When you see Grisha involved in a episode, you know for a fact that it's gonna be a great episode. His voice actor absolutely kills it whenever he gets the chance.
Never forget Yimir's stance on this to Historia: "You want to get yourself killed and do a favor to all those who wished you hadn't been born in the first place!?" One of the few things i agree with Eren on in this season is his angry at people with Zeke's philosophy. Never accept condemnation from those who judge you for things you didn't do or cannot change.
Actually, «we are special» part is from his mother, Eren never said this part. From Eren's standpoint, as I see it, he's more like: «It's best if we never been born in this world, but because we are born to this world, we fight»
Discussion Timestamps: (FIXED) 17:00 initial thoughts 18:53 Social dance club 19:17 Zeke’s father 20:09 Filling in the blanks 21:29 the euthanization plan 23:58 Eren going along with it? 27:06 Historia’s baby 30:50 Eren and Historia’s talk? 31:48 Isayama appreciation 33:23 The original Ymir 36:01 Eren’s real plan? 37:30 Zeke is emotional, Eren isn’t 39:36 Founding titan’s powers 40:15 Titan anatomy 42:18 The best plan? 43:03 What comes after this plan? 44:07 Life in the walls 45:34 Grisha’s upbringing of Eren 47:35 Timey-Wimey stuff? 48:19 Mr. Ksaver 53:02 “Report them” 55:47 Marley public security’s leads 56:39 Sympathising for Zeke 59:17 The suffering of being born 1:01:23 The future of Eldians 1:01:40 “The key to the lock” 1:03:50 Zeke’s sole connection 1:05:22 Eren and Zeke’s talk 1:07:27 Beast titan’s actions 1:08:35 Zeke blowing up 1:09:40 Levi’s failed plan 1:11:27 Music was great 1:11:46 Midroll: Titan research This one was a packed discussion!
Yea eren would've been able to become what grisha wanted in Marley take all his ways to become a warrior and zeke would've loved to have a loving father like grisha was to eren and a love like eren mom but then again eren will power and his persistent was what brought about everything how he I believe manipulated all the events through memories from kruger to his father to himself I think eren was the one manipulated kruger to choose grisha and grisha to kill everyone in fritz family just let historia father live to then giving eren the attack titan and founding titan was all future eren doing with memories
I think Grisha's biggest mistake is his failure at being a parent. Yes, the situation was dire. But he treated Zeke as more of a means to an end rather than an actual child. When he was born, he didn't say, "Thank Ymir for blessing me with this son", all he could think about was how his royal blood would help him fulfill his goal. Zeke didn't even seem to want to be a Titan. But he wanted his father to actually love him and spend time with him so much that he was willing to throw his life away. And even after he was trying his best, all he received was Grisha yelling and being disappointed at him. So when Tom actually seemed to care for him, it's no wonder that he bonded more with him than his parents. Udo's comment about Eldians being treated worse around the world also showcases why Zeke develops his mindset. Zeke is a hurting man who's tired of it all. A brilliant Monke.
I will never not cry over Zeke’s backstory 🦧 even as a grown man, he’s still so traumatized by Grisha that when he found out he’s still out there, he had the same exact reaction and expression as he had when he was hiding behind the door as a kid Ksaver’s line at 13:17 still remains imo one of the most heartbreaking lines in this show
@@jura9484 agreed I think it’s because it’s such a relatable, real world problem that it hurts that much more. Allowing capacity for empathy and relatability is so effective when it comes to capturing an audience.
This episode really makes you empathize with Zeke even if you hated him before... He suffered so much, he was always alone, he never had a childhood...
Thats the thing - Grisha never saw Zeke as his son. He saw Zeke as a tool to achieve HIS goals (liberate Eldia). Grisha was OK with putting Zeke in danger and even sacrifice him "for the sake of the course"...Grisha eventually understand his mistake, but it was to late
Grisha did love Zeke but was just desperate. Zeke is the last descendant of loyal blood on Marley. There are no characters to blame in this story. Everyone's situation is understandable.
@@Алексей545-т6б Exactly. He said it himself in 3x30: "not as the heir of royal blood, or as Eldia's hope, but as my son... Did I ever seen him that way?" From the day Zeke was born, even before that when they chose a name for their son, Grisha and Dina saw Zeke as a mean to an end: "Zeke", or with German spelling "Sieg" = "Victory" in German.
You can also see him hugging Zeke when he turns his parents in to the cops. They repeat it in this episode but in the original you can see Ksaver and Zeke's grandparents as well.
@@stdevote03 first of all, not the same character at all, Ksaver was already shown, not the same hair, face structure, etc. second, Warriors doesn't have the rank of being interrogators, Marley would never put them into a position when they can overwatch uprisings, at all, we had Ksaver VA already for that moment, since yeah, the "Grisha, be careful" line was performed by the same VA Ksaver had in season 4, the agent in Grisha's interrogation doesn't have the same VA, at all, you have to be, first, blind, second, deaf, third, kind of clueless to think that Ksaver was that guy.
'Paradise' is the word people in Marley use when they talk about sending people over the sea to be turned into Titans. Paradis is the geolical location on which the 3 walls are.
I love how when we first hear about Zeke's plan, it sounds so cruel but when you actually think about it, it probably really was the best possible solution... But it still feels so wrong.
AoT has a great way of replaying the same series of events from a new person's perspective with focus on different things to give you a new understanding of it. Grisha's life before going to the walls is shown from Grisha's perspective at the end of season 3. Now we see those events from Zeke's perspective and all of a sudden its very different. Similarly the first 3 episodes of season 1 from Eren's perspective, then S4E3 gives a very different perspective of it. Even the events of Ymir eating Marcel; they show it 3 times during season 2 and each time there is more context. (First time we only see Reiner and Marcel, 2nd time you can see Bertholdt, 3rd time you also see Annie. Then you see it in season 4 completely for full context and the rest of Reiner's past give a very different picture.
Isayama is definitely insane when it comes to withholding information and releasing it perfectly in scenes like this. My goat mangaka in storytelling and most specially foreshadowing
@@albaviris hmm well i can’t say the episode names bc that would be giga-spoilers but my top 5 for the next part is probably something like this: - S4E20 - S4E27 - S4E28 - S4E21 - S4E25
I can't describe how creative it is!!! I didn't expect your past to be so sad!! And his real plan is very shocking!! His dialogue with Mr. Tom revealed to us a lot of solid information and I do not deny Zeke's point of view because living with people who really hate you is painful, so we see that he wants to get rid of that and protect his people from it. This pain that Mr. Tom and others brought, and of course we do not forget that Grisha felt guilt for what he did to his son Zeke in the third season, and I do not blame him for his stress, because his son does not want this freedom in the first place and to live his life normally. Conflicting points of view!! Really, Isayama is a great writer
@@JeusAlprime108 Did you really see Season 4?? Zeke really apologized to me and knew that he was wrong, and Zeke forgave him to the point of working on his words to stop Irene. And his son, Eren planned everything, and no one wants this whole killing for the sake of the power of the attacking giant and Yumir, if you read the last chapter of the manga. And there is nothing funny about it because it is at the height of realism
@@haroko_chanotaku7234 Hey, mind the spoiler...I am intentionally being ambiguous. They still don't know how is that possible since they don't have that puzzle piece (Attak Titan Power) unveiled yet
Although it was cut in the anime, at the end of the scene where Grisha yells at Zeke, in the manga version, Grisha mutters, "Why not? I just wanted to see the airship...".
You guys were wondering who Zeke referenced when he called “father” so I hope this explanation answers your question:) So, if you watch AOT in Japanese, the way Zeke's "father" is referred to differs between Grisha and Ksavar. When referring to Grisha, Zeke said "chichioya," which is a more formal way of saying "father" in the general sense, and when he was referring to Ksavar, Zeke called him "tosan," which is a more respectful and intimate way to refer to the person. So yes, he was clearly thinking Ksaver as his “real” father.
Omg, just watch the rest already ahaha, listenning to you making theories, some close, some far, makes me wanna see your reactions to those answers/happenings!! Can't really wait for more ep reactions!
Something interesting, in the shot at the end of season three where you see Zeke ratting out his parents, you can see mr ksaver kneeling down besides him with his hand on Zekes shoulder. And when Grisha first runs out of the wall with his sister, they also bump into him I think.
