For what it's worth to anyone considering, I actually ended up picking up a Hagerty policy for my weekend car & joined the Driver's club while I was at it. It took less than a hour from quote submission to underwriting, and Hagerty offered the best terms for my multi-decade old car. The magazine is incredibly cool, although I'm clearly much too poor to be part of the target audience. Either way, the incessant reminders worked on me.
@@flat6croc Nah, the rich get away with plenty in Europe, too. The U.S. has _issues,_ but it's far from alone. Late-stage capitalism is a global issue.
@@mitchell-wallisforce7859 Nobody said the rich didn't get away with things in Europe. The difference is that in the US it's largely a nailed-on certainty that the rich almost never have their wings clipped, while in Europe they're pegged back quite a bit in many countries. The US is on a completely different level when it comes to inequality and exploitation than many European nations. Again, none of this is to say Europe is perfect, not even close. But it's far more progressive and redistributive than the US as a matter of clearly objective fact. Well regulated capitalism with a social democratic twist a la many countries in western Europe remains by far the most effective system yet conceived by mankind for increasing prosperity and quality of life. If one could choose to be born at any time in history and in any place in history to give yourself the best chance of a good life, and you didn't get to choose what class or race you were, you were just a random citizen, it would be Western Europe and pretty much today. The only exception to that involves issues around climate change. Anti capitalists have literally no clue about history and the reality of how much worse things were for ordinary people everywhere in the past.
@@flat6croc TL;DR - The issues still very much exist elsewhere, they're just significantly worse in the U.S. than the EU - a point with which I agreed completely but didn't feel like spending an hour putting into words. Bottom line being that the rich can generally just do what they want regardless. That doesn't give the U.S. a pass for managing to suck a hundred times more ass than Europe at keeping them in check, but that's the situation, isn't it?
@@mitchell-wallisforce7859 If that took an hour, inequality is the least of your worries! And your conclusion don't match your premise. The rich generally. can't just do what they want. That's why, to take one obvious example, F1 drivers all base themselves in Monaco. Because in most other European territories, there are limitations they want to avoid. They can't just do what they want, in flat contradiction to your baseless claims. Homogenising everything you do is silly and meaningless and doesn't help reveal useful truths. It's obscures and distorts. The US is meaningfully and dramatically different to many European countries regarding the matters being discussed here. I wouldn't much want to live in the US these days, whether it's individual rights, race relations, the courts, the regulation of large corporate entities. It's a very, very different landscape to Europe. Of course, Europe has a lot of problems. Some are shared but a lot are different, too. I prefer Europe's mix of issues right now to the US's. And by a long way.
I never thought I'd own a 2-pedal weekend car, but then I drove a 2015 Vanquish, fell in love, and bought it. Now I'm considering converting it to manual.
I imagine that Derek's car clubs meet at a speakeasy, uniform includes a hat and tie, and everyone's in black-and-white because Kodachrome hasn't been invented yet. Never change
@@technom3598 Which is crazy because they wrote an article about it etc and allow that narrative to continue. . The fact that you didn't pick up the fact that it failed to sell is directly due to Derek's decision to not to mention that fact, and he should have Immediately.
Fayence Yellow on the Carrera GT immediately came to my mind when DTS asked if any other OEM color doubles the value of a car. Not sure that one is double but it's at least a 6 figure premium.
Clarity of purpose, I love that term. I really feel like I have the perfect garage car and motorcycle wise right now and I really haven’t looked at the market in so long because I feel like there’s too much overlapping with what I already own.
For the record, I have much respect for the work that Jason and Derek do for their "day jobs." Not to mention all things Carmudgeon. Thanks, Guys! ❤🙏👍🏼
The classic car market has always been more about fashion and image than anything else. The underlying merits of a car do factor, but they're only loosely connected to value.
@@aprturI see Jettas around (probably because they sold more), but MK5 rabbits are few and far in between. mine has had random crap break, but nothing that has crippled it
Would love to see Jason Fenske on the show. Potentially discussing car myths, or build the Bridge between Jasons theoretical analysis and your driving experience
@@flat6crocthey’ve dropped in the US too. I’d say 15-20% since pandemic peak. Say from $35 to $30 for a 987.1 cayman S and from $50 to $40 for a 997.1 Carrera S. Manual of course.
Ugh, I bought a 997S new in early 2007, got $8k off the price b/c it was a bright color that didn't sell in those days, and then had to sell it 2 years later, with just 10k miles for $53k. At least I tracked and a/x'd it a lot.
My daily driver is a 79 Ford thunderbird. The American malaise era cars being considered a low point in build quality always surprised me. They may have been gutless. Fit and finish may have dipped. But they worked. Something you can genuinely fix on the side of the road with a set of wrenches and screwdrivers. I struggle to see anything made in the last 15 years that will stand up to 45 years of wear and tear. Everyone should own one. It changes how you look at cars.
People always seem to believe it's only the manuals keeping and even increase in value but I don't think that's the case. Kids around 5 to 15 year old now won't have the big manual history. Many won't even learning to drive a manual stick. A lot off there wall posters won't even be manual. Ferrari's aren't even manual for years now . Just like a lot of other poster cars.
Mondial QV owner. Considered a Testerossa, 456, 348, 355. TR is too sedate a driver and the differential likes to take out the trans, 512TR was out of budget and at its price I'd have bought other cars. 355 outside early euro models have power steering which was not great. The engine has some prices ways it can blow up. 348 didn't seem like it was worth having to pull the engine for, parts are more, transmission is a weak point if memory serves. 456 is needy even by ferrari standards. Mondial is easier to service besides the T. Parts are cheaper. No power steering. Engine and transmission are robust. I like how it looks, but not as much as a the others I listed above. As a driver it is not fast, but none of them are anymore. It is engaging and fun which is what I wanted.
From talking with my grand nephews/nieces I found they were initially drawn to performance cars by playing computer games such as Forza, Gran Turismo etc. and less so motorsports.
Hearing two old men talking about even more ancient cars, is the highlight of my day. I would love to hear what AMG's will be the future collection gems.
These are old men? I didn’t know they let children comment on UA-cam! Of course you drive a Mercedes 😂 what type of CLA do you (or most likely your mother) own?
@@alexbliss5927 Im in my early 30s so if your in 50s your old enough to be my father. Didn’t mean it to be rude but they do talk about some experiences I can’t relate too. I do indeed own a benz and a Shooting brake CLA45, which you don’t get in America. Which i worked very hard to own. It was either this or a high mileage C350e wagon which isn’t much fun. But please tell me more about yours?
