How SSD Technology Keeps Getting WORSE! - Intel 660p Review
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- Опубліковано 11 лис 2018
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"It goes up exponentially!" - shows a perfectly linear chart
Hej på dig
I think the X axis was exponential, which made the plot itself linear. Will check again and edit this
Edit: you're right, that one is totally linear.
Look at it closely, it’s exponential, not linear, if they gave a bigger graph and number, you’ll be able to see it clearer
Complexity goes exponentially (2,4,8,16 states) computation on the other hand is dependent on number of bits (1,2,3,4 bits).
The problem is that he did not make this distinction clear.
I don't know what's worse: That the "exponential" curve on the chart is linear, or that the audio/video sync after the chart in messed up.
PC Building Simulator - $15
PC Parts Picker - Free
RightToArms yeah i mean pc building simulator required a lot more programming to be done
exw swag pc part picker is also very complex. It can compare compatibility between many parts, and even size based compatibility in some cases. I’m not arguing against you though, of building simulator makes sense or cost money, it’s a game.
@@user-im6jw5um9e "to the stupidity and beyond"
this actually real true human
Nichsa 89 ?
Because it's a video game...
i aint got time for 100 microseconds
You must be a busy man
hahha the irony. thanks
just your 2 cents i guess
GODDAMNIT do you know how many microseconds I have wasted reading this?
Ikr right, who would buy the 660p, defo not me...
Would be interesting to see a review of the Intel H10 SSD which is a combo of the 660p and an Intel Optane module on one M.2 SSD. The Optane memory is kind of used as a cache as well which might make up for the QLC SSD.
wow its halo's general heed
Just buy a better drive to begin with
My laptop came with a H10 32GB Optane/512Gb. Crystal Disk says it's faster than a evo 970
@Anders Scott bruh that’s creepy
This was a great example of what LTT does best - simplify extremely complex topics to be understandable to the normal consumer, while remaining interesting and in-depth enough for even advanced users, and giving a comprehensive and useful conclusion for all viewers.
Amazing stuff, this is why I love your work.
You left out "entertaining". I love Linus' presentations.
extremely complex huh
MisterPikol Whilst I find this stuff fairly simple, it's not hard to comprehend that people not working with it constantly will not. Much like Linus said in the last WAN show about phone users
This was a great example of name placement.
@@MisterPikol watch a episode of "nexus" reviews, the guy is hard core, great channel too if u want in depth discriptions, Linus is more for casual people who dont care about specifics and just want to know enough to make a decision to buy or not.
I actually really like the format of this video, and feel something should be said about it. The combination of being visually met with a person as well as explanatory images was done very well and very smoothly, I didn't feel that either aspect was over or underdone. I believe that the topic range of your videos can be more diverse and extensive with the inclusion of more of these kind of videos; not that I believe they should all necessarily be done this way. Great video!
Agreed. The editor of this video should be kept an eye on for promotion to a more senior position.
@surfitlive haha, this made my day
I agree in a way he explains the pros and cons while still putting a bit of salt on Intel and explain exactly how they did it and who this product is for. For me perfect for my itx build just for games. Perfect while it still has the same os/game loading speed as a crucial mx500
@surfitlive u smart guy lol
I think we found Linus' burner.
was considering this for my laptop's empty second nvme slot
I thought "oh no, back to searching"
but after watching the whole video, i think it'll be just fine for my steam folder
For a secondary drive, it should be fine.
@@cmdrnachoman5864 I'm considering one to replace both of my GL703VD's drives. One is a 256 GB M.2 (SATA3), the other is a 1 TB HDD.
@@cmdrnachoman5864 what about a boot drive with like 400gb of program files/games
@@bamcameback It would work, but you could probably get one just as cheap, or cheaper which performs better. Do you need a M.2 one specifically, or would a 2.5" SATA do the job, if so, they are probably better value.
Mac owners can only dream about having the option of installing a second drive. Or, in fact, being able to swap out their storage at all. Or, for that matter, having a decent Steam experience.Being inferior in just about every way, this is why they are so much cheaper.
Oh, wait.
"Intel not known for their aggressive pricing" *screams in CPUs*
Nahh Intel doesn't scream in cpu... They scream in 14 nanometers
Man if they pull of 7 nm people will shit a brick as they take back the market but due to Moore's Law CPUs will slowly lose their ability to get faster as transistors get smaller
@@Aragon1500 they arnt going to 10nm till 2021 by what quite a bit of people say. but staying at 14nm isnt going to get you any extra preformance. you can only push a node so far
@@albino_gringo1912 English is hard for some people....
High prices is not aggressive pricing, low pricing is.
This is a very informative video. I was wondering why some modern SSDs were being sold as consumer products. This is making perfect sense as to how they are making NAND flash storage less expensive over time. I would still use that Intel 660p drive for storing files like games, 4k movies, music, etc...
Thank you, Linus and team for this very informative video.
thank you linus very cool
Yep, it sounds like these drives are fine as long as you are not as Linus put it 'slamming' the hard drive insisting on writing the peak amount of data write every second of every single day.
Let us be real here: SSD's are not about being able to write things to them 24/7/365. That is a regular old hard drives or a specialized enthusiast SSD's limelight.
These are for people who want drives that:
1. Will pretty much last forever under the average use case.
2. Will keep your data on it near forever under average use case.
3. Is faster than a regular hard drive under average use case.
It's more like those NVME drive could be used for office use !
