Yesssss! Espe is my favorite commercial kveik. Last summer brewed a hazy, fermented in three days. Then brewed the same beer and dumped on the trube of the first batch. Went to work, only to come back to my blow-off truly BLOWING OFF. To this day there are spray-drops of ESPE on the wall. Anyway, the second batch fermented in 9 hrs! 9 HRS!!!! I had two beers in one week with this one. I've been using it for three years and it never disappoints. Cheers, Steve, I was hoping you'd discover this one. BTW add lychee fruit juice (from your local Asian supermarket) to the brew, it will blow your mind how well Espe fits the fruit profile.
My favorite Kveik is Maniacal Juggernaut. It's so clean like WLP-001 or US-05 and is so versatile. Love seeing your Dad and it would be cool to do a brew together. Cheers!
I started learning homebrewing last July. In March I used Lutra Kveik for the first time with a recipe I made. A Black Rye DIPA. I got a lot of compliments on it from friends, and my adopted mom. Then I took it to Fest and almost finished it off. 😁 Looking forward to trying Hornindal or Voss on a Raspberry Pale Ale recipe I’m working on. 😋 Prost 🍻
Great episode and best wishes to your father and all the family. My father is no longer with us but he loved my beer! Good to see your father loving yours!
Having your dad on was fantastic. I really wish I had an opportunity to share this with my father before he passed. I hope he would be have been happy with what I've been able to accomplish so far :). I got into it about 4 years too late. Great video man. This definitely brought a tear to my eye thinking about my father as he and I enjoyed different beer together. Your videos are truly inspiring so please keep posting great home-brew content!
I just brewed a version of this with the horindal strain and a little Amarillo hops at 10mins. Racked it to the keg and it already tastes great! Thank you for all the great information and taking an engineers perspective to brewing. It has really upped my game and made brewing more repeatable. I’m not guessing anymore!
Just did more beers pineapple and palms ipa kit that uses bru-1 and its been a hit with everyone that's had it. Also local brewery uses it for their sour.
Great video Steve! I plan to try this recipe this summer. My pro brewer friends scoff at me for using Voss because it’s “cheating”. Not sure how it qualifies as such but if getting a beer ready in half the time is wrong, I can live with that transgression. Great to see the your family tradition is carrying on. Cheers to you and your dad!🍻
Amazing your Dad brews, that is too cool! My Dad tries my beers, but only the lighter ones as he prefers that really light stuff. I got some BRU-1 from YVH that I had planned on using with Imperial A44 yeast. When you ferment A44 at 85 F it becomes a Pineapple bomb. If you ferment it at 95 F it is a tropical paradise (Passion fruit, Mango, etc) with a bit of pineapple rind (the inside part of the ride, not the bark. LOL).
What a special time, recorded on video Steve! Love to see your father’s pride and enjoyment in trying this brew. And of course it sounds like another banger, confirmed by the patriarch himself! Cheers brother 🍻
Awesome that your dad was there. I tried your Azacca smash and it was wonderful. Got the German Pils ready to hook up after sitting for a few weeks. I have a question. If I cannot reach 60F to dry hop, and I have time and a Fermzilla with pressure kit, what temp and on what day to you suggest to dry hop? Or I can dry hop in the keg but that would be a colder dry hop in the keezer. Just branching out with some newer techniques. Thanks.
Glad the recipe worked well for you! This one got dry hops on the keg and it worked great. Otherwise you could definitely dry hop at a warmer temperature if you want to, just dont leave them in for too long.
Startet homebrewing 1.5 years ago and learned planty from your vids, specially since beeing an engenieer the methodical approach really fits my brain..... but beeing a german; dang i couldn*t stop smilying when your father starter talking :)
Perfect timing on this vid! Planned a brew day past Tuesday but realized day-of I was short on wheat malt for the Philly Sour Gose I was planning. Maybe its time to dig into that pound of Bru-1 I got on flash sale from YVH. Wait a sec, didn't Steve just post a Bru-1 SMaSH recently? Sweet! Hmm, no Espe but I have some Hornindal banked from a starter a while back. I've turned around Kveik brews in a week on several occasions, decided to push my process to the limit. Brewed on Tuesday, dry hopped on Friday, crashed on Saturday night so I could keg and force carb Sunday morning. Probably could have done with another day for the dry hop but wanted to have it ready for Father's Day. Still getting big Dole-Fruit-Cup pineapple but I might toss an extra oz of Bru-1 into the keg in a hop ball if I'm still wanting more in a few days. Thanks for keeping my brew day on track!
