who you're playing with. A good game with 3 utter strangers can be hit or miss, but by large margins. I still play, but not nearly as often (scheduling is much of the reason, but still).
I had a Mogis deck, full control with Toxic Deluge, Dockside, Jokulhaups, etc. Now I have a Mogis deck with only enchantments and lands, and it is still control, but now is more fun to me.
I play EDH two nights a week with random people. I haven’t seen someone play expropriate in years. If you run a 9 drop and get enough mana to cast it, you should be highly rewarded.
"Once you've found people that agree with what [they] think is fun at a ... [table], will you have good games." I could not agree more. At a cEDH table, everyone already agrees what is fun. At a casual table, there are up to 4 differing opinions of fun. The "people need to just relax" crowd clearly do not care what you think or feel, and can go sweat Tergrid vs Baral at whatever table they want. But that's the entire point of the argument, if you want to sweat, great, announce it. If you want to pubstomp, don't be a coward, announce it.
Thats something that that Thomas guy Elk talked about doesnt seems to understand. Cos if he's going into casual games with randoms but not announcing, "Hey this deck is gonna combo at some point," he's clearly there to play at a more competitive level but doesnt wanna announce it.
10:20 If i spent more time shuffling than playing i am gonna be mad
As a longtime player, I'm with Trinket on the "re-unlocked" wonder thing.
Great work guys! Don't feel like you have to stay too on topic when the convo is flowing.
To your point on releases, I played a lot from 2015-2019 and am just recently getting back into MTG and holy cow, there are soo many new cards, it's pretty overwhelming. I wonder how that feels for a truely new player.
I'd like to hear more about Trinkets idea of splitting up Cedh and how that would work? What would the expanded/modified ban list look like for the casual format?
Omg I relate so much with all that Elk is saying. 90% of my magic experience now is brewing decks and testing over cockatrice because it's hard to play with people, overall magic players. We don't have that huge amount of cheaters on competitive mtg for no reason...
I don’t mind losing, it’s those games that pull out the Elesh Norn, Collector Ouphe, and Yasharn that grind me. Especially since my commander deck is a fairytale food deck with Greta.
Great video!
I would LOVE a RW Enchantment Commander, and a Mardu enchantment commander with more involvement than Ghen.
31:42 here’s the crux of the problem in edh and what leads to bad play experiences in my humble opinion. You say, to paraphrase, just say if you’re playing “low power, mid power, high power, or cEDH.” This is the problem. Players in general, but especially newer ones, DONT KNOW ABOUT POWER LEVELS. They don’t know how to agree on whether their deck is low,mid or high power. They complain about everything expensive or broken being cEDH without knowing anything about what that actually means. They may say they’re playing a high powered deck, but what they’re actually playing is dinosaurs that just happens to crush their friends bc they happen to not run any interaction. The problem isn’t necessarily players having a problem with edh, it’s everyone’s subjective opinion on their decks and everyone else’s decks power level that is the problem. I often play spelltable and i used to ask a number to gauge the power level. Now I ask, “how much fast mana are you running? “ if the answer is anything more than 2 excluding sol ring, i play my high power decks. But there also lies a bit of the problem. My opponents don’t know what fast mana is. They think it’s ramp. So they often start listing 2 mana rocks like signets and talismans, so i have to teach them. No, fast mana is anything that makes more mana than it cost to cast. Example sol ring produces 2 but costs 1. And that’s just one example but it makes sense that newer players and players who aren’t as enfranchised as us that watch podcasts or look up stuff on scryfall/edhrec are just unaware that these terms like fast mana and power levels exist. And that makes for salty games bc the inexperienced players who jumped into a game thinking their deck was high power ends up doing nothing all game. And “play more removal” is disingenuous when these same newer players think that a •Vindicate is a good removal spell. They think they’ll have time to cast their Austere Command when in fact the game ended on turn 6 just before it passed to them. That’s the dissonance Im talking about and that’s the dissonance that makes games less fun, for me included bc i often try to play somewhat higher power games and it feels bad to pub stomp when I thought i could get in a fairly matched game. I want a back and forth. I want interaction. I want to work for my win. I want to have fun and beating up 50 year old boomers or 20 year old kids that both have no clue what im doing is just not fun.