100% agree with some penalty for bad buyers on BAT. Also their spin on the most recent changes related to agreements after reserves no being met was disingenuous. It is just because they were missing our on revenue from deals that went down outside for the platform. It offers no additional protection for any users.
i am already seeing a new group of car enthusiasts who arent obsessed with manual (muself included) and only buys single clutch or dual clutch supercars. Many of them are over 40 as well. This group of pple generally came into the car hobby later in life after their career is established, so they only had autos ever since they know how to drive, or had manual cars forever but as they age start to prefer accessible, safe, easy performance (like mclarens or modern porsches) over cars that you have to work hard to enjoy. You dont have to wait 20 years for these cars to become desirable, they already are (just look at early mucies and scuderia)
Laguna seca blue were the dealer demos, which were at dealers before any m3 could be purschased. Funny how the cars that no one wanted at the time are worth more.
@@pdcichoszit's a nice color, the fact it was a demo car at every dealership made it undesirable. Early cars also had engine issues, remember a number of them getting new engines.
@@freecanadaplease the engines didn't grenade until much later. Thoae early demo cars didn't really have the engine grenade until they had more miles. Spot on why people didn't want the color though. They were all LSB with grey...
@@technom3598 first cars sure did , at the time first 3 here, all owned by BMW club members, got new motors. It was cranks breaking.That's not my point, every Laguna Blue was a demo, drive by alot of people that wanted to see " what this thing could do". From those demos till the time you actually saw m3 being delivered was quite so time. It was faster to get German delivery, which a friend took advantage of. Only way to fix the s54 is dinan bearings, model after Nascar bearings. Laguna blue was always a tainted car, ridin hard and put away wet.
One important thing to understand when hearing someone's review of cars made in the 21st century is; almost all of them have adaptations that they need to go through in order for them to drive the way they were designed to, and the reviewer or vehicle owner may or may not have been aware of them. The car may in fact have multiple systems that need this done. The example I use to illustrate this is early traction/stability control systems. Nearly all reviewers in the early years for these systems complained about how abruptly they cut power, and the delay to power returning. This was caused by people forgetting to turn it off before trying to do a burnout, with those systems on, and the system not being reset. They can be very smooth. I assume the same is true for a single clutch auto. If it's not properly "trained" then it probably works pretty badly and wears the clutch quickly. It's definitely true for Automatics, and engine ecus, that they have adaptations and won't drive properly if not "trained" properly. A good example for ECUs is 2000s Hondas. Most of them required the "Idle Learn Procedure to be done, or the driveability would be poor, and mpg would suffer, it has to be done any time power is lost to the ecu. Like disconnecting the battery.
Wow... people are so disconected from reality these days that someone saying someone else's name is an event worthy of it's own term. Do I "get name dropped" everytime my family, friends, students and coworkers say my name?
I've met some youtubers, the Junkyard Digs crew, and the Pole Barn Garage crew.... Can confirm, they are just people.🤣 They just make their money making videos about cars.
The LSB tax is indeed crazy. It makes me wonder how much imported CSLs are going to go for once they're import-legal in a few years. Will they all be six-figure cars like the R34 GTR? They already are over in Europe...
Unfortunately for me and anyone who would like a CSL at a good price, I don’t see them going for under 6 figures (unless in very bad condition / high mileage). It’s arguably the best BMW to drive , being quite analog while still providing good performance. The fact that it has been road-tested with other 2000s gems, like the 360 CS and 996 GT3 (RS) doesn’t help the pricing. There will be better cars for over 100k, but if you really like BMWs, this is the one. You just need a handful of people that are hard-core BMW enthusiasts with deep pockets and the price will skyrocket. They’re also truly rare, unlike 992 GT3s and the like, which at least in Europe the classifieds are full of, in every spec (Winged/Touring, manual/PDK, sofas/buckets, PTS etc.)
Every obnoxious trust fund guy on youtube will have one to flex on the poors watching them. You bet they will skyrocket in price. Derek is also a trust fund kid and because he keeps deleting my comment I suspect he planned on buying one too.
I mean, Midnight Purple on a GTR probably pulls a huge premium. IDK that it's double every other color. Admittedly, I haven't checked that this is actually the case.
The midnight purple variations are definitely the most sought after R34 colours. Millenium jade is up there too but part of that is because it only came on the Nür trims.
3 місяці тому+2
start collecting early EV'S like perhaps a BMW I3's
Guys I'd like to hear a discussion on the merits and drawbacks of the one car garage, and what that needs to do and the compromises involved. I have bounced back and forth between three cars and one over the past decade and every time I have more than one car I end up deciding to sell the other two because my 'daily' is just so good. Right now it's a Porsche Macan Turbo and an E89 Z4. Am I just picking cars that are too similar? What would your choices be. Thanks!
I guess you could throw Midnight Purple and Millennium Jade R34 Skyline GT-Rs, as well. They generally fetch insane premiums nowadays. Curious if the COVID hype will die down there.
Yeah, don’t try the windows-raise-at-100mph feature in your E31, Jason - years ago I did that in mine and because of the outward suction aero effect at that speed, the rising windows sliced into the window rubbers, which then needed replacing - which is a ghastly job in that car, and they were never quite right ever again… looking forward to your E31 content, btw! There is one B12 5.7 coupe in the US, I believe - any chance you might try to track down the owner? Those cars are even more awesome than your CSi!
45:39 This manual doomerisim isn’t necessarily true. Vinyl records were once thought to go extinct but we’re making and selling more now than 20 years ago.
Barriers to offering manual boxes far, far higher than tooling up to press some records or manufacture some turn tables. Engineering, homologating, marketing etc a car with a manual box is a megabucks endeavour for a big OEM and may not even be doable at all for smaller brands in many circumstances. Just for one thing, note that most OEMs don't even make their own gearboxes and buy them in from specialist suppliers. If a suitable box isn't sitting on the shelf of a supplier, then in the vast majority of scenarios then that's game over, even big OEMs generally wouldn't tool up their own box. Over time, their are fewer boxes available, which narrows options, which ends up shrinking the market, which feeds back into box supplier narrowing their offerings and eventually it's easy enough to imagine their being basically no boxes available from suppliers and the cost of tooling up a bespoke box making the entire notion of a manual car outside of uber money boutique exotics like a Murray car a non starter. It's very much heading that way.
