Some superb goal pace efforts throughout your testing Tim. Intereting results but I wasnt suprised by them as I knew youre not overly sold on the Alphas. Keep the great content coming. 😎🤘
Yeah important to choose the shoes that work for you best and indeed nothing like a bit of goal pace to best test that. Of course if I was more of a fan of canal towpaths and/or hilly terrain I would need to get load more shoes (Kinvara Pro perhaps ) as these ones would get muddy :)
@@BenNotley yeah maybe I need to do an Ultrafly vs AF3 shoeoff on a tow path to see which is least worst for me. Perhaps 2 strides in each would be "enough" here especially if any sign of mud.
It was like I turned on a light and could "run" again more happily and indeed naturally in the VF3. If, as your other comment, you need to put a heel wedge into the AF1 sounds like you are trying to stop the shoe wanting you to run in a way you are not used to.
This is indeed joyous news as (1) I managed to source a pair of VF3s with just 25 miles on the clock for £125 and (2) it saves the urge for Dawn to seek out the AF3s for Manchester.
I love these data deep dives... So good. The Cadence/stride length data is very telling. Sure, it's a result of running faster...but it speaks to efficiency as well. You are more efficient in the VF. I spent alot of time last fall looking at cadence and especially stride length across the Metapssed Sky +/VF3/Adios Pro 3 and while the Sky+ helped me to extend my stride length, the VF3 is much more natural for me and the data proved what I "felt". Lastly, it seems the AF3 still has the "running in mud" feeling. The AF has always been a good shoe to lock into a (fast) pace and stay there...but if you ever need to accelerate forget it... your data is showing (to me) that it is still the case. Great video!
The spreadsheet was partly in your honour as you requested it :) I can't think of a shoeoff of two "super" shoes I have done where the "result" was so conclusive for me but it was good that I have some "evidence" to back up my gut feelings. Only other conclusive one was my very first one in 2019 when I had the Vaporfly 1 up against the likes of the Zoom Fly 5, Peg Turbos, Rincon 1, Adios 5 and OG Carbon X which wasn't very "super" at all. But those other ones had not seen WRs of course well Adios aside from few years back. Yeah good point about cadence. I have "sort of" tried at times to run with a longer stride and hence lower cadence (which the AF kind of makes me want to do) but never feels natural. They say tall runners normally have low cadence (like FOD Runner usually does not get much over 170) but clearly I buck that trend. Perhaps as a result of years doing 800/1500 and 4x400 legs where you won't get too far running close to 4 min mile pace (or sometimes quicker) without some leg turn over. Another thing about the AF3 after wearing it for a week I kind of feel a bit "beat up" not due lack of cushioning but felt it is making me run a bit different so think am using gets kickback as a result. What does need further discussion (good video for you) is why seemingly there is a rough 50-50 between runners who prefer AF over VF and vice versa. The comments on this vid and my AF3 review one certainly have shown the AF3 works amazingly well for some.
@@TimGrose I’m honored. I spent last fall trying to maintain my natural cadence (178-182’ish) while lengthening my stride. I added about 10-12cm consistently, which while not a lot is something. I also find max stack/rockered shoes… hard to maintain my natural cadence. The AF has always been in there. I tend to run around 172-176 in those shoes… which I find makes me work harder over longer runs. Part of why I’m spending so much time in max stack shoes lately is to see if it’s just a matter of getting used to running in them. Good idea for a video. I added it to my ideas list. I need to run in the AF3 first though… that seems like it will be a while. 🤷🏼♂️
@@SagasuRunning I would say 10-12 cm is actually quite a lot but were you doing that by essentially running "harder" and so a higher HR/power? Logically a longer stride for same cadence means you speed up. Rockered shoes I do wonder if I miss the memo a lot there. Only shoe I felt was really quite a "rocker" feeling was NB1080 v10 but not necessarily in a good way. As for AF3 I saw a vid yesterday where a British guy visiting Dubai walked into a shopping mall there and bought a pair and only the other day as well. Bizarre!
