I really appreciate you using your time and energy to look into this and bring your always joyful attitude to the subject! No matter the outcome I appreciate you and the art community as a whole!
I really need a ray of light, this AI stuff really depresses me.. to the point that i feel no more motivation to keep drawing.. but this good sr comes and gives us some hope everytime! thats why Nathan is the man! thanks Nathan!
Thank you for taking the time to make another video! I'm also grateful for the initial video that had tackled a different topic. Those were some insights that I can take away and learn from.
I'm really curious how this protection can work. Right now ANYONE can pretty much just go to a specific artists website, get like 10-20 images (even low res screenshots are fine), and train the AI with the new data to copy that artist's style. The person that created the newly trained AI model can then freely share that to other users for no cost, and thats been kind of like the culture in this AI sphere. Someone trains on a popular artist i.e., SamDoesArts, then it's freely shared to the public. It's kind of like style piracy, since it's not really "theft" but a copy of the original and the original stays intact. I'd say it's unethical, but I don't see a proper way of dealing with it and singling out bad actors. If you then make your portfolio website have encrypted images, how will it differentiate prospective employers to AI data scrapers?
Great video, this actually transcends artwork. Imagine what could be done by unscrupulous actors with family photos posted on the Internet, videos, personal data, etc.
I wonder how long it will take for a lawsuit from one of the big players like Shutterstock that had their libraries appropriated and should have received royalties for using the images as well as the artists and photographers who uploaded the work.
@@bunnyfreakz Yea, I'm sure we would have heard something about it by now, more lightly Shtterstock will buy one of the AI, (if they havent already) but there is clear evidence that at least one of them used stock images without paying for them to tech the AI, so could be that they are just waiting for them to get big enough that they are worth sueing.
I'm wondering if this tool is actually going to work but skepticism aside I'm grateful this kind of solutions are been made, every contribution to help artist face this monster of AI is valuable, thank you very much.
I’ve taken your Schoolism classes, and just want to say thank you Nathan. I was wondering if I should pursue a career in VISDEV, and after listening to many takes I’ll still go for it. Best part is most of my art was never published online, which means going AI free
How comes that your videos never have subtitles? Is that a choice of yours? I love your soothing voice but I'm just too bad at English to understand your speech only by ear. I'd really appreciate to read what you say and get the full message you're sending.
the fact is the works already been stolen and the ai programmers show their lack of ethics in doing so. I still think the idea of allowing a selection of my images as a training model also unethical or devaluing as our value is not just the artwork but the design process and discussion behind it. I can see it being a fleeting trend or gimic as since their was no feeling and thought in the process it has this sort of uncanny valley feeling.
I thought it would be great to introduce a digital watermark maybe colour not visible to human eye, or a sound embedded in an image, kind of the reverse of oscilloscope music. Artists register with a central body or bodies and receive royalties if you approve its use like music per play streaming... but all artist should try to negotiate higher rates than what spotify pays lol
The technology sounds mysterious. I am sceptical it will do anything bit we'll see. For now posting low resolution work seems like the only defence. For me personally I never really had a personal style that I needed to protect because I'm not copied artist. In the future though it would be useful.
Sorry but the models get trained on 256x256 images, at least DALL-E 2 was. You can't thumbnail your images enough to simultaneously make them unusable for ML learning while having the people you want them to see still enjoy it.
@@marek_tarnawski which is a game humans can't win. Some unicorns will always prevail but the average artist, especially newcomers, can't not post. They're already going under in the myriad of posts and not posting at all is pretty much like a career death sentence. Posting only on your own website doesn't help either since common crawl is collecting data not only from big platforms. Regarding style I think generalists are definitely in a better position but again, that's going to be few people. I'm a generalist and I know just how much time it takes to become good enough in order to be economically feasible for client work. My guess is that professional art jobs will be only for those who can afford it. I'm in Germany, born into an upper middle class family. I have it so much easier to go through rough times like covid and even I am questioning deeply what my career as an artist can look like in the coming years and decades. The legal fights startig with github copilot will be interesting but depending on the outcome I can see a lot of doom for most artists coming their way.
