How to Set Up a Delayed speaker in a Nightclub - Live Sound System Fill Speakers
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- Опубліковано 18 лис 2014
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Delaying a 'fill speaker' is pretty easy with a simple set up and calculation. And it improves intelligibility quite a bit!!
Second person I see with this name. Parents are legendary 😂
Great video. You did a great job explaining setting delay. One suggestion is to add a millisecond or two to the delay speakers to improve localization. If I am sitting behind the delay speaker and the fronts and delay speakers are exactly aligned, the sound will appear to come from the delay speaker because of volume precedence. You localize on the louder sound source. But if you add a millisecond or two to the delay speaker and are sitting behind the delay speaker, you will hear the sound from the stage first and then the sound from the delay speaker. The ear will localize on the source of stage because it hears it first even if that sound is significantly quieter. As I recall this is often referred to first reflection localization.
This is why hard panning of spoken words does not work very well if the audience's distance to the speakers is less than the distance between two speaker stacks on stage and you are off to one side. Hard panning to the other side only makes the spoken work sound softer. It does not pan the sound to the other side of the stage because you localize on the much quieter speaker in front of you even though the far speaker is much louder.
Try it yourself. If your speaker are 75' (25m) apart, sit to the side of the auditorium directly in front of one of the speaker stacks about 50' (17m) back and play back a spoken word audio track. Close your eyes and pan the track back and forth, hard right, hard left. Does the sound appear to move smoothly across the sound field? Or do you hear it getting louder and softer and it only changes location when the pan reaches it's extremes? To correctly pan in this part of the auditorium is to use delay to pan the sound. Adding delay to the side of the channel feeding the speakers in front of you will pan the sound to the other side without using the pan pot or changing the signal level.
This demo is thanks to David Robb at the now defunct Live Sound Workshop back in the late 90's. David Robb is a world renowned Broadway and music hall (auditorium) sound system designer.
Thanks, buck! your awesome, great teacher. I'm Jame Fensound,s #2 @ comfort Zone Night Club. sound tech.
Very cool!!
Finally a video which makes it simpler.Great Job.
Great video. Short and to the point, with great examples!
Nice. I never knew this. This can massively clean up your sound. tks
Great explanation, math and the demo is the icing on the cake!
Thank you very Much for this Video.. more tutorials to come!!!!
Brilliant informative film! Thanks for that. It's the same when you put headphones on at the front of house mixer. I have a little guitar delay foot pedal. You are brilliant at your job! At last, someone who really knows what they are talking about. We can learn from you. Thanks again, David.
Cheers and thanks for your comments! Much appreciated!
Very professional clearly explained thanks :)
Demo at the end was great, ty!
Very nice explanation. you rock!
Well done! Well explained!!!
Thank you BaconTrees. Very straight forward and understandable.
Thank you! Cheers!
Good demonstration at the end, make sense
Jesus thats crazy! Awesome vid
Great explained
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, I use my Yamaha REV100 it's work very good, what I did was I insert output from Matrix out to yamaha Rev100 and to DBX 2231 Eq.
Great video
amazing explained! thank you!
Cheers!! Glad it can help!
WOW - impressive example
thanks for the advice.
Nice Video !
thank you ! u saved me
You are awesome 👏
THis helps a great LOT. Thank you.
Adjusting the delay to a transient sound is a great trick as getting an accurate measurement of distance isnt always easy.
I totally agree! Hitting drumsticks together will work for a transient.
Fantastic, simple and helpful video. Would I need to add a delay to centre fill speakers if they are not perfectly in line with the main FOH? Our mains are flown 5m up and slightly back from the front of the stage. The fill speaker would be on the front edge of the stage.
+James Cartwright - sorry I missed this! I have never delayed speakers at the FOH but I know some mixers who have. If I had a time-align delay available, I would, but then I figure, with the band already having amps not lined up with FOH, it probably won't be too noticeable when a FOH speaker isn't perfectly lined up with other FOH speakers.
I really appreciate the wisdom that you shared, very helpful!
But Dude, if you are doing an audio presentation, you have to take all that white noise out of the background! I literally jumped up and ran into the bathroom because I though that my toilet was running over :)
i will try this process but it did not working. kindly, tell the process system. it's means (delay unit feedback how much percentage, delay time 50feet distance how much percentage, Ballance how much percentage etc.
