Looking at the original stat rolling, the "...in order to.." is not followed by a comma, thereby negating the thought that they need to be rolled "in order( SIWDCCh)", but "in order to determine"
Thank you so much for watching and commenting. Grammatically speaking, you're entirely correct and it's one of the reasons I bring it up because a whole generation of old-timers have long maintained the intent was to roll the stats "in the proper order" of SWIDCCH. While Gary's sentence structure technically does not support that view, the unfortunate thing is that Gary (nor Dave Arneson, for that matter) was never known for either his spelling (e.g., he titles the introduction to one of the books as a "Forward" not a "Foreword") or his grammar, so it's difficult to rely on proper sentence structure as a basis for making the claim. In any event, I'm so glad someone else saw what I saw, because I never hear anybody mention this! So, thank you!
I gotta say, putting forth the idea that Shazam might have played a role in determining the D&D ability scores got a like/subscribe out of me! Also, seeing those old game books was really cool. Rock On!
I'm really glad you appreciated that! It's just a little theory I came up with, so like I said, I can't prove it, but I think it makes sense. Back in the day, I got most of the TSR RPGs. The main ones I missed were Gang Busters, Dawn Patrol, and the later Indiana Jones and Conan Games. I'll have to do a video on all of the ones I do have soon. Thank you for watching, commenting, and for subscribing! I hope you find other videos on my channel that you like. Cheers!
Thank you very much! I appreciate it. I also added that section as a "chapter so folks could skip it, although since it's at the end now, I guess people could just stop watching at that point if they choose. Glad you enjoyed the rest of the video!
Awesome video! I can't believe I never made the connection between Shazam and D&D abilities. This video makes me want to play some of those older games, Boot Hill was always alluring. And Marvel Super Heroes is fun, way better than the only other super hero game I've played: Palladium's Heroes Unlimited.
I spent so much time creating heroes for MSHRPG and then drawing them using my "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" book! Such a fun game. And yes, while I was flipping through Boot Hill, I began thinking how much fun it would be to run a one-shot for that. I played a Savage Worlds Deadlands game not too long ago and it was a blast. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Yes! And I had meant to mention how Charisma in the early days affected the morale of your hirelings to tie it together, but I forgot. As you can tell from watching, I don't script my videos, so after I finish recording, I often realize I didn't mention something but I also don't have the stamina to delete it and record it again!
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I just looked it up, and seems like it was published in 1984. I remember asking my mom to buy me an X-Men comic book, because I had never heard of them, but I recall they were featured in the first adventure, "The Breeder Bombs"!
Thanks for the video! We picked up fairly early the idea of rolling against an Ability score, as suggested by the DM or rolled secretly by the DM against an Ability score, to resolve various situations. So, while it is RAW to say Ability scores didn't matter much, in practice they were more valuable than the rules suggest. Did you ever finish the Angel's Envy? I have a small stack of Featherstone books, btw, that I sometimes reference for lore or ideas.
I'm really happy to see you going through my old videos! I'm glad you're enjoying them, and one of the benefits you'll get is seeing how my style and editing have (hopefully) improved over time. That Angel's Envy is *long* gone! That's so cool that you have some of those old Featherstone books. Those would be a great resource. Cheers!
The selection and treatment of the ability scores over the years has always fascinated me. I recall the additional ability score one may have found in Judges Guild products and other D&D-a-like publishers. It wasn't unusual to find Voice, Perception, Stealth, Magical Aptitude or Speed on equal footing with other ability scores at least in presentation. I think it's funny how Charisma is often considered the "dump stat" of D&D, that only holds true if one is playing a tiny part of the game; in the full scope of the game Charisma was vital to building a core of henchmen and improving how likely one was to be able to command others and while other ability scores grew in utility Charisma didn't lose this in utility within the rules until after 2nd edition.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it! Totally agree with you about Charisma - henchmen, hirelings, retainers, etc. were all critical to success in the early days of dungeon and wilderness exploration, and Charisma had a huge impact on that, as you mention! More modern versions of the game have hewed closer to video games, I think with a smaller core group of players who all start out as "heroes" rather than adventurers. Hirelings are barely even mentioned any more. In the game I run for my 13 year-old daughter and her friends, we're using 1981 B/X D&D, and they learned quickly that a high Charisma score would help them get more rumors, assist with parleying with monsters and NPCs when they didn't want to fight them, avoiding trouble with the law, and of course, in hiring retainers. It's crucial for their success!
Your content is great! I’ve been playing TTRPGs since I started with AD&D in ‘79 and I’m learning all manner of details about my life long hobby. I’m really looking forward to seeing your channel progress as your editing skills improve and your videos become more polished.
Thank you - I really appreciate that! I definitely don't have any editing experience or technical know-how, and my set-up is quite primitive. I also don't print out scripts to read, but rather do research and make some notes, but I talk off-the-cuff. At one point, I had asked folks if that was a problem, as I had intended to begin reading scripts, and the general consensus was that I shouldn't do that as it would lose something in terms of my delivery. I am VERY open to suggestions on how to improve my channel, if you have specific ideas with regard to editing, polishing my videos, etc. Thank you! I'm really glad you found my channel and I very much appreciate your support!
I'm glad you enjoyed the video, and learned some new stuff! I feel like there's always an opportunity for us to learn, no matter how long we've been playing! I started a few years after you, in 1981, but discover new stuff all the time. I'm glad you liked the drink and vinyl part. It's a new "segment" (only the second time I've done it) - I've been doing it on my blog for almost a decade and thought it might add some personality to the channel so that I'm more than just a pair of hands and a bunch of old books! Thank you for watching and commenting!
I really appreciate that - thank you! I've never heard anyone else mention the Shazam theory before. It could be that I just stumbled onto something, but it's also possible others have mentioned it but I just never heard of it. I'd thought of it before, but I'm currently reading the Mark Waid "Shazam" comic (the one I showed in the video - it just came out a few weeks ago) and it clicked again and I decided to include it in the video. Thanks again!
I do like your mention of Wargames by D Featherstone, this was the book that launched historical miniature wargaming. Also T Bath's (famous) Hyborea campaign, (this used R E Howards geographic world but with armies representing a historical prototypes), there were numerous magazine articles about his playing card system for deciding personalities, all these were condensed into a book eventually. Another book that maybe of interest and relavence is Skirmish Wargames by D Featherstone (1975) this book introduces the concept of a narrative as background for the combat (game) that followed in each chapter. Note this was released a year after D&D; Chainmail was still in print; and in the UK at least, there were other man to man (skirmish) wargames available....
Thank you so much! I really appreciate this detailed comment and the recommendation. I'll look up that book you mentioned. And thank you for watching and commenting!
Glad I found your channel; this is my kind of stuff! My FIL has a TON of older material from when he began gaming in the 70s. He has almost all of the Traveler LBBs and it is a blast to read through those and throw characters together. Great content, dude!
I'm so happy to hear this! Thank you so much for letting me know, and I'm also very glad you found my channel. Thank you for watching and commenting, and I look forward to continuing to chat with you. Cheers!
Really appreciate these dives into the history of specific mechanics and concepts. The possible Captain Marvel connection is one that never occurred to me before. Clever idea. Not much interested in the whole “what I’m drinking” bit. Your delivery and style offer up enough unique character in your videos. It’s very well done. Don’t need to put a hat in a hat.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it! After last time, it seemed the consensus of most folks was that the drinking/listening thing was fine as long as it didn't interrupt the actual content. I was trying to tie my videos back to my blog, where I've done that at the end of my posts for years. But, I don't want to turn anyone away! Let me know if that's a deal-breaker for you, and I'll definitely reconsider. Thanks again!
I vote a single drink update per video, maybe make a land acknowledgement at the beginning & end, make all your videos between 23-25 min in length and close with a few thoughts on health care reform. I have some notes on some phrases I’d like you to use as well as a couple product placements.
You're welcome! And thank you for watching and commenting! I hope you find other videos you enjoy and I look forward to chatting with you in the comments!
Wow... that's a huge compliment. Thank you so much! You are the first person to say my videos are "Very well produced" and I really appreciate that, as I'm making this up as I go along, and I have no formal training when it comes to editing or production. I'm so glad you like the channel, and I sincerely thank you for watching and commenting. Cheers!
Thank you so much, Professor! That means a huge deal to me, considering that I'm a tiny channel and that watching your videos is what was responsible for me finally getting my act together to run a campaign for my daughter and her friends (coming up on three years in just a few months!). Someone else commented that you'd sent them here, and I truly appreciate that. Thank you!
Very good video, sir. It's good to hear someone knowledgeable supporting my own research on the subject, as well as reveal some new details I had missed. Bravo.
Thank you very much! I really appreciate your support! The Shazam theory is just that... a theory. "Correlation doesn't equal causation" and all that, but it's still a fun coincidence at the very least! Thanks again for watching and commenting!
I saw the cover of the "Leipzig" game and I was instantly transported back to 1981 and The Tin Soldier which was a games and model shop in Springfield MA. I never played that (Squad Leader was our game) but I did play "Boot Hill". My other favorites were "Rivets" (cute robots armed with can openers) and the original "Starship Troopers" wargame. Thanks for the memories
I found your channel by happenstance and really like the little extra of the beverage and album features at the end. I have been using it as background for my studying and the music is pretty great so far.
