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TAIJI vs MMA
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- Опубліковано 18 сер 2024
- Can one really compare ?
Ismet Himmets take on TAIJIQUAN & MMA + various traditional Styles.
LEARN ISMET HIMMET KUNGFU HERE: www.shizaam.one
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Traditional Chinese martial arts suffers in the same way traditional Chinese medicine does. Since 1949, so much has been lost, destroyed, misunderstood, misinterpreted, falsified. It's enough to make one weep.
This is true but Tai Chi Chuan has always had the problem with very few real practitioners. Yang Lui Bao warned that if you don't practice combat then you are not doing Tai Chi Chuan. Tai Chi Chuan is a fighting art that was designed for war, but much of the techniques have been watered down and forgotten how to be used. You see it in some of these fights.
One could say that MMA (as a sport) and Taiji were subject to different evolutionary pressures. They're specialized for different contexts, which is why it's not useful to compare them. Asking which is better is asking the wrong question.
It reminds me of a scene from the new Ghostbusters movie, where the secretary (Chris Evans), who is also a model, shows a couple of pictures asking, "Which do you think makes me look more like a doctor: Me playing the saxophone, or me /listening/ to the saxophone?"
Anyway, good video.
Very good insight. I myself am a practicing martial artist, and have tried many styles: taiji, BJJ, kickboxing, boxing, Shaolin and even MMA. I will say this much: each one is designed for particular use (as is said in the video). I believe that in order to be better you must incorporate wisdom from ALL sources. Essentially, if you want to be good at everything, you must practice everything.
Every style is both similar and different in some way. To practice all those ways gives you a lot of tools in your arsenal. The boxers striking hands and bull like endurance. The flow and correct balance of taiji. The power of muay Thai. And even the mortal pain BJJ can inflict. They all specialise to a degree.
However I will also say this: through my experience, I believe Kung Fu and it's styles represent the most (and if not the oldest) COMPLETE systems out there.
There is HUGE and I mean HUGE emphasis on the fundamentals of fighting in Kung Fu - strength, endurance, flexibility, structure, calmness, and even meditation. All of these build a rock steady foundation for not only fighting, but for better health and indeed (through my experience) the wisdom and physicality needed to endure any sport or activity.
The deeper meaning Kung Fu gave me (beyond that of the physical practice) were the key fundamentals that are found in all styles, in all martial arts. And indeed by extension, nearly everything we do. How we live. Even how we breathe.
Kung Fu has taught me adaptability is the way to "win" or at least "neutralise" conflicts. That practicing all ways, all forms, all intensities, and in essence, exploring the mind and body wholey and fully, is the essence of martial arts.
It is the concept of winning through fighting, but not just this. Winning yourself. Winning over emotions. The mind. The sense of freeing yourself and yet remaining completely in control.
It is indeed such a hard concept to grasp that is only really taught through its practice. The movements represent how your body works, adapts and grows. Your mind gives you imagination and the concept of play. And with it, freedom.
To be good in everything, to have complete control of yourself in any and all situations is the pinnacle of martial arts.
To know all intensities of striking power, all throws, all locks, all positions, all situations, structure, balance, strength, flexibility - how far are you as a martial artist willing to go?
The answer is quite simply: as far as you are willing.
Free your mind. And explore the limits your abilities.
For I think it makes for a rather fulfilling life. Personally.
From an avid CMA practitioner...
First let me say that Himmet's CMA is spectacular.
For me, I love Chinese martial arts. I am a multiple grand champion and have studied in China. I have taught CMA for over 20 years. I have done many 6-hour Tai Chi forms - moving so slowly that it takes 6 hours to do a form. Kung Fu changed may life.
BUT, if Chinese martial arts were as effective as MMA at fighting, then you would see people training in Chinese martial arts to compete MMA. A few have tried, like Yi Long - amateur MMA guy that never went pro. It's just not happening. I'm also tired of people from all martial arts saying that the rules in MMA prevent the alleged 'brutal effectiveness' of Chinese martial arts or other styles.
