EP 170 John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall on The Religion That Is Not a Religion
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
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Jim talks with John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall about Vervaeke's concept of "the religion that is not a religion." They discuss the need to create a home for ecologies of practices, Jordan and John's ongoing collaboration, the meaning crisis & our wisdom famine, meaning of life vs meaning in life, the category error of prioritizing propositions, limitations of the Axial Age religions, the two worlds mythology, a series of major conceptual involutions, the arising of social engineering, recursion & multi-part toolmaking, challenging the idea that the sacred is supernatural, the imaginal vs the imaginary, disambiguating notions of truth, defining sacred experience, the important & the dangerous, interpreting epiphanies, the ecological notion of rationality, living in the collapse of 19th-century epistemology, the Cartesian promise of certainty, defining religio & equivocation, relevance realization & fundamental connectedness, parallel interventions, the need for both meditative & contemplative practices, folk psychotechnologies, ecologies for communities, religion as the essence of culture, creating birth & death rituals, breastfeeding as religious practice, the question of scaling, creating developmental sequences & pedagogical continuity, embedding Metcalf's law, how practices that increase relationship propagate themselves, the combinatorial feedback loop afforded by shit being fucked, a final sales pitch for young men, and much more.
This ecology is the best place to stand in. Nice anchor guys. Thanks.
wow didn't see jordan on a podcast since a while, and with john!
feel this it about to be really good 🤘
Thank you Jordan, John, and Jim
Great work, and thank you for your service!
Thanks Jordan, John and Jim!
Enabling and disabling constraints.
Cynifin: In complex systems, employ multiple safe to fail experiments and look for a direction not a solution. Also it may be useful to design in a first to fail so the the important stuff doesn't break first.
Does it get more esoteric than these two?
If it did, the universe would implode.
This may sound offensive, but totally isn’t meant that way. This is the first episode of Jim’s podcast I’ve listened to and I couldn’t stop thinking “ermahgerd John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall are discussing a spiritual future for humanity with Lewis Black.” :D
listened twice so far because the is treatment of a number of wicked & entwined problems.
but
the choice of ways to express in words is almost a cipher the 3 have 10+ years of shared dialogue practice in. Whenever they use multiple polysyllabic words in a phrase that is a label i need to pull it apart to see if i can get meaning by which time ive missed the next 150 words. no chance when the reference is simply the name of a historic culture or individual
ive no problem saying the deficience is mine - so anyone know a treatment crafted 'for the person on the Clapham omnibus' (less esoteric deep end, more accessible progression)
Is this your way of saying you don't know what they are talking about? I listened to this and other of their discussions and always come away wondering what their point is?
The discussion draws many fine lines with a certainty that is disavowed by the commentators as inept by contemporary standards. The general critique about the failings of absolutism in the realms described tends toward absolutes.
Wouldn't it be fair to allow mysticism, poetry, philosophy and metaphysics to gravitate toward extremes knowing that each realm is unveiling their truths within an epoch while acknowledging that there is progress yet to be made and the hypothetical input by the aforementioned dispositions, however relative, are key to the process of development we find ourselves in? Why not allow space for speculation in the given realms when the courage to assert possibility, however possibly wrong, has revealed the socio-historical context which unveils the potential of future models?
In searching for a religion without a religion, we have to accept the temperament of the human condition and allow for the exuberant speculative theses that challenge the status-quo however flawed.
Hi Jim, John, and Jordan.
Imaginal aspirational 1:31:30
The passion for excellence appears to be rare.
Philosophy is a cul-de-sac on a one way street.
Meditation contemplation 1:25:00
This "prove it" narrative or challenge is ignorant. "Word salad" is another one.
Levels of description demand curiosity, intuition, and imagination.
The goal is not some distant proof in the absolute sense, it is a greater and greater understanding of our world.
You can't be lazy and you must avoid getting stuck in a particular paradigm.
Does the human psyche contain a spiritual component?
It is not the job of the intellect, to tame the passions of the heart, that is the job of the spirit.
High dimensional tools 1:22:30
Fantastic chat. Also Jim your logo makes me crave Wendy’s 😉
I'm imaging Jim's Religo Drive-thru 😁
Opponent processing 1:20:00
Equivocation 1:14:30
Look up; Chris Lucas Holarchic Meta-Ethics
Religio 44:00
Pseudo reli%ion 1:11:00
The ending kinda ruined it. You should have stopped after John's words indeed. Making the religion that is not a religion for men only, women's only role being "bait" (first as girlfriends - at least - but then simply as something to have sex with). Ugh.
can i suggest removing "kinda"?
i didnt find the sprinkly of "fuck" improved the messages either - especially because so much (60%?) used vocab that could be hughley simplified
Won’t this simply end up to be a law of attraction scheme?
41:41 "What do radically non-super natural people mean when they say 'the sacred?"
Indeed.... what can they possibly mean? 😂
2.5 words: thelema, cult, ure
This is a building on, not a refuting, b t w