I appreciate that! I remember thinking about it when I was a kid shortly after I learned about D&D, but I hadn't thought about it in years until I recently read a Shazam comic (the one I showed in the video - that issue is only a few weeks old) and it reminded me of my theory! Glad you enjoyed it, and thank you!
I didn't know this exact information, but having had plenty of experience in Warhammer before I got into D&D, I was familiar with that kind of stat spread (Strength, Constitution/Toughness, Armor Saves being 4+, 2+, etc). Interesting!
Thanks! I moved states right before 2E came out, and when I finally found a new group, they had stopped playing D&D and were playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay instead. I had a lot of fun with that game one summer before moving to college! Thanks for watching and commenting!
18:20 I enjoy jazz too, thanks mostly to my dad, who loved jazz, and played the saxophone and the clarinet. He had a metal clarinet that sounded very cool. He was also an incredible artist. I made a couple videos about him on my channel, that you might enjoy : )
Oh, cool! I will check those out. I'd say that roughly 70% of my vinyl collection is jazz. The rest is mostly Movie Soundtracks/Scores, Rock, Blues, and Christmas.
Thanks for another insightful discussion about ability score origins. They were definitely all over the board in first edition. A 13 in one attribute might give you some thing but nothing in another one. I remember rolling in order. The first roll was strength, and then dexterity, and so on. You had no idea what you were going to play until you looked at what your scores were. I like the fact that things are a little bit more consistent now. And this is nothing to say anything about percentile strength!
This might be my new favorite channel related to the “rpg-sphere”. I just love the history of these things and I think there’s a real value add in reminding ourselves what the original intentions behind these things were.
Great video! Love to actually see your picks from your rpg collection as well as that bourbon! Not too familiar with jazz but nice touch as well. I'm personally quite fond of the classic six though I enjoy other systems as well.
I really appreciate you watching and commenting! Thank you so much! I'll be doing some more videos on some of the games from my collection in the future as well. I think I'd say I'm most comfortable with the classic six, although as I mentioned in my video, I do understand that ability scores/attributes can and should change based on the system and the setting. Thanks again! I hope to chat with you again!
@@daddyrolleda1 And I appreciate the engagement as well as look forward to more videos! I agree regarding varying abilities in different systems. Not everything needs to be dnd 😅
I'm so glad to hear that! Thank you very much for watching and commenting. I have a bunch of historical videos like this, and I look forward to chatting with you about them in the comments.
One thing we did for a new player was to take 2 dice and put them 6 side up. They rolled one die and added it to 12. This was done only once and we told them that (for all six abilities). It helped to make it more fun for a new player. Because it sucks to have a couple of low abilities. Abilities for us was very important and it helped in developing personality and quirky behaviors. Nothing more boring than play the same type of character over and over and over and over. This made it easier to keep people interested in playing, especially back in the early days. Not to many people wanted to play in the first place.
Thank you for watching and commenting! That's a fun approach! For my daughter's game, I did 4d6 drop lowest which worked pretty well, but in Basic D&D, ability scores are much less important than they are in 3E and on.
I do know that Dave and Gary collaborated a lot on which stats to stick with. And I do believe at one point in the early days they did break out the difference between charisma and beauty under Arneson‘s game. But those who marked the character with beauty did so without affecting charisma. And you are correct it really was more of a mental note Under his game initially. Something to bring up if an issue occurred additionally Gary did convince after discussions between David Wesley Gary and Arneson to go from 2D6 to 3D6 because of the law of averages goes from a pyramid to more of a bell curve moving stats to be more in the middle. You get more of a bell curve the more dice you have. Which contradicts the current game generation where some people like to roll a D 20. That removes the bell curve
Thank you very much! I really appreciate your support, and thank you for watching and commenting! I do hope you enjoy some of my other videos as well. Cheers!
Oh my goodness, really?!?!?! Wow! I found those on Board Game Geek in a discussion on the game! They were posted on that site! I hope you enjoyed the rest of the video!
Thank you for watching and commenting! I never really got into Skills & Powers stuff unfortunately. My family moved at the tail end of 1E and I lost my group. While I bought some 2E stuff (mostly the "Complete" handbooks and a few of the Green Historical guides), the new group I found had decided to play Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I do hear from a lot of folks that liked the Player's Option books, and I recall that they began to presage a lot of stuff that ended up in 3E. Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@SuperHellfist While I started playing in 1981 with Moldvay Basic, in terms of sheer numbers of hours of games played, I've spent more time with 3E/3.5/Pathfinder1E (which I kind of just lump all together) than any other system! My 3.X collection is quite large!
also brownstone was created by Dwayne Jenkins. The first vampire. He was inspired by the TV series dark shadows to be that character. But you are correct in the persistent characters in his campaign. And you are also correct in David Wesely‘s game is episodic. Both David Arneson and Dwayne Jenkins realized players liked the idea of carrying the character from one game to the other. Both brownstone and Blackmore formed very quickly and close to each other
Loved the Marvel Super Heroes reference there. I actually came up with a replacement for its percentile rolls which I think used 2d12 with a bonus. The chances weren't exact but they were pretty darn close and the Green/Yellow/Red successes were just target numbers you had to hit. It was brilliant.
The first iteration of Charisma wasn't just about hiring retainers. It mentions how DM can use it to affect interactions. Same goes for Intelligence which was only used for language. But also for interactions based on DM assessing PC limitations. My interest has most to do with charisma. Because it's one of the things that I think that got worse in later editions. Despite many actual improvements to the game.
Yes, I'm a big fan of using the "Monster Reaction Table" in B/X D&D, which is modified by a PC's Charisma score. I use it a lot of times for social interactions and I particularly like that it's a bell-curve, not a linear D20 roll, so it's more geared toward a "neutral" or "indifferent" outcome. That's when a player's positive CHA modified can have a big impact! The players in my daughter's game have used that many times to their advantage to talk down a group of bandits to avoid a fight and also to make new allies, etc.
I'm interested in why Wisdom became a separate stat, was it (as I suspect) to make a distinction between Clerics and Wizards? Many old RPGs downright just call it Faith or similar. Modern Wisdom is a curious beast that became a mix of other svandard RPG attributes like Perception and Willpower (but ofc D&D considers Perception a skill) and class associations like nature affinity from Druid. But I'd be curious about a dive into why a word that's just a synonym for smarts/intelligence really was chosen to be its own thing.
Oh, yeah, for sure. Almost as many as there are different RPGs! I just showed a small sampling, as I thought it might be fun for newer players who have perhaps only played one game to see some differences. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1not the OP but I wanted to share my critiques on Ability Scores, particularly the ones in D&D. I think that on a fundamental level there are two major camps of what they are supposed to be/do. On one side they are just prerequisites for features of the game, as in you need X of Y Attribute to qualify to use Magic. On the other side (and the one I belong to) is that Attributes represent intrinsic aspects of the character that are not based on skill but nature. To that effect, I often find D&D, whose attributes stick to the first group, to often be.. problematic? Especially when trying to have immersion. You cannot play a socially awkward Bard or Sorcerer or Warlock without grossly kneecapping yourself mechanically for example. Additionally the 3 non-physical Attributes are all very subjective concepts that don't make sense if you think about them beyond the mechanical noise of gaminess. What exactly *is* Wisdom? By what measure are we defining "Intelligence"? What makes a person "Charismatic"? Especially when talking about older versions of D&D where things like Attractiveness are tied into Charisma at times, it becomes somewhat non-inclusive.
In that poll I did, about 2/3 of folks said that's what they prefer, so I'm shifting my focus to that for the time-being! That's why I just did two in a row! I will be sprinkling in some "how I plan a campaign" stuff, but my current campaign uses 1981 B/X as the rule set, so those videos will often also be an opportunity for me to talk about the history of that edition and the rules in there and why I use them, etc. Thanks for your support!
I remember a couple of those old games. I didn't play too many war games except Squad Leader and Panzer Blitz. None of the Nepoleonics or civil war games. Besides D&D my favorite game to play was Aftermath!, wich was a fantastic post Apocalypse game based on skills and I really enjoyed playing the original Deadlands The Weird West game by Pinnacle. I ran a Champions game for a short while and that was loads of fun.
I'm a big fan of the Post Apocalyptic genre and I remember seeing ads for Aftermath! in Dragon magazine, but I never saw the game at my local hobby shop, so to this day, I've never read or played it. My Post Apocalyptic game at the time was Gamma World, as we mostly just stuck with TSR games based on availability. I've heard great things about Champions, but that's another game I've never played, and I've only played the Savage Worlds edition of Deadlands.
Love you brought up the mechanics being designed to suit a specific experience. I get it, but as someone not interested in DnD, it's annoying that half the games I find when I search for literally anything turn out to be someone reworking 5e to be cyberpunk, or sci-fi, or Mecha. There are literally whole systems built from the ground up to embody these genres with mechanics based around the central themes and tropes, but apparently it's easier for people to break 5e and glue it back together than just read another system?