46:57 PREACH! Inamed Jhoira deck "Paradox Engine did nothing wrong" lol.
back up plans may be fragile but my very very casual flubs list has won through imprisoned in the moon twice because I draw into song of creation. Nothing like when they're expecting a negative reaction and you respond with "oh you're ramping me? Thanks!"
(I say very casual because some people don't believe it's possible to build flubs casual)
Imo as far as rule zero goes, I picked something up from nitpicking nerds that I like, where the three relevant questions for your deck are if it has infinite combos, tutors, or zero cost fast mana. Imo I think thats good, youre not really asking to name or ruling out specific cards, but it addresses some things that when included, give any deck a pretty massive face lift.
Seeing the commander someone is running is also part of rule zero, it can tell you a lot. I dont mind playing against stuff thats boring or annoying, because theres a lot of safisfaction in removing it. I actually run a handful of Transmute cards and treat them just as tutors most of the time because it cant really be interacted with, and theres no reveal involved. It really helps for consistency in getting the removal I need if I need it but any other utility too.
Overall, I've found that because I dont have a whole lot of decks, I'd rather play with randoms more often than not. I do like playing with my friends, but usually we play draft from a box of proxies, swap decks or do whatever.
hey 40 minutes in but really really enjoying the conversation between you two. looking forward to more content. I think there's SO much content behind the "ban list' ideas and what not. I'm not sure if either of you play pokemon singles - but there's a concept there that fits well into MTG i think - which is each pokemon falls into a TIER. I wonder if the same could not be part of magic for power levels. Ancient tomb is power level 9, dockside is power level 10, etc. etc. Would love to hear you guys go super deep here
Rule zero only works if every player is an active participant in it and abides by what is agreed upon. Sometimes it’s better to find likeminded people before just accepting an uncomfortable situation and having a bad experience with an otherwise great game.
I was down to not knowing what I play against, I mainly play in TTS, and its generally chill so I check nothing, but when a guy came with their Stax Pramikon, NO WINCON, deck, I had to start checking what I play against, at least so I know if I am gonna have to play for a 3 hour long match just to end up in a draw because of Divine Intervention......
Podcast!
I think a large part of the issue is insular playgroups and the sort of social dynamics it can become a breeding ground for, honestly. It's much easier to "get ideas above your station" and start _demanding_ that others adhere to your rule 0 ideas, when you mainly play with a small group. You won't have the social traction required to domineer others when they have options beyond "Obey or you don't get to play magic".
I, akin to mr Mage here, almost exclusively play in an LGS/pick-up-game environment, and people who spend a majority of their time in that environment tends to be a lot better about just playing the game as it is, and also about using rule 0 as a fun, opt-in addition to the game, rather than as a mace to crush anything and everything that you don't like.
I'm no psychologist, but my armchair analysis is that it's a skill you can learn much more easily, along with other social graces, from being in larger and more complex social environment. I don't think the issues mr. Elk are describing are a result of the format being unhealthy, but rather of closed groups being a social dynamic that is much more easy to control for those who are so inclined.
I think the format, at large, is in a good spot. Using my LGS as a metric, when I started going there, about 2 years ago, there were perhaps 12-16 players there, 20 once in a blue moon. Now, every week sees 70-100 players, and while a few drop off due to life and whatnot, there are always new faces turning up, many of them becoming regulars, and the community as a whole grows.
Sure, you can have opinions on the avalanche of new products Wizards subjects us to and wax lyrical about the good old days of only having five half-shitty precons per year, but I still would say that the format is in a good spot.
Most of the expend triggers were very tame and the high amount expend triggers do only go in big mana decks that spend all their mana on one turn.
I think when Wizards hears "there is too much product" they're really hearing "you're making too much stuff we want to buy" which doesnt sound like much of a complaint at all.
