I didn't notice that until you mentioned it. You're totally right. If a person can't slow down enough to get your name right, it's no wonder they messed up your order. Shame that it is this way these days
@@J.C... It absolutely not theft. He has a paper trail for what he asked for and they didn't provide it. Therefore he isn't obligated to pay for it. Also, who says that they ever made anything for his order? They may have had the set that they sent him sitting around and decided that maybe they can get away with sending it, and sent it.
As a self employed person I totally get your frustration. You not only are taking the blunt of the money mistake you're time. Now you have your customers to deal with. I truly get it brother. God Bless.
First off I enjoy your videos. Being a. Race engine builder my self I know the frustration. I give you alot of credit for not mentioning the manufacturer name. I would have so other engine builders know who not to deal with.😡
That is correct been there done that with Jeggs & Summit many times. Its whatever junk they got in the stock room from China is what you get. Many of the companies that sell thru them no longer make their own parts. Like Boeing and Lockheed they sub out the contracts and ship tons of crap back for pennies on the dollar.
@@frankadamczyk1124 Can I ask why protecting a bad company is a "good thing"? I see this, "I won't call them out" type stuff all the time, and I'm wondering why the loyalty to those who obviously don't deserve it. I get nobody wants to be a gossip, but why protect the company that just took a grand from your pocket then lied to you about it?
As a small business owner myself I’d do a charge back and teach the company a lesson. If they did not provide proper product to match sample at said price they deserve the charge back. Your a good person and do not deserve to loose money to big corporate company. Sorry someone as nice as you had to deal with morons like this, seems to be common nowadays though.
I go thru this almost daily in the construction business. My problem is, the customer wants something that take 8-12 weeks to get, after you start the job, then wonder why a 3 week job turned into a 3 month job. Thanks for sharing and I hope the new pistons are spot on!
I know this is obvious to the more clever guys but thanks for pointing this out. It explains why it looks super weird from the start. That's got to be exactly what they did. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't such a colossal waste of everyone's time and resources. You gotta feel for the customer who doesnt get to race this year.
I went through the same sort of thing with a major American piston company when I needed a set of custom pistons. This particular company had made similar pistons for me in the past, but through mergers or buyouts, they changed a lot of personnel. It seemed like nobody there knew what to do.
What a difference 30 years makes ! I was in the biz 1990-93 when all was fine and there was no end in sight. JE was our go to for slugs and never had an issue. Fast forward to today when 70% of all performance companies have either closed their door or have been bought out by Holley or Edelbrock ! We can see the light looming at the end of the tunnel, the end is near! Companies that still exist in the performance arena should be at the top of their game! The stick shift has all but disappeared from the the new car market and the most popular engine to swap has very few options to mate it with a 4,5, or 6 speed ! What a shame that young guys will never get the chance to hear the intoxicating sound of a Muncie M22 gear whine! Keep up your excellent content and strict quality control so you cab take your business to the end of the line! Man, it is spooky how much you remind me of my old boss, Bud Lorow (Cigarette, Hawk Marine Power!) In Europe about 60 to 70% of cars are still manual! VW, Porsche,BMW...etc will stop importing stick cars next year!
The Muncie comment was great! I had a bunch of them in the 60s and 70's. But I had 2 that would shift like a bearing running on a straight shaft without anything else in the way!! I could bang gears like it was an automatic!! There was no sincro hesitation at all!! Man, the good old days!! I sure miss em!!
Daniel, I watch your videos as offend as possible. This is my first comment. I have been a machinist and tool & die maker for over 40+ years and have been retired for 12 years now. I came through the ropes like you did, manual machining first and then into the CNC machining world. Sending a sample is good way to go, but talking through emails just doesn't work. I have found a blueprint is the best way to go. It's simple as you know to program a mill or lathe from a blueprint. Your blueprint is a document that has all the dimensions the piston will ever need. without a blueprint, and even with the sample you sent him, he still has to take time to measure all the dimensions and hope his measurements are correct. It also takes a lot of time to do all these measurements. Providing a blueprint will save time and $$$ costs. JR
It doesn't matter when they lie about what was said. He sent an example and they didn't perform... if they can take measurements, they won't be able to read a blueprint either.
Well you just told all of the viewers that either you don’t race or race competitively or you are a hypocrite. The ones who are in the more competitive classes and following the rule book perfectly are the ones running mid pack. Racing is more about creative interpretations of the rule book. And I’ll promise you that unless the series provides the spec car that the driver shows up and draws a car number out of a hat that the people are “cheating” in car racing. Even if it’s not a literal advantage and just something that gives the driver a mental advantage that breaks the rules they are doing it.
@@Bodie2020 who you posting that towards ???? I know it's not me because my UA-cam picture is me winning on asphalt an in the last 7 months I've won 15 times on dirt 😂😂😂
@@Bodie2020 Guy had a block that wouldn't clean up and didn't want to replace the block. He said go .040" because he will never get torn down because he is not winning anything anyway. Probably was just worried if they scoped the cylinder at tech.
Ray is branching out. He not only does block machining but is also making components. I feel your pain brother. I wonder if it's because we're no longer raising gearheads to work in the industry.
I need an exact duplicate of this piston x 8. That should be clear enough. Don’t want to hear - These are close, these will work. I think a refund is in order, unless you want to keep those pistons, at a deep discount, for a future project.
I understood after watching this once, quickly that he wanted them in +.040" and not 'exactly' like the sample but to appear the same as the sample in all ways besides the OD measurement? Either way, they had a sample they had the very same emails to go back on, and still shipped the wrong thing. I worked for 12 years in the performance and racing business, both in drag racing and circle track racing and there were so many aspects of the business that we ended up doing ourselves because we could never trust or find a reliable source. We did have some good sources but its been 20 years now since I got out. Back then we could have anything we asked for in quantity with a test set being shipped in a week but final production would take a month but likely also got special treatment as well. Incompetence in all fields today is rampant, its not just in engine parts. I see it absolutely everything I deal with and its getting worse every day.
@@VB-bk1lh We are losing all the older guys to retirement, guys with decades of knowledge. They are being replaced with young guys who have never been taught about responsibility or morals, and for a couple of days they are hung over from partying all weekend.
