Happy you added the "doesn't really matter" bit at the end Ashley as I was all set to point out that the wear you mentioned earlier was negligible. I have been driving over 30 years and was taught engine braking but my instructor at the time also took the time to explain the details to me and point out that even cars of that era were quite comfortable to brake from top gear to zero with no risk of ill effects. As you point out, when the car is driving the engine (most braking scenarios), no fuel is being used so the longer you stay in gear under braking, the less fuel is used. Changing through every gear requires fuel to be used during the change so this isn't a clear benefit and will depend on driving style. Personally I have a hybrid habit with this in mind. I often make one change down as I'm braking (possibly 6th to 3rd for example) which has the benefit of staying in gear to a much lower speed but with only one splash of fuel in the middle of the braking process. If the braking is heavier though I won't change at all or if it's more extended I will make an additional change on the way down (maybe 6-4-2 or 6-3-2 depending on exact speeds and distances). My decisions (once safety and observations are accounted for) are largely based around mine and passenger comfort along with fuel efficiency.
@roostercruiser the tiny splash of fuel I mentioned was what the engine would use to keep itself running while the clutch was in and it was disengaged from the drive. I don't believe it's possible to avoid the engine keeping itself running in these circumstances so that tiny splash of fuel is entirely unavoidable until I re-engage the clutch and let the engine be driven by the car again. As for the amount of fuel saved, it won't be as much as a newer car with a start/stop system but it will be part way there and also leads to a calmer more controlled driving style which in turn leads to further savings which is why I regularly get over 50mpg and have even hit 70mpg on a journey
@@malccraven5276 Why does stop/start feature make it less of a problem - the engine won't turn off between gear changes....? A 5A-FE 1.5 DOHC 4-Cylinder with 9.8:1 Compression Ratio in park has a fuel flow rate of 0.171 cc/s which is 0.000175l a second... So if you change gear quite slow, lets say 2 whole seconds that 'splash' = 0.35ml. Barely a splash to an ant. This not even raindrop amount of fuel is not a contributing factor to your 'good' mpg.
I did have an instructor who said that brake pads were cheaper to replace than gearboxes. However I frequently use engine braking even on the automatic work car with paddle shift, especially downhill to control speed. I replaced my brake pads after 12 years and the gearbox is still fine.
Ok, I don’t do what you suggest and go from 70mph in sixth all the way down to a stop and clutch in before stall. In fact I block shift from sixth to forth (or indeed fifth to third) so that I clutch in much later and I’m not coasting in gear. This is coasting after all - since although you are in gear, the gear is disengaged and you have to actively reengage and the car would not do so for you. I also tend to ‘heel and toe’ even in normal driving and block shifting like this does require me to lift the revs in order to slot the gear without dragging the clutch on engagement. This all requires much more input from the driver but I’m ok with it - It benefits by not labouring the engine so much as you approach stall, particularly apparent in a diesel. You maintain drive which is safer in the event of a shunt and at least in my car (2005 Petrol) it uses less fuel since disengaging drive means the engine requires fuel to maintain idle, whereas staying in gear uses no fuel as Ashley points out does not. Thanks for the video - interesting discussion in the comments as ever!
Yeah I also prefer to downshift revmatch accordingly which some might find excessive, but I too prefer doing that as an extra input since it's all part of the driving experience and having more sense of control along with it being satisfying to feel and hear when doing so which is why I love driving manuals lol
There’s also the added benefit of you being in the right place if the lights change early. Not every deceleration hits a stop by the time you’re ready to apply power again so being in the right area as you’re slowing down allows a bit more control in my opinion. Sure I’m wrong but it seems sensible. I also drive a diesel and being in too low a gear usually causes my turbo to spin up too wasting more fuel along with the torque / power of a lower gear causing the ride to become more jerky too. I think this is one of those comfort things really. Sure either method is fine but it’s what I’m used to now.
@@AK-nb6hz I did an IAM assessment a few years ago and they had me change gear just before applying throttle in most situations and discouraged my changing gear while I was braking. So they would have you brake quite late and hard into up to a junction, then off the brakes select a gear and go. This seemed much more rushed to me than my process and surprised me a bit, but they are all about ‘making progress’ and try to emulate the police driving course - although ROSPA Gold goes even further in this regard. I would still like to try ROSPA Gold in a manual car.
I wouldn't want to slow down from 45 to 0 without any gear being engaged. Having ridden motorbikes I find it good practice to always have a gear engaged until you actually come to a stop. This helps to retain traction and improves safety.
It is a lot easier with a sequential gearbox and a hand operated wet clutch, but I agree. The above scenario in a car I would probably do 5 to 3 then 1 when stopped, maybe 4 to 2 depending on the gearbox. On a bike though absolutely go 5-4-3-2-1 stop and ready to go.
If you are stopping then you won’t be using any gears and so there is no point in engaging them. Unlike a motorbike, a car can block change and it is preferable, while braking, to have both hands on the steering wheel. A motorbike doesn’t require you to compromise on one form of control to use another because your left foot is doing nothing else; your left hand in a manual car is needed for accurate steering or skid recovery.
Before my wife's physical challenges, we always drove manual transmission vehicles. I nearly always down shiftewd when stoipping. I have heard pundits say how rough that is on the clutch. My clutch plates (and brake pads) regularly lasted 90,0000 - 100,000 miles. Proper technique and planning ahead is required. The extra stress on the engine and transmission is minimal, on the clutch negligible, less than to the brake pads. Braking is mechanicle and you're wearing the pads and disks the entire time you're slowing. Using the engine, there is, at most a very brief light slip of the clutch. I'm unimpressed with the whole "the brakes are cheaper" argument, especially when brake jobs are several hundred Dollars, Pounds, Euros, or whatever.
Small talk: One of my mates has a 2 liter, SOHC Mitsubishi. That car is just a sloth. You can stay in gears long, it will tolerate dropping a few gears, or changing up multiple in one go. My Hyundai is a 1.3 liter, SOHC car. I got used to changing up regularly or dropping in sequence. These cars are like night and day. From engine to flywheel, through the gearbox. Marvelous and treacherous. The RPMs: Low RPMs are beneficial for fuel consumption up until a point. Bear in mind; if you constantly strain the engine to put out sudden and elevated power in improper gears, you won't get away with it in crucial situations AND/OR may risk engine and gearbox integrity.. Use the low RPMs when you can maintain that speed, and you have no need to accelerate. If there is a change that risks may suddenly arise, forget saving fuel, be on the lookout! Coming to a stop: if you see that there is a stop imminent, use both the engine brake and the brake for maximum deceleration. Just keep the revs in mind not to stall. If you only need to slow down, apply the same, avoid coasting and try choosing the proper gear to continue on. At least that is what I was thaught and what I try exercising. Don't neglect the braking the engine and the gearbox can exert. They have their cooling and lubrication to assist, on top of the brakes. Use them wisely, spare on maintenance.
This is another issue I ran into when practicing with parents in between lessons. They tell you all of these outdated methods from the 1970s when cars were basically total crap and you had to slow them like this, then you inadvertently repeat some of it on your paid lesson and the instructor asks what you're doing. My instructor when I learned really wasn't a lot younger than my parents and would have been driving in the same era, except he was trained properly in modern methods. In fact, driving parents anywhere is a waste of time. They treat every journey like your first lesson and criticise you for minor things they do all the damn time - I thought that only happened to me, but a quick look online says otherwise.
It's ignorant to call cars from the 70s total crap. They were different to modern cars and required a much broader skill set to drive but there were some amazing cars then, cars that would shock some drivers today at how capable and comfortable they were.
If you rely on brakes you are heading for an accident at some time sooner or later. There was a straight road behind my house that had a little dip before the junction and I once saw a police car careening past the halt mark and onto the major road with devastating consequences.
I learnt these skills, but later in life moved to an automatic, and then an EV which doesn't have a gearbox in the conventional sense. My 16 year old daughter will soon start learning to drive and she doesn't understand why she should bother with a manual gearbox car. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, as it must be a growing attitude in students learning to drive?
Because manual gearbox cars have you more involved, which will lead to you being a better driver. Rather than just being some ape pressing go and stop, you actually have to think about what you're doing.
@@bongsound Manuals are great for that engaged feel, in the same way a V8 sounds too, but not having to use up mental energy on what is after all a technical limitation of the combustion engine - it can only rev so high and can't go to zero or reverse it's rotational direction, means I can focus better on things like steering, braking, situational awareness and be a better, safer driver. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.
With modern organic ceramic & sintered shoe materials options, the drum brakes on classic cars & bikes are a heck of a lot superior to what they were like, when they were new. Because of this, drum brake fade is a thing of the past, these days.
I used to do this, however, since reading Roadcraft, and watching Advanced driver training videos on You Tube (particularly a well known ex Police instructor) "Gears to Go, Brakes to Slow"....
One reason for going down through the gears on old cars is that gearboxes didn't work so well, especially when they were not new. If the situation changed, it wasn't possible to quickly select an appropriate in the same way that you can in a modern car.
When I was first learning to drive with my dad, he taught me to change down through the gears. When I started taking lessons, the driving instructor had to get me out of that habit. My dad was surprised when I told him, he had no idea it was not the done thing any more.
With me I tend to put the clutch in and coast when I'm coming towards a set of lights. I feel I have more braking control as engine braking sometimes slows the car down more than coasting and using the brakes. Sometimes I engine brake when I'm coming towards a set of lights which I think will turn green and there's no one behind me as I won't be pressing the brakes as I'm relieing on engine braking and so no brake lights will come on.
Bad instruction here. How to drive, "gears to go brakes to slow" Written by people in government who don't drive, they have chauffer's. You'd last about a week working for a haulier driving in that manner. Interestingly, automatic boxes don't drop out of gear when the vehicle slows, it changes down to suit the conditions at that time, always in the right gear at the right time. It's not surprising new drivers have accidents is it! Taught this way what do they do in the event of a brake issue, they don't know what to do. Scream I suppose. When you drag yourself into this century and lose the pressing of pedals and push pull of levers which is really antiquated, get an E.V then what, tell them to switch off when slowing down. Ridiculous.
The golden rule here is: "Be in the gear you need to be in for what you're doing". If you're slowing down, then you don't really need to change gear until you're forcing the engine to rotate slower than it likes to, as shown in the 6th gear slowdown in this video. If you can't rely on your brakes to slow you down, get your brakes sorted. For long steep hill descents, the same rule applies: "Be in the gear you need to be in for what you're doing." In the case of a steep descent, that is maintaining your speed and not letting the car accelerate out of control due to the steep descent, so a low gear is the right gear to use for steep descents.
counterpoint, if you need to slow gradually, like if there's a light well ahead, that won't quite be green when you reach it at your current speed, then drop one gear and step off instead of riding your brakes in a higher hear. but yes, coming to a relatively short stop, unless you're driving something which wants special care - and 90% of drivers aren't - then downshifting is just unnecessary fuss and bother.
@@kenbrown2808 Depending on the gear ratio of your car, you can be in 5th down to 20 mph before it’s start to stall and then you can simply clutch if you want to slow down further. There is absolutely no need to lower gear for slowing down unless for the special situation on downhill roads.
You can save a lot of fuel by keeping the engine above the anti stall revs. If you keep 5th engaged until 800rpm the engine management will apply throttle to fight a stall. This is wasteful and should be avoided!
I always go down through the gears to slow coming off a motorway or descending a steep hill. After 46 years driving I've never had to fit a replacement clutch, and I've run several cars well over 100,000 miles; if you time the change correctly you're not going to wear it out prematurely.
@@NegotiableHemingway illogical because each time you change gear using the clutch going either up or down the box, you are introducing clutch friction and thus adding wear. Now, if you want to change gear without the clutch then yes, that will avoid that clutch and brake wear.
If I’m coming off a motorway down a slip road slowing it from 70 on often quite a steep downslope, going down to fourth and then third has the car much more under control and settled than leaving it in fifth (my car) and declutching at 30mph. The car is slowing with you rather than the mass trying to push on.
@@Batters56 I completely agree about that feeling. It's almost as if the car has more lateral traction for a given speed when it's in a lower gear. My suspicion is that this effect is something to do with the differential.
Low compression petrol engines with a heavy flywheel are the worst in that situation, unless you take a lower gear the brakes are fighting a lot of rotational mass. It’s a car specific thing so some won’t understand the feeling you’re referring to.
@@raftonpounder6696 It's more something people in Scandinavia think about, but engine braking can send pulses through the drive wheels enough to affect one's control on ice, compared to pressing the clutch and/or braking. I gather it's a specialised area for countries where icy conditions are more common than in the UK.
@@timothydraper6626 nonsense. You use the clutch smoothly. Don’t just dump it when you change down. Ice and snow here is the same as ice and snow anywhere.
I learnt to drive by using the engine to aid breaking and I continue to do so to this day, no biggy, I do notice a lot less break dust on my alloys when it comes to detailing my car, that had to be a plus.
I'll admit I prefer to engine brake on top of standard braking and mae my way down the gears. Just like when going round a roundabout for example, coasting around it at speed is a big no-no because the car is unstable and being in gear gives you more control. This is the same for me under braking so i will selectively go down through the gears until i'm sub-1000 revs in 3rd gear, sometimes 2nd depending on the scenario, which is when i will declutch for the stop. I guess engine braking is seen as an advanced driving skill these days.
@@jav.611 I think you misunderstood the context of my statement, which was clearly in response to the video and Ashley's comment on in the view of the DVSA and some examiners, downshifting to engine brake could be a negative mark or in the terms of passing your test these days - a non-requirement, this prompted my comment "I guess engine braking is seen as an advance driving skill these days" as if it isn't seen as a basic or required skill, then it now must be catagorised under a more advanced form of driving in the view of the regulators.
@@dalmo001 Just ask any of the newer drivers about using the parking brake for starting uphill, and watch their reaction. (That is if the car isn't equipped with electronic parking brake).
@@jav.611 Wait what, so you clutch and then brake until you are at the right speed? Why not just gear down (and if needed, brake as well). Letting the car roll out is great and increases fuel mileage, could reduce wear on the brake pads as well.
@@jav.611 I don't agree, doing this wastes fuel and once you're used to doing so it does not require your active attention and it happens automatically. Also no need to switch to every gear, if I know I'm nearing a roundabout or traffic signal I could easily go from 5th gear to 3rd of even 2nd, depending on the traffic behind me and the amount of breaking that might be required. The gear to pick depends on the car as well, mine is very light (1L, 3cyl engine) so even at 5000RPM it does not engine brake a lot. Either way I've never learned to drive with the clutch continuesly pressed down until I've gone down to the right speed. Massive waste of fuel and energy and it also occupies your feet, what if you suddenly need to react by speeding up again?
if im coming up to a queue, from a distance, i like to change gear and decelerate slowly. if i do it properly i can use less brakes without straining the engine.
On top of that if the lights change whilst you are decelerating then you don't have to come to a complete stop which has many advantages, including less wear and tear on many components, less fuel use and better flowing traffic. Also saying that a car uses no fuel what so ever is completely false, for a car to use no fuel the engine would have to be off, there is always a minimum fuel use, even just to idle.
@@kilerscn when the engine speed is higher than needed for the road speed it keeps running without using any fuel at all!! As soon as you disengage the clutch it starts using fuel again to keep the engine running!!!
Absolutely. Be in the right gear is always what I was told, and it saves a lot on replacing brakes and disks and, despite what some say about clutch wear, I can't recall the last time I replaced one of those and have drive cars from new to 140,000+ miles. My current Ford Focus Diesel is almost at 100,000 miles on the original clutch and only one change of disks/pads at the front and nothing at the rear.
