ATR systems - Powerplant part 4 - Operations
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 лип 2024
- This is the fourth, and last, part of a series of four videos about the powerplant in ATR aircraft. It is about normal procedures and some of the most “interesting” abnormal situations.
Please do not rely on this video for operational procedures. Different variants of the aircraft have different checklists, and small details might be of great importance. Furthermore, the checklists are revised now and then. Despite my effort to be as exact as possible, I might have made mistakes. If you find errors, please let me know, and I will post them here:
- At 10:30, EFIS cockpit engine #1 "uptrim" light is missing.
Links
Powerplant part 1, general: • ATR systems - Powerpla...
Powerplant part 2, gas turbine: • ATR systems - Powerpla...
Powerplant part 3, propeller: • ATR systems - Powerpla...
Engine start: • ATR systems - Engine s...
Hydraulic system: • ATR systems - Hydraulics
Engine surge and failure: • Wrong decisions - Air ...
Follow Fly with Magnar: / 1140864699685560 - Наука та технологія
Thank you very much Mr Magnor. I'm a first officer on ATR-72-500 in Mongolia. Your videos are very interesting.
I am not a pilot however I enjoy these videos very much. I am here because Mentor Pilot recommended your channel.
A gold mine for an engineer from a different field wanting to learn about turboprops. Thank you very much ! Flown the ATR last time in Brasil, loud and hot.
Excellent overview off the engine failures and the indications...
Amazing job. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
Thank you very much indeed, Capt. Really helpful and valuable to me.
Thanks Magnor for your fantastic instruction this will really help understanding the in-flight procedures on my all touch screen atr sim .
Regards
Dave from Scotland
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent Captain many thanks
Hi Magnor, have been watching this power plant series, really interesting. From your cockpit video and from watching your video about American Eagle 4184, I guess you're flying from Bangkok. I've flown on MASWing's ATR 72-500s in Sabah & Sarawak, love flying in and out of the small airports there.
Awesome! Thank you very useful & knowledgeable.
Great serie of videos! Thxs for sharing it with us. I just noticed that Uptrim light on ENG1 is not ON during second ATPCS test (on EFIS side at 10:30)... But everyone had understood :-)
Thank you for discovering that! I will make a notification below.
Really great video!
Captain Magnar your videos are fantastic! I am new to the ATR and I have some experience(12000+hours) with the Dash 8 100 and 300 series. I am known for very quiet approaches because I increase the condition levers to max as close to approach speed as possible. At about 90 kts the CL can be advanced from Min to Max with no increase in NP with power lever close to idle. At speeds above 120 kts with PL at close to flight idle, when the CL is advanced to max the NP increases to about 1200(100%) because the slipstream is driving the prop. As speed decreases the prop rpm(NP) decreases so that at 100 kts the rpm is about 1000 rpm.
In other words at idle the engine is not producing enough power to spin the prop above idle, so the airspeed(airflow) is providing the energy required to overspeed the prop.
I have never tried to replicate this in the Simulator but I noticed this same phenomenon on all aircraft I have flown, including piston aircraft, that is, that at idle the prop rpm increases with airspeed.
With this in mind, do you think that instead of diving, reducing airspeed to below 120 kts may decrease NP below overspeed?
Imagine this happening over high terrain at min safe altitude!! trading speed for altitude would be the safest thing to do.
The reason he recommended diving was to maintain airspeed and directional control. Obviously if you are too low, you can't do that. But climbing or slowing down is a bad idea because the rudder will lose effectiveness. An extremely high Np is only going to happen at a high power setting. The first thing to do is reduce power to idle. As you say, that should bring it under control.
Note that low pitch in flight is a very unlikely scenario, as it would require both PEC channels and the mechanical overspeed governor to fail.
@@bbgun061 thanks for your reply! I don't know the ATR, at what speeds would the rudder lose effectiveness?