JE cost me a race season on custom pistons for me 2008-9 ish. All because of the machinist.JE did make a free correct set the first time as a consolation.
Had a set of pistons 5yr old new in box . Gudgeon pin only installed freely 3 outta the 8 . WOW [the others could be forced thru by hand ] . Spoke to the maker and received a new box set . I had already balanced the rotating assembly so I consulted the machinist and he approved .
I'm a CNC Programmer by trade. Those pistons don't even look the same, not for the same engine! The fact that you sent in a sample shows that you were doing something to make sure you got what you needed the first time around. I was going to say even before you started going back and forth with the emails after you got the pistons, just go with Weisco, then deal with the bad pistons. It's good that you can still use them for another engine.
@@tedgerstenslager2949 there's no guarantee that the machinist that made it ever saw the piston... but yeah.. I'd agree the rep he dealt with was 150% useless.
as a 25+ year welder fabricator... to this day... I ALWAYS prefer to see the part if it's possible AND get available schematics/BPs/sketches... the more info I have about what I have to fabricate the better. If THE CUSTOMER says "I'll send you a sample"... 99% chance that you need to see the sample to make it right for a reason. I've had countless arguments with the sales reps of places I've worked and gotten higher management involved when they've declined the sample be sent to us.
I feel for you. In my build I got a pair of rods from a top notch place. One of them had a defective bolt that had a fractured thread that flared off into a cutting tool. The bolts were installed and torqued when I got them. Upon removal the "bolt turned metal lathe cutting tool" removed some aluminum threads. The company had me send it back, meanwhile, with their knowledge, I ordered one rod to keep my project on track. I sent the defect back, emailed them I had sent it, and wanted a refund under their 30 day refund policy, and reminded them I already ordered a replacement. They even had to call me about the one I paid for to get info first because the rods are not the same between the two cylinders and they needed to know which one was bad that I was ordering. Yesterday I got a rod replacement back, instead of a refund. So I guess I will have to add a third cylinder to my twin so I can use that rod. I am going to have to use this company in the future, they are the only game in town for my build, so I wont bring the issue up, but, it's a pain that they cant do what they knew they were supposed to do and instead lay that stuff back on me.
Had similar happen with a very expensive set of sbc 6" conrods. Summit wouldnt exchange it or get me "1". Pain in the neck Thankfully my machinist is on a 1st name basis wiht the owner of the co. Upgraded me to H beam on top of it. Really grown to hate people, sucks but true. I trust in my maker, that bills will show up and my pet wont do me wrong.
I saw it a few years back where people seemed to not understand what you were telling them, you had to spell it out, draw a picture, take a photo, do a description and provide a part number and still some people just do/did not seem to have the comprehension. Back in my parents time and my youth in the 60s and 70s people use to sit and talk with one another now we today with all the tech stuff people do not have those personal communication skills like was in the 40s,50s,60s and 70s. People today when they talk they do not seem to know what is said or understand each other. The only thing I would suggest is when you send a sample that you explain to them that the top of the piston valve cut outs , depth/ dimensions and spacing etc. has to be exactly like the top of the sample.
Just one more example of Obymmers lowered education standards. My name is 3 letters only...simple as dog. Know how often I get asked to spell it, repeatedly in customer service convos? Its unreal.
I can only assume this is due to the massive split between the Customer support, sales people, engineer people, and the machining people. I imagine back in the day the same person did all of it. Nowadays everything is translated through 3 or 4 different people before the telephone game gets it back to the guy who does the job. And since that usually allows for more efficient (in terms of productivity/$) work environments, the smalltime guys now have to overload themselves to compete, so even though they understand it, they're so busy trying to keep up with the first group they are more likely to miss it too. I just see this in my job a lot, where things just get lost in translation constantly, but job specialization is required to compete at even a moderate level these days for people to make a living. It's hard to see it going away.
big companies don't take pride in their products nor their service anymore. it's like a take it or leave it attitude. thanks for the video. i feel for ya.
My late brother had a saying. Every time you meet what you think is the dumbest bastard in the world, you encounter someone that just makes your jaw drop. I know you can't mention the manufacturers name because you would be sued into oblivion, but that is what would stop crap like this from happening. A charge back on your card would be appropriate. You were quoted a price for a custom piston, and then told you need a custom-custom piston design to meet your specs. That is comparable to being just a little bit pregnant. I have used Wiseco to make some off the wall pistons, and they have never disappointed me. Best of luck, and NEVER lower your standards because the people you deal with have low standards.
I had been an engineer for nearly forty years prior to retiring a year ago. When email became standard communication interface it took me around 3 months to recognize 95% of those receiving my emails were idiots. I had to re engineer the style of my writing to close up all the loopholes in the communication . And even then I would call the person I emailed and discuss the project to make sure all the important details weren’t missed.
Ive had to charge back several manufacturers over the last few years. Ive also had to send legal letterhead notice with outlined highlighted copies of the information they dont seem to remember. So far they have either not said a thing about the charge back or gotten their act together and made it right
just started viewing this fellow. his shop is so clean. I would let him do my work if my life depended on it and I have only been a sub for a couple days. He does have some great stories. I have run into a little of the same thing. Unless they are like him, an independent that goes by his reputation, they don't care. You could eat off of the floor.
You: I’ll send a piston for reference. Them: Not necessary. You: I’ll send it anyway. Some time later… You: The piston is wrong. Them: That’s why we asked for a sample. 🤯
Gibtech, that is the only piston company I never had a issue with. I can tell ya stories on all of the rest until 2014 when I had cancer and stopped being a engine builder after 20 years, I did not use anything O.E.
12:47 I orded a complete stroked kit(big block ford) 40 over 4.5 stroke. When I received it it had 40 over rings & 30 over pistons! I called they said that's what you ordered. Then I got them to check the order. They did correct it but it took time. I was trying to get ready for racing to begin! Sorry about your experience! Hope things get better😊
The box is Racetec/Autotec. But half a logo on the email showed a different company. That being said, if you call Racetec, you'll get excited because they'll tell you a good price and a great lead time. When it's all said and done, you WILL NOT have your pistons in time, and your bill will be magically higher. Note: I'm a Racetec dealer. You experiences will most likely be worse than mine.