@@flat6croc Eh, maybe. Manual boxes will be around for a long time. They’re cheaper and still widely used in econoboxes sold in developing countries. These keep tooling and R&D around for them. The market will probably continue to shrink but very, very slowly. The floor for the demand shrinks slowly. The US is also in a new era of political chaos since Chevron was overturned. The EPA has zero authority further regulate emissions and all polluters are gearing up to shred all emissions regulations. This will result in V8s staying around a loooooooong time so long as Americans can afford it.
@@garythecyclingnerd6219 Manual boxes in econoboxes are irrelevant. A cheap box rated for low torque in a car for developing markets is mostly useless for anything interesting and certainly not a V8 performance car. Moreover, it won't be long before making an EV will be far cheaper than any ICE. EVs are fundamentally less complex and once the batteries get sufficiently cheap, ICE won't make any sense for cheap boxes.
@@flat6croc An econobox gear box is perfectly suitable for a Miata, minor changes may be necessary. I’m not sold on BEV being cheaper in the US any time soon. Perhaps if other nations let BYD in, sure, but the US and EU are taking a heavily protectionist stance against them. The proliferation of BEVs has slowed and I believe it will continue to do so as the US becomes increasingly regressive.
@@garythecyclingnerd6219 No, an econobox transmission is not suitable for a Miata. An econobox transmission will be a front drive transverse transmission, where a Miata needs a longitudinal transmission for a rear-drive installation. So, unless you want your Miata front drive, it won't help. Sorry, but you're wrong about this. Usable manual boxes are only become scarcer and it's not a gradual process.
Jason has the anti-DT-S stance with his VW... And o do the same.. buy the car you love when you get your liscence and never sell it ... But add other toys as funds allow....
41:10, I mean, you could probably convert LFA to manual since it already has a manual gearbox (which operates by a computer). It would probably cost 7 million bucks to do so :)
Bandwagoning is what's making E36s expensive now IMO which matters to me because I own the basest one, a 316i my dad bought new. I think as older cars get more expensive too so do the priorities of the owners, preserving the car and putting better parts on it but at the same time the cars (especially Euro M3s) have been ragged to hell since they were sub 5k cars for such a long time. I think that's the great... irony? of the market.
The boomer vintage hotrod stuff will stay at least somewhat popular as long as the CA smog exemption stays at 1975 and back. I'm solidly in the radwood generation, but am always looking at older stuff to play with. Spent way to much effort keeping stock early 90s stuff snogged and legal.
Derek posing the question to figure out where car enthusiasm comes from with the current younger generation and asking if it was motorsports that develops these lustful feelings for cars, I think the answer is all the racing video games like Gran Turismo or Forza motorsport or similar. The "favorite car from video game" is the new poster on the wall. And kids driving todays sports cars on video games will grow up wanting those cars because they already fetishised them in their young years. They get the sounds from the games, they get to see all the curves of the cars, they get to compete them against each other and argue over which one is better than the other one. It has to be video games! I think it would be great if a younger enthusiast like Derek or even Jason spent some amount of time playing these games just to try and get this reference point and peek into what the younger generations are already doing with their Car Hobby. You know, try to bridge the gap a little bit.
I just realized so many parallels exist here with the art world. (i intentionally didn't limit that to the art Market) The Believers, connoisseurs, fad followers, speculators. Thanks for all that you do.
It feels surreal to be watching this and glancing at a low mileage Laguna Seca Blue E46 M3 with slick top and blue interior down from my balcony. One of my neighbours dailies it because... why not?
Derek wasn’t quite right on the rolling 30 year emissions exemption. Before 1997 or so, there was no emissions exemption. After a lot of car club and enthusiast pressure, SB42 was passed to make it a rolling 30 year exemption. It was originally 25 but to get CARB to sign off it was changed to 30 and that was enacted. And then years later when no one was paying attention, CARB quietly got the exemption eliminated.
Speaking of ridiculously priced automobiles, what do you guys think about HWA’s reinterpretation of the 190E Evo 2 ? Personally I think it’s a missed opportunity because of the way it looks and because of the engine. Looks are subjective, but to me it looks like they orderer the front and rear lights from ebay. And the V6 is the worst they could have gone for. They could have went all in and get the 4.0 V8 or they could have kept the spirit of the Evo alive and fit the much hated powertrain from new C63. I really belive that in this application and with a better tune the powertrain would have made a lot of sense because a nutjob of a 4cyl is a big part of the Cosworth 190s.
@14:19 I can understand a small premium for rare desirable colors, but $45K is bonkers insane. Why not just spend $10K on a REALLY nice professional paint job to get that special color?
What are your thoughts on high-end prewar cars and their values? Do you see their values plummeting? I don't see younger people being interested in cars that old anymore
@@Dtamscott interesting. Yes I was speaking about the multi million dollar cars because while I think they are iconic are they really icons to anyone under 40 or 50 years old? The whole idea of 100 point concours cars seems very elitist and old fashioned and very much of an older generation. I don't go to those types of events but it seems their willingness to embrace newer cars is a sign that they also see a need to appeal to a younger audience.
Its the internet thats ruining the car market, you have the ferrari buyer's mentality coming to anybody selling anything remotely collectable now. Even down to sub $5000 cars. Had a lady complain to me that the corrado I was selling for $4000 didn't have AC.
There's no "purpose" to the M5 as it was just a M535i with a few cosmetic embellishments. The E28 5 Series got the 535i to complement the 520 and 528i as BMW was in heavy competition with Mercedes Benz. The rich history of this period is worth a show in intself and started in 1977 with BMW deciding to take on the S Class with the 728.
Interesting take on 2 vs 3 pedal cars. I'm 67 and grew up driving manuals. My wife is 47 and cannot/will not drive a manual. At this point in my life I don't want a manual for my daily driver.
The single clutch automated manuals are probably okay with high-end collectible cars at some point. Especially like the LFA and others where there was no alternative. But for the low end of the market it's like a shot to the knee. Had an Opel Astra H GTC with that easytronic transmission: pretty annoying to drive (even though I prefer torque converters over manuals) but absolutely horrible to sell the car. So my guess is those cheap examples of automated manuals will more or less all become extinct due to lack of interest in regards of maintenance because it's an example of diminishing returns.
Only car I can think of that is worth 2x more with a rare color might be the terminator in mystichrome. Assuming everything was the same as say an Oxford white termi
I'm not sure in what country you live, but I live in the USA, were between virtually and literally every car's price is affected by the market. If the market doesn't want it, it'll be sold for less than MSRP with big discounts. If the market *really* wants it, the dealers are going to tack on additional dealer markup. MSRP is calculated by a lot of highly paid MBAs to be what they believe is the maximum amount they can extract from the customer, that, is the market. Anyway, that's how it works in the USA. Where do you live where car prices are unaffected by the market?
