@@stateniland actually its only worth considering in these scenerios. 1) You live in a state that gives you tax credit towards the purchase for trading the used car (IE you buy a car with a purchase price of 30k and you get 12k for your used car. You pay taxes of only 18k on the new purchase.) 2) The dealer does not negotiate the trade in value. its plugged into a computer based on KBB and general demand for the vehicle- and thats the number you or ANYONE gets in trade.
@@stateniland you get less money and if that the ONLY thing being considered..... you come out on the bottom. but if you can minimize the discrepancy by getting tax credit towards the new vehicle and getting actual blue book trade in on the used vehicle. (Providing your car isnt a classic car or extremely rare)...... the discrepency might be worth avoiding a lot of the idiots who buy privately. In my experience- when you sell a sports car... you get a lot of people who want to just joy ride in the car. You get people who want you to go to their credit union 45 miles away to finalize the deal. (which means I have to go with someone else so I have a ride back). the trade in is so quick..... and you dont gotta worry bout dmv or smog certification. Also if your vehicle takes a long time to sell then you are paying insurance on the vehicvle while the vehicle is depreciating and you are putting your time into meeting people and taking rejecting ridiculous offers.
More than once, I've heard the dealer person or someone talking on their behalf about the mark up in other industries, particularly furniture and no one complains or negotiates their profit margin (first lesson is, ALL sales are negotiable). I first thought, that those guys don't pull some of the tricky, psychological and sometimes sleazy tactics to get as much of your money as they can. But, continuing to reflect, a few do! [Insurance salespeople have been known to sell people things, best for them not always you.] Car dealers have made their bed, and sales in general have. I decide to just be affable in my affairs, make reasonable profitable offers; but I still get offended and walk quickly away from the salesperson who starts with the shady talk and tactics.
Love you guys! Great father and son rapport, and very useful info. Your tightly focused topics are great, and the off the cuff, no editing format works! It’s genuine and refreshing. Mark my words, you’re gonna be at 100,000 subscribers soon, and you’ll be earning good money on You Tube. Maybe more than from the underlying business. Good luck and keep them coming!
I am the one that asked this question the other day and as much as I appreciate all the info you guys give, you mentioned nothing about initial offer for a used car which was my original question 🤔
It’s simple. Look up the Kelly blue book value. Then offer 2000 under that. The car would probably be 5000 above Kelly blue book. Threaten to walk out a few times. They will come around and eventually bring their manager out. That when you know you have them.
I think many Americans wouid change cars more often but for the pain of dealing with car dealerships that are out to extract every last dolllar from the customer.
It really depends on what you’re buying and how popular those vehicles are 10% in a $30,000 car shouldn’t be a problem the hold back alone is probably $800-$1000. i’ll give you good examples two years ago I bought a brand new 2018 Camaro one SAS at 8000 off MSRP granted I qualify for 90% of the rebates then just last year I bought a 2018 brand new leftover Corvette that sat for 14 months and I bought that at 13,000 off MSRP so it really depends on what you’re buying. People don’t know it but typically cars that are 30,000 or less don’t have a lot of wiggle room
If a vehicle is listed online with its price lowered by a rebate/customer cash, is it reasonable to ask for their invoice price THEN add the rebates/discounts? Also is it also acceptable to ask that a(additional) supplier discount be applied if you're a legitimate supplier discount code holder, and the dealership is advertising 'supplier pricing for all'? Interested in a Silverado, MSRP is 52,600. In my logic, my legit supplier code gets me $2911 off, GM customer cash gives me $6000, (thanks to internet research)'invoice' gives me $3200 off, and dealer 'price for everyone' is $4500 off. Would opening offer of $36,000 be met with "here's the door, have a nice day" or "let me talk to my manager"?
When you have a weak credit score the dealer really takes advantage of you.they make you feel lucky to get a loan but the interest is so high 18 to 20 percent.out of a 900 payment about 300 actually goes towards the principal of the car.wheres the protection of the consumer predortory lending
I didn't quite get a solid rule of thumb from this video. I think that from this and other of your videos I think you are saying: - Ask for a car with *exactly* what you want and nothing more. If that car doesn't exist you might accept one with a few extras but not pay a penny over the dealer cost for them, and definitely do not accept to pay for a single after market add-on. - The goal is to give the dealer a reasonable profit composed of dealer invoice + manufacturer destination fee + a reasonable documentation fee of about $300-500 + dealer incentives (which are higher during the last week of the month and December) + plus a reasonable profit of X% of the dealer invoice of the car. - If you don't know the dealer invoice start with a offer 3-10% below MSRP. - If the dealer balks, ask him to show you the dealer invoice and make him the reasonable offer from above. And of course, if you were able to get the actual dealer invoice information from one of the online sites... start with the accurate offer. The only unknown remaining is what is the "reasonable X% profit in the formula above"? 5%? More, less?
Look at the dealer Monroney label, take off 20%…..theres YOUR start….goat the end of the month, do not fall in love with any car, do your homework, get pre approved somewhere else, do not discuss monthly payments, do not bump yourself ( ie, dealer wants you to split the difference ) DO NOT BE AFRAID TO WALK…be courteous, reasonable but firm…..if you walk, expect a new call the next day….with a better deal in your favor……
Msrp stands for manufacturers suggested retail price . That’s not what they have to charge you. So with the internet you should always find out what the real profit margin is on a vehicle. Remember it’s a depreciating asset.
You guys are great! When I get ready for another car, I’ll ask you to do the negotiation for me. I do it so seldom, you’re certainly a lot better at it than me. Also, there are so many “fake fees” that dealerships try to add to the invoice, I refuse to pay those. Question: I live in Scottsdale AZ - are you guys in AZ also?
Your Auto Advocate - Well, I guess everything is done on the internet anyway, so location probably shouldn’t matter. I used to live back East, Queens NY. But Scottsdale is so much nicer. Move back here guys!!! 😀
As with any other commodity, supply and demand always enters in. If you want a popular model that is hard to keep in stock, then they will not discount much. Conversely a less popular, slow mover model could even be sold at a loss.
Ray, you often say that customers live in fantasyland for expecting certain things, and I agree. But, Ray, you must also live there with them if you think dealers do the things you are suggesting here - asking a dealer to deduct their incentive from the price of the car. I know for a fact that, unless one enters a dealership having all the information, he/she’s getting no help from the dealer. Thanks for your insight, though. Keep them coming!