Ksaver is right when he says that Zeke's parents never loved him, grisha himself pretty much confessed it when he said that maybe he never actually cared about Zeke himself but only his royal blood and the potential he meant for HIS cause. There are a lot of greys but even if grisha's fight against Marley was justified, at that time he was just a radical nationalist who used to lie as much as Marley on favor of a certain perspective of the conflict, too blinded for his own good.
Yeah totally agree. it was clearly shown when Grice asked Grisha how he even knew all those parts of ‘history’ he was indoctrinating in the other patriots. Grice points out they were still in the process of deciphering whatever records they had. Grisha said he believes it simply because he believes in Ymir which is quite the blind statement.
what? he's their first child of course they loved him, just not for the right reasons. Mr Ksaver was probably just saying that so Zeke doesn't harbor any guilt or psychological trauma for doing that to his own parents.
Suffering is part of life, yes, but some suffer more intensely and more often. Some of us suffer awfully on a daily basis. When you live in a world that has the power to ease a person's passing when people are too sick or old but it isn't offered as an option, you're forced to either do something to yourself that's brutal and can potentially fail and make things worse or wait until the end comes while continuing to suffer horribly. Also factor in the fact that none of us ask to be born and some of those babies will be born with horrible illnesses and diseases and I have to wonder at the indifference and cruelty of the whole thing. I don't have any answers either but I tell you that line about 'salvation is being never born' is a line that speaks strongly to me.
@@jimmiejam508 I wasn't promoting the idea for others. I'm not sure if it works that way for humans really. Our survival instinct is too strong and so are our emotional ties. I'm just saying that for those few of us that might want to be done, it would be more humane to give us a painless way out. I've already discussed this with my family so if the day comes, they understand my reasoning. But doing something yourself always runs the risk of failure and causing yourself even worse suffering. I don't know if any of that makes sense. I feel like a hamster on a wheel that I have no choice to keep pushing forward on despite the fact I'm broken in so many ways and most of those ways have no cure at all. One of the many conditions I have is called trigeminal neuralgia. Feel free to look up a trigeminal neuralgia attack on YT but be warned that it's not easy to watch. It's touted as the "Suicide Disease" because it causes, according to many sources, the worst pain known to mankind. To be clear, I don't want to die but I am so weary of suffering and some of it has no palliative that really helps. Sometimes it gets so severe and constant that I have to take shots of rum or everclear to try to dull it a little. We're in an opioid crisis so doctor's don't dole out anything for pain anymore. I know you may not understand or agree with my position and that's okay. There are 8 billion different perspectives in the world and that's pretty awesome in my book. It's one of the things that really makes life interesting. But this perspective is mine. Thank you so much for being kind and understanding with your answer. 🤗💕
So now we know what these dainasours and all these animals in Season 2 OP refered to .. They represnt all Beast Titan forms because he can choose what animal he wanna be in a form of It's called "The Beast Titan" not "The Monkey Titan" .. for example Mr.Ksaver was the beast titan but we never knew how his titan looked like .. well in this episode when Mr.Ksaver was talking to Zeke about his family and his miserable life there was a refrence in the background of how Mr.Ksaver's titan was .. and it was a goat ! You can go back and check it out now and also that's why Mr.Ksaver told Zeke that his titan wasn't so useful in war cause obviously a goat would do nothing in a war.
"Parents who want you to follow a certain career path" is very different from parents who force their child into being a soldier for their revolution. They were terrible parents. Ksaver was saying what he believed, he wasn't being titan mind-controlled. This was a very frustrating part of the discussion to listen to.
It's so great seeing you guys theorize in previous episodes and saying "wow I wish we had an explanation or flashback for X thing but we'll probably never get that" and then you actually get that
I love how ever since you guys started season 4, Ben has been saying "this is definitely one of my favourite episodes" and "this is one of the best characters ever" in almost every episode lol but I 100% get it, Isayama is a genius
In 3x18 Midnight Sun, Zeke tells Eren “ you look nothing like your father “ drop the y from your and it would’ve been a 🤯 reveal but the writer meticulously paces out the plot, so we finally get it in 4x15.
I don't think it's to crazy to say grisha didn't love Zeke. I don't think is necessarily true but it sure does look like that from an outsider view. He doesn't play with you, he doesn't believe in you, he doesn't care what you want or have to say
This episode showed such an interesting contrast on how Eren and Zeke’s upbringing and temperament can lead them to have different worldviews Eren’s view is “I have meaning because I was born into this world” But then we have Zeke where he thinks, “I shouldn’t have been born into this world, so I will save our people from suffering by ‘euthanizing’ them” I understand why Zeke came to this conclusion (and I feel for him bc he’s in such a shitty situation), but his decision is a bit too much…
I think Carla had a large impact on Eren too. Carla loved Eren unconditionally, compared to Dina with Zeke, who seemed to share a lot of Grisha's early sentiments.
@@rodrigobenavidez395 it's not, it's naive. SPOILERS His plan hinges on the future generations that inherit his and the founding Titan following through on his philosophies. And even if he did the same as the King of the walls and forced descendants to follow through, what stops someone usurping that vow in the same way he and Eren did. When people are given a death sentence, you can never be sure how far they will go to survive and once someone else is in control of the founder, they can simply reverse this plan entirely and we are back to square one. It also hinges on the rest of the world accepting that you can't reproduce anymore and letting you die out. It's more likely that the paranoia and fear which has already permeated all levels of the culture that created so much prejudice, would drive people to still violently put an end to the Eldian race with their own hands anyways. DON'T CONTINUE IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE MANGA. And finally, th at parasite has a will of its own. It existed before titans. It can likely exist afterwards. If it can no longer spread itself through the descendants of Ymir, who is to say it can't detach and reattach to someone else entirely and start a new line, call them Subjects of Earl.
@@omarholder9036 I totally agree with that. And even if it weren't naive, it still isn't "pacifist", not for the Eldians. Zeke wants to impose his own feeling (wishing never to have been born) on an entire race, he plans of robbing every Eldian of their choice. It's ethnic genocide in the form of forced sterilization, and irl classified as a Crime against Humanity by the International Criminal Court. Obviously, there isn't any "good" solution to this Titan issue; but Zeke's plan is definively not one.
zeke didn't really want to be a part of this war. he got to teen years while being just a help for the army. that's why they showed Reiner's batch because titans are mostly given to an early age thus, gabi and falco competition to make it clear that he never wanted to be a candidate until ksaver said his story.
56:40 I mean you can sympathize, emphasize, connect with, relate, understand, and so on, but you don't have to forgive. It's like Brienne and Stannis. He toyed with Miche, Erwin and many others. The Norf remembers.
It's like Levi said: "You don't have a shred of guilt in you and it shows." Zeke is so convinced that his path is righteous he'll justify anything. He might feel bad for those he kills, like the scout recruits at the battle of Shiganshina, but he doesn't seem remorseful after the fact. No regrets might be Levi's motto, but Zeke embodies it as well.
These guys bring up so much for me to reexamine. For example, the two keys that Anna brings up: Zeke and Historia. Is it just really coincidental that both of those people had horribly tragic and sad issues in their formative years with their parents? Family would easily be able to manipulate people like this, I think, just like Rod did to Historia.
As morally complicated as the story has been so far, this is definitely where it takes a big step up in how grey it is. Enjoy it, cause it's only gonna get worse from here.
Zeke s perspective makes so much sense. Not everyone is an Eren, not everyone is willing to keep killing for the off chance they may win and be left at peace...not to mention Eldia is in a position that to survive they probably have to become the monsters they are portrayed as, which...would you want such a nation to even survive? It is a difficult and bitter pill to swallow but realistically - if Eldians were not able to bear children - less people would die, less people would suffer. I don t think I d join Zeke s perspective if I was in his position, but not coz I dont think he is right, but rather coz my surival instinct and selfishness would overwrite logic.
I think a lot of people start to resonate with Zeke being pressured as a kid early in age. You can apply this concept with your own parents pressuring you to do well in school or many other similar situations. Zeke just wanted to enjoy his life at times and just felt trapped in the situation he was in. S3E5 “You’re not like your father, you’ve got to try to enjoy things”
spoilers.. if someone after listening that conversation really thinks that eren is with zeke's plan than that person not at all understands eren character. Filmbuff spotted in a second that eren is lying. Eren's character is literally "I am special because I was born into this world", "Fight fight if you don't fight you don't win", "Want my friends to be happy" And that girl(don't know her name) actually thinks that eren is with zeke's plan.