That said, MMA, while IMO is the best for learning to fight quickly, you will get injured, and if you do it long enough, those injuries will be permanent. With Chinese martial arts, it will take much longer to learn to fight well, but you'll get little or no injuries, and you'll have the immense mental and physical benefits particularly with the internal styles. You can practice CMA, catch up with the MMA guy once he's injured and take him out, but head to head, if a well-trained MMA guy went against a well-trained CMA guy, the CMA guy would typically lose. And that's OK. Let's just keep the shit real.
While the beginning student may be motivated by the desire to build self defence techniques several years of training in any legitimate martial art will teach one to defend oneself. However after decades of practice this motivation becomes a faded memory. The desire to create moments of quiet , moving meditation that refreshes the mind, body and spirit become the true goal. After almost fifty years of study and practice I have come to realise that building the mental, physical and emotional health that enhances the student for a lifetime is far more important than anything else. On a personal note I must say that I find Mr. Himmets art absolutely sublime. A true work of beauty and impeccable posture. My only regret is that I am too old to do more than admire his skill. If I was younger I would paddle my way to China to learn from this exceptional teacher.
MMA means mixed martial arts, so the question and answer even have to be more specific.
I don't know tai chi that well but from what I remember tai ji has striking and grappling and could be considered a complete martial art but you need a skilled fighter to select the techniques and there's no problem
First of all...my respect to you...because I would say you are truly an authority on the traditional Chinese “soft" martial arts...and had really embraced them...salute to you...and I agree with you completely...practitioners of Kung Fu had no business messing around with mma...because we are simply not trained for the rings and cages fighting...we are talking about health and internal development...BUT...I had seen a true master whom I had the good fortune to study under...at that time in the 60s, 70s, 80s...no fighters...whether street...karate...and other martial arts...can get close enough to mess with him...he really got “qi"...a true tai ji grandmaster...master Huang Shin Shyan...from Malaysia
Max Chung Thank You. I know Huang Shifu. He is one outstanding exception that confirms the rule.
I very much disagree with the points you are making. I do believe that mma is different than taiji. but its not the style that wins but the fighter. taiji has strikes, take downs and take down defences. In a ring MMA has an advantage but I would also say it has the advantage on the street as well, excluding weapons. The only reason I think this is because most traditional arts don't train the basics of fighting. they train the fancy things that do little to help you protect yourself. stand up juijitsu, judo, sanda, suia jiao, Kuokoshin karate, boxing, bjj, wrestling, Thai. What these arts have in common that most traditional arts don't is fighting. they no basic foot work better, they know how to defend and attack better only because they practice it. I agree some parts of arts can not translate because of the deadly nature but the basics still need to be developed. btw. I practice neijia gong fu, but I also mix it up with other fighters to learn more about myself.
Look up Choy Li Fut
You seem to think that the "fancy things that do little to help protect yourself" in traditional martial arts training are taught in order to be directly used in fight (in which case obviously yes, they would do little to help protect yourself). That is as wrong as seeing a boxer training with the speedball and thinking that he is going to use that kind of punches in a fight. That's not right. The "fancy things" in training are not there to make the style look fancy or to be used directly in a fight, they are there to train the body to automatically move in a certain way, always seek balance, spontaneously react in a certain way to attacks, this kind of things.
Must be well rounded , sport is just that ,fight experience is everything . Imo.
at 4:37 when ismet talks about good flow of chi a bird goes by the camera :)
Thank you for discussing this difficult point. It's good that this fight happened between Chen Taiji Master and simple MMA fighter. We discovered that taiji is not efficient in front of a well trained fighter and that's all... I actually never thought taiji was an efficient fighting system. To become a fighter, taiji training is a loss of time. We also discover that taiji and Qi Gong are not efficient for health. The Qi Masters usually die before the average chinese statistic death age. By the way, chinese people live less old than european people. Health secrets are still: Proper food, few alcohol, no smoking, good training and good sleep...