Cars are very seldom an investment. Even if they appreciate, the holding costs are high. The economy is collapsing hard, and the “collectors” are aging out. Today’s 30 year olds aren’t likely to covet ancient mustangs and cameros.
I love hearing how out of touch Hyphen is... It truly makes me giggle, especially when he doesn't come to realize it (even after Jason's multiple attempts at course correcting him)
Rationality? I think classic car _ownership,_ is quite different to classic car _investment._ Desiring to own and drive a particular classic car/s, and then buying it? The context is *you have the thing you desire, or you don't you.* In and of itself, this is rational. However, hoping to make money from owning a classic car/s? The context is the *range of investment strategies, more likely or less likely to be profitable than classic car market speculation.* This particular strategy is indeed, irrational.
Yknow what's funny? There was a guy who offered me the same amount I ended up selling my Golf for 2 months earlier but he was a complete dick about the condition and I denied it based on the entire vibe I got that day and stuck to my guns. Someone else came by and was struck by the car and saw it for what it was and told me he'd take it to a mechanic and the whole deal went by really well and the guy is over the moon with the car. I'm a private seller, not a dealer but honestly people are dicks these days. Maybe that's on me for trying to sell base grey Mk5 TSI. Still, have some f*cking respect is gonna be my advice.
Here's a novel idea, don't live in a communist state if you are a car person. If you choose to stay there then you loose the ability to complain about in my opinion.
@@flat6croc in the grand scheme of things they’re nothing to a real sports car or super car, I won’t debate that. But M3 to M3 I don’t see what’s to like about the E46 other than Nostalgia & the styling. Engine sounds horrible, I don’t care what anyone says, you can yell CSL intake at the clouds for as long as you want. The steering is numb and slow especially on-center, yes I know it’s hydraulic it’s just not good. It’s still very heavy particularly compared to previous M3s & both transmission options suck. E92 yes it’s heavy & slow but god the variable hydraulic steering is perfect & the S65 is one of the best sounding v8s ever.
Where can I buy the shirt Jason is wearing? I need one.
Right here! closed-course-productions.printify.me/
We'll put a link in the description!
@@TheCarmudgeonShow This pleases me. I shall buy one and wear it while driving my Vanquish.
...Or while watching Jason drive my Vanquish...?
@@TheCarmudgeonShow Smooooth!
For what it's worth to anyone considering, I actually ended up picking up a Hagerty policy for my weekend car & joined the Driver's club while I was at it. It took less than a hour from quote submission to underwriting, and Hagerty offered the best terms for my multi-decade old car. The magazine is incredibly cool, although I'm clearly much too poor to be part of the target audience. Either way, the incessant reminders worked on me.
When people get into discussions that start with, “Will rich people continue to be allowed to…” the answer is almost certainly yes. Yes, they will.
In pseudo-democratic, proto-fascist USA, most likely, yes. But not everywhere!
@@flat6croc Nah, the rich get away with plenty in Europe, too. The U.S. has _issues,_ but it's far from alone.
Late-stage capitalism is a global issue.
@@mitchell-wallisforce7859 Nobody said the rich didn't get away with things in Europe. The difference is that in the US it's largely a nailed-on certainty that the rich almost never have their wings clipped, while in Europe they're pegged back quite a bit in many countries. The US is on a completely different level when it comes to inequality and exploitation than many European nations. Again, none of this is to say Europe is perfect, not even close. But it's far more progressive and redistributive than the US as a matter of clearly objective fact. Well regulated capitalism with a social democratic twist a la many countries in western Europe remains by far the most effective system yet conceived by mankind for increasing prosperity and quality of life. If one could choose to be born at any time in history and in any place in history to give yourself the best chance of a good life, and you didn't get to choose what class or race you were, you were just a random citizen, it would be Western Europe and pretty much today. The only exception to that involves issues around climate change. Anti capitalists have literally no clue about history and the reality of how much worse things were for ordinary people everywhere in the past.
@@flat6croc TL;DR - The issues still very much exist elsewhere, they're just significantly worse in the U.S. than the EU - a point with which I agreed completely but didn't feel like spending an hour putting into words.
Bottom line being that the rich can generally just do what they want regardless. That doesn't give the U.S. a pass for managing to suck a hundred times more ass than Europe at keeping them in check, but that's the situation, isn't it?
@@mitchell-wallisforce7859 If that took an hour, inequality is the least of your worries! And your conclusion don't match your premise. The rich generally. can't just do what they want. That's why, to take one obvious example, F1 drivers all base themselves in Monaco. Because in most other European territories, there are limitations they want to avoid. They can't just do what they want, in flat contradiction to your baseless claims. Homogenising everything you do is silly and meaningless and doesn't help reveal useful truths. It's obscures and distorts. The US is meaningfully and dramatically different to many European countries regarding the matters being discussed here. I wouldn't much want to live in the US these days, whether it's individual rights, race relations, the courts, the regulation of large corporate entities. It's a very, very different landscape to Europe. Of course, Europe has a lot of problems. Some are shared but a lot are different, too. I prefer Europe's mix of issues right now to the US's. And by a long way.
Tell the dork who backed out of the Ferrari, that the roof is "Period correct".
Waterproff "as new"
I love having Mondays off. Get to watch the Carmudgeon show as soon as it comes out!
paid post. this guy works for them. fake news.
I never thought I'd own a 2-pedal weekend car, but then I drove a 2015 Vanquish, fell in love, and bought it. Now I'm considering converting it to manual.
Thank you for this smart and eloquent content.
Will never own any of these cars but fun to listen along.
I imagine that Derek's car clubs meet at a speakeasy, uniform includes a hat and tie, and everyone's in black-and-white because Kodachrome hasn't been invented yet. Never change
I am so happy to hopefully hear you talk about that ridiculous price for the e46
Especially the fact that it wasn't actually purchased 🤣
@@obsidian.... What? It wasn't? The deal fell through?
@@technom3598 16:11 Nope - Seems like the guy decided he didn't have enough money 🤑
@@technom3598 Which is crazy because they wrote an article about it etc and allow that narrative to continue.
.
The fact that you didn't pick up the fact that it failed to sell is directly due to Derek's decision to not to mention that fact, and he should have Immediately.