Nice to see that you liked viking pale ale malt. For us in Finland it's so "basic" and I haven't been buying it for long time. Good to know that it's good malt so that my next whole sack could be viking pale ale.
I'm gearing up to try this brew this weekend but my homebrew store doesn't carry Espe. Which would you pick from Hornindal, Hothead and Lutra as a substitute?
Great episode. I'm relieved you didn't use actual pineapple lol. Your dad is awesome. So cool that your family is so into beer and homebrewing. Kind of funny I was just telling someone today that no one in my family (besides me) is into beer. Good stuff, man. See you on the next one.
Haha yeah I enjoy adding as much flavor from the four main ingredients of beer as I can before throwing other stuff in! Glad you enjoyed the video so much!
Curious how you found the profile for spring water? I agree on all the points you said, but I've hesitated on using spring water because I have no idea the ppms present. Thanks!
Question I've bottled for a few years now moving on to kegging now generally how long does beer last in a keg can not seem to find a straight answer can we be safe to say 3 months? anything longer is dicey , will be chilled and the right amount of co2 will be running. (i know that could vary) but just want a general idea.
If you package it correctly, theoretically it can last as long as a bottle. I've tapped kegs that were 2 years old and they showed no signs of staling.
Haven't used Kveik yet, but I have some Voss on hand. I'm hoping to do some Mosaic/Galaxy/Citra combos over this summer, garage fermenting :) One question though: When you say "Welch's grape juice", are you talking about Concord grape flavor? That's typically what I think of now when I hear "Welch's" (I remember tasting fresh Concord grapes one time; I couldn't believe an actual grape tasted like that! I had always thought it was artificial.)
@@TheApartmentBrewer I'm not familiar with them either, but Concord is striking! It's literally like Welch's grape juice, a taste I've never gotten from a bag of store-bought grapes off the shelf (like red, green, or black)
unfortunately Here in the Netherlands the yeast isn’t available so I choosed white labs WLP077-O Tropical Yeast Blend. For how many days do you recommend dry hopping in the fermentor?
Do you like that apera meter? I have a milwaukee ph54 but it barely works- almost impossible to get a stable reading. When I put it in ph 7 calibration solution, the lowest it will go is like 7.8. So, I'm looking for a better meter.
Dang - I've got a Hazy IPA with Kviek, Galaxy, Mosaic and BRU-1 in the fermenter right now and your video just popped up. Can't wait to try it out in a couple days!
You know, even though it was more of a humorous thing that your dad said "beer" was one of the flavors, I TOTALLY GET IT! I have found that some beers I brew don't actually have that "beer" taste. If I could pinpoint it, I would guess that it's literally the barley flavor, almost that "crackery", "bready", or "malty" flavor that people sometimes mention. I tend to NOT get those flavors in something like wheat beers, NEIPAs, or something super dark where those dark malts or adjuncts are masking it.
just finished a keg of kviek superdelic smash for the same reasons (ish) . been meaning to try this new hop in a smash pale ale and boy its great! unsure if its avaliable in USA yet?
@@TheApartmentBrewer i would be super interested as I have questionz around the type of water to use and if you need to hit a certain PH ect. Though I may just be over thinking it !
@@TheApartmentBrewer ok thanks, What would be a reasonable time? I was thinking let the fermtation play out and then drop the temp and dry hop for 3-4 days.
@@TheApartmentBrewer It's getting hotter than hell in my neck of the woods to be ordering liquid yeast online, so I'm leaning towards usings some Lalbrew dry Voss Kveik.
Your dad is a legend.
He absolutely is.
"Schmeckt gut" -highest compliment you could receive from a German.
Hahaha this is true
Cherish the time with your dad. I wish mine was still here. Cheers to our dad’s. 🍻
I really do, these moments are very special to me. Cheers to all the dads!
Great video Steve. Love the brewing history with your Dad.
Glad you enjoyed it so much!
Nothing like enjoying beer with your dad.
That's the truth!