@Mohammad Taher I like your thinking about this. As an office storage drive for faster read and writes of small to medium files. Yup, this 660P drive would probably be perfect.
@Mekronid and wooudo. You two got into a great conversation there. I am glad you shared this space here. I do remember a lot of that technology as well. Truthfully, I was never a fan of CD/DVD/Blu-Ray, technologies. I have and always prefer digital mediums or streaming services. Thankfully, we have choices to locally store media via Hard Drives, spinning media, or to a cloud service of our choice.
Thank you all for the inputs you have added here. Well, done.
While the argument that 5 years of warranty gives you a peace of mind is reasonable at first glance, it is not entirely solid.
What gives peace of mind is backing up your data. A drive without data is just an empty, disposable thing. The data is what's truly valuable.
Backup your data no matter what!
@@nath042 Just moving the data to external drives is a million times better than not duplicating it anywhere at all. So your argument is not exactly solid, if I'm honest. It is better to have the data duplicated in multiple locations, surely, but it's not the only way of doing things.
@@nath042 Oh, I see. Thank you for the clarification.
@@nath042 Bro I've lost so many memories with my best friend who killed himself at the age of 16... So many movie like memories... Fucking sad. Nothing will ever compare to that. I always back my stuff now. Always.
I put my data on hard drive while only system and program on ssd
Which is I think everyone doing atm
@@nath042 TWO IS ONE! ONE IS NONE! Backup your data in AT LEAST 2 locations ASIDE from your primary drive.
the way Linus emphasizes his words is perfect, it makes it easier for my brain to understand the complex things he's talking about
$200 in amazon for the 2tb now is insane value though
I just ordered the 1tb for $95. No brainer for a light-duty gamer such as myself.
Edit: 2 weeks of daily use and it is very quick. Using it as a boot drive with whatever game I happen to have installed. Longest part booting up is the bios splash screen and in games good luck reading the tips in a loading screen.
I got one. I hope I don't regret it...
Just bought one as well, arriving tomorrow
@@roadrage212 thanks for sharing your experience . i've buy a ssd last week (samsung 860 QVO at 100€ ) without knowing a thing about QLC and other type of ssd
Now i know that QLC (my ssd is a QLC 3D type) , is not a great one , but it seem okay .
i wish i've seen this video earlier : )
I’m also in the same boat... was waiting for the Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB but it has been delayed, and then I realised the Intel 660p 2TB is about 2/3 of the price... given I’m not a heavy user and it’s just to help me keep my Steam library with me and photos (but not heavy R/W everyday), I’m debating if this is a better option at circa $400 AUD vs. $600 AUD for the 970 Evo Plus.
This video was very well done. I remembered reading some article about slc ssds being superior to the multi celled ones, and this video cleared up all my confusion surrounding that.
In terms of reliability and endurance yes, but from what I’ve read and from personal experience MLC is pretty reliable too.
But do you wanna pay 200 $ for 120 GB? SLC is more expensive to produce and you get less storage per drive
For Enterprise purposes, SLC and even MLC will be used if Optane isn't. However for the average user, these denser storage options will be just fine. Once upon a time a SSD took the entire shell of a 3.5" drive. Now when you crack one open, it looks like a shorter M.2 drive. That's thanks to multi-tiered storage. Eventually they'll reach a limit and instead have to improve caching or how data is stored altogether.
I watched the video and still do not understand your comment lol. Is there an SSD's for morons out there?
@James Oren: Are you looking for information on the architecture of them, or a buyer's guide?
In the near future everything will be:
How fast is it?
It depends.
Well how big is it?
Well it changes its size.
WTF? What can you tell me for a fact?
Well it cost a lot.
How much?
Well it depends...
brain programming using lights forcing you to buy products
@@johnjonjhonjonathanjohnson3559 well, it depends
Underrated comment.
No worries, the only ones that can do that are Apple and maybe Nvidia to its fans, all others have sufficing competition to be bullied into being baseline pro-consumer.
Tell about life?
It depends...
"Progress bar going backwards"
A typical file: I don't feel so good
Just for kicks, they should have included a magnetic HDD for comparison. He keeps saying "slower than a hard drive". I want to see how much slower.
You can look closely at the benchmarks when he's talking about cache flush he shows the drop from 1210 MB/s max read speed to 64 minimum, so slower than a hard drive which would likely be 100+ (150-200 for enthusiast: "Seagate has branded the new actuator technology as "Mach.2" and set a new record for a single hard drive with 480 MB/s of sequential throughput, which is more than twice the standard 235 MB/s of the speediest 7,200-RPM enterprise HDDs.")
My 2TB Barracuda does somewhere around 130MB/s sustained, so a bit over half of that. Having said that, I also have the 256GB 660p as my OS drive, and it's frickin snappy considering it was like $140 more than 2 years ago.
@@morosis82 man its crazy to compare m.2 prices over the past couple years. you payed $140 for 256gb 2 years ago and that was probably a pretty good deal at the time and now we can get a 1TB drive from the same product line for 2/3 of that.
@@atdurard yeah, it was an absolute steal at the time, and despite the conclusion of this video at the time it was great value for its performance.
@@atdurard YEAH MAN! I want to get one but when is the next price drop on them! GOD DAMN I'll prolly wait for black Friday.