The real problem with too much product is that no-one knows what most of these cards are. The mechanics are too wordy, there is too many variants, you can't tell what something does by looking at it. "Back in the Day" the viable Commander pool was shallow, now we have dungeons, Morph variants, tokens and weird trigger conditions
Oh wow. Weekly upload. Nice
The thing with control in commander is that if you have enough control for 3 other players and everybody's doing it, you have 3 piece of interaction for every treat, games are then running for ever. It's either everybody is a bit responsible or one control per pod, otherwise it get old fast.
I'm a cEDH player mostly. It is really hard for me to play casual games without pissing people off. I don't know. I'm having a better time now, but I think it's more about the players than about the power level.
I am growing increasingly amused by the New Capenna commander cards being just blank in the minds of players everywhere. It happened to me, too. It's like a reverse Mandela Affect
It's funny, I play a lot more like Trinket Mage, where I am the table police and grind people out until I am the Raidboss, but I ended up agreeing more with 3/3 Elk. I've had a good chunk of games with randoms where they would just play The One Ring, Gaea's Cradle, Winter Orb, etc. at a casual table of Precons or something. Cards that are hard to interact with and create frustrating experiences, and that I wouldn't consider casual at all.
I'm also very timid around strangers initially, so it becomes difficult for me to start a rule 0 conversation. However, the games where no rule 0 talk, or very minimal/poor conversation takes place, are the worst to me. I don't advocate for Powerpoint presentations, but I at least want to know if you aim to win through fast and hard-to-interact-with combos, slower interactable combos, combat damage, or just want to play group hug, as I'm not one to appreciate a mismatch in power. It's these games where I either end up getting blown out turn 3, or become the archenemy and end up removing everyone's funny permanents and make them frustrated.
Mind you, this is with a deck that is chock full of interaction. 15 or so ways to blow up Enchantments/Artifacts/creatures or multiple of the type a lot of which are removal engines, 3 pieces of GY hate, single-target land hate, and so on. Running plenty of draw and ramp as well.
The thing I do agree with is that removal makes the game more fun, to an extent. ( 50 removal tribal probably isn't fun either ). Salubrious Snail made a great video about removal recently, and it was eye-opening to me. Removal engines are so good in EDH. It'll feel bad if you only load up on non-synergistic staple removal, as you'll run out of gas. That's really why I think people don't enjoy removal. They don't try enough to make it a synergistic pillar of their deck.
My ban list take is: There shouldn't be a ban list. Focusing it on CEDH though is a pretty good idea as well.
From my perspective, as someone who had trouble breaching EDH as a format, getting into it and finding your place in it has been a journey of giving up and learning to go with the flow. Disperate power-levels, social contracts, politics, the intentions of your pod's players, so much of the Commander experience is a force out of your control. Both for playing the game mechanically and handling the varying intentions of each player at the table, Commander is simply made of too many moving parts to truly wrangle. Once this finally sank in deep enough, I reached a sort of enlightenment. Just don't care. Not in terms of being interested in the game, but just not letting these things bother you. No more rule 0 for me. I don't want to try and tame the storm anymore, I'll just sit down and let it blow past me. Let the game just play out naturally and adjust accordingly. It was an attitude I developed when I played EDH with randos at a convention, this acceptance that there isn't really going to be any rhyme or reason to try and police our experience. Most of us were trying to travel light at the convention spot, so me for example, I only had the one deck. Since then, I've become much more happy with the format.
Kind of where I am. I'm playing a precon modded with bulk and singles a buck and under, and the vibes at my lgs are outside of tourney is to just sit down and play the game. I run a shitload of removal so usually I can answer stuff and if I can't, usually someone else can, and if nobody can, cool. Let's keep playing and move to the next one
Going back and watching this after... events... has largely vindicated my feelings about the current discourse. People are trying to do revisionist history as if prior to the fallout from the bannings and the relinquishing of EDH to WotC the general consensus wasn't "What the fuck is the RC even doing with the banlist?" Its like a bizarre form of being unable to speak ill of the dead.
the point of edh was to put cards that don't belong together... together. Now most releases are like Yu-Gi-Oh! sets where everything is pre made/designed for you within an "archtype."