@@LarsRichterMedia I know. I'm just thinking out loud. Seems like technology Nathan Fowkes is mentioning right now is the only possible defence (if it will work). It might need constant improvement to catch up with developers writing AI Generators. I am actually generalist as well. I work for mobile games and having style was never really my selling point but rather being able to adapt to a style while having strong foundation and design skills. Right now I am already considering all my options to adapt but it's hard to plan when every month the technology reaching new landmark. I know I can go towards being more of technical artist with knowledge of implementing into Unity. Other option is more specialized 3d as I lately got more in depth into Blender (Yeah I know AI is getting into 3d as well but it's still more complicated to imitate). There is also some promise in starting your own business when a lot of things will get automated. Maybe where art teams will be reduced to few people there will be also new companies growing made out of skeleton crew. And who knows how AI art will be approached in future. I already see there is oversaturation of images and the styles are repeating so because of quantity the whole medium will devalue itself. People will get bored and then only those who can innovate will come on top....
@@marek_tarnawski Thinking out loud together is exactly what we need to do! Regarding Nathan Fowkes mysterious cloaking technology: that honestly sounds more magical than the generative diffusion models themselves. We shall see. I do think that some smaller teams will absolutely ride this wave to success, no doubt. I plan to be part of such a team myself as I'm trying to build a collective of freelancers working together. The question to me is always how will it affect the whole of the industry / society. My gess is that less people will be able to work professionally because more use cases where an artist would be hired are now automated. The ones succeeding could see never before seen success and efficiency for such small groups. The current models and their outputs may become boring but as you said yourself, the tech is advancing at breakneck speed. To me the only way to truly protect professional artists trying to survive in a commercial landscape is regulation by the state. If companies know that they will get sued for commercially using Stable Diffusion in its current form, they won't take the risk. Not necessarily because of fines because that's just the "cost of doing business" but because of reputational damage.
Already existing works are stolen and that's enough for their goal. As said before, only solution is to sue them. But it will be hard because artists are poor and scattered by different counties. Music industry successfully lawyer-up because they were corporations that fought individuals, in out case it's the opposite.
lawsuit against Github copilot will be the first legal precedent set. We can only hope for the best right now and keep talking about this as much as possible. Luckily artists earn a lot of money and have tons of spare time to fight for their rights against techno overlords /s
Hey Nathan you art legend you. So Im taking this as good news. Ie. Im talking about your pretty serious reversal of position from the video a few days ago which has now been deleted. . I can only hope you looked into what some of the commenters had pointed out and have come to a more informed position on this very important issue. I wish you could tell us more about this Mysterious technology you mention. We have been exploring some ways to obfuscate art in our discord but so far nothing. Granted. We are art dorks and not Ai engineers. SO. grain of salt and all that. But i will remain optimistic that whatever this tech or technique you are mentioning works as eluded to. And also is not a FOR SALE type of hustle of any sort. And depending on the nature of what it is, If it is someting they are selling. that could be very disappointing . Again, really depends what it is and the value therein. The way i see it. People are either in this fight for what is right! Or simply more vultures circling the "death of Art". WIll keep an eye on this space for updates. Have a great one Cap'n
I looked back at that video Goth, which is temporarily on private. Wish you hadn't opened with an insult, I stopped there and didn't read. It was actually filled with useful info. I've had no position change though, I'll leave legislation and policy for others to pursue, I see grim possibility it can keep up with tech without creating devastating unintended consequences for artists. I've always said I have one limited POV and am enthusiastic for all possibilities to hit this thing from every angle. A few artists I love and admire are pursuing this and I support them. The tech I mentioned will be free, they've just asked for details to wait until they have all ducks in a row. And now that I've read all your comments thoroughly I do appreciate you and your push on this subject.