@@bbgun061 if I may pls have a look at 20:13 on the video. Notice the ITT is low on the "low pitch" scenario. the ITT is telling us how hard the engine is working, and at this moment it is not working hard. to spin a prop to overspeed rpm requires energy. ask yourself where is this energy coming from? energy to spin a prop comes from either the engine, or the air flowing through the prop. so which one is it? I have 12000+ hours on the DHC8 plus a few on the DHC6, EMB110, and BE99. I am known for very quiet approaches because I always slow the aircraft down(as per DHC8 FM) before advancing the props to max rpm. In fact at 100 to 105 knots on the DHC8 the prop levers can be advanced from min to max in an instant with no discernable increase in noise. why? because not enough energy in the airflow through the prop, to increase its rpm! I am not trying to discredit anyone but allowing others to see things a bit differently. please do not take offense.
Great job captain
Hi Captain Magnar if possible spoke about the EOB 49 ? Congratulations for videos !!!
Is ATPCS dynamic test in this video done correctly? NP never drops below 20%. I think switch is released to soon...?
Excellent 👍
Atr72-500, PW127F/M .climb power is 2192SHP And Cruise Power Is 2132SHP. Totally understood that climb power is more than cruise power.. after alt green we don’t change power management from climb to cruise till speed buildup (as per sop) . On The Other Hand ATR42-500, PW127E/M Climb Power Is 2160SHP And Cruise Power Is 2132SHP. When We Change Power Management Selector From Climb To Cruise Even When In Climb Phase Or Cruise Phase EveryTime Torque Increases By Changing It From Climb To Cruise. Why?
It's a little secret from ATR's marketing department. When ATR was presenting the new ATR 42-500 to their customers, they promised it would cruise at 300 kt. However, test flights revealed that the cruise speed was a few knots short of the target. The solution was to increase the cruise power. But that's a little secret, okay?
Great! Thanks!
In case of PEC fault, QRH permits to reset it but in case of single channel fault it doesn't permit. Can you please briefly explain this
The PEC has two channels. Only one is in use. The second is a backup. SGL CH means the first channel has failed and the second channel is in use. This has no impact on the operation of the propeller. A PEC FAULT means both channels are out of action.
Hello Capt, what cause for low pitch in flight? Also why do we wait for 2 low pitch/ low pitch indication to engage the reverse?
Low pitch in flight is caused by a failure in the PVM (Propeller Valve Module). This causes the propeller pitch to decrease, allowing the propeller to turn too fast, which results in excessive drag from the propeller.
Reverse produces a lot of drag. After landing, we need low pitch indication on each propeller before we select reverse because without low pitch, the propeller will not go into reverse, but produce forward thrust. If only one propeller has low pitch indication, and you select reverse, the resulting asymmetrical drag will cause loss of directional control.
@@FlywithMagnar sir but in pia crash ..at the end propeller is rotating 5 pecent near low pitch angle?i think propeller should turn fast for low pitch angle!!
Hey Magnar... any specific reason for the ENG 1+2 Flameout trying to relight E#2 first??
Technically, there's no reason. I assume ATR selected engine #2 first because it's the normal engine start sequence.
However, you must use common sense. It's very rare that both engines will flame out at the same time. When an engine flames out, you follow the procedure and try to restart that engine if there's no suspected damage. If that didn't help, and the other engine fails, then you will try to restart that engine.
My airline clarified from ATR and ATR said it was decided to start engine 2 since ACW Gen 2 powers TRU directly. ACW Gen 1 also powers TRU via BTC but direct supply is prioritized.
Hi, great video! How do you select 77% Np on The -600?
Thanks!
You cannot. NP is 82 % during climb and cruise. The 6-bladed propellers generate considerably less noise that the older 4-bladed propellers. Another benefit is that you don't have to change NP from 77 % to 86 % when you enter icing conditions.
@@FlywithMagnar okay thanks for sharing!
Hello Captain, I just want to clarify something about ATPCS operation. The source is DSC.70.4.1.3 Arming Conditions.
It says Uptrim and Autoftr is armed when: PWR MGT (TO), ATPCS pb ON, PL >49, TQ >46%, A/C on Ground
And Autoftr is armed when: PWR MGT (TO), ATPCS pb ON, PL >49, TQ >46%, A/C in Flight.