I think for me to enjoy commander like I used to I would have to play old cube. However I don't have that type of money.
There are tons of things in this podcast that ill react to in my own video. But i think the biggest one id like to bring up is the lack of defining what casual is.
So many people say "social format" or "casual" and i dont really think that says anything on what edh is. Or noone is clarifying.
i have been playing for only 6 months. i play with a theme i like and make it better (mirko with surveil). I play with interaction pieces even IF i dont use blue or black decks. i play to win but i dont sacrifice my theme to do it by adding stuff like thassas oracle.... but i still play to win.
What am i?
am i a casual cause i dont give up my theme to win? am i competetive because i deckbuild to have answers and things to go against players?
An answer would be nice. But its also this question thatsTHE BIG PROBLEM for edh.
So many people will bring up not making a stronger banlist, or "why are you getting mad fir certain cards exist..." and other reasonings simply because "its not a competetive format"
but im sorry. imma just say its just not true. Noone is only using beatsticks in decks. Noone is using NO REMOVAL at all. Noone is NOT CHOOSING to run powerful cards all the time.
However you wanna slice it. You cant say its not competetive. An example can be brawl from Super Smash Bros. No matter how many things you add to make things be more "casual" a person will hone in on a skill. and make something casual... into a competetive scene. Even if they dont have things like thassas oracle to do it.
Other TCGS have always had a banlist... and casuals that perform the best even in competetive enviornments. in yugioh tier 2 and 3 deck people will go to tourneys and still run handtraps.
its the same in edh. To say that Commander is a casual format... to me... is just wrong. Cause players still make it competetive even with the lack of changes.
I dont need fast mana like dockside or mana crypt to be competetive in this format. Cheap cards like dress down and Reigns of power can get me wins even with the best decks around.
So maybe its a hot take. But Edh isnt a casual format.
P.S. Make a stronger banlist that actually makes sense. If Coalition Victory is banned.... Thassas Oracle should be banned. I dont wanna get into it. But actually have a design goal for the banlist cause it's just random.
Rule 0 can only get better with a stronger banlist
I've been playing Magic for 9 years now, and I can tell you Commander is THE most casual format in ANY trading card game. You're meant to sit down, play and have fun. There's a reason cEDH exists, because there's already a casual counterpart to it. The main problem is that Wizards and the rules committee don't know what the hell they're doing with the format and need to fix the ban list. All they're doing is pumping an obscene amount of cards into the format.
Lmaoo do something when you do something. I couldn't figure out why I thought expend was so boring but you hit the nail on the coffin.
CONTROL MAGIC MENTIONED RAAHHHHH
If you play against the light "upgraded" squirrel precon you are going to probably change your mind around it. It is a kill it asap, prepare to play board wipe after board wipe, or stax on attack to prevent the deck from killing you. Honestly, that deck is not a precon when compared with a 2021 one. People don't like board wipes or stax but the precons are leading in that direction.
By the way, playing with random people or a wide range of people does offer plenty of benefits: no arm race, prepare for the unknown, learn and adapt as you go. When you play the same group and the same decks it became boring unless there are changes (without starting arm race).
OMG Where did the idea that anything that isn't a theme deck is considered cEDH come from?
Babe ! Trinket and Kenriths posted!
Hey nice video ! Haha it seems like Elk has many issues with commander he needed to get out before going further x)
I would indeed like to know more about you consider as "good ideas for a commander deck". You said removal, goad, and political cards were how you made fun decks in the format ? I am interested in this thought being expanded upon way deeper.