When i learnt to drive in the army, we was all taught to double clutch due to the vehicles we drove. This was a lot to brake fade and the general lack of brakes lol. Additionally it was from the old synchromesh gearboxes, they were fun!! I could slow a 16 ton wagon with just my gears and not cause any damage. You are so right, cars and vehicles change and i had to adapt my driving to the newer cars that we have now. Great video as ever and great to update my driving. Thank you for taking the time to do these videos great Job!!
Back in the 1980's when I was a HGV fitter I used to drive a Guy Big J6 I think it was called that was converted to a recovery truck. A Cummins engine with, I forget how many gears it had but I had to double de clutch every gear up and down much to the amusement of the drivers of the trucks I was recovering. When slowing down with a fully loaded unit and trailer behind I used to always use the gears to help slowing down. Good job it would not ever drive faster than 35mph.
I spent my formative years learning to power shift, and it paid off when I got to play with a mid 60s "screaming" Jimmy. - mind, synchromesh DIDN'T require either double clutching, or being able to power shift. I could blast through the gears (as much as you can blast through gears when you weigh 20 ton and have an engine that would have 290 BHP IF it hadn't been badly tuned) while everyone else pedaled it like a bicycle. the other reason for shifting down as you slow is to keep track of your gears. if you just drop it out of gear, you have to be a magician to find the gear you want if you need to roll off without stopping.
Double de-clutching was an important skill in vehicles without synchromesh, it was used to match the gear speeds in the gearbox to avoid that horrible gear crunching when you move the gear lever from one gear to the next. You would rev up in nuetral when changing up and rev down (lift off the gass) in nuetral when changing down, takes some practice to get it right but is not necessary in modern vehicles with synchromesh on all forward gears. The last vehicle I drove like this was a series IIA Landrover - had no synco on 1st or 2nd. Had drum brakes all round as well so I know all about brake fade!
Great reply not many will know what or Wye double clutching was necessary or even what it is nice to know some experienced member of the driving club of old school watch these videos Regards Haley
What I have learned from my instructor was to anticipate when coming up on roundabouts. To be looking ahead and slow down to the speed where you don't have to stop and fit in perfectly behind the car that's already on the roundabout. Therefore not having to stop and pull up again. Mostly I change to 2nd or 3rd gear in that scenario, and I was taught to be done with all the shifting and everything before I enter the roundabout so that I can only focus on observing. Of course this is only applicable to roundabouts without traffic lights and/or other stopped cars in front of you. But even with the latter one, you can anticipate it. I love to do it because it makes driving even more fun and it helps the flow on the roads.
As HGV drivers we are taught to stay in the higher gear till as late as possible just as you did. The biggest difference for us is approaching roundabouts where we will change down but usually in block style in order to try and keep a loaded truck moving, rather than pulling away from stopped.
I’ve tried the ‘gear for go and brakes for slow’ method and I really hate it. I don’t feel in control of either my van or car. I use engine braking and double declutching all the time. This ‘new’ way of driving must be the reason I encounter drivers who never seem to be in the correct gear. I think it’s a lazy way to drive.
That's purely a psychological thing not feeling safe and unless you're driving a 4 wheel drive, you're only getting braking on 2 wheels. How would you get on driving an auto where you get virtually no engine braking at all?
@@paul756uk2 I also tend to downshift when coming into a junction. And for me autoboxes are ok, but a manual is much more suited to my personal driving style
You may not think that it constitutes coasting but your use of the clutch would undoubtedly have got you a fail for coasting were you taking a test in the 1970s - such is the way these things have changed (I hesitate to say evolved) over time.
Ironically, as I mentioned in another comment, the actual 1979 Department of Transport Driving Manual (which I have here right beside me) gives exactly this procedure for coming to a stop. It was before the 1970s when this changed. As M. Neal points out, and as the 1979 Manual actually says (because it also says what "coasting" is), it's not coasting until right at the end because the clutch isn't down until step 6 of the (same Manual's) procedure for coming to a stop, which is in order to stop the engine from stalling. If you are braking with the footbrake, the car is in gear, and the clutch is not depressed, as one should be for most of the procedure, you are *not* coasting. Coasting is driving in neutral or with the clutch pedal depressed, which is only the case towards the end of the procedure. "This is unavoidable." says the 1979 Manual. "The important thing is to keep unavoidable coasting down to the shortest possible distance." Page 47.
Passing other slowing traffic on multi lane carriageways you should select a gear to suit your road speed and not be in an inappropriate gear in case you need to take avoiding action. If the other traffic in this scenario is all but stopped, then fine with the depressed clutch.
Reliance on Google maps, I've done this before simply because I couldn't see the junction I was told was ahead that I needed, and so I needed time to assess and so I slowed my speed down incase the turning was sooner than expected and needed to be safer. However, if you're keeping a safe stopping distance, this breaking and then indication shouldn't be much of an impact on your driving, if you're too close, then maybe take it a little calmer, as they may not know where they are going.
If someone is braking that's a very obvious sign that they will want to turn off soon, and it should be all you need to make the appropriate adjustment to your speed. I don't even get annoyed when people only brake and don't indicate left or right at all; it's easy to work out what they're going to do and plan accordingly.
I passed my test around 13 years ago, but I've always been taught to and use engine braking and brakes. Thinking back a few years I had a 2012 ford, a few weeks after owning it came to brake and (apparently) the brake booster had failed. Using engine braking stopped the car from being a very dangerous missle on wheels. I wouldn't say there was anything wrong with someone using engine braking, nor is there an issue with someone not. I have found though using it makes jumping into an automatic a lot more difficult.
I actually fundamentally disagree with you on this one, and it's been a long standing issue I have with the way driving is taught in this country. You did mention engine braking, but it isn't just about drum brake fade, its also about being able to cope with brake failures. Both my wife and my daughter were taught the method of "brakes to slow and gears to go" and because I disagree with it so strongly, I taught them both to use their gears to slow.... subsequent to that, my wife's car actually suffered a brake failure whilst descending a steep hill, because if what I had taught her, he was able to control the speed through the sharp corner at the bottom, slow to a crawl on the level section afterwards and bring the car to a safe stop using the handbrake. If I had not done what I did, I honestly believe she would have been seriously injured or killed... why do driving instructors not teach this, at the very least as an emergency situation???
Sounds like she suffered brake fade due to overheating the brakes on a decent down the hill, the signs are there and usually say use a lower gear whilst descending, though it probably depends where you live or who taught you to drive, in a city there isn't much use to it but I was taught that back in the 80's on using a lower gear on a decent, it also usually tells you in the owners manual, a vast book of knowledge that people don't read.
@@composimmonite3918 Yes... but once he ha taught people around the streets of Liverpool, they are legally permitted to drive anywhere... including the hills of Cumbria... so driving instructors should be teaching people how to cope with all conditions and what to do in emergency situations.
@@tonyb1223 No, the failure was actually due to a mistake by the garage who had serviced the car and just changed the brake pads... but irrespective of the cause of the failure, nothing is 100% reliable and all machines are prone to failures... so to me is should be an absolute essential that those skills are taught as they can literally save lives!
It's hardly like you couldn't work out that you'd need to use the gears in that situation if you usually used the brake to slow down. personally I'd prefer to just make sure my brakes work all the time...
@@elobiretv So... HOW exactly do people "work that out" if they've never been shown? You might be mechanically minded, but the majority of the population are not... as for checking... so did my wife... they were fine when she set off, they failed whilst she was driving.
After riding bikes for a decade I'll be using downshifting to my advantage all the time. Same as double clutching to build the boost, it has a purpose and not practicing stuff like that often make it easier to get wrong.
Same here, bikes defo benefit control wise. When just driving normally I tend not to use engine braking these days though mainly for efficiency due to price of fuel lol.
My driving instructor taught me when coming to a stop let off the gas and then clutch down when the RPMs were getting low. Then when you're completely stopped or the traffic starts moving again is when you switch gears. Then my dad taught me to slow down using the gears and he said it was because I would wear down my brakes too quick by using them so much. I use both now depending on the scenario.
I had it the other way round this was only 21 years ago . I will say my Skoda citygo only needs to be de clutched at 18 my current car is 25mph so I find I don't need to that often
Totally worth it. Even if it's just so everyone within a quarter-mile can hear the gorgeous sounds of the pops and bangs on your remapped Mini as you attempt to heal-and-toe rev-match to the red line on every down-shift as you pull up to the lights outside McDonald's. Gosh they must think I'm so cool.
@@allothernamesbutthis I drove a Nissan with rev match for a while. It's a nice feature, but I disabled it because I enjoy the challenge of perfecting heel-and-toe.
Most people can’t afford modern cars with the latest technology so I’ll keep Rev match downshifting in my 2008 golf and only use the brakes when I feel like I need to stop sooner
Here's the correct perspective on "modern": A Mini Clubman made by British Leyland in 1971 doesn't suffer from the drum brake problems that encourage changing down to come to a stop from high speeds. The sort of British cars where this was problematic were from back in the 1950s and suchlike. A 1971 Clubman has disc brakes. Your 2008 VW Golf has disc brakes too. I've driven cars with drum brakes, and no synchromesh, and starting handles, and manual chokes, and other far-from-modern things. It's a different world to your 2008 VW Golf, and the idea that one needs to drive a 21st century car like I drove those cars is rather silly to someone who has actually experienced the sort of motor vehicle that this is/was a problem with.
RoSPA uses the technique used in the police driving handbook - Roadcraft - which is the technique you teach Ashley. I learned the technique myself when I originally passed my advanced test twenty years ago - originally taught by going through the gears ten years prior to that.
I remember my dad talking about the one day he was on a very steep hill descent and tried double clutching with a crash gear box in an 8-wheeler tipper. He missed one of the gears and couldnt get it back. He was on the brakes but they faded quickly and there was a cross road at the bottom of the hill with a yard being straight on - a dead end. Some how he came to a stop, brakes smoking like mad and he got out to assess the situation and work out where he needed to go, only to find himself perfectly on the weigh bridge of the place he was meant to be delivering to. Those days are certainly behind him and most commercial lorry drivers now! Edit (because some people took my comments to the extreme): I should clarify, brake fade is still a thing for hgvs but not like it was back in the day. A bit like brake fade is still a thing for cars (that dont have ceramics), but not like when cars had drum brakes back in the day.
@@piciu256 my understanding is that with the advancement of disc brakes, engine brakes and automatic gearboxes, the modern truck doesnt really have any real concerns about brake fade
WO WO WO Ashley ! I’m a retired British Army driving instructor, and now a member of the IAM and you do get brake fade on disks all round albeit less than drums. The use of engine braking DOES NOT significantly wear the engine components out,in fact it has no adverse affect unlike disc/pad undue wear and overuse. But the biggest disappointment for me was when you braked AND changed down on a busy road. This will and does cause phantom traffic jams holding us innocent conscientious drivers up. If you’re using friction braking on a motorway / dual carriageway is particular, this is poor driving my friend and a major contributor to congestion. Ever got to the front of a mile long traffic jam and thought, where’s the accident? Where’s the roadworks.Wheres the breakdown? Keep off that pedal people ! Except in an emergency ! Incidentally you were coasting in this post. 😏 Regards
Hi Ashley. Great video. I can confirm RoSPA advocate brakes are for slow, gears are for go exactly as you demonstrate. In fact going down through the gears to slow down would not be considered proper use of the 'system of car control' as separation of the braking (speed) and gear (changing) phases is what's advocated. With the exception of a little judicious brake/gear overlap at the end of braking if advantageous and done under full control as part of a planned approach of course, (that's a whole other topic!!) Combining braking and using the gears reduces control and so is less safe, as it gives you two things to do instead of one which is distracting - why bother? Brakes are to slow was how I was taught to drive in 1990/91. I think it was the near universal adoption of disc front brakes backed up by servo assistance by the early eighties that tipped the balance towards this approach to braking, at least on passenger cars, as brakes were now efficient enough to cope under normal conditions. Now of course we have ABS, traction control, ESP and on many cars all round disc brakes. Driving in snow and ice may present something of an exception, though mainly because if conditions are really bad you want to avoid braking as much as possible- hence the need to drastically reduce speed so you have time to slow almost exclusively on acceleration sense. You'll probably be in a lower gear anyway so not many gears to go down through!
Blimey, if you can’t do two things at once when driving, then you shouldn’t be driving. RoSPA are at odds with the police and Highway Code as they say it’s ok to straight line a roundabout and the police say you can’t. Given the number of wrecked police cars I see, I think I’ll continue to drive how I’ve always driven. I actually got stopped by police yesterday and was told my brake lights weren’t working. They started going over my van and couldn’t find any faults, even with the brake lights. I said that I drive ‘on the gearbox’ and thus don’t need to brake all the time.They argued ‘how do people know if you’re stopping’? I replied that the reducing gap between them and me should be a dead giveaway if they’re paying attention. I asked if the way I preferred to drive was an offence and they had the gaul to say ‘probably’!
@@alanreynolds5985 so you slow down by changing down through the gears? That's a lot of effort when the brakes will do the job for you much more easily as they were designed to. The signal from your brake lights is also quite helpful to reinforce the fact that you're reducing speed - perhaps it might be worth reflecting further on the advice the police have given you, before someone crashes into the back of your van possibly injuring themselves and you. I appreciate the need to concentrate on many things while driving- not sure how braking and changing gear at the same time helps you stay in control of your vehicle and stay safe though?
@@MK-1973 So you’re not sure how braking and changing gear at the same time helps me stay in control of my vehicle and stay safe? Sounds like you’re not sure of much then. Certainly not as sure as I am. If people can’t concentrate enough on the vehicle in front, then it should be them you are addressing not me. My method ensures I’m always in the gear I need. I’ve been a passenger in cars driven by people who have passed in recent years and there seems to be much faffing about attempting to decide exactly where they should put the gear lever. I always know what gear I’m In. Driving standards are poor these days and I see instructors using methods that I do not think are safe. I tire of people thinking they need to fix things that ain’t broke or reinvent the wheel when we all know that round is best. Keep your arty farty methods of driving and look out for my tow bar. Quite a few haven’t, even when I’ve been stationary. Invariably I just get out, look at their car, smile and drive off. I don’t need their bad driving to affect my insurance. Good luck with the Brownie points. Incidentally, I’m 74 and still involved in racing and my reactions, awareness and skill are better than most of the people I encounter daily and that comes from younger racers who I teach, one of whom has just started an apprenticeship at Mercedes in Northampton two weeks ago and was offered the job within 3 hours and before they had finished interviewing the rest of the candidates. On his first day an instructor joked to a third year apprentice that he had more knowledge on his first day.
@@alanreynolds5985 thanks for your reply. Your third sentence says it all really - you're still sure of yourself even though you've been warned by the police and you go on to say that you've been involved in several accidents. Presumably your attitude is they weren't your fault so that's alright then. I'm glad you have a rewarding life involved in motorsport but as I'm sure you know what works well on the race track isn't always suitable for public roads. I'll stick to my 'arty farty' methods of continuing to look to learn and improve my driving based on advice from experts like Ashley which I think has helped keep me and my family safe - no major accidents in thirty years. So the front of my car won't be gracing your tow bar any time soon I hope. Take care.
@@MK-1973 I never said I drive the same on the road as the track did I, so please do not presume things. I’m frequently accused of being far too considerate and too polite, so my driving cannot be that bad. I can’t help if people do not pay enough attention and hit me. Doing it when I’m stationary must surely exonerate me completely. My Son has just arrived for dinner and out of curiosity I asked how he drives his GT80 on the road. It appears he drives like me except he uses heel and toe too. He is if the opinion and the same as me that your method is just wrong. He has raced up until 3 years ago. Your constant use of brakes contributes so much pollution with the brake dust as can be seen on the wheels of the cars that are driven by people like you.