You have to wonder how these places are still in business. Then you realize that people letting them get away with shit like this and not calling them out and holding them accountable is why they continue on. Cheers
It comes down to those people who will read something and turn around and then say well this is what that means and say something entirely different and then get mad if you try to correct them which is why communication is so difficult these days. Thank our teachers' unions.
I feel your pain! Sooooo many people now days don't listen to what you're saying, and about e-mails, so many don't read mails fully, they tend to scan thru it and get the basics but not specifics. Plus, YOU SENT A SAMPLE! How much more clear can you be?! Even if they didn't understand one word in the e-mails the sample would clear things up fully! Keep up the great vids!
i would build the engine with those pistons and worry about it later on, if ever. The idea of an "almost 604" class is just dumb in my mind. Our local track had a 604 appearing class but they only looked at the outside so block #, head and intake were all that was checked, so guys had mostly 383 396 with ported heads and intakes and solid roller cams.
I sent you guys an email acquiring about one of your camshafts. You emailed me back 15 minutes later answering all my questions. It’s a shame that the big companies don’t have that kind of customer service.
*If you don't put their name out their then how do we know to avoid them?* Did you read their reviews? Check the BBB? Consumer affairs? I don't give ANYONE a job until I've vetted them thoroughly. I've been messed around way too many times by this point in my life. You have to sue them it looks like.
I had went through something similar on pistons and heads , gave both companies exact part numbers and made sure they would fit, put lower end together and set heads on ,rotated crank and all pistons hit the heads , ended up just doing some work on combustion chambers got them all to clear but the point is similar to yours, you can give some of these companies exact dimensions and they still screw it up. So I totally understand your point
What about welding up the valve notches being it's a clean forging and recutting them and then lightly face off the top of the piston ? This is not unheard of, I would think it would reduce the time to days not weeks like now. Keep up the good work excellent videos.👍
I will be real curious to see how well Wiseco can replicate those "as forged" valve reliefs. That has to be almost impossible. I wonder if Mahle would have made them for you since they do them in .030.
We are going through the same kind of situation! We build dirt bike race engines, we gave them the engineering specs and feel we paid a premium to build them. The batch we received were all not to spec and are too loose in the cylinder! We’re in the peak of the amateur racing season and can’t build our engines with the horsepower we projected. Companies charge top dollar and not all put out the quality of work we would expect! CP pistons have been good for us but they need to get someone who can build a piston to spec!
"I need the piston head to be an indistinguishably exact replica of the sample piston" is way more specific than "I need to piston to look like the sample". It does not look exactly like the sample, but it does look "like" the sample.
@@kenneth9874 If this went to court, that's not what the judge would say. They do look alike enough to look alike. When special ordering custom made parts, be undeniably specific in what you expect to receive, in writing, and get your quote in writing. It's not enough to say I need them to look like the sample. The fact that you say they look nothing alike and I say the do look alike should be proof enough that too much was left to interpretation and the order was lacking sufficient specificity. Again, if he had written something to the effect on needing the piston head to be an indistinguishably exact replica of the sample, he'd really have a leg to stand on. A judge would absolutely rule in his favor. My recommendation to the video author, take a deep breath, admit mistakes made to yourself, own it, move on, and don't make the same mistake again.
@@SethRocksYou no,all you would have to do is have an independent expert explain to the court that the valve relief cuts are massively oversized and the center strip is much wider affecting the compression ratio, there's no excuse for such piss poor work.
couple things here... to me you were very clear about everything you needed.. it seemed to me that they even responded with the message that they knew it was a custom piston.. the only change was the material of the piston.. not the model.. and then you sent them a model.. im assumingthey got that before they ever tried to make the first one.. at that time they couldve come back and said "hey something is wrong here.. your piston is going to require a complete custom job".. at that time you couldve yeay or Nay and called them out... so they more than hung themselves on this.. almost seems like to me they just pulled up sdomething already stored on their CNC machine and hit 'Go'.. rather than truly build you a custom
So damn frustrating but unfortunately the incompetence of others spoils many of our plans and costs us time and money. The situation is only getting worse as time goes on. Communication should be clear both ways. Yours was clear. "Duplicate the enclosed sample piston and send a set of eight." "Parameters and misc. specs have also been emailed to you." What you received in return was the result of incompetence. I've been in business for nearly forty years and have never seen it this bad.
you are very clear the top has to look like the original looks like not look about like or similar to .i wish i knew what the brand was lol but might have been RaceTec , AutoTec Forged Pistons that has the emailing idiots answerin the pc and messing ye all up . sucks man
We had a job to install covers on wastewater clarifiers like 20 years ago. The manufacturer of the covers came out and measured the clarifiers and had their engineer design a cover. We were the contractor that was awarded the bid to cover the clarifiers and the manufacturer/ fabricator was our subcontractor/supplier. Well not only didn't the covers fit the clarifier tank, none of the parts they sent fit together. You couldn't even have assembled this dome in an open field because the panels were all off size and holes were misdrilled, structural members were the wrong length. What a nightmare. We lost 345K on that job and almost lost our bonding. There was a lawsuit but we didn't recover even 50K. And that was like 2002, chit has been getting worse since. Anymore I'm starting to feel like I need to do everything myself. Not too long ago I had a welder come to replace the square tube on top of a dump trailer. I bought some brand new tube and I got up in the trailer and marked the sections of tube I wanted replaced with a paint stick. I pointed out the paint marks to him. Do you think replaced the marked sections? lmao
I believe you did all that you could. This needs to be pushed all the way up in that company. I would be adamant that the owner needs to know. The reason is for you the customer and for him. He needs to know what is going on within his company. If the owner doesn't see the problem at that point you definitely don't need to use that company again. Others that are using that company would most likely, benefit from your experience with this company.
Did the same thing on my build. I cheaped out and bought supposedly reputable brazillian made pistons to save a couple bucks. The snap rings had no chance of fitting, grooves were cut wrong. Had to re-order JE and wait a few weeks.