I enjoy watching the videos you guys put together. I just started the negotiating process and i'm using some of the things you guys talked about. I tried to get clarification on what discounts were all included in the displayed discount. The response I got back was something to the effect of 'Here are all the incentives we are offering for this car purchase. Give us a call to set up a time we can meet.' I smiled, thinking back to what you guys said. I wrote them back and asked them to kindly re-read my inquiry and actually answer my question. thanks for the valuable info you guys share!
I would argue that a dealer is not entitled to a reasonable profit just because they've built a dealership. To me, it's about the value that they are providing ("what is your value to the marketplace..."?) In 2021, it's a bit frustrating that the consumer can't purchase something without having to go through a middleman when it oftentimes provides little to no value.. This would include when there is no trade-in and no test drive required. It seems likely that this entire business model will be significantly different 10-20 years from now, although there are lots of headwinds working against any change (government regulations, etc.)
Worked with a guy that used to be a car salesman. He said get invoice price and go at end of the month and offer them 200.00 above invoice. Things may be a little different now though.
Hi, its probably obvious, but when you say 8% off MSRP of 40k, is that the out the door price? Or is it 8% off, then adding taxes and registration/Tags?
Well, you can go in and low ball the price. But, you need to have an idea what your bottom line is. What will you be willing to buy. Your presentation today gives one the idea where the bottom is located.
Your percentages are a good rule of thumb but you have to consider the time of year. Is it year end? quarter end? are we in a pandemic? Just closed a deal on a 2020 MB GLC for 20% off MRSP for a family member.
I think what’s most important is that trade value as most if not all beat you up on that as they know you know what invoice and rebates is on that new vehicle you want. So you think you have an excellent trade and they value it as fair or good and they won’t move. The usual statement is I’m giving you wholesale price on the new vehicle and to be fair we need your trade at wholesale value.
As far as used car prices. I've heard that the used car pricing engines were not reliable because of business interests in selling those used cars. But I've heard from dealers that retail was too low and for trades they only pay black book.
As salespeople, we are trained how to see things from the customer's point of view. Having real empathy and understanding of the customer's motivation and way of thinking are imperative to making deals. Customers looking to make a fair deal should also employ at least some empathy and understanding for the car dealer. In the long run, it will earn them a better experience. Salespeople are just as susceptible to being sold as the customer. They will work harder for customers who are nice and not just about raw greed. Also, keep in mind that the higher up the chain you go, the less important front end profit is to the person you are negotiating with. If the owner negotiated every deal, gross profit would be very low. He wants volume much more than profit. The salesperson, however, cannot survive on the small commissions that come from "mini" deals. If more than 10% of those deals are minis, he has a major problem.
Randy O usually no; usually used car markets are regionally based. What I suggest you do Randy is get some apps (Cars, Edmunds, Autotrader) and get the EXACT filters for the car you want. Filter by price and use that as leverage. Get the out the door prices and say ‘hey this dealership is $650 cheaper what can you do?’ But when it comes to like rebates or offers you won’t have that with used cars usually. But you can negotiate free warranties or money off if you stick to your guns.
@@bythebullsshorts8769 Thanks Evan! This is what I figured. Sounds like the best plan is to figure out what I am willing to pay and start making offers. The one that can meet at the price point wins.
Randy O yea and don’t be shy to share that with the dealers. Make them compete for your business. I’m looking for Mustangs and I’m getting $2,000-$2,500 off the bat. Remind them any car you buy now is going to lose value due to the market too; and you need reassurance and a bill of sale BEFORE you go to the dealership so when they try and pull a fast one and you can show them your agreed upon price
interesting how you said 40% at 8:08. back in sept '09 that's exactly what i did on a new leftover 08 f250 4x4. sticker $46180. test drove it on a saturday morning, they called me sat night, sunday afternoon, monday morning. decided i not to get truck, but emailed dealer on monday afternoon a crazy offer of otd $29647.56. 46180-40% + 7% tax. thursday they told me to come get it. still driving it today. :)
Timing is everything in life. You happen to have stumbled upon the right truck for you at the right time when the dealer found himself in a desperate time and wanted cash on hand as opposed to metal sitting and depreciating. Good for you, my friend.
Putting aside the caveats mentioned in the video, was the “net take-away” that 2% - 3% over dealer’s invoice - with dealer’s also getting all his/her holdback $ and the customer receiving any current manufacturer-to-customer incentives - was a reasonable offer? If so, was this intended to be an “initial offer” or a reasonable offer on which to “close”?
I have been binge watching your channel thank very much for all the advise. Recently became disabled and looking at a 2021 sienna, hopefully will get one by March 1st.
They never tell you the incentives. Other problem is they may not be honest with MF and residual on a lease either. Fun back and forth but the right way to get the best deal is to call around and have at least 7 or 8 dealerships make You an offer
I USA;y get between Rand 7000 off used vehicles. For example. A dealer was selling a used vehicle for 19,000. Kelly blue book had the car at 14000. We know they didn’t pay anywhere near 14000 for it. I offered 12000. Said I was going to leave about 5 times. Even walked out once. Came back in. Their manager came out. Got the car for Kelly blue book value.
5:18 I’m watching now and i completely agree but also watching this now after the way they’ve treated us all with the mark ups and now with the desperation, I have requested 5k off and told them I’m in no rush and can’t wait until they just need to get rid of a car to meet a bonus. He said, that’s a lot of money off… let me see what I can do because we just had a port hold….
I'm looking at a car (used 2019) that is listed for $29,200. So by the logic you guys have provided, a good starting offer would be slightly less that $27,000. Wish me luck!
@@djmenace3646 You mean we should wait and let them lower the price first, then make an offer ? I'm looking, too; but don't know how to deal with car dealers.
@@CL-mp4vn yes, i recommend you wait until they make an offer first, or ask them what is the best they can do in terms of price, then make a counter offer. I have learned that whoever makes the offer first during a negotiation is at a disadvantage.
bs.....the dealer will never offer the lowest number, offer 25k and you will buy it today and see what they say....be prepared to wait possibly, your best bet to have multiple deals going at same time....don't fixate on 1 vehicle, keep searching and offering multiple dealers.....2k off used car is not good deal......they pay nothing for trades or used vehicles....if they say to come in tell them show you that same offer in writing thru email and if it stands we have a deal, you can do whole deal without going in there.....ive purchased 2 new trucks and traded in 1 in last year, YOU have to make offer, they will not offer you best possible price guaranteed....be aggressive and firm and don't give them any more info than you have too....and don't finance thru them if your credit is iffy or least get pre approved for your own.....they jack up interest rates to make profit....if you already have interest rate going in it will help you a ton....idk your situation and maybe you already know.....