I still love taiji and chinese martial art and wake up every morning, missing a bit of sleeping to study them with passion and joy.
For me it's art. Such a rich art, that involve total human: Body, mind, spirit, mental, cultural...
Also, these traditional martial arts have been developed in a very subtle culture builded round rituals. Kong zi gave china a lot of tools to develop the "living together", to open a space where humanity can express itself.
For me, taiji was developed by confucianists ( actually it seems to be more and more the true historical background of our art) in a very trouble time when china had to deal with a lot of aliens: Mandous, Europeans and Japanese... Very very hard time where opium replaced dignity.
I believe that working hard taiji and it's martial strategies and skills develop's a Zhen Ren, a real human, able to live and stay peaceful in hard time. I hope it develops also compassion...
Thank you Mr Himmet for all your hard and sincere work. Thank you for sharing with the community through internet. Your videos are asking, and this often raises uncomfortable questions to me. Great! It makes me wake up and train every morning! Oh training! it's so good! No other ways to find answers...
He was not a chen tai chi master. he was failed mma figjter
Thanks for sharing your opinion on this topic Ismet. Just watching Mirko Cro Cop Filipović vs Nobuhiko Takada (2001) (it's here on youtube) is enough to show what MMA is really all about. Takada sat down to avoid Cro Cop's heavy kicks; utilising the MMA bout rules of no kicking an opponent who is down on the floor. The whole match looked like a joke as a result. There's that aspect, and then the other rule of no hitting to the back of the head - when grapplers tend to be head-forward, and reveal the back of their heads when successfully sprawled. Normally that factor would be capitalized on by a street fighter, and Chen style taiji move 'Buddha's attendant pounds the mortar' seems to be doing just that. When your opponent can just sit down and avoid kicks and knees, and present the back of their head to you without fear, then what is MMA really training? UFC was created by the Gracies to promote BJJ, and the octagon and its rules is still doing that. It's all set up to give floor grappling an advantage over striking.
I started my training with MMA and muay thai but I say learning Taichi and its theories made me fall in love. I fully believe you can use the techniques in the octagon and it would shake up the meta. People would cry that it doesn't look like taichi but taichi at the highest level abandons form and the human body only moves in so many ways! A punch is a punch a kick is a kick. There's not many rules that stop the techniques you can gleam from taichi.
MMA is effective and certainly better than nothing, but their combat system is filled with rules focused around keeping the fighters alive and intact. In any situation where the intent is to devastate, maim, or kill the enemy, a fighter trained to target points on the body that deliver these results will better the man who only knows to restrain or shock the appointment. If MMA were truly "No rules" their fighters wouldn't last long, and the fights would be only seconds in length.
Agree on that but only up to the last sentence. Seconds of a fight happens either when some one hits the lucky punch, or the skill level is far different between the fighters.. if not fight will last until they gas out... And if you got 'trained' ppl they will not gas out quickly. I witnessed and/or know of good friends who fought 30 minutes straight and it was all in, no rules such as in irish bareknuckle etc. Both skilled and none of them did make it easy for the other one.
@@youlihan good point! I did not see it from that angle.
In order to be effective with any system of combat you must be competent in all aspects of fighting (boxing, clinching, etc), so that you can avoid the ranges of combat that disadvantage you and engage the ranges of combat that you are good at (like a taekwondo fighter avoiding close distance to use his kicks or a BJJ fighter avoiding the long distance to engage the clinch and use his grappling).
I learned different martial arts for fighting, I'm learning tai chi for me. I love it, can't wait to be standard.