Glad to see this email. I will avoid any of this "Tec" nology with my next build. Since you sent a sample, they have no grounds for not giving you a full refund.
I completely agree on the charge back! Your also right the only way to specifically get what you want is to provide a drawing with a sample for quote.. i hate companies that make mistakes and dont own it.. had I of machined those pistons wrong for you, Id be remaking them free, as a rush order, with ups red am delivery..
Damn shame you had to go through this. I have had to go through this crap as well before retiring. Manufactures just don't give a crap. I'm pretty sure I know what you would like to do, but it just doesn't help. Hope your day goes better.
Thx for sharing & highlighting your Ridiculous parts sourcing problems...Incredible how an established American based piston company can so grossly screw up a Sample supplied production job ! ....Obviously That company doesn't share your "Get it right the 1st Time" work ethic....Hang in there if possible 'cause we desperately Need shops like yours..
I think most what your dealing with is those 602/604 pistons are casted valve reliefs. And piston manufacturers are machine cutting reliefs.. Be hard to replicate the look exactly. Unless all you were worried about was valve relief cc...
@@powellmachineinc3179 My mistake, from the video it looks like a cast relief with what looks like a radiused edge. After looking online at them they do appear machined with a radius cutter. Probably not work you want to do. But could chuck them in a mill and radius out the edge to match the stock 604 piston.
I have a somewhat obscure Eurotrash brand car here in the USA and getting the correct parts for it has been an ADVENTURE. One thing is for sure is that I cant afford mistakes because they stopped making so many parts for it :(
Uhhh what? Its just a non oriented piston. It can go in either bank with either side facing forward as long as the rod is centered. Its still a 2 valve head.
Glad you did this video. Getting ready to get rods and pistons for the 4.3L V6 odd-fire. I will need to know which companies to avoid for this exact reason... And in agreement to a comment below... Integrity and attention to detail has completely failed nationwide in all arenas. And frankly, it is due to the attitudes and lack of moral character of the people in those arenas; they think it is OK to promise one thing and deliver another. Absolutely ridiculous! Lying is the new thing to do these days, because people think they will not be held accountable.
I quit selling parts several years ago. The customer now has to provide parts and deal with all that, that was the most profitable and time saving decision I ever made...
The fact that your email says Daniel multiple times and he greets you as David should be your first clue of his reading comprehension lmao.
Lol, I seen that...
I didn't notice that until you mentioned it. You're totally right. If a person can't slow down enough to get your name right, it's no wonder they messed up your order. Shame that it is this way these days
Probably some oversees answering service. That’s all you get these days even live. Usually from the Philippines.
Id love to know what company this was just so I never use them
@@juniorwhelchel6337I hate how people are so afraid to tell us the truth about these crooks. Show us, tell us, let us know!
that crap / incompetence is a nationwide problem across almost all venues.
Absolutely 💯
Like the sec ret ser vice!
Yes it is!!!!!!! Very Very sad!!!!
@@funfun8095more like se cret cer vix
It's beyond me how some people breathe without being reminded.
I would do a charge back without blinking.
Yep 👍
I agree,wasn't his fault so that would be the right thing to do.
That's theft on a custom made product like this. Go right ahead. You're just speed running going to jail.
@@J.C... It absolutely not theft. He has a paper trail for what he asked for and they didn't provide it. Therefore he isn't obligated to pay for it. Also, who says that they ever made anything for his order? They may have had the set that they sent him sitting around and decided that maybe they can get away with sending it, and sent it.
@@davidstjames_ yep, pretty sure it's not custom but on the shelf
As a self employed person I totally get your frustration. You not only are taking the blunt of the money mistake you're time. Now you have your customers to deal with. I truly get it brother. God Bless.
Definitely
You SHOULD be naming names. As well as a chargeback. Otherwise someone else watching this video will get screwed by these guys in the future.
true
That’s what I’m sayin!
Yah consumers should know this stuff. I don't know why they would be worried about pissing them off.
say less brother
That's theft. You're just speedrunning going to jail by doing that
The fact that the manufacturer didnt need the sample was the tell... They had no intention of making a custom piston from the start.
First off I enjoy your videos. Being a. Race engine builder my self I know the frustration. I give you alot of credit for not mentioning the manufacturer name. I would have so other engine builders know who not to deal with.😡
@@frankadamczyk1124Yep!
That is correct been there done that with Jeggs & Summit many times. Its whatever junk they got in the stock room from China is what you get. Many of the companies that sell thru them no longer make their own parts. Like Boeing and Lockheed they sub out the contracts and ship tons of crap back for pennies on the dollar.
@@frankadamczyk1124 Can I ask why protecting a bad company is a "good thing"? I see this, "I won't call them out" type stuff all the time, and I'm wondering why the loyalty to those who obviously don't deserve it. I get nobody wants to be a gossip, but why protect the company that just took a grand from your pocket then lied to you about it?
😂
As a small business owner myself I’d do a charge back and teach the company a lesson. If they did not provide proper product to match sample at said price they deserve the charge back. Your a good person and do not deserve to loose money to big corporate company. Sorry someone as nice as you had to deal with morons like this, seems to be common nowadays though.
*You're.
*lose
I think your piston maker went to the same school as our Secret Service.
😅😅
Sounds like they probably have the same lying boss, too.
DEI controlled machine
@@dragracer4407 Whatever.
-only a very Brainwashed person would bring up MAGA talking points in a performance video. Give it rest-
Thankfully Ray never stopped singing.
great comment 🤣
Last I saw Ray Charles he was welding at Monroe 🤣🤣
We had a Michael Jackson welding at GM PG. Beautiful welds.
I go thru this almost daily in the construction business. My problem is, the customer wants something that take 8-12 weeks to get, after you start the job, then wonder why a 3 week job turned into a 3 month job. Thanks for sharing and I hope the new pistons are spot on!
Yep, I feel ya
I am so sorry that a hard-working honest guy like yourself has to deal with such nitwits! 🤬
U and me both!
Almost like they pulled a piston off the shelf, milled the top down to get the CH and made the valve pockets messed up.