Just attempted to purchase a vehicle today, 9000 dollar loan ,payoff 26,500, wow, 15,000 dollar loan, 38,000 dollar payoff for 66 months, that's from my local Toyota, chevy,gmc,buick dealership, and they were above fair market price by 3000 and said they dont come off of their prices ,period, we were approved for 20,000 for a Toyota rav4
👉🏼09.21.21 MSRP on my AUDI Q3 was 4O.6 k. My OTD was 38.5 cash. It’s been one year now, I got a good deal. It’s still in mint condition one year later. Gray, loaded! I Love ❤️ my AUDI!!! My first brand-new car. Test drove the 2021 “Stiff” Buick Envision 1st. The Dealer wanted more for that Envision with ALL its EXTRAS, than my AUDI with all the Audi STANDARDS, which they are known for. My Audi is worth every penny to me one year later. 😄❤️
What I’d like to know is how should I determine an initial fair offer for a used car from a dealer? I can look up value on NADA/KBB but I don’t know how much they are into the used car for. Any tips?
Great channel guys. My question is on Mini. They seem to be the only company that is not throwing up massive incentives during COVID-19. I keep my cars 10+ years and will buy. Is it all hidden in holdbacks or am I missing something
As much as I would like to see the dealer profit from a deal, I know full well the majority of their profits are made in Finance, via accessories (LoJack, tires, tint), and in the Service area. I see no issues negotiating a price to invoice because dealers really don't make much profit in sales anymore.
I offer them a very fair 6% off price and no silly ad ons. Then I leave because I always leave, I have had guys do anything short of tackling me to stop me from leaving.
No way are these huge mega dealerships staying in business with 2-4% margin. The only things dealers will deal on these days is your trade. If Ford or GM says that’s the price then that’s the price. Last week I found a new 2018 Ford truck, dealer said “sticker price.” I looked at a new 2020 and it was cheaper. Wait until X-mas and get a good price.
Jeff on new car sales they would be delighted to make 2 to 4%. In realty most car dealerships only make 1.5 to 3.5% net profit when everything is all said and done and most of that comes from parts and service, finance and insurance product sales and used car sales. New car sales for many stores is a losing proposition.
I made this mistake earlier in my search process. I offered the dealer $2k below what I would have been happy to make the purchase at, hoping that the dealer would counter with something in the middle. That wasn't working and I lost a lot of deals and the inventory of end-of-year trucks kept shrinking. I changed my strategy - Offer the dealer a realistic price and then stick to it. Say firmly - I have my credit card on me to make a deposit right now and will pick the vehicle over the weekend. That worked for me. How much below MSRP should you offer? That's not a straightforward question. It is complicated. I got my truck at about $11k below MSRP. Sounds great? Not really. Truck MSRPs are often inflated and it very common to get $10k below MSRP for trucks marked at close to $50k. That's not so much true for a Toyota Corrolla. Here's a general rule - the more luxury / higher trim a car is, the more the ability to get a discount since those addons are heavily marked up. Opposite is true if you are buying a high volume value model, in which case you will have limited ability to drive a bargain as someone else will pay the full price for a fast moving inventory. There is no flat % discount that applies to all cars. Just a change in engine can impact how much discount you can get. I recommend first starting with a dealership at a cheaper location. E.g. if you live in North Jersey look for dealerships in South Jersey or PA where real estate is cheaper and population is less dense. Then, go to True Car App and see what the low end of transaction price is. Make an offer at the low end over phone and stick to it. You only need one dealership to accept your offer.
How about asking to see the dealer invoice and starting from there? A buyer can’t factor in hold backs but maybe taking negotiations from invoice would disclose what the real (reasonable) profit might be.
Let me ask you this, Should the factory money come off the vehicle price first and then the trade in come off next ? 34250- 3250 factory rebates = 31000 - trade value 15000 = 16000. Are you taxed for the 31000 or the 34250?
I think it’s funny Zach, sometimes it’s Dad and other times it Ray. Anyway, great videos. Sounds like you offer a great service that’s definitely worth the money.
Have you guys thought about having a two tier pricing model? The one you have now (obviously). Then, the other one is a cheaper model where the customer negotiates their own deal and calls you guys to think if it's a fair deal. Just a thought.
Thanks for the suggestion! We've had quite a few folks ask us to do that. We're happy to help pro bona with deal reviews. Email us at team (at) yourautoadvocate.com!
I was thinking this.. Start the haggle and when it goes back and forth say I pay MSRP if you pay the sales tax. that will put it on the to discount the vehicle a bit so they can decrease the tax. Because sales tax could be 8-10%.
Hi guy, Ray I noticed you wearing a McGill sweater. Ex Montrealer here. For Canadian buyers, Are destination fees the same as the dealership profit Doc fees in the states? Thanks for great content.
PDI is the cost of getting the car to the lot. Ships, trains, trucks and the pre-sale inspection which includes adding fuses, radio codes, removing packaging...yes, cars are wrapped in all sorts. This is not doc!
What is your opinion of no haggle car price strategy of dealer today. The posted price is the price plus fees extra; tags registration tax etc. I have had sales person say they do not negotiate any on price of car and what they offer is best price around. If you do not like it go somewhere else.Yet other prices of dealers are considerably lower and do not include fees also. Hard to know who to believe. I usually leave or go somewhere else if their initial price is out of say $750 to $1000 from what is offered by competitors.
I remember buying a car and the salesman gave me his employee discount on top of all other incentives. My Question is how often can sales person use that ? Once per yr ? Or monthly?
Scott, it all depends. Sometimes dealer's have extra savings vouchers or certificates given to them by the manufacturer that they can use as they see fit on deals. So, perhaps each salesperson is given x-number of them for their use that month and your salesperson wanted to reward you and did. Stay safe, Ray
What about used cars? I got an appointment to test drive a used car wednesday and would like to know especially when factoring the current economic situation. The car I'm looking at was marked down $1500 recently probably due to corona and sitting on the lot for 60 days.
Thanks for the great info,. But what about used cars? What is a good percentage? Especially now with the recession,. I still haven't seen much of a decline on pricing on used trucks.