I have questions if in any case we experienced engine flameout at takeoff right after airborne.
1. Are we considered "In Flight"?
2. If Yes, are we going to have uptrim? since it says in the description only Autoftr is armed "in flight" and uptrim & autoftr is armed "on ground"
That's a good question. The ATPCS is armed when the conditions you mentioned are met. When the ATPCS is armed, there's a green ARM light in the ATPCS pushbutton.
When we set power for take-off, the ARM light comes ON. During normal operations, the ARM light remains ON until we move the power management selector to CLB. The ATPCS was armed on ground, and you have uptrim and autofeather.
When we are on approach, we select the landing gear down and the power management selector to TO. If we then increase power (both TQ >46%), for example during a go-around, the ARM light will illuminate and remain ON until power is reduced or the power management selector is set out of TO. Here, the ATPCS is armed in flight, and you have only autofeather.
The procedure for engine flame out "in flight" relates to a situation where the ATPCS is not armed.
@@FlywithMagnar so meaning uptrim will no longer engage once our wheels lift off the ground. Let's say flameout happened 10ft off the ground right after liftoff, in that case uptrim should no longer activate as what FCOM says. However I've been to many recurrent sessions and was given flameout at takeoff usually after lift off around first 50-100ft off the ground. ARM light was on and uptrim engaged as well as autofeather. FCOM description is quite confusing
No, that is not correct. When you take off, the ATPCS is armed on the ground and remains armed as long as the power management selector is in TO (take off) position. This is not changed until we reach acceleration altitude, which is minimum 400 feet above the runway. Then, we set climb power. Therefore, if an engine fails before we the set climb power, the ATPCS will provide uptrim and autofeather.
It's not about where you are when the engine fails, but where you are when the ATPCS is armed.
@@FlywithMagnar ok i understand now. Its the ARM lignt that will indicate if you get uptrim and autofeather regardless if you are on ground or in flight. But its quite confusing for the FCOM to describe arming functions when the conditions are the same except when it is on ground or inflight
@@cruxader27 there are two arming conditions for atpcs one is on ground another one is in flight
on ground condition:
Within few moments u take ur PL to notch ur PLA > 49 Deg & TQ > 46 and all other conditions are met....u get the arm light right?.... but still the A/C is on ground right?...this means the arming happened on ground right?...for this armed condition u get uptrim and autofeather though u r in flight
now after T/O u take the PWR MGT to climb now the logic for disarming ATPCS is been met so it disarms.
again, you will arm the ATPCS when u take the PWR MGT to T/O and this will happen automatically during descent provided other conditions are met right?....now while descending ATPCS get armed means it's armed in flight condition right?....for this armed condition u will not have uptrim.
Brilliant work as always, Captain Nordal!
One question if I may...?
What to do if we receive the "NAC OVHT" warning after shutdown? Do we just wait to see if it extinguishes during turnaround? Or do we do a crank run? Also, if its a hot day and you really want Hotel Mode for aircon and the same warning announces, can we continue to run it?
Nacelle overheat during may happen during hotel mode operation in tailwind. This requires you to shut down the engine.
When there's nacelle overheat after engine shutdown, there's nothing to do. The engine is already shut down.
The best prevention is not to park the aircraft in tailwind exceeding 10 kt. If that is not possible, don't use hotel mode.
@@FlywithMagnar thanks Magnar! I’ll have to hope the ports have GAUs or alternate parking directions for summer. I’ll be in the Nordics mainly, so it’s usually quite a mild “summer” but inland can be warm and humid which isn’t pleasant in an aircraft for both crew and customers…as you can appreciate!
Dear Magnar, I fly ATR since 1997 and I want to congratulate and thanks for your nice videos and informations!
Regarding this video , I see you wait for 20 seconds after C/L from AUTO to FTR before engaging PROP BRAKE.Is there any reason why? or is just a "limitation" related to the 20 sec from FTR to FUEL S.O.? (in this case should be possible to engage prop brake as soon eng parameters stabilized at FTR and after 20 sec shut down engine). Thanks for clarification and my best rgds. from Italy.