It's a difficult situation for a publisher, I think, partially because 5E already has a built in audience that is multiple times bigger than the audiences for smaller indie games. So, from a marketing standpoint, I totally get why folks create games that are simply hacks of 5E with a different setting. It's easier to sell that way. The same thing happened in the 3E/3.5 era, and the same frustrations were mentioned by folks about why everything had to be D20. I've been around long enough to know that there are better "universal" systems than D&D (such as Savage Worlds, as just one example) but there is a large percentage of gamers who aren't going to want to spend the time and effort to learn a new set of mechanics, unfortunately. Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I thank you for watching and commenting!
I truly appreciate this! It really does make a difference - I'm seeing this video performing so much better than the past 7 videos, by a wide margin! Thanks again!
Bourbon, Blakey, and rpg's. Nice combo! Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, and Marvel. All excellent games. You left out Gamma World and Top Secret tho. Boot Hill was great because it was simple and to the point. We never did much but get into shoot outs and TPK, but it was lots of fun. And Marvel was such an awesome superhero system. IT should make a comeback.
I own and have played both Gamma World and Top Secret! Gamma World was the second RPG I ever played, and probably my second favorite game after D&D. I didn't include it because I felt its ability scores were really close to D&D, and I'd already picked EPT which also has similar attributes. For time constraints, I just grabbed a game off my shelf, and my eye went to Star Frontiers first over Top Secret. Glad you enjoyed the video and my "drinking" and "listening" sections. That's a new thing I've added lately, although I've being doing it on my blog for over a decade. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I've seen tons of old hand-written and typed notes from Dave Arneson that all indicate he was not a particularly good speller! If you ever get a chance to watch "The Secrets of Blackmoor" documentary, one of the old players from back in the day mentions it specifically! Thanks for watching and commenting!
It looks like that 2nd character sheet is actually listing those traits and scores under the heading "Personality" rather than Personality being a score of its own. Which makes sense since (1) there is no number there and (2) all the other items would add up to the character's personality.
I like when games use thematic stats for their game mechanics - Dead Lands and 7th Sea are great examples, though I recognize the utility of these 6 stats being so pervasive, even if I quibble with what they're called and how they work. I'm also enjoying games which discard the idea of stats entirely. I've been trying to come up with a better list of stats - reflecting better the blurred lines between what is physical and mental, and reflecting traits that we tend to get from fiction (I don't know whether Luke Skywalker is stronger than Han Solo, but I think he is more courageous), but it is an almost poetic challenge of finding a short list of words that are intuitive and evocative which feel like they can sum up a character's strengths and weaknesses.
Duane Jenkins, not Dave. Also Jon Peterson had nothing to do with the Spanish Royals character sheet. Griff Morgan found it and I published the initial analysis on my Hidden in Shadows blog May 12 2017. No d12s existed at the time. It was all 2d6. FYI Megarry's sheets were first on Hidden in Shadows too. Oct 9 2016
Thank you very much for all of these corrections. I knew it was Duane but wasn't looking at my notes when I made this. And I obviously completed screwed up the Spanish Royals sheet - I found it on Griff's site and you can even see the sheet says "Secrets of Blackmoor." That was just a total screw-up on my part. Again, I really appreciate these corrections. I'm going to add them to the show notes right now since I can't edit the video once it's posted.
Okay, I added the corrections at the very beginning of the show notes and credited you for bringing them to my attention. I do hope my few mistakes on this video don't color your perception of the rest of my channel.
I really appreciate that! Thank you SO MUCH! I know it might not seem like a lot, but this particular video, just due to people subscribing and commenting, is far out-performing my latest 7 videos. You have to go all the way back to May 5th and my video on "The History of Skills in D&D" to find a video that has done better! Thanks again!
Thank you for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it! With every one of these history videos, there are always games that I end up leaving out for various reasons. Sometimes it's for time reasons. In this case, I left it out as the Basic Attributes (while there are only four) didn't really add much to the discussion of the abilities (at least, to me). It's the same reason I didn't mention Metamorphosis Alpha or Gamma World, as their ability scores are pretty much the same as D&D. For time reasons, I also left out Tunnels & Trolls, Runequest, and a lot more. Eventually I hope to cover all of them depending on the topic at hand.
You forgot comeliness, which was moved away from as they departed further and further away from how Gygax ran his games and his curious house rules. Bringing it back. Started a new campaign with it.
Thanks for watching and commenting! I didn't "forget" it - I actually mention it at this point: ua-cam.com/video/OSa1fwcxsG8/v-deo.html when discussing Empire of the Petal Throne and also refers the viewer back to my video on Unearthed Arcana. For this video, I wanted to focus on the original six scores and why those ones were picked. Thanks again!
Personally, I do, as well! It also doesn't make sense to call him "Shazam" when Mary Marvel is still around, as is Freddy (Captain Marvel, Jr.). They don't call them "Mary Shazam" and "Shazam, Jr."!
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I think it's highly possible! And, be on the lookout for an upcoming video that I think you'll enjoy, based on your comment. Thanks again!
I think Dex and Agi should be different. Above was a placeholder comment. I think ability scores being a modest boost to skills or maneuvers or whatever are easier to comprehend to me than the ability score being the dominant factor. Like just because someone is strong doesn’t mean they can fight and just because they can fight doesn’t mean that they’re able to lift heavy weights. Fate foregoes ability scores and just goes straight to skills. I don’t know how I feel about that.
That's really interesting about Fate! I know *of* the game, but I've not played or read it, and wasn't aware it didn't use ability scores. I don't think there are too many TTRPGs out there that don't have at least some kind of ability score system built into the rule, but while making this video, I assumed there probably were a few. I just didn't have time in the video to dig into them! Interesting points in your example about STR and how it impacts every physical type skill the same, at least how the game is written now. Thanks for watching and commenting! I appreciate it!
@@daddyrolleda1 I've never played Fate either, but there's a yt channel called Fatemaster Cesium, where he talks about the game of Fate that he plays with his friends. Fate sounds like a very interesting game.
Always enjoy your content. Wish I had this much D&D knowledge, but thanks to you, I'm acquiring a little more : ) Hope you are enjoying listening to my D&D story. I'm up to Chapter 14 on Book Two now. Hope we can chat in the comments at times too : )
I think you could have gone a little further outside the TSR bubble to discuss Chaosium adding Size early in Runequest and then Sanity for Cthulhu. Also, by looking at systems like Tunnels & Trolls or GURPS how the six abilities of DnD influenced other designers.
I have to acknowledge your comment on the "Big Red Cheese." I suspect many comics fans these days wouldn't even get that reference! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Thank you very much! I hope it didn't disappoint! If you like the channel name that much, I do have shirts and such in my shop that feature the name and logo. The name was suggested to me by a friend shortly after my daughter was born, upon learning that I was going to start a gaming/geek blog.
I was never really a big fan of Comeliness myself, but I remember when it came out "officially" in Unearthed Arcana. It was there from the beginning in Blackmoor but that game also had several different attributes all focused on overall "sex appeal" that were combined by Gygax into Charisma.
@@daddyrolleda1I just take issue with blending looks into Charisma. Your looks and personality are not the same thing, and they affect different aspects of different things. The problem is that different races have different standards, but we kind of took that into account, having the numbers kind of flip for the 'ugly' races, since the whole system was set up with a human bias, not just that one stat, everything. lol Don't get me wrong, they do affect each other (even more than the game implied), but, for example, your looks can affect someone from far away, your personality only starts to work when you have time to interact with people for a bit. UA was one of my favorite books back then, not only did it add that stat, but also some fun classes, like the Barbarian and the Cavalier. Between that, and Dragon magazine, we had some great adventures. ;) As far as the "sex appeal" thing goes, sex is the single biggest motivating factor for almost all animals. It is a part of our baser instincts, and almost everyone likes it (whether they admit it or not), as long as it is done in the right way for them (everyone also has their own tastes, and I am not here to judge). Point is, that it is a major motivating factor for all of history (even prehuman), it only makes sense to have it in our stories and games too. As the old saying goes, "sex sells", and while we should not let it control our lives, we need to stop acting like it's this taboo thing, it's an essential part of life. Even if you are not wanting to procreate, it is good for mental health. Sex is why we have the wide variety of life on this planet today, it is how biology and evolution keep pushing us. =D
I think it's stuck around this long because How strong you are, how tough you are, how fast/nimble you are, how smart/educated you are, and your strength of will/self, are the main metrics that can be represented with numbers. (And physical attractiveness, I guess, but that's always been problematic)
Wow - I really appreciate that. Seriously, I can't tell you how much it means that you even watch my videos at all, but then take the time to comment and leave a compliment. Thank you so much.
The short version is "yes." That's a Yazirian, one of the four playable races for Star Frontiers (1982). Years later, Yazirians were adapted and included as an underdark race in the "Monstrous Compendium: Dragonlance Appendix" and as the spelljamming hadozee for the Spelljammer setting in "Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix 1", both in 1990 for 2nd-edition Dungeons & Dragons. While I don't own the product, my understanding is that the 5E "Spelljammer: Adventures in Space" boxed set mentions the Hadozee are natives of a world called Yazir.