20% on 1500s easily....on 2500s a bit tougher.....ram and chevy have huge rebates now and if your smart they have huge dealer discounts.....12-14k off msrp …..its totally doable and know people who have recently, be smart, aggressive and shop multiple dealers....throughout state and others as well
This video did not really address used cars... What is a good rule of thumb on what to offer on a used car? Certainly it depends on the market conditions (supply vs. demand), but any general rules?
That's what I hate, they put all offers in, you go check it out and find out no offer available to me and price was a hoax, never visiting those places again
Great video discussion, what would you pay for a 2019 model in 2020 now? I'm able to find 2019 model still new and unsold. How much discount is expected to be fair?
What about used cars? I'm currently looking at 2017 model year, 3 yrs lease returns, so is KBB Trade in value + $1500 recon + a 5% profit margin a good place to start an offer on used cars?
Got my 2019 GLC 3 weeks ago. Certified used car from authorized dealer with 7,000 miles on board. Listed price 45,900. Haggled back and forth, managed to get it for 41,800. Sold my 2012 GLK privately at 16,000. That was 4,000 more than what dealer offered me for it. My advice is try selling your old car privately, you will get a better deal than thru the dealer buy back program. They always under evaluate when buying and over price when selling. Then go on a hunt for the model you want, haggle without shame, check other dealers, find the best offer then tell the others to beat that.
Ray. I’m looking at ordering king ranch 2022 from ford. What % off msrp should I expect on an 80,000 truck? Some dealers are at list plus 1000. Utah one dealer is msrp, no more. This Utah dealer says other ford dealers in Utah are at MSRP PLUS. Getting ready to order soon and want to make sure that my expectation Is appropriate as I negotiate price. Thx much. FYI I have only spoken to three dealers so far to in the Boise area and one in the Salt Lake area. As I travel for business I will be checking with other small town Ford dealers to see if they’re willing to earn some business
Car dealers hate out the door prices or buying a car through your bank.by taking the bill of sale to your bank.dont let them send the paper work themselves . you as the buyer take it your self. if they do they make money out of it as the middle men.
It's fine that car dealers make a fair profit margin but, if they didn't have a history of gauging and ripping off folks, I'm not surprised buyers try to get the best deal possible.
@9:55 Can y'all please make a video going more into depth with buying a car in December. Can I go in at 20% off msrp, how desperate are the sales people to get rid of 2020's, etc. I plan on buying a 2020 Camry during the last week of December. However I know exactly what color, trim and package I want. Should I be ready to compromise on one of those?
Have you Heard of Auto Boutique Used Cars? if so, Have you done deals with them? Would you use them? They are in Columbus Ohio. I think there is one in Florida.
Would I ask for the invoice price for a used vehicle that was traded in? I seen the infamous “A” at the end of the stock number and “GRT” at the beginning of it. Thanks to you guys’ previous video...I take notes 😉
I've strike out 5 different time making an offer just 2k less than the asking internet price. The dealers dont seems to budge at all from asking price. They all said that's their best offer.
Show interest in a car via email They will ask you to come in and look at it Tell them your busy Do not give phone # They will send you a bs offer of a few thousand off Wait a few days and than respond kindly telling them thats too much $ for that car and you have been looking at other cars with great offers. They will offer you the car for 20% off Can easily get another 6% to 10% added to that 20% Learn to time the emails right and what to say Good luck
87442CUT BIGBLOCK455 what!? Up to 20-25% off??? You’re either a shark or you’re in a market where the dealers are willing to drop their trousers at the sound of a penny dropping
Im trying to buy a new 2019 car msrp 44,300 and Im offering 40,000 before ttt- tax, title, tag. And the dealer only wants to discount 2,500. Ive been keeping touch with them since December and through all this coronavirus crap they haven’t dropped their price a dime.
I'm about to car shop with my own financing and I'm NOT desperate, so that helps me. But I'm torn over how much to make my offer. As built msrp is 32700 and dealer price as calculated on their website is 33500. Am I unrealistic to stick firm to 30500?
The dealer usually doesn’t have any problem insulting you with real money trade in offers.
NEVER trade in your car to a dealer...
@@stateniland actually its only worth considering in these scenerios.
1) You live in a state that gives you tax credit towards the purchase for trading the used car (IE you buy a car with a purchase price of 30k and you get 12k for your used car. You pay taxes of only 18k on the new purchase.)
2) The dealer does not negotiate the trade in value. its plugged into a computer based on KBB and general demand for the vehicle- and thats the number you or ANYONE gets in trade.
@@abprepboy33 sell privately.. or it's your lose
@@stateniland you get less money and if that the ONLY thing being considered..... you come out on the bottom. but if you can minimize the discrepancy by getting tax credit towards the new vehicle and getting actual blue book trade in on the used vehicle. (Providing your car isnt a classic car or extremely rare)...... the discrepency might be worth avoiding a lot of the idiots who buy privately.
In my experience- when you sell a sports car... you get a lot of people who want to just joy ride in the car. You get people who want you to go to their credit union 45 miles away to finalize the deal. (which means I have to go with someone else so I have a ride back). the trade in is so quick..... and you dont gotta worry bout dmv or smog certification.
Also if your vehicle takes a long time to sell then you are paying insurance on the vehicvle while the vehicle is depreciating and you are putting your time into meeting people and taking rejecting ridiculous offers.
What ever happened to the NADA book being the standard? Last time I got a vehicle loan it was standard when it came to the lender.
More than once, I've heard the dealer person or someone talking on their behalf about the mark up in other industries, particularly furniture and no one complains or negotiates their profit margin (first lesson is, ALL sales are negotiable).
I first thought, that those guys don't pull some of the tricky, psychological and sometimes sleazy tactics to get as much of your money as they can. But, continuing to reflect, a few do! [Insurance salespeople have been known to sell people things, best for them not always you.]
Car dealers have made their bed, and sales in general have.
I decide to just be affable in my affairs, make reasonable profitable offers; but I still get offended and walk quickly away from the salesperson who starts with the shady talk and tactics.
Love you guys! Great father and son rapport, and very useful info. Your tightly focused topics are great, and the off the cuff, no editing format works! It’s genuine and refreshing. Mark my words, you’re gonna be at 100,000 subscribers soon, and you’ll be earning good money on You Tube. Maybe more than from the underlying business. Good luck and keep them coming!