1. Zeke's only way of surviving was to turn in his parents cz they were all doomed to get shipped to paradise anyways. 2. Zeke's plan is the solution to end the cycle of violence caused by the existence of titans. So eldians will cease to exist in 100 years or so and for him it's the most peaceful way they can end their cursed history. 3. According to Isayama zeke is the most clever character in the show.
i think in this story, there is no distinction between bad guys and good guys or right and wrong. Everyone is right. But the real question is : What would you do for freedom ? What would you risk ? What would you sacrifice ??
AAAAA I DONT EVEN REMEMBER WHATS COMING BUT AAA GOOD MORNING oh hell I forgot the 4x14 discussion 14:09 aaaa it always feels weird hearing euthenization plan because the major catalyst is sterilization 30:45 (and versus Rumbling variations) Calling him Nii-San aah 41:33 that would have to be done post humously though, unless it wasnt conscious 49:55 I mean it could make sense even if it's a suicide, he'd have a "son" figure die twice in his life But also...yeah 54:00 I mean he saw when Grisha walked away during training Outside of that itd be more the changes he sees in Zeke's emotions, and maybe the "I have to become one" 1:08:15 well he also had a moment of anger for em towards the king
@AutoSave: All your questions will be answered in Part 2 of this Final Season. Keep up the exposition!!! I love your channel! P.S. Potential Spoilers in the Part 2 Opening - The song is in English.
Honestly Zeke's plan is fucked up but it is also true that there is no better plan at hand. If they are to protect the lives of Eldians, they have to keep fighting Marley and other nations but eventually the power of Titan will be nothing against advanced technology. However, killing enemies while Eldia still holds the advantage of Titan will result in tons of casualties. Armin and Mikasa (and some higher-ups including Hange) seem to think that if they take time and talk to people, they can solve "misunderstanding" and make peace but if it's that easy, our world would have been peaceful a long time ago. Eren knows this is not possible as he knows how deep-rooted the fear and hatred towards Eldians are through the memories of Grisha. That's why he asked Armin if he saw the memories of Bertolt when Armin said people will understand they are not monsters through talking. Euthanization plan is in fact a drastic measure but it is not harming nor making anyone suffer. Without killing lives of Eldians and non-Eldians, it can actually slove the conflict between Eldia and Marley. It is not the best plan where everyone will be happy since one race will be completely erased. However, it is the most realistic plan with minimum suffering of people.
Did they not think about Levi standing 10 cm away from an explosion that can killed the Armored Titan? Because their reaction didn't scream Levi gravely wounded/dead to me
nunca se olvden que estan en una guerra ,no se trata de quien la pasa peor si liberio o paradis ,se trata del mundo queriendo exterminar a los eldianos son uno de los mejores reaccionadores de aot como se puso contenta ella mientras veia y como disfrutaron este increible episodio uno de mis favoritos zeke es increible su personaje eren god jaeger dijo muchas cosas importantes
Maaan this is why I love watching reactions to AoT, I love to hear how reactors have different interpretations on some characters or situations in the show... *SPOILERS AHEAD* So after their discussions I started thinking about Tom Ksaver in a way I had never thought before. When you finish watching or reading the manga you know that a certain character has been pulling the strings of everything all along. But we actually never know to what extent he can control things, and it really makes you wonder who or what is a result of his mastermind manipulation plan. Hearing Anna and Ben made me think that Ksaver could totally be another puppet. All the evidence is there tbh. Of course we will never know if this is so or not, but knowing that Eren is manipulating anyone in his way, and knowing all the info Ksaver had, and how he first got in contact with Zeke... It does seem like everything was planned from the beginning!!! Again, it can be like this, or not, but I think it's such a cool interpretation and it's worth to acknowledge. Man what a great show
It's not shown in the anime but when ksaver says that his beast titan is not useful in war , he also mentions in manga that his beast titan is a whale , so not all beast titans are monke
ua-cam.com/video/OjOYcZFBbJE/v-deo.html "This is like Zuko alone, it's like Zeke Alone!" Ah you bastards got me. Now I have to watch your ATLA reactions too gdi
I don't know Japanese but they've already seen your name before starting this channel. And for reference they've said it's one of their favorite movies of all time whenever they mention it!
[For People Who've Seen All Of Part 2] "When Zeke and Eren haven't touched..." Wait. I'm just now thinking... why didn't they go ahead and touch when they first spoke and agreed on this plan? What were they waiting for? Planets to align? (sarcasm)
They were waiting for all the world to gather their forces by provoking the war so they can use little amount of colosal titans to destroy the world's military
@@mrfool3545 I don't recall them talking about that. Maybe it's translation issues. There are so many different versions of subs and not being a Japanese speaker, I don't know which are more correct but I've seen some that I knew were badly done. Most just make you more confused but some can be outright wrong because it's a fan just trying to add flavor or make it more Americanized. As an autistic person though, I can easily become confused with any kind of communication so it's frustrating.
The actual explanation would be a spoiler for the end of the show, but I will say they each had different reasons for needing to put off having contact.
ARRRGH, this discussion was so frustrating, because it seems like they never quite realize that Zeke's "euthanization" plan is actually the slow GENOCIDE OF THE ENTIRE ELDIAN RACE. Like, at the 1-hour mark, I thought for a moment that Anna was going to realize it -- she came so close, just one step away: "He's thinking, if I do this and free the world, I'll free all Eldians from suffering. That is not the case." And here I'm thinking YES, she GETS IT, but then: "Like we said, there's always going to be conflict, there's always going to be suffering in the world, there's always going to be war. You're just taking away the magical element." And I'm like NO, he's not just taking away the magical element, he's EXTERMINATING THE ENTIRE RACE. And it's so frustrating, because I've seen so many reactions, and every time I want the reactors to immediately denounce this self-pitying, extremist, megalomaniacal, "messed-up" plan of Zeke's, and I don't think I've ever seen it. It's megalomaniacal because Zeke is taking it upon himself to decide the fate of his entire race, rather than let Eldians decide for themselves whether they want to have kids of their own. And who among Eldians would ever agree to it? (Ksaver is the only Eldian in the story that actually agrees with it, I think.) I believe the right to reproduce is an inalienable human right (the right of all living organisms in fact). It's a shit plan. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Jaegerist either. Neither the extinction of all Eldians nor the extinction of all non-Eldians is a morally defensible plan. Genocide is genocide. Thanks for listening, try our fish, and don't forget to tip your waitress! 😵💫🤯🤪
You're totally right, neither of those option is morally correct. But that's the beauty of this show; everythig that is being presented from the very beginning is morally debatable. Even if they don't realize how wrong it is to eliminate a whole race yet (or killing everyone else except for that race, but they haven't gotten there), I think it's natural to discuss whether it's a valid ideology. We're dealing with two extremes here and none of them is right. It's also very hard to think of other possible solutions. And as Ben says repetedly, we are not there and we have no idea what it's like to live the way they live in the show... so the only thing left to do as an audience is to discuss and debate... Yes, it's a shitty plan and there's no way any Eldian would be on board, but after seeing Zeke's traumatic past and all he had to go through, it's not so crazy to have some understanding of his plan. And of course it's self-pitying, extremist, etc. because Zeke was very emotional about everything, just like the guys said. He obviously didn't think anything through. He was just being selfish. I don't agree with his plan and I also think it's terrible, but I do understand why he wants this and why viewers/reactors might sympathize with him.
Let's see, so what's the plan? Do you realize that you say a lot of nonsense and in the end you don't contribute anything? You may not be a Jeaguerista nor do you support Zeke's plan, but it seems you have the same thinking as the MP's faction. Or even as goofy as Connie. Zeke's plan is the same as Eren's, but carried out peacefully and in reverse. I could say that it is the same plan as Marley and Eren combined.
@@julietaespinoza767 And I "sympathize" with him, in the sense that I understand where he's coming from and understand how he reached the conclusions he did. I just can't agree with it.
@@rodrigobenavidez395 SPOILERS FOR S4 PART 2 OF COURSE: My chief point in my post was that I was frustrated that Ben and Anna, like many reactors, didn't seem to grasp the full implications of Zeke's plan. What would I propose? I don't know. It feels like the show wants me to believe that those are the only two "realistic" options, but I haven't been convinced that's actually the case. It all seems to depend on exactly what the powers of the Founding Titan are -- how absolute and precise its control is of the other Titans and Eldians -- which it seems has been kept intentionally vague. I'm not convinced that Eren can't, as Gabi or Armin suggested, strategically take out the military bases of the rest of the world while leaving the population mostly intact. We see Eren wipe out the world's navy and cannons in an instant. He could have stopped there, buying Eldia time to build a conventional defense. I think Eldia should do that, just use the Titans as needed until it can take its place among the rest of the nations of the world with a VERY well-developed defense, rather like its analogue Israel. It will be terrible and probably require a lot of very bloody wars in the process, but it won't require genocide. It's just like real life: there's no permanent solution to war, unfortunately. But a race and a nation has a right to defend itself. (And sorry, no, forced sterilization of an entire race is not "peaceful.")