@@TimGrose I don’t look at power often, I use HR still, but I remember it being similar. But my cadence and HR were in the range I wanted. Even now, 4 months post working innit, in my easy running I still see the gain in my stride length. As for rockers… shoes they have a more aggressive rocker, meaning they start further back in the shoe, the 60-75% of the shoe work better for me. The further back towards the midpoint of the shoe the better. If I ever get a pair of Adidas Evo1s or its rocker geometry makes it way to the Adios Pro 4 I think that could finally be the shoe that gets me to move on from a Vaporfly. We shall see this year. Rockers that are further forward (Nimbus 26, Adios Pro 3, Sky+) seem to favor a slower cadence and require a slower turnover than feels natural to me. So they feel like they are “getting in my way”, I’d include the Alphafly here too. But I’m curious to feel the AF3 underfoot still, but can’t see how it can better the VF3 for me…
Seems like a rough session. Hope YOU are doing ok! I'm definitely with you in preferring the vaporfly to the alphafly, although I haven't tried v3 in either. I much prefer (and still have) the vaporlfy v1 and preserve it by doing workouts in the Puma nitro elite v2
Not too bad thanks. Yeah seems to be some who prefer the Vaporfly and others the Alphafly. I haven’t tried that Puma one. Heard it is good for train in at least.
Hi Tim, I definitely think the shoe width is got to be having an impact. I did a bit of checking and the alpha's come back as some of the widest out there. Both the vapourfly and alphafly have a spoon shaped carbon plate. My humble opinion fwiw is that for narrower feet the carbon plate won't be optimally positioned on the alpha's ... i think you mentioned somewhere towards the start of the video that the alpha plate was rubbing or something.
I always see comments from runners with wide feet that "narrow" shoes cause them issues so logically the reverse has to be true and indeed I normally try and avoid shoes that are wide or rather soon realise they aren't optimal for me. TBF though it is easier to "adapt" a wider shoe to "fit" a narrow foot than other way but in a shoe like this the plate size, outsole and Air Pods size etc etc are always fixed and presume designed to "fit" a perceived average foot shape for the size/length of the shoe. I certainly always feel I have "too much shoe" in the Alphaflys
Great effort and attention to detail in the testing. I’m glad the Vaporfly works for you. Do you think the air pods on the Alphaflys factor into the difference? I didn’t care much for the Alphafly 1 but it remains my half marathon PR shoe. The bounce and rebound work for me I suppose. I suspect the AF3 would perform better if I tried them. Thanks.
I am never quite sure what the Air Pods are doing for me - if anything. Got to think they add a bit of weight over just ZoomX and I noticed straight away a slightly softer feel in the VF3. I do feel some more "bounce" in the AF3 but the relatively heavier weight of them in my UK 13 size (AF3 290g, VF3 255g) means I always have a feeling of having to "lift" the Alphaflys off the ground.
As someone who has never wore a VaporFly, I have been extremely happy with the AlphaFly V3. I liked the AF V1, but up until recently didn't feel I was a strong enough runner to get the most out of the shoe. I loved the AF V2, but it was clearly overbuilt and clunky...I never realize how much until I wore the AF V3. The V3 is the most comfortable shoe I own....which I still can't believe. It's smooth, stable and efficient as hell! The level of RPE/HR reduction I am seeing in the AF V3 vs the AF V1, V2 and Tempo Next% is very clear. Which I still doubt and keep testing to get more data....but I'm about ready to just give up and accept the shoe is just that good (for me personally).
Ah that's interesting that you haven't tried any VF. If I was to restrict this sort of test to the AF1/AF2/AF3 and Tempo NEXT% I may well conclude that the AF3 is the "best" (of them) for me. Certainly it is the lightest of those. Have you tried any other "super" shoes from other brands? Like say Adios Pro 3, Endorphin Pro 3, Endorphin Elite, Rocket X2 all of which I also have.
@@TimGrose I've used a few other plated shoes/super trainers, but none of the level that the AF provides (Endo Speed V1,3, Boston 12, Takumi Sen8, Puma Deviate Elite V1...probably a few others in there). Been tempted to try the VF V3 with the recent changes, but since the AF (airpod setup) works well for me, still don't feel the need, since I focus on half/full marathons and don't run true 5k race efforts often.
