As an autistic person, I am so fucking offended by the implication that my autism would make me liable to ignore someone's 'no' at the expense of their comfort. Don't use your autism as an excuse for being a shitty person. I used to be a champion of Gaiman and I'm so fucking disappointed.
I'm glad to hear this. A person I thought was a friend was taking advantages of myself and others, claiming their autism as reason. It was really upsetting, and a few of the victimized people were also on the spectrum and said it was a BS excuse.
Go damnit every fucking time, every godamn time really, every time, as an autistic person it is so fucking annoying to me primarily because I really do struggle majorly with boundaries, they are difficult they really are they are contradictory and people “communicate” them by not telling them to you but in no world does that make this kind of thing ok, I get fucking up boundaries, I do it constantly, I will over share or do something else that oversteps boundaries but never ever the physical ones, when I was younger I would hug people a lot without asking and someone directly told me that it made them uncomfortable so I started asking people of it was ok and that was that (mind you I was ten and Neil is an old man which makes it worse) physical boundaries aren’t hard to obey, they aren’t like social boundaries which are a lot easier to break without knowing them, physical boundaries have a very easy default which is to not touch people without asking. Furthermore, if someone communicates explicitly a boundary quite literally nothing outside of forgetfulness or intention will cause someone to break a boundary that they have been explicitly communicated to about, autism does not make you harass people or stalk people or sa people or anything like that. I’m sorry if this came off as aggressive I have just heard this excuse too many times
@@aazhie Even if they didn't realise they were taking advantage at first, it doesn't make it okay. Once you're told that this behaviour is unacceptable, it's on you to take that on board and change
@cadno3423 that is exactly what my friends told me, and I agree. I was uncertain at first because I tend to self doubt my interpretations of what people say vs what they do. I appreciate the confirmation!
Absolutely. Male autistic men do not get a pass for this - but people (and sometimes parents) make excuses for them instead of teaching them. It is absolutely not an excuse.
Omfg the autism thing makes me furious. My spouse is autistic an when we had our first kiss, you know what they did? They said: "I'd really like to kiss you." And I said: "I really want to kiss you too." It's not hard!!!!!!! But you know what serial abusers like to do? Blame their actions on some arbitrary thing out of their control to avoid accountability. Ughhhh. And let's not baby this man any longer. After DECADES of pulking this bs he knows his own patterns, he's self aware enough. On the bright side, to get through this I played with my kitty for an hour so perhaps he'll leave me alone long enough so I can cook without him jumping onto the stove for once.
Same. My spouse is autistic and consistently asks me if things are ok to this day. We've been married for years and they still like to check just in case. They have a history of people making them uncomfortable/crossing boundaries so they're very careful about that with others because they don't want anyone to be uncomfortable or feel bad.
When I heard that, it made me yell out loud. "But you know what serial abusers like to do? Blame their actions on some arbitrary thing out of their control to avoid accountability." YUP. My mother had a lot of mental health issues, and she would use them as a way of not having to take the blame for bad things she did. It played a heavy role in our relationship falling apart.
@@beccastell6439 I don't think it's fair to say that most survivors are autistic. Although it seems the inverse is true - as far as I'm aware, most autistic AFAB's are survivors (I'm unsure about stats on NB or AMAB autistic people). Is there somewhere that has found most survivors are autistic?
It's wilde that he decided to use autism as an excuse. But people do that. I remember having a friend (only been friends for 6 month then we went our separate ways) who used to be really rude towards me (such as looking at a painting of my friend that I have painted 10 years ago and saying "I've seen better art than this") and blamed that on adhd.
After watching the whole thing I’m really saddened by the situation. I am autistic. When I was a teen I also struggled with social cues especially in more spicy situations and I found myself in situations that were problematic, especially when I wasn’t sure how to say no, how to say yes, how to ask for explicit, vehement consent. The difference is that I was FIFTEEN, not fifty. I really dislike the insinuation that his autism is being used in ANY WAY to excuse what is starting to look like a long term pattern of behaviour.
Autism is more likely to make us targets for s*xual ab*se and coercion, yes, it's a disgusting act to try to use neurodivergence as a shield to deflect responsibility for one's actions 🤢
Yep, I was only diagnosed with autism in my 20s, but my whole life, I've known I struggle with social cues and so compensate the opposite way, I need obvious and enthusiastic consent
This is what really got me. Like it could be an explanation but it's not an excuse and like it's such a deflection and it's insulting too. It throws autism into such a bad light. Like, what the hell dude?! This whole situation is miserable.
One thing this has taught me is that you will NEVER know someone from their art alone; yes, it can tell you about the inner-most world of a person, but if you do not know them in person (how they are with friends and family), someone's art, as revealing as it may be, is always going to be delivered through lenses and by the artist. And if you're a bad person, you have every incentive to present your inner world as sympathetically as possible; no amount of artistic vision can a person not be a social creature
What made Gaiman especially insidous is that his fans could never even really try to just know him from his art alone, because he was so eager to engage with the fans on social media, especially on Tumblr, where any interactions with celebrities would feel particularly relatable
I've known far too many people whose art revealed absolutely nothing about them outside of them knowing what will net them recognition within specific niche groups.
1:32:50 - 1:33:23 “There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’ ‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’ ‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.” ― Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
OK but at what point does "doesn't intend deliberate harm, just doesn't care" BECOME deliberate harm BECAUSE he doesn't care? I don't think someone as obviously intelligent as Gaiman could possibly assume, for 40+ years, that he has NEVER inflicted any harm in any of these encounters. And yet he has continued to commit them. At this point, to me, that IS deliberate harm.
I think the only way intent impacts something like this is the scale of evil. Apathy is still evil, it's just not malice. It's like being Darth vader vs emporer Palpatine. Still evil, still hurt so many people that he shouldn't be forgiven just because he saved his son. He's just not laughing while he does it.
One strike at most after it's been clearly explained in good faith. It is difficult, I think. I always want to leave open the possibility that somebody was simply selfish, I guess, or oblivious, or whatever. Particularly with a first or only offense, or if they're still young and/or inexperienced. That it's possible that somebody can cross boundaries without knowing. Even that it's possible for somebody to cross boundaries and be aware they're crossing boundaries, but still not be actively malicious, not actually want to hurt people, just kind of be ignoring the possibility. I honestly don't know if I'm being too naive, but I want it to be true. Regardless, I don't think any of that applies here.
I would say it’s not deliberate bc it’s not someone going “I’m going to go and cause harm to these people”. Instead, it’s someone saying “I do not care if I cause harm as long as I find gratification of some kind”. I would say that can be more damning than deliberate harm. Someone who causes deliberate harm is predictable. Those around them know when they’re dangerous and can take steps to protect themselves. Someone who just doesn’t care if they leave harm in their wake are more unpredictable and often leave those around them blindsided. It also makes the harm they cause in some ways more dehumanizing bc their victims are a means to an end.
It really hurts to see Neil Gaiman’s allegations and his behaviors come to light. I wasn’t a big consumer of his books, but I LOVED Coraline, both the book and the film. And he was best friends and co-writers with Terry Pratchett, my favorite fantasy author of all time, and such a kind and charitable human being that we lost far too soon. Neil Gaiman, as a fellow autistic person, you broke my heart. He should know better than to do what he did.
1:34:42 I am autistic, so I will say what Vera is perhaps unwilling to say explicitly: f**k him for saying that. Autism is a diagnosis, not a license. If you have a visual impairment, you don’t drive a vehicle without corrective lenses; if you have a social impairment, you don’t act as if you don’t in this kind of situation. “Look, I’m bad at social cues. I’m feeling this; are you interested as well?” is not a difficult thing to say. Whether or not you’re neurodivergent, the standard is always an *enthusiastic* *consent*. Period. End of story.
I'm autistic and the last person I was talking to is, and FOR THAT REASON we were both constantly checking in with each other and asking for consent and feedback. Driving without glasses is a great analogy.
I’ve struggled with getting to terms with my autism diagnosis, in my early 20s when I learned it could be the case… My parents had struggled to admit it, I’ve made mistakes. The thing is? I’m trying to be better… I know that I should strive to be a better person every day, more than I was before; I analyse myself far more critically and think my actions out before acting on them. That includes what I say, too… It’s hard, but I could not forgive myself if I didn’t.
Considering the nature of Gaiman's award-winning profound writing, he might not be eligible for "didn't understand the power dynamics" defence. A similar, but much worse case, is Thomas Jefferson (writing volumes on rights and liberty, while doing everything he was proven to do).
Super weird to say "if he was conscious of the power dynamic". There is this tendency to verbally transform men into bumbling babies in situations like these. He used triangulation to coerce sexual contact from his housesitter, that doesn't just kinda happen by accident, it is gross and abusive.
Re Caroline: I think the part where she was asleep in bed and woke up to him having put her hand on his penis changes what you're saying. She could not AT ALL consent to that while also and that takes it from "circumstantial" to "predatory"
As someone whose autism leads her to be prone to Amelia Bedelia levels of misunderstanding, you learn to adapt by discussing and clarifying EVERYTHING. To not do that at his age is a willful asshole move :/ Sigh. I stopped holding authors up as gods ages ago, but this still stings.
Right? People around me get so, *so* annoyed by me asking fifty million questions to clarify something that they think is super obvious, and conveniently forget all that the moment I don't clarify something and it ends up in a big misunderstanding. I was raised and socialised as a girl, and present mostly femme now too, so I wonder how much that has contributed to things, because girls and women aren't usually given the benefit of the doubt (especially if the misunderstanding is a social thing) whereas a lot of the autistic boys and men I know seem to get a pass, because how could they possibly know better 🙄
I've gotta disagree. Threatening a single mother with homelessness if she doesn't sleep with you is extremely predatory. It wasn't her idea to sleep with him.He sought it out. He suggested it. He strong-armed her into it. All of it reads as extremely manipulative and premeditated. Also mentioning the lawyer is useful information. If I heard a celebrity hired Johnny Depp's lawyer for a case, that tells me a lot about the tactics and approach a theoretical celebrity is using.
I think this is a semantic issue rather than an actual difference in opinion. Vera was quite clear that threatening her house for sex is very very bad.
As the above commentor said, Vera said it was "opportunistic" in the way that she just so happened to be single after they had made the housing deal with her. He didn't arrange a master plan to put her in a position where she would be single and relying on him for housing. The video very clearly states that this is still a manipulative and coercive thing to do, it's just a different M.O. than the other cases.
I love that you added that comment about the difference between masking and respecting others. I'm autistic, and I absolutely hate it when people (almost always men) use that as an excuse to trample over other people's boundaries. If someone knows they have a hard time reading non-verbal cues, then they need to take things slow and verbally check that the other person is okay. The only reason they wouldn't do that is that they care more about their own pleasure than the well-being of others.
I have autism and I think I'm rather extra careful, I could never imagine stepping boundaries like this but then I'm a woman. He probably was thinking with the thing between his legs rather than his brain.
The (almost always men) and (usually men) parenthetical I see in this and other comments remind me of an inverse Sommerton "usually straight white women" opinion. Probably has more truth to it as well, making it truly inverse.
So, there used to be a way women got the word out on creeps. Often it was "gossip" & sometimes literally a warning scribbled on the back of a restroom stall door about a specific guy. SA is such a messy thing legally speaking. In many people's minds actual r@pe is something violent that happens between strangers at knife or gun point. But that's not the reality of SA, sexual harrassment & predatory behavior. You can feel coerced without a literal gun to your head (which is the case if the abuser holds any type of power or authority over you like a teacher, employer, pastor, doctor, etc or is just bigger than you) There is also what's lovingly referred to as Date Grape. The guy (or girl) you're on a date with or just hanging with just doesn't stop when asked. The person who was DR'd will be questioned about *their* choices to be alone with the person, how much they had to drink, what they wore, were they leading the person on, etc. And people will try to defend the DRpist as not knowing any better, being too drunk, not understanding social clues, etc. It really is an emotionally charged issue & hard to prove in court since it's an intimate act between 2 people with no witnesses. If you're in a relationship with a creep & they violate your consent, your character will be under scrutiny if you lodge any kind of formal complaint or go public. It's sad that so many people (usually men but not always) just shrug it off as post coital regrets. No, that's not it. Especially if the creep is a repeat offender & shows a pattern of "not reading social clues" or acting inappropriately with nannies & other employees. Idk if there is anything that can really be done legally here but getting the word out & going public might save the next person who comes into an abuser's orbit some grief. Forewarned is forearmed. It isn't about getting someone cancelled, it's about stopping abusive behavior & warning potential victims. Not sure why that's so hard for some people to understand...
It is messy, it's even worse for men who don't consent to women. Men feel pressured into having sex too, women with options have power in relationships as they can leave and find someone else. We don't label that as predatory or manipulative.
@@phill6859 of course cis men get pressured into sex without their consent. It is neither worse nor better than what any other person of any identity may experience without their consent. However, I'm going to check your comment because a "woman w options" is not labeled as predatory bc that inherently is not assault. People can be as actively sexual as they want with as many consenting partners as they want regardless of gender
The “just cite your source” whiteboard reveal mirrors my own feelings on the matter. I’m glad my TikTok tip could bring you (at least minimal) closure on the question. Thanks for making a part 2.
@@CouncilofGeeksif you decide to do a part 3 (or even if you don’t & just want to know the impact of parts 1 & 2) I suspect that Tortise has listened to this video. In the episode that came out today, they kind-of-sort-of acknowledge the source of NG’s account in the last like 3 minutes of the podcast, and they drop a tidbit that they reached out to him for comment in April 2024. In the absence of you bringing the issue to so much light, I don’t think they would have been as transparent. (Also: They also do a better job at providing timeline context to Claire’s account that the therapy podcast probably wasn’t in a position to do with a host who is a therapist rather than a journalist.) Taken altogether, though, I don’t think my conclusions about the whole situation change based on episode 6.
I'm heartbroken that someone whose words have influenced me deeply for many years, could just be another cleverly disguised wolf. I was happy when I heard he's openly autistic, because we really need role models to counter the negative stereotypes in media. Now, after hearing what he said to Claire, I just want to scream. Does he know about the statistics about how common it is for us autistics to be victims of SA, and that it's NOT supported in any studies that autistics are more likely to commit SA? Will the rest of the world know? It seems increasingly likely he knows what he's done is wrong. It's impossible he didn't hear us during and after metoo, and somehow he missed the message. Badly. I thought he understood us. It hurts so bad that he doesn't. If any of the empathy I've found in this works is founded in truth, he knows goddamned well how important it is that he uses it now and come forward to face the truth and open up a conversation to prevent others from falling into these traps. But of course he won't. He's gonna hide behind his autism and lawyers and cause even further harm. And so I am saying farewell to his works, past and future, I won't be able to stomach it.
Caroline's case began in 2017, so if the daughters are now around the ages K and Scarlett were Gaiman attacked them, they would have been in their teens at most. And the podcast does actually specifically say "Caroline understood this to be a clear reference to the trade where she’d be allowed to stay in the house, with her three daughters, as long as she provided Neil Gaiman with sex on demand."