@@nfowkesart Hey Nathan. Thanks kindly for the reply. I had thought i opened with praise and at worst some lighthearted ribbing perhaps? ;) if it was not quite that... .My sincere apologies.... Perhaps when it comes to this topic i can perhaps be... prickly. even when i try not to be. Regardless. I would like to again express my respect and admiration for your skill and craft! Not to be understated. =) i do love your work. Your work on prince of egypt is simply stunning! I am very curious about the tech mentioned. I am hoping it is truly something that can be an asset in this crazy situation we have found ourselves in. I will keep an eye for updates. have a wonderful day Nathan! Again. apologies for any poo poo vibes. =)
this sounds like yet another post jumping in the ai hot topic bandwagon to get clicks and try to sell something.. besides that, "protecting" our "art" which is not as unique as we like to think, with some random (paid for) gimmick will do nothing, the ai will be fed with works from dead masters or others that are in the public domain so the problem of the exhistance of ai taking people's livelyhood is not going to go away when we get 0.000002 in royalties because our image has been sampled from a pool of billions of others.
I really appreciate you using your time and energy to look into this and bring your always joyful attitude to the subject! No matter the outcome I appreciate you and the art community as a whole!
I can feel the stress level going up in the first few seconds, even Nathan's getting anxiety from the full picture here
I really need a ray of light, this AI stuff really depresses me.. to the point that i feel no more motivation to keep drawing.. but this good sr comes and gives us some hope everytime! thats why Nathan is the man! thanks Nathan!
This background music is burned into my subconscious after your environment design workout
You are inspiring. I hope this cloaking tech improves and becomes widely available.
Thank you for taking the time to make another video! I'm also grateful for the initial video that had tackled a different topic. Those were some insights that I can take away and learn from.
Thanks for your contribution on this topic, Nathan. Much apreciated.
I'm really curious how this protection can work. Right now ANYONE can pretty much just go to a specific artists website, get like 10-20 images (even low res screenshots are fine), and train the AI with the new data to copy that artist's style. The person that created the newly trained AI model can then freely share that to other users for no cost, and thats been kind of like the culture in this AI sphere. Someone trains on a popular artist i.e., SamDoesArts, then it's freely shared to the public. It's kind of like style piracy, since it's not really "theft" but a copy of the original and the original stays intact. I'd say it's unethical, but I don't see a proper way of dealing with it and singling out bad actors. If you then make your portfolio website have encrypted images, how will it differentiate prospective employers to AI data scrapers?
Completely visible to anything other than machine learning process...
@@nfowkesart sounds promising :D
Great video, this actually transcends artwork. Imagine what could be done by unscrupulous actors with family photos posted on the Internet, videos, personal data, etc.
@nathanfowkes when will we hear about the solution mentioned in the video? Other than that your paintings are awesome
I wonder how long it will take for a lawsuit from one of the big players like Shutterstock that had their libraries appropriated and should have received royalties for using the images as well as the artists and photographers who uploaded the work.
interesting thought. i never considered that
Do not hold your breath if shutterstock endorse AI arts. Because Deviantart already doing that.
@@bunnyfreakz Yea, I'm sure we would have heard something about it by now, more lightly Shtterstock will buy one of the AI, (if they havent already) but there is clear evidence that at least one of them used stock images without paying for them to tech the AI, so could be that they are just waiting for them to get big enough that they are worth sueing.
I'm wondering if this tool is actually going to work but skepticism aside I'm grateful this kind of solutions are been made, every contribution to help artist face this monster of AI is valuable, thank you very much.
I’ve taken your Schoolism classes, and just want to say thank you Nathan. I was wondering if I should pursue a career in VISDEV, and after listening to many takes I’ll still go for it. Best part is most of my art was never published online, which means going AI free
Thank you ❤
How comes that your videos never have subtitles? Is that a choice of yours? I love your soothing voice but I'm just too bad at English to understand your speech only by ear. I'd really appreciate to read what you say and get the full message you're sending.