@@jlilley73 Let's see, you are saying that a solution would be to eliminate only the military bases and the Marleyan and world soldiers who are ready for war, meanwhile those from the island of Paradise can improve their weapons so that they can defend themselves longer and longer. And okay, that's still Zeke's plan, since Zeke's plan was not only sterilization, it was also what you mentioned, but that was already the work of the Azumabito. Now, are you aware that to do that, yes or yes, a royal blood titan and a founding titan were needed, right? I say this because you don't seem to understand that the only thing that can make Marley have peace with Paradise is the news that Paradise has the power to make the rumble if they ruin their peace. Obviously it would be necessary to go back to the beginnings where children devour their parents to maintain that power. But let's imagine that they stop doing that and the whereabouts of the founder or the titan of royal blood are unknown, and they only have the technology of the Azumabito to protect themselves, obviously wars, death and destruction will come. What I'm trying to say is that in a world where 2 entities hate each other, only one survives. And you don't have to be so selfish as to drag your children into a war of ancestors, since whether you want it or not, it's the worst thing you can do. You say that Zeke's plan is bad just because the Eldians will no longer have the freedom to have children, but it seems worse to me that they use their children as cannon fodder, tell me. You prefer that a person be born to be tortured or you prefer that person not be born.
Well You have two views, Grisha's and Zeke's : for one is to fight against opposition and for the other it is to make it so that Eldians don't exist. One is to struggle and create more cycles of war, hatred ,ect and the other is to end a certain cyle (the one caused by titans and human-titan interactions) but the cost is the desire to live. So both solutions are horrible anyways, factually Zeke's is better because when the titans will be eradicated of this world a very important layer of conflict will be removed from the show and that's racial discrimination againt eldians but morally it's very "wrong" because you're robbing people of their choices so that you can make a choice for them that will actually change something. While for Grisha's it's the other way around, the concept of struggling to live is a basic one that all creatures share and it makes us alive but factually this humane struggle is in history and in Aot source of conflict as Grisha does not want eldians to only survive but to "live" which is again admirable but as a concept. Because factually it will only breed violence. So who's to say that one is better than an other, the two ideologies have a major flaw each
I disagree i think Eren's way is better judging from what we observe in nature. If 2 species can't coexist then one species eradicates the other and that's the end of that.
@@BhBc8f8 Zeke's plan is the same as Eren's, only instead of devastating the rest of the world, the Eldians devastate in a peaceful way, whatever the plan of all the groups created in Shingeki, the best plan is the one from Zeke.
@@BhBc8f8 SPOILER ( for those that finished the anime not the manga) And his way of doing things is more linked to the fact that he's exactly the same as someone who knows that he's doomed to die but his innate nature for fighting ( his "because I was born in this world" I have a right to live and fight for it) makes him want to change something before kicking the bucket because he cannot let himself die and leave those he care about to a world that will mercilessly kill them. People might find this cliche ( many stories does that as well) but Aot just does it 100 times better
@@abdelbouzazia4955 They've said they're not reading comments until they're caught up. But i mean it's not really that much of a spoiler if Ben's already thought it since 4x6. "So what's Eren solution, is he just going to kill everyone?" And I'm not a manga reader so even i don't know the full details
I did my part warning them in patreon, but the mods or whoever usually passes info to them regarding spoilers and stuff didn't do it this time when it was most needed, so instead ben just played an audio his close friend sent during the usual pre-episode discussion, I asumme that friend reads the comments on patreon and yet decided on his own to ignore them and told them to go ahead and watch the intro... so they did. Personally and if we want to be purists and go with the going blind type of reactions I rather have them not watch it, that being said, watching it also has its upsides, it gets you hyped up for the episodes and they have more context and something more to discuss, etc. So it's done, whatever and it is what it is.
@@EgoJinpachi_ What did they feel about it? It's the OP that has the second most amount of spoilers lol so I assume Ben had to be upset right? And you're right that friend of theirs has even previously forced them to watch the openings when they obviously contain so many spoilers.
@@arwenlostlorn6569 hard to say, on the surface they were taken aback by the song and visuals and that took most of their focus, afterwards they didn't comment much on what they felt about the spoilers shown other than pointing at them like "oh we'll see the female titan again" and "we can see the rumbling in eren's eyes" , IF it was the case they disliked having watched it deep down for spoilery reasons, they wouldn't say it on camera cuz that would mean shtting on his friend's advice, so we'll have to wait and see if they expand on it next episodes.
When you see Grisha involved in a episode, you know for a fact that it's gonna be a great episode. His voice actor absolutely kills it whenever he gets the chance.
facts, I felt so uneasy when he was yelling about Zeke, man, what a great talent.
Absolutely. His performance in Part 2 takes the cake.
That scream was VISCERAL
Zeke is king
@@اميرمادرا literally, with his royal blood:)
ben when zeke blows up the carriage with levi in it: 😐
ben when the horse is on fire: 🤬
Eren: "we are special because we are born to this world"
Zeke: i wish i never born
ignorance is bliss. perhaps Karl Fritz had the right idea after all
All these different ideologies and standpoints in conflict with each other under the same premises are brilliant way of writing a story.
Never forget Yimir's stance on this to Historia: "You want to get yourself killed and do a favor to all those who wished you hadn't been born in the first place!?"
One of the few things i agree with Eren on in this season is his angry at people with Zeke's philosophy. Never accept condemnation from those who judge you for things you didn't do or cannot change.
@@smallpiper2 except that goes both ways, from the other side they have strong reason to hate u
Actually, «we are special» part is from his mother, Eren never said this part.
From Eren's standpoint, as I see it, he's more like:
«It's best if we never been born in this world, but because we are born to this world, we fight»
16:53 Damn it hurts to see Jean on fire everytime I rewatch this scene
😂😂😂
Killed me
lmfaoooo stoppp
Zeke got a problem with all Jeans. The first time he showed up he threw a Jean at a guy.
Discussion Timestamps: (FIXED)
17:00 initial thoughts
18:53 Social dance club
19:17 Zeke’s father
20:09 Filling in the blanks
21:29 the euthanization plan
23:58 Eren going along with it?
27:06 Historia’s baby
30:50 Eren and Historia’s talk?
31:48 Isayama appreciation
33:23 The original Ymir
36:01 Eren’s real plan?
37:30 Zeke is emotional, Eren isn’t
39:36 Founding titan’s powers
40:15 Titan anatomy
42:18 The best plan?
43:03 What comes after this plan?
44:07 Life in the walls
45:34 Grisha’s upbringing of Eren
47:35 Timey-Wimey stuff?
48:19 Mr. Ksaver
53:02 “Report them”
55:47 Marley public security’s leads
56:39 Sympathising for Zeke
59:17 The suffering of being born
1:01:23 The future of Eldians
1:01:40 “The key to the lock”
1:03:50 Zeke’s sole connection
1:05:22 Eren and Zeke’s talk
1:07:27 Beast titan’s actions
1:08:35 Zeke blowing up
1:09:40 Levi’s failed plan
1:11:27 Music was great
1:11:46 Midroll: Titan research
This one was a packed discussion!
OMG you're fast, thank you!!!
Dude is doing god's works. 🙌
Bro how do you pull this off so fast
It would be great if you could fix it
needs some fixing
I saw someone saying once that "Eren is the son Grisha wanted in Marley and Zeke is the son he wanted in Paradis" and honestly that had me thinking.
I've seen that too and it's just...yep. 😩
If that's case, may be Zeke in Paradis would not survive until these day and Eren in Marley would definitely doomed Paradis for sure.
Yea eren would've been able to become what grisha wanted in Marley take all his ways to become a warrior and zeke would've loved to have a loving father like grisha was to eren and a love like eren mom but then again eren will power and his persistent was what brought about everything how he I believe manipulated all the events through memories from kruger to his father to himself I think eren was the one manipulated kruger to choose grisha and grisha to kill everyone in fritz family just let historia father live to then giving eren the attack titan and founding titan was all future eren doing with memories
I think Grisha's biggest mistake is his failure at being a parent. Yes, the situation was dire. But he treated Zeke as more of a means to an end rather than an actual child. When he was born, he didn't say, "Thank Ymir for blessing me with this son", all he could think about was how his royal blood would help him fulfill his goal. Zeke didn't even seem to want to be a Titan. But he wanted his father to actually love him and spend time with him so much that he was willing to throw his life away. And even after he was trying his best, all he received was Grisha yelling and being disappointed at him.