I deeply appreciate your work on this, Vera. I've only recently come to understand myself as AuDHD at the ripe young age of 47. Part of the unmasking has been to realise times that I was sexually assaulted because my consent wasn't sought or given. I genuinely feel that understanding Enthusiastic Consent, and replacing the old-school "No means No" with "Only Yes means Yes" is especially important for the neurodivergent community. Having had my sex ed (such as it was!) in the 80s and 90s,, I can attest to how lacking (aka absent) any discourse on consent was. I feel like I have so much re-learning to do, but I'm determined to do it. As ever, I am deeply moved when you tell us we are beautiful, valid and loved. You are too, Vera.
I somewhat understand but personally I don't think of Gaiman when I watch Coraline or read The Sandman comics. They'll always be my favorite stories, even if flawed. He's the author, sure, but that's about it.
@@twistedelegance_ That's how I see the Potter stuff. Rowlemort may be the original author but that's all she is to me as I came into the franchise with the films. I don't own the books and likely never will. I'm quite happy with the films and the Stephen Fry audiobooks. So to me the creators are the directors, cast and everyone else. She played her part of course but it was a relatively small part. I haven't watched this video yet, so I don't know how I'll feel but if it's just more allegations and no proof, or even credible evidence, I think I'll still be okay with Gaiman. If the non-consesual claims turn out to be true, then it will be a different matter.
@@Elwaves2925I would not say that the creator of the entire world and the writer of all the books which the movies are based on is a "relatively small part". the universe of Harry Potter, the characters, the plot, none of it would exist without her writing it first. and yes, she's a horrible person and I would love to be able to just say that I could separate her art from her but every time I see my favorite series of all time I get nauseous because all I can think about is the disgusting hate she's spreading and I can't spend money on any of it because I can't fund her hate. she's fundamentally ruined her legacy and for me personally, ruined one of my favorite series of all time. I just can't enjoy any of it the same way any more. it's impossible. so no, she didn't play a "small part", she played the literal biggest part out of anyone. without her it wouldn't even exist and no audiobook could be created and no movies could be adapted.
I spent a lot of 2024 really getting into his work, declaring him my new favorite author. He really inspired me this year. It’s upsetting to hear that I spent that time and energy on someone who didn’t deserve it.
Thanks for that forceful “f you” because even in therapy, when I said I now have guilt for not enduring more abuse to try harder to get my abuser convicted, I was told that even though I was a vulnerable child, I was still responsible for others getting abused later. Nowadays, I feel safer in the knowledge that I couldn’t change things because of my trauma, vulnerability and youth. I add my own f you to yours.
I know it wasn't a very large section of this video, but thank you anyway for including the bit about men being accountable for their own actions. It's an important reminder that none of us are responsible for "fixing" anyone and we are not responsible for any harm they choose to cause. Honestly, it was something I really needed to hear for my own personal reasons. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for diving in Vera. All of our luminaries are in the end flawed humans, flawed in many ways. It is sad when the mind that brought some of your formative stories in your life, also has darker and harsher sides. But it's not unheard of. We wish they could be better. And the grief we feel is real
This topic is extremely triggering for me due to my OCD (it triggers ruminations for me) and your coverage has been the only coverage i can watch about this bc you take such an unbiased, fair, and kind approach to the situation and the individuals involved. Thank you for your coverage on this topic despite how depressing it is to discuss.
Is it actual diagnosed OCD or is it just the obsessive circles that any person gets stuck in if they've got anciety/traumatic history about related to the topic? Sorry, some people get it wrong so regularly I feel like I have to ask.
@@steggopotamus I don’t have trauma related to this topic. I have OCD which causes ruminations and invasive thoughts that are triggered by this topic. Can’t speak for others though I imagine those with similar subtypes/triggers to me would experience similar. I think what was so helpful about veras coverage was that it was so logical, but at the same time didn’t lack the empathy that a situation like this deserves (which sometimes a fully logical approach can seem to.)
I haven't really kept up with the news about Gaiman, I mostly found out through your deep dive and analysis of the podcasts. Thank you for that by the way. I haven't seen anyone else look as thoroughly at the sources as you did. I really like watching your videos because you often adress things that I don't think about and it helps me see things in a different light
Never EVER celebrate celebrities. I learned this when I was young and heard of JK Rowling, I am now 17 and I can't worship celebrities anymore. I will say: It still doesn't hurt any less hearing this though!!
People blindly defending their idols terrify me. I know it sucks when your favorite artists did bad things but... some things are more important than my hurt feelings and disappointment, I need to respect the potential victims (or just victims if it was proven)
^^^ long before that, steven tyler (aerosmith?) forced an ex gf into an abortion and now she's a virulent anti-abortion tyrant. the kind that thinks you're a murderer. because yes, that is the solution, not therapy and "wow no one should have forced me into ANYTHING." jimmy page, led zeppelin? 'partied' with teenage girls. that guy from 30stm, far worse. i can't imagine having some kind of celebrity worship. i'm too old and too bad at ignoring and downplaying things. i'm a bit sad bc damnit, i liked neil. neil was a big fighter of the anti-lgbt laws, the "kill your gays" laws equivalent in the uk. he didn't just start having queer characters when it became safe or popular; they were always there. not as tropes or the weird 90s american "gay men are prostitutes and WILL die of AIDS" narratives. when my friends were getting beaten or worse for being queer, he was talking about how queer people are fine and to leave us the fuck alone. not many people, especially semi-influential people, would do that. but at the end of the day, he's a dude with a job. it's a really cool job. the realities of touring and decision making and other shit sucks, but he has a really cool job where he gets to meet people who are amazing. and it's just a job. you know what else is a really cool job? being a plumber. no, it isn't glamorous. i probably won't meet david tennant. but i DO get a working toilet and sink whenever I want. and I think that's pretty cool, too. ::tyra banks "we were ALL rooting for you!" gif::
I wondered this a while ago if there might be actual shift in society how we see creators of our cherished things. Will we assume " asshole" until proven otherwise? Like sometimes it's they are progressive in one thing and not so in another thing. Similarly as with UA-cam sponsors some people already assume " scammy in some way" even before something about them comes out. Usually it's subscription that is hard to get out of.
@@Acinnn If we demand moral perfection from other people, we will always be disappointed. Where we set the line between "good but flawed" and "asshole" is mostly a personal thing. I think many of us are starved for human connection, so we try to feel these connections with creators in a parasocial relationship. This is a lot more common than it was pre-2000s-partly because social media gives us the feeling we know someone better than we really do. I think it's important to hold creators accountable, and I also think we ought to give creators the right to be imperfect people-just as we do every day for our past selves, who had misbeliefs and misbehaviors. Not doing so is another form of assholery. Humans desperately search for perfect idols to worship, but in the end we only ever find flawed people trying to make sense of the world.
Julia may feel some guilt about not approaching Neil as a friend. But back in 1986, that was just not realistic. If a man did this to you, and you still wanted him as a friend, the default was pretending it didn't happen. The WORST thing that you could do is embarrass a man. He may have misread the situation, but you may have lead him on.
I think op meant that if she had come out that would have been the prevailing thought at the time. We know it's stupid, but it's what people would have said.
@@Ikine557Agreed. After all this is only two years after a very popular movie for teenagers included one guy giving his very drunk girlfriend to another guy and when the two of them wake up in the morning they don’t know if they had sex and it is framed as very sweet. When I started college in 1990, we were still debating whether date rape was a thing that existed. I am not defending what Gaiman did at all, but I totally understand why Julia wouldn’t have said anything.
@@TheOtakuKatOP isn't victim blaming. They're saying that "you probably lead him on" is the response Julia would have gotten in the '80s so it's not her fault for not confronting him.
For those of you who, like me, can't bear to listen to these podcasts directly due to how distressing (triggering/retraumatising) that listening experience would likely be... there is a a substack called "the politics of dancing“ which has a couple of articles summarising the content very thoroughly. The author of that substack has similar criticisms about the way tortoise media has handed this, too.
All I saw was blatant transphobia, and an article on how we need to defend free speech for Nazis because of the mysterious 'they' . I didn't check out any other articles. Two being conspiracy silliness was more than enough.
Really glad you made this follow up! I appreciated the attention you gave to the victims' testimonies. Also Caroline's story honestly reminded me of cases where a landlord or property owner would leverage their position over a tenant in order to seek sexual favours. Which I would hope most people would view such cases as undeniably nonconsensual, as the threat present is that you're going to wind up homeless if you don't comply. Even if it wasn't Neil's plan to put her in such a position and he was being totally opportunistic, I think it's pretty chilling. I hope the more these stories are picked up by outlets outside of Tortoise, the more they'll kill off the conspiracy theories that are rampant in Gaiman's fandom currently. It's become increasingly frustrating to see people continue to defend him.
I don’t think it matters if it’s the best case or the worst case scenario. He’s hurting people, has known about it for years, and refuses to stop the harm. That’s all you need to know. This is not someone who will change his behavior to prevent future harm. Predators aren’t mustache twirling villains with lots of big plans and stalking. They see an opportunity and they take advantage of it, regardless what of harm it may cause. Predators are not super human evil. They are normal people putting their desires before anything else. It’s not actually that complicated.
Him using autism as an excuse makes me so angry because it doesn’t mean his memory is faulty. He had people tell him in the past this isn’t ok. Therefore he should know better. Plus his writing shows he completely understands human interactions. If his autism was truly something for him to blame his inability to understand social and physical cues then the relationships portrayed in his stories would bear the same marks. They don’t.
Also, as Vera has said a few times now in both videos - dudes in his 60s and has been doing this it seems since his mid 20s atleast...he should have learned by now after having so many experiences and situations with women how to go about them and getting clear consent (with or without the autism playing a part).
I'm so glad you've covered this. You are the only one I've been able to trust to cover this. I can't trust anyone else online who's made a video so far.
He’s a skilled writer, one of the best. But, reading Sandman a singular issue stood out. Woman being assaulted was never brought to justice when every other wrong was punished. You could argue that he’s depicting an indifferent universe, but, if these allegations are true, it’s very telling why women in Sandman are just there to be victimized.
Neil Gaiman is a popular writer he is also estimated to have a networth of 18 million dollars he's rich. He's not targetting women in his own economic bracket. Predators are opportunists not everyone of Neil's victims are necessarily going to be 20 somethings, they are going to all be at a disadvantage to him in some way. Whether that's age, economic status, mental health status or gender. If the lawyer who represents people like Johnny Depp or Prince Andrew doesn't want to be associated with under handed tactics he's welcome to not use them. If it's public record that he's been retained by Gaiman than it's fair game to mention that Gaiman is comfortable hiring someone who will use under handed tactics to silence victims. As for not saying this Gaiman's legal team's position I think that's semantics. Gaiman probably was presented with what the legal team was going to say was his positions and was asked if he agreed with them. It doesn't really distance him from those positions. As someone who is autistic, has dated autistic cis men and worked with autistic people professionally. Some portion of the white autistic community do use their diagnosis as a shield for not understanding social cues this is more prevelant in white autistic men but does also occur in white women and queers as well. It is not ableist to bring up it up when it is an on going issue in the autism community. Autism is not an excuse for over stepping personal boundaries. If you are bad at reading social cues in romantic or sexual situations it is on you to learn how to communicate effectively. It is not just for other people's safety but your own. Autistic people in general are at a high risk of being abused because of those social deficits however there are autistic predators who do hide behind their diagnosis.
I am never surprised by these allegations, cause it seems that many people with power get a sense of holding it over others and use it to get some sort of primal lust out of it. It's sickening and rotten. I am a huge fan of the works he has put out, and I think in all the dark matter of his work, some sense of his inner mechanisms are transparent. He needs to be held accountable and just eat his own making.
I'm not disagreeing with your take because there is truth to it but speaking generally (not specifically about Gaiman), it's also a one sided take. There are also those who are attracted to powerful people, manipulating things to get what they want. When it doesn't go their way they lash out, including making false allegations and so on. Then there are those who jump on the allegation bandwagon because for the attention, thrill, money or whatever reason they have. Again to clarify, not saying any of this applies to the allegations in question (I've only seen the earlier video at this point), just offering a counter to your points. 🙂
@@Elwaves2925 that's a weird take? Barring outright assault or say coercion via black mail, or a stalker fan just how often is a powerful public figure exploited by a non peer exactly? Cuz usually that's a very different variety of violence, often directed at but not exclusively towards women. How big is this hypothetical problem? Cus sure it's possible, and definitely has happened but is it a systemic issue for those with power to face from people that they employ? A celebratory also has not just same ability to say no the more the power they have they can enforce that no legally.In some context they are explicitly obligated to say no and enforce that no. A celebs ability to protect their reputation in most cases outstrips a fans ability to pressure them. Bosses can and often do retaliate when they don't get compliance to their abuse. What you're doing is victim blaming behind the guise of a hypothetical. Hypothetically how much of a problem is it, is it also a reflection of a systemic problem? Do bosses just get serially harassed by the workers they can fire without cause? 🙄 I'd also have to ask what's the point of speculating on hypothetical false allegations if you believe the allegations at hand?
@@Elwaves2925 If your point is not to suggest the situations you describe apply to the allegations in this video, then what is your point? Because nothing of what you said is a counter point to what OP stated.
@@sofiipote7 I already and clearly said I wasn't applying it to the allegations in this video. Of course it's a counter point and that point is very simple - it's not one sided and the OP's post only states one side.
@@mellowthm566 There's no way to know how often and it's not relevant. As you agree, it's definitely happened and that's what matters to my comment. How widespread it is is also irrelevant. Sure, it's mostly those with the power doing it but that doesn't take away from what I've said. As for examples, you just have to look at politicians and wealthy figures with golddiggers and those looking to enhance their positions. Also, those fans that take things too far, as you mention. Not necessarily the violent ones but the ones that form unhealthy 'romantic' attachments to celebs, even though it doesn't exist. You thinking I'm 'victim blaming' is frankly pathetic and shows how little you understand. The rest of your post isn't much better and shows how one sided you are. Your questions and comments are so biased (even with some truths) I see no point in answering them. I clearly said wasn't talking about the allegations at hand and I haven't said whether I believe them or not. You're being so disingenous it's not worth continuing this with you as it'll go nowhere.
As someone who has studied some journalism at uni, I feel that Tortoise is not just bad at reporting, but also to ask follow-up questions that would just clarify so much stuff with all these women’s stories. It all sort of it me listening to Caroline’s story. A lot of the things that are vague in Caroline’s story could be clarified if they just asked, “How? When? Why? In what sense? What do you mean by that?” So my first question is, why? Why are they not asking follow-up questions? Though, maybe they are asking follow-up questions, but they are being cut out or just smashed together when one of the reporters does a summary of the account. Then my question is, why? Why do they cut them out? Way more trustworthy if we hear it from the source itself, and it would definitely just naturally make the episodes longer and they didn’t have to bullshit themselves with unnecessary filling.