@@obsidian.... Perhaps at the time of filming the guy was still leading them on.
That Car and Driver comparo Jason was talking about was "only" with the 599 HGTE, not the GTO.
re: color premium, I have seen Hagerty mention color in the Valuation Tool, e.g. 1992 Miata has a +15% for Sunburst Yellow
I bought a 1992 Sunburst Yellow new in 1993. The color was so unpopular at the time that it was still sitting on the lot unsold a year later.
@@Rex_Racer Most collectable colors are unappreciated in period I think, not the first example I've heard of but none others spring to mind atm!
@@Rex_RacerThat’s almost always the case. The colors no one wanted command the most money down the line.
Fayence Yellow on the Carrera GT immediately came to my mind when DTS asked if any other OEM color doubles the value of a car. Not sure that one is double but it's at least a 6 figure premium.
@@2AMinLosAngeles Consider CGT can be a 7-digit car, it's probably not as bad relatively speaking.
Clarity of purpose, I love that term. I really feel like I have the perfect garage car and motorcycle wise right now and I really haven’t looked at the market in so long because I feel like there’s too much overlapping with what I already own.
what do you have?
@@chappardababbar yeah I'm curious too 😅
I'd love a motorcycle vs miata debate on the channel
Was great meeting you at Radwood!
For the record, I have much respect for the work that Jason and Derek do for their "day jobs." Not to mention all things Carmudgeon. Thanks, Guys!
❤🙏👍🏼
The classic car market has always been more about fashion and image than anything else. The underlying merits of a car do factor, but they're only loosely connected to value.
My future car value is gonna be 0 when I’m done with it, gotta love the VW ownership experience, 5 cylinder noises are worth it though haha
I can't help but be a little shocked - Mk5 2.5 Rabbits seem like they've vaporized, which is bizarre given that the drivetrain is really stout.
@@aprturI see Jettas around (probably because they sold more), but MK5 rabbits are few and far in between. mine has had random crap break, but nothing that has crippled it
Funny enough, I follow the guy who bought the M3. He's an "influencer" here in Miami. Would have never known if he hadn't talked about it.
Somebody tell that nerd he's wrecking the curve.
31:50 Holy moment was enjoyed. May God bless you brothers
Would love to see Jason Fenske on the show. Potentially discussing car myths, or build the Bridge between Jasons theoretical analysis and your driving experience
Prices are insane on used porsche caymans and 997 cars.
997s are insane.
997s hit a sweet spot between the “austerity era” 996 and “digital era” 991. 997s are the quintessential modern 911.
Interesting, prices for 997s and 987s have dropped a lot in the UK. Factor in inflation and real terms prices are lower now than pre pandemic.
@@flat6crocthey’ve dropped in the US too. I’d say 15-20% since pandemic peak. Say from $35 to $30 for a 987.1 cayman S and from $50 to $40 for a 997.1 Carrera S. Manual of course.
Ugh, I bought a 997S new in early 2007, got $8k off the price b/c it was a bright color that didn't sell in those days, and then had to sell it 2 years later, with just 10k miles for $53k. At least I tracked and a/x'd it a lot.
@17:34 I was walking down the road listening to this video, and the moment Jason says "How 'bout a Solara", a convertible Solara drove by.
My daily driver is a 79 Ford thunderbird. The American malaise era cars being considered a low point in build quality always surprised me. They may have been gutless. Fit and finish may have dipped. But they worked. Something you can genuinely fix on the side of the road with a set of wrenches and screwdrivers. I struggle to see anything made in the last 15 years that will stand up to 45 years of wear and tear. Everyone should own one. It changes how you look at cars.
Perfect timing for this episode, I've had my '99 E55 for 4 years now and am getting the itch for something else
W212 AMG?
Nope W210
Glad to be here!
People always seem to believe it's only the manuals keeping and even increase in value but I don't think that's the case. Kids around 5 to 15 year old now won't have the big manual history. Many won't even learning to drive a manual stick. A lot off there wall posters won't even be manual. Ferrari's aren't even manual for years now . Just like a lot of other poster cars.
My shirts shipped but they're not here yet, was hoping to wear one for this pod!
Mondial QV owner.
Considered a Testerossa, 456, 348, 355. TR is too sedate a driver and the differential likes to take out the trans, 512TR was out of budget and at its price I'd have bought other cars.
355 outside early euro models have power steering which was not great. The engine has some prices ways it can blow up.
348 didn't seem like it was worth having to pull the engine for, parts are more, transmission is a weak point if memory serves.
456 is needy even by ferrari standards.
Mondial is easier to service besides the T. Parts are cheaper. No power steering. Engine and transmission are robust. I like how it looks, but not as much as a the others I listed above. As a driver it is not fast, but none of them are anymore. It is engaging and fun which is what I wanted.
From talking with my grand nephews/nieces I found they were initially drawn to performance cars by playing computer games such as Forza, Gran Turismo etc. and less so motorsports.
As a guy that’s just wants a car to start and get me where I need to go with no worries. I find this fascinating.
Hearing two old men talking about even more ancient cars, is the highlight of my day. I would love to hear what AMG's will be the future collection gems.
These are old men? I didn’t know they let children comment on UA-cam!
Of course you drive a Mercedes 😂 what type of CLA do you (or most likely your mother) own?
@@alexbliss5927 Im in my early 30s so if your in 50s your old enough to be my father. Didn’t mean it to be rude but they do talk about some experiences I can’t relate too.
I do indeed own a benz and a Shooting brake CLA45, which you don’t get in America. Which i worked very hard to own. It was either this or a high mileage C350e wagon which isn’t much fun. But please tell me more about yours?
Derek is in his 30's. Jason is close to 50.
NOT THAT CLOSE!
100% agree with some penalty for bad buyers on BAT. Also their spin on the most recent changes related to agreements after reserves no being met was disingenuous. It is just because they were missing our on revenue from deals that went down outside for the platform. It offers no additional protection for any users.
i am already seeing a new group of car enthusiasts who arent obsessed with manual (muself included) and only buys single clutch or dual clutch supercars. Many of them are over 40 as well. This group of pple generally came into the car hobby later in life after their career is established, so they only had autos ever since they know how to drive, or had manual cars forever but as they age start to prefer accessible, safe, easy performance (like mclarens or modern porsches) over cars that you have to work hard to enjoy. You dont have to wait 20 years for these cars to become desirable, they already are (just look at early mucies and scuderia)
Laguna seca blue were the dealer demos, which were at dealers before any m3 could be purschased. Funny how the cars that no one wanted at the time are worth more.