So when Tom actually seemed to care for him, it's no wonder that he bonded more with him than his parents. Udo's comment about Eldians being treated worse around the world also showcases why Zeke develops his mindset. Zeke is a hurting man who's tired of it all. A brilliant Monke.
"A Briliant MONKE"😂
Hw good man
Reject humanity, Return to monke.
Yesh, Grisha has ABSOLUTELY BEEN A SHIT FATHER TO ZEKE. Theres not excuses
I will never not cry over Zeke’s backstory 🦧 even as a grown man, he’s still so traumatized by Grisha that when he found out he’s still out there, he had the same exact reaction and expression as he had when he was hiding behind the door as a kid
Ksaver’s line at 13:17 still remains imo one of the most heartbreaking lines in this show
Yes your right he goat and Rainer are my favourite
right?? for some reason it hits so hard even compared to other characters' backstories, a kid growing up this alone, disliked and scared 🥺
@@jura9484 agreed I think it’s because it’s such a relatable, real world problem that it hurts that much more. Allowing capacity for empathy and relatability is so effective when it comes to capturing an audience.
This episode really makes you empathize with Zeke even if you hated him before... He suffered so much, he was always alone, he never had a childhood...
Thats the thing - Grisha never saw Zeke as his son. He saw Zeke as a tool to achieve HIS goals (liberate Eldia). Grisha was OK with putting Zeke in danger and even sacrifice him "for the sake of the course"...Grisha eventually understand his mistake, but it was to late
Poor zeke and Annie are my favourite EREN is emo why tho
Its not that he completely deny his love for him but yaa its always been like his favourite instrument
Grisha did love Zeke but was just desperate. Zeke is the last descendant of loyal blood on Marley. There are no characters to blame in this story. Everyone's situation is understandable.
@You alright boi ? Nope. His son would die in 13 years barely made it to his 20. That is if he would not be killed earlier
@@Алексей545-т6б Exactly. He said it himself in 3x30: "not as the heir of royal blood, or as Eldia's hope, but as my son... Did I ever seen him that way?"
From the day Zeke was born, even before that when they chose a name for their son, Grisha and Dina saw Zeke as a mean to an end: "Zeke", or with German spelling "Sieg" = "Victory" in German.
Dr Ksaver... you've seen him before. he was the guy Grisha bumped into when he took Fey outside the walls to see the airship.
Holy shit never noticed
You can also see him hugging Zeke when he turns his parents in to the cops. They repeat it in this episode but in the original you can see Ksaver and Zeke's grandparents as well.
Ksaver, not wearing his trademark glasses, was also the guy torturing Grisha for info on Dina.
@@stdevote03 nope
@@stdevote03 first of all, not the same character at all, Ksaver was already shown, not the same hair, face structure, etc. second, Warriors doesn't have the rank of being interrogators, Marley would never put them into a position when they can overwatch uprisings, at all, we had Ksaver VA already for that moment, since yeah, the "Grisha, be careful" line was performed by the same VA Ksaver had in season 4, the agent in Grisha's interrogation doesn't have the same VA, at all, you have to be, first, blind, second, deaf, third, kind of clueless to think that Ksaver was that guy.
When Ben saying Levi and Zeke having a date I suddenly remembered that Levi is about 10 years older than Zeke.
Daddy Levi
Sus he ruined zeke badass
'Paradise' is the word people in Marley use when they talk about sending people over the sea to be turned into Titans. Paradis is the geolical location on which the 3 walls are.
I love how when we first hear about Zeke's plan, it sounds so cruel but when you actually think about it, it probably really was the best possible solution... But it still feels so wrong.
This episode is simply a masterpiece this is my favorite episode in S4 part 1
One of my favorite aot episodes, truly a masterpiece! Zeke is a great character.
AoT has a great way of replaying the same series of events from a new person's perspective with focus on different things to give you a new understanding of it.
Grisha's life before going to the walls is shown from Grisha's perspective at the end of season 3. Now we see those events from Zeke's perspective and all of a sudden its very different.
Similarly the first 3 episodes of season 1 from Eren's perspective, then S4E3 gives a very different perspective of it.
Even the events of Ymir eating Marcel; they show it 3 times during season 2 and each time there is more context. (First time we only see Reiner and Marcel, 2nd time you can see Bertholdt, 3rd time you also see Annie. Then you see it in season 4 completely for full context and the rest of Reiner's past give a very different picture.
Poor Annie she alone she needs Arimin too makes her happy 😊 l hope she will and Rainer is sad man my favourite
Isayama is definitely insane when it comes to withholding information and releasing it perfectly in scenes like this. My goat mangaka in storytelling and most specially foreshadowing
Definitely my fav episode from part 1 of season 4.
;D and part 2?
@@albaviris hmm well i can’t say the episode names bc that would be giga-spoilers but my top 5 for the next part is probably something like this:
- S4E20
- S4E27
- S4E28
- S4E21
- S4E25
Even mine with "Children of the Forest"
4:13 "Zeke, you're going to save everyone"
16:07 "Eren, we're gonna save everyone"
Damnnnnnn
I can't describe how creative it is!!! I didn't expect your past to be so sad!! And his real plan is very shocking!! His dialogue with Mr. Tom revealed to us a lot of solid information and I do not deny Zeke's point of view because living with people who really hate you is painful, so we see that he wants to get rid of that and protect his people from it. This pain that Mr. Tom and others brought, and of course we do not forget that Grisha felt guilt for what he did to his son Zeke in the third season, and I do not blame him for his stress, because his son does not want this freedom in the first place and to live his life normally. Conflicting points of view!! Really, Isayama is a great writer
Yes your right his dad is right
Sadly Grisha don't has the chance anymore to redemn himself with his sons...or is it really tho?😏🤭🤫
@@JeusAlprime108 Did you really see Season 4?? Zeke really apologized to me and knew that he was wrong, and Zeke forgave him to the point of working on his words to stop Irene. And his son, Eren planned everything, and no one wants this whole killing for the sake of the power of the attacking giant and Yumir, if you read the last chapter of the manga. And there is nothing funny about it because it is at the height of realism
@@haroko_chanotaku7234 Hey, mind the spoiler...I am intentionally being ambiguous. They still don't know how is that possible since they don't have that puzzle piece (Attak Titan Power) unveiled yet
Bad parenting does cause significant historical events.
bro this episode gave me so many flashbacks, Zeke’s parents are so similar to mine
The closer we get to 'that' episode, the more eager I become to see their reactions.
Although it was cut in the anime, at the end of the scene where Grisha yells at Zeke, in the manga version, Grisha mutters, "Why not? I just wanted to see the airship...".
You guys were wondering who Zeke referenced when he called “father” so I hope this explanation answers your question:)
So, if you watch AOT in Japanese, the way Zeke's "father" is referred to differs between Grisha and Ksavar. When referring to Grisha, Zeke said "chichioya," which is a more formal way of saying "father" in the general sense, and when he was referring to Ksavar, Zeke called him "tosan," which is a more respectful and intimate way to refer to the person.
So yes, he was clearly thinking Ksaver as his “real” father.
Man.., looking back at the series Mr.Ksaver and Sasha's father were the real goats from both sides of the walls.
Omg, just watch the rest already ahaha, listenning to you making theories, some close, some far, makes me wanna see your reactions to those answers/happenings!! Can't really wait for more ep reactions!
Something interesting, in the shot at the end of season three where you see Zeke ratting out his parents, you can see mr ksaver kneeling down besides him with his hand on Zekes shoulder. And when Grisha first runs out of the wall with his sister, they also bump into him I think.
Ksaver is right when he says that Zeke's parents never loved him, grisha himself pretty much confessed it when he said that maybe he never actually cared about Zeke himself but only his royal blood and the potential he meant for HIS cause.
There are a lot of greys but even if grisha's fight against Marley was justified, at that time he was just a radical nationalist who used to lie as much as Marley on favor of a certain perspective of the conflict, too blinded for his own good.