@@PippetWhippet Exactly, two birds with one stone, Ash should get with the times and stop driving outdated manual transmission cars, its all CVT Hybrids now. :P
I believe using the gears to slow down can be more effective than using the brakes in low grip conditions i.e. Snow, ice etc. Would be interested to see some testing on that though to prove me wrong (or right). Again, as others have said, selecting a lower gear for going down particularly steep hills is also a good idea, though I can't imagine many places where it would be required for stopping as modern brakes can surely handle a few quick stops in maximum stress situations.
Agreed but the only time I really see this being usefully would be extreme snowy/icy conditions. Most modern day brake systems can handle stopping in most conditions
@@composimmonite3918 With only 30 years driving artics I have recomended that no one encourage using gears to either slow down or stop. Only the brakes must be used for this purpose. The signs which say use low gears on slopes are there to ensure that you keep the transmission in the speed of the vehicle and not to encourage you to use the engine and transmission to slow you down. Always use the brakes!
@@composimmonite3918 The gear changing exercise to try to match the gears to the speed whilst slowing down is totally unescesary and a complete waste of time. Hope this satisfies your understanding. Even if the obstruction disappears it's far more simpler and efficient to do a box change down that progressing from one gear to the next. Common sense!
Just NO... Engine braking like that can and will lock up the drive wheels, or at least can provide enough resistance that you can start to slide. and there's no mechanism to prevent it.
As a cyclist, changing gear for the subsequent start before stopping is a necessity. Derailleur gears can only be changed when the chain is moving forward, which only occurs when the bike is moving forward or you've lifted the rear wheel off the road (which is difficult to do in traffic). It's usually still *possible* to start off in too high a gear, but it's a struggle. Bicycles with *hub* gears can change while at a stand, but they're not so common these days. Experience teaches the necessary habit. The situation with motor vehicles is of course different, mainly due to the clutch which allows changing gear at any speed, including while at a stand. There is an additional complication with hybrid vehicles, because the drivetrain for charging the battery is through the gearbox on some (but not all) configurations. In that case, selecting a lower gear after you need to declutch from the high gear may assist in regenerative braking. I wouldn't change down one gear at a time, though - two gears at a time may often be better, as then you spend more time in gear and less effort on changing.
It's much easier on a motorcycle, the higher revs allows you to prevent the needle reaching the rev limiter. But yes, it's essential on a bike and there are times where you don't even need to use either brake.
@@EinkOLED Yes but the gearing accounts for the additional revs. Engine braking on a bike like you say though can be a lot stronger than a car, I still like to tap the brakes though just so the brake light comes on.
My instructor taught me that you go down the gears because if the traffic then starts moving you are in a better gear to continue on, as for brake fade this can happen with disc brakes, try the run down from Hartside to Penrith to see how disc brakes can fade.
Definitely, my Dad trashed a set of brakes coming down Llangynidr Moor in neutral. I had been telling him for years to stop doing it. He almost ran off the road.
So, slow to an appropriate speed, select a lower gear, and use the engine to maintain a lower speed, not the brakes. Note that is slow down first with the brakes, not use the engine to slow the car, only to keep it slow.
@@stevesmith7530 engine braking is fine, in fact my theory included one of these to use engine braking. When he said its wearing it down, compare with moving off wear its still minimal. The real wear would start if you go jumping from 5k rpm down a gear it has to bring up a lot of rpms. But as we all go low rps reach around 1k and down a gear. youre wearing the brakes way way more than the clutch. theres no real disadvantage in it, your just saving a bit of brakes
I remember a great many years ago, my father when following another car down a long hill, would comment on the vehicle in front, going down on their brakes rather than their gears.
30 years out of date 😬. I learnt to drive around 15 years ago (big up to Ruth at SurePass in Chester!) and I was taught to use the "brakes to slow & gears to slow" like you demonstrate here. My problem is used to commute on a 2 stroke 125cc and always had to work the box to get decent acceleration and unfortunately that has somewhat translated into my driving style too 🙄
I don't have to gear down! My beautiful Skoda Karoq is fitted with a superb 7-speed DSG gearbox, which always has me in the correct gear. And I don't need to double-declutch either! It is not as much fun as driving my old Mk One Cortina GT nor the best car I have ever had, the Mk One Lotus Cortina. These days sometimes I don't feel as I am in charge, but boy was I glad about the Brake Assist last Wednesday when a car nipped in front of me on a dual carriageway and then slammed its brakes on, the Brake Assist had the brakes on immediately. I think it was an attempt at an insurance scam.
My wife has a bad habit of dipping the clutch round corners. I have tried to tell her how dangerous it is but she wont change. I can now see where it comes from. This idea that 'old habits' are not relevant any longer. I strongly disagree! As can be seen in the other comments here, the are many situations where engine braking is important. Making sure you are in the right gear at the right time is the simple philosophy to follow. You brake before a bend so you should also be in gear for the bend.
Tend to agree, I see a lot of cars braking as they go round bends and roundabouts because they approach far too quickly and then change down to find a gear mid-turn - using brakes only may be the current way but it leads to poor anticipation as you are trying to find gear as you approach a complex situation in my opinion. I'll stick to engine braking while I have a manual as I feel it gives you better control and anticipation approaching lights, turns, roundabouts etc
I've frequently reproached younger drivers of my acquaintance, after they have approached a roundabout or junction at speed and then braked at the last minute - and their response has been "but I was taught to do that". I've found that difficult to believe until now - but I guess I am out of date, having passed my test in 1971 😁
@@slothgoingfast the real jokers are those who race up to the junction knowing that they can't see what's coming from the right until they get there and have to stop anyway- unless of course they intend to just drive out come what may 🤣
You're extrapolating how your car works to the rest and I don't think that's correct. I know some cars that if you are not accelerating in gear they start consuming fuel below 1500rpm for example, so if you change to a lower gear then the consumption would be 0 again. Also the more time you have the clutch pressed, the more fuel you use (in that case the engine is idling and consuming fuel) so if you are in a high gear and have to use the clutch early, that's more consumption. Agreed that the difference could be negligible unless if your drive only in the city where it could matter a bit more, but I think it depends on the car and we can't generalise. But the big point of the video is true, the brakes of modern cars are not going to care if you gear down or not.
You are right but that's only if theres no reason to not be in gear. Say your driving down a hill and you just decide to depress the clutch or select neutral then that is coasting
I've always called it engine braking, probably because my Dad did so too. I use it all the time, and it's one of the reasons I dislike automatic gearboxes!
The thing is: it isn't. Staying in the same gear all the way down to the stall point is *also* engine braking. When it isn't engine braking is when you have the clutch depressed and the engine isn't being driven by the wheels. Engine braking is when the wheels drive the engine rather than the other way around. Ironically, if one comes to a stop properly in the way that M. Neal describes and doesn't press the clutch too soon, one can actually spend less time overall with the clutch depressed and no engine braking happening than one does with all of those clutch depressions to change down. Whilst one is changing gear, one is not engine braking.
@@RushfanUK Not true. In modern cars when you are off the gas pedal the car stops supplying fuel to the engine because the energy from the wheels can still be used to spin the engine itself, especially when downhill.
@@RushfanUK Your info is out of date mate, in carburettored engines of the past that is true but in any "modern" vehicle (I use modern loosely as almost any vehicle in the last 25-30 years with electronic fuel ignition) will stop injecting fuel completely when you're off throttle, and will only start injecting fuel again when you're low in the rev range to prevent stalling or you're on the throttle again.
@@RushfanUK Nope. If there is no throttle demand and the car wheels are driving engine rotation through the gearbox when slowing, then there is no fuel used in an well-controlled fuel-injected car.
Well done on the video Ashley, the eyes are the only thing in a car that should overwork, I was taught to drive this way forty years ago, I have never replaced a clutch or gearbox in my life, and one of my car's reached 200,000 miles plus, well done.
I had gearing down drilled out of me for my blue light training - Information, position, speed, gear then acceleration (or brake) If your foot is on the brake, both hands on the wheel NOT the gear stick - if the traffic/lights ('the information') changes - select the appropriate gear for the speed you are doing. :)
Another point is driving around at 1200rpm in a vehicle equipped with a DMF is just asking for trouble. It shouldn't cause an issue whilst slowing down since the vehicle is providing the momentum, but after that it's best to immediately change gear to something more suitable.
As always, "it depends"... in a modern EFI car, coming to a stop, roll off and brake in gear till time to engage the clutch to stop.... when coming up to a scenario that will start moving because you CHOSE to slow early - something we choose to do a lot of the time as motorcyclists - gear down early and be ready to roll on... keep moving....
I always use the gear that fits the road speed and engine RPM, every car is different and road conditions are often different. So there is no hard and fast rule that fits all. I'll often skip gears going up or down through the gears, like set off in 2nd if I'm going downhill from a standing start, or 5th to 2nd if I'm coming to stop at traffic lights that look like they might change so I'm ready to set off. Depends on the car, engine size, power, even fuel type etc all behave differently, again no hard or fast rule. One of my cars I can change from 2nd straight into 5th, my other car would probably manage 2nd into 4th etc etc But the main thing is be in the right gear for the speed you're doing and to keep the engine revs in the optimum range, be looking ahead to make the changes early and in time for stopping, slowly or moving forward.👍😎 Even advise from a driving instructor will differ from person to person. Our son was taught by his instructor to sit at the lights with his car in 1st gear, handbrake on, clutch in at biting point, ready to set off. When he did this when I was in the car I told him it was bad practise to sit with the engine running and clutch at biting point, his reaction was like 'what do you know, my instructor says its okay!' I explained what the clutch plate and flywheel on his car were doing and how it would over heat, wear out quickly etc you could even smell the clutch getting hot! ⚠️😯 He kept driving like that when he passed his test and sure enough his clutch failed very early!
I drive a manual and enjoy downshifting a lot. It's super useful if you're slowing down but not necessary if you're coming to a stop. For example coming to a roundabout, I'm not planning on stopping unless I have to so downshifting gradually to second and being ready to stop or being in the correct gear to get power can be useful. Coming to a stop is a completely different story though but I still downshift when slowing if it's suitable. Also, not all of us have fancy expensive brake pads and you can reduce wear a decent bit with engine breaking.
"Gears to go, brakes to slow". Ok, like many rules it has exceptions, but for the overwhelming majority of drivers in the overwhelming majority of circumstances there are good reasons that little phrase is taught.
@@seemorebeer2848 No, I would not. I would select an appropriate gear beforehand, which in my case could be slower than walking pace down a 40 degree slope. Perhaps "brakes to create slow" would be more to your taste?:) Although to slow is used in the sense of a verb, a doing word, in the simple mantra, rather than as an adjective, a being word. The problem appears to be what people define as engine braking. Engine braking to change to an appropriate speed = generally bad, engine braking to maintain a suitable speed = good.
I can confirm that both IAM (I hold a Masters Diploma with Distinction) & Rospa (I have a Gold Certificate) totally advocate the Brakes to slow Gears to go routine. This also means that when slowing down you are retarding all 4 wheels (in a 2 wheel drive car) which vastly improves braking performance & stability, whereas using gears to slow only retards the 2 driven wheels which is inefficient & unstable, but also fails to give due warning to following traffic by showing brakelights. I retired from driving instruction in 2015 but never once taught a pupil to use the gearbox to slow, despite several parents telling me I was teaching their offspring the wrong technique.
I feel like you, and a lot of others are making a weird straw man argument here, people don’t use engine braking exclusively to slow down, they slow down on their brakes and select a lower gear to supplement their braking, and be in the correct gear to react quickly to changes in the road ahead.
Those ancient gear things will soon be consigned to history... Gear stopping in my old jalopy works n I get a sad sense of fun knowing I'm confusing drivers behind by no brake lights showing. keeping clutch down stretches cable...
I'll definitely have to give this a try. Used to driving an old Escort van with rear drums so engine braking is a must. Carried the habit over into the Passat. Always learn something from watching your videos. If you can improve just one driver you've made the roads just that little bit safer. Top man!
For all the people asking (even though he explained it in the video): You don't need to gear down when stopping, the second you push the clutch down (after braking first obviously) and coming to a stop, it's all over. Just proceed to fully stop and select first gear and move off again whenever you can.
I’m disagreeing, the engine braking can help the brake and keep them cooler, and assist the braking. The road inertia keeps the engine turning, negating the need for the ecu to pump in fuel to keep it spinning. The engine has a massive radiator to dump heat., better than the brakes I will always change down for control and fuel efficiency
@Byron Deithrick, I would agree, I've always changed down for similar reasons to yourself, I feel much more in control of my car, also because I drive a tractor, coming down the gears as you slow down saves wear on the brakes. I can see if you're only driving in town or on fairly flat motorways perhaps it's not a big thing to just brake I suppose. Try that coming down a steep hill road in Scotland in the winter with snow and ice making things slippery and you're going for a toboggan ride 😢
No. Simply put engine braking works on one axle only and one wheel on that axle only due to the differential, brakes work on all four wheels and are balanced correctly for safest braking. A 4 wheel drive vehicle in 4 wheel drive mode may get engine braking on 2 wheels but there is no guarantee of that.
No. On ice (or even in rain when it's slippery), a mismatch of road speed and engine speed can break traction that's difficult to recover (you might need to pump the gas to regain, which isn't ideal when you're trying to slow).
@@sparkycalledmarky ABS works on the brakes when using the brakes, not when you use engine braking. A modern car with ABS should be slowed using the brakes as it will maintain traction of all the wheels and steerability that you lose with engine braking. You are not using a modern car correctly if you use engine braking.
@@martinconnelly1473 I didn't reply to you with "no", it was to the question of "does using engine braking in icy conditions make sense?": No, because it doesn't. I've then explained a bit of why: engine braking can cause a loss of traction which is more difficult to deal with in icy conditions (which may need throttle input to correct, which is a dangerous position to put yourself in when trying to slow), thus isn't suitable for those icy conditions.
I do, on my motorbike, it's how I get 93 mpg average on it. I use engine breaking and slight brake all the time, coming up to a bend I will drop a gear rather than brake, or if I see a potential hazard ahead or speed limits I will also drop a gear. My bike has an automatic transmission you can over ride with buttons, by standard it wants to get to 6th asap. Engine braking to me is also important in the wet with potential diesel spills, it allows for more control and avoids accidental lock up.
It’s a fail in advanced motorcycle training if you use your gears to slow. You should slow with the brakes and only select the gear once engine and road speeds are matched. You can easily lockup your back wheel by down shifting at higher engine speeds, even with a slipper clutch. You also should be loading weight onto the front suspension and tire before cornering to maximise grip. This can’t be done with engine braking, only by applying front brake.
@@dasp125 hence stating I use engine braking and slight brake. By that I also meant front brake only with DCT the front is loaded. I only use the rear brake when stationary.
@@funkycowie oh ok, I miss understood what you meant. Although you should use front brake more with some back, not just front on its own. Even 50/50 in wet conditions and back only in ice and snow. Unless your bike automatically applies rear brake with the front. I know some new bikes have this technology.
Have a look at a recent video from Thomas Nagy "Boss Vs Employees - Comparing Vans" showing the wearing out of brake pads (comparing a heavy brake driver to someone who gears down in more time then brakes)
Just a quick note for any bikers watching: I'd advise continue to blip/rev match and engine brake with a light pressure on the front brake to activate the tail light. Reason being is because of the sequential gearbox. It's an absolute nightmare to engine brake from a high gear, declutch and then repeatedly smash through the gears trying to find the right one if you're not coming to a complete stop lmao
I passed an advanced driving course in the early 80's and was taught then to slow down using the brakes and drive using the gears , only using a lower gear on steep hills for extra braking .