I just checked my copy, and you're right! It does say they are from Yazir. Call backs like that can really fun. Did their backstory of being enslaved and experimented on exist before 5e?@@daddyrolleda1
It's... "complicated." In the 2E Monstrous Compendium: Spelljammer publication, the Hadozee are described as having aided the elves during the "Unhuman Wars" and they were known as "deck apes." It specifically says, "The elves have willingly employed the talents of the hadozee, and have in return paid them well. The elves in no way consider the hadozee to be an equal race, however." In 3.5's "Stormwrack," the Hadozee are described as "...a cheerful traveler, propelled by curiosity and wanderlust into strange places and often dangerous situations." In regard to their relations with elves, it says, "Hadozee genuinely adore elves, almost to the point of fawning over them." But that's it; I couldn't find any other reference to them in terms of their history or any explanation of the "Unhuman Wars." I don't recall the Hadozee part part of 4E. So, all that then leads me to believe the backstory on their enslavement and experimentation is new as of 5E, but it's very possible I missed some deeper references, as I never played Spelljammer back in the 2E days.
Whoa, really! That is AMAZING! PDM is the one reason I finally got off my butt, stopped procrastinating, and started the game for my (now) 13 year-old daughter that is coming up on three years in a few months. His "Caves of Carnage" series was so inspirational to me, and I do watch and enjoy all his videos. How did he end up sending you over here? I'm a tiny little channel! And... thank you for letting me know! I hope you enjoyed the video, and that you stick around to find other videos you like.
I remember that Dallas game! I never read or played it, but I recall the ads in Dragon magazine. Did you actually play it? I've never met anyone who did!
I'm a big fan of Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family (specifically Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel, Jr.). I was reading his recent comic by Mark Waid when this theory came to me. Glad you enjoyed it.
I think my all-time favourite ability score array is from the Janes Bond 007 RPG by Victory Games. Strength, Dexterity, Willpower, Perception, Intelligence Plenty of variety, covers all situations and no obvious dump stat.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I've heard really good things about the James Bond 007 RPG, and I totally remember the ads in Dragon Magazine, but I never got a chance to play it.
I will add it to the list! Thank YOU for watching all the way through to the end. I really like those short "Bonus Content" segments at the end and I always appreciate when folks stick with it. Cheers!
I do have Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha, but I felt the Ability Scores were too close to D&D to merit a mention. Aside from EPT, I was trying to focus on games with a different suite of Ability Scores!
There's a lot going on with those, and I think there's probably something to that. Empire of the Petal Throne, published in 1975, also had a Comeliness score in place of Charisma, and Comeliness as an attribute in D&D debuted in Dragon Magazine #67 by Gary prior to him including it in Unearthed Arcana. In the article, Gary attributes the invention of a "beauty" statistic to Francois Marcela-Froideval, who worked with Gary on several AD&D products at TSR in the early/mid-80s as well as translating D&D products into French throughout the rest of the decade. Given that Gary played in a Blackmoor game that would've included both Looks and Sex Appeal statistics, it's very possible he was influenced by that as well.
Ha! I'll take it! Seriously... thank you for taking a few seconds to leave a comment. It really does help, especially to smaller channels like me. I appreciate it.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Most of my videos, for sure, are going to be based on TSR Products, as those are the games I grew up with, the ones I have in my collection, and the ones that were available from the stores I had available to me at the time. But, I do bring up games from other companies to make specific examples.
@@daddyrolleda1 My feeling is that D20 almost had it right but didn't quite go far enough and oddly enough marries well with WOTC's M:TG Take the M:tG color wheel (Red, Black, Blue, White, Green) and assign attributes (Str, Dex, Int, Cha, Wis), dumping Con entirely. Con serves no game purpose (everyone benefits from high Con and high HP, so simply give everyone the ability or dump it. If you REALLY need to distinguish hardiness, make it a feat/skill trick). Then assign each class a primary attribute and a secondary attribute (redundant, is fine). Pretty much every class in D&D is well-represented in this way. Barb - Str/Str Fighter - Str/Dex Monk - Dex/Str Acrobat/Archer - Dex/Dex Rogue - Dex/Int Wizard - Int/Dex Sage - Int/Int - Int/Cha Sorcerer - Cha/Int Bard - Cha/Cha Paladin - Cha/Wis - Wis / Cha Cleric - Wis/Wis Druid - Wis/Str Ranger - Str/Wis There are two I can't remember from memory. Rearrange and season to taste, if you like. Then derive all skills/feats from this combination of attributes. You'll also see that there are natural biases/exclusions for things on opposite sides of my Class Wheel. If you want to combine such combinations, you'll probably not find the same synergies and that's going to be reflected in whatever mechanics you decided upon.
Braunstein: Actually not a war game. I have videos on actual gameplay of this. It actually abandoned all wargaming aspects that we would recognize and went straight to role-playing. I can discuss this later if you’re interested.
Given the recent changes I believe the more poignant question is why does D&D have rules? It's so far from its wargame origins now it's hardly recognizable. Just describe your character and start the improvisation... err, roleplaying. Just do away with all the paperwork completely, I think that would be much closer to modern D&D, and definitely the direction its headed in.
Pretty nice and in depth video. However, anything after the 2008 mistake by wokejobs of the coast will NEVER be D&D to me as those low end systems have LOST the spirit of the beginning of the game. The mistake of 2008 can be compared to a mix of Shining Force and Diablo 1&2. Wanna challenge me on it? Play both of those games and then come back to me. Calling a half dragon (there is a template) a dragonborn (way to rip off The Elder Scrolls) is pretty sad. What has come out after the mistake of 2008 is keeping elements of the mistake of 2008 and multiclassing IS NOT true multiclassing. To "multiclass" in this lazy system, one must use a feat to gain exceptionally minor aspects of another class. Total garbage that has been rotting in the sun next to a dead skunk that has been there since a week before. Yeah, it pretty much sucks. There is only one thing I like from it and that is the ability to cast a higher level spell as a lower level spell. Not a hard concept and I did think of it a while back. Never came up with a way to implement it so long ago.
Looking at the original stat rolling, the "...in order to.." is not followed by a comma, thereby negating the thought that they need to be rolled "in order( SIWDCCh)", but "in order to determine"
Thank you so much for watching and commenting.
Grammatically speaking, you're entirely correct and it's one of the reasons I bring it up because a whole generation of old-timers have long maintained the intent was to roll the stats "in the proper order" of SWIDCCH. While Gary's sentence structure technically does not support that view, the unfortunate thing is that Gary (nor Dave Arneson, for that matter) was never known for either his spelling (e.g., he titles the introduction to one of the books as a "Forward" not a "Foreword") or his grammar, so it's difficult to rely on proper sentence structure as a basis for making the claim.
In any event, I'm so glad someone else saw what I saw, because I never hear anybody mention this! So, thank you!
I gotta say, putting forth the idea that Shazam might have played a role in determining the D&D ability scores got a like/subscribe out of me! Also, seeing those old game books was really cool. Rock On!
I'm really glad you appreciated that! It's just a little theory I came up with, so like I said, I can't prove it, but I think it makes sense.
Back in the day, I got most of the TSR RPGs. The main ones I missed were Gang Busters, Dawn Patrol, and the later Indiana Jones and Conan Games. I'll have to do a video on all of the ones I do have soon.
Thank you for watching, commenting, and for subscribing! I hope you find other videos on my channel that you like. Cheers!
moving the what i’m drinking/listening to segment to the end was a good idea. nice video
Thank you very much! I appreciate it. I also added that section as a "chapter so folks could skip it, although since it's at the end now, I guess people could just stop watching at that point if they choose. Glad you enjoyed the rest of the video!
Awesome video! I can't believe I never made the connection between Shazam and D&D abilities. This video makes me want to play some of those older games, Boot Hill was always alluring. And Marvel Super Heroes is fun, way better than the only other super hero game I've played: Palladium's Heroes Unlimited.
I spent so much time creating heroes for MSHRPG and then drawing them using my "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" book! Such a fun game. And yes, while I was flipping through Boot Hill, I began thinking how much fun it would be to run a one-shot for that. I played a Savage Worlds Deadlands game not too long ago and it was a blast.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1the only bad side of mshrpg was the lack of character advancement later fixed
And you brought up Moral, almost like an ability score back in the day.
Yes! And I had meant to mention how Charisma in the early days affected the morale of your hirelings to tie it together, but I forgot. As you can tell from watching, I don't script my videos, so after I finish recording, I often realize I didn't mention something but I also don't have the stamina to delete it and record it again!
I very recently got into D&D and you have been very informative. I enjoy the more obscure topics you are covering here. Thank you 😊
I'm so happy to hear that! Thank you so much for letting me know, and for watching and commenting. Cheers!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. FWIW, I remember playing Marvel Super Heroes in ‘83, so it is at least that old.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I just looked it up, and seems like it was published in 1984. I remember asking my mom to buy me an X-Men comic book, because I had never heard of them, but I recall they were featured in the first adventure, "The Breeder Bombs"!
Thanks for the video! We picked up fairly early the idea of rolling against an Ability score, as suggested by the DM or rolled secretly by the DM against an Ability score, to resolve various situations. So, while it is RAW to say Ability scores didn't matter much, in practice they were more valuable than the rules suggest. Did you ever finish the Angel's Envy? I have a small stack of Featherstone books, btw, that I sometimes reference for lore or ideas.