Great job guys. I really appreciate the information as I really HATE walking into a dealership to once again buy a car
That ray guy kinda knows his stuff! Plus he's got some personality, appreciate you're good work guys, thanks!
Ray? His name's Dad.
I am the one that asked this question the other day and as much as I appreciate all the info you guys give, you mentioned nothing about initial offer for a used car which was my original question 🤔
Yes, he basically suggested figuring the percentage between the invoice and the msrp and offer a portion of that percentage.
Did you listen? He is not the dealer, he does not have numbers on the car you want......he did answer your question.
It’s simple. Look up the Kelly blue book value. Then offer 2000 under that. The car would probably be 5000 above Kelly blue book. Threaten to walk out a few times. They will come around and eventually bring their manager out. That when you know you have them.
I think many Americans wouid change cars more often but for the pain of dealing with car dealerships that are out to extract every last dolllar from the customer.
You guys are great father and son duo. We love your honest opinion. I found out about the internet price it's just a teaser price to get you in.
It really depends on what you’re buying and how popular those vehicles are 10% in a $30,000 car shouldn’t be a problem the hold back alone is probably $800-$1000. i’ll give you good examples two years ago I bought a brand new 2018 Camaro one SAS at 8000 off MSRP granted I qualify for 90% of the rebates then just last year I bought a 2018 brand new leftover Corvette that sat for 14 months and I bought that at 13,000 off MSRP so it really depends on what you’re buying. People don’t know it but typically cars that are 30,000 or less don’t have a lot of wiggle room
If a vehicle is listed online with its price lowered by a rebate/customer cash, is it reasonable to ask for their invoice price THEN add the rebates/discounts? Also is it also acceptable to ask that a(additional) supplier discount be applied if you're a legitimate supplier discount code holder, and the dealership is advertising 'supplier pricing for all'?
Interested in a Silverado, MSRP is 52,600. In my logic, my legit supplier code gets me $2911 off, GM customer cash gives me $6000, (thanks to internet research)'invoice' gives me $3200 off, and dealer 'price for everyone' is $4500 off. Would opening offer of $36,000 be met with "here's the door, have a nice day" or "let me talk to my manager"?
Didnt think U covered used cars much in this video, still enjoy your vids Thanks
When you have a weak credit score the dealer really takes advantage of you.they make you feel lucky to get a loan but the interest is so high 18 to 20 percent.out of a 900 payment about 300 actually goes towards the principal of the car.wheres the protection of the consumer predortory lending
I didn't quite get a solid rule of thumb from this video. I think that from this and other of your videos I think you are saying:
- Ask for a car with *exactly* what you want and nothing more. If that car doesn't exist you might accept one with a few extras but not pay a penny over the dealer cost for them, and definitely do not accept to pay for a single after market add-on.
- The goal is to give the dealer a reasonable profit composed of dealer invoice + manufacturer destination fee + a reasonable documentation fee of about $300-500 + dealer incentives (which are higher during the last week of the month and December) + plus a reasonable profit of X% of the dealer invoice of the car.
- If you don't know the dealer invoice start with a offer 3-10% below MSRP.
- If the dealer balks, ask him to show you the dealer invoice and make him the reasonable offer from above.
And of course, if you were able to get the actual dealer invoice information from one of the online sites... start with the accurate offer.
The only unknown remaining is what is the "reasonable X% profit in the formula above"? 5%? More, less?
Look at the dealer Monroney label, take off 20%…..theres YOUR start….goat the end of the month, do not fall in love with any car, do your homework, get pre approved somewhere else, do not discuss monthly payments, do not bump yourself ( ie, dealer wants you to split the difference ) DO NOT BE AFRAID TO WALK…be courteous, reasonable but firm…..if you walk, expect a new call the next day….with a better deal in your favor……
Keep up the good work. God rewards those who are honest
You guys always have the right videos! Planning to get a car soon but i have to learn the business first. Thanks guys
Msrp stands for manufacturers suggested retail price . That’s not what they have to charge you. So with the internet you should always find out what the real profit margin is on a vehicle. Remember it’s a depreciating asset.
You guys are great! When I get ready for another car, I’ll ask you to do the negotiation for me. I do it so seldom, you’re certainly a lot better at it than me. Also, there are so many “fake fees” that dealerships try to add to the invoice, I refuse to pay those.
Question: I live in Scottsdale AZ - are you guys in AZ also?
We used to live in Scottsdale but moved east during the great recession of 08 -09.
Your Auto Advocate - Well, I guess everything is done on the internet anyway, so location probably shouldn’t matter. I used to live back East, Queens NY. But Scottsdale is so much nicer. Move back here guys!!! 😀
As with any other commodity, supply and demand always enters in. If you want a popular model that is hard to keep in stock, then they will not discount much. Conversely a less popular, slow mover model could even be sold at a loss.
Ray, you often say that customers live in fantasyland for expecting certain things, and I agree. But, Ray, you must also live there with them if you think dealers do the things you are suggesting here - asking a dealer to deduct their incentive from the price of the car. I know for a fact that, unless one enters a dealership having all the information, he/she’s getting no help from the dealer. Thanks for your insight, though. Keep them coming!
I hear you, but it really depends on the dealer. Yes knowledge is the key. Thanks for watching.
I got my RAM at 19% off MSRP in March because it was a leftover from the prior year. I'll wait for another leftover deal rather than buy now.
Would you do 10% off it's halfway into the life cycle? Asking for an opinion
@@turkeychicken69 No
I enjoy watching the videos you guys put together. I just started the negotiating process and i'm using some of the things you guys talked about. I tried to get clarification on what discounts were all included in the displayed discount. The response I got back was something to the effect of 'Here are all the incentives we are offering for this car purchase. Give us a call to set up a time we can meet.' I smiled, thinking back to what you guys said. I wrote them back and asked them to kindly re-read my inquiry and actually answer my question. thanks for the valuable info you guys share!
I would argue that a dealer is not entitled to a reasonable profit just because they've built a dealership. To me, it's about the value that they are providing ("what is your value to the marketplace..."?) In 2021, it's a bit frustrating that the consumer can't purchase something without having to go through a middleman when it oftentimes provides little to no value.. This would include when there is no trade-in and no test drive required. It seems likely that this entire business model will be significantly different 10-20 years from now, although there are lots of headwinds working against any change (government regulations, etc.)
Worked with a guy that used to be a car salesman. He said get invoice price and go at end of the month and offer them 200.00 above invoice. Things may be a little different now though.