About 25 years ago I was taught defensive driving and they said not to use your gears just use the brakes as it’s cheaper on the work van. I must admit I still change down but guess I’ll have to stop! My work lorry is automatic and never seems to change down when stopping.
Going down through the gears sequentially means you're in the car's power band more of the time, so that if you need to accelerate you're already good to go. By putting the clutch in at say 40 or 50 mph because there is a queue ahead, for me, you're undoubtedly in less control of the car than if you went down to 4th, 3rd etc. Pros and cons. I also enjoy rowing through gears so that's certainly part of it!
So you think police interceptors and advanced drivers don't know this? the guys who go to pursuits at over 120 mph do this same thing, you shouldn't overlap braking and gear changing that is.
I don't think you are in less control because the braking is giving the same effect as the engine breaking would have. I don't see why you would really need to be ready to accelerate when you can see traffic ahead is totally stopped either. At best it may start moving as you get closer and you may want a low gear like 2nd which just makes shifting through all the gears pointless.
@@elobiretv It was just an example, you obviously wouldn't be looking to accelerate coming up to queued traffic. Only using the brakes doesn't give the same level of deacceleration as using the brakes and engine braking.
@@elobiretv maybe not advantageous in most situations, but it's definitely not a bad thing to do, all this means is planning ahead and engine braking instead of using the brake pedal, not braking and changing gears at the same time etc.
You are actually wrong here. Brake pads are very easy to glaze now also. I sell brakes and repair brakes, so i could tell you to wear the brakes so i can earn more. And about the gears on diesel and petrol. Diesel gears are much shorter than petrol gears. If you use the clutch right, you can engine brake without any extra wear on the clutch than the lifespan of it anyway. The clutch will need to be changed after so many years anyway because of the material they are made of.
Excellent video by Ashley, explained really well and the plethora of cameras showing what was going on out of the car, in car, at the instrument panel and on the pedals was brilliant. IAM does the same technique - brakes for slow, gears for go. I learned to drive 40 years ago and was taught to go down through the gears when slowing. Then I did my IAM test and had to learn to simply use the brakes to slow. Complete declutch before engine stall. This eases wear and tear on the clutch. Also gives more stable braking as brakes act on all four wheels whereas engine braking only on two (usually). When about to move off, select the correct gear and then come off the clutch. When approaching a hazard, IAM uses IPSGA - Information, Position, Speed (so adjust the speed using accelerator or brakes) Gear (once the correct speed has been reached) and Accelerate. The braking is done before the gear is changed. To balance the above, there are some situations where dropping a gear could be beneficial. These include: 1) Brake failure 2) Brake malfunction/weakness/overheating - less serious than complete failure 3) Going down a steep slope (be in the correct - lower - gear to stop the car running away, without having to ride the brakes) 4) In a fully loaded HGV where you need to use everything possible to slow down For minor slowing down, you can also use acceleration sense - just lift off the gas when needed. With practice this can be used to reduce the use of brakes to only when they are strictly needed.
I only engine break on long down hills or if there's a long road ahead and I'm "creeping" towards the lights so I'm ready to move off in the correct gear. And even then, the latter is rare, as lights are about every 10 feet haha
But isn't the revmatching counterproductive to fuel economy? Obviously it's gonna cost less fuel then when the engine is under load, but a sharp blip will definetly cost you some fuel. I personaly love to revmatch to hear the engine roar and it is so satisfying to get it just right so the clutch doesn't have to match speeds, but strictly fuel effciency speaking I think it is a bit better to let the car idle under its own power for a bit longer.
@@assassin3g not sure if it's good but I average 68-75mpg in a Toyota Aygo. I just try to use all of my kinetic energy and use as much waste energy to keep the engine turning in fuel cut off mode during engine braking... It's rare I down shift below 3rd for this though unless I know I'll need 2nd gear (like to slow down for a tight corner that requires you to slow below 20mph)
Arnt you supposed to be in control of the vehicle at all times, preparing for what is ahead given road conditions etc? What does an automatic gearbox do
I do think it's beneficial for learners to down through gears and keep the revs in the operating range. You'll learn to downshift properly as well as get the feel of which gear is apropriate to the speed you're going and the sound of the engine. Otherwise, it's completely fine, my dads driving is impeccable, and he's a certified coaster 😆
Yh I agree with that 🤣 maybe not textbook but in a car you can select the right gear when you need it if your breaks are working as they should be. I wouldn’t do that going downhill in my truck. I suppose it all comes with experience and knowing what your capable, your vehicle is capable of and being able to effectively judge what is happening in front of you. Experience.
Interesting. When I was learning to drive, I read both the IAM driving manual and the Police Drivers' manual. The advice was to use engine braking, and change down. The reason as I remember it (from the IAM book) was not so much to save the brakes as to always be in the appropriate gear for the speed and the road. This means that if you do have to accelerate then you are in the right gear to do so. Another factor for me is that some cars (most, nowadays?) - at least petrol cars - stop fuel from going into the engine as you use engine braking (AIUI). As for clutch wear - that could be a factor, unless you at least match the revs of the engine with the gear you are going into. From habit, I suppose, I double de-clutch, but that isn't necessary, of course, if you increase your engine revs as you slip into neutral before going from, say, 4th to 3rd. As an aside, in two cars (well, one car and a Landrover) I used to do racing changes because the clutch needed pumping to get it to disengage. Not a technique that I would advise, of course, but it was very pleasing, and gave an incredibly smooth gear change. Whatever the pros and cons, I'm too old now to change - or rather, not to change.
Watching this, I was reciting "brakes to slow, gears to go", and about to scroll down to say this, when....you said it. Both IAM and RoSPA use roadcraft as their base, and both use the above phrase, and keep the gear you're in until necessary to stop or depress the clutch. We've had adequate brakes since the early 1950s, and by the early 70s there really was no need to gear down when slowing, yet DVSA (and its predecessors) expected it on test until 1997, which is partly the reason it lives on. I've had many conversations with parents, arguing about this.
You are talking bollox, I want to be in the right gear all the time to react to road conditions. Engine breaking doesn't wear the engine anymore than accelerating does. If your wheels aren't connected to your engine this is coasting, not really rocket science is it. Out of curiosity, what does an automatic box do?
perhaps a good reason for engine braking is so you know how to slow and stop your car without brakes. Brakes can and do fail and instead of going into panic mode and pressing the brake pedal you will have the know how and experience to engine brake. How often do brakes fail, rarely I suspect but that is not the point.
How about if you come to a slippery stretch of road say driving into a sudden snow flurry or seeing a sign warning of icy condition and you have to slow down and stop?
Some people just don’t like giving that much control of their car up to technology, for me, automatics exist to allow unconfident drivers access to the roads without being a danger to themselves and others. I’ll add the bone idle to that as well, imagine watching a gear change and thinking the person is doing “all that” movement
No point down shifting through gears to slow either cz the modern engine uses a little bit of fuel per gear change to prevent engine stalling so if fuel savings your goal try stick to fewer changes
Not watched it yet but depending on road speed and what your actually doing then yes, try driving a oldschool auto on the hills of yorkshire with zero engine braking.
40 or 50 years ago the old drum brakes on cars were awful and we were actually taught engine braking techniques as a means of preserving the lifespan of the breaks. But then technology improved with things like disc brakes which were much more cheaper and efficient, and it became advisable to look after the engine and clutch more than the brakes. Also today cars are much more heavier and carry more Mass, meaning that engine braking has a lot less overall effect on reducing speed than before. ……….. Interesting Motorcycles do still have a significant engine break because the engines are powerful over the weight of the bikes which are light. So a motorbike will slow quite a lot when the rider comes off of the throttle without breaking, and this can catch you out if you follow too close in a car. If you tail gate a motorbike the risk of rear ending then is very high for this reason, so stay back.
Have you seen the signs before steep hills going down "select low gear" its so the engine assists with the breaking. As a lorry driver in the past (I know many lorries now have automatic gear boxes) a lorry driver would always go down the gears ( I actually think automatic gearboxes are setup to do this anyway) so its a habit I've got into and what I feel comfortable with.
difference between heavy vehicles and light vehicles. light vehicles have a lot more brake per weight than heavies, which makes the brakes a lot more forgiving of hard use.
A lot of commenters here have missed the "to stop" in the title of the video, and mentioned by M. Neal several times. "Ah! But to go downhill ..." comments aren't talking about the right thing. The issue is whether changing down is mandatory, or even modern recommended practice, in order to *stop* a car. People think that it is, but it actually is not. (It wasn't even recommended practice for cars back in 1979, as I pointed out in another comment.) Going downhill, or slowing down to a slower road speed whilst continuing, is not stopping. And the procedure is not the same for the two.
I learnt to drive as rear disc brakes were coming in, and I was taught to use the gears to slow; the "no need to change down" method has been around for a long time, with the claims of clutch/engine/engine mount damage being touted, but I havent seen any evidence of that; I drove over 250,000 miles in one big, heavy MPV with the clutch plate changed once at 150,000, and brake pads every 80,000 miles; and I put that down to so many steep hill junction starts (a few so steep, the handbrake couldnt hold the car). I put over 150,000 on it's replacement with similar brake and clutch change times. Another PH driver with the same MPV claimed the gearbox would break after 150,000 miles, but speaking with the garage that maintain both our cars - it was his habit of resting his hand on top of the gearstick, pushing it down slightly and wearing the gear selectors. I have tried using the "coast to a stop" method, but I dont feel as if I am in control; if something unexpected happens, you cant accelerate to avoid a collision as you are in the wrong gear; I have actually been in this situation once or twice, (HGV 3 lanes to my right suddenly swerving straight towards me at speed, then the exact same scenario with a coach). (Coach driver got sacked, not sure about the HGV driver, I know the police took no action against him, despite holding us both at the side of the road for nearly 3 hours, trying to find a working breathalyser). Unlike your video, I dont use every gear when decelerating, usually I will take 5th (my highest), down to 3rd, then 2nd. Not all cars act as that BMW does when decelerating at low revs; and many of your viewers arent driving new, hybrid cars, but pure ICE cars that are 5, 10 or even 15 years old; Audi were one of the first to introduce a system where fuel supply to the engine was cut under deceleration - but this only occurred if the revs were over 1800 rpm, so it made sense to keep the revs above that for as long as possible. I used to get an average of 38-44 mpg, in a (big, heavy), Audi with an official mpg of 26-32; and I wasnt shy about breaking the speed limit back then. I once chauffeured a bigwig from one of the major banks around the South West for a day, in his new (manual) Jag; he was younger than me and presumably taught the "no gear change" system; I asked him how fast he wanted me to cruise, and we set off down the motorway at that speed; then around various outer London locations. At the end of the day he noticed the average mpg, and wasnt amused to see it was 28, when his previous best was 24. I ASSUME he wasnt amused, because he never asked me to chauffeur him again; despite praising me for my smooth driving through the crowded streets of London's suburbs. (I didnt like that Jag, it accelerated faster using the cruise controls than using the go pedal).
I prefer shifting down as it keeps my fuel economy at 0L/100km as long as possible, and I generally don't need to brake at all unless I need to come to a sudden stop or the traffic lights are being disagreeable. I can understand why you'd get marked down for doing it though, as shifting down does take unnecessary attention away from the road which is always a bad thing, especially when you're a novice driver. In the end, like you said, you either waste a little extra fuel and some brake pad or you waste some engine and clutch. Both damages should be negligible. Cars are made for driving and will wear doing so.
I can't agree. it is coasting. My Fabia vRS has been used since 2007, slowing down through the gears, and is still on the same clutch and gearbox after all this time and 147,000 miles. i will NOT change this....in my opinion'....good habit, and quite often, with timing right, I'm already in 2nd gear to keep rolling at traffic lights, so less wear and tear on the clutch from a standing start.
This is known as SGA within the acronym IPSGA used by advanced drivers, although truth be known I feel it's an acronym ideal for new drivers too as it makes a whole lot more sense than other ones. My understanding of coasting is the need to be in neutral because then you haven't got access to the engine if you need it. IPSGA is 'Information' i.e. whats happening 360 degree's around your vehicle, 'Position' - i.e. choose where you need to position yourself in the road, for example lane selection. Speed, change speed appropriate for the hazards and situation. Gear select the correct gear once the speed (which can of course be stationary) has been set. Accelerate use your accelerator - although this could be just balancing speed for example round a long bend.
Happy you added the "doesn't really matter" bit at the end Ashley as I was all set to point out that the wear you mentioned earlier was negligible.
I have been driving over 30 years and was taught engine braking but my instructor at the time also took the time to explain the details to me and point out that even cars of that era were quite comfortable to brake from top gear to zero with no risk of ill effects. As you point out, when the car is driving the engine (most braking scenarios), no fuel is being used so the longer you stay in gear under braking, the less fuel is used. Changing through every gear requires fuel to be used during the change so this isn't a clear benefit and will depend on driving style.
Personally I have a hybrid habit with this in mind. I often make one change down as I'm braking (possibly 6th to 3rd for example) which has the benefit of staying in gear to a much lower speed but with only one splash of fuel in the middle of the braking process. If the braking is heavier though I won't change at all or if it's more extended I will make an additional change on the way down (maybe 6-4-2 or 6-3-2 depending on exact speeds and distances). My decisions (once safety and observations are accounted for) are largely based around mine and passenger comfort along with fuel efficiency.
The fuel efficiency here is microscopic. Also there's no need to give it a splash when changing down.
@roostercruiser the tiny splash of fuel I mentioned was what the engine would use to keep itself running while the clutch was in and it was disengaged from the drive. I don't believe it's possible to avoid the engine keeping itself running in these circumstances so that tiny splash of fuel is entirely unavoidable until I re-engage the clutch and let the engine be driven by the car again.
As for the amount of fuel saved, it won't be as much as a newer car with a start/stop system but it will be part way there and also leads to a calmer more controlled driving style which in turn leads to further savings which is why I regularly get over 50mpg and have even hit 70mpg on a journey
@@malccraven5276 Why does stop/start feature make it less of a problem - the engine won't turn off between gear changes....?
A 5A-FE 1.5 DOHC 4-Cylinder with 9.8:1 Compression Ratio in park has a fuel flow rate of 0.171 cc/s which is 0.000175l a second... So if you change gear quite slow, lets say 2 whole seconds that 'splash' = 0.35ml. Barely a splash to an ant. This not even raindrop amount of fuel is not a contributing factor to your 'good' mpg.
I did have an instructor who said that brake pads were cheaper to replace than gearboxes. However I frequently use engine braking even on the automatic work car with paddle shift, especially downhill to control speed. I replaced my brake pads after 12 years and the gearbox is still fine.
Like it were more waring to engine breake then accelerate xD
Ok, I don’t do what you suggest and go from 70mph in sixth all the way down to a stop and clutch in before stall. In fact I block shift from sixth to forth (or indeed fifth to third) so that I clutch in much later and I’m not coasting in gear. This is coasting after all - since although you are in gear, the gear is disengaged and you have to actively reengage and the car would not do so for you.
I also tend to ‘heel and toe’ even in normal driving and block shifting like this does require me to lift the revs in order to slot the gear without dragging the clutch on engagement. This all requires much more input from the driver but I’m ok with it - It benefits by not labouring the engine so much as you approach stall, particularly apparent in a diesel. You maintain drive which is safer in the event of a shunt and at least in my car (2005 Petrol) it uses less fuel since disengaging drive means the engine requires fuel to maintain idle, whereas staying in gear uses no fuel as Ashley points out does not.
Thanks for the video - interesting discussion in the comments as ever!