Crazy 🤪
@@powellmachineinc3179 "custom"
Made in China crap
I know this is obvious to the more clever guys but thanks for pointing this out. It explains why it looks super weird from the start. That's got to be exactly what they did. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't such a colossal waste of everyone's time and resources. You gotta feel for the customer who doesnt get to race this year.
That is EXACTLY what 'they' did; the pulled the set of pistons off the shelf and tried to charge for machining.
^..^~~
I went through the same sort of thing with a major American piston company when I needed a set of custom pistons. This particular company had made similar pistons for me in the past, but through mergers or buyouts, they changed a lot of personnel. It seemed like nobody there knew what to do.
Profiteers ruin everything in every industry across the board.
Totally agree whenever there's a takeover or merger the continuity & knowledge is out the window.... Big companies don't give a damn
What a difference 30 years makes ! I was in the biz 1990-93 when all was fine and there was no end in sight. JE was our go to for slugs and never had an issue. Fast forward to today when 70% of all performance companies have either closed their door or have been bought out by Holley or Edelbrock ! We can see the light looming at the end of the tunnel, the end is near! Companies that still exist in the performance arena should be at the top of their game! The stick shift has all but disappeared from the the new car market and the most popular engine to swap has very few options to mate it with a 4,5, or 6 speed ! What a shame that young guys will never get the chance to hear the intoxicating sound of a Muncie M22 gear whine! Keep up your excellent content and strict quality control so you cab take your business to the end of the line! Man, it is spooky how much you remind me of my old boss, Bud Lorow (Cigarette, Hawk Marine Power!) In Europe about 60 to 70% of cars are still manual! VW, Porsche,BMW...etc will stop importing stick cars next year!
Definitely
The Muncie comment was great! I had a bunch of them in the 60s and 70's. But I had 2 that would shift like a bearing running on a straight shaft without anything else in the way!! I could bang gears like it was an automatic!! There was no sincro hesitation at all!! Man, the good old days!! I sure miss em!!
Daniel, I watch your videos as offend as possible. This is my first comment. I have been a machinist and tool & die maker for over 40+ years and have been retired for 12 years now. I came through the ropes like you did, manual machining first and then into the CNC machining world. Sending a sample is good way to go, but talking through emails just doesn't work. I have found a blueprint is the best way to go. It's simple as you know to program a mill or lathe from a blueprint. Your blueprint is a document that has all the dimensions the piston will ever need. without a blueprint, and even with the sample you sent him, he still has to take time to measure all the dimensions and hope his measurements are correct. It also takes a lot of time to do all these measurements.
Providing a blueprint will save time and $$$ costs. JR
Ty! We appreciate that 🙏
It doesn't matter when they lie about what was said. He sent an example and they didn't perform... if they can take measurements, they won't be able to read a blueprint either.
Couldn't figure out how the video offended u then realized you meant often 😂 😂
The level of incompetence of some “professionals” is astonishing.
You are not alone in this problem as many small shops face the same thing continually.
It's unfortunate
These companies will never change, if they are not called out for their BS! They will just keep doing it to other people and stay in business.
RaceTec Pistons out of Huntington Beach, CA. He has his their box on the table.
@@dbblues.9168 I was pretty sure that was it.
We use Omega or Cosworth never any problems.
The title should be when “cheating gets expensive” 😂
First thing I thought 😂
Well you just told all of the viewers that either you don’t race or race competitively or you are a hypocrite. The ones who are in the more competitive classes and following the rule book perfectly are the ones running mid pack. Racing is more about creative interpretations of the rule book. And I’ll promise you that unless the series provides the spec car that the driver shows up and draws a car number out of a hat that the people are “cheating” in car racing. Even if it’s not a literal advantage and just something that gives the driver a mental advantage that breaks the rules they are doing it.
@@Bodie2020 who you posting that towards ???? I know it's not me because my UA-cam picture is me winning on asphalt an in the last 7 months I've won 15 times on dirt 😂😂😂
"Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"
@@Bodie2020 Guy had a block that wouldn't clean up and didn't want to replace the block. He said go .040" because he will never get torn down because he is not winning anything anyway. Probably was just worried if they scoped the cylinder at tech.
Huntington Beach, California should have been all you needed to know. Jussayin.
Name escapes me but think I know who youre referring to. Not many out here
CP pistons?
Wossner would be 4x that price
Looks like Powell Machine Inc Needs to make pistons as well !!
Man....I got too much on my plate already 😒
@@powellmachineinc3179 there are 25 hours in a day if you don't take lunch.
Brother, I would gladly come run your piston subsidiary, but now retired
Nice subtle box behind you there !
Oh yeah!
Ray is branching out. He not only does block machining but is also making components. I feel your pain brother. I wonder if it's because we're no longer raising gearheads to work in the industry.
I need an exact duplicate of this piston x 8. That should be clear enough. Don’t want to hear - These are close, these will work. I think a refund is in order, unless you want to keep those pistons, at a deep discount, for a future project.
Yup
I understood after watching this once, quickly that he wanted them in +.040" and not 'exactly' like the sample but to appear the same as the sample in all ways besides the OD measurement?
Either way, they had a sample they had the very same emails to go back on, and still shipped the wrong thing.
I worked for 12 years in the performance and racing business, both in drag racing and circle track racing and there were so many aspects of the business that we ended up doing ourselves because we could never trust or find a reliable source.
We did have some good sources but its been 20 years now since I got out. Back then we could have anything we asked for in quantity with a test set being shipped in a week but final production would take a month but likely also got special treatment as well.
Incompetence in all fields today is rampant, its not just in engine parts. I see it absolutely everything I deal with and its getting worse every day.
@@VB-bk1lh We are losing all the older guys to retirement, guys with decades of knowledge. They are being replaced with young guys who have never been taught about responsibility or morals, and for a couple of days they are hung over from partying all weekend.
How the EFF could they know that "these will work"!!?? They knew absolutely nothing more about the motor. Incompetance at it's best.
Wiseco has been our go-to manufacturer due to this same problem
I normally go diamond first wiseco 2nd
JE cost me a race season on custom pistons for me 2008-9 ish. All because of the machinist.JE did make a free correct set the first time as a consolation.