Just a comment to boost this in the algorithm. We need a regulatory solution but it’s useful for people to hear about more potential tools.
any update on this?
Curious but sceptical, I can't imagine any way you could achieve this without being circumvented.
Sounds like away forward and great you've doing something!
the fact is the works already been stolen and the ai programmers show their lack of ethics in doing so. I still think the idea of allowing a selection of my images as a training model also unethical or devaluing as our value is not just the artwork but the design process and discussion behind it. I can see it being a fleeting trend or gimic as since their was no feeling and thought in the process it has this sort of uncanny valley feeling.
Agree it might be to late unfortunately. Using the word "stolen" kinda funny tho lol
Why do you think artists are thieves when they learn off publicly available art? I highly disagree with you.
Nathan, are there any updates on this at the moment?
Google Glaze and Nightshade
Wow, very exciting.
Great news, thanks Nathan !
Wonderful, I can't wait.
At last some good news...
I thought it would be great to introduce a digital watermark maybe colour not visible to human eye, or a sound embedded in an image, kind of the reverse of oscilloscope music. Artists register with a central body or bodies and receive royalties if you approve its use like music per play streaming... but all artist should try to negotiate higher rates than what spotify pays lol
That’s a good News! Thank you! 😊
Ahhhhhh thank you for this 😭🙏
The technology sounds mysterious. I am sceptical it will do anything bit we'll see. For now posting low resolution work seems like the only defence. For me personally I never really had a personal style that I needed to protect because I'm not copied artist. In the future though it would be useful.
Sorry but the models get trained on 256x256 images, at least DALL-E 2 was. You can't thumbnail your images enough to simultaneously make them unusable for ML learning while having the people you want them to see still enjoy it.
@@LarsRichterMedia Ok. In that case not posting on the internet is the only option. Or abandoning style. Doing every new piece in different style.
@@marek_tarnawski which is a game humans can't win. Some unicorns will always prevail but the average artist, especially newcomers, can't not post. They're already going under in the myriad of posts and not posting at all is pretty much like a career death sentence. Posting only on your own website doesn't help either since common crawl is collecting data not only from big platforms. Regarding style I think generalists are definitely in a better position but again, that's going to be few people. I'm a generalist and I know just how much time it takes to become good enough in order to be economically feasible for client work. My guess is that professional art jobs will be only for those who can afford it. I'm in Germany, born into an upper middle class family. I have it so much easier to go through rough times like covid and even I am questioning deeply what my career as an artist can look like in the coming years and decades. The legal fights startig with github copilot will be interesting but depending on the outcome I can see a lot of doom for most artists coming their way.
@@LarsRichterMedia I know. I'm just thinking out loud. Seems like technology Nathan Fowkes is mentioning right now is the only possible defence (if it will work). It might need constant improvement to catch up with developers writing AI Generators.
I am actually generalist as well. I work for mobile games and having style was never really my selling point but rather being able to adapt to a style while having strong foundation and design skills. Right now I am already considering all my options to adapt but it's hard to plan when every month the technology reaching new landmark. I know I can go towards being more of technical artist with knowledge of implementing into Unity. Other option is more specialized 3d as I lately got more in depth into Blender (Yeah I know AI is getting into 3d as well but it's still more complicated to imitate). There is also some promise in starting your own business when a lot of things will get automated. Maybe where art teams will be reduced to few people there will be also new companies growing made out of skeleton crew.
And who knows how AI art will be approached in future. I already see there is oversaturation of images and the styles are repeating so because of quantity the whole medium will devalue itself. People will get bored and then only those who can innovate will come on top....