Yeah I also prefer to downshift revmatch accordingly which some might find excessive, but I too prefer doing that as an extra input since it's all part of the driving experience and having more sense of control along with it being satisfying to feel and hear when doing so which is why I love driving manuals lol
There’s also the added benefit of you being in the right place if the lights change early. Not every deceleration hits a stop by the time you’re ready to apply power again so being in the right area as you’re slowing down allows a bit more control in my opinion. Sure I’m wrong but it seems sensible. I also drive a diesel and being in too low a gear usually causes my turbo to spin up too wasting more fuel along with the torque / power of a lower gear causing the ride to become more jerky too. I think this is one of those comfort things really. Sure either method is fine but it’s what I’m used to now.
@@AK-nb6hz I did an IAM assessment a few years ago and they had me change gear just before applying throttle in most situations and discouraged my changing gear while I was braking.
So they would have you brake quite late and hard into up to a junction, then off the brakes select a gear and go. This seemed much more rushed to me than my process and surprised me a bit, but they are all about ‘making progress’ and try to emulate the police driving course - although ROSPA Gold goes even further in this regard. I would still like to try ROSPA Gold in a manual car.
I wouldn't want to slow down from 45 to 0 without any gear being engaged. Having ridden motorbikes I find it good practice to always have a gear engaged until you actually come to a stop. This helps to retain traction and improves safety.
It is a lot easier with a sequential gearbox and a hand operated wet clutch, but I agree. The above scenario in a car I would probably do 5 to 3 then 1 when stopped, maybe 4 to 2 depending on the gearbox. On a bike though absolutely go 5-4-3-2-1 stop and ready to go.
If you are stopping then you won’t be using any gears and so there is no point in engaging them. Unlike a motorbike, a car can block change and it is preferable, while braking, to have both hands on the steering wheel. A motorbike doesn’t require you to compromise on one form of control to use another because your left foot is doing nothing else; your left hand in a manual car is needed for accurate steering or skid recovery.
Before my wife's physical challenges, we always drove manual transmission vehicles. I nearly always down shiftewd when stoipping. I have heard pundits say how rough that is on the clutch. My clutch plates (and brake pads) regularly lasted 90,0000 - 100,000 miles. Proper technique and planning ahead is required. The extra stress on the engine and transmission is minimal, on the clutch negligible, less than to the brake pads. Braking is mechanicle and you're wearing the pads and disks the entire time you're slowing. Using the engine, there is, at most a very brief light slip of the clutch. I'm unimpressed with the whole "the brakes are cheaper" argument, especially when brake jobs are several hundred Dollars, Pounds, Euros, or whatever.
Yup this is how my instructor is teaching me too. Can stop in any gear and then change when needed to move off
I learned to drive and took my test in 1975. My instructor told me to do just what you do joking that brakes were cheaper to replace than gearboxes.
I remember you retrained me with this method and I teach it this way totally makes sense 🙌🏻
Small talk: One of my mates has a 2 liter, SOHC Mitsubishi. That car is just a sloth. You can stay in gears long, it will tolerate dropping a few gears, or changing up multiple in one go.
My Hyundai is a 1.3 liter, SOHC car. I got used to changing up regularly or dropping in sequence. These cars are like night and day. From engine to flywheel, through the gearbox. Marvelous and treacherous.
The RPMs: Low RPMs are beneficial for fuel consumption up until a point. Bear in mind; if you constantly strain the engine to put out sudden and elevated power in improper gears, you won't get away with it in crucial situations AND/OR may risk engine and gearbox integrity.. Use the low RPMs when you can maintain that speed, and you have no need to accelerate. If there is a change that risks may suddenly arise, forget saving fuel, be on the lookout!
Coming to a stop: if you see that there is a stop imminent, use both the engine brake and the brake for maximum deceleration. Just keep the revs in mind not to stall.
If you only need to slow down, apply the same, avoid coasting and try choosing the proper gear to continue on. At least that is what I was thaught and what I try exercising.
Don't neglect the braking the engine and the gearbox can exert. They have their cooling and lubrication to assist, on top of the brakes. Use them wisely, spare on maintenance.
This is another issue I ran into when practicing with parents in between lessons. They tell you all of these outdated methods from the 1970s when cars were basically total crap and you had to slow them like this, then you inadvertently repeat some of it on your paid lesson and the instructor asks what you're doing. My instructor when I learned really wasn't a lot younger than my parents and would have been driving in the same era, except he was trained properly in modern methods.
In fact, driving parents anywhere is a waste of time. They treat every journey like your first lesson and criticise you for minor things they do all the damn time - I thought that only happened to me, but a quick look online says otherwise.
It's ignorant to call cars from the 70s total crap. They were different to modern cars and required a much broader skill set to drive but there were some amazing cars then, cars that would shock some drivers today at how capable and comfortable they were.
If you rely on brakes you are heading for an accident at some time sooner or later. There was a straight road behind my house that had a little dip before the junction and I once saw a police car careening past the halt mark and onto the major road with devastating consequences.
I have the luxury of an Auto however I drive a manual for work and sometimes I’m guilty of knocking it out of gear approaching lights
I learnt these skills, but later in life moved to an automatic, and then an EV which doesn't have a gearbox in the conventional sense. My 16 year old daughter will soon start learning to drive and she doesn't understand why she should bother with a manual gearbox car. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, as it must be a growing attitude in students learning to drive?
Because manual gearbox cars have you more involved, which will lead to you being a better driver. Rather than just being some ape pressing go and stop, you actually have to think about what you're doing.
@@bongsound Manuals are great for that engaged feel, in the same way a V8 sounds too, but not having to use up mental energy on what is after all a technical limitation of the combustion engine - it can only rev so high and can't go to zero or reverse it's rotational direction, means I can focus better on things like steering, braking, situational awareness and be a better, safer driver. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.
With modern organic ceramic & sintered shoe materials options, the drum brakes on classic cars & bikes are a heck of a lot superior to what they were like, when they were new. Because of this, drum brake fade is a thing of the past, these days.
I used to do this, however, since reading Roadcraft, and watching Advanced driver training videos on You Tube (particularly a well known ex Police instructor) "Gears to Go, Brakes to Slow"....
Now do the advanced course! :)
One reason for going down through the gears on old cars is that gearboxes didn't work so well, especially when they were not new. If the situation changed, it wasn't possible to quickly select an appropriate in the same way that you can in a modern car.
When I was first learning to drive with my dad, he taught me to change down through the gears. When I started taking lessons, the driving instructor had to get me out of that habit. My dad was surprised when I told him, he had no idea it was not the done thing any more.
With me I tend to put the clutch in and coast when I'm coming towards a set of lights. I feel I have more braking control as engine braking sometimes slows the car down more than coasting and using the brakes. Sometimes I engine brake when I'm coming towards a set of lights which I think will turn green and there's no one behind me as I won't be pressing the brakes as I'm relieing on engine braking and so no brake lights will come on.
Bad instruction here. How to drive, "gears to go brakes to slow" Written by people in government who don't drive, they have chauffer's.
You'd last about a week working for a haulier driving in that manner. Interestingly, automatic boxes don't drop out of gear when the vehicle slows, it changes down to suit the conditions at that time, always in the right gear at the right time. It's not surprising new drivers have accidents is it! Taught this way what do they do in the event of a brake issue, they don't know what to do. Scream I suppose. When you drag yourself into this century and lose the pressing of pedals and push pull of levers which is really antiquated, get an E.V then what, tell them to switch off when slowing down. Ridiculous.
I’ve never heard of this tbh
The golden rule here is: "Be in the gear you need to be in for what you're doing". If you're slowing down, then you don't really need to change gear until you're forcing the engine to rotate slower than it likes to, as shown in the 6th gear slowdown in this video. If you can't rely on your brakes to slow you down, get your brakes sorted.
For long steep hill descents, the same rule applies: "Be in the gear you need to be in for what you're doing." In the case of a steep descent, that is maintaining your speed and not letting the car accelerate out of control due to the steep descent, so a low gear is the right gear to use for steep descents.
counterpoint, if you need to slow gradually, like if there's a light well ahead, that won't quite be green when you reach it at your current speed, then drop one gear and step off instead of riding your brakes in a higher hear. but yes, coming to a relatively short stop, unless you're driving something which wants special care - and 90% of drivers aren't - then downshifting is just unnecessary fuss and bother.
@@kenbrown2808 Depending on the gear ratio of your car, you can be in 5th down to 20 mph before it’s start to stall and then you can simply clutch if you want to slow down further. There is absolutely no need to lower gear for slowing down unless for the special situation on downhill roads.
nice explanation
@@Asto508 oh, sure, you can be in a higher gear and ride the brakes... But why not just drop a gear.
@@mammadtori3964 Thanks. 😊
You can save a lot of fuel by keeping the engine above the anti stall revs. If you keep 5th engaged until 800rpm the engine management will apply throttle to fight a stall. This is wasteful and should be avoided!
I always go down through the gears to slow coming off a motorway or descending a steep hill. After 46 years driving I've never had to fit a replacement clutch, and I've run several cars well over 100,000 miles; if you time the change correctly you're not going to wear it out prematurely.
Yep, I'm the same although I've only been driving for 2 years, I guess its also what we pick up when watching our parents drive as children.
Yeah I was always taught to go down through the gears and always have. Seems to preserve the life of the clutch much better too
I block change 6 to 4 when exiting motorways with sharp bends because I know I will slow down to a lower speed than gear 6 can handle.
@@NegotiableHemingway illogical because each time you change gear using the clutch going either up or down the box, you are introducing clutch friction and thus adding wear.
Now, if you want to change gear without the clutch then yes, that will avoid that clutch and brake wear.
rev match for smooth gear changes and minimal wear, what I do on my 16 year old Corsa with 107k miles.
If I’m coming off a motorway down a slip road slowing it from 70 on often quite a steep downslope, going down to fourth and then third has the car much more under control and settled than leaving it in fifth (my car) and declutching at 30mph. The car is slowing with you rather than the mass trying to push on.
@@jav.611 The only thing I can say is try it. It’s a feeling
I just leave it in 5th and have no issues. I do slow down quite early though
@@Batters56 I completely agree about that feeling. It's almost as if the car has more lateral traction for a given speed when it's in a lower gear.
My suspicion is that this effect is something to do with the differential.
@@jav.611 If you have your clutch depressed you do not have full control over your car.
Low compression petrol engines with a heavy flywheel are the worst in that situation, unless you take a lower gear the brakes are fighting a lot of rotational mass. It’s a car specific thing so some won’t understand the feeling you’re referring to.
Don’t forget that engine braking is much safer than foot braking in snow and ice.
@@composimmonite3918 why? Do modern cars not slide on ice if you brake? What a ridiculous statement.
No, “foot braking” better much more control especially nowadays with ANTI-LOCK BRAKING
@@thomascarroll9556 oh dear God. ABS does not work on ice. Unbelievable. Have you actually driven a car on ice? Doubtful.
@@raftonpounder6696 It's more something people in Scandinavia think about, but engine braking can send pulses through the drive wheels enough to affect one's control on ice, compared to pressing the clutch and/or braking. I gather it's a specialised area for countries where icy conditions are more common than in the UK.
@@timothydraper6626 nonsense. You use the clutch smoothly. Don’t just dump it when you change down. Ice and snow here is the same as ice and snow anywhere.
I learnt to drive by using the engine to aid breaking and I continue to do so to this day, no biggy, I do notice a lot less break dust on my alloys when it comes to detailing my car, that had to be a plus.
Yes and your pads need changing less.
@@arealscotsman but your clutch needs changing more
*... to aid braking ... ... brake dust ...
@@viperz888 explain how
@@viperz888 not unless you know how to rev-match
I'll admit I prefer to engine brake on top of standard braking and mae my way down the gears. Just like when going round a roundabout for example, coasting around it at speed is a big no-no because the car is unstable and being in gear gives you more control. This is the same for me under braking so i will selectively go down through the gears until i'm sub-1000 revs in 3rd gear, sometimes 2nd depending on the scenario, which is when i will declutch for the stop.
I guess engine braking is seen as an advanced driving skill these days.
@@jav.611 I think you misunderstood the context of my statement, which was clearly in response to the video and Ashley's comment on in the view of the DVSA and some examiners, downshifting to engine brake could be a negative mark or in the terms of passing your test these days - a non-requirement, this prompted my comment "I guess engine braking is seen as an advance driving skill these days" as if it isn't seen as a basic or required skill, then it now must be catagorised under a more advanced form of driving in the view of the regulators.
@@dalmo001 Just ask any of the newer drivers about using the parking brake for starting uphill, and watch their reaction. (That is if the car isn't equipped with electronic parking brake).
@@jav.611 Wait what, so you clutch and then brake until you are at the right speed? Why not just gear down (and if needed, brake as well). Letting the car roll out is great and increases fuel mileage, could reduce wear on the brake pads as well.
@@jav.611 I don't agree, doing this wastes fuel and once you're used to doing so it does not require your active attention and it happens automatically. Also no need to switch to every gear, if I know I'm nearing a roundabout or traffic signal I could easily go from 5th gear to 3rd of even 2nd, depending on the traffic behind me and the amount of breaking that might be required. The gear to pick depends on the car as well, mine is very light (1L, 3cyl engine) so even at 5000RPM it does not engine brake a lot.
Either way I've never learned to drive with the clutch continuesly pressed down until I've gone down to the right speed. Massive waste of fuel and energy and it also occupies your feet, what if you suddenly need to react by speeding up again?
@@Purple__ I tend to do a bit both depending on the situation, but pads are wear and tear items. A gearbox is not.
if im coming up to a queue, from a distance, i like to change gear and decelerate slowly. if i do it properly i can use less brakes without straining the engine.
This ... especially in a diesel car
On top of that if the lights change whilst you are decelerating then you don't have to come to a complete stop which has many advantages, including less wear and tear on many components, less fuel use and better flowing traffic.
Also saying that a car uses no fuel what so ever is completely false, for a car to use no fuel the engine would have to be off, there is always a minimum fuel use, even just to idle.
@@kilerscn when the engine speed is higher than needed for the road speed it keeps running without using any fuel at all!! As soon as you disengage the clutch it starts using fuel again to keep the engine running!!!
Absolutely. Be in the right gear is always what I was told, and it saves a lot on replacing brakes and disks and, despite what some say about clutch wear, I can't recall the last time I replaced one of those and have drive cars from new to 140,000+ miles. My current Ford Focus Diesel is almost at 100,000 miles on the original clutch and only one change of disks/pads at the front and nothing at the rear.
@@keithnewnham exactly, this guy is a bald know nothing.
When i learnt to drive in the army, we was all taught to double clutch due to the vehicles we drove. This was a lot to brake fade and the general lack of brakes lol. Additionally it was from the old synchromesh gearboxes, they were fun!! I could slow a 16 ton wagon with just my gears and not cause any damage. You are so right, cars and vehicles change and i had to adapt my driving to the newer cars that we have now. Great video as ever and great to update my driving. Thank you for taking the time to do these videos great Job!!
Back in the 1980's when I was a HGV fitter I used to drive a Guy Big J6 I think it was called that was converted to a recovery truck. A Cummins engine with, I forget how many gears it had but I had to double de clutch every gear up and down much to the amusement of the drivers of the trucks I was recovering. When slowing down with a fully loaded unit and trailer behind I used to always use the gears to help slowing down. Good job it would not ever drive faster than 35mph.
I spent my formative years learning to power shift, and it paid off when I got to play with a mid 60s "screaming" Jimmy. - mind, synchromesh DIDN'T require either double clutching, or being able to power shift. I could blast through the gears (as much as you can blast through gears when you weigh 20 ton and have an engine that would have 290 BHP IF it hadn't been badly tuned) while everyone else pedaled it like a bicycle.
the other reason for shifting down as you slow is to keep track of your gears. if you just drop it out of gear, you have to be a magician to find the gear you want if you need to roll off without stopping.