I'm really happy to see you going through my old videos! I'm glad you're enjoying them, and one of the benefits you'll get is seeing how my style and editing have (hopefully) improved over time.
That Angel's Envy is *long* gone!
That's so cool that you have some of those old Featherstone books. Those would be a great resource.
Cheers!
The selection and treatment of the ability scores over the years has always fascinated me. I recall the additional ability score one may have found in Judges Guild products and other D&D-a-like publishers. It wasn't unusual to find Voice, Perception, Stealth, Magical Aptitude or Speed on equal footing with other ability scores at least in presentation. I think it's funny how Charisma is often considered the "dump stat" of D&D, that only holds true if one is playing a tiny part of the game; in the full scope of the game Charisma was vital to building a core of henchmen and improving how likely one was to be able to command others and while other ability scores grew in utility Charisma didn't lose this in utility within the rules until after 2nd edition.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it!
Totally agree with you about Charisma - henchmen, hirelings, retainers, etc. were all critical to success in the early days of dungeon and wilderness exploration, and Charisma had a huge impact on that, as you mention!
More modern versions of the game have hewed closer to video games, I think with a smaller core group of players who all start out as "heroes" rather than adventurers. Hirelings are barely even mentioned any more.
In the game I run for my 13 year-old daughter and her friends, we're using 1981 B/X D&D, and they learned quickly that a high Charisma score would help them get more rumors, assist with parleying with monsters and NPCs when they didn't want to fight them, avoiding trouble with the law, and of course, in hiring retainers. It's crucial for their success!
Comliness and Luck were 7 and 8. I am glad other systems added some alternatives. Even a Pathdinder 1E OGL has substats you could use.
Your content is great! I’ve been playing TTRPGs since I started with AD&D in ‘79 and I’m learning all manner of details about my life long hobby. I’m really looking forward to seeing your channel progress as your editing skills improve and your videos become more polished.
Thank you - I really appreciate that!
I definitely don't have any editing experience or technical know-how, and my set-up is quite primitive. I also don't print out scripts to read, but rather do research and make some notes, but I talk off-the-cuff. At one point, I had asked folks if that was a problem, as I had intended to begin reading scripts, and the general consensus was that I shouldn't do that as it would lose something in terms of my delivery.
I am VERY open to suggestions on how to improve my channel, if you have specific ideas with regard to editing, polishing my videos, etc. Thank you!
I'm really glad you found my channel and I very much appreciate your support!
That Captain Marvel connection is genius! I have no idea if it's true, but it's such a fun hypothesis.
Thank you so much for saying that! I had a blast coming up with that theory, and I've never heard it before!
Good one, I actually learned a couple things I didn't know, and I've been in this since 79. BTW, port-bourbon and jazz.... classy. :)
I'm glad you enjoyed the video, and learned some new stuff! I feel like there's always an opportunity for us to learn, no matter how long we've been playing! I started a few years after you, in 1981, but discover new stuff all the time.
I'm glad you liked the drink and vinyl part. It's a new "segment" (only the second time I've done it) - I've been doing it on my blog for almost a decade and thought it might add some personality to the channel so that I'm more than just a pair of hands and a bunch of old books!
Thank you for watching and commenting!
I have never heard of the SHAZAM theory, but it makes sense! 😀 Great video as always!
I really appreciate that - thank you! I've never heard anyone else mention the Shazam theory before. It could be that I just stumbled onto something, but it's also possible others have mentioned it but I just never heard of it. I'd thought of it before, but I'm currently reading the Mark Waid "Shazam" comic (the one I showed in the video - it just came out a few weeks ago) and it clicked again and I decided to include it in the video. Thanks again!
I do like your mention of Wargames by D Featherstone, this was the book that launched historical miniature wargaming. Also T Bath's (famous) Hyborea campaign, (this used R E Howards geographic world but with armies representing a historical prototypes), there were numerous magazine articles about his playing card system for deciding personalities, all these were condensed into a book eventually.
Another book that maybe of interest and relavence is Skirmish Wargames by D Featherstone (1975) this book introduces the concept of a narrative as background for the combat (game) that followed in each chapter. Note this was released a year after D&D; Chainmail was still in print; and in the UK at least, there were other man to man (skirmish) wargames available....
Thank you so much! I really appreciate this detailed comment and the recommendation. I'll look up that book you mentioned.
And thank you for watching and commenting!
Glad I found your channel; this is my kind of stuff! My FIL has a TON of older material from when he began gaming in the 70s. He has almost all of the Traveler LBBs and it is a blast to read through those and throw characters together.
Great content, dude!
I'm so happy to hear this! Thank you so much for letting me know, and I'm also very glad you found my channel. Thank you for watching and commenting, and I look forward to continuing to chat with you. Cheers!
Really appreciate these dives into the history of specific mechanics and concepts. The possible Captain Marvel connection is one that never occurred to me before. Clever idea. Not much interested in the whole “what I’m drinking” bit. Your delivery and style offer up enough unique character in your videos. It’s very well done. Don’t need to put a hat in a hat.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it!
After last time, it seemed the consensus of most folks was that the drinking/listening thing was fine as long as it didn't interrupt the actual content. I was trying to tie my videos back to my blog, where I've done that at the end of my posts for years. But, I don't want to turn anyone away! Let me know if that's a deal-breaker for you, and I'll definitely reconsider.
Thanks again!
@@daddyrolleda1 Leave the music and drinks notes in. It's your channel, do whatever you want with it. It's not a committee board.
I vote a single drink update per video, maybe make a land acknowledgement at the beginning & end, make all your videos between 23-25 min in length and close with a few thoughts on health care reform. I have some notes on some phrases I’d like you to use as well as a couple product placements.
Thanks for helping maintain the hobby's history
You're welcome! And thank you for watching and commenting! I hope you find other videos you enjoy and I look forward to chatting with you in the comments!
I really enjoy your work. You're funny, precise, informative and witty. Very well produced.
Wow... that's a huge compliment. Thank you so much! You are the first person to say my videos are "Very well produced" and I really appreciate that, as I'm making this up as I go along, and I have no formal training when it comes to editing or production.
I'm so glad you like the channel, and I sincerely thank you for watching and commenting. Cheers!
Great video!
Thank you so much, Professor! That means a huge deal to me, considering that I'm a tiny channel and that watching your videos is what was responsible for me finally getting my act together to run a campaign for my daughter and her friends (coming up on three years in just a few months!). Someone else commented that you'd sent them here, and I truly appreciate that. Thank you!
Very good video, sir. It's good to hear someone knowledgeable supporting my own research on the subject, as well as reveal some new details I had missed. Bravo.
I really enjoy learning this history. I never put together the Shazam connection. Interesting theory. Great videos, keep them coming.
Thank you very much! I really appreciate your support!
The Shazam theory is just that... a theory. "Correlation doesn't equal causation" and all that, but it's still a fun coincidence at the very least!
Thanks again for watching and commenting!
I saw the cover of the "Leipzig" game and I was instantly transported back to 1981 and The Tin Soldier which was a games and model shop in Springfield MA. I never played that (Squad Leader was our game) but I did play "Boot Hill". My other favorites were "Rivets" (cute robots armed with can openers) and the original "Starship Troopers" wargame. Thanks for the memories
I found your channel by happenstance and really like the little extra of the beverage and album features at the end. I have been using it as background for my studying and the music is pretty great so far.
I always liked how the original Boot Hill had bo stats for social or intellectual ability and left that entirely to the player's imagination.
SHAZAM! :-) That completely makes sense and probably has some merit to it. Nice deduction there... even if it just speculation. :-)
I appreciate that! I remember thinking about it when I was a kid shortly after I learned about D&D, but I hadn't thought about it in years until I recently read a Shazam comic (the one I showed in the video - that issue is only a few weeks old) and it reminded me of my theory! Glad you enjoyed it, and thank you!
I didn't know this exact information, but having had plenty of experience in Warhammer before I got into D&D, I was familiar with that kind of stat spread (Strength, Constitution/Toughness, Armor Saves being 4+, 2+, etc). Interesting!
Thanks! I moved states right before 2E came out, and when I finally found a new group, they had stopped playing D&D and were playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay instead. I had a lot of fun with that game one summer before moving to college! Thanks for watching and commenting!
18:20 I enjoy jazz too, thanks mostly to my dad, who loved jazz, and played the saxophone and the clarinet. He had a metal clarinet that sounded very cool. He was also an incredible artist. I made a couple videos about him on my channel, that you might enjoy : )
Oh, cool! I will check those out. I'd say that roughly 70% of my vinyl collection is jazz. The rest is mostly Movie Soundtracks/Scores, Rock, Blues, and Christmas.
@@daddyrolleda1 I'm into Prog, but lately I'm into this artist on yt called Ren. Incredible talent.
Thanks for another insightful discussion about ability score origins. They were definitely all over the board in first edition. A 13 in one attribute might give you some thing but nothing in another one. I remember rolling in order. The first roll was strength, and then dexterity, and so on. You had no idea what you were going to play until you looked at what your scores were. I like the fact that things are a little bit more consistent now. And this is nothing to say anything about percentile strength!
This might be my new favorite channel related to the “rpg-sphere”. I just love the history of these things and I think there’s a real value add in reminding ourselves what the original intentions behind these things were.