Great Video! Question, do you run the delay feed out of the aux pre or post fader? This video is very helpful
+lookin2jam23 - Thanks! Great question - Going pre or post is a choice depending on how much master control and balance you want. But I would choose post fader if I make a mix through the auxes, because the mix decisions will be at both ends, then if I fade the channels down for music to play after a set, it will be faster for me to make the change as it is easy to wipe the mix and not have to zero the auxes as well.
But, if I want to balance the front and back (delayed) mix levels differently, I would do it pre-fader so the delayed mix stays constant - but then, if I gain ride the FOH mix, I have to choose how that will affect the delayed speakers.
Since I can't monitor the delayed mix as accurately as the FOH, and Mostly vocals and guitars, etc (not bass drums or bass guitars) are being delayed, I am happy to have a separate delayed mix pre fader. If I send the whole delayed signal from a parallel output of an EQ, it's post fader anyway.
Both will work depending on how you want to control it.
this is the first time i learned what is delay speaker is. NOw my question is will audience at the back notice singer's mouth or reaction of the body is a bit early than music?. I hope you got what I mean. Thank you
Thanks for the reply! The audience won't notice any performer sync issues if the delayed speakers are set up. They will notice the person out of sync with no delayed speakers as light travels much faster than sound, but that would happen in very large concerts. Watching jumbo screens at many concerts (of about 20,000), I have never noticed any sync issues. Cheers!
Thank you so much for this video, it is very informative. . . Now i know how to do calculations when running delays. . . I just have a quick question though. . . What if the rear speakers are on the back wall facing front of house do you still implement the same delay structure or would it be different , in other words you have a 100 x100 room and there is speakers in each of the 4 corners and they are all facing the center of the room. How would you implement a delay with such a situation? I would be very appreciative of any answers.
The reason I ask is I have 2 Mackie C300z[there the passive srm450] and a Behringer b215xl I use the mackies as FOH but there are times I would Like to put the Behringer against the back wall facing FOH, that way the back of the venue has sound while at the same time providing me a make shift monitor so that I can hear the highs of my mix, I never implemented this before for fear of latency with the sound, but I know there must a way to do this so that all the speakers are in alignment with each other. Any Suggestions would be greatly appreciated ,
Hi there! The speakers should all be pointing the same way. The reason is that they are sending most mids and highs in one direction (the intelligibility portion of the spectrum), therefore the sound from the back of the room will be slapped back to the FOH area. If you delayed the rear speakers so that you heard the FOH and delayed speakers at the same time at the mixing position, then the people in the front and back of the room will still hear a delay because of the different arrival times in those areas. In short, they must be aimed in the same direction.
I can't say I disagree with the logic of your comment, what you say makes perfect sense. . . . however I do know this set up is implemented on many dance floors in clubs aka the 4 corners approach where they put a speaker in every corner of the dance floor all facing the center of the dance floor, is there anything they do in particular that maximizes alignment in such set up, or they just all nieve? lol
Since every speaker has a time-path, being in the middle of them all would be the best spot with 4 speakers, one in each corner facing the middle. But, when such systems are set up, the average bar owner doesn't know anything about time delay of sound. So, if they must remain in the corners, perhaps a) pointing them at a downward angle would help, or b) put a set of speakers in between them to help fill in the area where delay is most noticeable. Let me know if this helps.
Great video! Question: why did you use a DI box to convert the signal to XLR when there was a 1/4" input jack available on that speaker? Genuinely curious, thanks.
Thanks! As a rule of thumb, I run unbalanced lines no more than about 20 feet. So a balanced XLR could give me choices from 50 to 75 feet back with a clean, strong signal. Cheers!
That makes sense. Thank you!@@bacontrees
How can I delay powered speakers. I have two different powered speakers that I want to play together but there is a delay in the optical one. Is there a device that can achieve this
The feed always has to be split with one signal being sent through a delay device...so, no matter what speaker, the delayed fill speaker must somehow get a delayed signal...I'm not sure how your system is wired with the optical speaker?
hi, can i use the delay in the fx processor as my delayed speaker application?
Any delay can be used if the signal is sent to it, before the s;peaker.
What if a have a third speaker in a row but all three speakers are 20 ft appart frome each one , the second speaker wouldnt need a delay but what about the third? If it need from where would you set it from the second or the first?
Great question! Upon setting speaker zones at a large corporate event a few years ago, I had discovered that if the speakers are within 20 feet or so apart, the delay was not noticeable. So, the speaker in the middle tends to 'fill in the gap' and further even out the volume in the room.