@@marek_tarnawski Thinking out loud together is exactly what we need to do! Regarding Nathan Fowkes mysterious cloaking technology: that honestly sounds more magical than the generative diffusion models themselves. We shall see. I do think that some smaller teams will absolutely ride this wave to success, no doubt. I plan to be part of such a team myself as I'm trying to build a collective of freelancers working together. The question to me is always how will it affect the whole of the industry / society. My gess is that less people will be able to work professionally because more use cases where an artist would be hired are now automated. The ones succeeding could see never before seen success and efficiency for such small groups.
The current models and their outputs may become boring but as you said yourself, the tech is advancing at breakneck speed. To me the only way to truly protect professional artists trying to survive in a commercial landscape is regulation by the state. If companies know that they will get sued for commercially using Stable Diffusion in its current form, they won't take the risk. Not necessarily because of fines because that's just the "cost of doing business" but because of reputational damage.
I like this shorter version better haha 😉
Already existing works are stolen and that's enough for their goal. As said before, only solution is to sue them. But it will be hard because artists are poor and scattered by different counties. Music industry successfully lawyer-up because they were corporations that fought individuals, in out case it's the opposite.
lawsuit against Github copilot will be the first legal precedent set. We can only hope for the best right now and keep talking about this as much as possible.
Luckily artists earn a lot of money and have tons of spare time to fight for their rights against techno overlords /s
Why do you think artists are thieves when they learn off publicly available art? I highly disagree with you.
Not hopeful, but here's hoping 🙏
Hey Nathan you art legend you. So Im taking this as good news. Ie. Im talking about your pretty serious reversal of position from the video a few days ago which has now been deleted. . I can only hope you looked into what some of the commenters had pointed out and have come to a more informed position on this very important issue.
I wish you could tell us more about this Mysterious technology you mention. We have been exploring some ways to obfuscate art in our discord but so far nothing. Granted. We are art dorks and not Ai engineers. SO. grain of salt and all that.
But i will remain optimistic that whatever this tech or technique you are mentioning works as eluded to. And also is not a FOR SALE type of hustle of any sort. And depending on the nature of what it is, If it is someting they are selling. that could be very disappointing . Again, really depends what it is and the value therein.
The way i see it. People are either in this fight for what is right! Or simply more vultures circling the "death of Art". WIll keep an eye on this space for updates. Have a great one Cap'n
I looked back at that video Goth, which is temporarily on private. Wish you hadn't opened with an insult, I stopped there and didn't read. It was actually filled with useful info.
I've had no position change though, I'll leave legislation and policy for others to pursue, I see grim possibility it can keep up with tech without creating devastating unintended consequences for artists. I've always said I have one limited POV and am enthusiastic for all possibilities to hit this thing from every angle. A few artists I love and admire are pursuing this and I support them.
The tech I mentioned will be free, they've just asked for details to wait until they have all ducks in a row. And now that I've read all your comments thoroughly I do appreciate you and your push on this subject.
@@nfowkesart Hey Nathan. Thanks kindly for the reply. I had thought i opened with praise and at worst some lighthearted ribbing perhaps? ;) if it was not quite that... .My sincere apologies.... Perhaps when it comes to this topic i can perhaps be... prickly. even when i try not to be.
Regardless. I would like to again express my respect and admiration for your skill and craft! Not to be understated. =) i do love your work. Your work on prince of egypt is simply stunning!
I am very curious about the tech mentioned. I am hoping it is truly something that can be an asset in this crazy situation we have found ourselves in. I will keep an eye for updates. have a wonderful day Nathan! Again. apologies for any poo poo vibes. =)
negotiating power? can you talk a little bit more about that please?
bro....anything a person can do AI will do better, faster - including hacking this 'solution'
Thanks!
this sounds like yet another post jumping in the ai hot topic bandwagon to get clicks and try to sell something..
besides that, "protecting" our "art" which is not as unique as we like to think, with some random (paid for) gimmick will do nothing, the ai will be fed with works from dead masters or others that are in the public domain so the problem of the exhistance of ai taking people's livelyhood is not going to go away when we get 0.000002 in royalties because our image has been sampled from a pool of billions of others.