I appreciate your comment so much. Thank you!
Dave Magarry is still with us. I wonder if he might have feedback on the SHAZAM theory.
That's a good point! Someone also suggested asking Luke. I'll see what I can do.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Thanks! 😊
Thank YOU! I appreciate you watching and commenting and showing your support. It means a lot. Cheers!
Great video! Love to actually see your picks from your rpg collection as well as that bourbon! Not too familiar with jazz but nice touch as well. I'm personally quite fond of the classic six though I enjoy other systems as well.
I really appreciate you watching and commenting! Thank you so much!
I'll be doing some more videos on some of the games from my collection in the future as well.
I think I'd say I'm most comfortable with the classic six, although as I mentioned in my video, I do understand that ability scores/attributes can and should change based on the system and the setting.
Thanks again! I hope to chat with you again!
@@daddyrolleda1 And I appreciate the engagement as well as look forward to more videos! I agree regarding varying abilities in different systems. Not everything needs to be dnd 😅
I very much appreciate informative historical videos like this. Thank you very much. ***thumbs up***
I'm so glad to hear that! Thank you very much for watching and commenting. I have a bunch of historical videos like this, and I look forward to chatting with you about them in the comments.
One thing we did for a new player was to take 2 dice and put them 6 side up. They rolled one die and added it to 12. This was done only once and we told them that (for all six abilities). It helped to make it more fun for a new player. Because it sucks to have a couple of low abilities. Abilities for us was very important and it helped in developing personality and quirky behaviors. Nothing more boring than play the same type of character over and over and over and over. This made it easier to keep people interested in playing, especially back in the early days. Not to many people wanted to play in the first place.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
That's a fun approach! For my daughter's game, I did 4d6 drop lowest which worked pretty well, but in Basic D&D, ability scores are much less important than they are in 3E and on.
I do know that Dave and Gary collaborated a lot on which stats to stick with. And I do believe at one point in the early days they did break out the difference between charisma and beauty under Arneson‘s game. But those who marked the character with beauty did so without affecting charisma. And you are correct it really was more of a mental note Under his game initially. Something to bring up if an issue occurred
additionally Gary did convince after discussions between David Wesley Gary and Arneson to go from 2D6 to 3D6 because of the law of averages goes from a pyramid to more of a bell curve moving stats to be more in the middle. You get more of a bell curve the more dice you have. Which contradicts the current game generation where some people like to roll a D 20. That removes the bell curve
Fascinting video. You got a new subcriber.
Thank you very much! I really appreciate your support, and thank you for watching and commenting! I do hope you enjoy some of my other videos as well. Cheers!
Stellar historical presentation and comparison of how they all exist in every edition in my opinion.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate the compliment. This was a fun video to make.
Wow. Those are my 6mm Napoleonic troops at the 1:55 mark. That was was weird just seeing them pop up in a random video.
Oh my goodness, really?!?!?! Wow! I found those on Board Game Geek in a discussion on the game! They were posted on that site!
I hope you enjoyed the rest of the video!
I did. Now Ill have to go find that thread.
@@WileyGames Sorry - it wasn't from Board Game Geek! It's from this blog post: baronvonj.blogspot.com/2015/01/fast-play-grande-armee.html
Yes. That’s my blog.
@@WileyGames OH! Well, I quite enjoyed that article/post!
i like the expanded ability scores in Player's Option: Skills & Powers, which breaks it up into 12 scores not just 6.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
I never really got into Skills & Powers stuff unfortunately. My family moved at the tail end of 1E and I lost my group. While I bought some 2E stuff (mostly the "Complete" handbooks and a few of the Green Historical guides), the new group I found had decided to play Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I do hear from a lot of folks that liked the Player's Option books, and I recall that they began to presage a lot of stuff that ended up in 3E.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 yes, many of those books ended up in 3rd edition and the warlock started there and many other things.
@@SuperHellfist While I started playing in 1981 with Moldvay Basic, in terms of sheer numbers of hours of games played, I've spent more time with 3E/3.5/Pathfinder1E (which I kind of just lump all together) than any other system! My 3.X collection is quite large!
Nice Vid Good Work!
Thanks for putting this together. Once again, super cool
I'm really glad you enjoyed it! I was a fun one to plan and record. Thanks for your support, as always!
also brownstone was created by Dwayne Jenkins. The first vampire. He was inspired by the TV series dark shadows to be that character. But you are correct in the persistent characters in his campaign. And you are also correct in David Wesely‘s game is episodic. Both David Arneson and Dwayne Jenkins realized players liked the idea of carrying the character from one game to the other. Both brownstone and Blackmore formed very quickly and close to each other
Fantastic additional insight! Thank you, Valar.
Thank you for the lore dive!
Thank YOU for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it, and I'm glad you liked the video!
Loved the Marvel Super Heroes reference there. I actually came up with a replacement for its percentile rolls which I think used 2d12 with a bonus. The chances weren't exact but they were pretty darn close and the Green/Yellow/Red successes were just target numbers you had to hit. It was brilliant.
The first iteration of Charisma wasn't just about hiring retainers. It mentions how DM can use it to affect interactions. Same goes for Intelligence which was only used for language. But also for interactions based on DM assessing PC limitations. My interest has most to do with charisma. Because it's one of the things that I think that got worse in later editions. Despite many actual improvements to the game.
Yes, I'm a big fan of using the "Monster Reaction Table" in B/X D&D, which is modified by a PC's Charisma score. I use it a lot of times for social interactions and I particularly like that it's a bell-curve, not a linear D20 roll, so it's more geared toward a "neutral" or "indifferent" outcome. That's when a player's positive CHA modified can have a big impact! The players in my daughter's game have used that many times to their advantage to talk down a group of bandits to avoid a fight and also to make new allies, etc.
Agreed. I use encounter reaction, and we can get things going with one percentile roll, not many diplomacy/bluff rolls.
Interesting. In 3E, PF1, and 5E, I'd rate it as the best Ability score overall, with Dex a very close competitor. Depends on game style.
Last time I saw anyone using "miniatures" for those games, they came up to my knees and had different stands to denote their starting positions.
I'm interested in why Wisdom became a separate stat, was it (as I suspect) to make a distinction between Clerics and Wizards? Many old RPGs downright just call it Faith or similar. Modern Wisdom is a curious beast that became a mix of other svandard RPG attributes like Perception and Willpower (but ofc D&D considers Perception a skill) and class associations like nature affinity from Druid. But I'd be curious about a dive into why a word that's just a synonym for smarts/intelligence really was chosen to be its own thing.
Great job with the Shazam theory. I think it’s probably spot on.
They're are so many other games that the difference of stats are extremely different. But there is only so many hours in the day.
Oh, yeah, for sure. Almost as many as there are different RPGs! I just showed a small sampling, as I thought it might be fun for newer players who have perhaps only played one game to see some differences.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Very interesting video. Ability scores used are my biggest critique of any given RPG or wargame.
Thank you for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it!
I'm interested to hear about some of your critiques on ability scores!
@@daddyrolleda1not the OP but I wanted to share my critiques on Ability Scores, particularly the ones in D&D.
I think that on a fundamental level there are two major camps of what they are supposed to be/do. On one side they are just prerequisites for features of the game, as in you need X of Y Attribute to qualify to use Magic. On the other side (and the one I belong to) is that Attributes represent intrinsic aspects of the character that are not based on skill but nature. To that effect, I often find D&D, whose attributes stick to the first group, to often be.. problematic? Especially when trying to have immersion. You cannot play a socially awkward Bard or Sorcerer or Warlock without grossly kneecapping yourself mechanically for example. Additionally the 3 non-physical Attributes are all very subjective concepts that don't make sense if you think about them beyond the mechanical noise of gaminess. What exactly *is* Wisdom? By what measure are we defining "Intelligence"? What makes a person "Charismatic"? Especially when talking about older versions of D&D where things like Attractiveness are tied into Charisma at times, it becomes somewhat non-inclusive.
Keep bringing the history
In that poll I did, about 2/3 of folks said that's what they prefer, so I'm shifting my focus to that for the time-being! That's why I just did two in a row!
I will be sprinkling in some "how I plan a campaign" stuff, but my current campaign uses 1981 B/X as the rule set, so those videos will often also be an opportunity for me to talk about the history of that edition and the rules in there and why I use them, etc.
Thanks for your support!
@@daddyrolleda1 Nice!
I remember a couple of those old games. I didn't play too many war games except Squad Leader and Panzer Blitz. None of the Nepoleonics or civil war games.
Besides D&D my favorite game to play was Aftermath!, wich was a fantastic post Apocalypse game based on skills and I really enjoyed playing the original Deadlands The Weird West game by Pinnacle.
I ran a Champions game for a short while and that was loads of fun.
I'm a big fan of the Post Apocalyptic genre and I remember seeing ads for Aftermath! in Dragon magazine, but I never saw the game at my local hobby shop, so to this day, I've never read or played it. My Post Apocalyptic game at the time was Gamma World, as we mostly just stuck with TSR games based on availability.
I've heard great things about Champions, but that's another game I've never played, and I've only played the Savage Worlds edition of Deadlands.