Having briefly worked at a dealership with powerful demo cars I'm pretty sure the reason why nobody wanted them was not the color ;)
@@pdcichoszit's a nice color, the fact it was a demo car at every dealership made it undesirable. Early cars also had engine issues, remember a number of them getting new engines.
@@freecanadaplease the engines didn't grenade until much later. Thoae early demo cars didn't really have the engine grenade until they had more miles. Spot on why people didn't want the color though. They were all LSB with grey...
@@technom3598 first cars sure did , at the time first 3 here, all owned by BMW club members, got new motors. It was cranks breaking.That's not my point, every Laguna Blue was a demo, drive by alot of people that wanted to see " what this thing could do". From those demos till the time you actually saw m3 being delivered was quite so time. It was faster to get German delivery, which a friend took advantage of. Only way to fix the s54 is dinan bearings, model after Nascar bearings. Laguna blue was always a tainted car, ridin hard and put away wet.
@@freecanadaplease I am familiar... I worked for bmw at the time ;)
The beard is coming back 🔥
Very nice
Is this a good thing?
@@TheCarmudgeonShow both smooth and bearded jason are good in their own ways
@@Eelofoppo yes, however bearded Jason looks more “normal”
One important thing to understand when hearing someone's review of cars made in the 21st century is; almost all of them have adaptations that they need to go through in order for them to drive the way they were designed to, and the reviewer or vehicle owner may or may not have been aware of them. The car may in fact have multiple systems that need this done. The example I use to illustrate this is early traction/stability control systems. Nearly all reviewers in the early years for these systems complained about how abruptly they cut power, and the delay to power returning. This was caused by people forgetting to turn it off before trying to do a burnout, with those systems on, and the system not being reset. They can be very smooth.
I assume the same is true for a single clutch auto. If it's not properly "trained" then it probably works pretty badly and wears the clutch quickly. It's definitely true for Automatics, and engine ecus, that they have adaptations and won't drive properly if not "trained" properly. A good example for ECUs is 2000s Hondas. Most of them required the "Idle Learn Procedure to be done, or the driveability would be poor, and mpg would suffer, it has to be done any time power is lost to the ecu. Like disconnecting the battery.
Crazy that Jason got name dropped on the recent Doug Demuro vid!
Thinking the same.
Lmao
Wow... people are so disconected from reality these days that someone saying someone else's name is an event worthy of it's own term. Do I "get name dropped" everytime my family, friends, students and coworkers say my name?
It’s almost as if Doug knows Jason personally. Who would have thought.
I've met some youtubers, the Junkyard Digs crew, and the Pole Barn Garage crew.... Can confirm, they are just people.🤣 They just make their money making videos about cars.
Jake from State farm is the unsung hero of this podcast! Also "Allah" just came out of nowhere in this conversation haha
Where can I subscribe to Tam hyphen Tangents? Very enjoyable
The LSB tax is indeed crazy. It makes me wonder how much imported CSLs are going to go for once they're import-legal in a few years. Will they all be six-figure cars like the R34 GTR? They already are over in Europe...
Chen. Lz. Vintra. Tommfscammer and every other trustfund dou che will have one and pump the price.
Unfortunately for me and anyone who would like a CSL at a good price, I don’t see them going for under 6 figures (unless in very bad condition / high mileage).
It’s arguably the best BMW to drive , being quite analog while still providing good performance. The fact that it has been road-tested with other 2000s gems, like the 360 CS and 996 GT3 (RS) doesn’t help the pricing.
There will be better cars for over 100k, but if you really like BMWs, this is the one. You just need a handful of people that are hard-core BMW enthusiasts with deep pockets and the price will skyrocket. They’re also truly rare, unlike 992 GT3s and the like, which at least in Europe the classifieds are full of, in every spec (Winged/Touring, manual/PDK, sofas/buckets, PTS etc.)
Every obnoxious trust fund guy on youtube will have one to flex on the poors watching them. You bet they will skyrocket in price. Derek is also a trust fund kid and because he keeps deleting my comment I suspect he planned on buying one too.
I mean, Midnight Purple on a GTR probably pulls a huge premium. IDK that it's double every other color. Admittedly, I haven't checked that this is actually the case.
mistichrome too on new edge cobras is a great example of that.
The midnight purple variations are definitely the most sought after R34 colours. Millenium jade is up there too but part of that is because it only came on the Nür trims.
start collecting early EV'S like perhaps a BMW I3's
Guys I'd like to hear a discussion on the merits and drawbacks of the one car garage, and what that needs to do and the compromises involved. I have bounced back and forth between three cars and one over the past decade and every time I have more than one car I end up deciding to sell the other two because my 'daily' is just so good. Right now it's a Porsche Macan Turbo and an E89 Z4. Am I just picking cars that are too similar? What would your choices be. Thanks!
An Imola Orange S2000 sold for $101k on BaT. That’s the only other example of color bringing in close to double on a car.
I guess you could throw Midnight Purple and Millennium Jade R34 Skyline GT-Rs, as well. They generally fetch insane premiums nowadays. Curious if the COVID hype will die down there.
Yeah, don’t try the windows-raise-at-100mph feature in your E31, Jason - years ago I did that in mine and because of the outward suction aero effect at that speed, the rising windows sliced into the window rubbers, which then needed replacing - which is a ghastly job in that car, and they were never quite right ever again… looking forward to your E31 content, btw! There is one B12 5.7 coupe in the US, I believe - any chance you might try to track down the owner? Those cars are even more awesome than your CSi!
Jason here: thanks! I've seen a couple B12 5.7s around, I think there are more than 1!
45:39 This manual doomerisim isn’t necessarily true. Vinyl records were once thought to go extinct but we’re making and selling more now than 20 years ago.
Barriers to offering manual boxes far, far higher than tooling up to press some records or manufacture some turn tables. Engineering, homologating, marketing etc a car with a manual box is a megabucks endeavour for a big OEM and may not even be doable at all for smaller brands in many circumstances. Just for one thing, note that most OEMs don't even make their own gearboxes and buy them in from specialist suppliers. If a suitable box isn't sitting on the shelf of a supplier, then in the vast majority of scenarios then that's game over, even big OEMs generally wouldn't tool up their own box. Over time, their are fewer boxes available, which narrows options, which ends up shrinking the market, which feeds back into box supplier narrowing their offerings and eventually it's easy enough to imagine their being basically no boxes available from suppliers and the cost of tooling up a bespoke box making the entire notion of a manual car outside of uber money boutique exotics like a Murray car a non starter. It's very much heading that way.