Finally, hard drives are faster than an SSD!
Wait what?
ROTFLOL! Thanks!
TessellatedGuy HDDs dip in performance too. Random writes on a HDD could drop it down to 20 mbs or worse
@@gareginasatryan6761 Yeah, no kidding. But then that makes perfect sense, given the mechanics of a hard drive. Assuming the drive isn't fragmented, if you're writing a single large file the drive gets to perform a single seek operation to find the starting point, then write continually, with at most the odd tiny repositioning of the head when it needs to change which track it's reading. (or the even smaller transition between different read/write heads).
When writing lots of small files, unless the OS organises them to be contiguous on the drive, it will need to seek to the new position, write a file, seek to the new position, etc.
The shorter the files, the more time is spent seeking. And a read head seek is an operation measured in milliseconds, if not hundreds of milliseconds, which is an absolute eternity to a computer. So you might find the drive spends as much as half it's time getting in position to write the next file, but not actually writing anything, if not a lot more. (depends on the exact filesize - practical tests with file fragmentation show that defragmentation doesn't matter much past chunks of about 64 megabytes, which also gives a reasonable idea of where the transition between what would be considered a 'large' and 'small' file would be in practice...)
Quite frankly, I never thought that my WD Velociraptor was slow. I know it is not the fastest but better than most other drives that are not SSDs. I got a Silicon Power S55 240 GB drive in my laptop and it is also pretty good. I might get one more for my desktop. I already have 32 GB of ram and an FX 8350.
Ye, and the 1Tb 660p costs as much as a 8Tb hdd
16 voltage levels? We're getting close to analog SSDs bois
True Valve storage!
@@MrMediator24 false, true, cat, isotope, box... Tall goat
inb4 This Analogue SSD Stores Pristine Audio From Vinyls (Take A Listen)
Retro style ! :)
ILC (Infinite Level Cell) SSDs with built-in A/D conversion
Good video man, I was wondering about QLC memory for a couple of days with the same worries... thanks for clearing everything up (Y).
what did you end up going for?
Another issue that comes with increased density and is aggravated by multilevel cells is adjacent cell disturbance. This increases the requirements for error correction which also slows performance. Many enterprises SSDs have hardware ECC engines doing things like BCH or LDPC to solve this problem. Consumer drives that pick this task up with fimware take on quite a workload. Also higher end SSDs use DRAM for a cache which is much faster than using some NAND in SLC. This way you are not using your NAND channels for cache communications.
Not sure how it was 8 months ago, but many new SSDs use both. About 512MB to 1GB of DRAM cache and also using part of the capacity as SLC, because why shouldn't it be used as faster SLC if the capacity is not being used right now.
5:27 No sabía que hablabas español.
Snazzy Labs can someone translate this for me
“I didn’t know that Linus was a crab people.”
Neato burrito
@@joshuacardenas7956 the good translation : " I didnt knew you speak spanish"
lolllllllllllll :DDDD
Time to upgrade from floppys!
Welcome to the back to future (1990's)
What's a floppy grandpa?
Nonsense! Tyvek still has a future!
John Galt kek, yeah, sorry, but I’ll stick to my 512 byte floppy disk and stick with my pentium one and voodoo GPU.
Come on! No one will ever need more than 1.44 MB, 3.5" HD.
In today’s world, the 660p is the best price per GB NVMe drive you can get.
Yea right now on amazon its like what 170 bucks, you cannot go wrong with a purchase like that
Jacob Roland I saw it for ~50$ for 500GB, ~100$ for 1TB and ~200$ for 2TB, making it as cheap, if not cheaper than most SATA SSDs
@@nulossul9526 why not just get a Corsair mp510, it's 50$ more for nearly double the speed.
KIMI Because I’m taking about price per GB, not speed.
@@nulossul9526 I guess Intel 660p is better than Samsung 860 EVO for pure gaming now, am I right ?
I have the 600p as my OS and main game drive, and I have to admit I'm 100% satisfied with the performance.
Same, already have it for 8+ months. Still powerful and fast.
how is it holding up now? im thinking of going for it, or maybe i should go for a fast sata ssd, any ideas?
@@mystic-edits9646 Go for it! I have mine since september 2019, yet no issues at all!! I have 70gb space left, I need another SSD asap 😂
Snewo Productions oh your ssd is nearly full, doesnt that slow performance down a lot though? Also are you using it for operating system or games or?
@@mystic-edits9646 Not at all! I'm using this SSD for everything and everything works perfectly fine and it's fast! I came from a laptop with a HDD storage, so any upgrade was great as you would notice the loading time (OS, games, etc.) difference between a HDD and a SSD!
The load times of my games are still the same as when the SSD was less empty!
Pff who needs SSDs when you have floppy drives
I can still fit tons of save games on my zip disks
RaptorG bruh who needs floppy drives when you've got punch cards
I have a blue one, it contains a 2 second midi compression of all star by smash mouth KappaHD
Floppy drives? Punch cards? Levers? Pneumatic valves FTW!! :D
Who needs floppies when you have The Selectron Tube?
Damn...I expected a weird intro...I am disappointed..
Excellent video. Very informative, I learned a lot for about SSDs that I thought at the start
Well, you want cheap high capacity ssds.
That's how that works.
Single cell terabyte ssds would otherwise be unaffordable and we'd prolly go back towards 3.5 inch drives eventually
Slower/cheaper cost for manufacturer and they charge HIGHER prices..