Love you brought up the mechanics being designed to suit a specific experience. I get it, but as someone not interested in DnD, it's annoying that half the games I find when I search for literally anything turn out to be someone reworking 5e to be cyberpunk, or sci-fi, or Mecha. There are literally whole systems built from the ground up to embody these genres with mechanics based around the central themes and tropes, but apparently it's easier for people to break 5e and glue it back together than just read another system?
It's a difficult situation for a publisher, I think, partially because 5E already has a built in audience that is multiple times bigger than the audiences for smaller indie games. So, from a marketing standpoint, I totally get why folks create games that are simply hacks of 5E with a different setting. It's easier to sell that way. The same thing happened in the 3E/3.5 era, and the same frustrations were mentioned by folks about why everything had to be D20.
I've been around long enough to know that there are better "universal" systems than D&D (such as Savage Worlds, as just one example) but there is a large percentage of gamers who aren't going to want to spend the time and effort to learn a new set of mechanics, unfortunately.
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I thank you for watching and commenting!
Great video! Such an intresting overview of the history. Thank you!
For the algorithm!
I truly appreciate this! It really does make a difference - I'm seeing this video performing so much better than the past 7 videos, by a wide margin!
Thanks again!
thanks. love it.
Thank YOU for watching and commenting! I appreciate it!
@@daddyrolleda1 And subscribing. Like everyone should!
That's awesome! Thank you very much!
Bourbon, Blakey, and rpg's. Nice combo!
Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, and Marvel. All excellent games. You left out Gamma World and Top Secret tho.
Boot Hill was great because it was simple and to the point. We never did much but get into shoot outs and TPK, but it was lots of fun. And Marvel was such an awesome superhero system. IT should make a comeback.
I own and have played both Gamma World and Top Secret! Gamma World was the second RPG I ever played, and probably my second favorite game after D&D. I didn't include it because I felt its ability scores were really close to D&D, and I'd already picked EPT which also has similar attributes. For time constraints, I just grabbed a game off my shelf, and my eye went to Star Frontiers first over Top Secret.
Glad you enjoyed the video and my "drinking" and "listening" sections. That's a new thing I've added lately, although I've being doing it on my blog for over a decade.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I agree. Gamma World was a lot of fun.
Crebadility, eh? Sounds esoteric!
I've seen tons of old hand-written and typed notes from Dave Arneson that all indicate he was not a particularly good speller!
If you ever get a chance to watch "The Secrets of Blackmoor" documentary, one of the old players from back in the day mentions it specifically!
Thanks for watching and commenting!
A question I never thought to ask.
It looks like that 2nd character sheet is actually listing those traits and scores under the heading "Personality" rather than Personality being a score of its own. Which makes sense since (1) there is no number there and (2) all the other items would add up to the character's personality.
I like when games use thematic stats for their game mechanics - Dead Lands and 7th Sea are great examples, though I recognize the utility of these 6 stats being so pervasive, even if I quibble with what they're called and how they work. I'm also enjoying games which discard the idea of stats entirely. I've been trying to come up with a better list of stats - reflecting better the blurred lines between what is physical and mental, and reflecting traits that we tend to get from fiction (I don't know whether Luke Skywalker is stronger than Han Solo, but I think he is more courageous), but it is an almost poetic challenge of finding a short list of words that are intuitive and evocative which feel like they can sum up a character's strengths and weaknesses.
Duane Jenkins, not Dave. Also Jon Peterson had nothing to do with the Spanish Royals character sheet. Griff Morgan found it and I published the initial analysis on my Hidden in Shadows blog May 12 2017. No d12s existed at the time. It was all 2d6. FYI Megarry's sheets were first on Hidden in Shadows too. Oct 9 2016
Thank you very much for all of these corrections. I knew it was Duane but wasn't looking at my notes when I made this. And I obviously completed screwed up the Spanish Royals sheet - I found it on Griff's site and you can even see the sheet says "Secrets of Blackmoor." That was just a total screw-up on my part.
Again, I really appreciate these corrections. I'm going to add them to the show notes right now since I can't edit the video once it's posted.
Okay, I added the corrections at the very beginning of the show notes and credited you for bringing them to my attention. I do hope my few mistakes on this video don't color your perception of the rest of my channel.
Subbed. - Brian.
I really appreciate that! Thank you SO MUCH! I know it might not seem like a lot, but this particular video, just due to people subscribing and commenting, is far out-performing my latest 7 videos. You have to go all the way back to May 5th and my video on "The History of Skills in D&D" to find a video that has done better!
Thanks again!
@@daddyrolleda1 Sure thing. I have a dormant chan. Video's talking about playing d&d always get a chan to 1k subbed. ~Brian.
I'm surprised you didn't mention GURPS. Great video.
Thank you for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it!
With every one of these history videos, there are always games that I end up leaving out for various reasons. Sometimes it's for time reasons. In this case, I left it out as the Basic Attributes (while there are only four) didn't really add much to the discussion of the abilities (at least, to me). It's the same reason I didn't mention Metamorphosis Alpha or Gamma World, as their ability scores are pretty much the same as D&D. For time reasons, I also left out Tunnels & Trolls, Runequest, and a lot more. Eventually I hope to cover all of them depending on the topic at hand.
This is awesome info!
Thank you so much! I appreciate you saying that, and also for watching, commenting, and subscribing!
You forgot comeliness, which was moved away from as they departed further and further away from how Gygax ran his games and his curious house rules.
Bringing it back. Started a new campaign with it.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I didn't "forget" it - I actually mention it at this point: ua-cam.com/video/OSa1fwcxsG8/v-deo.html when discussing Empire of the Petal Throne and also refers the viewer back to my video on Unearthed Arcana.
For this video, I wanted to focus on the original six scores and why those ones were picked.
Thanks again!
I still call Shazam Captain Marvel. Shazam is the wizard.
Personally, I do, as well! It also doesn't make sense to call him "Shazam" when Mary Marvel is still around, as is Freddy (Captain Marvel, Jr.). They don't call them "Mary Shazam" and "Shazam, Jr."!
Great music and an excellent beverage. 😊
Thank you very much! I really appreciate you watching and commenting! I hope you also enjoyed the rest of the video as well! Cheers!
Considering his penchant for appropriation, it's reasonable to conclude that Gygax was -- shall we say, "inspired" -- by SHAZAM.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I think it's highly possible!
And, be on the lookout for an upcoming video that I think you'll enjoy, based on your comment.
Thanks again!
I think Dex and Agi should be different.
Above was a placeholder comment.
I think ability scores being a modest boost to skills or maneuvers or whatever are easier to comprehend to me than the ability score being the dominant factor.
Like just because someone is strong doesn’t mean they can fight and just because they can fight doesn’t mean that they’re able to lift heavy weights.
Fate foregoes ability scores and just goes straight to skills. I don’t know how I feel about that.
That's really interesting about Fate! I know *of* the game, but I've not played or read it, and wasn't aware it didn't use ability scores. I don't think there are too many TTRPGs out there that don't have at least some kind of ability score system built into the rule, but while making this video, I assumed there probably were a few. I just didn't have time in the video to dig into them!
Interesting points in your example about STR and how it impacts every physical type skill the same, at least how the game is written now.
Thanks for watching and commenting! I appreciate it!
@@daddyrolleda1 I've never played Fate either, but there's a yt channel called Fatemaster Cesium, where he talks about the game of Fate that he plays with his friends. Fate sounds like a very interesting game.
Always enjoy your content. Wish I had this much D&D knowledge, but thanks to you, I'm acquiring a little more : )
Hope you are enjoying listening to my D&D story. I'm up to Chapter 14 on Book Two now. Hope we can chat in the comments at times too : )
Yes, I need to get back to listening. It's in the queue! I'm glad you enjoy my content, too - thank you!
@@daddyrolleda1 another channel that I think you'd really enjoy, is 'The Dungeon Minister'. Or have I told you about his channel before? : )
@@Lightmane You have, and I am subscribed to his channel.
I think you could have gone a little further outside the TSR bubble to discuss Chaosium adding Size early in Runequest and then Sanity for Cthulhu. Also, by looking at systems like Tunnels & Trolls or GURPS how the six abilities of DnD influenced other designers.
Love your taste in jazz!
Thanks be to the Big Red Cheese for the Holy Six Attributes.
Possibly.
I have to acknowledge your comment on the "Big Red Cheese." I suspect many comics fans these days wouldn't even get that reference!
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I'm here for the Channel Name. It was too damn funny not to take a look.
Thank you very much! I hope it didn't disappoint!
If you like the channel name that much, I do have shirts and such in my shop that feature the name and logo. The name was suggested to me by a friend shortly after my daughter was born, upon learning that I was going to start a gaming/geek blog.
@@daddyrolleda1 The video content was interestingly niche and quite well-researched.
Very enjoyable video!
Thank you so much! I appreciate you watching and commenting!
Because they decided that 7 was too many, for some reason. Comeliness was one I liked having, even if many find it problematic.
I was never really a big fan of Comeliness myself, but I remember when it came out "officially" in Unearthed Arcana. It was there from the beginning in Blackmoor but that game also had several different attributes all focused on overall "sex appeal" that were combined by Gygax into Charisma.
