Moffitt says in his opening speech: “The inner man is capable of obedience effecting sanctification without a direct operation of the Spirit” I would affirm this statement, but this statement doesn’t disprove a literal indwelling. I’d argue it’s not that people can’t obey without a direct operation of the Spirit (that’s reformed theology), but rather that belief in Jesus (our response to the Gospel) seals us with the Spirit as a guarantee of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22). This is a guarantee that was not present prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus. In John 16:7 Jesus tells his disciples that if he does not go away the comforter could not come to them. Why would that be? We saw the Spirit come down and help people like David and all other authors of the Old Testament. We saw the Spirit empower prophets like Elijah to work miracles. So Jesus must’ve been referencing something else. Something the Spirit would do that the Spirit could not do under the law.. and that is that the Spirit couldn’t guarantee our salvation. The Spirit couldn’t bear witness with our Spirit that we were children of God (Romans 8:16).. because we all fall short (Romans 3:23) and the sacrifices made year after couldn’t justify us (Hebrews 10:1-3). We needed the ultimate sacrifice so we could be given the ultimate guarantee of our salvation. Now this guarantee is not just a seal, it is also a helper. I’d affirm that the Spirit works mostly through the Bible since that is God’s inspired Word in black and white. That doesn’t mean he cannot help in other ways just like he helped the Old Testament saints.
@@Seekingchristdaily Don’t know your definitions but man cannot sanctify himself as this sect in the Church of Christ implies. The Spirit is required. Ezekiel 36:27 and Rom 8:1-4 point to this. We are dead in trespasses. This is the reason the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost-not just to give sign gifts and inspire scripture (this teaching is part of biblical deism).This is the reason all Christians are baptized in the Spirit (Jn 1:33; Jn 3:5-8; 1 Cor 12:13). Man’s heart is desperately wicked and requires the work of God. This is why we are born from above of water (purification-blood) and Spirit. This is part of Campbell’s misunderstanding on steroids and over-reaction to Calvinist teaching. They go on and on about the Word, not comprehending that this does not contradict the indwelling of the Spirit. Two things can be true at the same time. The Spirit and the word can be both indwelling literally the Christian.
@@Seekingchristdaily I've been a preacher in churches of Christ over 40 years. Moffitt represents a very small, sectarian view in churches of Christ. I consider it heretical and very damaging to the christian faith. Deaver is much closer though he has some more work to do. Churches of Christ have suffered under early teaching of Alexander Campbell concerning the Holy Spirit. Our Colleges and Seminary do not teach Moffit's nonsense. It comes more from Baconian philosophy and not solid biblical exegesis and doctrine. They are small but very vocal and just wrong headed. Please do not believe this unorthodox teaching is characteristic of all the churches of Christ. It is an extreme group and an embarrassment to faithful churches of Christ. Every religious tradition have their extremist groups--these represent such a group. People really get the wrong view through them of our orthodoxy. I disagree with Baptist on some things, but not on the basic idea of the indwelling of the Spirit of God, which is essential to the salvation of God's people.
@@darrellclark2248 I was raised Baptist but married into a church of Christ family so I’m very familiar with their teachings. The church I attended was much closer to Deaver.. I was actually taken aback when I realized just a couple months ago that there are churches of Christ who deny the literal indwelling of the spirit. Just curious.. how would you describe your current theological position after leaving CoC if not Baptist?
@@Seekingchristdaily I have not left churches of Christ and have no reason to leave. There is much to commend in churches of Christ. But we have extremes that needed to be avoided. I'm sorry to say this. There are many, many of balanced and well informed churches. Our basic beliefs are orthodox and biblical. Sometimes I hear very dangerous distortions but that doesn't mean that every extreme is mainstream. Sounds like you go to a decent church with a future. If you want to hear more positive things about our fellowship, I would be glad to share. Blessings!
It is sad that this sect's creed does not allow them to hear God's word!
These Church of Christ fellows win the debates very easily. Why? Because they use the scriptures correctly!!! Good job, brother Moffitt
You know both brothers are Church of Christ right?