Yesssss! Espe is my favorite commercial kveik. Last summer brewed a hazy, fermented in three days. Then brewed the same beer and dumped on the trube of the first batch. Went to work, only to come back to my blow-off truly BLOWING OFF. To this day there are spray-drops of ESPE on the wall. Anyway, the second batch fermented in 9 hrs! 9 HRS!!!! I had two beers in one week with this one. I've been using it for three years and it never disappoints. Cheers, Steve, I was hoping you'd discover this one. BTW add lychee fruit juice (from your local Asian supermarket) to the brew, it will blow your mind how well Espe fits the fruit profile.
I'm gonna have to completely agree with you, espe is my favorite as well. Such a satisfying flavor profile and all the benefits of kveik fermentation!
Very good content and was glad to see you you bring your dad into the fold so to speak and give him thanks for getting you into home brewing.
Something I always wanted to do and I'm glad I did!
Love your Dad! Mine drank the cheapest beer he could find at the grocery store. Lived to 93.
It's the key to a long life!
You guys should brew a beer together again! I’d love to see that
We will have to do that!
I think a family brew day would be pretty cool as a Father's Day episode.
You got three weeks Steve, better 'hop' to it.......😂
That's a great idea haha, one of these times I'll have to do that!!
My favorite Kveik is Maniacal Juggernaut. It's so clean like WLP-001 or US-05 and is so versatile. Love seeing your Dad and it would be cool to do a brew together. Cheers!
I'm glad you enjoyed it so much!
I actually LOL'd at the terrible dad joke at the end. Good stuff
Hahaha it killed me
I started learning homebrewing last July.
In March I used Lutra Kveik for the first time with a recipe I made. A Black Rye DIPA. I got a lot of compliments on it from friends, and my adopted mom. Then I took it to Fest and almost finished it off. 😁
Looking forward to trying Hornindal or Voss on a Raspberry Pale Ale recipe I’m working on. 😋 Prost 🍻
Wow, that sounds like quite the beer! Hope you continue to have great successes with Kveik!
Thanks for sharing your dad on here. He's great.
Glad everyone enjoyed him so much!
Great episode and best wishes to your father and all the family. My father is no longer with us but he loved my beer! Good to see your father loving yours!
Thank you so much! I'm appreciative of moments like this
Having your dad on was fantastic. I really wish I had an opportunity to share this with my father before he passed. I hope he would be have been happy with what I've been able to accomplish so far :). I got into it about 4 years too late. Great video man. This definitely brought a tear to my eye thinking about my father as he and I enjoyed different beer together. Your videos are truly inspiring so please keep posting great home-brew content!
It really was very special for me too. I'm glad you enjoyed this in a special way and it brought back good memories!
I just brewed a version of this with the horindal strain and a little Amarillo hops at 10mins. Racked it to the keg and it already tastes great! Thank you for all the great information and taking an engineers perspective to brewing. It has really upped my game and made brewing more repeatable. I’m not guessing anymore!
That's awesome! I'm glad I've helped you so much with your brewing!!
Your dad is the boss! So charismatic
Very informative and entertaining video. The outtakes at the end were the best.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Just did more beers pineapple and palms ipa kit that uses bru-1 and its been a hit with everyone that's had it. Also local brewery uses it for their sour.
Its crazy how much pineapple that hop throws out!
Great video Steve! I plan to try this recipe this summer. My pro brewer friends scoff at me for using Voss because it’s “cheating”. Not sure how it qualifies as such but if getting a beer ready in half the time is wrong, I can live with that transgression.
Great to see the your family tradition is carrying on. Cheers to you and your dad!🍻
It's not cheating at all haha it's their problem if they don't try to learn it!
If you're ever interested in stabilizing haze, some breweries use pectin to add permanent haze to their IPA's.
I've heard of that, I'll have to look into it more. This haze was pretty stable on its own though which was pretty nice!
Amazing your Dad brews, that is too cool! My Dad tries my beers, but only the lighter ones as he prefers that really light stuff. I got some BRU-1 from YVH that I had planned on using with Imperial A44 yeast. When you ferment A44 at 85 F it becomes a Pineapple bomb. If you ferment it at 95 F it is a tropical paradise (Passion fruit, Mango, etc) with a bit of pineapple rind (the inside part of the ride, not the bark. LOL).
Sounds like a great plan!
Way cool to see Baby Braj and Papa Braj knocking down a Hazy !!! UR truly blessed !!