Had a set of pistons 5yr old new in box . Gudgeon pin only installed freely 3 outta the 8 . WOW [the others could be forced thru by hand ] . Spoke to the maker and received a new box set . I had already balanced the rotating assembly so I consulted the machinist and he approved .
Good deal
I'm a CNC Programmer by trade. Those pistons don't even look the same, not for the same engine! The fact that you sent in a sample shows that you were doing something to make sure you got what you needed the first time around. I was going to say even before you started going back and forth with the emails after you got the pistons, just go with Weisco, then deal with the bad pistons. It's good that you can still use them for another engine.
Sales Guy making Promises that the machinist can't keep!
When they said they don’t need the piston, that was the red flag
That’s for sure.
@@robertwest3093 Couldnt do it even with a piston to copy. Useless.
a red flag ,fireworks and a kitchen sink
@@tedgerstenslager2949 there's no guarantee that the machinist that made it ever saw the piston... but yeah.. I'd agree the rep he dealt with was 150% useless.
as a 25+ year welder fabricator... to this day... I ALWAYS prefer to see the part if it's possible AND get available schematics/BPs/sketches... the more info I have about what I have to fabricate the better. If THE CUSTOMER says "I'll send you a sample"... 99% chance that you need to see the sample to make it right for a reason.
I've had countless arguments with the sales reps of places I've worked and gotten higher management involved when they've declined the sample be sent to us.
I feel for you. In my build I got a pair of rods from a top notch place. One of them had a defective bolt that had a fractured thread that flared off into a cutting tool. The bolts were installed and torqued when I got them. Upon removal the "bolt turned metal lathe cutting tool" removed some aluminum threads. The company had me send it back, meanwhile, with their knowledge, I ordered one rod to keep my project on track. I sent the defect back, emailed them I had sent it, and wanted a refund under their 30 day refund policy, and reminded them I already ordered a replacement. They even had to call me about the one I paid for to get info first because the rods are not the same between the two cylinders and they needed to know which one was bad that I was ordering. Yesterday I got a rod replacement back, instead of a refund. So I guess I will have to add a third cylinder to my twin so I can use that rod. I am going to have to use this company in the future, they are the only game in town for my build, so I wont bring the issue up, but, it's a pain that they cant do what they knew they were supposed to do and instead lay that stuff back on me.
Had similar happen with a very expensive set of sbc 6" conrods. Summit wouldnt exchange it or get me "1". Pain in the neck
Thankfully my machinist is on a 1st name basis wiht the owner of the co. Upgraded me to H beam on top of it. Really grown to hate people, sucks but true.
I trust in my maker, that bills will show up and my pet wont do me wrong.
Return it with the original invoice and tell them you miscounted.
I saw it a few years back where people seemed to not understand what you were telling them, you had to spell it out, draw a picture, take a photo, do a description and provide a part number and still some people just do/did not seem to have the comprehension. Back in my parents time and my youth in the 60s and 70s people use to sit and talk with one another now we today with all the tech stuff people do not have those personal communication skills like was in the 40s,50s,60s and 70s. People today when they talk they do not seem to know what is said or understand each other. The only thing I would suggest is when you send a sample that you explain to them that the top of the piston valve cut outs , depth/ dimensions and spacing etc. has to be exactly like the top of the sample.
Just one more example of Obymmers lowered education standards.
My name is 3 letters only...simple as dog. Know how often I get asked to spell it, repeatedly in customer service convos? Its unreal.
I can only assume this is due to the massive split between the Customer support, sales people, engineer people, and the machining people. I imagine back in the day the same person did all of it. Nowadays everything is translated through 3 or 4 different people before the telephone game gets it back to the guy who does the job. And since that usually allows for more efficient (in terms of productivity/$) work environments, the smalltime guys now have to overload themselves to compete, so even though they understand it, they're so busy trying to keep up with the first group they are more likely to miss it too. I just see this in my job a lot, where things just get lost in translation constantly, but job specialization is required to compete at even a moderate level these days for people to make a living. It's hard to see it going away.
Its hard to get good help these days
You know it..
My pistons from diamond took 93 days. Season is shot.
the only thing custom about those pistons are the price!
💯
big companies don't take pride in their products nor their service anymore. it's like a take it or leave it attitude. thanks for the video. i feel for ya.
We only use Mahle and Wiseco forgeds
My late brother had a saying. Every time you meet what you think is the dumbest bastard in the world, you encounter someone that just makes your jaw drop.
I know you can't mention the manufacturers name because you would be sued into oblivion, but that is what would stop crap like this from happening. A charge back on your card would be appropriate. You were quoted a price for a custom piston, and then told you need a custom-custom piston design to meet your specs. That is comparable to being just a little bit pregnant.
I have used Wiseco to make some off the wall pistons, and they have never disappointed me. Best of luck, and NEVER lower your standards because the people you deal with have low standards.
This sounds like the service I got from you when I was trying to get a camshaft last year.
More info please
I had been an engineer for nearly forty years prior to retiring a year ago. When email became standard communication interface it took me around 3 months to recognize 95% of those receiving my emails were idiots. I had to re engineer the style of my writing to close up all the loopholes in the communication . And even then I would call the person I emailed and discuss the project to make sure all the important details weren’t missed.
Ive had to charge back several manufacturers over the last few years. Ive also had to send legal letterhead notice with outlined highlighted copies of the information they dont seem to remember. So far they have either not said a thing about the charge back or gotten their act together and made it right
Quality, Honesty, Integrity and Courtesy, hardly exist in America anymore. I feel your pain, keep it up with videos.
They look absolutely fine to me, Ray Charles
just started viewing this fellow. his shop is so clean. I would let him do my work if my life depended on it and I have only been a sub for a couple days. He does have some great stories. I have run into a little of the same thing. Unless they are like him, an independent that goes by his reputation, they don't care. You could eat off of the floor.
Tyvm!! We try hard
You: I’ll send a piston for reference.
Them: Not necessary.
You: I’ll send it anyway.
Some time later…
You: The piston is wrong.
Them: That’s why we asked for a sample.
