Frank, I wanted to let others know, who watch your videos, that you are indeed correct on these chemicles being found in the wood of the old Cremona violins, and others can verify this by doing a google search " chemicles found in stradvarius violins". You are one smart man Frank, again thanks for your videos.
thanks i was always fascinated by the subject and have read many publications and done many experiments over the last 35 years ! check out my video boil linseed oil to scorch a feather
no need for gelatin! my ideas are based on a cambridge uni EDAX examination which did not show boron but it may appear in other tests as the original source of the silicate was volcanic ash containing several compounds . no propolis in ground
see part 2 of 4 at around 8 minutes for example of varnish it is not shaded i think the shading is produced by the rubbing down of the varnish by repairers over the years, you do the experiment !
Im starting my first violin. How long do I have to wait for this type of ground to dry before oil painting? I plan on finding a simple wood primer like this and using oil paints for my color layer and then use a clear/ natural varnish. Do you know if this process would work? I'm definitely more interested in how they did it back then than doing anything modern. Let's face it Amati had no idea what U.V. was let alone have a box that contains it. Im wanting to use as much household or readily available materials as possible. Hints the oil paint "they definitely had that" and natural varnish. Obviously I'll be cheating a bit if I go a French polish or wet sand and buff route but that's for a different discussion. What are the chemicals you used exactly? I see you can get them on ebay but obscure lab chemicals aren't my specialty forgive me.
half an hour to dry the silicate enough then about 24 hours after washing with lime water ,this is a chemical reaction which needs time to set like cement ,do not try to speed it up then on day 3 wash it off with ferric chloride and allow one more day to dry , then its good to go , i think it is better to mix a little oil paint in clear oil varnish then you will get transparent coloured varnish
@@frankpallister thanks. I have 0 experience with violins. I do work with wood but have never sealed or varnished anything. I suppose I will practice on scrap until I'm confident. I did look up the chemicals luckily I can get most of it in town. I do like the darker rather than the lighter finishes. I will just experiment until I find what works for me. I'm ordering an unfinished violin for my first project and will slowly get into making one from scratch but since varnish is my first hurdle its kind of where I'm forced to start. My biggest concern is gloss I think. I want it very glossy. I honestly don't care how it comes out other than that. I have experience wet sanding and buffing paint for automotive applications but never using natural finishes. Im not sure how that will work out but from what I've read if my varnish is truly dry it should be a non issue. Even if I have to wait a few months to let the varnish cure harden and age. Would you say thats about right or will it happen quicker than I think. I really just want to stay away from modern finishes because to me it defeats the purpose of the challenge. I could throw some automotive clear over it and nobody would ever know and would wonder how I got it so shiny but again its sort of cheating in my opinion. But thank you so much for your helpful insight. I was sold on a plaster ground or egg whites before I saw this.
@@robertl6770 varnishing violins is a complex subject ,if you could buy a jar of violin varnish then i would say just use that but in my experience they are all lacking the qualities of the old Cremonese i like my own varnish but it took many years experimenting to make. the best work i found was Michelson -violin varnish but it has several flaws number one of which is his completely ignoring the instruction to boil linseed oil til it scorches a feather(see my youtube vid )
Sorry Frank, your right of course, and thanks for personally telling me, and can you please tell me where to buy these 3 things your using on this violin? I would like to try this on the inside of an old violin I have. Thanks again. E.C.
Hello Frank the potassium silicate I looked at on eBay mentioned it was for improving plant growth. Would this be the same potassium you are using on the violin ? This may seem a stupid question but having no scientific background I was not sure if there was a different between the fertiliser version and the one you were using. I have finished my first violin and am now making two more and which I intend using your method for the ground coat. Thanks again for sharing this.👍 Also is Ferric chloride the same thing as iron chloride? I have seen marked as Ferric chloride/99%iron chloride. Apologies once again, I guess for you these may seem stupid questions, from my none scientific perspective I am clueless.
alas i have no experience of the plant growth variety and cannot give a good answer but it will probably be ok keep looking on ebay in scientific - lab supplies i think the good stuff is there ! your ferric/iron chloride is fine
By the way how’s the varnish you were making progressing, you had a plan to market it, I would buy some if it became available. I was considering having a go at making some although it seems a bit of a dangerous process. I may just purchase some instead.