What a special time, recorded on video Steve! Love to see your father’s pride and enjoyment in trying this brew. And of course it sounds like another banger, confirmed by the patriarch himself! Cheers brother 🍻
Cheers! It was a great beer to share with my dad!
I have been using ALDC for over one year and I have dry hopped up to 9 oz and no diacetyl whatsoever! It is a god-send and I highly recommend it.
Gonna have to try it out!
Awesome that your dad was there. I tried your Azacca smash and it was wonderful. Got the German Pils ready to hook up after sitting for a few weeks. I have a question. If I cannot reach 60F to dry hop, and I have time and a Fermzilla with pressure kit, what temp and on what day to you suggest to dry hop? Or I can dry hop in the keg but that would be a colder dry hop in the keezer. Just branching out with some newer techniques. Thanks.
Glad the recipe worked well for you! This one got dry hops on the keg and it worked great. Otherwise you could definitely dry hop at a warmer temperature if you want to, just dont leave them in for too long.
That's awesome. Love the videos that include family. Cheers 🍻
They're definitely the most fun to make!
Enjoyed seeing your pops. I can definitely see the resemblance.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Cool to see you sharing a beer with your Dad!
Can you chill the wort before whirlpooling?
That Beer looks/sounds super delicious, Cheers to You and Your Family 🍻🍻
Thank you so much! It was a very fun one!
Startet homebrewing 1.5 years ago and learned planty from your vids, specially since beeing an engenieer the methodical approach really fits my brain..... but beeing a german; dang i couldn*t stop smilying when your father starter talking :)
Glad my approach has been helpful for you!
Great video. I haven’t brewed with Kveik before, but I’m tempted after watching your video.
It's impressive what it can do! Definitely worth trying out!
whats the hottest you ever fermented a kveik strain? i did one at near 100 F with a heated blanket and it actually turned out pretty good
Loved the ending
Great video! Continue the good work!
Thank you!
Perfect timing on this vid! Planned a brew day past Tuesday but realized day-of I was short on wheat malt for the Philly Sour Gose I was planning. Maybe its time to dig into that pound of Bru-1 I got on flash sale from YVH. Wait a sec, didn't Steve just post a Bru-1 SMaSH recently? Sweet! Hmm, no Espe but I have some Hornindal banked from a starter a while back. I've turned around Kveik brews in a week on several occasions, decided to push my process to the limit. Brewed on Tuesday, dry hopped on Friday, crashed on Saturday night so I could keg and force carb Sunday morning.
Probably could have done with another day for the dry hop but wanted to have it ready for Father's Day. Still getting big Dole-Fruit-Cup pineapple but I might toss an extra oz of Bru-1 into the keg in a hop ball if I'm still wanting more in a few days.
Thanks for keeping my brew day on track!
Glad this was so helpful! Thanks for all the kind words and glad the beer was great!
Only thing better than a dad joke is a beer dad joke
Absolutely true haha
Your Dad is the man! I’m looking to brew a hazy with Bru-1 and Sabro at some point to see if we can get that Piña Colada vibe.
Very good idea!!!
Great vlog, really interesting and your dad is ace
What a great video. I live in Bergen, but have yet to brew with kveik. I will try your lutra pilsner. Thanks. Greetings to your dad.
Nice! You'll have to give it a shot sometime!
Awesome video!!! Cheers to drinkin with your dad!!!
He's the best! Glad I could share him with the rest of the internet haha
Nice to see that you liked viking pale ale malt.
For us in Finland it's so "basic" and I haven't been buying it for long time.
Good to know that it's good malt so that my next whole sack could be viking pale ale.
It was pretty good! Wouldn't say it blew my mind necessarily but it was quality.
Love seeing your dad on there! Great video!
Thank you!
I'll be trying this beer since it's Dad approved! Makes me miss my dad.
Thanks Curt! I'm glad you appreciated this video. It's certainly a special one for me
Great video! The beer looks great! I have wanted to brew a Kviek Pale Ale. Your Dad was the best. You may need to brew with him. Prost🍻
Love your videos! I’m going to try your Belgian strong ale recipe. Sounds like it will turn out to be a great tasting beer.
Excellent! Be sure to give it some time to mature and you'll be happy!
Gotta try your recipe, love Bru-1 hops!