Interesting Shoe-off. I did the VF3 vs. AF3 vs. AF1 vs. VF2 Shoe-off, but mostly based on feel on a treadmill. It was a bigger difference than I thought it would be. After running in the AF3, the VF3 felt like a Saucony Speed 3... in a bad way. Like a light, soft, medium snappy trainer. 🙂 The AF3 improved all of my running data; lower HR, lower vert. bounce, longer stride, shorter contact time and a nice cadence. I will keep the AF3 and VF2, and sell off the VF3 and AF1. I think the AF3 will be hard to beat, but that Puma Fast-R Elite 2 is speaking to me...
Really interesting that we are so different. Seems to be a theme developing that runners tend to love the AF3 (or any AF TBH) or not and it is does not necessarily seem to be shoe size related as I sort of feel it is for me as the AF just are so much "more shoe" than a VF in my size. That said can I ask what size you are and what sort of times you do? As for the running dynamics lower HR is obviously great but some of others just seem individual. So a longer stride is great if you means go faster but if cadence falls as a result then ends up the same with possibly more effort to keep that up. Also am puzzled how you can have both a longer stride and a lower VO? I have always seen higher VO in Alphafly which seems logical as it "feels" bouncy, perhaps a slightly lower cadence and so a bit longer stride as a result. Maybe that is not so natural for me and why I might struggle to run like that for too long. Despite my height my cadence has always been fairly high. Even going fairly easy generally see around 180 and higher when going faster.
@@TimGrose Yes, I was a bit surprised myself of the data my Garmin spat out. It had me at a 8% VO, and I'm always around 10%. I have the AF3 in US 12.5. I'm a (very) slow runner with probably a pretty weird running gait, so perhaps that AF3 is just a random "perfect storm" for me? But the outsole wear on the AF3 is just abysmal! It's like they are using eraser-type rubber for the outsole. I will have to restrict the AF3 use to only races if I want any sort of longevity what so ever...
No surprises here. As I commented recently, the weight difference in my size 40 EU is very small(barely 10g between AF3 and VF3) but the AF is such a massive shoe, it really feels like you have much more on foot.
Some of the replies here and on my review vid are interesting in that for some others the AF3 does seem to be their "new" favourite shoe and feel can run fastest in it. I think well maybe they have more "average" size feet than me and the relative size and feel of it (as you say it feels have more on your feet than you do) is less noticeable as an issue. However likes of Ben Parkes loves them with almost as big as feet as me and you with smaller feet don't. So fascinating to fathom what it is about the shoe that "works" for some but not others.
Have to admit that I have stopped using my Stryd as never really felt it was doing a lot for me and in these sort of tests the reliability & indeed consistency (or not) of Air Power often skewed the results. I never found any obvious difference in power between shoes as mostly all the variability was related to pace (or Air Power!). FPR is that Form Power? If so that is a metric I never saw anything meaningful for me. LSS again sort of interesting but again not sure what it told me. Remember once somebody saying wow your LSS is high. I then thought great but how I do run faster than I do as a result.
@@TimGrose FPR is the ratio of form power to total power and lower numbers are better. Basically when lower you are using more of the power for running as opposed to metabolic costs of maintaining the running form. LSS is the model of elastic energy in the leg. Higher numbers indicate more energy return. I think they would have been good metrics to look at. Higher LSS is considered better. Higher LSS does not necessarily mean higher efficiency however. You could be slightly lower in LSS wearing another shoe but more efficient for other factors.
@@TimGrose About air power. Today was a very windy day on my long run. The entire run average wind power was 3% but if I look at the KM splits Wind power was up to 7% for a couple of splits and instantaneous max was 17%. I think looking at wind power on the entire run basis might not be very revealing. The wind power chart has a big variation even when average is very low for the split.