Have a nice day, from France
b/w eerie card teased!
for both of you who wonder why someone would get salty in a casual commander game, i guess there are a huge variety of reasons, and it seems a bit bad how you would just invalidate when a player gets upset just because "its a casual commander game" as if that's justification to be a douchebag, yes, there are people who take it waaay more personal than they should, but just being a prick to everybody who gets salty isn't nice either
i can speak for myself, first i can say, losing by itself is not the issue
as long i can participate and do something significant on the table i am fine with losing and i will enjoy the game, it will make me extra happy if my deck can "do the thing" even if i lose
i admitedly get salty when i am denied of such participation, when everyone clearly is playing things beyond what the fun deck i brought can do, like "oh right, i can't play my fun deck with you guys because you don't let me even play"
This. I tell people if you're gonna play Drannith Magistrate and other spells that prevent me from playing my Commander or most of my deck for that matter in casual, then I wasted my time driving to my LGS
That removal video sounds interesting. I also think it sucks playing removal in EDH.
i feel like I can neever really have fun, I stress too much about other people not enjoying the game so I end up limiting myself a lot when playing and building decks. The only time where I feel like I can play is in tournaments where we have all accepted that the goal is to win.
I have only been playing since about March and i very much share Elks opinion on casual commander pods with randoms. The whining in casual pods is insufferable. I was pushed into playing CEDH within like 2 months of playing because i noticed the CEDH table at my LGS people would celebrate when some wild turn 3 win would go off or laugh hysterically when a grindy game finally got ended by some janky 3rd wincon in the morph players Kadina deck.
My first deck was Caesar from the fallout precons which i built to stupid high power fringe CEDH. I had a game where all 3 players were genuinely angry at me for winning with a breath of fury combat loop on like turn 8 or 9 which was only possible because the eldrazzi monument went unanswered for the last 3 rotations and gave my board flying for the breath tokens tocget through. They claimed that this deck was CEDH because of this, even though the interaction in CEDH pods absolutely wiped the floors with this caesar brew.
I ended up building Ratadrabik an Krrick and never looked back at the random casuals. Ill only play high mid and low power with my non LGS pods now.
It’s interesting how your different ways of play changed your opinion on the current state of the format.
I play with friends in the garage and I play as close to CEDH as I can get at a LGS. I still get salty about a couple of things. People holding grudges from game to game will get me to walk away pretty quick. "You rocked us last game so I am going to just focus you this entire game no matter what." ok I got better things to do with my time now cya. The other is beating down the deck that got off to a rough start. I know you have a video about killing a target when you can but if I am going to have to sit here for an hour while you three play because I just couldn't get anything going on then I am going to go ahead and go home too.
I’m lucky enough that my LGS has a robust cEDH scene and I nearly always play cEDH. I find it so odd that I feel bad when winning a casual game (yes with a casual deck). It’s seems so warpingly odd to have a format that makes winning be seen essentially as a bad thing.
on the salt talk, I also don't really get upset with whatever you are doing as long as the decks powerlevels are kinda close, like yeah you get to turn 2 combo kill us but please change the deck we want a more even playfield, but mill me on turn 8? cool. combo on turn 8? didn't draw the removal gg, and so on.
I really dislike is the people that get salty over targeting, playing more staxier pieces or trying to win the game, the point of the game is to win, its like getting uber salty over being targeted with the robber in catan when you are ahead or getting killed in king of tokyo, the game can be as casual as you want but at the end of the day the objective is still to win the game
If I’m at a table and three people are playing quirky niche decks I’m having a lot more fun losing to them than another faux cedh deck.
There’s an emergence in what every multiplayer game has a problem with. People who would rather have fun beating more casual players who aren’t looking for that kind of game then playing at their decks power level.
When I am doing post game analysis on my decks im thinking, well I lost but I didn’t want to lose in that way. I need more of ramp or more card draw or interaction so I don’t lose the same way in the future. If I lose by a way that i prefer, I’ll leave it as is. I just don’t care about losing in a fun way. And I want to play with people who also think that way.
You talked about the ban list in this episode but what do you think of the idea going around that commander needs a "Banned as Commander" list?
I don't get why there's a mirror in the middle 😅
Personally.
Casual commander at most spots, even at home tables, has just become CEDH LITE. One of most frustrating things about casual now is commander misrepresentation.