@@daddyrolleda1I just take issue with blending looks into Charisma. Your looks and personality are not the same thing, and they affect different aspects of different things. The problem is that different races have different standards, but we kind of took that into account, having the numbers kind of flip for the 'ugly' races, since the whole system was set up with a human bias, not just that one stat, everything. lol
Don't get me wrong, they do affect each other (even more than the game implied), but, for example, your looks can affect someone from far away, your personality only starts to work when you have time to interact with people for a bit.
UA was one of my favorite books back then, not only did it add that stat, but also some fun classes, like the Barbarian and the Cavalier. Between that, and Dragon magazine, we had some great adventures. ;)
As far as the "sex appeal" thing goes, sex is the single biggest motivating factor for almost all animals. It is a part of our baser instincts, and almost everyone likes it (whether they admit it or not), as long as it is done in the right way for them (everyone also has their own tastes, and I am not here to judge). Point is, that it is a major motivating factor for all of history (even prehuman), it only makes sense to have it in our stories and games too. As the old saying goes, "sex sells", and while we should not let it control our lives, we need to stop acting like it's this taboo thing, it's an essential part of life. Even if you are not wanting to procreate, it is good for mental health. Sex is why we have the wide variety of life on this planet today, it is how biology and evolution keep pushing us. =D
I think it's stuck around this long because How strong you are, how tough you are, how fast/nimble you are, how smart/educated you are, and your strength of will/self, are the main metrics that can be represented with numbers. (And physical attractiveness, I guess, but that's always been problematic)
I look at charisma as a measure of the strength of one’s personality.
Good work on this video
Wow - I really appreciate that. Seriously, I can't tell you how much it means that you even watch my videos at all, but then take the time to comment and leave a compliment. Thank you so much.
16:31 Is that character on the cover of Star Frontiers the beginnings of the Hadozee?
The short version is "yes." That's a Yazirian, one of the four playable races for Star Frontiers (1982).
Years later, Yazirians were adapted and included as an underdark race in the "Monstrous Compendium: Dragonlance Appendix" and as the spelljamming hadozee for the Spelljammer setting in "Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix 1", both in 1990 for 2nd-edition Dungeons & Dragons.
While I don't own the product, my understanding is that the 5E "Spelljammer: Adventures in Space" boxed set mentions the Hadozee are natives of a world called Yazir.
I just checked my copy, and you're right! It does say they are from Yazir. Call backs like that can really fun.
Did their backstory of being enslaved and experimented on exist before 5e?@@daddyrolleda1
It's... "complicated."
In the 2E Monstrous Compendium: Spelljammer publication, the Hadozee are described as having aided the elves during the "Unhuman Wars" and they were known as "deck apes." It specifically says, "The elves have willingly employed the talents of the hadozee, and have in return paid them well. The elves in no way consider the hadozee to be an equal race, however."
In 3.5's "Stormwrack," the Hadozee are described as "...a cheerful traveler, propelled by curiosity and wanderlust into strange places and often dangerous situations." In regard to their relations with elves, it says, "Hadozee genuinely adore elves, almost to the point of fawning over them." But that's it; I couldn't find any other reference to them in terms of their history or any explanation of the "Unhuman Wars."
I don't recall the Hadozee part part of 4E.
So, all that then leads me to believe the backstory on their enslavement and experimentation is new as of 5E, but it's very possible I missed some deeper references, as I never played Spelljammer back in the 2E days.
PDM sent me!
Whoa, really! That is AMAZING! PDM is the one reason I finally got off my butt, stopped procrastinating, and started the game for my (now) 13 year-old daughter that is coming up on three years in a few months. His "Caves of Carnage" series was so inspirational to me, and I do watch and enjoy all his videos.
How did he end up sending you over here? I'm a tiny little channel!
And... thank you for letting me know! I hope you enjoyed the video, and that you stick around to find other videos you like.
Social combat. .wish they made a DYNASTY RPG like DALLAS RPG
I remember that Dallas game! I never read or played it, but I recall the ads in Dragon magazine. Did you actually play it? I've never met anyone who did!
So glad to hear the original Captain Marvel respected and acknowledged as being more popular than Superman. Much better character.
I'm a big fan of Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family (specifically Mary Marvel and Captain Marvel, Jr.). I was reading his recent comic by Mark Waid when this theory came to me. Glad you enjoyed it.
Sad to see that "crebadility" attribute didn't catch on.
I think my all-time favourite ability score array is from the Janes Bond 007 RPG by Victory Games.
Strength, Dexterity, Willpower, Perception, Intelligence
Plenty of variety, covers all situations and no obvious dump stat.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
I've heard really good things about the James Bond 007 RPG, and I totally remember the ads in Dragon Magazine, but I never got a chance to play it.
Angels Envy is very nice. Try Van Payne Black
I will add it to the list! Thank YOU for watching all the way through to the end. I really like those short "Bonus Content" segments at the end and I always appreciate when folks stick with it. Cheers!
Wait…no Gamma World??
I do have Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha, but I felt the Ability Scores were too close to D&D to merit a mention. Aside from EPT, I was trying to focus on games with a different suite of Ability Scores!
@@daddyrolleda1 I’ll forgive the omission.
Looks and sex appeal in Blackmore seems a bit redundant. Could that have led to DnD later having charisma and comeliness as separate attributes?
There's a lot going on with those, and I think there's probably something to that. Empire of the Petal Throne, published in 1975, also had a Comeliness score in place of Charisma, and Comeliness as an attribute in D&D debuted in Dragon Magazine #67 by Gary prior to him including it in Unearthed Arcana. In the article, Gary attributes the invention of a "beauty" statistic to Francois Marcela-Froideval, who worked with Gary on several AD&D products at TSR in the early/mid-80s as well as translating D&D products into French throughout the rest of the decade.
Given that Gary played in a Blackmoor game that would've included both Looks and Sex Appeal statistics, it's very possible he was influenced by that as well.
Hello algorithm!
Ha! I'll take it!
Seriously... thank you for taking a few seconds to leave a comment. It really does help, especially to smaller channels like me. I appreciate it.
Yay, algorithms.
😁
Thank you! 😄
I had LITERALLY just commented, "there were games made by companies OTHER than TSR", and then you trotted out Marvel Superheroes :)
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Most of my videos, for sure, are going to be based on TSR Products, as those are the games I grew up with, the ones I have in my collection, and the ones that were available from the stores I had available to me at the time. But, I do bring up games from other companies to make specific examples.
@@daddyrolleda1 My feeling is that D20 almost had it right but didn't quite go far enough and oddly enough marries well with WOTC's M:TG
Take the M:tG color wheel (Red, Black, Blue, White, Green) and assign attributes (Str, Dex, Int, Cha, Wis), dumping Con entirely. Con serves no game purpose (everyone benefits from high Con and high HP, so simply give everyone the ability or dump it. If you REALLY need to distinguish hardiness, make it a feat/skill trick).
Then assign each class a primary attribute and a secondary attribute (redundant, is fine). Pretty much every class in D&D is well-represented in this way.
Barb - Str/Str
Fighter - Str/Dex
Monk - Dex/Str
Acrobat/Archer - Dex/Dex
Rogue - Dex/Int
Wizard - Int/Dex
Sage - Int/Int
- Int/Cha
Sorcerer - Cha/Int
Bard - Cha/Cha
Paladin - Cha/Wis
- Wis / Cha
Cleric - Wis/Wis
Druid - Wis/Str
Ranger - Str/Wis
There are two I can't remember from memory. Rearrange and season to taste, if you like. Then derive all skills/feats from this combination of attributes.
You'll also see that there are natural biases/exclusions for things on opposite sides of my Class Wheel. If you want to combine such combinations, you'll probably not find the same synergies and that's going to be reflected in whatever mechanics you decided upon.
@@PrometheanConsulting That's a fun, and at least to me, unique way of looking at it!
Thanks for sharing that!
Braunstein: Actually not a war game. I have videos on actual gameplay of this. It actually abandoned all wargaming aspects that we would recognize and went straight to role-playing. I can discuss this later if you’re interested.
Given the recent changes I believe the more poignant question is why does D&D have rules? It's so far from its wargame origins now it's hardly recognizable. Just describe your character and start the improvisation... err, roleplaying. Just do away with all the paperwork completely, I think that would be much closer to modern D&D, and definitely the direction its headed in.
Pretty nice and in depth video. However, anything after the 2008 mistake by wokejobs of the coast will NEVER be D&D to me as those low end systems have LOST the spirit of the beginning of the game.
The mistake of 2008 can be compared to a mix of Shining Force and Diablo 1&2. Wanna challenge me on it? Play both of those games and then come back to me. Calling a half dragon (there is a template) a dragonborn (way to rip off The Elder Scrolls) is pretty sad.
What has come out after the mistake of 2008 is keeping elements of the mistake of 2008 and multiclassing IS NOT true multiclassing. To "multiclass" in this lazy system, one must use a feat to gain exceptionally minor aspects of another class. Total garbage that has been rotting in the sun next to a dead skunk that has been there since a week before.
Yeah, it pretty much sucks. There is only one thing I like from it and that is the ability to cast a higher level spell as a lower level spell. Not a hard concept and I did think of it a while back. Never came up with a way to implement it so long ago.