The rooms I tried it in were wide and had 3 speakers per side to fill the gaps between speakers, all daisy-chained together (actually, when I used the Anchor min PA's for vocals and playback, the main speaker was daisy-chained to the firs fill speaker, then the second was parallel out, so the 2nd speaker's volume controlled the 3rd).
This is like a horizontal 'distributed system' set-up.
I have yamaha rev 100, has dry and wet and delay time, can I use it and how it work,
I'm not certain that the Rev 100 has a programmable delay in discreet ms. You would need a dedicated delay unit and then you would use 'wet' signal only, not mixed with any original signal. Let me know if this helps...cheers!
@@bacontrees what type of delay unit do you recommend
Hello 2 question.1 question is let's say we don't have opportunity to put our foh in the middle or back of the club.So in this possition should we use delay other way when we don't use delay?and 2 question why did you use di box for delayed speaker.Thank you)
I'm not sure I understand the first question, as the speakers in the middle of the room are not FOH; they are the 'delay' speakers. This is the way it should be as the speakers have to point in the same direction. For #2, I used a DI box because the delay unit was only 1/4" TS out, so a long cable run should be balanced and the DI allowed for that, to be fed into the powered speaker's XLR input.
Thank you for answer my question.I was in one event there has been set up mixer not in the middle of the hall i guess you got me the mixer in the left side of the hall i asked to the engineer about the side speaker work with delay he asked me why it doesn't need.So this reason i asked does it means where to put speakers for delay speakers
What would be the formula with meters in stead of feets? The same?
+Nazario Meshoulam - you could try "2.89xD" for meters....seems pretty accurate. For example, .88x100ft= 88ms, .88x50ft= 44ms, .88x200ft= 176ms.....2.89x30.48m= 88.08ms, 2.89x15.24m= 44.04ms, 2.89x60.96m= 176.17ms (if 1 ft = .3048 m)
sir, i am saikat. i want to know that the delayed speaker system which echo processor is i use and how?
Any delay unit, which can produce a delay time with no repetitions and have a 'delay only' output, will work. This is a delay from the 80's (Roland SDE-1000), so there are many more units available now...such as the Behringer 'Shark' DSP110.
what do we use to delay the speakers?
Any digital delay will work if it can be programmed. The Aux send goes through the delay unit, then to the powered speaker...in this case, through a DI box because the delay unit output is 1/4 inch, so I could run a long line of XLR cable to the speaker. Cheers!
great vid, reason for using di box? thanks
Yes, I didn't want to run a long, unbalanced 1/4" cable to the speaker, so the DI box provides an XLR to run the distance. I should have been clear about that....cheers!!
I see thanks again!
kindly elaborate the easiest means of finding delay without any software
There is no software here, just the equation. Aside from the equation, you can clap drum sticks in front of a mic and adjust delay time until the delayed speaker sounds sync'd up with the front of house speakers. The drum sticks work because they act as a loud transient if clapped slowly.
Can i use my behringer dcx2496 for delay
+gracelyn castro - probably not, but any delay unit that can have delays from between 20ms and higher will be useful, as a dedicated speaker delay. I think the unit you mentioned is a speaker management system (Crossover plus...) similar to the DBX Drive Rack.....I think the delays inside are simply for time-alignment to correct for speaker placement at the front of house, but not for delayed 'fill' speaker......I will look closely at the manual....
+bacontrees thanks alot
what delay unit will you suggest to use?
Ok
Probably a stupid question. But does sound travel faster or slower at different altitude? Example being. If you were setting up in a long room on top of mt Everest. Would the delay speaker be set different than say a long room at the equator. Where it’s thick hot humid air. Or does sound travel at that speed regardless of location. Even in space? Hahaha sorry. This question even looks dumb as I’m typing it
Sound speed in air changes with the environment, especially humid/warm and cold air masses. From research I did years ago, sound travels at 1127.42 ft/sec at 50% humidity and 70 degrees F, rising 1.1 ft/sec per degree rise in F. I am unsure about the altitude fluctuations as I've never been in such a situation way up high.
But, at normal levels (sea level, for example, or near it), and normal temperatures, sound doesn't fluctuate that much....if you were to increase the temperature in Celsius by 100 degrees, it would start to move noticeably faster...but, you would only need to adjust the delay time of speakers a little to account for the speed change, and most people won't notice if it fluctuated up to 20ms, assuming the delayed speaker is less loud than the FOH PA system.
bacontrees thanks man!
your hand were beater than the graphic pic
I did that on MS Paint. Did the best I could...cheers!