Aris Tormreported
Yeah, because the SLC drives were 128GB. TLC drives are 1-2TB. QLC is probably going to go to 4TB+. Why? Because they're smashing more and more of these things into a device. QLC is more expensive per module, you just need fewer modules. But you're not really getting fewer modules, instead you're getting the same number with the size benefits of doing that.
Yes, 4/3 of 1-2 is 4+, great math.
The problem about all that will be that QLC and TLC will not be staying on the market (consumer) as two separate product lineups, but TLC will be discontinued slowly because QLC offers either higher profits for the manufacturer or a lower price in order to saturate the market more. Same with MLC and TLC which is just sad: The 860 PRO is the only viable MLC model left.
I bought a single 860 Pro 4TB SSD to replace my mirrored 3TB HDDs.
With the samsung magician software turbo, it reads/writes at 5000.
and that's with it at 80% capacity full. (given I have 32GB of DDR3 RAM as cache)
@@KevinFelker excuse me as I am kind of an idiot, but did you set up your ram to work as the 860's cache, or is that simply the amount of ram you have on your computer? I'd assume just simply having the Ram on your computer wouldn't make your 860 Pro faster, but again I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff.
@@USACorrupted It's simply the sum of my RAM sticks.
The Samsung Magician software is where the magic happens. It creates a buffer using you RAM, so naturally the more RAM you have spare, the more room it has to maintain a buffer.
It can only do it on a single Samsung SSD in your system.
For example, I have a 1TB Samsung (for my OS) and a 4TB Samsung. Since the Samsung Magician software it a process that starts at windows boot, it won't accelerate my boot, so I applied it to my 4TB drive that I have all my games and movies stored on.
So true, this needs to be pinned.
No, MLC and TLC will still be used for higher-end SSDs.
We could use more videos like this team. Super love these and miss them.
9:20 While 100GB per day is a lot that probably doesn't include write amplification. Considering how much caching is going on it may be significant. Also there are more data using programs, Chrome for example writhes at 0.5MB/s constantly when running.
do you wouldnt recommend the 660p?
"Intel's not generally known for their aggressive pricing".
Laughs in 2700X that's $200 cheaper than the 9900k.
and only 15% slower, 9900k is awful value
@@jm036 Nice name bro
@@jm036 I just gave your comment a thumbs up based on your UA-cam user name. I'd give your comment a thumbs up, too, but it'll only allow me to give one thumbs up. WTF? I have *two* thumbs? Damnit, us two-thumbed people have *rights* you know! Christ Almighty, there has to be a second way to give a thumbs up for those of us who have two thumbs! *I will have justice*!
I'm guessing you mean the AMD 2700x? And BTW for whoever like AMD Newegg.com is selling the AMD 2700 for $229 until 11/25
@@jm036 here in Germany/Austria the Ryzen 2700x Costs less then 300 Euro the 9900k Costs 600 Euro+ so 15% more power but for 100% more price
0:23 Wtf is that
SSDs come in MLC or TLC. Picture is of girl group TLC which has most notable songs "No Scrubs" and "Waterfalls"
Spice Girls
Atomic Kitten
TLC
No one. That's who.
Still happy with my 860 Evo 1TB..
About a year ago, I ended up at a symposium listening to a talk on the SSD "write cliff" that hits when the drive nears full capacity. Basically, the memory is divided into sectors that can contain multiple bits of information. The example the speaker used was a 4-bit sector. Each sector can only be written to if it is empty, but not all data will use an even number of these sectors, with a lot of data taking up only half or less of the total sector capacity. Once the drive runs out of empty sectors, it has to start moving things around to fill the gaps in the partially used sectors (writing all the data at once) in order to free up the space to continue the actual write. This slows the drive down significantly, since most of its actual read/write capabilities are taken up by internal operations. Since you need specifically designed data to fit perfectly on your drive, you will always hit this write cliff at some point, but most drives are designed to mitigate this by constantly performing garbage collection to shift things around for optimal arrangement.
*_this post was made by the hard disk gang_*
This post comes to you courtesy of the SSD paired with a hard disk gang.
if you love life back off the hard disk gang boi
????????
That HAMR tho
@Sam Don't make me whip out my WANG drive now... No "floppy" stuff or 3.5" limits here!
TLC Don't go chasing waterfalls lol
MLC for me. Pricing has come down to the point MLC SSDs are very affordable.
Exactly this sound exactly like what Kingston did with their SSD's. When they were using High-quality controllers and baited and switched them after all the good yields ran out of the flash. So they had to swap back to really low-quality flash and they covered it up by swapping controllers. After doing research, I have no clue what independent research or Independent validation of claims they did before laying it on thick. Because everything they said in the beginning and at the end doesn't make any sense with the results. If it is worse performance than a hard drive. How is it supposed to outlast a hard drive? I have a 1 TB Seagate Barracuda hard drive that I had for 8 years and I have written countless terabytes to it and blanked it completely out, And it still averages 195MB/s
sustained writes and reads to. I use it for an Adobe cache and for games that I'm currently not playing but I rather not uninstall. Moreover, from my research, the latency is so ridiculous on these drives that it almost seems emulated like Intel coded these drives to have this much latency on actual tasks executed. It doesn't matter about the read and writes speed when the latency is 990 ms during loads of a normal person for comparative response time for system usage and if you just start moving files over without doing anything else the latency will be 23ms for the system. So I can only imagine on hardware that is not the greatest, how lagtastic of experiences this will be.