Ugh. Just occurred to me that I will be raising bar for acquaintances again. That's why you can't have friendship with someone you can't interrogate about understanding what consent is
When the Sandman Netflix adaptation came out, I kept making jokes to my friends about the connections between that and the Netflix' cartoon Bojack Horseman, but at the time I definitely wasn't expecting to see a bunch of evidence appear that Gaiman was also a weird creep in his relationships, similar to Bojack. It's like now these two characters and Gaiman are even more linked in my mind. I appreciate even more how the Bojack writers portrayed an abuser who is abusive because he's too self centered to change is behavior based simply on how it will affect others, but who also can't perceive himself abusive because he can't see the power he has. It goes against the narrative that abuse is always is calculated, when you don't even need to be that calculated to do a lot of damage.
I have to say the take of the worst vs best case scenario did not sit right with me. There is this sort generalized idea that r*pists and abusers get off of their victim's suffering, when in reality, what was described in the video as the "best case scenario" is what usually happens in real life. Situations like the ones described with Gaiman are some of the most common: coertion through manipulation and / or power imbalance, which leads to the victim feeling like they can't put a stop to the situation and even if they are able to express discomfort, this is ignored or disregarded by the abuser. I think describing them as "best case scenario" reduces what is actually the "most common scenario" to somewhat "not that bad" in a scale of s*xual abuses. When I think about these people who ignore the distress the other person is feeling while they are s*xually abusing them, I always think about this: there is no easier situation to tell what the other person is feeling than when you're having s*x: you can see their face, or feel their body, you are as close to them as you can. So, if you still go through the s*xual act not realising at any point that you're making the other person suffer, then it means you are not registering their existence as an individual. You're having s*x like you eat a plate of pasta: you don't ask the pasta how it's feeling when it's being eaten, you just were hungry and so you ate pasta. Not considering the other person as a human being with their own feelings and will is not particularly "better" than enjoying their pain, imo. But particularly, it does not change the experience of the victim. If I'm being abused, it does not really change whether the abuser is enjoying because of my pain or despite of it. I'm suffering, he's enjoying. The label of worst / best focuses on the predator, instead of the victim: "okay, but what was HE feeling when he abused her?" -- who cares? As I mentioned, most likely he didn't give a sh*t, but whatever his reason was, the actions are the same, and the victim's experience is the same. I understand this video was partially about giving an assessment on Gaiman, but I think that assessment should be based on his actions and not his hypothetical feelings about them. Regardless of whether it was because he did not care or he enjoyed it, he repeatedly abused women who he had power over. That is the worst case scenario, and, as long as we believe his victims, that is what happened.
Very interesting take. I think Vera's message is that both the best and the worst scenarios are really bad so calling it best scenario is not at all saying this is a good scenario. Vera expressly mentioned that being slapped hurts the same no matter the intent so i guess you are actually more on the same page than you think
@@bgranger_842 the slap part now that you mention it I remember and it's a good point. I do get she didn't say it's a good scenario, and I didn't try to imply she said that either. I just think the word "best" it's not a good choice to describe the situation, and more particularly, I believe the difference between the two scenarios is irrelevant. That was mostly my point
@@sofiipote7 i agree. I think the former best scenario (i.e. him not realising what he was doing) was better. However, the current best and worst scenarios are equally terrible. As before, the "best" scenario was not as bad, i think vera tried to keep the best/worst scenario rhetoric but it no longer makes any sense for the reasons you point.
A person with clinically autistic social obliviousness will be oblivious in multiple spheres. It frustrates me enormously when people attribute a pattern of sexual boundary violation to a quirk of their autism, yet they have no such pattern of obliviously violating implicit boundaries in any other kind of interaction. It frustrates me when these poor hapless goofs have an almost magical ability to observe social norms in every setting that isn’t isolating and coercing someone they’re attracted to.
The thing with autism and consent! A youtuber, maybe her name is Paige? did a video a while back about how autistic men are being taught that they are incabable of even learning the skill of reading cues and non-verbal communcation, and therefore they kind of don't have to learn it. It's like boys will be boys with an added becasue they don't understand it's wrong. Plus, autistic people tend to have our physical boundaries crossed and disregarded a lot more. We are often forced to endure aversive touch and treatment becasue our expressions of discomfort is viewed as hyperbolic or overly dramatic, and we need to stop being so sensitive. So when we grow up, we have also learned that it's normal to challenge other peoples expressed boundaries, since that's how we have been treated.
oh and I was thinking about the movie the imitation game, both Cumberbatch and Knightley portray people that is coded as autistic. Cumberbatch particularly, he plays Alan Turing as a steriotypical savant autistic man. He is lacking social skills, and at a point he sees Knightleys character successfully socialize with a group of people. Becasue he's bonded with her and they kind of vibe with each other a way he usually isn't, bc she's (probably) also autistic and he kinda gets that they are alike. So he's surprised and ask her how she can talk to other people, but when he does everyone just hate him. And her response is that becasue she's a woman she had to learn social skills that he didn't, he was excused and bc he was very smart and a man that was enough merit to still get him to his goals without being forced to learn to talk to people.
You also have nailed something major here with how the work has been done for the predators because they almost don't even need to test out our boundaries because we have been broken down to it already. Remember the old myth about how it is more likely to happen to disabled or autistic kids because we crave affection? In my opinion it's not that it's just that because society has already separated us off so the predator knows we are going to have less defences. I have had people online start straight from the assumption I would sleep with them because my self esteem is low. Nah. I won't fight back _confidently_ because I have low self esteem but I sure as hell won't appreciate the sexual approaches.
this is true, and it's part of the reason why autistic people, particularly autistic women but of course autistics of all genders, are much more likely to be the *victims* of abuse than the perpetrators. which makes it particularly disgusting when autism is used as an excuse or justification for violent or coercive behavior.
Your thoughts on Neil Gaiman and autism convinced me that he knows what he is doing and that he is in the wrong. NG hurting the women he desires/wants some kind of validation from sounds like how he wrote Morpheus’ relationships with women (though not limited to human women). Having a relationship with a being greater than a god is the ultimate power imbalance. The Sandman works are my favorites of his, and I cannot see how I can return to them or the Netflix series with the knowledge of what their creators character is. The art was real.
Yep, the character of Nada from Sandman has always been a troublesome one, especially in light of all this...a woman imprisoned/punished for millennia because she displeased Morpheus.
It’s been an age since I read it, but what discomforted me at the time (and which I only now realize in retrospect) was the way it seemed to center his guilt and feelings over the fact that he mistreated her over her, as you point out, thousands of years of torture. It’s in keeping with the story since he is the main character, and she’s just a glimpse into his past, rather than a real character of her own, but it really rankles these days.
It is devastating to learn about one of my former favorite author's autism diagnosis (a diagnosis I share and, in my professional life, help others understand and accommodate) in a video discussing how he abused women. I would have been so thrilled to know this just a couple months ago, and now it's just another story people can use to say Autistic people are predators.
My opinion is that it's actually rare that adult men/ let alone anyone don't understand they're violating boundaries or coercive. Press perpetrators or present their actions aimed at themselves or say a co worker they often say it's that's different or express temporary guilt before trying to justify their misdeeds. They know it's wrong.. they just have a underlying belief or worldview that justifies the behavior as right when they do it or the identity of their target justifies and negates the violence ( well you're my wife, partner, family a woman, a man fill in the blank). Perpetrators also understand the control they gain with their actions to repeat them again and again. They understand enough to seek that control even if needs/wants can be met without coercion. The other option is that they're simply estimating their ability to get away with ot and either think that power itself justifies things (which in turn reinforces possible ideology) or don't care - and no that doesn't mean they're a narcissist or sociopath. dehumanization is very common to several prevailing social norms and that's a uncomfortable reality. It's just easier to harm others if you don't think of them as a fellow person. *Also fuck Gaiman for using autism as an excuse. Bdsm can actually help explicit communication not deter it. Seeking clarity is the typical reaction to miscommunication trauam* *This is not about Vera btw she's talking about an actual singular public figure. She's a public figure themself and factually saying she doesn't know if Gaiman understands his behavior and she can't say anything about his motives. She nails this.
Dear Vera, thank you for your video. You really helped me process this horrible news. I had to pause to gawk at the incredible poster of the tree with the lights behind the flip over. The little whip and your expressions of sincerity, frustration and humor, reminded me of my time as a sex worker, and how the more seasoned people from the BDSM community who had really worked on that side of themselves, and had developed a clear understanding and an acceptance of who they were, were actually the best clients you could have, since they never crossed any borders, always communicated what they wanted and always demanded to know what you wanted or didn't want. The people who prided themselves on being normal, though, and who called the BDSM people perverts, were the ones who so much more often had no idea of what and who they were sexually, and if their sexual behaviour was abusive. I'm so devastated that a genius like Gaiman seems to never really have taken the time and space or chance to develop a mature sexual persona...😰😰😰
At this point, with the extra info from the "Am I Broken" podcast, I don't really have any doubts that Gaiman acted seriously inappropriately with multiple women. Wealthy and influential white guy taking advantage of fans is hardly unusual in our culture. But Tortoise Media is still sketchy AF (and has ties to even sketchier people). I'm not entirely convinced they're not driven by a deeper agenda, and likely distorting some of the events to make it look even worse. If they were the only source, I'd still be doubtful. As for the "problem with social cues thing", I'm autistic, and I have a hard time with social cues, which is why I F--KING ASK!
I'm still getting serious "James Gunn / McDonald's Hot Coffee" vibes from this whole thing - that we're not getting the whole picture & that the people pushing this narrative have their own, self-serving agenda.
"It's a thought" Damn, if only she'd done the emotional labour of teaching a creepy ass man to behave normally. How negligent of her not to parent an adult, who is the same age as her. Truly shameful. Jail for 1000 years /s As an autistic person, struggling with reading a situation doesn't rob you of your ability to ask questions and being attentive to your partner, like... what??? If you know you struggle with that stuff you don't just feebly flop into "woe is me, I cannot bear to put one molecule of effort into increasing my clarity into what is happening in this intimate situation". If you're more worried about annoying your partner with questions than explicit consent, you're not mature enough to be in that situation plain & simple. I very much agree with the power dynamic points you've made as well. Also good on Claire for calling him out. I literally yelled "YEAH CLAIRE!!" out loud at that part
What I can't stop thinking about is if everyone knew, does it mean Sir Terry knew and ignored it? If your friend is someone writing workshops name rules after, how can you not know? Sorry if that's a bit off-topic, of course the most important thing is not my feelings about fantasy authors, but justice for the victims and stopping the abuser. Thank you, Vera, for not being silent about it all.
I'm willing to bet Pratchett had no idea about this side of Gaiman. They spent very little time in each other's company, at least from how I understand it... Most of the writing of good omens was done at a distance
@@meala23 I hope so, thank you for clarifying it! I'm not the best at researching such information, I must admit. It would require reading through many interviews to check, and I don't have time (I don't read fast enough in English).
One silver lining of all this is that it highlights that celebrities should not be placed on pedestals, powerful people tend to abuse their power, and it’s a good thing to always remember that.
1:26:11 Given that, in episode 4 of the podcast, Tortoise mentions attempting to contact Gaiman and getting shut down any line of questioning by his PR team, it buries the idea that his legal team would ever be involved in this as it creates the false notion that Gaiman and his representatives refused _any_ contact.
Okay, I don't know if anyone has thought about this possible sort of side note, but I can't help but wonder what Tori Amos is thinking and feeling concerning all of this right about now. As some may know, she and Gaiman are good friends, and Tori mentions him in several of her songs. I was introduced to Neil's work, so to speak, via her music. The irony in this relationship is, if the allegations are true, that Tori founded RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network), the States' largest anti-sexual violence organization. I'm learning that life is messy, the white and black of it all is often a soot grey, black carbon. Even our heroes have dirty hands. "Behind crystalline irises Loons can drive Where the world bleeds white..." -Carbon/Tori Amos
I've been saying this on Tumblr since it first broke. To me it proves that he is perfectly capable of treating women with respect if he thinks they're "important" enough. But I'm genuinely desperate to know what Tori is thinking and whether she has cut him off and whether she is still going to sing his name. He's in some of her best songs. I don't envy her this. 💔
@bethanderson2111 Do you know how long this has been out? I ask because I have no idea. I'm just hearing about it. I love those lines... Space Dog, Carbon, Horses, Tear in your hand, and the list goes on. I feel she's in an impossible situation. I can even begin to think how she's taking this! Yes, I agree, about him treating Tori with respect and not seeing her as something to use. I even thought it without realizing I did. I was a bueaty queen, um, yuck. (Oddly enough, I have the same crown she wears in that photo of her in high school) I just started thinking last night about college, after posting that comment, the people who knew me then and later when I was married and pregnant. One man commented that my best friend - also pregnant - didn't "look pregnant from the back!" Another man saying I still looked pregnant just a few days after the birth of my first child. And I have hundreds of comments from men like this, as if my worth was in the way THEY SAW ME and not seeing me as important enough to not make such judgmental comments about my body to my face. (Hey! Yes, I did throw one dude out of my house!) I wondered if Neil is the same way, seeing most women as a thing to use rather than seeing them as human beings to respect? How disappointing. Side note: while I was pregnant, I taught art to young kids, 7 to 18 years. I just reconnected with one who is now in her 30s. She loves Tori! And she plays and sings very much like her, too. We talk about this stuff all the time, the disrespect of women. She doesn't know about Neil yet. 😒
@@fiercest_calm the allegations against Neil do you mean? 3rd July. Initially two women reported in a podcast "Master" from Tortoise. Then a different podcast, Am I Broken, reported allegations from a different woman who had initially spoken to them two years ago but decided not to go forward at the time. Then two more women went to Tortoise and they released a fifth episode. It's so horrible. Details can be found here muccamukk.dreamwidth.org/1678972.html
@@fiercest_calm and just. Yeah. It's so upsetting thinking that this has all been going on all this time. I'm sorry men talked about you like that. It's not ok 😡😞
Thank you, Vera, for covering this. I can't listen to the podcasts, but I can manage to listen to your coverage because of the sensitivy and care with which you handle this topic. And as an autistic woman I think your description of how your friends ask for clarification to the point of other people's annoyance because of a fear of 'getting it wrong' sounds very accurate, at least to my personal situation and that of people I know. I hate that there's men like Gaiman out there who are autistic and seem to use that as an excuse for not respecting people's boundaries or asking for (enthusiastic) consent. And what makes it worse is that there are so many journalists, commentators etc. who seem to be specifically waiting for people like this to call out and to paint autism as something scary and dark. Autistic people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators, but the focus seems to always be on the few that are the agressor.
That "it's a thought" thing was evil. I have a heck of a lot of problems with some of the reporting here but Johnson's comments are plain victim shaming. All victims.
Yeah but Rachel J. is Boris Johnson's sister so they were presumably raised the same. And Boris J is a known predator, conservative letch/ ex UK prime minister cheater and wife beater as well as saying spending govt funds on child victims is " spaffing" money up the wall. Context often helps.
Oh yeah. I'm a survivor of CSA and had some really harass-y behavior by a guy who was in a friend space. I never went to police and the time I did tell someone, I was blamed and called a liar. I still have times that I wish I went to police as a kid, but I also know as an adult that I didn't do anything, I was a child, and it isn't on me to do that now. Shaming survivors for not speaking out about something so stigmatizing and painful is so gross.