CEDH doesnt need a commander for synergy, it just needs access to colours. if someone has red in the colours, you automatically know what 15 cards are in the deck. same with all the other colours. The commanders dont matter anymore, its just running staples of the colours with the basic artifact package and trying to win on turn 3.
Its gotten to the point where id much rather play precons this way everyone is at least handcuffed by the same thing and is at the same power level
Really nice vibe.
EDH is fun if you play with people with the same philosophy as you whether that be in deckbuilding or playing. However, I feel like WOTC is fighting that a touch with the power of some of the precons that have come out lately. I literally haven't built a deck as powerful as something like the Dogmeat, Missy, or Mothman precons.
I've do not like the Duskmourn theme at all, but I still hope there's a new toy or two for Anikthea, and not just an Izzet mechanic.
The powerlevel difference is annoying for me when someone says playing lower power and I pull out Belakor 30+ 6cmc Demons no infinites only insta win is liliana contract deck and then other players complain my deck is too powerful and I proceed to lose to their infinite combo or get out valued by their ramping drawing card commander. Like the issue is that some players just don't understand what makes a deck strong so they get salty about power level but only because they don't understand. It's often randoms will complain that your deck is too strong if it has the possibility of winning.
Randoms also feed rhystics or expropiate just unintentional kingmaking. I had a player cast a wheel effect when I had a Tergrid in play and basically won the game on the spot, like thanks for the win but, the game is just over now and you effectively conceded the game for the 2 other players.
I miss Paradox Engine every day.
As a permissions player, what do you think about Eluge? I recently brewed a super budget tempo control deck with him and he's able to compete with my friends' decks which have individual cards worth triple the entire deck, and he just feels amazing for the control playstyle
Is EDH Fun? I hope cause I just bought 3 commander decks yesterday to learn and play with friends
Combos are fine unless you're tutoring up the combo pieces. Drawing into them is fine in my eyes, but tutor-tutor-tutor-win defeats the whole purpose of a 100-card singleton format. If I wanted to race-to-combo, I would dump waaaaaaay to much money into rocks and lands and find some proper cEDH tables to play.
One of the people in my pod likes to play just big beefy creatures and swing. His typical turn is land, artifact or creature, combat, pass. I tend to play more aristocrats kind of decks where the board starts to combo with itself the more things I have. But the moment I do more than land creature combat he just starts complaining about how long my turns going to take and how I’m obviously the threat (regardless if I am or not) and even rage quit once over 5 minutes of my things activating abilities and recurring things from the graveyard and started yelling about how I’m taking too long just to sit and watch and complain while not being part of the game. I don’t like big creature beat down. I like building decks that have more synergy the more I develop a board but he really loses it any time I play more than 3 cards a turn. (The decks I’m playing aren’t cedh level. They’re strong but maybe an 8 at best)
Edh should just be a casual social thing you drink to with your friends. There is too much variation in power and card pool to play with random people and the goal is not clear. You want to win, but you can’t win too fast, and need to do it without upsetting everyone else…
difference between 10 card weird obscure combo vs, dockside looped
Well some parts of this episode have aged well "RC has been very relaxed on banning".
Not gonna lie, @33elk sound like a person which I would not want to have at my pod
This may be a bit early as it’s only Episode 1 of the podcast but do you think you’d ever invite other EDH UA-camrs come on the podcast for an episode?
I'm not gonna lie, I've never had a problem with Rhystic Study. Kinda taking a line out of TTM's book, run remove it if you don't like it? But again I've never been against Rhystic and I play at alot of different power levels. 🤷
For real, rule zero really takes the seasoning out of a meal 😬 people should be able to play what they wish and agree to disagree on what’s the best way to win the game
Wow podcast!
People who play draw-go counterspell decks don't get to complain about commander players being salty and how it's "a mental barrier they need to get past." Every time Trinket Mage says this, the words mean nothing. It just sounds like a desperate "Come on guise, I just want to make everyone miserable! Why are you all so miserable!?"