Hi, its probably obvious, but when you say 8% off MSRP of 40k, is that the out the door price? Or is it 8% off, then adding taxes and registration/Tags?
Well, you can go in and low ball the price. But, you need to have an idea what your bottom line is. What will you be willing to buy. Your presentation today gives one the idea where the bottom is located.
Your percentages are a good rule of thumb but you have to consider the time of year. Is it year end? quarter end? are we in a pandemic? Just closed a deal on a 2020 MB GLC for 20% off MRSP for a family member.
I think what’s most important is that trade value as most if not all beat you up on that as they know you know what invoice and rebates is on that new vehicle you want. So you think you have an excellent trade and they value it as fair or good and they won’t move. The usual statement is I’m giving you wholesale price on the new vehicle and to be fair we need your trade at wholesale value.
As far as used car prices. I've heard that the used car pricing engines were not reliable because of business interests in selling those used cars. But I've heard from dealers that retail was too low and for trades they only pay black book.
As salespeople, we are trained how to see things from the customer's point of view. Having real empathy and understanding of the customer's motivation and way of thinking are imperative to making deals. Customers looking to make a fair deal should also employ at least some empathy and understanding for the car dealer. In the long run, it will earn them a better experience. Salespeople are just as susceptible to being sold as the customer. They will work harder for customers who are nice and not just about raw greed.
Also, keep in mind that the higher up the chain you go, the less important front end profit is to the person you are negotiating with. If the owner negotiated every deal, gross profit would be very low. He wants volume much more than profit. The salesperson, however, cannot survive on the small commissions that come from "mini" deals. If more than 10% of those deals are minis, he has a major problem.
These videos are great! Thank you guys. I would very much be interested in a video on what to offer on a used car. Thank you!
Thanks guys! But what about Used cars? Tomorrow's viedo ?
Would like to know as well. When you talk about dealer incentives, do those apply to the used car market as well?
Randy O usually no; usually used car markets are regionally based. What I suggest you do Randy is get some apps (Cars, Edmunds, Autotrader) and get the EXACT filters for the car you want. Filter by price and use that as leverage. Get the out the door prices and say ‘hey this dealership is $650 cheaper what can you do?’ But when it comes to like rebates or offers you won’t have that with used cars usually. But you can negotiate free warranties or money off if you stick to your guns.
@@bythebullsshorts8769 Thanks Evan! This is what I figured. Sounds like the best plan is to figure out what I am willing to pay and start making offers. The one that can meet at the price point wins.
Randy O yea and don’t be shy to share that with the dealers. Make them compete for your business. I’m looking for Mustangs and I’m getting $2,000-$2,500 off the bat. Remind them any car you buy now is going to lose value due to the market too; and you need reassurance and a bill of sale BEFORE you go to the dealership so when they try and pull a fast one and you can show them your agreed upon price
@@bythebullsshorts8769 I am also in the Mustang market. I keep going back and forth on the S197 2013/14 or the S550 2016/17. Happy hunting.
interesting how you said 40% at 8:08. back in sept '09 that's exactly what i did on a new leftover 08 f250 4x4. sticker $46180. test drove it on a saturday morning, they called me sat night, sunday afternoon, monday morning. decided i not to get truck, but emailed dealer on monday afternoon a crazy offer of otd $29647.56. 46180-40% + 7% tax. thursday they told me to come get it. still driving it today. :)
Timing is everything in life. You happen to have stumbled upon the right truck for you at the right time when the dealer found himself in a desperate time and wanted cash on hand as opposed to metal sitting and depreciating. Good for you, my friend.
An invoice deal less incentives is a fair deal for all. The dealer makes the holdback and doc fee, and you get a decent price.
Putting aside the caveats mentioned in the video, was the “net take-away” that 2% - 3% over dealer’s invoice - with dealer’s also getting all his/her holdback $ and the customer receiving any current manufacturer-to-customer incentives - was a reasonable offer? If so, was this intended to be an “initial offer” or a reasonable offer on which to “close”?
I have been binge watching your channel thank very much for all the advise. Recently became disabled and looking at a 2021 sienna, hopefully will get one by March 1st.
Love your videos. They're so informative and helpful. Thank you
They never tell you the incentives. Other problem is they may not be honest with MF and residual on a lease either. Fun back and forth but the right way to get the best deal is to call around and have at least 7 or 8 dealerships make You an offer
Pretty hard to insult a car guy......!!! love that ...I think i like these guys.
That green cannondale Is freeking awesome bro. Thanks for the info.
Right now. MSRP is the price. 22' K5 Gt-line premium $31500. Offered $30,000. No counter.
I USA;y get between Rand 7000 off used vehicles. For example. A dealer was selling a used vehicle for 19,000. Kelly blue book had the car at 14000. We know they didn’t pay anywhere near 14000 for it. I offered 12000. Said I was going to leave about 5 times. Even walked out once. Came back in. Their manager came out. Got the car for Kelly blue book value.
5:18 I’m watching now and i completely agree but also watching this now after the way they’ve treated us all with the mark ups and now with the desperation, I have requested 5k off and told them I’m in no rush and can’t wait until they just need to get rid of a car to meet a bonus. He said, that’s a lot of money off… let me see what I can do because we just had a port hold….
I'm looking at a car (used 2019) that is listed for $29,200. So by the logic you guys have provided, a good starting offer would be slightly less that $27,000. Wish me luck!
Don't make the first offer.
@@djmenace3646
You mean we should wait and let them lower the price first, then make an offer ?
I'm looking, too; but don't know how to deal with car dealers.
Whoever gives the first number is at a disadvantage. Make them sell you the car. Force them to go first if possible.
@@CL-mp4vn yes, i recommend you wait until they make an offer first, or ask them what is the best they can do in terms of price, then make a counter offer. I have learned that whoever makes the offer first during a negotiation is at a disadvantage.
bs.....the dealer will never offer the lowest number, offer 25k and you will buy it today and see what they say....be prepared to wait possibly, your best bet to have multiple deals going at same time....don't fixate on 1 vehicle, keep searching and offering multiple dealers.....2k off used car is not good deal......they pay nothing for trades or used vehicles....if they say to come in tell them show you that same offer in writing thru email and if it stands we have a deal, you can do whole deal without going in there.....ive purchased 2 new trucks and traded in 1 in last year, YOU have to make offer, they will not offer you best possible price guaranteed....be aggressive and firm and don't give them any more info than you have too....and don't finance thru them if your credit is iffy or least get pre approved for your own.....they jack up interest rates to make profit....if you already have interest rate going in it will help you a ton....idk your situation and maybe you already know.....