Is a Samsung 860 Evo TLC V-Nand based SSD safe to store semi-important files? Would it last longer than a standard 1TB WD Blue?
@@Phambleton Why would it not be safe? Samsung is one of many reputable SSD brands, so it's about as safe as it gets. Whether it will outlive a HDD is virtually impossible to answer, as SSD and HDD lifespans degrade entirely differently. Generally speaking though, today's SSDs can outlive HDDs. HDDs do however often take some time to die (while giving weird behavior or partially losing data) before they actually die.
As always though, if you don't like to wake up to a dead drive and lose these 'semi-important files', back them up. SSD or HDD, or any other media... they can always fail, and there are other possible ways to lose data too. like a house fire or robbery.
LMFAO good one! like the girl band xD
I have the 1 TB 660p and I was aware of these shortcomings. I just use it for my game library exclusively since those are more read heavy. Works well enough!
This was the most informative explanation of SSD tech that I've ever seen. Thanks!
So you will buy optane now?
@@andreasosowski7302 My laptop came with it (1tb) lmao
@@TsunaXZ you mean 1 TB HDD + intel optane
@@rishirajsaikia1323 No the default was 1TB optane with extra slot. I've added 2TB firecuda sshd afterwards.
No, but I sure am
oof
You can't just use self-deprecation for all your video comments, bruh.
Yeah kREmit, Kermit is still doin pretty good
One of the best videos from LTT overall.
Kudos to Linus, Ivan, Alexandre, Brandon & everyone else involved in making this!
Thanks for this video. Very summarized and informative
This is the kind of in-depth review that every system builder appreciates and needs!
no! it's not "WORSE"....it's good and cheap!
Oh God no. It has amazing value/money! The endurance still is more than good enough for 99.99% of the consumers... This is the ideal ssd to just skip the hdd in your system! And still way more reliable than hdd's. And if you're still paranoid. Just get a 970 evo plus as main drive and use this one as second drive!
4:36 that doesn't seem like an exponential graph, more like a linear one
My thoughts exactly
But I guess he was talking that it'll increase exponentially after we increase the cache by a lot, idk
it's actually logarithmic vs the number of states, qlc stores 16 states (4 bits) on one cell, tlc 8 states, mlc 4, and slc 2 (0 or 1).
I can actually chime in with my own experience using the 660p for about two months now. I bought two of the 512GB drives to put in RAID 0 (that was the only size available at launch). They've been absolutely excellent for me (gaming, videos, programming, and mild file transferring are my use cases) and are showing an average of 14% speed decline on benchmarks at 62% full vs. 2% full when I first installed the system. Boot times are near instantaneous and have been the whole time. If you're a serious enthusiast looking for the best performance you can find, or you use your drives hard, these may not be for you, but for my more casual purposes, they've been absolutely excellent so far.
>Boot times are near instantaneous
WHAT
@@flameshana9 That one is, admittedly, not all on the drives, the motherboard has a fast boot setting that works wonders to avoid long POST times. Also I may have exaggerated a tiny bit for effect. It's actually about 1-2 seconds.
I picked one up over Black Friday. The 2TB for $250 couldn't believe my luck. Then I see this video...
But I don't plan to write 50+GB every day. Boot LITERALLY takes 6 seconds from the POST screen, and it's unbelievably fast at loading games and software. And this is coming from someone who was using 4 SSD's in raid 0 since 2013.
Are you using a PCIE adapter? I don't know too many boards with two m.2 slots.
@@UnrealZii ASRock Z370 Pro4 is the board I used. It's getting more common these days to have two M.2 slots, there were other options on that front as well.
I wouldnt use QLC, i'd only use it as an OS and APPs that don't write data much.
Literally 0.1% of users do full drive write. Also, how many time any of us are moving around their 250Gb+ Steam folder? Once in their life? The fact is, the 660p is the perfect balance of performance and cost for the 99.9% of us. It reached the "good enough" level of performance with enormous 2TB capacity at a ridiculously low price. The fact is a regular user/gamer will NEVER see the difference between 660p and an SSD 2 time the price with half the capacity. The only metric that truly matter is 4k 1T 1Q and with that profile, all SDD are practically equal in performance.
I need your help what should I get this 660p Intel ssd or Samsung Evo 860 250 gb Iam building a gaming pc
@@clemmonkaufmann1489 660p
What if I just love moving large folders between partitions, in addition every month I copy huge backup files. My music, video, games library is close to 3tb of data. Therefore, this ssd is junk//
Ironically I'm watching this video because I move 30-150GB of Steam games between my HDD and SSDs every so often. I need more SSD storage to hold all of the games I play seasonally. Currently have 330GB of SSD space. A 660p would fit my needs perfectly.
Thank you!
Yeah, when you mentioned device life being lower.... first thing I thought was "yeah, but what is it for a real user?"
not too important for end users
so this is a good nvme then?
@@mystic-edits9646 yes!
4:40 audio/video out of sync at this point? Feels like it too me at least.
Yea, looks like it went out of sync at that point.
maggru91 looks like ADR to me
I thought I was seeing things with the audio sync issue lol.
It's a subtle joke about latency, guys ;)
The videos was rendered using this drive hehehe.