Hi, thanks for your feedback! The reason why we wait to engage the propeller brake is two-fold. First of all, NP should drop below 15%. Secondly, it takes 20 seconds for the oil used to feather the propeller to return to the oil tank. The scavenge pumps are driven by the propeller gearbox. Therefore, it's important to observe the 20 second limit after the last flight of the day. Otherwise, the mechanic might add oil even when it's not required.
Dear Magnar, thank you very much for you quick reply and explanation.I agree 100% with your sentence and I will discuss this important item into my Company as at the moment we do not have any limitation in time to activate “prop brake”.
Your help , competence and availability is really appreciable.THANK AGAIN!.
Alessandro
What does the little coloured stickers mean on your arms?? 4:46 6:35
During the covid pandemic, your body temperature was checked when you entered the terminal building at Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport. After the check, a sticker was attached to your shirt. The color of the sticker changed every day.
Once again captain, excellent! We are using the procedure in OEB 49 for ENG OIL LO PR. Can you please comment on this?
When making the video, I decided to use the current manuals and emphasise that pilots always must follow the latest manuals and procedures. OEB 49 is a temporary procedure that has added a 10 seconds period with the propeller in feather before further action is taken. I don't know why and will ask an engineer about this.
Thanks Captain 👍🏼
Here is the answer: It has happened that oil pressure indication, in some circumstances, has returned after a few seconds in feather. When this happens, it's a sensor issue.
Thanks for following up captain, much appreciated
What are the implications of continuing an approach to land with a PEC fault?
Main effect: No reverse after landing. Secondary effects: 1) NP will be 102%. 2) Propeller pitch will respond slowly to power changes.
Thank you Magnar! Passed my sim check yesterday so I'm good for another 6 months. Need to keep studying systems and maintaining knowledge 😀
Sir is there a fruit shaped indicator light associated with the gauges "going bananas"? 🤷
No, the indicator is a scull with crossbones. LOL
Thank U. 🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷
Power = torque * NP
Atr 42-500 , For RTO Engine SHP is 2400.
For MCT engine SHP Is 2400.
Both Settings : Np 100% And Torque 100% If Not Thermo Limited.
Why Time Limit Is In RTO Power But Not MCT?
To my knowledge, RTO is defined to have a time limit. You can call it a political decision.
great video sir...I have a small opinion... if NP is reduced before TQ reduction through PLA then this will lead to over torquing the engine I don't think it reduces engines power ....kindly correct me if I am wrong 🙏
Yes, that's correct. It can happen in the 42-300 and -320 (ECU equipped) if you forget to reduce torque before you reduce NP during climb sequence. The other ATR variants have EEC, which adjusts torque for you, provided the power levers are in the notch.
@@FlywithMagnar exactly the moment power management changed to climb EEC automatically reduces the engine power
Hi captain Can we use power mct other than emergency for exemple in climb to clear icing condition.
No, that is not allowed. When it comes to icing, MCT shall only be used to escape severe icing. The best escape maneuver is to keep the speed up, even when it means you have to descent. Very often, the icing intensifies when you climb into the top of the clouds. This video describes three icing incidents where the crew made wrong decisions: ua-cam.com/video/_q1F-aXMLHM/v-deo.html
@@FlywithMagnar thank you captain
9:05 - no way, Koh Samui (USM), am I correct? ;-)
Yes it is!
@@FlywithMagnar Great, thank you for reply. I've been flying with Bangkok Air few times in past years, but as time progressed, service on most of my typical routes gradually moved from ATR towards Airbus. BTW: I programed HT1000 GNSS simulation in the past, it is even used in few ATR Full Flight Sims. Would you be interested in testing it? I won't be interfaced to simulator, so it would be only static test, but anyway. ;-) Please let me know if you are interested in.
Yes, that would be great! I'm planning to make a video about the HT1000 in the future.
@@FlywithMagnar OK, so I will try to prepare standalone package for Windows OS, correct?
Yes, that's correct.