🤯
The second they responded with "That won't be necessary" for the sample, alarm bells would of gone off big time.
Stevie is denying all knowledge of Ray's pistons , says he didn't see a thing .
This is too common these days.
When this happens at my work, we call this "industrial amnesia". Beyond sad. I feel for you.
You couldn’t have been more clearer and they still screwed up the order, you’re a lot calmer than I’d be.
Ty
Gibtech, that is the only piston company I never had a issue with. I can tell ya stories on all of the rest until 2014 when I had cancer and stopped being a engine builder after 20 years, I did not use anything O.E.
sayin it will "almost" work for you , is like tellin your kids, You almost bought groceries...... any questions they can easily call you.
Definitely
12:47 I orded a complete stroked kit(big block ford) 40 over 4.5 stroke. When I received it it had 40 over rings & 30 over pistons! I called they said that's what you ordered. Then I got them to check the order. They did correct it but it took time. I was trying to get ready for racing to begin! Sorry about your experience! Hope things get better😊
Here I am zooming in on the box to make sure I don't have that brand. Similar looking box, but I don't think so. Lol!
Lol
The box is Racetec/Autotec. But half a logo on the email showed a different company.
That being said, if you call Racetec, you'll get excited because they'll tell you a good price and a great lead time.
When it's all said and done, you WILL NOT have your pistons in time, and your bill will be magically higher.
Note: I'm a Racetec dealer. You experiences will most likely be worse than mine.
lol RaceTec, AutoTec Forged Pistons
@@earlbrown Hencho en Chinna?
When did Racetec jump in with the big guys? I had never heard of them until the last few years.
You have to wonder how these places are still in business. Then you realize that people letting them get away with shit like this and not calling them out and holding them accountable is why they continue on. Cheers
It comes down to those people who will read something and turn around and then say well this is what that means and say something entirely different and then get mad if you try to correct them which is why communication is so difficult these days. Thank our teachers' unions.
I feel your pain! Sooooo many people now days don't listen to what you're saying, and about e-mails, so many don't read mails fully, they tend to scan thru it and get the basics but not specifics. Plus, YOU SENT A SAMPLE! How much more clear can you be?! Even if they didn't understand one word in the e-mails the sample would clear things up fully! Keep up the great vids!
i would build the engine with those pistons and worry about it later on, if ever. The idea of an "almost 604" class is just dumb in my mind. Our local track had a 604 appearing class but they only looked at the outside so block #, head and intake were all that was checked, so guys had mostly 383 396 with ported heads and intakes and solid roller cams.
We just do what we are paid to do.
I sent you guys an email acquiring about one of your camshafts. You emailed me back 15 minutes later answering all my questions. It’s a shame that the big companies don’t have that kind of customer service.
It doesn't happen that way every time, but we do try hard!
*If you don't put their name out their then how do we know to avoid them?* Did you read their reviews? Check the BBB? Consumer affairs? I don't give ANYONE a job until I've vetted them thoroughly. I've been messed around way too many times by this point in my life. You have to sue them it looks like.
The piston box is right beside me in the video
I had went through something similar on pistons and heads , gave both companies exact part numbers and made sure they would fit, put lower end together and set heads on ,rotated crank and all pistons hit the heads , ended up just doing some work on combustion chambers got them all to clear but the point is similar to yours, you can give some of these companies exact dimensions and they still screw it up. So I totally understand your point
The piston company must have let the boss mans son make that set.
Definitely
Or worse, his brother in law.
What about welding up the valve notches being it's a clean forging and recutting them and then lightly face off the top of the piston ? This is not unheard of, I would think it would reduce the time to days not weeks like now.
Keep up the good work excellent videos.👍
Sounds like a Temu special order
HA HA HA NO SHIT!!
I will be real curious to see how well Wiseco can replicate those "as forged" valve reliefs. That has to be almost impossible. I wonder if Mahle would have made them for you since they do them in .030.
There machined, and the new mahle replacement is forged with machined pockets also, this isn't rocket science
@@powellmachineinc3179 Ok. I was just curious. Obviously the first set you got is nowhere even remotely close appearing :(
We are going through the same kind of situation! We build dirt bike race engines, we gave them the engineering specs and feel we paid a premium to build them. The batch we received were all not to spec and are too loose in the cylinder! We’re in the peak of the amateur racing season and can’t build our engines with the horsepower we projected.
Companies charge top dollar and not all put out the quality of work we would expect! CP pistons have been good for us but they need to get someone who can build a piston to spec!
"I need the piston head to be an indistinguishably exact replica of the sample piston" is way more specific than "I need to piston to look like the sample". It does not look exactly like the sample, but it does look "like" the sample.
It looks nothing like the sample
That's ridiculous. It looks like the piston out of a completely different engine, it's that different.
@@kenneth9874 If this went to court, that's not what the judge would say. They do look alike enough to look alike.
When special ordering custom made parts, be undeniably specific in what you expect to receive, in writing, and get your quote in writing.
It's not enough to say I need them to look like the sample. The fact that you say they look nothing alike and I say the do look alike should be proof enough that too much was left to interpretation and the order was lacking sufficient specificity.
Again, if he had written something to the effect on needing the piston head to be an indistinguishably exact replica of the sample, he'd really have a leg to stand on. A judge would absolutely rule in his favor.
My recommendation to the video author, take a deep breath, admit mistakes made to yourself, own it, move on, and don't make the same mistake again.
@@SethRocksYou not at all, the center strip is much too wide and the valve relief cuts are much too large.
@@SethRocksYou no,all you would have to do is have an independent expert explain to the court that the valve relief cuts are massively oversized and the center strip is much wider affecting the compression ratio, there's no excuse for such piss poor work.
couple things here... to me you were very clear about everything you needed.. it seemed to me that they even responded with the message that they knew it was a custom piston.. the only change was the material of the piston.. not the model.. and then you sent them a model.. im assumingthey got that before they ever tried to make the first one.. at that time they couldve come back and said "hey something is wrong here.. your piston is going to require a complete custom job".. at that time you couldve yeay or Nay and called them out... so they more than hung themselves on this.. almost seems like to me they just pulled up sdomething already stored on their CNC machine and hit 'Go'.. rather than truly build you a custom
Seems clear to me!