4:33 you just said its exponential. The graph is clearly linear...
Complexity is exponential (number of states), computation is linear (dependent on number of stored bits)
4:33 You should have wrote this the meme way....
_When you say exponential, but the graph is clearly linear_
Lol look at you not understanding how it's exponential! 😂😂😂 Listen to what he says carefully and you'll understand
the type of person to only "read" books with pictures, but doesnt care about what the book itself says.
It's the number of states that is exponential. 2 for SLC, 4 for MLC, 8 for TLC, and 16 for QLC.
Awesome video! I’ve got a few 760p drives in various systems and they’ve been great. Microcenter has a 512gb on sale right now and might pick up a few more.
I can agree on all parts of the movie. I specificly bought this for my laptop to replace the slow 2TB HDD in it. The intent was to store data ("data grave") and games only. All other stuff like programs or the OS are on a Samsung Pro SSD. There is pretty much only a read-action on it and its soooo much faster than before on the HDD. I will eventually do the same step on my desktop, but only for games (2 TB QLC SSD) and buy a (smaller ~4TB) HDD instead of the current 6 TB monster HDD.
I put a couple SSD's into Raid 0 about Six years ago and never looked back. I miss having to wait on loading screens, you learn more about a game with those 'loading screen tips'.
Your processor still has to parse the information, so there would still be loading times unless you had a massive overclock.
@@compjelly Well loading times arn't completely gone unless its an older game like NeverWinter Nights; They are to short to read the tips or enter in cheat codes like for MK9. Also the upgrade was from a none raided traditional mechanical drive to Raid 0 SSD's so as you can imagine the speed upgrade was insane.
It cost me $191.99 for each 250gb SSD at the time, $383 total (6.3 Years ago)
Or you could just get a Samsung 860 Evo TB for $12 less...
Isn't the 660p faster as it's pci-e instead of sata? I went with the 660p because some benchmarks showed it loading things a sata SSD would load in half the time such as booting and some game maps. Half the time isn't much real time though still being seconds of difference.
Carlos Giovani that’s true actually, however, I think depending on the use case, it doesn’t really matter. Especially if you are writing a lot, then a Samsung would be better. Since it has a longer endurance, even if it’s just a little more
That's what I use. Samsung 860 Evo 500mb. Besides vnand and read/write I can't find specs though, even on its spec sheet.
Great drive though. Zero complaints.
This thread sponsored by Samsung
Today, yes. Next year, QLC will be correspondingly cheaper than TLC.
I gotta say, I love this channel especially for videos like this (well, that and some of the office shenanigans or Linus making a silly project). Well done.
My Crucial P1 uses the same flash, but more dram and such, and in the 1TB capacity for everyday use it's fast as hell, never runs out of cache. For sort of regular desktop use, and gaming.
I really appreciate the in depth, technical part about how SSD's function.
I think it's more geared towards smartphones where you have even fewer writes, and high density is most important.
Ymi_Yugy true.
I do believe QLC will become the new entry level for PC SSDs, honestly. With MLC no longer being mainstream but 'enthusiast' grade now.
@@HazewinDog mlc has to stay around.
Really good video with some actual nuanced opinion.
Thanks!
I want to know if it's better at smaller transactions like while a program is running.
Considering the point of QLC (or at least should be) is getting larger drives down in price to make HDDs unnecessary even in budget situations, I find this sub-HDD performance unacceptable. It was ok back in the Intel X25-M with the small sizes, but if I am getting a 1TB SSD and imaging a 500GB-1TB HDD over to it as an upgrade, why on earth would I tolerate the SSD being the bottleneck?! Out of principle, I share Linus' discomfort... just... no. 200MB/s minimum sequential write speed on a large SSD or GTFO.
And then, we have the Adata's SX8200... performance-wise, this thing takes a giant dump on all other budget SSDs on the market for the same price. QLC SSDs need another generation to be worthy. Only 1TB plus, 200MB/s minimum seq. write, and significant savings vs TLC.
You misunderstand the point slightly: This isn't something to be fixed with time - It is an inherent flaw with adding additional memory layers: As shown by the delay increase linus showed being 25 microsec per added layer
@@bengrogan9710 False. This IS something that will be fixed with time. Increased parallelism (made possible by dropping the sub-TB capacities), combined with upcoming iterations of QLC, WILL improve sequential write speeds, as is ALREADY evident when you compare the 512GB models to the 1TB models.
I believe you have misunderstood MY point. There should be no performance benefits to owning a HDD over an SSD at this point. 100 microsecond latency on QLC vs 25 on SLC is neither here nor there when comparing to a HDD. If you are using a HDD or a QLC SSD for your main drive, anyway, with tons of hot data, you are doing it wrong. Big drives are often used for big transfers. There is no place for 100MB/s transfer speeds in a world where transfers can be measured in terabytes.
Well their 1TB SSD is $166 and the 512GB is $90. That's $60-100 cheaper than current drives and is insane considering it's Intel. I'd imagine Samsung or other manufacturers can nearly cut that price in third or half when they deploy similar tech. At that point for a drive/workload that doesn't require a ton of writing I can see this having potential. Only time will tell.
@@sergeantnathan6152 4 times the access latency per bit is far beyond the threshold of "Neither here nor there" as this video demonstrates.