Dad is the OG Braj! 😅
I really enjoyed the beer! He is absolutely the OG haha
What’s your spring water profile? So you can adjust from that?
5-10 ppm of each ion
Great video, what an interesting beer! What do you use for your fermenter gravity/abv readings and what app is that in the fermentation follow-up?
I use the Anton paar smartref
Muito bom Portugal Aveiro
Excellent video my dude
Much appreciated!
Great video! I'm not big on IPAs, but I think I'll definitely be giving this a try in the future.
That's why Pale ales are so great, just enough hoppiness to keep things interesting!
one of the greats, carrion my guy.
I'm gearing up to try this brew this weekend but my homebrew store doesn't carry Espe. Which would you pick from Hornindal, Hothead and Lutra as a substitute?
Out of those three, hornindal is probably going to give you the most similar result. It will play well with the BRU-1
Did you use a top floating dip tube?
Yep!
Great episode. I'm relieved you didn't use actual pineapple lol. Your dad is awesome. So cool that your family is so into beer and homebrewing. Kind of funny I was just telling someone today that no one in my family (besides me) is into beer. Good stuff, man. See you on the next one.
Haha yeah I enjoy adding as much flavor from the four main ingredients of beer as I can before throwing other stuff in! Glad you enjoyed the video so much!
This one sounds very delicious, did you direct pitch or make a starter?
Direct pitched
Curious how you found the profile for spring water? I agree on all the points you said, but I've hesitated on using spring water because I have no idea the ppms present. Thanks!
Poland spring is pretty open about their water profile
If possible wouldn’t you try to add the hops early for bio transformation?
You can but I'm not sure if Espe can do Biotransformation
Hey great video. Stupid question but the sodium chloride you used… That’s basically table salt? Or is there another form better for brewing.
Not a stupid question. You can easily use regular table salt, just be sure its non-iodized table salt
Once a Dad you'll never let go a good old dad joke
Nice looking beer bro !! I’ve got some Voss I’ll be working with soon !!!
Very nice!
I’m also waiting for my Yakima hops !!! Wimea and strata !!!
Question I've bottled for a few years now moving on to kegging now generally how long does beer last in a keg can not seem to find a straight answer can we be safe to say 3 months? anything longer is dicey , will be chilled and the right amount of co2 will be running. (i know that could vary) but just want a general idea.
If you package it correctly, theoretically it can last as long as a bottle. I've tapped kegs that were 2 years old and they showed no signs of staling.
Hi Steve, I’m going to attempt this. I’ve ordered the hops, I can get the yeast. Do you have a recommendation for a malt substitute? Cheers.
Awesome! You should be fine to use your favorite 2-row or pale malt
Heck yeah, Apartment Dad is an Alt fan!
As is his son! Just need to get another one in the brew schedule!
Haven't used Kveik yet, but I have some Voss on hand. I'm hoping to do some Mosaic/Galaxy/Citra combos over this summer, garage fermenting :)
One question though: When you say "Welch's grape juice", are you talking about Concord grape flavor? That's typically what I think of now when I hear "Welch's" (I remember tasting fresh Concord grapes one time; I couldn't believe an actual grape tasted like that! I had always thought it was artificial.)
I'm not very familiar with the different flavors of various grapes but I suppose that's correct!
@@TheApartmentBrewer I'm not familiar with them either, but Concord is striking! It's literally like Welch's grape juice, a taste I've never gotten from a bag of store-bought grapes off the shelf (like red, green, or black)
unfortunately Here in the Netherlands the yeast isn’t available so I choosed white labs WLP077-O Tropical Yeast Blend. For how many days do you recommend dry hopping in the fermentor?
I recommend dry hopping for no more than 5 days.
@@TheApartmentBrewer thnx for youre reaction i wil try the 5 days.👍
I love your dad. Carry on 🤘🏽🍻
Awesome video. I still have a lb of bru1 to use!
Awesome!! One of my new favorite hops!
Do you like that apera meter? I have a milwaukee ph54 but it barely works- almost impossible to get a stable reading. When I put it in ph 7 calibration solution, the lowest it will go is like 7.8. So, I'm looking for a better meter.
I do, it's very easy to calibrate and use. I'm quite surprised your Milwaukee has those issues. They're supposed to be top of the line
Dang - I've got a Hazy IPA with Kviek, Galaxy, Mosaic and BRU-1 in the fermenter right now and your video just popped up.