Double de-clutching was an important skill in vehicles without synchromesh, it was used to match the gear speeds in the gearbox to avoid that horrible gear crunching when you move the gear lever from one gear to the next. You would rev up in nuetral when changing up and rev down (lift off the gass) in nuetral when changing down, takes some practice to get it right but is not necessary in modern vehicles with synchromesh on all forward gears. The last vehicle I drove like this was a series IIA Landrover - had no synco on 1st or 2nd. Had drum brakes all round as well so I know all about brake fade!
Back in my day we would pull on the reins and shout wooaaaahhhhh
Great reply not many will know what or Wye double clutching was necessary or even what it is nice to know some experienced member of the driving club of old school watch these videos
Regards
Haley
What I have learned from my instructor was to anticipate when coming up on roundabouts. To be looking ahead and slow down to the speed where you don't have to stop and fit in perfectly behind the car that's already on the roundabout. Therefore not having to stop and pull up again.
Mostly I change to 2nd or 3rd gear in that scenario, and I was taught to be done with all the shifting and everything before I enter the roundabout so that I can only focus on observing.
Of course this is only applicable to roundabouts without traffic lights and/or other stopped cars in front of you. But even with the latter one, you can anticipate it. I love to do it because it makes driving even more fun and it helps the flow on the roads.
As HGV drivers we are taught to stay in the higher gear till as late as possible just as you did. The biggest difference for us is approaching roundabouts where we will change down but usually in block style in order to try and keep a loaded truck moving, rather than pulling away from stopped.
I’ve tried the ‘gear for go and brakes for slow’ method and I really hate it. I don’t feel in control of either my van or car. I use engine braking and double declutching all the time. This ‘new’ way of driving must be the reason I encounter drivers who never seem to be in the correct gear. I think it’s a lazy way to drive.
I use this method and always seem to be in the correct gears. 🤷🏻♂️
That's purely a psychological thing not feeling safe and unless you're driving a 4 wheel drive, you're only getting braking on 2 wheels. How would you get on driving an auto where you get virtually no engine braking at all?
@@paul756uk2 I also tend to downshift when coming into a junction. And for me autoboxes are ok, but a manual is much more suited to my personal driving style
You may not think that it constitutes coasting but your use of the clutch would undoubtedly have got you a fail for coasting were you taking a test in the 1970s - such is the way these things have changed (I hesitate to say evolved) over time.
Ironically, as I mentioned in another comment, the actual 1979 Department of Transport Driving Manual (which I have here right beside me) gives exactly this procedure for coming to a stop. It was before the 1970s when this changed. As M. Neal points out, and as the 1979 Manual actually says (because it also says what "coasting" is), it's not coasting until right at the end because the clutch isn't down until step 6 of the (same Manual's) procedure for coming to a stop, which is in order to stop the engine from stalling. If you are braking with the footbrake, the car is in gear, and the clutch is not depressed, as one should be for most of the procedure, you are *not* coasting. Coasting is driving in neutral or with the clutch pedal depressed, which is only the case towards the end of the procedure. "This is unavoidable." says the 1979 Manual. "The important thing is to keep unavoidable coasting down to the shortest possible distance." Page 47.
Passing other slowing traffic on multi lane carriageways you should select a gear to suit your road speed and not be in an inappropriate gear in case you need to take avoiding action.
If the other traffic in this scenario is all but stopped, then fine with the depressed clutch.
My *pet* Peeve is people who break for no apparent reason and then indicate their intention to turn left or right.
Instead of indicate then break.
Reliance on Google maps, I've done this before simply because I couldn't see the junction I was told was ahead that I needed, and so I needed time to assess and so I slowed my speed down incase the turning was sooner than expected and needed to be safer. However, if you're keeping a safe stopping distance, this breaking and then indication shouldn't be much of an impact on your driving, if you're too close, then maybe take it a little calmer, as they may not know where they are going.
If someone is braking that's a very obvious sign that they will want to turn off soon, and it should be all you need to make the appropriate adjustment to your speed. I don't even get annoyed when people only brake and don't indicate left or right at all; it's easy to work out what they're going to do and plan accordingly.
My pet peeve is people unable to spell 'Brake'
Not as bad as those who slow from 60mph+ with no brake lights to warn everyone else because they're gearing down...
So you want people to give you notice that they are going to have a coffee?
I passed my test around 13 years ago, but I've always been taught to and use engine braking and brakes. Thinking back a few years I had a 2012 ford, a few weeks after owning it came to brake and (apparently) the brake booster had failed. Using engine braking stopped the car from being a very dangerous missle on wheels.
I wouldn't say there was anything wrong with someone using engine braking, nor is there an issue with someone not. I have found though using it makes jumping into an automatic a lot more difficult.
I actually fundamentally disagree with you on this one, and it's been a long standing issue I have with the way driving is taught in this country. You did mention engine braking, but it isn't just about drum brake fade, its also about being able to cope with brake failures. Both my wife and my daughter were taught the method of "brakes to slow and gears to go" and because I disagree with it so strongly, I taught them both to use their gears to slow.... subsequent to that, my wife's car actually suffered a brake failure whilst descending a steep hill, because if what I had taught her, he was able to control the speed through the sharp corner at the bottom, slow to a crawl on the level section afterwards and bring the car to a safe stop using the handbrake. If I had not done what I did, I honestly believe she would have been seriously injured or killed... why do driving instructors not teach this, at the very least as an emergency situation???
Sounds like she suffered brake fade due to overheating the brakes on a decent down the hill, the signs are there and usually say use a lower gear whilst descending, though it probably depends where you live or who taught you to drive, in a city there isn't much use to it but I was taught that back in the 80's on using a lower gear on a decent, it also usually tells you in the owners manual, a vast book of knowledge that people don't read.
@@composimmonite3918 Yes... but once he ha taught people around the streets of Liverpool, they are legally permitted to drive anywhere... including the hills of Cumbria... so driving instructors should be teaching people how to cope with all conditions and what to do in emergency situations.
@@tonyb1223 No, the failure was actually due to a mistake by the garage who had serviced the car and just changed the brake pads... but irrespective of the cause of the failure, nothing is 100% reliable and all machines are prone to failures... so to me is should be an absolute essential that those skills are taught as they can literally save lives!
It's hardly like you couldn't work out that you'd need to use the gears in that situation if you usually used the brake to slow down. personally I'd prefer to just make sure my brakes work all the time...
@@elobiretv So... HOW exactly do people "work that out" if they've never been shown? You might be mechanically minded, but the majority of the population are not... as for checking... so did my wife... they were fine when she set off, they failed whilst she was driving.
After riding bikes for a decade I'll be using downshifting to my advantage all the time. Same as double clutching to build the boost, it has a purpose and not practicing stuff like that often make it easier to get wrong.
Same here, bikes defo benefit control wise.
When just driving normally I tend not to use engine braking these days though mainly for efficiency due to price of fuel lol.
My driving instructor taught me when coming to a stop let off the gas and then clutch down when the RPMs were getting low. Then when you're completely stopped or the traffic starts moving again is when you switch gears. Then my dad taught me to slow down using the gears and he said it was because I would wear down my brakes too quick by using them so much. I use both now depending on the scenario.
I had it the other way round this was only 21 years ago . I will say my Skoda citygo only needs to be de clutched at 18 my current car is 25mph so I find I don't need to that often
Totally worth it. Even if it's just so everyone within a quarter-mile can hear the gorgeous sounds of the pops and bangs on your remapped Mini as you attempt to heal-and-toe rev-match to the red line on every down-shift as you pull up to the lights outside McDonald's. Gosh they must think I'm so cool.
i don't think i could drive a car with rev match.
@@allothernamesbutthis I drove a Nissan with rev match for a while. It's a nice feature, but I disabled it because I enjoy the challenge of perfecting heel-and-toe.
Most people can’t afford modern cars with the latest technology so I’ll keep Rev match downshifting in my 2008 golf and only use the brakes when I feel like I need to stop sooner
Here's the correct perspective on "modern": A Mini Clubman made by British Leyland in 1971 doesn't suffer from the drum brake problems that encourage changing down to come to a stop from high speeds. The sort of British cars where this was problematic were from back in the 1950s and suchlike. A 1971 Clubman has disc brakes. Your 2008 VW Golf has disc brakes too. I've driven cars with drum brakes, and no synchromesh, and starting handles, and manual chokes, and other far-from-modern things. It's a different world to your 2008 VW Golf, and the idea that one needs to drive a 21st century car like I drove those cars is rather silly to someone who has actually experienced the sort of motor vehicle that this is/was a problem with.
RoSPA uses the technique used in the police driving handbook - Roadcraft - which is the technique you teach Ashley. I learned the technique myself when I originally passed my advanced test twenty years ago - originally taught by going through the gears ten years prior to that.
Exactly the same method taught in IAM.
The police are good drivers are they? Really!
@@7755ian1 they used to be.
I remember my dad talking about the one day he was on a very steep hill descent and tried double clutching with a crash gear box in an 8-wheeler tipper. He missed one of the gears and couldnt get it back. He was on the brakes but they faded quickly and there was a cross road at the bottom of the hill with a yard being straight on - a dead end. Some how he came to a stop, brakes smoking like mad and he got out to assess the situation and work out where he needed to go, only to find himself perfectly on the weigh bridge of the place he was meant to be delivering to. Those days are certainly behind him and most commercial lorry drivers now!
Edit (because some people took my comments to the extreme):
I should clarify, brake fade is still a thing for hgvs but not like it was back in the day. A bit like brake fade is still a thing for cars (that dont have ceramics), but not like when cars had drum brakes back in the day.
In a truck you definitely need to preselect the proper gear, not changing mid descent.
@@piciu256 my understanding is that with the advancement of disc brakes, engine brakes and automatic gearboxes, the modern truck doesnt really have any real concerns about brake fade
@@WatchesOnWood Your understanding of driving and the point @Piotrus was making is pretty limited to be fair.
@@135Ops care to elaborate?
brake fade is still a very real thing with heavies. but crash boxes are no longer common.
WO WO WO Ashley ! I’m a retired British Army driving instructor, and now a member of the IAM and you do get brake fade on disks all round albeit less than drums. The use of engine braking DOES NOT significantly wear the engine components out,in fact it has no adverse affect unlike disc/pad undue wear and overuse.
But the biggest disappointment for me was when you braked AND changed down on a busy road. This will and does cause phantom traffic jams holding us innocent conscientious drivers up. If you’re using friction braking on a motorway / dual carriageway is particular, this is poor driving my friend and a major contributor to congestion.
Ever got to the front of a mile long traffic jam and thought, where’s the accident? Where’s the roadworks.Wheres the breakdown? Keep off that pedal people ! Except in an emergency !
Incidentally you were coasting in this post. 😏 Regards
Hi Ashley. Great video. I can confirm RoSPA advocate brakes are for slow, gears are for go exactly as you demonstrate. In fact going down through the gears to slow down would not be considered proper use of the 'system of car control' as separation of the braking (speed) and gear (changing) phases is what's advocated. With the exception of a little judicious brake/gear overlap at the end of braking if advantageous and done under full control as part of a planned approach of course, (that's a whole other topic!!)
Combining braking and using the gears reduces control and so is less safe, as it gives you two things to do instead of one which is distracting - why bother?
Brakes are to slow was how I was taught to drive in 1990/91. I think it was the near universal adoption of disc front brakes backed up by servo assistance by the early eighties that tipped the balance towards this approach to braking, at least on passenger cars, as brakes were now efficient enough to cope under normal conditions. Now of course we have ABS, traction control, ESP and on many cars all round disc brakes.
Driving in snow and ice may present something of an exception, though mainly because if conditions are really bad you want to avoid braking as much as possible- hence the need to drastically reduce speed so you have time to slow almost exclusively on acceleration sense. You'll probably be in a lower gear anyway so not many gears to go down through!
Blimey, if you can’t do two things at once when driving, then you shouldn’t be driving. RoSPA are at odds with the police and Highway Code as they say it’s ok to straight line a roundabout and the police say you can’t. Given the number of wrecked police cars I see, I think I’ll continue to drive how I’ve always driven. I actually got stopped by police yesterday and was told my brake lights weren’t working. They started going over my van and couldn’t find any faults, even with the brake lights. I said that I drive ‘on the gearbox’ and thus don’t need to brake all the time.They argued ‘how do people know if you’re stopping’? I replied that the reducing gap between them and me should be a dead giveaway if they’re paying attention. I asked if the way I preferred to drive was an offence and they had the gaul to say ‘probably’!
@@alanreynolds5985 so you slow down by changing down through the gears? That's a lot of effort when the brakes will do the job for you much more easily as they were designed to. The signal from your brake lights is also quite helpful to reinforce the fact that you're reducing speed - perhaps it might be worth reflecting further on the advice the police have given you, before someone crashes into the back of your van possibly injuring themselves and you.
I appreciate the need to concentrate on many things while driving- not sure how braking and changing gear at the same time helps you stay in control of your vehicle and stay safe though?
@@MK-1973 So you’re not sure how braking and changing gear at the same time helps me stay in control of my vehicle and stay safe? Sounds like you’re not sure of much then. Certainly not as sure as I am. If people can’t concentrate enough on the vehicle in front, then it should be them you are addressing not me. My method ensures I’m always in the gear I need. I’ve been a passenger in cars driven by people who have passed in recent years and there seems to be much faffing about attempting to decide exactly where they should put the gear lever. I always know what gear I’m In. Driving standards are poor these days and I see instructors using methods that I do not think are safe. I tire of people thinking they need to fix things that ain’t broke or reinvent the wheel when we all know that round is best. Keep your arty farty methods of driving and look out for my tow bar. Quite a few haven’t, even when I’ve been stationary. Invariably I just get out, look at their car, smile and drive off. I don’t need their bad driving to affect my insurance. Good luck with the Brownie points. Incidentally, I’m 74 and still involved in racing and my reactions, awareness and skill are better than most of the people I encounter daily and that comes from younger racers who I teach, one of whom has just started an apprenticeship at Mercedes in Northampton two weeks ago and was offered the job within 3 hours and before they had finished interviewing the rest of the candidates. On his first day an instructor joked to a third year apprentice that he had more knowledge on his first day.
@@alanreynolds5985 thanks for your reply. Your third sentence says it all really - you're still sure of yourself even though you've been warned by the police and you go on to say that you've been involved in several accidents. Presumably your attitude is they weren't your fault so that's alright then. I'm glad you have a rewarding life involved in motorsport but as I'm sure you know what works well on the race track isn't always suitable for public roads. I'll stick to my 'arty farty' methods of continuing to look to learn and improve my driving based on advice from experts like Ashley which I think has helped keep me and my family safe - no major accidents in thirty years. So the front of my car won't be gracing your tow bar any time soon I hope. Take care.
@@MK-1973 I never said I drive the same on the road as the track did I, so please do not presume things. I’m frequently accused of being far too considerate and too polite, so my driving cannot be that bad. I can’t help if people do not pay enough attention and hit me. Doing it when I’m stationary must surely exonerate me completely. My Son has just arrived for dinner and out of curiosity I asked how he drives his GT80 on the road. It appears he drives like me except he uses heel and toe too. He is if the opinion and the same as me that your method is just wrong. He has raced up until 3 years ago. Your constant use of brakes contributes so much pollution with the brake dust as can be seen on the wheels of the cars that are driven by people like you.
Brakes can fail on any car and then your screwed, always change down and use engine braking, hybrids do this to regenerate and some have a brake gear.
Yep, on my plug in hybrid, gearing down doesn’t only save me brake wear, it saves me fuel thanks to the regeneration.