Love the content. And I have the same Cannondale in the same color. 😊
Just attempted to purchase a vehicle today, 9000 dollar loan ,payoff 26,500, wow, 15,000 dollar loan, 38,000 dollar payoff for 66 months, that's from my local Toyota, chevy,gmc,buick dealership, and they were above fair market price by 3000 and said they dont come off of their prices ,period, we were approved for 20,000 for a Toyota rav4
👉🏼09.21.21 MSRP on my AUDI Q3 was 4O.6 k. My OTD was 38.5 cash. It’s been one year now, I got a good deal. It’s still in mint condition one year later. Gray, loaded! I Love ❤️ my AUDI!!! My first brand-new car.
Test drove the 2021 “Stiff” Buick Envision 1st.
The Dealer wanted more for that Envision with ALL its EXTRAS, than my AUDI with all the Audi STANDARDS, which they are known for. My Audi is worth every penny to me one year later. 😄❤️
What I’d like to know is how should I determine an initial fair offer for a used car from a dealer? I can look up value on NADA/KBB but I don’t know how much they are into the used car for. Any tips?
Great channel guys. My question is on Mini. They seem to be the only company that is not throwing up massive incentives during COVID-19. I keep my cars 10+ years and will buy. Is it all hidden in holdbacks or am I missing something
As much as I would like to see the dealer profit from a deal, I know full well the majority of their profits are made in Finance, via accessories (LoJack, tires, tint), and in the Service area. I see no issues negotiating a price to invoice because dealers really don't make much profit in sales anymore.
How come you guys never talk about starting from dealer invoice?
I offer them a very fair 6% off price and no silly ad ons. Then I leave because I always leave, I have had guys do anything short of tackling me to stop me from leaving.
No way are these huge mega dealerships staying in business with 2-4% margin. The only things dealers will deal on these days is your trade. If Ford or GM says that’s the price then that’s the price. Last week I found a new 2018 Ford truck, dealer said “sticker price.” I looked at a new 2020 and it was cheaper. Wait until X-mas and get a good price.
Jeff on new car sales they would be delighted to make 2 to 4%. In realty most car dealerships only make 1.5 to 3.5% net profit when everything is all said and done and most of that comes from parts and service, finance and insurance product sales and used car sales. New car sales for many stores is a losing proposition.
Thank you guys so much!! i love yalls videos they are awesome!!!
Thanks for watching, Roger. We appreciate your support and viewership!
I made this mistake earlier in my search process. I offered the dealer $2k below what I would have been happy to make the purchase at, hoping that the dealer would counter with something in the middle. That wasn't working and I lost a lot of deals and the inventory of end-of-year trucks kept shrinking.
I changed my strategy - Offer the dealer a realistic price and then stick to it. Say firmly - I have my credit card on me to make a deposit right now and will pick the vehicle over the weekend. That worked for me.
How much below MSRP should you offer? That's not a straightforward question. It is complicated. I got my truck at about $11k below MSRP. Sounds great? Not really. Truck MSRPs are often inflated and it very common to get $10k below MSRP for trucks marked at close to $50k. That's not so much true for a Toyota Corrolla.
Here's a general rule - the more luxury / higher trim a car is, the more the ability to get a discount since those addons are heavily marked up. Opposite is true if you are buying a high volume value model, in which case you will have limited ability to drive a bargain as someone else will pay the full price for a fast moving inventory. There is no flat % discount that applies to all cars. Just a change in engine can impact how much discount you can get.
I recommend first starting with a dealership at a cheaper location. E.g. if you live in North Jersey look for dealerships in South Jersey or PA where real estate is cheaper and population is less dense. Then, go to True Car App and see what the low end of transaction price is. Make an offer at the low end over phone and stick to it. You only need one dealership to accept your offer.
How about asking to see the dealer invoice and starting from there? A buyer can’t factor in hold backs but maybe taking negotiations from invoice would disclose what the real (reasonable) profit might be.
Let me ask you this, Should the factory money come off the vehicle price first and then the trade in come off next ? 34250- 3250 factory rebates = 31000 - trade value 15000 = 16000. Are you taxed for the 31000 or the 34250?
I believe you are taxed for the $16,000.
I think it’s funny Zach, sometimes it’s Dad and other times it Ray. Anyway, great videos. Sounds like you offer a great service that’s definitely worth the money.
Have you guys thought about having a two tier pricing model? The one you have now (obviously). Then, the other one is a cheaper model where the customer negotiates their own deal and calls you guys to think if it's a fair deal. Just a thought.
Thanks for the suggestion! We've had quite a few folks ask us to do that. We're happy to help pro bona with deal reviews. Email us at team (at) yourautoadvocate.com!
It sounds like you guys are talking about mainly new cars, can you cover used cars please?
Best car content out there. Love it
I was thinking this.. Start the haggle and when it goes back and forth say I pay MSRP if you pay the sales tax. that will put it on the to discount the vehicle a bit so they can decrease the tax. Because sales tax could be 8-10%.
Hi guy,
Ray I noticed you wearing a McGill sweater. Ex Montrealer here. For Canadian buyers, Are destination fees the same as the dealership profit Doc fees in the states? Thanks for great content.
PDI is the cost of getting the car to the lot. Ships, trains, trucks and the pre-sale inspection which includes adding fuses, radio codes, removing packaging...yes, cars are wrapped in all sorts. This is not doc!
Ditto on the used car offers. 🤞
Hi, I’m just curious! How much do you charge for negotiation?!!
What is your opinion of no haggle car price strategy of dealer today. The posted price is the price plus fees extra; tags registration tax etc. I have had sales person say they do not negotiate any on price of car and what they offer is best price around. If you do not like it go somewhere else.Yet other prices of dealers are considerably lower and do not include fees also. Hard to know who to believe. I usually leave or go somewhere else if their initial price is out of say $750 to $1000 from what is offered by competitors.
Love your videos Gents. Would you say we have better pricing available to us when leasing or buying a new car ?
Let's be honest here dealer is not out to loose money they will screw you anyway possible
That Cannondale looks to be a low mileage one owner.
I remember buying a car and the salesman gave me his employee discount on top of all other incentives. My Question is how often can sales person use that ? Once per yr ? Or monthly?