Can't wait to try it out in a couple days!
Good timing! I hope it turns out delicious!
You know, even though it was more of a humorous thing that your dad said "beer" was one of the flavors, I TOTALLY GET IT! I have found that some beers I brew don't actually have that "beer" taste. If I could pinpoint it, I would guess that it's literally the barley flavor, almost that "crackery", "bready", or "malty" flavor that people sometimes mention.
I tend to NOT get those flavors in something like wheat beers, NEIPAs, or something super dark where those dark malts or adjuncts are masking it.
You raise a great point!
would there big a big difference if I sub with 2-row?
You should be fine to substitute whatever 2-row you prefer
just finished a keg of kviek superdelic smash for the same reasons (ish) . been meaning to try this new hop in a smash pale ale and boy its great! unsure if its avaliable in USA yet?
It is absolutely a perfect hop for a single hop beer. This hop isn't too hard to find in the US
@@TheApartmentBrewer Thats good! as a kiwi ive been loving these new school hops being bred here!
Great color for a smash. Cool to see your dad
Your dad both looks exactly how I would like and also doesn't...funny how that happens...and nothing like sharing a brew with your dad...cheers
Future video on sparkling water? Definitely something I've been meaning to try.
I can if people would like to see it. Its all very simple, just force carbonating water in a keg with some flavoring.
@@TheApartmentBrewer higher pressure than beer?
I carbonate at the same pressure but you can serve it at a higher level than usual since you won't need to worry about foaming
@@TheApartmentBrewer if you're just doing spring water, no flavoring or alcohol, do you need to sanitize?
Nope, no need
Great Vid, great Dad Jokes!
what's your favorite brew shop to get supply's from in mass. im also in mass
Highly recommend beer and wine hobby in Danvers
Excellent video mate ! Also i glug sparkling water by the litre please do a video on it !
Glad you enjoyed it! I suppose I could do a video, but literally all I'm doing is force carbonating water in a keg with flavoring.
@@TheApartmentBrewer i would be super interested as I have questionz around the type of water to use and if you need to hit a certain PH ect. Though I may just be over thinking it !
Oh man I've never considered any of those effects haha. Just using tap water
Dad jokes at it’s best! Did brew with Espe and did get the Lychee taste. Nice looking beer!
I really liked the flavors espe left behind, I would absolutely use it again!
Ur dad is a character. 🍻
I love your dad.
He's the best!
Your dad coming in with the dad jokes. Nice! 😆
Ol' reliable haha
Would you recommend bottling this?
You can if you want to, you'll need to account for extra time dry hopping in the fermenter though
@@TheApartmentBrewer ok thanks, What would be a reasonable time? I was thinking let the fermtation play out and then drop the temp and dry hop for 3-4 days.
3-5 days should be about right
Your dad is great. He needs to make more cameos in future videos.
Glad you enjoyed his contribution!
Love the dry dad humour LOL
He always has something funny to say haha
thanxx for sharing. if you guys come around Düsseldorf / Germany Area please let me know and we enjoy some Alt Biers together ;)
That’s awesome man!!!!
🍺🍺👍🏻👍🏻😎
Thanks man!
Great tasting section LOL
"If Sumerians could do it I figured I could too"
Exactly!
Your Dad needs to be on more tastings
I'll have to try to do it again!
That party time shirt brings me back to 1993... good times
This recipe sounds intriguing enough to want to try. 🤔
Give it a try and let me know how it turns out!
@@TheApartmentBrewer It's getting hotter than hell in my neck of the woods to be ordering liquid yeast online, so I'm leaning towards usings some Lalbrew dry Voss Kveik.
@@lonewolf9390 that's a great choice!
I just kicked a BRU-1 SMaSH, it went way too fast. It was delicious definitely like the BRU-1.
This kind of beer doesn't stick around long!
Kind of wondering how a dry hop charge of sabro might go down in this.
Oooo pina colada vibes
@@TheApartmentBrewer exactly what I was thinking :)
Carry on 🍻
Your dad is amazing! Please make more Videos with him! Is he Born in germany? Greetz from swabia, germany!❤
I'll see if I can get him on more often! He's not born there but his side of the family got off the boat a few generations back