Yeah totally agree. it was clearly shown when Grice asked Grisha how he even knew all those parts of ‘history’ he was indoctrinating in the other patriots. Grice points out they were still in the process of deciphering whatever records they had. Grisha said he believes it simply because he believes in Ymir which is quite the blind statement.
what? he's their first child of course they loved him, just not for the right reasons. Mr Ksaver was probably just saying that so Zeke doesn't harbor any guilt or psychological trauma for doing that to his own parents.
Dude this is such a good episode.Grishas VA was crazy
Suffering is part of life, yes, but some suffer more intensely and more often. Some of us suffer awfully on a daily basis. When you live in a world that has the power to ease a person's passing when people are too sick or old but it isn't offered as an option, you're forced to either do something to yourself that's brutal and can potentially fail and make things worse or wait until the end comes while continuing to suffer horribly. Also factor in the fact that none of us ask to be born and some of those babies will be born with horrible illnesses and diseases and I have to wonder at the indifference and cruelty of the whole thing. I don't have any answers either but I tell you that line about 'salvation is being never born' is a line that speaks strongly to me.
any individual person is welcome to feel that way, but imposing that belief on others is unjustifiable imo
@@jimmiejam508 I wasn't promoting the idea for others. I'm not sure if it works that way for humans really. Our survival instinct is too strong and so are our emotional ties. I'm just saying that for those few of us that might want to be done, it would be more humane to give us a painless way out. I've already discussed this with my family so if the day comes, they understand my reasoning. But doing something yourself always runs the risk of failure and causing yourself even worse suffering.
I don't know if any of that makes sense. I feel like a hamster on a wheel that I have no choice to keep pushing forward on despite the fact I'm broken in so many ways and most of those ways have no cure at all. One of the many conditions I have is called trigeminal neuralgia. Feel free to look up a trigeminal neuralgia attack on YT but be warned that it's not easy to watch. It's touted as the "Suicide Disease" because it causes, according to many sources, the worst pain known to mankind.
To be clear, I don't want to die but I am so weary of suffering and some of it has no palliative that really helps. Sometimes it gets so severe and constant that I have to take shots of rum or everclear to try to dull it a little. We're in an opioid crisis so doctor's don't dole out anything for pain anymore.
I know you may not understand or agree with my position and that's okay. There are 8 billion different perspectives in the world and that's pretty awesome in my book. It's one of the things that really makes life interesting. But this perspective is mine. Thank you so much for being kind and understanding with your answer. 🤗💕
So now we know what these dainasours and all these animals in Season 2 OP refered to ..
They represnt all Beast Titan forms because he can choose what animal he wanna be in a form of
It's called "The Beast Titan" not "The Monkey Titan" .. for example Mr.Ksaver was the beast titan but we never knew how his titan looked like .. well in this episode when Mr.Ksaver was talking to Zeke about his family and his miserable life there was a refrence in the background of how Mr.Ksaver's titan was .. and it was a goat !
You can go back and check it out now and also that's why Mr.Ksaver told Zeke that his titan wasn't so useful in war cause obviously a goat would do nothing in a war.
"Parents who want you to follow a certain career path" is very different from parents who force their child into being a soldier for their revolution. They were terrible parents. Ksaver was saying what he believed, he wasn't being titan mind-controlled. This was a very frustrating part of the discussion to listen to.
It's so great seeing you guys theorize in previous episodes and saying "wow I wish we had an explanation or flashback for X thing but we'll probably never get that" and then you actually get that
My favourite episode in Part 1, lets gooo.
I love how ever since you guys started season 4, Ben has been saying "this is definitely one of my favourite episodes" and "this is one of the best characters ever" in almost every episode lol but I 100% get it, Isayama is a genius
Grisha VA always the highlight in every scene he's in man
I'm surprised they're not surprised that Eren agreed to it, that's how you knoe it's an authentically unique reaction! Love the analysis
In 3x18 Midnight Sun, Zeke tells Eren “ you look nothing like your father “ drop the y from your and it would’ve been a 🤯 reveal but the writer meticulously paces out the plot, so we finally get it in 4x15.
not only pacing, but this is also justified in a genius way because Zeke disowned grisha and adopted ksaver as his father
I don't get what reveal you're talking about. That Zeke is Eren half brother? But we got it way before 4x15, it was revealed in 3x20 "That Day".
Was waiting for you to get to this episode, was not disappointed with the discussion. You two are great!
I don't think it's to crazy to say grisha didn't love Zeke. I don't think is necessarily true but it sure does look like that from an outsider view. He doesn't play with you, he doesn't believe in you, he doesn't care what you want or have to say
This episode showed such an interesting contrast on how Eren and Zeke’s upbringing and temperament can lead them to have different worldviews
Eren’s view is “I have meaning because I was born into this world”
But then we have Zeke where he thinks, “I shouldn’t have been born into this world, so I will save our people from suffering by ‘euthanizing’ them”
I understand why Zeke came to this conclusion (and I feel for him bc he’s in such a shitty situation), but his decision is a bit too much…
his decision is a bit too much? 😅
I think Carla had a large impact on Eren too. Carla loved Eren unconditionally, compared to Dina with Zeke, who seemed to share a lot of Grisha's early sentiments.
Hahaha what? His plan is the best, and pacifist.
@@rodrigobenavidez395 it's not, it's naive. SPOILERS
His plan hinges on the future generations that inherit his and the founding Titan following through on his philosophies. And even if he did the same as the King of the walls and forced descendants to follow through, what stops someone usurping that vow in the same way he and Eren did. When people are given a death sentence, you can never be sure how far they will go to survive and once someone else is in control of the founder, they can simply reverse this plan entirely and we are back to square one.
It also hinges on the rest of the world accepting that you can't reproduce anymore and letting you die out. It's more likely that the paranoia and fear which has already permeated all levels of the culture that created so much prejudice, would drive people to still violently put an end to the Eldian race with their own hands anyways.
DON'T CONTINUE IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE MANGA.
And finally, th at parasite has a will of its own. It existed before titans. It can likely exist afterwards. If it can no longer spread itself through the descendants of Ymir, who is to say it can't detach and reattach to someone else entirely and start a new line, call them Subjects of Earl.
@@omarholder9036 I totally agree with that. And even if it weren't naive, it still isn't "pacifist", not for the Eldians. Zeke wants to impose his own feeling (wishing never to have been born) on an entire race, he plans of robbing every Eldian of their choice. It's ethnic genocide in the form of forced sterilization, and irl classified as a Crime against Humanity by the International Criminal Court.
Obviously, there isn't any "good" solution to this Titan issue; but Zeke's plan is definively not one.
The one only time Zeke defeated Levi... yet the only one time that mattered the most.
zeke didn't really want to be a part of this war. he got to teen years while being just a help for the army. that's why they showed Reiner's batch because titans are mostly given to an early age thus, gabi and falco competition to make it clear that he never wanted to be a candidate until ksaver said his story.
Faz Gabi and Rainer are my favourite alos zeke is sad boy
56:40 I mean you can sympathize, emphasize, connect with, relate, understand, and so on, but you don't have to forgive. It's like Brienne and Stannis. He toyed with Miche, Erwin and many others. The Norf remembers.
I'm lost, with this comparison to brieene and stannis
@@harsh_1910 if you know you know
It's like Levi said: "You don't have a shred of guilt in you and it shows."
Zeke is so convinced that his path is righteous he'll justify anything. He might feel bad for those he kills, like the scout recruits at the battle of Shiganshina, but he doesn't seem remorseful after the fact.
No regrets might be Levi's motto, but Zeke embodies it as well.
@@lucidiously Zeke probably embodies it better than Levi. For levi it's an ideal to reach. Zeke just seems to be in that state
I've been having a rough and stressful week, thank you for this upload! 🙏
As many times as I've watched this episode I cry every time Jean burns at the end 💔
These guys bring up so much for me to reexamine. For example, the two keys that Anna brings up: Zeke and Historia. Is it just really coincidental that both of those people had horribly tragic and sad issues in their formative years with their parents? Family would easily be able to manipulate people like this, I think, just like Rod did to Historia.
Gives a whole new implication to the "I'm not touching you!" thing brothers do with each other in the back of the car.
As morally complicated as the story has been so far, this is definitely where it takes a big step up in how grey it is. Enjoy it, cause it's only gonna get worse from here.
Zeke s perspective makes so much sense. Not everyone is an Eren, not everyone is willing to keep killing for the off chance they may win and be left at peace...not to mention Eldia is in a position that to survive they probably have to become the monsters they are portrayed as, which...would you want such a nation to even survive? It is a difficult and bitter pill to swallow but realistically - if Eldians were not able to bear children - less people would die, less people would suffer. I don t think I d join Zeke s perspective if I was in his position, but not coz I dont think he is right, but rather coz my surival instinct and selfishness would overwrite logic.