Johnson made very victim blaming comments on The Last Leg, essentially implying some women who were asked to wear skimpy outfits and sign NDAs for a charity event should have known that they'd be sexually assaulted. That was 6 years ago and it is very possible she's changed her opinion since then but it does make me wonder how genuine her motivations are. Although ultimately does it really matter how pure her intentions are? I guess not...
This whole Neil Gaiman thing sucks so much. It is also an unfortunate learning opportunity. So I just wanna speak to those who might feel the tinge of frustration with communication. If that cute flirty secret social cue game is too much. If you feel like you cant win. Then dont play that game. It is ALWAYS best to just be forward with your feelings and blunt. Even if it turns that person off. If being honest about your feelings and attraction to the point that there can be no confusion and it turns that person off, even if they WERE into you before that... They arent worth dating and they arent worth hooking up with. Better to be honest and real and single and alone than to maybe be wrong and hurt someone you actually like by making the wrong assumption.
Right? I was really looking forward to getting my hands on a copy of Good Omens, looks like I better read it before something unsavory comes out about Sir Terry by sheer association :(
As a note, the breach of the NDA is unlikely to require payment since it is arguably an NDA to specifically cover up wrongful acts that could be legally actionable - there's a doctrine in Common Law of "ex turpi causa non oritur actio" which essentially says that you cannot seek relief against a party that begins with you doing a tortious act. Since, on the information provided, it seems Gaiman specifically requested this NDA to silence her free speech and accept a lowball settlement, rather than have him face the consequences of wrongdoing, the court is likely to either throw it out or propose that she then raise all those actions against him. The latter option would put all the dirty laundry out in public, so there's no way competent counsel would recommend it.
This is so sad and gross. He's been such an ally to not only the lgbtq+ community but also to fan-fic writers. Sighs. I feel bad for these women that have been in these situations with him. But I still want to hear from him about it. And I still want a major news organisation to look into it.
@@mutate34I've never had any faith in men at all, ever. So this doesn't shake me. I find it gross and disappointing because I've literally spoken to Gaiman for a uni project/paper. But no I'm not surprised. Because yes, by the gods, yes ALL men.
Remember, there is no such thing as an ally, if you're gay all straight people pose a threat to you and vice versa and the same thing goes for any other difference between people because all humans are out entirely for themselves
People in positions of authority think that accommodations given to them are given freely. They want to think that because they don't see the pressure their authority puts on others.
Gaiman could easily have assured her that she could consent voluntarily but a refusal would not affect her employment or housing status, which otherwise be guilty of criminal sexual harassment. He could even have put it in writing, like his precious NDAs. A decent man would. He is not.
As an autistic artist, writer, and studying therapist, I promise you someone's body of work does not reflect who a person is. Art work and writing and individual lego pieces that are built onto. A person is the entire finished lego structure. Nobodies work is an entire lego structure of themselves. It's always always always one or a handful of their loss lego pieces that are built upon later. Yes, it's a small token of someone's passing thoughts, past trauma, inspiration etc, but not the entire structure that a fully grown human being is. SO for anyone who feels disappointed that their idol or favorite books etc is tainted by reality, hopefully this helps put things into perspective
Is it odd to say this didn't surprise me? It let me down massively, but didn't surprise me. When I was watching Sandman, the episode where the successful author who pushes for a feminist cast and crew of his work while secretly being a sexual assaulter raised my suspicions that Gaiman was telling on himself.
Thank you for talking about this. I know it's not pleasant to have to dive in to and speak about, but there's not enough chatter about this man and these allegations.
As a photog that works at a TV station, I appreciate how frustrated you get when standards of journalism are not being met. You remind me of old school investigative journalists at the local level. It sucks because when I was in journalism school and going through a rough time, I went to a comic book shop and the owner introduced me to Sandman. His stories got through me a lot and I don't really know if I can pick them up for awhile.
I still think Amanda knew. Prior to this, Neil said their marriage fell apart because of “mistakes” on his part. She seems like a smart woman and would know better that Neil didn’t just cheat on her.
@@Usagi393 Amanda once faked a suicide in front of an unstable ex. She's not a smart woman and honestly Niel defending her on that and her ableism was a red flag in itself.
As for Good Omens season 3, Gaiman was always very active on Tumblr and had answered a number of asks about the scripts. Some of the last interactions he had before fleeing the platform was stating that the first three episodes had been handed over and he was in the middle of writing the rest. I think maybe at least the first 4 scripts were with Prime, and half of episode 6 had been written. David Tennant had mentioned previously at some conventions he’s been to in recent months that he’s read the scripts and that he knows how it ends. Whether that means the production can still go ahead, who knows. It’s scheduled to start filming in January, and the production company that was responsible for creating the opening sequence and other special effects hinted a couple months back that they’ve started working on the production again. Guess we’ll know more closer to January.
Why put people there in the first place? Give our allies their props, but don't expect them to be perfect either. You can have your icons for various reasons, but most Gaiman fans love (either all of- or some of) his work - not the man. And the work hasn't gone anywhere.
Me too. I loved him from like... middle school up until Trigger Warning came out. Then he was awful to Orlando Jones (one of my favorite actors, but also just a human who deserves basic human decency), so I stopped following him entirely.
Re: the autism "defence" Vera may not have brought up the autism thing in the previous video, but one point she did make that I really liked was roughly "anyone who says clear communication and asking for consent can't be sexy is being silly", and she demonstrated this using a very silky voice. I'm autistic and what Vera described there is a strategy I've found incredibly useful in reconciling my own anxiety about missing social cues and sexual interactions. I've heard similar from other autistics. I didn't actually know Gaiman was autistic, but there are some many reasons why that's not an excuse.
GO3 still is scheduled to start filming in January and I believe scripts have been submitted but I don’t know how many. Tennant has said that he read them before this dropped. I do know that the former co showrunner’s exit from GO was not because he had other projects because he was scheduled to adapt another of Gaiman’s works and left that project too. I’m inclined to think that Gaiman played a big part in his exit. It was one of the reasons that I stopped being a big fan of Gaiman. I am still a fan of GO tho because of Pratchett and the cast of the adaptation. It’s because of them and that it was never just Gaiman’s work that will let me watch it and even buy the dvds if they ever exist. But except for that I’m done with him. I don’t think I’ll get rid of all of his books but some might be gone yeah. It’s 😢
I'm autistic and misread situations all the time but I've never had issues with consent because I verbally ask before initiating anything. If I've misread the situation nothing physical will have happened.
41:17 Thank you for bringing up how his lawyer of choice does not matter. Guilty or innocent, liable or not liable, he needs a lawyer who specializes in the kind of allegations he's facing. The guilt/liability of that other lawyer's client(s) does not indicate his. Before anyone tries to say I'm dismissing these allegations, I'm not. But his choice of legal representation is irrelevant. We know what the allegations are already. The lawyer should match the kind of law involved regardless of the claims' validity.
Your Eff You to Johnson and Tortoise was spot on. It kinda sums up why I have so much trouble believing anything they've claimed. That's not to say there is no truth to any of the allegations, just that their reporting isn't making it believable. It causes me to question everything they've claimed. Even moreso when you take into account Johnson's personal issues with Gaiman. There's also nothing to show Tortoise is good at investigating. If they were they wouldn't need to BS so much of it on the reporting side.
41:00 5k is a goshdang insult. If there's enough truth to pay someone off, there's enough truth to offer something that would be adequate to her situation. It does ensure that she sets the first real number of the negotiation. But I tell you what, someone does that, I'm telling my lawyer to take the demand.... Also never, ever try to negotiate this kind of thing without a lawyer, no matter how much shame you feel or how the other lawyer tries to pressure you.
There is a big difference between being autistic and struggling to understand or read social cues, and hurting others because you just don't want to care about how much harm you do to other human beings. That, my friend, is not autism, that's sociopathy.
I'm in social circles that overlap with Gaiman so that's awkward. The person I know who knows him directly just posted about how disappointing this whole thing is for someone we all thought was a good guy so at least I don't have to censor myself online.
Gaiman told on himself in The Sandman, in a bit they kept from the comics into the show. In Calliope, the writer is praised for his portrayal of women and he talks about how much he cares about feminism, while we know he's holding a woman captive, raping her regularly. In both cases there are parallel, meta details between Gaiman and the writer. In the show his work is even being adapted by Netflix. Initially, I thought of these comments as Gaiman writing it as a caution to himself. But in light of these allegations, yeah. It feels like he was telling.
"You shouldn't abstain from rape just cuz ya think that I want you to... You shouldn't rape cuz rape is a fucked up thing to do... Pretty obvious, just don't fucking rape people. Didn't think I needed to WRITE THAT ONE DOWN for ya..." - From God's Perspective, What, Robert Burnham
Thank you for continuing to cover this. You are a source I trust ❤ and I think you have covered it sooo well and with so much thought and care. I understand why you dont want to further. But I am glad this issue helped me find your channel. You have an amazing mind and I love listening to your perspectives.
NDA's don't protect people from committing crimes or abuse. Illegal Eagle has talked about NDA's and has said many times that NDA's never protect against hurting people. Lawyers shouldn't be so expensive so the common person can afford to have good representation since the rich love to prey on the common folk so much.
Like another commenter here I have an autistic spouse. I know all autism is different but the idea that he wouldn’t understand a “no” or a power dynamic is laughable. He goes so out of his way not to hurt people that he’ll ruminate on slightly hurting an employees feelings long after they forget about it. What he wouldn’t be able to do is understand people’s unspoken desires and weaknesses in order to manipulate and seduce them for decades
You can’t claim a 25 year old married man is an inexperienced guy who misread signals. Also, he was married! It’s fucked up he hit on anyone in the first place!
I'm in an odd position regarding the autism thing, because I'm on the wrong side of it. I'm a cis woman, not much younger than Gaiman, and in not my first but my second sexual relationship, a very long time ago, I found myself in a position where I was misreading the negative cues of the man I was with. He was a few years younger than I was at an age where that difference mattered, and it simply didn't occur to me that I was doing anything wrong. I thought it was how it was meant to work. I didn't have any context for men's consent, which reflects badly on me and badly on the time as a whole. The thing is that I have *never* forgiven myself. I have *never* been able to forget, and I hope to God I have never done it again. Decades upon decades later, I still think about it every day. I don't understand someone who claims to understand consent, and yet didn't learn that lesson the very first time.
Thank you for the video, Vera! When an accusation of abuse happens, if it is coming from one or two victims, unfortunately, it could be at least some doubt if they are really speaking the truth. However, when multiple victims come forward to share their experiences with the same abuse perpetrator, it becomes a pattern, especially considering that cases of abuse are usually not isolated incidents. That is why social movements, such as "#MeToo", are so important. A single victim would feel shame in denouncing their abuser and they would probably be accused of lying, especially if the perpetrator is somebody famous. Something really frustrating is how most of the reliable mainstream news sources are still not reporting about these accusations directly, except by referencing Tortoise Media. I do really hope they are still investigating the accusations themselves. Ironically (or not), I am only hearing reports and discussions about the Neil Gaiman's accusations from his own fans, and I am very grateful for their awareness of the issue, despite their emotional investment in his works.
I'm a journalist from Germany and was an avid Gaiman reader. Thank you so much for explaining how journalism works and speaking out against conspiracy theories ❤
I really don't know what to do about this. Over the past 4 years, Gaiman's work has basically become part of my personality. Thank you for being a source that I trust that I could come to to understand what's going on. At the very least I'm hoping that this results in court-ordered therapy
Thank you for your well reasoned and thorough working through of all of this over both videos. I hope you don't have to go anywhere near this again. 💜💜💜
Heartbreaking, infuriating important to talk about. Thank you for keeping this in the news and keeping us updated.. I agree that it would be great if the major news sources would carry the story eventually. And I'd like to say they move a lot faster sometimes. . We're probably all just heartbroken. I appreciate you bringing up the age gap I know that there can be ages and related to this however when you have a society where women are not equal to men that age Gap can alone be a power dynamic and of course you're right there was so much other stuff going on power dynamic wise as far as employer and etcetera etcetera. 👍
I dont have much to add, i think you covered things very well. I also completely agree with your frustration with them obscuring the source of “our understanding of neil gaiman’s position”. Really poor journalism.
As an autistic person, I am so fucking offended by the implication that my autism would make me liable to ignore someone's 'no' at the expense of their comfort. Don't use your autism as an excuse for being a shitty person. I used to be a champion of Gaiman and I'm so fucking disappointed.
I'm glad to hear this. A person I thought was a friend was taking advantages of myself and others, claiming their autism as reason. It was really upsetting, and a few of the victimized people were also on the spectrum and said it was a BS excuse.
Go damnit every fucking time, every godamn time really, every time, as an autistic person it is so fucking annoying to me primarily because I really do struggle majorly with boundaries, they are difficult they really are they are contradictory and people “communicate” them by not telling them to you but in no world does that make this kind of thing ok, I get fucking up boundaries, I do it constantly, I will over share or do something else that oversteps boundaries but never ever the physical ones, when I was younger I would hug people a lot without asking and someone directly told me that it made them uncomfortable so I started asking people of it was ok and that was that (mind you I was ten and Neil is an old man which makes it worse) physical boundaries aren’t hard to obey, they aren’t like social boundaries which are a lot easier to break without knowing them, physical boundaries have a very easy default which is to not touch people without asking. Furthermore, if someone communicates explicitly a boundary quite literally nothing outside of forgetfulness or intention will cause someone to break a boundary that they have been explicitly communicated to about, autism does not make you harass people or stalk people or sa people or anything like that. I’m sorry if this came off as aggressive I have just heard this excuse too many times
@@aazhie Even if they didn't realise they were taking advantage at first, it doesn't make it okay. Once you're told that this behaviour is unacceptable, it's on you to take that on board and change
@cadno3423 that is exactly what my friends told me, and I agree. I was uncertain at first because I tend to self doubt my interpretations of what people say vs what they do. I appreciate the confirmation!
Absolutely. Male autistic men do not get a pass for this - but people (and sometimes parents) make excuses for them instead of teaching them. It is absolutely not an excuse.
Omfg the autism thing makes me furious. My spouse is autistic an when we had our first kiss, you know what they did? They said: "I'd really like to kiss you." And I said: "I really want to kiss you too." It's not hard!!!!!!!
But you know what serial abusers like to do? Blame their actions on some arbitrary thing out of their control to avoid accountability.
Ughhhh. And let's not baby this man any longer. After DECADES of pulking this bs he knows his own patterns, he's self aware enough.
On the bright side, to get through this I played with my kitty for an hour so perhaps he'll leave me alone long enough so I can cook without him jumping onto the stove for once.
Yes. And most survivors are autistic. We often worked out we were autistic after a mental breakdown because we couldn't shrug off assault
Same. My spouse is autistic and consistently asks me if things are ok to this day. We've been married for years and they still like to check just in case. They have a history of people making them uncomfortable/crossing boundaries so they're very careful about that with others because they don't want anyone to be uncomfortable or feel bad.