Moffitt says in his opening speech: “The inner man is capable of obedience effecting sanctification without a direct operation of the Spirit”
I would affirm this statement, but this statement doesn’t disprove a literal indwelling. I’d argue it’s not that people can’t obey without a direct operation of the Spirit (that’s reformed theology), but rather that belief in Jesus (our response to the Gospel) seals us with the Spirit as a guarantee of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22). This is a guarantee that was not present prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus.
In John 16:7 Jesus tells his disciples that if he does not go away the comforter could not come to them. Why would that be? We saw the Spirit come down and help people like David and all other authors of the Old Testament. We saw the Spirit empower prophets like Elijah to work miracles. So Jesus must’ve been referencing something else. Something the Spirit would do that the Spirit could not do under the law.. and that is that the Spirit couldn’t guarantee our salvation. The Spirit couldn’t bear witness with our Spirit that we were children of God (Romans 8:16).. because we all fall short (Romans 3:23) and the sacrifices made year after couldn’t justify us (Hebrews 10:1-3). We needed the ultimate sacrifice so we could be given the ultimate guarantee of our salvation.
Now this guarantee is not just a seal, it is also a helper. I’d affirm that the Spirit works mostly through the Bible since that is God’s inspired Word in black and white. That doesn’t mean he cannot help in other ways just like he helped the Old Testament saints.
@@Seekingchristdaily Don’t know your definitions but man cannot sanctify himself as this sect in the Church of Christ implies. The Spirit is required. Ezekiel 36:27 and Rom 8:1-4 point to this. We are dead in trespasses. This is the reason the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost-not just to give sign gifts and inspire scripture (this teaching is part of biblical deism).This is the reason all Christians are baptized in the Spirit (Jn 1:33; Jn 3:5-8; 1 Cor 12:13). Man’s heart is desperately wicked and requires the work of God. This is why we are born from above of water (purification-blood) and Spirit. This is part of Campbell’s misunderstanding on steroids and over-reaction to Calvinist teaching. They go on and on about the Word, not comprehending that this does not contradict the indwelling of the Spirit. Two things can be true at the same time. The Spirit and the word can be both indwelling literally the Christian.
@@darrellclark2248 agreed.. I’m not CoC. I’m Baptist non-reformed.
@@Seekingchristdaily I've been a preacher in churches of Christ over 40 years. Moffitt represents a very small, sectarian view in churches of Christ. I consider it heretical and very damaging to the christian faith. Deaver is much closer though he has some more work to do. Churches of Christ have suffered under early teaching of Alexander Campbell concerning the Holy Spirit. Our Colleges and Seminary do not teach Moffit's nonsense. It comes more from Baconian philosophy and not solid biblical exegesis and doctrine. They are small but very vocal and just wrong headed. Please do not believe this unorthodox teaching is characteristic of all the churches of Christ. It is an extreme group and an embarrassment to faithful churches of Christ. Every religious tradition have their extremist groups--these represent such a group. People really get the wrong view through them of our orthodoxy. I disagree with Baptist on some things, but not on the basic idea of the indwelling of the Spirit of God, which is essential to the salvation of God's people.
@@darrellclark2248 I was raised Baptist but married into a church of Christ family so I’m very familiar with their teachings. The church I attended was much closer to Deaver.. I was actually taken aback when I realized just a couple months ago that there are churches of Christ who deny the literal indwelling of the spirit.
Just curious.. how would you describe your current theological position after leaving CoC if not Baptist?
@@Seekingchristdaily I have not left churches of Christ and have no reason to leave. There is much to commend in churches of Christ. But we have extremes that needed to be avoided. I'm sorry to say this. There are many, many of balanced and well informed churches. Our basic beliefs are orthodox and biblical. Sometimes I hear very dangerous distortions but that doesn't mean that every extreme is mainstream. Sounds like you go to a decent church with a future. If you want to hear more positive things about our fellowship, I would be glad to share. Blessings!
Based on the questions, it seems most persons hold Moffitt's view. Do you know of anyone who's mind was changed to Deaver's view?
Deaverites never explain, only assert. Sadly, they twist the Scriptures to make their doctrine work.