@@flat6croc Eh, maybe. Manual boxes will be around for a long time. They’re cheaper and still widely used in econoboxes sold in developing countries. These keep tooling and R&D around for them.
The market will probably continue to shrink but very, very slowly. The floor for the demand shrinks slowly. The US is also in a new era of political chaos since Chevron was overturned. The EPA has zero authority further regulate emissions and all polluters are gearing up to shred all emissions regulations.
This will result in V8s staying around a loooooooong time so long as Americans can afford it.
@@garythecyclingnerd6219 Manual boxes in econoboxes are irrelevant. A cheap box rated for low torque in a car for developing markets is mostly useless for anything interesting and certainly not a V8 performance car. Moreover, it won't be long before making an EV will be far cheaper than any ICE. EVs are fundamentally less complex and once the batteries get sufficiently cheap, ICE won't make any sense for cheap boxes.
@@flat6croc An econobox gear box is perfectly suitable for a Miata, minor changes may be necessary.
I’m not sold on BEV being cheaper in the US any time soon. Perhaps if other nations let BYD in, sure, but the US and EU are taking a heavily protectionist stance against them. The proliferation of BEVs has slowed and I believe it will continue to do so as the US becomes increasingly regressive.
@@garythecyclingnerd6219 No, an econobox transmission is not suitable for a Miata. An econobox transmission will be a front drive transverse transmission, where a Miata needs a longitudinal transmission for a rear-drive installation. So, unless you want your Miata front drive, it won't help. Sorry, but you're wrong about this. Usable manual boxes are only become scarcer and it's not a gradual process.
Jason has the anti-DT-S stance with his VW... And o do the same.. buy the car you love when you get your liscence and never sell it ... But add other toys as funds allow....
What about getting short in space🤷♂️
That's what relatives, friends, work parking are all for!!!
Jason’s rationale is why I bought a Miata. There are faster cars, but I’ve never driven something with more “clarity of purpose.”
41:10, I mean, you could probably convert LFA to manual since it already has a manual gearbox (which operates by a computer). It would probably cost 7 million bucks to do so :)
Buyers market? Prices are above two years ago for enthusiast cars
The 190E in the glass bowl is missing! 🚗
Bandwagoning is what's making E36s expensive now IMO which matters to me because I own the basest one, a 316i my dad bought new.
I think as older cars get more expensive too so do the priorities of the owners, preserving the car and putting better parts on it but at the same time the cars (especially Euro M3s) have been ragged to hell since they were sub 5k cars for such a long time.
I think that's the great... irony? of the market.
The boomer vintage hotrod stuff will stay at least somewhat popular as long as the CA smog exemption stays at 1975 and back. I'm solidly in the radwood generation, but am always looking at older stuff to play with. Spent way to much effort keeping stock early 90s stuff snogged and legal.
Operational cost > car value
Repair costs > car value
Quantity of parts > car value
This is why I'm getting a Tesla after trying them a few times
In the Uk the prices are on the way down
Derek posing the question to figure out where car enthusiasm comes from with the current younger generation and asking if it was motorsports that develops these lustful feelings for cars, I think the answer is all the racing video games like Gran Turismo or Forza motorsport or similar. The "favorite car from video game" is the new poster on the wall. And kids driving todays sports cars on video games will grow up wanting those cars because they already fetishised them in their young years. They get the sounds from the games, they get to see all the curves of the cars, they get to compete them against each other and argue over which one is better than the other one. It has to be video games!
I think it would be great if a younger enthusiast like Derek or even Jason spent some amount of time playing these games just to try and get this reference point and peek into what the younger generations are already doing with their Car Hobby. You know, try to bridge the gap a little bit.
E30 M3 is game over gents. Just buy one
Was he talking about " Joy and Pain" by Frankie Beverly and Maze?
Lol at the Toyota
At least Toyota doesn't make "Coupe SUVs" like Germans do.
I just realized so many parallels exist here with the art world. (i intentionally didn't limit that to the art Market) The Believers, connoisseurs, fad followers, speculators.
Thanks for all that you do.
It feels surreal to be watching this and glancing at a low mileage Laguna Seca Blue E46 M3 with slick top and blue interior down from my balcony. One of my neighbours dailies it because... why not?
Derek wasn’t quite right on the rolling 30 year emissions exemption. Before 1997 or so, there was no emissions exemption. After a lot of car club and enthusiast pressure, SB42 was passed to make it a rolling 30 year exemption. It was originally 25 but to get CARB to sign off it was changed to 30 and that was enacted.
And then years later when no one was paying attention, CARB quietly got the exemption eliminated.
Dakar yellow E36 M32 coupe will also ask double in a few years.
Insights on Your Car's Future Value, guesting Jay Lamm (of 24hrs of lemons)
"I'd buy a 10 million dollar car."
-Farva
"Good investment, but I'd still pull you over."
-Ramathorn
Speaking of ridiculously priced automobiles, what do you guys think about HWA’s reinterpretation of the 190E Evo 2 ? Personally I think it’s a missed opportunity because of the way it looks and because of the engine. Looks are subjective, but to me it looks like they orderer the front and rear lights from ebay. And the V6 is the worst they could have gone for. They could have went all in and get the 4.0 V8 or they could have kept the spirit of the Evo alive and fit the much hated powertrain from new C63. I really belive that in this application and with a better tune the powertrain would have made a lot of sense because a nutjob of a 4cyl is a big part of the Cosworth 190s.
Jason here: I think it looks amazing, but that V6 removes any excitement I otherwise had.
@14:19 I can understand a small premium for rare desirable colors, but $45K is bonkers insane. Why not just spend $10K on a REALLY nice professional paint job to get that special color?
What are your thoughts on high-end prewar cars and their values? Do you see their values plummeting? I don't see younger people being interested in cars that old anymore
Truly iconic stuff will retain value. Middling stuff will continue to be cheap. See Derby Bentleys with regular sedan bodies. $50k or less now.
@@Dtamscott interesting. Yes I was speaking about the multi million dollar cars because while I think they are iconic are they really icons to anyone under 40 or 50 years old? The whole idea of 100 point concours cars seems very elitist and old fashioned and very much of an older generation. I don't go to those types of events but it seems their willingness to embrace newer cars is a sign that they also see a need to appeal to a younger audience.