@@PippetWhippet Exactly, two birds with one stone, Ash should get with the times and stop driving outdated manual transmission cars, its all CVT Hybrids now. :P
@@PippetWhippet in an auto why bother? do plugins have ghost gears like hybrids, I like the linear acceleration of an EV.
I believe using the gears to slow down can be more effective than using the brakes in low grip conditions i.e. Snow, ice etc. Would be interested to see some testing on that though to prove me wrong (or right). Again, as others have said, selecting a lower gear for going down particularly steep hills is also a good idea, though I can't imagine many places where it would be required for stopping as modern brakes can surely handle a few quick stops in maximum stress situations.
Agreed but the only time I really see this being usefully would be extreme snowy/icy conditions. Most modern day brake systems can handle stopping in most conditions
Never ever use the gears and transmission to slow or stop on ice and snow!!
Only idiots drive above the speed of the gear in ice and snow!!
@@composimmonite3918
With only 30 years driving artics I have recomended that no one encourage using gears to either slow down or stop. Only the brakes must be used for this purpose.
The signs which say use low gears on slopes are there to ensure that you keep the transmission in the speed of the vehicle and not to encourage you to use the engine and transmission to slow you down. Always use the brakes!
@@composimmonite3918
The gear changing exercise to try to match the gears to the speed whilst slowing down is totally unescesary and a complete waste of time.
Hope this satisfies your understanding. Even if the obstruction disappears it's far more simpler and efficient to do a box change down that progressing from one gear to the next.
Common sense!
Just NO... Engine braking like that can and will lock up the drive wheels, or at least can provide enough resistance that you can start to slide. and there's no mechanism to prevent it.
As a cyclist, changing gear for the subsequent start before stopping is a necessity. Derailleur gears can only be changed when the chain is moving forward, which only occurs when the bike is moving forward or you've lifted the rear wheel off the road (which is difficult to do in traffic). It's usually still *possible* to start off in too high a gear, but it's a struggle. Bicycles with *hub* gears can change while at a stand, but they're not so common these days. Experience teaches the necessary habit.
The situation with motor vehicles is of course different, mainly due to the clutch which allows changing gear at any speed, including while at a stand. There is an additional complication with hybrid vehicles, because the drivetrain for charging the battery is through the gearbox on some (but not all) configurations. In that case, selecting a lower gear after you need to declutch from the high gear may assist in regenerative braking. I wouldn't change down one gear at a time, though - two gears at a time may often be better, as then you spend more time in gear and less effort on changing.
Well with motorbikes you sort of have to 😉
It's much easier on a motorcycle, the higher revs allows you to prevent the needle reaching the rev limiter. But yes, it's essential on a bike and there are times where you don't even need to use either brake.
@@EinkOLED Yes but the gearing accounts for the additional revs. Engine braking on a bike like you say though can be a lot stronger than a car, I still like to tap the brakes though just so the brake light comes on.
Not really, just come to a stop and then flick through the gears.
Do you do any advice on driving automatic transmission. I've had to teach myself..
@@Gobbbbb You do have to be careful not to select a lower gear at a given speed, there's a potential to lock the rear wheel.
My instructor taught me that you go down the gears because if the traffic then starts moving you are in a better gear to continue on, as for brake fade this can happen with disc brakes, try the run down from Hartside to Penrith to see how disc brakes can fade.
Definitely, my Dad trashed a set of brakes coming down Llangynidr Moor in neutral. I had been telling him for years to stop doing it. He almost ran off the road.
So, slow to an appropriate speed, select a lower gear, and use the engine to maintain a lower speed, not the brakes. Note that is slow down first with the brakes, not use the engine to slow the car, only to keep it slow.
@@stevesmith7530 engine braking is fine, in fact my theory included one of these to use engine braking. When he said its wearing it down, compare with moving off wear its still minimal. The real wear would start if you go jumping from 5k rpm down a gear it has to bring up a lot of rpms. But as we all go low rps reach around 1k and down a gear. youre wearing the brakes way way more than the clutch. theres no real disadvantage in it, your just saving a bit of brakes
Oh yes down hartside on the brakes you’d have non left!, I use both gears and brakes, I must have another trip there soon.
I remember a great many years ago, my father when following another car down a long hill, would comment on the vehicle in front, going down on their brakes rather than their gears.
30 years out of date 😬.
I learnt to drive around 15 years ago (big up to Ruth at SurePass in Chester!) and I was taught to use the "brakes to slow & gears to slow" like you demonstrate here.
My problem is used to commute on a 2 stroke 125cc and always had to work the box to get decent acceleration and unfortunately that has somewhat translated into my driving style too 🙄
I passed two weeks ago, and I was taught to use gears to slow down.
It's an excuse to show off your beautiful legs
I don't have to gear down! My beautiful Skoda Karoq is fitted with a superb 7-speed DSG gearbox, which always has me in the correct gear. And I don't need to double-declutch either! It is not as much fun as driving my old Mk One Cortina GT nor the best car I have ever had, the Mk One Lotus Cortina. These days sometimes I don't feel as I am in charge, but boy was I glad about the Brake Assist last Wednesday when a car nipped in front of me on a dual carriageway and then slammed its brakes on, the Brake Assist had the brakes on immediately. I think it was an attempt at an insurance scam.
My wife has a bad habit of dipping the clutch round corners. I have tried to tell her how dangerous it is but she wont change. I can now see where it comes from. This idea that 'old habits' are not relevant any longer. I strongly disagree! As can be seen in the other comments here, the are many situations where engine braking is important. Making sure you are in the right gear at the right time is the simple philosophy to follow. You brake before a bend so you should also be in gear for the bend.
Tend to agree, I see a lot of cars braking as they go round bends and roundabouts because they approach far too quickly and then change down to find a gear mid-turn - using brakes only may be the current way but it leads to poor anticipation as you are trying to find gear as you approach a complex situation in my opinion. I'll stick to engine braking while I have a manual as I feel it gives you better control and anticipation approaching lights, turns, roundabouts etc
I've frequently reproached younger drivers of my acquaintance, after they have approached a roundabout or junction at speed and then braked at the last minute - and their response has been "but I was taught to do that". I've found that difficult to believe until now - but I guess I am out of date, having passed my test in 1971 😁
I think a lot of people really do leave it a bit late though. :)
@@slothgoingfast the real jokers are those who race up to the junction knowing that they can't see what's coming from the right until they get there and have to stop anyway- unless of course they intend to just drive out come what may 🤣
@@jav.611 I hope (and think) you're right - but maybe they interpret things that way? Taught or not, there's lots of them doing it....
@@jav.611 my responses are also coloured by the fact that I'm a motorcyclist as well - it's not so easy to just "pick a gear" on a bike....
You're extrapolating how your car works to the rest and I don't think that's correct. I know some cars that if you are not accelerating in gear they start consuming fuel below 1500rpm for example, so if you change to a lower gear then the consumption would be 0 again. Also the more time you have the clutch pressed, the more fuel you use (in that case the engine is idling and consuming fuel) so if you are in a high gear and have to use the clutch early, that's more consumption. Agreed that the difference could be negligible unless if your drive only in the city where it could matter a bit more, but I think it depends on the car and we can't generalise. But the big point of the video is true, the brakes of modern cars are not going to care if you gear down or not.
I thought coasting was when no gear was selected.
You are right but that's only if theres no reason to not be in gear. Say your driving down a hill and you just decide to depress the clutch or select neutral then that is coasting
Clutch down translates to "No gear selected"
I've always called it engine braking, probably because my Dad did so too. I use it all the time, and it's one of the reasons I dislike automatic gearboxes!
The thing is: it isn't. Staying in the same gear all the way down to the stall point is *also* engine braking. When it isn't engine braking is when you have the clutch depressed and the engine isn't being driven by the wheels. Engine braking is when the wheels drive the engine rather than the other way around. Ironically, if one comes to a stop properly in the way that M. Neal describes and doesn't press the clutch too soon, one can actually spend less time overall with the clutch depressed and no engine braking happening than one does with all of those clutch depressions to change down. Whilst one is changing gear, one is not engine braking.
When I told my father the engine uses zero fuel when off gas in gear, he was impressed! It was a while back. Cheers for the video!
I think you will find that if the engine is running then it is using "Gas"
@@RushfanUK Not true. In modern cars when you are off the gas pedal the car stops supplying fuel to the engine because the energy from the wheels can still be used to spin the engine itself, especially when downhill.
@@RushfanUK Your info is out of date mate, in carburettored engines of the past that is true but in any "modern" vehicle (I use modern loosely as almost any vehicle in the last 25-30 years with electronic fuel ignition) will stop injecting fuel completely when you're off throttle, and will only start injecting fuel again when you're low in the rev range to prevent stalling or you're on the throttle again.
@@RushfanUK Nope. If there is no throttle demand and the car wheels are driving engine rotation through the gearbox when slowing, then there is no fuel used in an well-controlled fuel-injected car.
This was even true in my 1984 Sierra XR4-I. It's not exactly a new concept.
Well done on the video Ashley, the eyes are the only thing in a car that should overwork, I was taught to drive this way forty years ago, I have never replaced a clutch or gearbox in my life, and one of my car's reached 200,000 miles plus, well done.
I had gearing down drilled out of me for my blue light training - Information, position, speed, gear then acceleration (or brake) If your foot is on the brake, both hands on the wheel NOT the gear stick - if the traffic/lights ('the information') changes - select the appropriate gear for the speed you are doing. :)
IPSGA and TUG. :D
@@ts757arse makes sense, however I cant go back to my 'normal' driving now, its been drilled haha
Another point is driving around at 1200rpm in a vehicle equipped with a DMF is just asking for trouble. It shouldn't cause an issue whilst slowing down since the vehicle is providing the momentum, but after that it's best to immediately change gear to something more suitable.
As always, "it depends"... in a modern EFI car, coming to a stop, roll off and brake in gear till time to engage the clutch to stop.... when coming up to a scenario that will start moving because you CHOSE to slow early - something we choose to do a lot of the time as motorcyclists - gear down early and be ready to roll on... keep moving....
"something we choose to do a lot of the time as motorcyclist" - Is this perhaps more to do with the NEED to go through the gears on a motorbike?
@@allieandmaria I do it all the time in my manual transmission car as well... it is a good habit to be in!
I always use the gear that fits the road speed and engine RPM, every car is different and road conditions are often different. So there is no hard and fast rule that fits all.
I'll often skip gears going up or down through the gears, like set off in 2nd if I'm going downhill from a standing start, or 5th to 2nd if I'm coming to stop at traffic lights that look like they might change so I'm ready to set off.
Depends on the car, engine size, power, even fuel type etc all behave differently, again no hard or fast rule.
One of my cars I can change from 2nd straight into 5th, my other car would probably manage 2nd into 4th etc etc
But the main thing is be in the right gear for the speed you're doing and to keep the engine revs in the optimum range, be looking ahead to make the changes early and in time for stopping, slowly or moving forward.👍😎
Even advise from a driving instructor will differ from person to person. Our son was taught by his instructor to sit at the lights with his car in 1st gear, handbrake on, clutch in at biting point, ready to set off.
When he did this when I was in the car I told him it was bad practise to sit with the engine running and clutch at biting point, his reaction was like 'what do you know, my instructor says its okay!'
I explained what the clutch plate and flywheel on his car were doing and how it would over heat, wear out quickly etc you could even smell the clutch getting hot! ⚠️😯
He kept driving like that when he passed his test and sure enough his clutch failed very early!
If anyone accuses me of coasting, I'll just say no, no... Ash said it's a "controlled roll".
I drive a manual and enjoy downshifting a lot. It's super useful if you're slowing down but not necessary if you're coming to a stop. For example coming to a roundabout, I'm not planning on stopping unless I have to so downshifting gradually to second and being ready to stop or being in the correct gear to get power can be useful. Coming to a stop is a completely different story though but I still downshift when slowing if it's suitable. Also, not all of us have fancy expensive brake pads and you can reduce wear a decent bit with engine breaking.
"Gears to go, brakes to slow". Ok, like many rules it has exceptions, but for the overwhelming majority of drivers in the overwhelming majority of circumstances there are good reasons that little phrase is taught.
*Many exceptions ! You wouldn’t sit on your brakes all the way down a one mile decline now would you? 🤔🤪
Come on now
@@seemorebeer2848 No, I would not. I would select an appropriate gear beforehand, which in my case could be slower than walking pace down a 40 degree slope.
Perhaps "brakes to create slow" would be more to your taste?:) Although to slow is used in the sense of a verb, a doing word, in the simple mantra, rather than as an adjective, a being word.
The problem appears to be what people define as engine braking. Engine braking to change to an appropriate speed = generally bad, engine braking to maintain a suitable speed = good.
Yes of course this has exceptions but it’s what I always taught my pupils
I can confirm that both IAM (I hold a Masters Diploma with Distinction) & Rospa (I have a Gold Certificate) totally advocate the Brakes to slow Gears to go routine. This also means that when slowing down you are retarding all 4 wheels (in a 2 wheel drive car) which vastly improves braking performance & stability, whereas using gears to slow only retards the 2 driven wheels which is inefficient & unstable, but also fails to give due warning to following traffic by showing brakelights. I retired from driving instruction in 2015 but never once taught a pupil to use the gearbox to slow, despite several parents telling me I was teaching their offspring the wrong technique.
I feel like you, and a lot of others are making a weird straw man argument here, people don’t use engine braking exclusively to slow down, they slow down on their brakes and select a lower gear to supplement their braking, and be in the correct gear to react quickly to changes in the road ahead.
Those ancient gear things will soon be consigned to history... Gear stopping in my old jalopy works n I get a sad sense of fun knowing I'm confusing drivers behind by no brake lights showing. keeping clutch down stretches cable...
As someone who has been using regenerative braking to recharge my battery for the last six years I approve of this comment.
Because you can change speed with a hydrostatic tractor you can slow down to a practical stop without using the brakes
Holding clutch down also wears the throw out bearing if you do it too much.
I'll definitely have to give this a try. Used to driving an old Escort van with rear drums so engine braking is a must. Carried the habit over into the Passat. Always learn something from watching your videos. If you can improve just one driver you've made the roads just that little bit safer. Top man!
For all the people asking (even though he explained it in the video): You don't need to gear down when stopping, the second you push the clutch down (after braking first obviously) and coming to a stop, it's all over. Just proceed to fully stop and select first gear and move off again whenever you can.
I’m disagreeing, the engine braking can help the brake and keep them cooler, and assist the braking.
The road inertia keeps the engine turning, negating the need for the ecu to pump in fuel to keep it spinning.
The engine has a massive radiator to dump heat., better than the brakes
I will always change down for control and fuel efficiency
Modern engines use zero fuel as they are slowing down.
@Byron Deithrick,
I would agree, I've always changed down for similar reasons to yourself, I feel much more in control of my car, also because I drive a tractor, coming down the gears as you slow down saves wear on the brakes.
I can see if you're only driving in town or on fairly flat motorways perhaps it's not a big thing to just brake I suppose.
Try that coming down a steep hill road in Scotland in the winter with snow and ice making things slippery and you're going for a toboggan ride 😢
I was taught to use engine breaking in slippery/icey conditions. Does this make sense?
No. Simply put engine braking works on one axle only and one wheel on that axle only due to the differential, brakes work on all four wheels and are balanced correctly for safest braking. A 4 wheel drive vehicle in 4 wheel drive mode may get engine braking on 2 wheels but there is no guarantee of that.
No. On ice (or even in rain when it's slippery), a mismatch of road speed and engine speed can break traction that's difficult to recover (you might need to pump the gas to regain, which isn't ideal when you're trying to slow).