Again, no surprises here after having seen your session on Strava. If and when I eventually try these it’ll strictly be for long runs and marathon pace work. Windy conditions aren’t helping at the moment - my session later I think will need to be on feel. Storm Jocelyn is immediately following Isha!
Other day I was complaining about the cold now it is the wind and rain. In the summer we will complain it is too hot & humid - remember Vets AC 5000 at Tooting :)
I recall he won London in a pair of black/pink VF2 that I also have. "Oddly" I don't seem to be able to go as fast as him in those either :) Joking aside it is interesting how seemingly different runners respond differently in different shoes.
Yeah, I have the same problem - I have the AF1 and can't run a marathon under 2 hours. Obviously Nike sold me a defective pair of shoes ... 😎@@TimGrose
Interesting and surprising you need to do that. Think I would have given up on a shoe if needed to raise my heel that much. That said it is a "trick" my physio has had me doing few years ago when had really bad Achilles. I was glad to get rid of them when the Achilles improved not least because the ones I had added about 50g to the shoes!
@@TimGrose Yes they add weight.. But it's the V1 so OK.. I actually ran a couple of times and put them in my box for 6+ month thinking about selling them.. Then I thought why not try to fix them. Maximum you destroy them.. So I took out the insole and put in a old Saucony one. Problem with arches solved. But still I could only use them for short fast runs up to 5k and they were very unstable on bad roads. So as a last resort I add a heel wedge.. Shoe became stable.. Air pods began to feel comfortable.. Now I can just take them for a 10 miles easy run and enjoy. I am trying to get the Alphafly V2 on sale..
Good pojnt! I checked the section on the "quiet" country lane (Goose Lane) that I did in the VF3 in the 3 min reps and also for the last blast up it and the 3 min ones did seem to also have the rough 52-48 ratio which TBF is what I normally see for any pace. I have got some one minute reps tomorrow so will have another chance to check this out.
Would like to see the results with VF on for the first half of a session then followed by the AF. It takes me a couple of miles to get moving these days (52) - could that have affected the earlier slower paces in the AF. Great video - Thanks
I did do a mile warm up and sort of the first rep of the 8 was a bit of a "feeler" but think certainly reps 2, 3 & 4 in the AF3 were "normal" ones. That said, have to admit it wasn't the most scientific of tests but probably the biggest factor for me is that I just feel happier running in the VF3 over the AF3 and I think that certainly contributes to performance as well as the relative specs and tech in the shoes.
Yeah possibly but easier said than done I feel. Increasing stride length generally means going faster and/or running in an unnatural way. As it is I feel the AF3 already wants me to try and run with longer stride and lower cadence and you can sort of see that in the numbers of this Shoeoff as my cadence was noticeably lower in the AF3.
Really exciting video 👍 Love data 🤗. It just goes to show that we are all different. And one shoe may not work for everyone. Alphafly V1 works best for me. haven't tried version 3. But Vaporfly doesn't work very well for me. I don't feel it helps me that much.
Fascinating indeed that different shoes work better for some than others. So is it Air Pods that make all the difference for you? Any AF version just feels clumpy to me. I kind of feel that a VF is a just bit closer to a racing flat that I wore for years and perhaps where the shoe isn't necessarily "helping" but equally I don't feel it is making me run differently or indeed am overly aware of a shoe.
@@TimGrose I do not know what it is. Like you, I have been running for many years. and a pair of Vaporfly feels more like a traditional running shoe I used before. so it's not because i don't like them. But I don't know what it is about Vaporfly. it fits well on my foot and feels light. But it gives me absolutely nothing back compared to a pair of Alphafly or Prime X V1. But they also give me extremely much back. Yesterday I participated in an online race. And I actually ran in a pair of Vaporflys. the race was 7 km. and I tried to run a little in the same way as I always do, save energy so I can run the last km faster. But yesterday there I simply died. And couldn't even keep up my pace for the last km. And it has happened several times now in Vaporflys. Maybe it's something mental. But I don't think so now because I ran the same pace in a pair of Adidas Prime X 2 14 days ago. Which I think are way too heavy to run fast in. But despite that. I ran the last km at a faster pace. And I am 100% sure that I could have run faster in them if I had paced the race a little differently. Which makes no sense. I guess I'm just a little weird 🤔
@@JS-Treadmill-Running Maybe it is mental. After all when we did start thinking our shoes not our fitness and/or freshness are to blame as it were. I have had good races and considerably less so in all VF versions. Indeed my perhaps best performance in last 2 years (a 37 something 10K) was in VF2 and the version I probably would say I like the least. I guess for me it is always been about fit and a light feel and having a shoe that wants to work with me or rather does not want to do something else which I sort of feels the AF does. I also think if I am absolutely all out I can't think of anything bar perhaps where is the finish line. If I start thinking about my shoes it rarely will be a good run.