The Samsung 970 pro for is a good example of this as it uses MLC rather than TLC specifically to avoid the issue shown in stark daylight here
But feel free to point me to which of the 4 levels of parallelisms that will somehow abate a quadrupling of access latency, which the drive manufacturers evidently don't see as they simply add a cache to push the issue outside of the most common use cases
Simply putting claims in BLOCK CAPITALS doesn't lend any credibility.
And as for There should be no benefit to a HDD over an SSD, I'm sorry for you being so far up yourself as to think that SSDs are some sort of dream technology with no drawbacks - Reality doesn't work that way
@@habirton While I would never pay out of pocket for the 512GB, I WOULD get swayed by the 1TB for the right price, for a specific use: games drive. Especially when empty, the transfer from the existing drive will transfer at full speed for a good chunk of the games. After that, sequential doesn't matter so much, as my internet connection will only be 300Mb/s (38MB/s... although gigabit internet users might be held back SLIGHTLY... that is if Steam's servers can feed it fast enough). But it's still a tough sell with the SX8200 being just a little bit more (which I already bought, so it's just for client systems now). We'll see how Black Friday changes things.
One of the better videos in a while! Thanks for all the info, the difference between quality levels of SSD's has been pretty mysterious to me
9:15 I love this editor. lol
Excellent job explaining!!
I usually like Linus but he missed the mark here: these drives are NOT meant to replace traditional NVME storage for editing and working on large files. Rather, they are designed to replace traditional SATA drives for things like boot drives and game storage. In other words, these drives are not designed for 90% of the use cases he brought up. Seriously at the time of this comment Intel's 660p drives are actually cheaper than most 2.5 inch SATA drives, which is kinda ridiculous.
Garrett Henze what SSD is good for work then i dont get it
@@nocodenoblunder6672 Samsung Evo 970 for example. Basically the NVME SSDs that use SLC or MLC instead of QLC like the 660p
He literally made half of the video talking about it
Make a video comparing budget SSD’s
Very helpful. Thank you.
Sweet, bought one of these on November 10th... and then I watch this today. Sounds like it should be ok for what I'm using it for though.
In order to correctly judge the value of 660p, we should consider not only the price but also its low heat and low idle power consumption.
What power consumption? What heat? For pretty much all drives, the difference is going to be minimal.
After getting realistic, lets get more realistic, and after that, even more realistic.... say whaaaaat ?
I like it how in the hard drive platter animation, there is the same amount of bits per angular degree. So basically at the same angular velocity, the amount of data read by the head at any given position is the same :))
I have a 2 tb 650p in my machine, has running with no issues at all for 2 years now.
My Samsung Evo 850 has 3 years and I didn't even hit the 100 TBs. And it's life expectancy it's of 150 TBW. Let's be honest, the 660p it's an optimal choice for most who don't write 100GBs per day.
100GBs per day? That's a lot for each day.
"I guess that's okay. Even if it makes me uncomfortable."
Nice video. The only thing missing is underwear.
This video explains a lot. My Zephyrus was equipped with 660p and I was wondering why it was slower when moving big files for long duration. Will using latest Samsung EVO makes a big jump in performance?
Need more of these videos.
Linus: This SSD sucks
The Laptop Industry: Its already inside
Except it doesn't suck. Nor does he claim it does. I can have all my games, including CoD, on an SSD just because i could buy a 2TB nvme qlc ssd on a sale for a price of 512GB samsung one (that hardly ever goes on a sale, coz it's a shiny samsung one).
It's not suck as he say... QLC are good for if you are going get archives files (only read), and still it's 200TB write show me a guy who can in normal descop use write 200TB of storage in 5y.
AND FOR LAST he use they workload as a exemple... THEY ARE IT COMPANY!!!
@@moonik665 I am downloading a movie at the 11MB/s limit with 1Gbps fiber because this disk is 100% usage. My computer is unsusable meanwhile. Ryzen 4800HS 16Gb Ram bloated with this piece of garbage. Yes it is "ok" for casual usage and gaming, but this thing hard-bottleneck this badass
I tried to transfer 1.3 TB of data to it last night and it was writing at 400mb/s due to my external SSD’s speed but suddenly dropped to 130mb/s after around 250gb of data.
@@treykeys2978 Like I say 250GB who normaly write 250GB of data.
I mean day to day.
For everyday use, it's good enough. I'm keeping my EVO 860.
Great video. Thank you!
Buying my first SSD next week during black friday. Never really saw the need for one since my 6 year old machine still boots into Windows in roughly 35-40 seconds from a cold boot. After experiencing them at work however I decided to take the plungy.
9:53 "...this is Intel we're talking about, they're generally not known for their aggressive pricing."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Oh, Linus, you're hilarious!
aggressive pricing means it's priced aggressive against competitors giving a better bargain towards the consumer
@@decoy3418 That's right. Take pride in paying more for less. AMD has had more cores, better multi core performance and has been cheaper for years. And now second gen Ryzen cpus will have objectively higher overall clock speeds too.
@@FatherManus don't know about those clockspeeds, Intel still has that sweet 5ghz I guess. Also when talking more cores, it depends on what you're doing. Gamers don't need more than 8 core/8 threads or 6 core /12 threads. Unless you do productivity, all those extra cores aren't needed for something like gaming:)
I think in general productivity stuff like AMD is awesome because of it's cores, or for good budget builds. For gaming I would definitely go Intel, even if zen 2 releases, I don't think their singlecore performance will be beaten and still more games are optimized max 8 threads and for Intel CPU's as well. (Also don't take numbers of Intel and AMD keynotes too strict, both know how to make the other look worse as much as possible:P) If you edit a lot, go AMD:)
Got a 1 TB 660p for $90 and am running it in my MacBook pro retina from 2013. Much faster than the drive it replaced!