Also ich habe Wing Chun bis zum zehnten grad Oberstufe Praktiziert und bin jetzt zu Yang, Chen und die Wudang San Feng Form über gegangen. Kann man die zwei Kampfkünste miteinander vergleichen oder eher nicht ?! Bin übrigens Schüler in der Kung-Fu Academy in Kaiserslautern und seit zwei Jahren Kursleiter.
fair argument. However, in the case of Tai Chi, is it only about what something is "designed" to do? Of cause, if you're referring to the more traditional schools who may be fixed on various lineages and ways of doing things and refuse to go outside their comfort zone, your right for the most part. But shouldn't the real question be 'can it's methodology adapt?' If the essence of Tai Chi is about the Tao, Mindfulness, true nature, knowing, harmony of Yin-Yang, how can you say it was only meant to be applied within this or that context?
Respect
nos primeiros instantes você falou tudo. nos primeiros instantes você disse tudo.
I like to See Ismet vs xu xiadong
Because taiji is not all the wushu but just a part of wushu!
Totally agree withthis point of vue for the kind of taiji he talk about. And i have my own ;)
For the subtitulos in Spanish please
on the first moments you said everything
I disagree with you Brother ; Tai Chi 's wrestling part work very well in MMA once the practitioner get into clinch position . Of course there is little of ground work in Tai Chi .
"No traditional martial arts were designed to defeat an MMA fighter." Very true, but I'm sure somewhere in China, someone's working on an anti-MMA style ;-) It's just like in Taiwan they adapted White Crane to come up with Golden Eagle style in order to take out the fighters who came over with the KMT (and taijiquan players in particular).
i'm sure too!
Im surprised that even people who do tai ji had no idea of tai ji fighting abielities.Depressiv people.Sorry thats wrong what you tell people .After culture revolution in china of the communist the aim was to destroy chinese martial arts.This idea comes from this bad development.
mma has the advantage in every situation except weapons because there isnt much of anything you'll find in any single style that mma doesnt cover. reason being mma isnt limited since its not a style unto itself. if u train in more than 1 martial art....then congrats, ur a mixed martial artist.
Is it really such a dumb argument, can't a man dream?
one can also argue this to be a thought-terminating cliché i.e. semantic "stop-sign", to discourage further investigation. Can you speak for advanced internal skill? There's evidence to suggest that training according to the pure Yijinjing method, can fine tune the mind/body to produce skills beyond what is achievable with martial arts alone, be it Jiujitsu, KungFu MMA or whatever. And when you say "Neigong" or "Tai Chi", or "Yijinjing" or any of these buzzwords, what's your actual Yard Stick here to determine what it actually is you're trying to achieve? The best Yard Stick in my opinion is the one of the Huang Xing Xian. He could stand on Japanese sandals and still yield and return force from a single point of contact. Before we even get into Martial Arts and combat, you need that kind of Yard Stick, of which internal skill, well refined Zhong Ding and balance is translated into your Martial Arts, so that we can clearly see it is not just gimmicks or clumsy force that looks cool, but genuine Internal Skill. Can you do that? Or at least are you training with a Master who can do that?
There's no conventional MMA fighter who can stand on Japanese sandals yield and return force from one point of contact. So the argument that modern training somehow accomplishes genuine Neigong as well doesn't stand.
Please impart your wisdom and enlighten me if I'm wrong and there's something I'm being ignorant or naive about, or something I missed.
But until then, this is a fine argument. It still stands. You just need to be a little more detailed and specific about what it is you're training to achieve
4:36 bats?
Ignorance. Tai Chi has 4 components. Grappling/wrestling are 1 of the 4. And in Tai Chi it's not about balance! It's about being grounded and with energy from the TanTien. Push hands demonstrates this grounding. Chin Na demonstrates joint locks and throws, which require grounding and very powerful legs and understanding your opponent's energy flow. Wish critics would study true Tai Chi forms and masters and not straw-man martial arts. One example is YMAA. Dr. Yang would never fight in a ring, if he did the opponent just wouldn't survive. The US Military knows this which is why he trained (surreptitiously) elite military at his mountain top center.