I thought so!
So damn frustrating but unfortunately the incompetence of others spoils many of our plans and costs us time and money.
The situation is only getting worse as time goes on.
Communication should be clear both ways. Yours was clear. "Duplicate the enclosed sample piston and send a set of eight." "Parameters and misc. specs have also been emailed to you."
What you received in return was the result of incompetence.
I've been in business for nearly forty years and have never seen it this bad.
you are very clear the top has to look like the original looks like not look about like or similar to .i wish i knew what the brand was lol but might have been RaceTec , AutoTec Forged Pistons that has the emailing idiots answerin the pc and messing ye all up . sucks man
We had a job to install covers on wastewater clarifiers like 20 years ago. The manufacturer of the covers came out and measured the clarifiers and had their engineer design a cover. We were the contractor that was awarded the bid to cover the clarifiers and the manufacturer/ fabricator was our subcontractor/supplier. Well not only didn't the covers fit the clarifier tank, none of the parts they sent fit together. You couldn't even have assembled this dome in an open field because the panels were all off size and holes were misdrilled, structural members were the wrong length. What a nightmare. We lost 345K on that job and almost lost our bonding. There was a lawsuit but we didn't recover even 50K. And that was like 2002, chit has been getting worse since. Anymore I'm starting to feel like I need to do everything myself. Not too long ago I had a welder come to replace the square tube on top of a dump trailer. I bought some brand new tube and I got up in the trailer and marked the sections of tube I wanted replaced with a paint stick. I pointed out the paint marks to him. Do you think replaced the marked sections? lmao
It's sad how it is today
Would have been cheaper and faster to source another 880 block @ std and use off the shelf pistons.
Or a brand new set of +.030 pistons and send to line to line coating. Coat as required. They say +.020 is doable.
I believe you did all that you could.
This needs to be pushed all the way up in that company.
I would be adamant that the owner needs to know. The reason is for you the customer and for him.
He needs to know what is going on within his company.
If the owner doesn't see the problem at that point you definitely don't need to use that company again. Others that are using that company would most likely, benefit from your experience with this company.
Ray would've done it by feel and gotten them PERFECT. You clearly ordered what you wanted and received something else.
Sad to hear. At least they didn’t make you square pistons :o
Dont feel bad because you've never seen the inside of Ray's home ....
..He hasn't t eather..
😆😆👍👍😜😜
Did the same thing on my build. I cheaped out and bought supposedly reputable brazillian made pistons to save a couple bucks. The snap rings had no chance of fitting, grooves were cut wrong. Had to re-order JE and wait a few weeks.
Last set of Pistons I got from RAY where the best set of ash trays I ever had!
Lol
Congrats on passing 30K.
Ty!!
i hope you enjoyed your time off, i run stock elim and if i got torn down and it that was that wrong. i would get fined and be banned for a year
Glad to see this email. I will avoid any of this "Tec" nology with my next build. Since you sent a sample, they have no grounds for not giving you a full refund.
I completely agree on the charge back! Your also right the only way to specifically get what you want is to provide a drawing with a sample for quote.. i hate companies that make mistakes and dont own it.. had I of machined those pistons wrong for you, Id be remaking them free, as a rush order, with ups red am delivery..
Nice opening, it took about 10 seconds to click in, but when it did ROFL
Lol
That's messed up on that manufacturer you where perfectly clear and even sent a piston for them to go off of such crooks you deserve your money back
Damn shame you had to go through this. I have had to go through this crap as well before retiring. Manufactures just don't give a crap. I'm pretty sure I know what you would like to do, but it just doesn't help. Hope your day goes better.
no your spot on hopefully they can be used in another application. I think your stuck with them what aworld we live in.
Thx for sharing & highlighting your Ridiculous parts sourcing problems...Incredible how an established American based piston company can so grossly screw up a Sample supplied production job ! ....Obviously That company doesn't share your "Get it right the 1st Time" work ethic....Hang in there if possible 'cause we desperately Need shops like yours..
They made the valve reliefs big enough for a 3" valve on each side.
I think most what your dealing with is those 602/604 pistons are casted valve reliefs. And piston manufacturers are machine cutting reliefs.. Be hard to replicate the look exactly.
Unless all you were worried about was valve relief cc...
There not cast in, the entire lid is machined
@@powellmachineinc3179 My mistake, from the video it looks like a cast relief with what looks like a radiused edge.
After looking online at them they do appear machined with a radius cutter.
Probably not work you want to do. But could chuck them in a mill and radius out the edge to match the stock 604 piston.
This. The incompetent one is the guy that ordered the pistons. Smdh.
Vic and the guys over at Wiseco will get you hooked up.
I have a somewhat obscure Eurotrash brand car here in the USA and getting the correct parts for it has been an ADVENTURE. One thing is for sure is that I cant afford mistakes because they stopped making so many parts for it :(
DSS has always been a great company for us to deal with. "ive never had any luck with unnamed piston company" RT
You are far more honorable than the first manufacturer.
I didn't expect to see a 4-valve configuration, must be some very good flowing heads.
Uhhh what? Its just a non oriented piston. It can go in either bank with either side facing forward as long as the rod is centered. Its still a 2 valve head.
@@mvpolo2k3 Okay, not custom.
when you say , Ray is on the job, I know something went wrong!
Glad you did this video. Getting ready to get rods and pistons for the 4.3L V6 odd-fire. I will need to know which companies to avoid for this exact reason... And in agreement to a comment below... Integrity and attention to detail has completely failed nationwide in all arenas. And frankly, it is due to the attitudes and lack of moral character of the people in those arenas; they think it is OK to promise one thing and deliver another. Absolutely ridiculous! Lying is the new thing to do these days, because people think they will not be held accountable.
I quit selling parts several years ago. The customer now has to provide parts and deal with all that, that was the most profitable and time saving decision I ever made...
So frustrating, keep moving forward.
💯
My divorce attorney would have charged me 6000 for that many emails
Lol
You're being very patient and mature about it. You should say the name.
The piston box is right beside me in the video