Its the internet thats ruining the car market, you have the ferrari buyer's mentality coming to anybody selling anything remotely collectable now. Even down to sub $5000 cars. Had a lady complain to me that the corrado I was selling for $4000 didn't have AC.
There's no "purpose" to the M5 as it was just a M535i with a few cosmetic embellishments. The E28 5 Series got the 535i to complement the 520 and 528i as BMW was in heavy competition with Mercedes Benz. The rich history of this period is worth a show in intself and started in 1977 with BMW deciding to take on the S Class with the 728.
Jason WHERE IS THE 850CSI REVELATIONS 😭
Being edited now! You'll see it next Thursday. Woo!
Here in Europe just get Hyundai i20N just one gen made classic already ❤❤❤❤❤
Interesting take on 2 vs 3 pedal cars. I'm 67 and grew up driving manuals. My wife is 47 and cannot/will not drive a manual. At this point in my life I don't want a manual for my daily driver.
You can keep up with a woman 20 years your junior but can’t manage three pedals?
@@RogerAlan No, I said "I don't want", not couldn't. My Jeep has an 8-speed automatic which is far superior to the available 6-speed manual.
@@SteveH98264 Cool. Enjoy that social security money 👍🏼
Derrick is "younger?" I thought his taste in cars came from before the flood.
The single clutch automated manuals are probably okay with high-end collectible cars at some point. Especially like the LFA and others where there was no alternative. But for the low end of the market it's like a shot to the knee. Had an Opel Astra H GTC with that easytronic transmission: pretty annoying to drive (even though I prefer torque converters over manuals) but absolutely horrible to sell the car. So my guess is those cheap examples of automated manuals will more or less all become extinct due to lack of interest in regards of maintenance because it's an example of diminishing returns.
Rode mixer was star of the show.
Only car I can think of that is worth 2x more with a rare color might be the terminator in mystichrome. Assuming everything was the same as say an Oxford white termi
There is great irony in Jason complaining about inflation and how expensive everything is now given his unhinged Facebook posts circa November 2020 🙄
Any car who's price is affected by the "market" is a car I won't bother looking at.
I'm not sure in what country you live, but I live in the USA, were between virtually and literally every car's price is affected by the market. If the market doesn't want it, it'll be sold for less than MSRP with big discounts. If the market *really* wants it, the dealers are going to tack on additional dealer markup. MSRP is calculated by a lot of highly paid MBAs to be what they believe is the maximum amount they can extract from the customer, that, is the market.
Anyway, that's how it works in the USA. Where do you live where car prices are unaffected by the market?
Cars are very seldom an investment. Even if they appreciate, the holding costs are high. The economy is collapsing hard, and the “collectors” are aging out. Today’s 30 year olds aren’t likely to covet ancient mustangs and cameros.
I'm feeling ill...
I love hearing how out of touch Hyphen is... It truly makes me giggle, especially when he doesn't come to realize it (even after Jason's multiple attempts at course correcting him)
Why care about value. Drive your damn car.
Everything has become investments especially with the internet ruined the car industry imo
Because some people don't have the car they want, so they need to buy it. What a stupid comment.
@@Zanpaathis
Because sometimes people want to trade their cars for other cars and if they lose all their value, they lose their buying power. Pretty simple.
I care because i dont have infinite cash & dont want something that drops like a rock
The intro had the awkward eye contact and table staring you would see at the blind date of two horny, socially awkward teenagers.
Revenge travel?
Rationality? I think classic car _ownership,_ is quite different to classic car _investment._
Desiring to own and drive a particular classic car/s, and then buying it? The context is *you have the thing you desire, or you don't you.*
In and of itself, this is rational.
However, hoping to make money from owning a classic car/s? The context is the *range of investment strategies, more likely or less likely to be profitable than classic car market speculation.*
This particular strategy is indeed, irrational.
Hall kids around, van is for kids, not shit Jason
Sometimes my kids behave like shit, so theres that 🤷♂️
But I love them 😂
Give it to me straight guys, how much will my Nissan Altima cost in 5 years? (121K Miles)
Up to $4000 unless you crash it first
Derek punching WAY above his weight class this morning.
Since Allstate bought Hagerty their rates tripled in the last three years. Boycott them until they return to their senses.
Allstate has not bought Hagerty! Where did this misinformation come from?!
"Some horrible turbocharged DCT piece of shit". Modern "driver's" cars in a nutshell, more's the pity.
OTS ? is this a joke right slow tonight
20% more valuable? You guys aren’t that big of a portion of the market
CA sort of invented the post-war Hot Rodding. That takes old cars and a strong aerospace industry. So many legands of hot rodding.
Amazing how people come on here and claim market is rational now. Guess he doesnt actually look at transactions
You should give a little lesson on how to negotiate politely and not be asshole. Also common scams. 😊
Yknow what's funny? There was a guy who offered me the same amount I ended up selling my Golf for 2 months earlier but he was a complete dick about the condition and I denied it based on the entire vibe I got that day and stuck to my guns.
Someone else came by and was struck by the car and saw it for what it was and told me he'd take it to a mechanic and the whole deal went by really well and the guy is over the moon with the car.
I'm a private seller, not a dealer but honestly people are dicks these days. Maybe that's on me for trying to sell base grey Mk5 TSI.
Still, have some f*cking respect is gonna be my advice.
First ❤
STOP TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT ALL THESE HIDDEN GEMS, PEOPLE WILL MAKE THEM EXPENSIVE TOO. STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT
Dude . . . One sided conversation. Ramble on . . . Breathe . . . Jeez . . .
These guys are a couple off camera… that’s my guess
Aaaand you'd be incorrect.
Here's a novel idea, don't live in a communist state if you are a car person. If you choose to stay there then you loose the ability to complain about in my opinion.
Here to say e46 m3 is one of the most overrated cars ever. The e92 and e36 do everything better.
I'd agree the E46 is massively overrated. But the other two aren't that great, either.
Lol. No.
I’d rather have an E36 or E90 m3 than an e46 as well.
Nah
@@flat6croc in the grand scheme of things they’re nothing to a real sports car or super car, I won’t debate that. But M3 to M3 I don’t see what’s to like about the E46 other than Nostalgia & the styling. Engine sounds horrible, I don’t care what anyone says, you can yell CSL intake at the clouds for as long as you want. The steering is numb and slow especially on-center, yes I know it’s hydraulic it’s just not good. It’s still very heavy particularly compared to previous M3s & both transmission options suck. E92 yes it’s heavy & slow but god the variable hydraulic steering is perfect & the S65 is one of the best sounding v8s ever.