@@sparkycalledmarky ABS works on the brakes when using the brakes, not when you use engine braking. A modern car with ABS should be slowed using the brakes as it will maintain traction of all the wheels and steerability that you lose with engine braking. You are not using a modern car correctly if you use engine braking.
@@martinconnelly1473 I didn't reply to you with "no", it was to the question of "does using engine braking in icy conditions make sense?": No, because it doesn't.
I've then explained a bit of why: engine braking can cause a loss of traction which is more difficult to deal with in icy conditions (which may need throttle input to correct, which is a dangerous position to put yourself in when trying to slow), thus isn't suitable for those icy conditions.
@@sparkycalledmarky Sorry if you read it as not agreeing with you, I thought I was adding to what you said regarding traction.
I do, on my motorbike, it's how I get 93 mpg average on it. I use engine breaking and slight brake all the time, coming up to a bend I will drop a gear rather than brake, or if I see a potential hazard ahead or speed limits I will also drop a gear. My bike has an automatic transmission you can over ride with buttons, by standard it wants to get to 6th asap. Engine braking to me is also important in the wet with potential diesel spills, it allows for more control and avoids accidental lock up.
Motorcycles are a lot different as they don't have as much grip and brake effectiveness as cars and you are fine changing gears to slow down
@@mammadtori3964 when I was learning to drive a car a few years ago I really missed that engine braking in the automatic I was learning in.
It’s a fail in advanced motorcycle training if you use your gears to slow. You should slow with the brakes and only select the gear once engine and road speeds are matched. You can easily lockup your back wheel by down shifting at higher engine speeds, even with a slipper clutch. You also should be loading weight onto the front suspension and tire before cornering to maximise grip. This can’t be done with engine braking, only by applying front brake.
@@dasp125 hence stating I use engine braking and slight brake. By that I also meant front brake only with DCT the front is loaded. I only use the rear brake when stationary.
@@funkycowie oh ok, I miss understood what you meant. Although you should use front brake more with some back, not just front on its own. Even 50/50 in wet conditions and back only in ice and snow. Unless your bike automatically applies rear brake with the front. I know some new bikes have this technology.
Have a look at a recent video from Thomas Nagy "Boss Vs Employees - Comparing Vans" showing the wearing out of brake pads (comparing a heavy brake driver to someone who gears down in more time then brakes)
Definitely coasting especially coming to a stop in 6th or 5th gear.
Just a quick note for any bikers watching: I'd advise continue to blip/rev match and engine brake with a light pressure on the front brake to activate the tail light. Reason being is because of the sequential gearbox. It's an absolute nightmare to engine brake from a high gear, declutch and then repeatedly smash through the gears trying to find the right one if you're not coming to a complete stop lmao
I passed an advanced driving course in the early 80's and was taught then to slow down using the brakes and drive using the gears , only using a lower gear on steep hills for extra braking .
About 25 years ago I was taught defensive driving and they said not to use your gears just use the brakes as it’s cheaper on the work van. I must admit I still change down but guess I’ll have to stop!
My work lorry is automatic and never seems to change down when stopping.
Going down through the gears sequentially means you're in the car's power band more of the time, so that if you need to accelerate you're already good to go. By putting the clutch in at say 40 or 50 mph because there is a queue ahead, for me, you're undoubtedly in less control of the car than if you went down to 4th, 3rd etc. Pros and cons. I also enjoy rowing through gears so that's certainly part of it!
So you think police interceptors and advanced drivers don't know this? the guys who go to pursuits at over 120 mph do this same thing, you shouldn't overlap braking and gear changing that is.
I don't think you are in less control because the braking is giving the same effect as the engine breaking would have. I don't see why you would really need to be ready to accelerate when you can see traffic ahead is totally stopped either. At best it may start moving as you get closer and you may want a low gear like 2nd which just makes shifting through all the gears pointless.
@@elobiretv It was just an example, you obviously wouldn't be looking to accelerate coming up to queued traffic. Only using the brakes doesn't give the same level of deacceleration as using the brakes and engine braking.
@@mammadtori3964 The system of car control is a very methodical way of driving. Too methodical for my liking. It's not fluid enough.
@@elobiretv maybe not advantageous in most situations, but it's definitely not a bad thing to do, all this means is planning ahead and engine braking instead of using the brake pedal, not braking and changing gears at the same time etc.
You are actually wrong here. Brake pads are very easy to glaze now also. I sell brakes and repair brakes, so i could tell you to wear the brakes so i can earn more. And about the gears on diesel and petrol. Diesel gears are much shorter than petrol gears. If you use the clutch right, you can engine brake without any extra wear on the clutch than the lifespan of it anyway. The clutch will need to be changed after so many years anyway because of the material they are made of.
Excellent video by Ashley, explained really well and the plethora of cameras showing what was going on out of the car, in car, at the instrument panel and on the pedals was brilliant.
IAM does the same technique - brakes for slow, gears for go.
I learned to drive 40 years ago and was taught to go down through the gears when slowing. Then I did my IAM test and had to learn to simply use the brakes to slow. Complete declutch before engine stall. This eases wear and tear on the clutch. Also gives more stable braking as brakes act on all four wheels whereas engine braking only on two (usually). When about to move off, select the correct gear and then come off the clutch.
When approaching a hazard, IAM uses IPSGA - Information, Position, Speed (so adjust the speed using accelerator or brakes) Gear (once the correct speed has been reached) and Accelerate. The braking is done before the gear is changed.
To balance the above, there are some situations where dropping a gear could be beneficial. These include:
1) Brake failure
2) Brake malfunction/weakness/overheating - less serious than complete failure
3) Going down a steep slope (be in the correct - lower - gear to stop the car running away, without having to ride the brakes)
4) In a fully loaded HGV where you need to use everything possible to slow down
For minor slowing down, you can also use acceleration sense - just lift off the gas when needed. With practice this can be used to reduce the use of brakes to only when they are strictly needed.
I only engine break on long down hills or if there's a long road ahead and I'm "creeping" towards the lights so I'm ready to move off in the correct gear. And even then, the latter is rare, as lights are about every 10 feet haha
I always down shift to make the most of fuel cut off mode and save fuel. I rev match to the gear to reduce clutch wear
Driven 160k in a vehicle and almost always use downshifting in place of brakes when coming to a stop. Still on original clutch….
But isn't the revmatching counterproductive to fuel economy? Obviously it's gonna cost less fuel then when the engine is under load, but a sharp blip will definetly cost you some fuel. I personaly love to revmatch to hear the engine roar and it is so satisfying to get it just right so the clutch doesn't have to match speeds, but strictly fuel effciency speaking I think it is a bit better to let the car idle under its own power for a bit longer.
@@assassin3g not sure if it's good but I average 68-75mpg in a Toyota Aygo. I just try to use all of my kinetic energy and use as much waste energy to keep the engine turning in fuel cut off mode during engine braking... It's rare I down shift below 3rd for this though unless I know I'll need 2nd gear (like to slow down for a tight corner that requires you to slow below 20mph)
Arnt you supposed to be in control of the vehicle at all times, preparing for what is ahead given road conditions etc? What does an automatic gearbox do
I do think it's beneficial for learners to down through gears and keep the revs in the operating range. You'll learn to downshift properly as well as get the feel of which gear is apropriate to the speed you're going and the sound of the engine. Otherwise, it's completely fine, my dads driving is impeccable, and he's a certified coaster 😆
I’ll continue to drop gears when I’m coming to a stop or slowing down
Yh I agree with that 🤣 maybe not textbook but in a car you can select the right gear when you need it if your breaks are working as they should be. I wouldn’t do that going downhill in my truck. I suppose it all comes with experience and knowing what your capable, your vehicle is capable of and being able to effectively judge what is happening in front of you. Experience.
Interesting. When I was learning to drive, I read both the IAM driving manual and the Police Drivers' manual. The advice was to use engine braking, and change down. The reason as I remember it (from the IAM book) was not so much to save the brakes as to always be in the appropriate gear for the speed and the road. This means that if you do have to accelerate then you are in the right gear to do so. Another factor for me is that some cars (most, nowadays?) - at least petrol cars - stop fuel from going into the engine as you use engine braking (AIUI). As for clutch wear - that could be a factor, unless you at least match the revs of the engine with the gear you are going into. From habit, I suppose, I double de-clutch, but that isn't necessary, of course, if you increase your engine revs as you slip into neutral before going from, say, 4th to 3rd. As an aside, in two cars (well, one car and a Landrover) I used to do racing changes because the clutch needed pumping to get it to disengage. Not a technique that I would advise, of course, but it was very pleasing, and gave an incredibly smooth gear change. Whatever the pros and cons, I'm too old now to change - or rather, not to change.
Watching this, I was reciting "brakes to slow, gears to go", and about to scroll down to say this, when....you said it.
Both IAM and RoSPA use roadcraft as their base, and both use the above phrase, and keep the gear you're in until necessary to stop or depress the clutch.
We've had adequate brakes since the early 1950s, and by the early 70s there really was no need to gear down when slowing, yet DVSA (and its predecessors) expected it on test until 1997, which is partly the reason it lives on. I've had many conversations with parents, arguing about this.
You are talking bollox, I want to be in the right gear all the time to react to road conditions. Engine breaking doesn't wear the engine anymore than accelerating does. If your wheels aren't connected to your engine this is coasting, not really rocket science is it. Out of curiosity, what does an automatic box do?
perhaps a good reason for engine braking is so you know how to slow and stop your car without brakes. Brakes can and do fail and instead of going into panic mode and pressing the brake pedal you will have the know how and experience to engine brake. How often do brakes fail, rarely I suspect but that is not the point.
How about if you come to a slippery stretch of road say driving into a sudden snow flurry or seeing a sign warning of icy condition and you have to slow down and stop?
I really don’t miss driving a manual in traffic like that. It’s amazing really how antiquated it looks with all the body movements it entails!
Some people just don’t like giving that much control of their car up to technology, for me, automatics exist to allow unconfident drivers access to the roads without being a danger to themselves and others. I’ll add the bone idle to that as well, imagine watching a gear change and thinking the person is doing “all that” movement
No point down shifting through gears to slow either cz the modern engine uses a little bit of fuel per gear change to prevent engine stalling so if fuel savings your goal try stick to fewer changes
Not watched it yet but depending on road speed and what your actually doing then yes, try driving a oldschool auto on the hills of yorkshire with zero engine braking.
40 or 50 years ago the old drum brakes on cars were awful and we were actually taught engine braking techniques as a means of preserving the lifespan of the breaks.
But then technology improved with things like disc brakes which were much more cheaper and efficient, and it became advisable to look after the engine and clutch more than the brakes.
Also today cars are much more heavier and carry more Mass, meaning that engine braking has a lot less overall effect on reducing speed than before.
………..
Interesting Motorcycles do still have a significant engine break because the engines are powerful over the weight of the bikes which are light.
So a motorbike will slow quite a lot when the rider comes off of the throttle without breaking, and this can catch you out if you follow too close in a car.
If you tail gate a motorbike the risk of rear ending then is very high for this reason, so stay back.
Have you seen the signs before steep hills going down "select low gear" its so the engine assists with the breaking.
As a lorry driver in the past (I know many lorries now have automatic gear boxes) a lorry driver would always go down the gears ( I actually think automatic gearboxes are setup to do this anyway) so its a habit I've got into and what I feel comfortable with.
difference between heavy vehicles and light vehicles. light vehicles have a lot more brake per weight than heavies, which makes the brakes a lot more forgiving of hard use.
A lot of commenters here have missed the "to stop" in the title of the video, and mentioned by M. Neal several times. "Ah! But to go downhill ..." comments aren't talking about the right thing. The issue is whether changing down is mandatory, or even modern recommended practice, in order to *stop* a car. People think that it is, but it actually is not. (It wasn't even recommended practice for cars back in 1979, as I pointed out in another comment.) Going downhill, or slowing down to a slower road speed whilst continuing, is not stopping. And the procedure is not the same for the two.
I learnt to drive as rear disc brakes were coming in, and I was taught to use the gears to slow; the "no need to change down" method has been around for a long time, with the claims of clutch/engine/engine mount damage being touted, but I havent seen any evidence of that; I drove over 250,000 miles in one big, heavy MPV with the clutch plate changed once at 150,000, and brake pads every 80,000 miles; and I put that down to so many steep hill junction starts (a few so steep, the handbrake couldnt hold the car).
I put over 150,000 on it's replacement with similar brake and clutch change times.
Another PH driver with the same MPV claimed the gearbox would break after 150,000 miles, but speaking with the garage that maintain both our cars - it was his habit of resting his hand on top of the gearstick, pushing it down slightly and wearing the gear selectors.
I have tried using the "coast to a stop" method, but I dont feel as if I am in control; if something unexpected happens, you cant accelerate to avoid a collision as you are in the wrong gear; I have actually been in this situation once or twice, (HGV 3 lanes to my right suddenly swerving straight towards me at speed, then the exact same scenario with a coach).
(Coach driver got sacked, not sure about the HGV driver, I know the police took no action against him, despite holding us both at the side of the road for nearly 3 hours, trying to find a working breathalyser).
Unlike your video, I dont use every gear when decelerating, usually I will take 5th (my highest), down to 3rd, then 2nd.
Not all cars act as that BMW does when decelerating at low revs; and many of your viewers arent driving new, hybrid cars, but pure ICE cars that are 5, 10 or even 15 years old; Audi were one of the first to introduce a system where fuel supply to the engine was cut under deceleration - but this only occurred if the revs were over 1800 rpm, so it made sense to keep the revs above that for as long as possible.
I used to get an average of 38-44 mpg, in a (big, heavy), Audi with an official mpg of 26-32; and I wasnt shy about breaking the speed limit back then.
I once chauffeured a bigwig from one of the major banks around the South West for a day, in his new (manual) Jag; he was younger than me and presumably taught the "no gear change" system; I asked him how fast he wanted me to cruise, and we set off down the motorway at that speed; then around various outer London locations.
At the end of the day he noticed the average mpg, and wasnt amused to see it was 28, when his previous best was 24.
I ASSUME he wasnt amused, because he never asked me to chauffeur him again; despite praising me for my smooth driving through the crowded streets of London's suburbs.
(I didnt like that Jag, it accelerated faster using the cruise controls than using the go pedal).
I prefer shifting down as it keeps my fuel economy at 0L/100km as long as possible, and I generally don't need to brake at all unless I need to come to a sudden stop or the traffic lights are being disagreeable. I can understand why you'd get marked down for doing it though, as shifting down does take unnecessary attention away from the road which is always a bad thing, especially when you're a novice driver. In the end, like you said, you either waste a little extra fuel and some brake pad or you waste some engine and clutch. Both damages should be negligible. Cars are made for driving and will wear doing so.
I can't agree. it is coasting. My Fabia vRS has been used since 2007, slowing down through the gears, and is still on the same clutch and gearbox after all this time and 147,000 miles. i will NOT change this....in my opinion'....good habit, and quite often, with timing right, I'm already in 2nd gear to keep rolling at traffic lights, so less wear and tear on the clutch from a standing start.
This is known as SGA within the acronym IPSGA used by advanced drivers, although truth be known I feel it's an acronym ideal for new drivers too as it makes a whole lot more sense than other ones. My understanding of coasting is the need to be in neutral because then you haven't got access to the engine if you need it.
IPSGA is 'Information' i.e. whats happening 360 degree's around your vehicle, 'Position' - i.e. choose where you need to position yourself in the road, for example lane selection. Speed, change speed appropriate for the hazards and situation. Gear select the correct gear once the speed (which can of course be stationary) has been set. Accelerate use your accelerator - although this could be just balancing speed for example round a long bend.