When I heard that, it made me yell out loud. "But you know what serial abusers like to do? Blame their actions on some arbitrary thing out of their control to avoid accountability." YUP. My mother had a lot of mental health issues, and she would use them as a way of not having to take the blame for bad things she did. It played a heavy role in our relationship falling apart.
@@beccastell6439 I don't think it's fair to say that most survivors are autistic. Although it seems the inverse is true - as far as I'm aware, most autistic AFAB's are survivors (I'm unsure about stats on NB or AMAB autistic people). Is there somewhere that has found most survivors are autistic?
It's wilde that he decided to use autism as an excuse. But people do that. I remember having a friend (only been friends for 6 month then we went our separate ways) who used to be really rude towards me (such as looking at a painting of my friend that I have painted 10 years ago and saying "I've seen better art than this") and blamed that on adhd.
After watching the whole thing I’m really saddened by the situation.
I am autistic.
When I was a teen I also struggled with social cues especially in more spicy situations and I found myself in situations that were problematic, especially when I wasn’t sure how to say no, how to say yes, how to ask for explicit, vehement consent.
The difference is that I was FIFTEEN, not fifty.
I really dislike the insinuation that his autism is being used in ANY WAY to excuse what is starting to look like a long term pattern of behaviour.
Yes, exactly 💯 I absolutely agree. Just so fucked up.
Autism is more likely to make us targets for s*xual ab*se and coercion, yes, it's a disgusting act to try to use neurodivergence as a shield to deflect responsibility for one's actions 🤢
Yep, I was only diagnosed with autism in my 20s, but my whole life, I've known I struggle with social cues and so compensate the opposite way, I need obvious and enthusiastic consent
Same.
This is what really got me. Like it could be an explanation but it's not an excuse and like it's such a deflection and it's insulting too. It throws autism into such a bad light. Like, what the hell dude?! This whole situation is miserable.
One thing this has taught me is that you will NEVER know someone from their art alone; yes, it can tell you about the inner-most world of a person, but if you do not know them in person (how they are with friends and family), someone's art, as revealing as it may be, is always going to be delivered through lenses and by the artist. And if you're a bad person, you have every incentive to present your inner world as sympathetically as possible; no amount of artistic vision can a person not be a social creature
i just assume that all the artists i admire may disappoint me horribly.
it's the only healthy way to approach enjoying someone's work imho
What made Gaiman especially insidous is that his fans could never even really try to just know him from his art alone, because he was so eager to engage with the fans on social media, especially on Tumblr, where any interactions with celebrities would feel particularly relatable
I've known far too many people whose art revealed absolutely nothing about them outside of them knowing what will net them recognition within specific niche groups.
@@coolsenjoyer The ability to exploit parasocial relationships takes a special brand of sadism.
@@coolsenjoyer
He was constantly on social media, which makes his recent silence all the more striking.
1:32:50 - 1:33:23 “There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”
― Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
Terry would have been furious with him over this.
@@EvilDMMk3 I agree!
@@EvilDMMk3 Or we'd learn even Terry would tie himself in a knot for his friend.
I genuinely hope that wouldn't be the case but we'll never know now @@TheoRae8289
Damn I treat m yself as a thing too much
OK but at what point does "doesn't intend deliberate harm, just doesn't care" BECOME deliberate harm BECAUSE he doesn't care? I don't think someone as obviously intelligent as Gaiman could possibly assume, for 40+ years, that he has NEVER inflicted any harm in any of these encounters. And yet he has continued to commit them. At this point, to me, that IS deliberate harm.
I mean, there's been lots of situations where that standard would apply to Trump - although he certainly means harm too much of the time.
I think the only way intent impacts something like this is the scale of evil.
Apathy is still evil, it's just not malice.
It's like being Darth vader vs emporer Palpatine.
Still evil, still hurt so many people that he shouldn't be forgiven just because he saved his son. He's just not laughing while he does it.
One strike at most after it's been clearly explained in good faith.
It is difficult, I think. I always want to leave open the possibility that somebody was simply selfish, I guess, or oblivious, or whatever. Particularly with a first or only offense, or if they're still young and/or inexperienced. That it's possible that somebody can cross boundaries without knowing. Even that it's possible for somebody to cross boundaries and be aware they're crossing boundaries, but still not be actively malicious, not actually want to hurt people, just kind of be ignoring the possibility. I honestly don't know if I'm being too naive, but I want it to be true.
Regardless, I don't think any of that applies here.
I would say it’s not deliberate bc it’s not someone going “I’m going to go and cause harm to these people”. Instead, it’s someone saying “I do not care if I cause harm as long as I find gratification of some kind”. I would say that can be more damning than deliberate harm. Someone who causes deliberate harm is predictable. Those around them know when they’re dangerous and can take steps to protect themselves. Someone who just doesn’t care if they leave harm in their wake are more unpredictable and often leave those around them blindsided. It also makes the harm they cause in some ways more dehumanizing bc their victims are a means to an end.
That's for a court of law to decide but unfortunately I doubt that will ever happen.
It really hurts to see Neil Gaiman’s allegations and his behaviors come to light. I wasn’t a big consumer of his books, but I LOVED Coraline, both the book and the film. And he was best friends and co-writers with Terry Pratchett, my favorite fantasy author of all time, and such a kind and charitable human being that we lost far too soon. Neil Gaiman, as a fellow autistic person, you broke my heart. He should know better than to do what he did.
Oh he knows better. You have to simply not care about someone else's distress in favor of one's own wants.
1:34:42 I am autistic, so I will say what Vera is perhaps unwilling to say explicitly: f**k him for saying that. Autism is a diagnosis, not a license. If you have a visual impairment, you don’t drive a vehicle without corrective lenses; if you have a social impairment, you don’t act as if you don’t in this kind of situation. “Look, I’m bad at social cues. I’m feeling this; are you interested as well?” is not a difficult thing to say.
Whether or not you’re neurodivergent, the standard is always an *enthusiastic* *consent*.
Period. End of story.
100% agree
I'm autistic and the last person I was talking to is, and FOR THAT REASON we were both constantly checking in with each other and asking for consent and feedback. Driving without glasses is a great analogy.
I’ve struggled with getting to terms with my autism diagnosis, in my early 20s when I learned it could be the case… My parents had struggled to admit it, I’ve made mistakes.
The thing is? I’m trying to be better… I know that I should strive to be a better person every day, more than I was before; I analyse myself far more critically and think my actions out before acting on them. That includes what I say, too… It’s hard, but I could not forgive myself if I didn’t.
Considering the nature of Gaiman's award-winning profound writing, he might not be eligible for "didn't understand the power dynamics" defence.
A similar, but much worse case, is Thomas Jefferson (writing volumes on rights and liberty, while doing everything he was proven to do).
Yessss thank you!
Well I wasn't expecting Gaiman to be compared to Thomas Jefferson _in this way_ , but here we are 🥲🙃
(ftr though I 100% agree)
Super weird to say "if he was conscious of the power dynamic". There is this tendency to verbally transform men into bumbling babies in situations like these. He used triangulation to coerce sexual contact from his housesitter, that doesn't just kinda happen by accident, it is gross and abusive.
One hundred percent. Yes.
Agreed
Re Caroline: I think the part where she was asleep in bed and woke up to him having put her hand on his penis changes what you're saying. She could not AT ALL consent to that while also and that takes it from "circumstantial" to "predatory"
As someone whose autism leads her to be prone to Amelia Bedelia levels of misunderstanding, you learn to adapt by discussing and clarifying EVERYTHING. To not do that at his age is a willful asshole move :/ Sigh. I stopped holding authors up as gods ages ago, but this still stings.
Right? People around me get so, *so* annoyed by me asking fifty million questions to clarify something that they think is super obvious, and conveniently forget all that the moment I don't clarify something and it ends up in a big misunderstanding. I was raised and socialised as a girl, and present mostly femme now too, so I wonder how much that has contributed to things, because girls and women aren't usually given the benefit of the doubt (especially if the misunderstanding is a social thing) whereas a lot of the autistic boys and men I know seem to get a pass, because how could they possibly know better 🙄
Reading the name Amelia Bedelia again made everything better ❤
@@DisWriter I still love those books.
I've gotta disagree. Threatening a single mother with homelessness if she doesn't sleep with you is extremely predatory. It wasn't her idea to sleep with him.He sought it out. He suggested it. He strong-armed her into it. All of it reads as extremely manipulative and premeditated.
Also mentioning the lawyer is useful information. If I heard a celebrity hired Johnny Depp's lawyer for a case, that tells me a lot about the tactics and approach a theoretical celebrity is using.
Agreed. Particularly the hand on penis while asleep thing
She had sex with him because she was scared of what might happen if she didn't. How can one call this anything other than r*pe.
I think this is a semantic issue rather than an actual difference in opinion. Vera was quite clear that threatening her house for sex is very very bad.
Exactly!
As the above commentor said, Vera said it was "opportunistic" in the way that she just so happened to be single after they had made the housing deal with her. He didn't arrange a master plan to put her in a position where she would be single and relying on him for housing.
The video very clearly states that this is still a manipulative and coercive thing to do, it's just a different M.O. than the other cases.
I love that you added that comment about the difference between masking and respecting others. I'm autistic, and I absolutely hate it when people (almost always men) use that as an excuse to trample over other people's boundaries. If someone knows they have a hard time reading non-verbal cues, then they need to take things slow and verbally check that the other person is okay. The only reason they wouldn't do that is that they care more about their own pleasure than the well-being of others.
Taking things slow and asking doesn't always help. If someone isn't going to say no unprompted, they will probably say yes if prompted.
I have autism and I think I'm rather extra careful, I could never imagine stepping boundaries like this but then I'm a woman. He probably was thinking with the thing between his legs rather than his brain.
The (almost always men) and (usually men) parenthetical I see in this and other comments remind me of an inverse Sommerton "usually straight white women" opinion. Probably has more truth to it as well, making it truly inverse.
So, there used to be a way women got the word out on creeps. Often it was "gossip" & sometimes literally a warning scribbled on the back of a restroom stall door about a specific guy. SA is such a messy thing legally speaking. In many people's minds actual r@pe is something violent that happens between strangers at knife or gun point. But that's not the reality of SA, sexual harrassment & predatory behavior. You can feel coerced without a literal gun to your head (which is the case if the abuser holds any type of power or authority over you like a teacher, employer, pastor, doctor, etc or is just bigger than you) There is also what's lovingly referred to as Date Grape. The guy (or girl) you're on a date with or just hanging with just doesn't stop when asked. The person who was DR'd will be questioned about *their* choices to be alone with the person, how much they had to drink, what they wore, were they leading the person on, etc. And people will try to defend the DRpist as not knowing any better, being too drunk, not understanding social clues, etc. It really is an emotionally charged issue & hard to prove in court since it's an intimate act between 2 people with no witnesses. If you're in a relationship with a creep & they violate your consent, your character will be under scrutiny if you lodge any kind of formal complaint or go public. It's sad that so many people (usually men but not always) just shrug it off as post coital regrets. No, that's not it. Especially if the creep is a repeat offender & shows a pattern of "not reading social clues" or acting inappropriately with nannies & other employees. Idk if there is anything that can really be done legally here but getting the word out & going public might save the next person who comes into an abuser's orbit some grief. Forewarned is forearmed. It isn't about getting someone cancelled, it's about stopping abusive behavior & warning potential victims. Not sure why that's so hard for some people to understand...
Bc they don't wanna admit they have been in situations without voiced consent 🤷
It is messy, it's even worse for men who don't consent to women. Men feel pressured into having sex too, women with options have power in relationships as they can leave and find someone else. We don't label that as predatory or manipulative.
@@phill6859 of course cis men get pressured into sex without their consent. It is neither worse nor better than what any other person of any identity may experience without their consent. However, I'm going to check your comment because a "woman w options" is not labeled as predatory bc that inherently is not assault. People can be as actively sexual as they want with as many consenting partners as they want regardless of gender
there's also the fact that misogyny and victim blaming is so rampant in these kinds of things, which really fucking sucks
The juxtaposition of hating to see this but excited for your nuanced analysis, Vera.
The “just cite your source” whiteboard reveal mirrors my own feelings on the matter. I’m glad my TikTok tip could bring you (at least minimal) closure on the question. Thanks for making a part 2.
I can’t thank you enough for pointing me to that.
@@CouncilofGeeksif you decide to do a part 3 (or even if you don’t & just want to know the impact of parts 1 & 2) I suspect that Tortise has listened to this video. In the episode that came out today, they kind-of-sort-of acknowledge the source of NG’s account in the last like 3 minutes of the podcast, and they drop a tidbit that they reached out to him for comment in April 2024. In the absence of you bringing the issue to so much light, I don’t think they would have been as transparent. (Also: They also do a better job at providing timeline context to Claire’s account that the therapy podcast probably wasn’t in a position to do with a host who is a therapist rather than a journalist.)
Taken altogether, though, I don’t think my conclusions about the whole situation change based on episode 6.
I'm heartbroken that someone whose words have influenced me deeply for many years, could just be another cleverly disguised wolf.
I was happy when I heard he's openly autistic, because we really need role models to counter the negative stereotypes in media. Now, after hearing what he said to Claire, I just want to scream. Does he know about the statistics about how common it is for us autistics to be victims of SA, and that it's NOT supported in any studies that autistics are more likely to commit SA? Will the rest of the world know?
It seems increasingly likely he knows what he's done is wrong. It's impossible he didn't hear us during and after metoo, and somehow he missed the message. Badly. I thought he understood us. It hurts so bad that he doesn't.
If any of the empathy I've found in this works is founded in truth, he knows goddamned well how important it is that he uses it now and come forward to face the truth and open up a conversation to prevent others from falling into these traps. But of course he won't. He's gonna hide behind his autism and lawyers and cause even further harm. And so I am saying farewell to his works, past and future, I won't be able to stomach it.
Caroline's case began in 2017, so if the daughters are now around the ages K and Scarlett were Gaiman attacked them, they would have been in their teens at most. And the podcast does actually specifically say "Caroline understood this to be a clear reference to the trade where she’d be allowed to stay in the house, with her three daughters, as long as she provided Neil Gaiman with sex on demand."
I deeply appreciate your work on this, Vera. I've only recently come to understand myself as AuDHD at the ripe young age of 47. Part of the unmasking has been to realise times that I was sexually assaulted because my consent wasn't sought or given. I genuinely feel that understanding Enthusiastic Consent, and replacing the old-school "No means No" with "Only Yes means Yes" is especially important for the neurodivergent community. Having had my sex ed (such as it was!) in the 80s and 90s,, I can attest to how lacking (aka absent) any discourse on consent was. I feel like I have so much re-learning to do, but I'm determined to do it. As ever, I am deeply moved when you tell us we are beautiful, valid and loved. You are too, Vera.
i wish there was a
It's devastating to have my favorite writer have these allegations.
I somewhat understand but personally I don't think of Gaiman when I watch Coraline or read The Sandman comics. They'll always be my favorite stories, even if flawed. He's the author, sure, but that's about it.