This is much of my perspective
I think a lot of people start to resonate with Zeke being pressured as a kid early in age. You can apply this concept with your own parents pressuring you to do well in school or many other similar situations. Zeke just wanted to enjoy his life at times and just felt trapped in the situation he was in.
S3E5 “You’re not like your father, you’ve got to try to enjoy things”
"They're waiting for marriage" 🤣
Zeke : So Eren... I hear you've been practising hardening HUH ?
Changing Eldian anatomy means Zeke could prevent Eldians from turning into titans in the first place, no?
Just think about that genius plan for a second.
I don't think that's possible because otherwise it's the most obvious solution
Oh god I cant wait to see your reactions on season 4 part 2 , hehehe.
spoilers..
if someone after listening that conversation really thinks that eren is with zeke's plan than that person not at all understands eren character. Filmbuff spotted in a second that eren is lying.
Eren's character is literally "I am special because I was born into this world", "Fight fight if you don't fight you don't win", "Want my friends to be happy"
And that girl(don't know her name) actually thinks that eren is with zeke's plan.
1. Zeke's only way of surviving was to turn in his parents cz they were all doomed to get shipped to paradise anyways.
2. Zeke's plan is the solution to end the cycle of violence caused by the existence of titans. So eldians will cease to exist in 100 years or so and for him it's the most peaceful way they can end their cursed history.
3. According to Isayama zeke is the most clever character in the show.
i think in this story, there is no distinction between bad guys and good guys or right and wrong. Everyone is right.
But the real question is : What would you do for freedom ? What would you risk ? What would you sacrifice ??
AAAAA I DONT EVEN REMEMBER WHATS COMING BUT AAA GOOD MORNING
oh hell I forgot the 4x14 discussion
14:09 aaaa it always feels weird hearing euthenization plan because the major catalyst is sterilization
30:45 (and versus Rumbling variations)
Calling him Nii-San aah
41:33 that would have to be done post humously though, unless it wasnt conscious
49:55 I mean it could make sense
even if it's a suicide, he'd have a "son" figure die twice in his life
But also...yeah
54:00 I mean he saw when Grisha walked away during training
Outside of that itd be more the changes he sees in Zeke's emotions, and maybe the "I have to become one"
1:08:15 well he also had a moment of anger for em towards the king
I heard people prefer part 2 over part 1 but part 1 to have more better episodes.
they're getting closer and closer 👀
33:10 idk how much free space you two have in your setup but one of you could have your phone in the middle of the desk with a stop watch going.
Zeke's character is awesome, that's very true!
@AutoSave: All your questions will be answered in Part 2 of this Final Season. Keep up the exposition!!! I love your channel!
P.S. Potential Spoilers in the Part 2 Opening - The song is in English.
Every time a reactor says, "Attack on titan is so good," I just have to click the like button.
Honestly Zeke's plan is fucked up but it is also true that there is no better plan at hand.
If they are to protect the lives of Eldians, they have to keep fighting Marley and other nations but eventually the power of Titan will be nothing against advanced technology. However, killing enemies while Eldia still holds the advantage of Titan will result in tons of casualties. Armin and Mikasa (and some higher-ups including Hange) seem to think that if they take time and talk to people, they can solve "misunderstanding" and make peace but if it's that easy, our world would have been peaceful a long time ago. Eren knows this is not possible as he knows how deep-rooted the fear and hatred towards Eldians are through the memories of Grisha. That's why he asked Armin if he saw the memories of Bertolt when Armin said people will understand they are not monsters through talking.
Euthanization plan is in fact a drastic measure but it is not harming nor making anyone suffer. Without killing lives of Eldians and non-Eldians, it can actually slove the conflict between Eldia and Marley. It is not the best plan where everyone will be happy since one race will be completely erased. However, it is the most realistic plan with minimum suffering of people.
This is such a powerful episode.
Did they not think about Levi standing 10 cm away from an explosion that can killed the Armored Titan?
Because their reaction didn't scream Levi gravely wounded/dead to me
Do not skip part 2 intro!!!
Very good discussion!!!!
nunca se olvden que estan en una guerra ,no se trata de quien la pasa peor si liberio o paradis ,se trata del mundo queriendo exterminar a los eldianos
son uno de los mejores reaccionadores de aot
como se puso contenta ella mientras veia y como disfrutaron este increible episodio
uno de mis favoritos
zeke es increible su personaje
eren god jaeger dijo muchas cosas importantes
30:32 Omg they're like alines, Eldiansz sounds pretty similar 😭😭
this is one of my fave episode of AOT
Maaan this is why I love watching reactions to AoT, I love to hear how reactors have different interpretations on some characters or situations in the show... *SPOILERS AHEAD*
So after their discussions I started thinking about Tom Ksaver in a way I had never thought before. When you finish watching or reading the manga you know that a certain character has been pulling the strings of everything all along. But we actually never know to what extent he can control things, and it really makes you wonder who or what is a result of his mastermind manipulation plan. Hearing Anna and Ben made me think that Ksaver could totally be another puppet. All the evidence is there tbh. Of course we will never know if this is so or not, but knowing that Eren is manipulating anyone in his way, and knowing all the info Ksaver had, and how he first got in contact with Zeke... It does seem like everything was planned from the beginning!!! Again, it can be like this, or not, but I think it's such a cool interpretation and it's worth to acknowledge. Man what a great show
Ksaver's name is similar to Xavier, but without the I.
RIP Levi ♥️
It's not shown in the anime but when ksaver says that his beast titan is not useful in war , he also mentions in manga that his beast titan is a whale , so not all beast titans are monke
'maybe Eren had a conversation with Historia after he met Elena'😳 guys you're so good
just wait until that episode
It is here,... the trilogy episodes.
first time i’m actually disagreeing with them because no, grisha did not love zeke. not one bit.
Increíble
Obra maestra
This channel is perfect in everything, I only wish for ben to stop taking notes during the episode.
For what its worth I've heard it called Pair-ah-dice, Pair-ah-deese, and a very french Pair-ah-dee pretty much interchangably.
Them talking about how it couldn't have worked out more perfectly and feels scripted makes me appreciate the end of the series more.
5 more episodes until 🤯
if u really know eren , u should know what eren gonna do
ua-cam.com/video/OjOYcZFBbJE/v-deo.html "This is like Zuko alone, it's like Zeke Alone!" Ah you bastards got me. Now I have to watch your ATLA reactions too gdi
Keep moving forward
Yes your right king Floch
君達に絶対視て欲しい映画を紹介する♪
「君の名は」 必ず視て欲しい。きっと忘れられない映画になるよ👍
I don't know Japanese but they've already seen your name before starting this channel.
And for reference they've said it's one of their favorite movies of all time whenever they mention it!
I am here!
[For People Who've Seen All Of Part 2]
"When Zeke and Eren haven't touched..." Wait. I'm just now thinking... why didn't they go ahead and touch when they first spoke and agreed on this plan? What were they waiting for? Planets to align? (sarcasm)
They were waiting for all the world to gather their forces by provoking the war so they can use little amount of colosal titans to destroy the world's military
@@mrfool3545 I don't recall them talking about that. Maybe it's translation issues. There are so many different versions of subs and not being a Japanese speaker, I don't know which are more correct but I've seen some that I knew were badly done. Most just make you more confused but some can be outright wrong because it's a fan just trying to add flavor or make it more Americanized. As an autistic person though, I can easily become confused with any kind of communication so it's frustrating.
The actual explanation would be a spoiler for the end of the show, but I will say they each had different reasons for needing to put off having contact.
@@DrewDragoon Thank you for not spoiling. I appreciate the hint though. ☺️
@@DrewDragoon What is the reason for postponing the contact of both?
ARRRGH, this discussion was so frustrating, because it seems like they never quite realize that Zeke's "euthanization" plan is actually the slow GENOCIDE OF THE ENTIRE ELDIAN RACE. Like, at the 1-hour mark, I thought for a moment that Anna was going to realize it -- she came so close, just one step away: "He's thinking, if I do this and free the world, I'll free all Eldians from suffering. That is not the case." And here I'm thinking YES, she GETS IT, but then: "Like we said, there's always going to be conflict, there's always going to be suffering in the world, there's always going to be war. You're just taking away the magical element." And I'm like NO, he's not just taking away the magical element, he's EXTERMINATING THE ENTIRE RACE.