This may be a stupid question Frank, if I wonted to stain the violin would it have to be done before applying the treatment? As you say it becomes waterproof. Or would you not stain and put the colour in the following coats of varnish.
i have no experience of staining the ground layer but i think the surface would take stain .best thing would be to have a test run on some scrap wood that you have prepared with the ground, always valuable ! also from reading i would not expect the blue to be a dense colour but translucent as calcium silicate is a blanc fix (wiki) which is why it does not obscure the wood grain
Frank Pallister thanks Frank I will do some tests on scrap wood. I’m just about to start making my first violin. I’ve bought a couple of books which are very good regarding building the instrument but a bit vague when it comes to grounds and sealing the wood etc. So thanks for posting the videos as they have been a great help. Are you a scientist just wondered because of your chemical knowledge. Thanks
yes i have a Bsc in applied biology but did not make a career with it i was always more into chemistry, then got into violin making and repairing @@bluehoo0
Wow a luthier that actually speaks! Can't understand him because of the background noises, but what the hey! Potasium silicate and limewater? Due to the toxic nature of these materials combined with the fact he uses no protective equipment he's probably on a respirator now!
Hello Frank - I like this treatment to the wood.I was wondering if the viscous substance of the aloe gel could improve the sound of the violin.The Aloe gel has lot of minerals in his structure.Maybe using the Aloe gel in previous coats or as a previous step to this treatment you use.Is an idea to check.What do you think? Regards.
Hi, I was wondering if you have any long term issues with these chemicals once you seal the wood with varnish. And how long do you have to wait? Many thanks for sharing the video with us.
What is the name of this solution you are using, I could not hear it for the storm in the background?? Smart enough to take a violin apart, but too dumb to record when it's not storming outside.
very atmospheric with the rain outside ;-)
Frank, I wanted to let others know, who watch your videos, that you are indeed correct on these chemicles being found in the wood of the old Cremona violins, and others can verify this by doing a google search " chemicles found in stradvarius violins". You are one smart man Frank, again thanks for your videos.
thanks i was always fascinated by the subject and have read many publications and done many experiments over the last 35 years ! check out my video boil linseed oil to scorch a feather
Guylaine Collett 8
Thank you for your knowledge.
Hi Frank, just found and watched your series of videos, (4). Very interesting and well presented. Will you be doing any further videos on varnishing?
i have some more stuff coming about making varnish resins , have you seen - boil linseed oil to scorch a feather , which is on youtube
Thank you Frank and yes I have seen that one too. Look forward to seeing more.
Thank you for your series, very interesting! Do you then use gelatin over this? Any thoughts on how they incorporated boron and propolis?
no need for gelatin! my ideas are based on a cambridge uni EDAX examination which did not show boron but it may appear in other tests as the original source of the silicate was volcanic ash containing several compounds . no propolis in ground
Hello Frank, thanks for your videos! Do you treat the bass bar also, I couldn't see on the video? Thanks for your time.
i do treat the bass barr and also the neck and bridge , so that is everything but the ebony !
do you have a video showing the coloring of violin; I wanna see the shaded flamy sun burst like color being done.
see part 2 of 4 at around 8 minutes for example of varnish it is not shaded i think the shading is produced by the rubbing down of the varnish by repairers over the years, you do the experiment !
Im starting my first violin. How long do I have to wait for this type of ground to dry before oil painting? I plan on finding a simple wood primer like this and using oil paints for my color layer and then use a clear/ natural varnish. Do you know if this process would work? I'm definitely more interested in how they did it back then than doing anything modern. Let's face it Amati had no idea what U.V. was let alone have a box that contains it. Im wanting to use as much household or readily available materials as possible. Hints the oil paint "they definitely had that" and natural varnish. Obviously I'll be cheating a bit if I go a French polish or wet sand and buff route but that's for a different discussion. What are the chemicals you used exactly? I see you can get them on ebay but obscure lab chemicals aren't my specialty forgive me.
half an hour to dry the silicate enough then about 24 hours after washing with lime water ,this is a chemical reaction which needs time to set like cement ,do not try to speed it up then on day 3 wash it off with ferric chloride and allow one more day to dry , then its good to go , i think it is better to mix a little oil paint in clear oil varnish then you will get transparent coloured varnish
@@frankpallister thank you. So its fairly common practice to use oil paint for your color layer?
@@robertl6770 when diluted a little so that the woodgrain is visible but it is a large subject !