@@twistedelegance_ That's how I see the Potter stuff. Rowlemort may be the original author but that's all she is to me as I came into the franchise with the films. I don't own the books and likely never will. I'm quite happy with the films and the Stephen Fry audiobooks. So to me the creators are the directors, cast and everyone else. She played her part of course but it was a relatively small part.
I haven't watched this video yet, so I don't know how I'll feel but if it's just more allegations and no proof, or even credible evidence, I think I'll still be okay with Gaiman. If the non-consesual claims turn out to be true, then it will be a different matter.
We’re all so disappointed with him. (To say the least.)
@@Elwaves2925I would not say that the creator of the entire world and the writer of all the books which the movies are based on is a "relatively small part".
the universe of Harry Potter, the characters, the plot, none of it would exist without her writing it first. and yes, she's a horrible person and I would love to be able to just say that I could separate her art from her but every time I see my favorite series of all time I get nauseous because all I can think about is the disgusting hate she's spreading and I can't spend money on any of it because I can't fund her hate.
she's fundamentally ruined her legacy and for me personally, ruined one of my favorite series of all time.
I just can't enjoy any of it the same way any more. it's impossible.
so no, she didn't play a "small part", she played the literal biggest part out of anyone. without her it wouldn't even exist and no audiobook could be created and no movies could be adapted.
I spent a lot of 2024 really getting into his work, declaring him my new favorite author. He really inspired me this year.
It’s upsetting to hear that I spent that time and energy on someone who didn’t deserve it.
I'm autistic and I fucking hate it when people blame autism for shitty behavior.
Thanks for that forceful “f you” because even in therapy, when I said I now have guilt for not enduring more abuse to try harder to get my abuser convicted, I was told that even though I was a vulnerable child, I was still responsible for others getting abused later. Nowadays, I feel safer in the knowledge that I couldn’t change things because of my trauma, vulnerability and youth. I add my own f you to yours.
Wow, that's a new level of victim blaming I hadn't seen before. Sorry you were told that
That therapist shouldn’t have a license.
I know it wasn't a very large section of this video, but thank you anyway for including the bit about men being accountable for their own actions. It's an important reminder that none of us are responsible for "fixing" anyone and we are not responsible for any harm they choose to cause. Honestly, it was something I really needed to hear for my own personal reasons. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for diving in Vera. All of our luminaries are in the end flawed humans, flawed in many ways. It is sad when the mind that brought some of your formative stories in your life, also has darker and harsher sides. But it's not unheard of. We wish they could be better. And the grief we feel is real
But there’s flawed and then there’s doing monstrous things.
This topic is extremely triggering for me due to my OCD (it triggers ruminations for me) and your coverage has been the only coverage i can watch about this bc you take such an unbiased, fair, and kind approach to the situation and the individuals involved. Thank you for your coverage on this topic despite how depressing it is to discuss.
Same, this has been triggering my OCD so bad
Is it actual diagnosed OCD or is it just the obsessive circles that any person gets stuck in if they've got anciety/traumatic history about related to the topic?
Sorry, some people get it wrong so regularly I feel like I have to ask.
@@steggopotamus I don’t have trauma related to this topic. I have OCD which causes ruminations and invasive thoughts that are triggered by this topic. Can’t speak for others though I imagine those with similar subtypes/triggers to me would experience similar. I think what was so helpful about veras coverage was that it was so logical, but at the same time didn’t lack the empathy that a situation like this deserves (which sometimes a fully logical approach can seem to.)
I haven't really kept up with the news about Gaiman, I mostly found out through your deep dive and analysis of the podcasts. Thank you for that by the way. I haven't seen anyone else look as thoroughly at the sources as you did.
I really like watching your videos because you often adress things that I don't think about and it helps me see things in a different light
Never EVER celebrate celebrities. I learned this when I was young and heard of JK Rowling, I am now 17 and I can't worship celebrities anymore. I will say: It still doesn't hurt any less hearing this though!!
People blindly defending their idols terrify me. I know it sucks when your favorite artists did bad things but... some things are more important than my hurt feelings and disappointment, I need to respect the potential victims (or just victims if it was proven)
Wise words. Nothing bad has come out about Gerard Way or My Chemical Romance so... fingers crossed 🤞 ❤🖤❤
^^^ long before that, steven tyler (aerosmith?) forced an ex gf into an abortion and now she's a virulent anti-abortion tyrant. the kind that thinks you're a murderer. because yes, that is the solution, not therapy and "wow no one should have forced me into ANYTHING." jimmy page, led zeppelin? 'partied' with teenage girls. that guy from 30stm, far worse. i can't imagine having some kind of celebrity worship. i'm too old and too bad at ignoring and downplaying things.
i'm a bit sad bc damnit, i liked neil. neil was a big fighter of the anti-lgbt laws, the "kill your gays" laws equivalent in the uk. he didn't just start having queer characters when it became safe or popular; they were always there. not as tropes or the weird 90s american "gay men are prostitutes and WILL die of AIDS" narratives. when my friends were getting beaten or worse for being queer, he was talking about how queer people are fine and to leave us the fuck alone. not many people, especially semi-influential people, would do that.
but at the end of the day, he's a dude with a job. it's a really cool job. the realities of touring and decision making and other shit sucks, but he has a really cool job where he gets to meet people who are amazing. and it's just a job.
you know what else is a really cool job? being a plumber. no, it isn't glamorous. i probably won't meet david tennant. but i DO get a working toilet and sink whenever I want. and I think that's pretty cool, too.
::tyra banks "we were ALL rooting for you!" gif::
I wondered this a while ago if there might be actual shift in society how we see creators of our cherished things. Will we assume " asshole" until proven otherwise? Like sometimes it's they are progressive in one thing and not so in another thing. Similarly as with UA-cam sponsors some people already assume " scammy in some way" even before something about them comes out. Usually it's subscription that is hard to get out of.
@@Acinnn If we demand moral perfection from other people, we will always be disappointed. Where we set the line between "good but flawed" and "asshole" is mostly a personal thing. I think many of us are starved for human connection, so we try to feel these connections with creators in a parasocial relationship. This is a lot more common than it was pre-2000s-partly because social media gives us the feeling we know someone better than we really do. I think it's important to hold creators accountable, and I also think we ought to give creators the right to be imperfect people-just as we do every day for our past selves, who had misbeliefs and misbehaviors. Not doing so is another form of assholery. Humans desperately search for perfect idols to worship, but in the end we only ever find flawed people trying to make sense of the world.
Julia may feel some guilt about not approaching Neil as a friend. But back in 1986, that was just not realistic. If a man did this to you, and you still wanted him as a friend, the default was pretending it didn't happen. The WORST thing that you could do is embarrass a man. He may have misread the situation, but you may have lead him on.
Victim blaming much?
Oh boy! I love victim-blaming! Can you tell me the one about how her clothes egged him on? It's a personal favorite.
I think op meant that if she had come out that would have been the prevailing thought at the time. We know it's stupid, but it's what people would have said.
@@Ikine557Agreed. After all this is only two years after a very popular movie for teenagers included one guy giving his very drunk girlfriend to another guy and when the two of them wake up in the morning they don’t know if they had sex and it is framed as very sweet. When I started college in 1990, we were still debating whether date rape was a thing that existed. I am not defending what Gaiman did at all, but I totally understand why Julia wouldn’t have said anything.
@@TheOtakuKatOP isn't victim blaming. They're saying that "you probably lead him on" is the response Julia would have gotten in the '80s so it's not her fault for not confronting him.
For those of you who, like me, can't bear to listen to these podcasts directly due to how distressing (triggering/retraumatising) that listening experience would likely be... there is a a substack called "the politics of dancing“ which has a couple of articles summarising the content very thoroughly. The author of that substack has similar criticisms about the way tortoise media has handed this, too.
there's also transcripts of the podcasts going around! i'm not sure if i could link it here though...
All I saw was blatant transphobia, and an article on how we need to defend free speech for Nazis because of the mysterious 'they' . I didn't check out any other articles. Two being conspiracy silliness was more than enough.
That might have been the first place I can across the news. Reading has been easier to stomach.
Yes, fuck tortoise media for not being clear about Gaiman's legal team communications! 👿
Really glad you made this follow up! I appreciated the attention you gave to the victims' testimonies.
Also Caroline's story honestly reminded me of cases where a landlord or property owner would leverage their position over a tenant in order to seek sexual favours. Which I would hope most people would view such cases as undeniably nonconsensual, as the threat present is that you're going to wind up homeless if you don't comply. Even if it wasn't Neil's plan to put her in such a position and he was being totally opportunistic, I think it's pretty chilling.
I hope the more these stories are picked up by outlets outside of Tortoise, the more they'll kill off the conspiracy theories that are rampant in Gaiman's fandom currently. It's become increasingly frustrating to see people continue to defend him.
I don’t think it matters if it’s the best case or the worst case scenario. He’s hurting people, has known about it for years, and refuses to stop the harm. That’s all you need to know. This is not someone who will change his behavior to prevent future harm. Predators aren’t mustache twirling villains with lots of big plans and stalking. They see an opportunity and they take advantage of it, regardless what of harm it may cause. Predators are not super human evil. They are normal people putting their desires before anything else. It’s not actually that complicated.
Him using autism as an excuse makes me so angry because it doesn’t mean his memory is faulty. He had people tell him in the past this isn’t ok. Therefore he should know better. Plus his writing shows he completely understands human interactions. If his autism was truly something for him to blame his inability to understand social and physical cues then the relationships portrayed in his stories would bear the same marks. They don’t.
Also, as Vera has said a few times now in both videos - dudes in his 60s and has been doing this it seems since his mid 20s atleast...he should have learned by now after having so many experiences and situations with women how to go about them and getting clear consent (with or without the autism playing a part).
I'm so glad you've covered this. You are the only one I've been able to trust to cover this. I can't trust anyone else online who's made a video so far.
He’s a skilled writer, one of the best. But, reading Sandman a singular issue stood out. Woman being assaulted was never brought to justice when every other wrong was punished. You could argue that he’s depicting an indifferent universe, but, if these allegations are true, it’s very telling why women in Sandman are just there to be victimized.
Neil Gaiman is a popular writer he is also estimated to have a networth of 18 million dollars he's rich. He's not targetting women in his own economic bracket. Predators are opportunists not everyone of Neil's victims are necessarily going to be 20 somethings, they are going to all be at a disadvantage to him in some way. Whether that's age, economic status, mental health status or gender. If the lawyer who represents people like Johnny Depp or Prince Andrew doesn't want to be associated with under handed tactics he's welcome to not use them. If it's public record that he's been retained by Gaiman than it's fair game to mention that Gaiman is comfortable hiring someone who will use under handed tactics to silence victims. As for not saying this Gaiman's legal team's position I think that's semantics. Gaiman probably was presented with what the legal team was going to say was his positions and was asked if he agreed with them. It doesn't really distance him from those positions.
As someone who is autistic, has dated autistic cis men and worked with autistic people professionally. Some portion of the white autistic community do use their diagnosis as a shield for not understanding social cues this is more prevelant in white autistic men but does also occur in white women and queers as well. It is not ableist to bring up it up when it is an on going issue in the autism community. Autism is not an excuse for over stepping personal boundaries. If you are bad at reading social cues in romantic or sexual situations it is on you to learn how to communicate effectively. It is not just for other people's safety but your own. Autistic people in general are at a high risk of being abused because of those social deficits however there are autistic predators who do hide behind their diagnosis.
I honestly can't say I'm shocked that this story has roots and wings.
EDIT: but to say something positive? Your lipstick is 🔥
Same.
And I too love this lipstick.
it's such a cool color
I love that color!
IKR? Vera has great taste. (Though I think she'd look awesome with fringe/bangs.)
Came here to say the same. That lippy is 🥵🥵🥵🥵
I am never surprised by these allegations, cause it seems that many people with power get a sense of holding it over others and use it to get some sort of primal lust out of it.
It's sickening and rotten.
I am a huge fan of the works he has put out, and I think in all the dark matter of his work, some sense of his inner mechanisms are transparent.
He needs to be held accountable and just eat his own making.
I'm not disagreeing with your take because there is truth to it but speaking generally (not specifically about Gaiman), it's also a one sided take. There are also those who are attracted to powerful people, manipulating things to get what they want. When it doesn't go their way they lash out, including making false allegations and so on. Then there are those who jump on the allegation bandwagon because for the attention, thrill, money or whatever reason they have.
Again to clarify, not saying any of this applies to the allegations in question (I've only seen the earlier video at this point), just offering a counter to your points. 🙂
@@Elwaves2925 that's a weird take? Barring outright assault or say coercion via black mail, or a stalker fan just how often is a powerful public figure exploited by a non peer exactly? Cuz usually that's a very different variety of violence, often directed at but not exclusively towards women.
How big is this hypothetical problem? Cus sure it's possible, and definitely has happened but is it a systemic issue for those with power to face from people that they employ?
A celebratory also has not just same ability to say no the more the power they have they can enforce that no legally.In some context they are explicitly obligated to say no and enforce that no. A celebs ability to protect their reputation in most cases outstrips a fans ability to pressure them.
Bosses can and often do retaliate when they don't get compliance to their abuse. What you're doing is victim blaming behind the guise of a hypothetical. Hypothetically how much of a problem is it, is it also a reflection of a systemic problem? Do bosses just get serially harassed by the workers they can fire without cause? 🙄
I'd also have to ask what's the point of speculating on hypothetical false allegations if you believe the allegations at hand?
@@Elwaves2925 If your point is not to suggest the situations you describe apply to the allegations in this video, then what is your point? Because nothing of what you said is a counter point to what OP stated.
@@sofiipote7 I already and clearly said I wasn't applying it to the allegations in this video. Of course it's a counter point and that point is very simple - it's not one sided and the OP's post only states one side.
@@mellowthm566 There's no way to know how often and it's not relevant. As you agree, it's definitely happened and that's what matters to my comment. How widespread it is is also irrelevant. Sure, it's mostly those with the power doing it but that doesn't take away from what I've said.
As for examples, you just have to look at politicians and wealthy figures with golddiggers and those looking to enhance their positions. Also, those fans that take things too far, as you mention. Not necessarily the violent ones but the ones that form unhealthy 'romantic' attachments to celebs, even though it doesn't exist.
You thinking I'm 'victim blaming' is frankly pathetic and shows how little you understand. The rest of your post isn't much better and shows how one sided you are. Your questions and comments are so biased (even with some truths) I see no point in answering them.
I clearly said wasn't talking about the allegations at hand and I haven't said whether I believe them or not.
You're being so disingenous it's not worth continuing this with you as it'll go nowhere.
We can’t know the power he has being the son of one of the most important Scientologist families in history. Scientology is extremely powerful.
I'm glad you're covering this, I appreciate your thoroughness.
As someone who has studied some journalism at uni, I feel that Tortoise is not just bad at reporting, but also to ask follow-up questions that would just clarify so much stuff with all these women’s stories. It all sort of it me listening to Caroline’s story.
A lot of the things that are vague in Caroline’s story could be clarified if they just asked, “How? When? Why? In what sense? What do you mean by that?” So my first question is, why? Why are they not asking follow-up questions?