And it's so frustrating, because I've seen so many reactions, and every time I want the reactors to immediately denounce this self-pitying, extremist, megalomaniacal, "messed-up" plan of Zeke's, and I don't think I've ever seen it. It's megalomaniacal because Zeke is taking it upon himself to decide the fate of his entire race, rather than let Eldians decide for themselves whether they want to have kids of their own. And who among Eldians would ever agree to it? (Ksaver is the only Eldian in the story that actually agrees with it, I think.) I believe the right to reproduce is an inalienable human right (the right of all living organisms in fact). It's a shit plan. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Jaegerist either. Neither the extinction of all Eldians nor the extinction of all non-Eldians is a morally defensible plan. Genocide is genocide. Thanks for listening, try our fish, and don't forget to tip your waitress! 😵💫🤯🤪
You're totally right, neither of those option is morally correct. But that's the beauty of this show; everythig that is being presented from the very beginning is morally debatable. Even if they don't realize how wrong it is to eliminate a whole race yet (or killing everyone else except for that race, but they haven't gotten there), I think it's natural to discuss whether it's a valid ideology. We're dealing with two extremes here and none of them is right. It's also very hard to think of other possible solutions. And as Ben says repetedly, we are not there and we have no idea what it's like to live the way they live in the show... so the only thing left to do as an audience is to discuss and debate...
Yes, it's a shitty plan and there's no way any Eldian would be on board, but after seeing Zeke's traumatic past and all he had to go through, it's not so crazy to have some understanding of his plan. And of course it's self-pitying, extremist, etc. because Zeke was very emotional about everything, just like the guys said. He obviously didn't think anything through. He was just being selfish. I don't agree with his plan and I also think it's terrible, but I do understand why he wants this and why viewers/reactors might sympathize with him.
Let's see, so what's the plan?
Do you realize that you say a lot of nonsense and in the end you don't contribute anything? You may not be a Jeaguerista nor do you support Zeke's plan, but it seems you have the same thinking as the MP's faction.
Or even as goofy as Connie.
Zeke's plan is the same as Eren's, but carried out peacefully and in reverse. I could say that it is the same plan as Marley and Eren combined.
@@julietaespinoza767 And I "sympathize" with him, in the sense that I understand where he's coming from and understand how he reached the conclusions he did. I just can't agree with it.
@@rodrigobenavidez395 SPOILERS FOR S4 PART 2 OF COURSE: My chief point in my post was that I was frustrated that Ben and Anna, like many reactors, didn't seem to grasp the full implications of Zeke's plan. What would I propose? I don't know. It feels like the show wants me to believe that those are the only two "realistic" options, but I haven't been convinced that's actually the case. It all seems to depend on exactly what the powers of the Founding Titan are -- how absolute and precise its control is of the other Titans and Eldians -- which it seems has been kept intentionally vague. I'm not convinced that Eren can't, as Gabi or Armin suggested, strategically take out the military bases of the rest of the world while leaving the population mostly intact. We see Eren wipe out the world's navy and cannons in an instant. He could have stopped there, buying Eldia time to build a conventional defense. I think Eldia should do that, just use the Titans as needed until it can take its place among the rest of the nations of the world with a VERY well-developed defense, rather like its analogue Israel. It will be terrible and probably require a lot of very bloody wars in the process, but it won't require genocide. It's just like real life: there's no permanent solution to war, unfortunately. But a race and a nation has a right to defend itself. (And sorry, no, forced sterilization of an entire race is not "peaceful.")
@@jlilley73 Let's see, you are saying that a solution would be to eliminate only the military bases and the Marleyan and world soldiers who are ready for war, meanwhile those from the island of Paradise can improve their weapons so that they can defend themselves longer and longer. And okay, that's still Zeke's plan, since Zeke's plan was not only sterilization, it was also what you mentioned, but that was already the work of the Azumabito.
Now, are you aware that to do that, yes or yes, a royal blood titan and a founding titan were needed, right?
I say this because you don't seem to understand that the only thing that can make Marley have peace with Paradise is the news that Paradise has the power to make the rumble if they ruin their peace.
Obviously it would be necessary to go back to the beginnings where children devour their parents to maintain that power.
But let's imagine that they stop doing that and the whereabouts of the founder or the titan of royal blood are unknown, and they only have the technology of the Azumabito to protect themselves, obviously wars, death and destruction will come.
What I'm trying to say is that in a world where 2 entities hate each other, only one survives. And you don't have to be so selfish as to drag your children into a war of ancestors, since whether you want it or not, it's the worst thing you can do. You say that Zeke's plan is bad just because the Eldians will no longer have the freedom to have children, but it seems worse to me that they use their children as cannon fodder, tell me.
You prefer that a person be born to be tortured or you prefer that person not be born.
someone tell me: are they brother and sister or are they a couple? (or perhaps both?)
Both 💀
Oh sweet home Alabama 😭
Srsly tho they're a couple.
Well You have two views, Grisha's and Zeke's : for one is to fight against opposition and for the other it is to make it so that Eldians don't exist. One is to struggle and create more cycles of war, hatred ,ect and the other is to end a certain cyle (the one caused by titans and human-titan interactions) but the cost is the desire to live. So both solutions are horrible anyways, factually Zeke's is better because when the titans will be eradicated of this world a very important layer of conflict will be removed from the show and that's racial discrimination againt eldians but morally it's very "wrong" because you're robbing people of their choices so that you can make a choice for them that will actually change something. While for Grisha's it's the other way around, the concept of struggling to live is a basic one that all creatures share and it makes us alive but factually this humane struggle is in history and in Aot source of conflict as Grisha does not want eldians to only survive but to "live" which is again admirable but as a concept. Because factually it will only breed violence. So who's to say that one is better than an other, the two ideologies have a major flaw each
I disagree i think Eren's way is better judging from what we observe in nature. If 2 species can't coexist then one species eradicates the other and that's the end of that.
@@BhBc8f8 Zeke's plan is the same as Eren's, only instead of devastating the rest of the world, the Eldians devastate in a peaceful way, whatever the plan of all the groups created in Shingeki, the best plan is the one from Zeke.
@@BhBc8f8 Don't spoil it bro
@@BhBc8f8
SPOILER ( for those that finished the anime not the manga)
And his way of doing things is more linked to the fact that he's exactly the same as someone who knows that he's doomed to die but his innate nature for fighting ( his "because I was born in this world" I have a right to live and fight for it) makes him want to change something before kicking the bucket because he cannot let himself die and leave those he care about to a world that will mercilessly kill them. People might find this cliche ( many stories does that as well) but Aot just does it 100 times better
@@abdelbouzazia4955 They've said they're not reading comments until they're caught up. But i mean it's not really that much of a spoiler if Ben's already thought it since 4x6. "So what's Eren solution, is he just going to kill everyone?" And I'm not a manga reader so even i don't know the full details
Magthe is cool man my boy who batter faze Gabi or him me him what you think
⚠️⚠️Do not watch s4p2 opening ⚠️⚠️
I did my part warning them in patreon, but the mods or whoever usually passes info to them regarding spoilers and stuff didn't do it this time when it was most needed, so instead ben just played an audio his close friend sent during the usual pre-episode discussion, I asumme that friend reads the comments on patreon and yet decided on his own to ignore them and told them to go ahead and watch the intro... so they did. Personally and if we want to be purists and go with the going blind type of reactions I rather have them not watch it, that being said, watching it also has its upsides, it gets you hyped up for the episodes and they have more context and something more to discuss, etc. So it's done, whatever and it is what it is.
@@EgoJinpachi_ What did they feel about it? It's the OP that has the second most amount of spoilers lol so I assume Ben had to be upset right?
And you're right that friend of theirs has even previously forced them to watch the openings when they obviously contain so many spoilers.
@@arwenlostlorn6569 hard to say, on the surface they were taken aback by the song and visuals and that took most of their focus, afterwards they didn't comment much on what they felt about the spoilers shown other than pointing at them like "oh we'll see the female titan again" and "we can see the rumbling in eren's eyes" , IF it was the case they disliked having watched it deep down for spoilery reasons, they wouldn't say it on camera cuz that would mean shtting on his friend's advice, so we'll have to wait and see if they expand on it next episodes.
@@EgoJinpachi_ Ahh I see. Oh well, as you said, it is what it is lol.
18:46
spoiler if you haven't finished the manga
*ahem*
Hallu-chan~
I've been wanting to say that every time