@@frankpallister thanks. I have 0 experience with violins. I do work with wood but have never sealed or varnished anything. I suppose I will practice on scrap until I'm confident. I did look up the chemicals luckily I can get most of it in town. I do like the darker rather than the lighter finishes. I will just experiment until I find what works for me. I'm ordering an unfinished violin for my first project and will slowly get into making one from scratch but since varnish is my first hurdle its kind of where I'm forced to start. My biggest concern is gloss I think. I want it very glossy. I honestly don't care how it comes out other than that. I have experience wet sanding and buffing paint for automotive applications but never using natural finishes. Im not sure how that will work out but from what I've read if my varnish is truly dry it should be a non issue. Even if I have to wait a few months to let the varnish cure harden and age. Would you say thats about right or will it happen quicker than I think. I really just want to stay away from modern finishes because to me it defeats the purpose of the challenge. I could throw some automotive clear over it and nobody would ever know and would wonder how I got it so shiny but again its sort of cheating in my opinion.
But thank you so much for your helpful insight. I was sold on a plaster ground or egg whites before I saw this.
@@robertl6770 varnishing violins is a complex subject ,if you could buy a jar of violin varnish then i would say just use that but in my experience they are all lacking the qualities of the old Cremonese i like my own varnish but it took many years experimenting to make. the best work i found was Michelson -violin varnish but it has several flaws number one of which is his completely ignoring the instruction to boil linseed oil til it scorches a feather(see my youtube vid )
Sorry Frank, your right of course, and thanks for personally telling me, and can you please tell me where to buy these 3 things your using on this violin? I would like to try this on the inside of an old violin I have. Thanks again. E.C.
ebay lab supplies should work. i bought mine 30years ago from shops in york that are no longer there !
Hello Frank the potassium silicate I looked at on eBay mentioned it was for improving plant growth. Would this be the same potassium you are using on the violin ? This may seem a stupid question but having no scientific background I was not sure if there was a different between the fertiliser version and the one you were using. I have finished my first violin and am now making two more and which I intend using your method for the ground coat. Thanks again for sharing this.👍 Also is Ferric chloride the same thing as iron chloride? I have seen marked as Ferric chloride/99%iron chloride. Apologies once again, I guess for you these may seem stupid questions, from my none scientific perspective I am clueless.
alas i have no experience of the plant growth variety and cannot give a good answer but it will probably be ok keep looking on ebay in scientific - lab supplies i think the good stuff is there ! your ferric/iron chloride is fine
By the way how’s the varnish you were making progressing, you had a plan to market it, I would buy some if it became available. I was considering having a go at making some although it seems a bit of a dangerous process. I may just purchase some instead.
@@bluehoo0 sorry not going to happen now but its not too dangerous compared with sky diving say
This may be a stupid question Frank, if I wonted to stain the violin would it have to be done before applying the treatment? As you say it becomes waterproof. Or would you not stain and put the colour in the following coats of varnish.
i have no experience of staining the ground layer but i think the surface would take stain .best thing would be to have a test run on some scrap wood that you have prepared with the ground, always valuable ! also from reading i would not expect the blue to be a dense colour but translucent as calcium silicate is a blanc fix (wiki) which is why it does not obscure the wood grain
Frank Pallister thanks Frank I will do some tests on scrap wood. I’m just about to start making my first violin. I’ve bought a couple of books which are very good regarding building the instrument but a bit vague when it comes to grounds and sealing the wood etc. So thanks for posting the videos as they have been a great help. Are you a scientist just wondered because of your chemical knowledge. Thanks
yes i have a Bsc in applied biology but did not make a career with it i was always more into chemistry, then got into violin making and repairing @@bluehoo0
Wow a luthier that actually speaks! Can't understand him because of the background noises, but what the hey! Potasium silicate and limewater? Due to the toxic nature of these materials combined with the fact he uses no protective equipment he's probably on a respirator now!
these chemicals are all around you and you would die without them
Hello Frank - I like this treatment to the wood.I was wondering if the viscous substance of the aloe gel could improve the sound of the violin.The Aloe gel has lot of minerals in his structure.Maybe using the Aloe gel in previous coats or as a previous step to this treatment you use.Is an idea to check.What do you think?
Regards.
i know nothing of this !
Hi,
I was wondering if you have any long term issues with these chemicals once you seal the wood with varnish. And how long do you have to wait?
Many thanks for sharing the video with us.
i gave a violin this treatment in 1985 and can see no adverse effects 2016
What is the name of this solution you are using, I could not hear it for the storm in the background?? Smart enough to take a violin apart, but too dumb to record when it's not storming outside.
pottasium silicate followed by limewater . time and tide wait for no man ! camera man not always around when i am doing stuff
Poor quality of sound.