Though, maybe they are asking follow-up questions, but they are being cut out or just smashed together when one of the reporters does a summary of the account. Then my question is, why? Why do they cut them out? Way more trustworthy if we hear it from the source itself, and it would definitely just naturally make the episodes longer and they didn’t have to bullshit themselves with unnecessary filling.
Ugh. Just occurred to me that I will be raising bar for acquaintances again. That's why you can't have friendship with someone you can't interrogate about understanding what consent is
When the Sandman Netflix adaptation came out, I kept making jokes to my friends about the connections between that and the Netflix' cartoon Bojack Horseman, but at the time I definitely wasn't expecting to see a bunch of evidence appear that Gaiman was also a weird creep in his relationships, similar to Bojack. It's like now these two characters and Gaiman are even more linked in my mind.
I appreciate even more how the Bojack writers portrayed an abuser who is abusive because he's too self centered to change is behavior based simply on how it will affect others, but who also can't perceive himself abusive because he can't see the power he has. It goes against the narrative that abuse is always is calculated, when you don't even need to be that calculated to do a lot of damage.
I have to say the take of the worst vs best case scenario did not sit right with me.
There is this sort generalized idea that r*pists and abusers get off of their victim's suffering, when in reality, what was described in the video as the "best case scenario" is what usually happens in real life. Situations like the ones described with Gaiman are some of the most common: coertion through manipulation and / or power imbalance, which leads to the victim feeling like they can't put a stop to the situation and even if they are able to express discomfort, this is ignored or disregarded by the abuser. I think describing them as "best case scenario" reduces what is actually the "most common scenario" to somewhat "not that bad" in a scale of s*xual abuses.
When I think about these people who ignore the distress the other person is feeling while they are s*xually abusing them, I always think about this: there is no easier situation to tell what the other person is feeling than when you're having s*x: you can see their face, or feel their body, you are as close to them as you can. So, if you still go through the s*xual act not realising at any point that you're making the other person suffer, then it means you are not registering their existence as an individual. You're having s*x like you eat a plate of pasta: you don't ask the pasta how it's feeling when it's being eaten, you just were hungry and so you ate pasta.
Not considering the other person as a human being with their own feelings and will is not particularly "better" than enjoying their pain, imo. But particularly, it does not change the experience of the victim. If I'm being abused, it does not really change whether the abuser is enjoying because of my pain or despite of it. I'm suffering, he's enjoying. The label of worst / best focuses on the predator, instead of the victim: "okay, but what was HE feeling when he abused her?" -- who cares? As I mentioned, most likely he didn't give a sh*t, but whatever his reason was, the actions are the same, and the victim's experience is the same. I understand this video was partially about giving an assessment on Gaiman, but I think that assessment should be based on his actions and not his hypothetical feelings about them. Regardless of whether it was because he did not care or he enjoyed it, he repeatedly abused women who he had power over. That is the worst case scenario, and, as long as we believe his victims, that is what happened.
no one could’ve said it better. it’s so dark 😢
Very interesting take. I think Vera's message is that both the best and the worst scenarios are really bad so calling it best scenario is not at all saying this is a good scenario. Vera expressly mentioned that being slapped hurts the same no matter the intent so i guess you are actually more on the same page than you think
Agree 100%
@@bgranger_842 the slap part now that you mention it I remember and it's a good point. I do get she didn't say it's a good scenario, and I didn't try to imply she said that either. I just think the word "best" it's not a good choice to describe the situation, and more particularly, I believe the difference between the two scenarios is irrelevant. That was mostly my point
@@sofiipote7 i agree. I think the former best scenario (i.e. him not realising what he was doing) was better. However, the current best and worst scenarios are equally terrible. As before, the "best" scenario was not as bad, i think vera tried to keep the best/worst scenario rhetoric but it no longer makes any sense for the reasons you point.
A person with clinically autistic social obliviousness will be oblivious in multiple spheres. It frustrates me enormously when people attribute a pattern of sexual boundary violation to a quirk of their autism, yet they have no such pattern of obliviously violating implicit boundaries in any other kind of interaction. It frustrates me when these poor hapless goofs have an almost magical ability to observe social norms in every setting that isn’t isolating and coercing someone they’re attracted to.
The thing with autism and consent! A youtuber, maybe her name is Paige? did a video a while back about how autistic men are being taught that they are incabable of even learning the skill of reading cues and non-verbal communcation, and therefore they kind of don't have to learn it. It's like boys will be boys with an added becasue they don't understand it's wrong.
Plus, autistic people tend to have our physical boundaries crossed and disregarded a lot more. We are often forced to endure aversive touch and treatment becasue our expressions of discomfort is viewed as hyperbolic or overly dramatic, and we need to stop being so sensitive. So when we grow up, we have also learned that it's normal to challenge other peoples expressed boundaries, since that's how we have been treated.
oh and I was thinking about the movie the imitation game, both Cumberbatch and Knightley portray people that is coded as autistic. Cumberbatch particularly, he plays Alan Turing as a steriotypical savant autistic man. He is lacking social skills, and at a point he sees Knightleys character successfully socialize with a group of people. Becasue he's bonded with her and they kind of vibe with each other a way he usually isn't, bc she's (probably) also autistic and he kinda gets that they are alike. So he's surprised and ask her how she can talk to other people, but when he does everyone just hate him. And her response is that becasue she's a woman she had to learn social skills that he didn't, he was excused and bc he was very smart and a man that was enough merit to still get him to his goals without being forced to learn to talk to people.
Yes! And in my personal experience even before autism was a common diagnosis the idea that the geek/ gamer guy doesn't know any better was the norm.
Absolutelu why i spend a LOT of time teaching my autistic son that you DO NOT touch without explicit permission not even in a friendly way.
You also have nailed something major here with how the work has been done for the predators because they almost don't even need to test out our boundaries because we have been broken down to it already. Remember the old myth about how it is more likely to happen to disabled or autistic kids because we crave affection? In my opinion it's not that it's just that because society has already separated us off so the predator knows we are going to have less defences. I have had people online start straight from the assumption I would sleep with them because my self esteem is low. Nah. I won't fight back _confidently_ because I have low self esteem but I sure as hell won't appreciate the sexual approaches.
this is true, and it's part of the reason why autistic people, particularly autistic women but of course autistics of all genders, are much more likely to be the *victims* of abuse than the perpetrators. which makes it particularly disgusting when autism is used as an excuse or justification for violent or coercive behavior.
Your thoughts on Neil Gaiman and autism convinced me that he knows what he is doing and that he is in the wrong. NG hurting the women he desires/wants some kind of validation from sounds like how he wrote Morpheus’ relationships with women (though not limited to human women). Having a relationship with a being greater than a god is the ultimate power imbalance.
The Sandman works are my favorites of his, and I cannot see how I can return to them or the Netflix series with the knowledge of what their creators character is. The art was real.
Yep, the character of Nada from Sandman has always been a troublesome one, especially in light of all this...a woman imprisoned/punished for millennia because she displeased Morpheus.
It’s been an age since I read it, but what discomforted me at the time (and which I only now realize in retrospect) was the way it seemed to center his guilt and feelings over the fact that he mistreated her over her, as you point out, thousands of years of torture. It’s in keeping with the story since he is the main character, and she’s just a glimpse into his past, rather than a real character of her own, but it really rankles these days.
And you articulated why I’m up at 3Am literally
It is devastating to learn about one of my former favorite author's autism diagnosis (a diagnosis I share and, in my professional life, help others understand and accommodate) in a video discussing how he abused women.
I would have been so thrilled to know this just a couple months ago, and now it's just another story people can use to say Autistic people are predators.
My opinion is that it's actually rare that adult men/ let alone anyone don't understand they're violating boundaries or coercive. Press perpetrators or present their actions aimed at themselves or say a co worker they often say it's that's different or express temporary guilt before trying to justify their misdeeds. They know it's wrong.. they just have a underlying belief or worldview that justifies the behavior as right when they do it or the identity of their target justifies and negates the violence ( well you're my wife, partner, family a woman, a man fill in the blank).
Perpetrators also understand the control they gain with their actions to repeat them again and again. They understand enough to seek that control even if needs/wants can be met without coercion.
The other option is that they're simply estimating their ability to get away with ot and either think that power itself justifies things (which in turn reinforces possible ideology) or don't care - and no that doesn't mean they're a narcissist or sociopath. dehumanization is very common to several prevailing social norms and that's a uncomfortable reality. It's just easier to harm others if you don't think of them as a fellow person.
*Also fuck Gaiman for using autism as an excuse. Bdsm can actually help explicit communication not deter it. Seeking clarity is the typical reaction to miscommunication trauam*
*This is not about Vera btw she's talking about an actual singular public figure. She's a public figure themself and factually saying she doesn't know if Gaiman understands his behavior and she can't say anything about his motives. She nails this.
Dear Vera, thank you for your video. You really helped me process this horrible news.
I had to pause to gawk at the incredible poster of the tree with the lights behind the flip over.
The little whip and your expressions of sincerity, frustration and humor, reminded me of my time as a sex worker, and how the more seasoned people from the BDSM community who had really worked on that side of themselves, and had developed a clear understanding and an acceptance of who they were, were actually the best clients you could have, since they never crossed any borders, always communicated what they wanted and always demanded to know what you wanted or didn't want. The people who prided themselves on being normal, though, and who called the BDSM people perverts, were the ones who so much more often had no idea of what and who they were sexually, and if their sexual behaviour was abusive. I'm so devastated that a genius like Gaiman seems to never really have taken the time and space or chance to develop a mature sexual persona...😰😰😰
the mountain king coming in as vera is loosing her mind.
perfect.
At this point, with the extra info from the "Am I Broken" podcast, I don't really have any doubts that Gaiman acted seriously inappropriately with multiple women. Wealthy and influential white guy taking advantage of fans is hardly unusual in our culture. But Tortoise Media is still sketchy AF (and has ties to even sketchier people). I'm not entirely convinced they're not driven by a deeper agenda, and likely distorting some of the events to make it look even worse. If they were the only source, I'd still be doubtful.
As for the "problem with social cues thing", I'm autistic, and I have a hard time with social cues, which is why I F--KING ASK!
I'm still getting serious "James Gunn / McDonald's Hot Coffee" vibes from this whole thing - that we're not getting the whole picture & that the people pushing this narrative have their own, self-serving agenda.
@@morganbeare1764those are some weird comparisons to this situation but okay...
"It's a thought" Damn, if only she'd done the emotional labour of teaching a creepy ass man to behave normally. How negligent of her not to parent an adult, who is the same age as her. Truly shameful. Jail for 1000 years /s
As an autistic person, struggling with reading a situation doesn't rob you of your ability to ask questions and being attentive to your partner, like... what??? If you know you struggle with that stuff you don't just feebly flop into "woe is me, I cannot bear to put one molecule of effort into increasing my clarity into what is happening in this intimate situation". If you're more worried about annoying your partner with questions than explicit consent, you're not mature enough to be in that situation plain & simple. I very much agree with the power dynamic points you've made as well.
Also good on Claire for calling him out. I literally yelled "YEAH CLAIRE!!" out loud at that part
What I can't stop thinking about is if everyone knew, does it mean Sir Terry knew and ignored it? If your friend is someone writing workshops name rules after, how can you not know? Sorry if that's a bit off-topic, of course the most important thing is not my feelings about fantasy authors, but justice for the victims and stopping the abuser. Thank you, Vera, for not being silent about it all.
I'm willing to bet Pratchett had no idea about this side of Gaiman. They spent very little time in each other's company, at least from how I understand it... Most of the writing of good omens was done at a distance
@@meala23 I hope so, thank you for clarifying it! I'm not the best at researching such information, I must admit. It would require reading through many interviews to check, and I don't have time (I don't read fast enough in English).
@@taniaselfindulgart3847 he was 12 years older than him, I doubt Gaiman took him dating trips
@@mutate34 yes, and usually predators know how to behave in front of people who have more societal power and will judge them. You're right. Thank you.
You'd be surprised. People can be VERY good at hiding all kinds of demons when they want to.
One silver lining of all this is that it highlights that celebrities should not be placed on pedestals, powerful people tend to abuse their power, and it’s a good thing to always remember that.
1:26:11 Given that, in episode 4 of the podcast, Tortoise mentions attempting to contact Gaiman and getting shut down any line of questioning by his PR team, it buries the idea that his legal team would ever be involved in this as it creates the false notion that Gaiman and his representatives refused _any_ contact.
Okay, I don't know if anyone has thought about this possible sort of side note, but I can't help but wonder what Tori Amos is thinking and feeling concerning all of this right about now. As some may know, she and Gaiman are good friends, and Tori mentions him in several of her songs. I was introduced to Neil's work, so to speak, via her music. The irony in this relationship is, if the allegations are true, that Tori founded RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network), the States' largest anti-sexual violence organization. I'm learning that life is messy, the white and black of it all is often a soot grey, black carbon. Even our heroes have dirty hands.
"Behind crystalline irises
Loons can drive
Where the world bleeds white..." -Carbon/Tori Amos
I've been saying this on Tumblr since it first broke. To me it proves that he is perfectly capable of treating women with respect if he thinks they're "important" enough. But I'm genuinely desperate to know what Tori is thinking and whether she has cut him off and whether she is still going to sing his name. He's in some of her best songs. I don't envy her this. 💔
@bethanderson2111 Do you know how long this has been out? I ask because I have no idea. I'm just hearing about it. I love those lines... Space Dog, Carbon, Horses, Tear in your hand, and the list goes on. I feel she's in an impossible situation. I can even begin to think how she's taking this!
Yes, I agree, about him treating Tori with respect and not seeing her as something to use. I even thought it without realizing I did. I was a bueaty queen, um, yuck. (Oddly enough, I have the same crown she wears in that photo of her in high school) I just started thinking last night about college, after posting that comment, the people who knew me then and later when I was married and pregnant. One man commented that my best friend - also pregnant - didn't "look pregnant from the back!" Another man saying I still looked pregnant just a few days after the birth of my first child. And I have hundreds of comments from men like this, as if my worth was in the way THEY SAW ME and not seeing me as important enough to not make such judgmental comments about my body to my face. (Hey! Yes, I did throw one dude out of my house!) I wondered if Neil is the same way, seeing most women as a thing to use rather than seeing them as human beings to respect? How disappointing.
Side note: while I was pregnant, I taught art to young kids, 7 to 18 years. I just reconnected with one who is now in her 30s. She loves Tori! And she plays and sings very much like her, too. We talk about this stuff all the time, the disrespect of women. She doesn't know about Neil yet. 😒
@@fiercest_calm the allegations against Neil do you mean? 3rd July. Initially two women reported in a podcast "Master" from Tortoise. Then a different podcast, Am I Broken, reported allegations from a different woman who had initially spoken to them two years ago but decided not to go forward at the time. Then two more women went to Tortoise and they released a fifth episode. It's so horrible. Details can be found here
muccamukk.dreamwidth.org/1678972.html
@@fiercest_calm and just. Yeah. It's so upsetting thinking that this has all been going on all this time. I'm sorry men talked about you like that. It's not ok 😡😞
Yes I've been wondering about this too...