Scott, it all depends. Sometimes dealer's have extra savings vouchers or certificates given to them by the manufacturer that they can use as they see fit on deals. So, perhaps each salesperson is given x-number of them for their use that month and your salesperson wanted to reward you and did. Stay safe, Ray
What about used cars? I got an appointment to test drive a used car wednesday and would like to know especially when factoring the current economic situation. The car I'm looking at was marked down $1500 recently probably due to corona and sitting on the lot for 60 days.
Thanks for the great info,. But what about used cars? What is a good percentage? Especially now with the recession,. I still haven't seen much of a decline on pricing on used trucks.
20% on 1500s easily....on 2500s a bit tougher.....ram and chevy have huge rebates now and if your smart they have huge dealer discounts.....12-14k off msrp …..its totally doable and know people who have recently, be smart, aggressive and shop multiple dealers....throughout state and others as well
I love these two
This video did not really address used cars... What is a good rule of thumb on what to offer on a used car? Certainly it depends on the market conditions (supply vs. demand), but any general rules?
That's what I hate, they put all offers in, you go check it out and find out no offer available to me and price was a hoax, never visiting those places again
Great video discussion, what would you pay for a 2019 model in 2020 now? I'm able to find 2019 model still new and unsold. How much discount is expected to be fair?
Guaranteed that 2019 model doesn't exist in the dealers lot.
@@edsumil917 I saw a few dealers in my area still have new 2019 cars.
@@netman88 there is over 100 2019 fords f 150 various styles in my area and endless 2020s dust overed & 2021s on the way...
Lowkey flex with the cannondale in the back😅
What about used cars? I'm currently looking at 2017 model year, 3 yrs lease returns, so is KBB Trade in value + $1500 recon + a 5% profit margin a good place to start an offer on used cars?
Got my 2019 GLC 3 weeks ago. Certified used car from authorized dealer with 7,000 miles on board.
Listed price 45,900. Haggled back and forth, managed to get it for 41,800.
Sold my 2012 GLK privately at 16,000. That was 4,000 more than what dealer offered me for it.
My advice is try selling your old car privately, you will get a better deal than thru the dealer buy back program. They always under evaluate when buying and over price when selling.
Then go on a hunt for the model you want, haggle without shame, check other dealers, find the best offer then tell the others to beat that.
Kind of disappointing. Your title in capital letters claims info on Used cars as well ?
Ray. I’m looking at ordering king ranch 2022 from ford. What % off msrp should I expect on an 80,000 truck? Some dealers are at list plus 1000. Utah one dealer is msrp, no more. This Utah dealer says other ford dealers in Utah are at MSRP PLUS. Getting ready to order soon and want to make sure that my expectation Is appropriate as I negotiate price. Thx much. FYI I have only spoken to three dealers so far to in the Boise area and one in the Salt Lake area. As I travel for business I will be checking with other small town Ford dealers to see if they’re willing to earn some business
It’s crazy, cause I can’t even find a car for MSRP now with all these dealer adjustment rates
Great video guys. I am sorry but I did not get where to get the dealership invoice pricing, can you please tell me?
Thanks
Car dealers hate out the door prices or buying a car through your bank.by taking the bill of sale to your bank.dont let them send the paper work themselves . you as the buyer take it your self. if they do they make money out of it as the middle men.
Does the 6% on a $40,000 car hold true on used cars? Is the Kelley Blue Book Fair Market Range I see on autotrader accurate?
It's fine that car dealers make a fair profit margin but, if they didn't have a history of gauging and ripping off folks, I'm not surprised buyers try to get the best deal possible.
Great job guys!
Wonder if you can ask for the same % off on all makes. Like VW, Toyota, or Honda. I would think the more popular cars will have higher mark ups.
@9:55 Can y'all please make a video going more into depth with buying a car in December. Can I go in at 20% off msrp, how desperate are the sales people to get rid of 2020's, etc. I plan on buying a 2020 Camry during the last week of December. However I know exactly what color, trim and package I want. Should I be ready to compromise on one of those?
funny... on the last 4 cars I purchased I got between 4 and 6 K of MRSP the last 2 being over 5 OUT THE DOOR!!!! Cash and go on the these.
Have you Heard of Auto Boutique Used Cars? if so, Have you done deals with them? Would you use them?
They are in Columbus Ohio.
I think there is one in Florida.
Would I ask for the invoice price for a used vehicle that was traded in? I seen the infamous “A” at the end of the stock number and “GRT” at the beginning of it. Thanks to you guys’ previous video...I take notes 😉
I've strike out 5 different time making an offer just 2k less than the asking internet price. The dealers dont seems to budge at all from asking price. They all said that's their best offer.
wait 2 or 3 days, they will cal u .....
Show interest in a car via email
They will ask you to come in and look at it
Tell them your busy Do not give phone #
They will send you a bs offer of a few thousand off
Wait a few days and than respond kindly telling them thats too much $ for that car and you have been looking at other cars with great offers.
They will offer you the car for 20% off
Can easily get another 6% to 10% added to that 20%
Learn to time the emails right and what to say
Good luck
87442CUT BIGBLOCK455 what!? Up to 20-25% off??? You’re either a shark or you’re in a market where the dealers are willing to drop their trousers at the sound of a penny dropping
Just tell them you already have the offer they give you and ask if they can beat it.
If you can wait, then wait. good luck
Good stuff. I'm going to buy a new 4runner. This stuff won't fly on a Toyota 😢
6:33 but they do that with our trade ins lol
The car I want to buy is Honda CRV-EX. 30180msrp, 28408 invoice 581 holdback. Dealer cost 27792. What should I pay/offer on memorial day weekend?
Im trying to buy a new 2019 car msrp 44,300 and Im offering 40,000 before ttt- tax, title, tag. And the dealer only wants to discount 2,500. Ive been keeping touch with them since December and through all this coronavirus crap they haven’t dropped their price a dime.
Good information. thanks to you two.
Invoice price is different depending on brand. Not related to percentage at all. Tell me how I bought my Toyota Camry, new, with a 6.5k off of msrp...
Thinking about buying a used car through Carvana, should I buy from dealer instead. Regarding deals incentives etc.
I'm about to car shop with my own financing and I'm NOT desperate, so that helps me. But I'm torn over how much to make my offer. As built msrp is 32700 and dealer price as calculated on their website is 33500. Am I unrealistic to stick firm to 30500?