I've been looking at getting this for my 2013 MBP as well. But I would be dual booting it with windows so I'm still trying to figure out how that would affect it.
I have an Samsung 860 Evo(512gb) in my work notebook.
I copied a OneDrive folder (70gb) to this SSD.
After a few minutes the write speed drops to 35 mbytes/s...
Very good video, thank you!
Nice... So everything seems to be getting exorbitantly more expensive in the computer space.. From top line Intel CPU's going from $350 or so to $580.. To top line Nvidia GPU's going from $650 or so to $1,200.. But, I thought, "HEY, at least SSD's have been dropping..".. And now I hear this.... Damn... PC is a bit of a bitch lately.
Its only that expensive because people buy them
Do you need top of the line? My PC is 7 years old. I put a new 1070 in it a few months ago and it still runs everything I've thrown at it just fine.
@@peytonmac1131 I was looking to VR stuff and UHD/4K stuff. Which demands top o da line.
@@bliglum I'm running an intel i7 2600k with my 1070 and can run the Vive without issue. SkyrimVR and Fallout4 VR both go fine.A new PC would no doubt run 4K with higher FPS, but personally I get enough frames that any more would hardly be noticeable. Get what makes you happy, but I'm still not sure the best is required.
@@peytonmac1131 I was on a similar setup, 4770K and 980Ti.. Ran most without issue, but in racing sims like Assetto Corsa and Project cars (VR) I had to turn everything down to medum/low respectively, and still got judders... So, I just got a 1080Ti (waited for 20 series, but overpriced!) Apparently though, the 1080Ti is being slightly bottlenecked a bit by my i7. So, currently looking into the 6 core 8700K.
Lol I saw this video pop up in my recommended just after getting a 760p (256GB) and I'm enjoying it a lot. Glad its TLC instead of QLC. It was amazing to find an NVMe for almost the same price of a cheap SATA SSD. Paired it with a relatively young Seagate Barracuda 500GB 7200rpm I had laying around. Coming from never having an SSD before, it seems to boost the HDDs performance since it isn't competing with OS' I/O when loading a game or something.
To the point and precise. Information videos should be like this.
I don't know if they made a new revision, but over time my drive (over the course of about three months) went from having similar behaviours/performance to the one seen in the video, to slowing down to near USB 2.0 speeds at 28 MB/s after sustained writes (see installing Elder Scrolls Online on it) and spiking up to 1456 ms response time when it hits that performance wall. Also flushing the cache does almost nothing for me in my case as it brings back the high performance for only about 10-15gb of data which may seem like a lot, but keep in mind that my example of Elder Scrolls Online is a 110gb game install. And I know this drive is intended for the average consumer but it doesn't seem right for any SSD or HDD to slow down to near USB 2.0 speeds with a response time that can be measured in seconds especially a drive which uses the NVME protocol. (this is with about 300gb free on the 1tb model)
I use a 660p 2TB version for games, very little writing other then installing. Works great, would not recommend one for an OS drive or for doing long videos or any frequent writing to the drive.
noko59 I use the 600p the same way. It is a great game drive.
Exponentially worse - proceeds to show a linear graph 🤔
they were sort of two different subjects.
Modern SLC gets upwards of 50,000 writes per cell, MLC does around 10,000, TLC gets more around 1,000, and now QLC is numbered in the hundreds.
It's bad.
Hopefully next year Samsung will start to offer SLC again at $0.50/Gig, which would still be profitable compared to TLC at the $0.08/Gig that is being rumored for 2019.
He addressed that in the video. The time grows linearly, but the number of states to sift through grows exponentially.
yea 2^1
For the read time versus number if layers graph it apears that 4 layers stores 4 times the data and takes 4 times as long to read. That would mean that the data per second on such a cell would be the same as slc memory.
Well I just bought the crucial p1 500gb nvme drive. Mostly I just don't want to deal with cabling. Hopefully it turns super fast.
F in chat for Stan lee
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I seriously read an article predicting exactly this, something like 10 years ago.
Linus should do an updated version of the chrysler turbo-encabulator video from the 80s with all of these abbreviations and acronymns would be hella funny
I had a usb 3.0 pendrive that did the same thing,
It would deliver close to 600 MBps brand new but very soon reduced itself to peak at about 60
2:00 Its science time ... Dawww :(
*With pictures!* Ohh :D
TLC's Nandfalls??
Don't go chasing Nandfalls. Please stick to the read and the write that you're used to
I know that you're gonna have it your way or nothing at all
But I think you're moving too fast…
Oh my god. This may be the funniest UA-cam comment ever made....
Lol, I see what you did there...
I have 660p 1TB and it rocks!!!!! I have only in the beginning when it was empty noticed speed drops (moving like 700GB from other the disk). Now it rocks as a gaming disk!
how is it holding up?
Great video. Interesting. I see the 1 TB for $129 cdn here, really interested- watched your video and still undecided. Makes me think of 1TB hybrid drives and how much slower they really are vs. ssd.