Thank you, Vera, for covering this. I can't listen to the podcasts, but I can manage to listen to your coverage because of the sensitivy and care with which you handle this topic. And as an autistic woman I think your description of how your friends ask for clarification to the point of other people's annoyance because of a fear of 'getting it wrong' sounds very accurate, at least to my personal situation and that of people I know. I hate that there's men like Gaiman out there who are autistic and seem to use that as an excuse for not respecting people's boundaries or asking for (enthusiastic) consent. And what makes it worse is that there are so many journalists, commentators etc. who seem to be specifically waiting for people like this to call out and to paint autism as something scary and dark. Autistic people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators, but the focus seems to always be on the few that are the agressor.
That "it's a thought" thing was evil. I have a heck of a lot of problems with some of the reporting here but Johnson's comments are plain victim shaming. All victims.
Yeah but Rachel J. is Boris Johnson's sister so they were presumably raised the same. And Boris J is a known predator, conservative letch/ ex UK prime minister cheater and wife beater as well as saying spending govt funds on child victims is " spaffing" money up the wall. Context often helps.
Oh yeah. I'm a survivor of CSA and had some really harass-y behavior by a guy who was in a friend space. I never went to police and the time I did tell someone, I was blamed and called a liar. I still have times that I wish I went to police as a kid, but I also know as an adult that I didn't do anything, I was a child, and it isn't on me to do that now. Shaming survivors for not speaking out about something so stigmatizing and painful is so gross.
Johnson made very victim blaming comments on The Last Leg, essentially implying some women who were asked to wear skimpy outfits and sign NDAs for a charity event should have known that they'd be sexually assaulted. That was 6 years ago and it is very possible she's changed her opinion since then but it does make me wonder how genuine her motivations are. Although ultimately does it really matter how pure her intentions are? I guess not...
This whole Neil Gaiman thing sucks so much. It is also an unfortunate learning opportunity.
So I just wanna speak to those who might feel the tinge of frustration with communication.
If that cute flirty secret social cue game is too much. If you feel like you cant win. Then dont play that game. It is ALWAYS best to just be forward with your feelings and blunt. Even if it turns that person off. If being honest about your feelings and attraction to the point that there can be no confusion and it turns that person off, even if they WERE into you before that... They arent worth dating and they arent worth hooking up with.
Better to be honest and real and single and alone than to maybe be wrong and hurt someone you actually like by making the wrong assumption.
Somehow I'm also feeling bad for Terry Pratchett in all this
Right? I was really looking forward to getting my hands on a copy of Good Omens, looks like I better read it before something unsavory comes out about Sir Terry by sheer association :(
As a note, the breach of the NDA is unlikely to require payment since it is arguably an NDA to specifically cover up wrongful acts that could be legally actionable - there's a doctrine in Common Law of "ex turpi causa non oritur actio" which essentially says that you cannot seek relief against a party that begins with you doing a tortious act. Since, on the information provided, it seems Gaiman specifically requested this NDA to silence her free speech and accept a lowball settlement, rather than have him face the consequences of wrongdoing, the court is likely to either throw it out or propose that she then raise all those actions against him. The latter option would put all the dirty laundry out in public, so there's no way competent counsel would recommend it.
This is so sad and gross. He's been such an ally to not only the lgbtq+ community but also to fan-fic writers.
Sighs.
I feel bad for these women that have been in these situations with him.
But I still want to hear from him about it. And I still want a major news organisation to look into it.
my faith in "good dude" authors has gone Neverwhere!
@@mutate34I've never had any faith in men at all, ever. So this doesn't shake me. I find it gross and disappointing because I've literally spoken to Gaiman for a uni project/paper. But no I'm not surprised. Because yes, by the gods, yes ALL men.
Remember, there is no such thing as an ally, if you're gay all straight people pose a threat to you and vice versa and the same thing goes for any other difference between people because all humans are out entirely for themselves
People in positions of authority think that accommodations given to them are given freely. They want to think that because they don't see the pressure their authority puts on others.
Thank you for taking the time to dive into this. I am sure it was much harder for you to do than for me to watch and I really appreciate you ❤️
Gaiman could easily have assured her that she could consent voluntarily but a refusal would not affect her employment or housing status, which otherwise be guilty of criminal sexual harassment. He could even have put it in writing, like his precious NDAs. A decent man would. He is not.
As an autistic artist, writer, and studying therapist, I promise you someone's body of work does not reflect who a person is. Art work and writing and individual lego pieces that are built onto. A person is the entire finished lego structure. Nobodies work is an entire lego structure of themselves. It's always always always one or a handful of their loss lego pieces that are built upon later. Yes, it's a small token of someone's passing thoughts, past trauma, inspiration etc, but not the entire structure that a fully grown human being is. SO for anyone who feels disappointed that their idol or favorite books etc is tainted by reality, hopefully this helps put things into perspective
Is it odd to say this didn't surprise me? It let me down massively, but didn't surprise me. When I was watching Sandman, the episode where the successful author who pushes for a feminist cast and crew of his work while secretly being a sexual assaulter raised my suspicions that Gaiman was telling on himself.
Thank you for talking about this. I know it's not pleasant to have to dive in to and speak about, but there's not enough chatter about this man and these allegations.
As a photog that works at a TV station, I appreciate how frustrated you get when standards of journalism are not being met. You remind me of old school investigative journalists at the local level. It sucks because when I was in journalism school and going through a rough time, I went to a comic book shop and the owner introduced me to Sandman. His stories got through me a lot and I don't really know if I can pick them up for awhile.
I still think Amanda knew. Prior to this, Neil said their marriage fell apart because of “mistakes” on his part. She seems like a smart woman and would know better that Neil didn’t just cheat on her.
@@Usagi393 Amanda once faked a suicide in front of an unstable ex. She's not a smart woman and honestly Niel defending her on that and her ableism was a red flag in itself.
As for Good Omens season 3, Gaiman was always very active on Tumblr and had answered a number of asks about the scripts. Some of the last interactions he had before fleeing the platform was stating that the first three episodes had been handed over and he was in the middle of writing the rest. I think maybe at least the first 4 scripts were with Prime, and half of episode 6 had been written. David Tennant had mentioned previously at some conventions he’s been to in recent months that he’s read the scripts and that he knows how it ends. Whether that means the production can still go ahead, who knows. It’s scheduled to start filming in January, and the production company that was responsible for creating the opening sequence and other special effects hinted a couple months back that they’ve started working on the production again. Guess we’ll know more closer to January.
Really glad I took him off the pedestal.
Why put people there in the first place? Give our allies their props, but don't expect them to be perfect either. You can have your icons for various reasons, but most Gaiman fans love (either all of- or some of) his work - not the man. And the work hasn't gone anywhere.
Me too. I loved him from like... middle school up until Trigger Warning came out. Then he was awful to Orlando Jones (one of my favorite actors, but also just a human who deserves basic human decency), so I stopped following him entirely.
Re: the autism "defence"
Vera may not have brought up the autism thing in the previous video, but one point she did make that I really liked was roughly "anyone who says clear communication and asking for consent can't be sexy is being silly", and she demonstrated this using a very silky voice.
I'm autistic and what Vera described there is a strategy I've found incredibly useful in reconciling my own anxiety about missing social cues and sexual interactions. I've heard similar from other autistics. I didn't actually know Gaiman was autistic, but there are some many reasons why that's not an excuse.
GO3 still is scheduled to start filming in January and I believe scripts have been submitted but I don’t know how many. Tennant has said that he read them before this dropped. I do know that the former co showrunner’s exit from GO was not because he had other projects because he was scheduled to adapt another of Gaiman’s works and left that project too. I’m inclined to think that Gaiman played a big part in his exit. It was one of the reasons that I stopped being a big fan of Gaiman. I am still a fan of GO tho because of Pratchett and the cast of the adaptation. It’s because of them and that it was never just Gaiman’s work that will let me watch it and even buy the dvds if they ever exist. But except for that I’m done with him. I don’t think I’ll get rid of all of his books but some might be gone yeah. It’s 😢
this is...problematic...I mean...DVDs...? Not blu ray?
@@mutate34😅true, I’m terribly sorry. If Blu rays are available, I’d buy them.
DVDs at least, exist.
@@juliegeorge3808 not for season 2 tho
@@amberhancock2039 yeah, I saw that. Very weird.
I'm autistic and misread situations all the time but I've never had issues with consent because I verbally ask before initiating anything. If I've misread the situation nothing physical will have happened.
41:17 Thank you for bringing up how his lawyer of choice does not matter. Guilty or innocent, liable or not liable, he needs a lawyer who specializes in the kind of allegations he's facing. The guilt/liability of that other lawyer's client(s) does not indicate his.
Before anyone tries to say I'm dismissing these allegations, I'm not. But his choice of legal representation is irrelevant. We know what the allegations are already. The lawyer should match the kind of law involved regardless of the claims' validity.
Most likely he asked his PR team or publicist etc to hire someone and they just got a well qualified individual.
Your Eff You to Johnson and Tortoise was spot on. It kinda sums up why I have so much trouble believing anything they've claimed. That's not to say there is no truth to any of the allegations, just that their reporting isn't making it believable. It causes me to question everything they've claimed. Even moreso when you take into account Johnson's personal issues with Gaiman.
There's also nothing to show Tortoise is good at investigating. If they were they wouldn't need to BS so much of it on the reporting side.
41:00 5k is a goshdang insult. If there's enough truth to pay someone off, there's enough truth to offer something that would be adequate to her situation.
It does ensure that she sets the first real number of the negotiation. But I tell you what, someone does that, I'm telling my lawyer to take the demand.... Also never, ever try to negotiate this kind of thing without a lawyer, no matter how much shame you feel or how the other lawyer tries to pressure you.
It was a ploy.
The rich are famously cheap.
It really bugs me that so many artists i like turn out to be horrible.
There is a big difference between being autistic and struggling to understand or read social cues, and hurting others because you just don't want to care about how much harm you do to other human beings.
That, my friend, is not autism, that's sociopathy.
You know the drama is severe when a youtube essay drops Hall of the Mountain King
I'm in social circles that overlap with Gaiman so that's awkward. The person I know who knows him directly just posted about how disappointing this whole thing is for someone we all thought was a good guy so at least I don't have to censor myself online.
That side story in Sandman about the muse reads different now
Yeah, seriously
That's what my mind keeps going back too. Makes me so upset.
Gaiman told on himself in The Sandman, in a bit they kept from the comics into the show. In Calliope, the writer is praised for his portrayal of women and he talks about how much he cares about feminism, while we know he's holding a woman captive, raping her regularly. In both cases there are parallel, meta details between Gaiman and the writer. In the show his work is even being adapted by Netflix. Initially, I thought of these comments as Gaiman writing it as a caution to himself. But in light of these allegations, yeah. It feels like he was telling.
"You shouldn't abstain from rape just cuz ya think that I want you to... You shouldn't rape cuz rape is a fucked up thing to do... Pretty obvious, just don't fucking rape people. Didn't think I needed to WRITE THAT ONE DOWN for ya..." - From God's Perspective, What, Robert Burnham
I love your lip stick Vera!! The situation sucks, but I'm glad to have found you!
Thank you for continuing to cover this. You are a source I trust ❤ and I think you have covered it sooo well and with so much thought and care. I understand why you dont want to further. But I am glad this issue helped me find your channel. You have an amazing mind and I love listening to your perspectives.
NDA's don't protect people from committing crimes or abuse. Illegal Eagle has talked about NDA's and has said many times that NDA's never protect against hurting people. Lawyers shouldn't be so expensive so the common person can afford to have good representation since the rich love to prey on the common folk so much.
Like another commenter here I have an autistic spouse. I know all autism is different but the idea that he wouldn’t understand a “no” or a power dynamic is laughable. He goes so out of his way not to hurt people that he’ll ruminate on slightly hurting an employees feelings long after they forget about it.
What he wouldn’t be able to do is understand people’s unspoken desires and weaknesses in order to manipulate and seduce them for decades
You can’t claim a 25 year old married man is an inexperienced guy who misread signals. Also, he was married! It’s fucked up he hit on anyone in the first place!
I'm in an odd position regarding the autism thing, because I'm on the wrong side of it. I'm a cis woman, not much younger than Gaiman, and in not my first but my second sexual relationship, a very long time ago, I found myself in a position where I was misreading the negative cues of the man I was with. He was a few years younger than I was at an age where that difference mattered, and it simply didn't occur to me that I was doing anything wrong. I thought it was how it was meant to work. I didn't have any context for men's consent, which reflects badly on me and badly on the time as a whole.
The thing is that I have *never* forgiven myself. I have *never* been able to forget, and I hope to God I have never done it again. Decades upon decades later, I still think about it every day. I don't understand someone who claims to understand consent, and yet didn't learn that lesson the very first time.
Idk if I’m reading this right but did you just admit you basically r*ped someone in a UA-cam comment?
Thank you for the video, Vera!
When an accusation of abuse happens, if it is coming from one or two victims, unfortunately, it could be at least some doubt if they are really speaking the truth. However, when multiple victims come forward to share their experiences with the same abuse perpetrator, it becomes a pattern, especially considering that cases of abuse are usually not isolated incidents. That is why social movements, such as "#MeToo", are so important. A single victim would feel shame in denouncing their abuser and they would probably be accused of lying, especially if the perpetrator is somebody famous.
Something really frustrating is how most of the reliable mainstream news sources are still not reporting about these accusations directly, except by referencing Tortoise Media. I do really hope they are still investigating the accusations themselves. Ironically (or not), I am only hearing reports and discussions about the Neil Gaiman's accusations from his own fans, and I am very grateful for their awareness of the issue, despite their emotional investment in his works.
It's about power plays. It's hard enough to call out that guy you know from work, let alone a celebrity, which Gaiman is. And autism is not an excuse.
I'm a journalist from Germany and was an avid Gaiman reader. Thank you so much for explaining how journalism works and speaking out against conspiracy theories ❤
This all sounds eerily like something I’m experiencing with a famous man. I must go stare into a corner…
I really don't know what to do about this. Over the past 4 years, Gaiman's work has basically become part of my personality. Thank you for being a source that I trust that I could come to to understand what's going on. At the very least I'm hoping that this results in court-ordered therapy
Thank you for your well reasoned and thorough working through of all of this over both videos. I hope you don't have to go anywhere near this again. 💜💜💜
Heartbreaking, infuriating important to talk about. Thank you for keeping this in the news and keeping us updated.. I agree that it would be great if the major news sources would carry the story eventually. And I'd like to say they move a lot faster sometimes. . We're probably all just heartbroken.
I appreciate you bringing up the age gap I know that there can be ages and related to this however when you have a society where women are not equal to men that age Gap can alone be a power dynamic and of course you're right there was so much other stuff going on power dynamic wise as far as employer and etcetera etcetera. 👍
I dont have much to add, i think you covered things very well. I also completely agree with your frustration with them obscuring the source of “our understanding of neil gaiman’s position”. Really poor journalism.