@@TimGrose The mental definitely comes into play. Unfortunately, I have suffered an injury to my head. so I can't stand being with too many people in the same place. Plus my head affects my running a lot. That's why I mostly participate in online races on Zwift. And I can simply push myself more when I have the right shoes on. Which I can see on my heart rate. example, if I don't run in carbon shoes, I usually run with a lower heart rate. Which is strange. But that's just the way it is. Perhaps the reason is also that after my accident with my head I couldn't run for two years. And it wasn't until I got a pair of Alphaflys. I need a lot of protection from impact from the ground and at the time there were no shoes that had the same shock absorption as the Alphafly. I think that's why I have such a great love for them. but example with your video just shows. that the most important thing is to listen to yourself. And don't get carried away by the fact that a lot of UA-camrs think it's the best shoe in the world. we are so different in height, weight, shoe size plus many other things that play a role in choosing the right shoe. It's just great that there is someone who will stand forward and come up with an example like you have done. especially for the perhaps less experienced runners who don't know what works best for them. And believe that Alphafly is the best shoe for everyone
@@JS-Treadmill-Running Good that have found a way to enjoy your running. I used to do an awful lot of Zwift running and even a 19 something 5K race in the AF1. So they can "work" for me. So bouncy on a treadmill. I found Zwift races mentally probably harder than IRL as you see the exact pace and mentally do you have the ability to hold it or even to up the pace. A few times on hard treadmill sessions of races I have literally had to ease off as just could not feel could keep going. IRL I find you just more naturally slow. Also I found it better on Zwift to start slow and build up whereas outside in 5K I just normally go off a bit quick. Yeah these tests show different shoes work best for different runners and perhaps why Nike decided to keep the VF line when it seemed the AF1 was sort of introduced as the ultimate race shoe.
🚀 Tim 🚀speedy in any shoe!!! No surprises here … VF fans probably won’t be won over by the AF3, and from comments on your last video it seems that AF fans sure are loving it though!! Soooo, have you had any offers to buy them yet???
So will you sell the alphafly or use for training and the odd half marathon race. Going by that the vaporfly for me, as it's lighter. But until I try, I will never know, lol.
I'll keep the AF3 as kind of feel it is important (well to me) to have the "top" shoes for props or, like this, if want do some real world testing. Given the number of brand new pairs still sitting on StockX even in my UK 13 (9 pairs) then not sure what get that much back especially as mine have done over 50 miles and got a blood stain on the insole when I had the blood blister. Nice :)
@TimGrose fair enough. I always find it hard to find the right socks to wear in my spikes and different brand trainers. As shoes can feel too loose or too tight at times.
It would yes I agree for the most scientific test. Aside from the annoyance you mention it would change the nature of the session with the inevitable lot longer rest while you change shoes. My coach had set me 8 x 3 mins, 90s walk/jog recovery. It look about 3.5 minutes to change shoes so I don't think changed the nature of the session too much (and so done what I was told LOL) but would have done if had changed shoes every time with all that rest. I could have perhaps done them in sets of 2 but equally was getting dark and a storm was building up :) I think my main "test" here was to confirm which shoe I liked to run in more. No surprises there. Thinking about it, a good shoeoff test which I have done before and changed shoes every time is Lasso 800s. That effectively works out for me as 8x800 (or pretty much 8 x 3 mins) but with 3 mins recovery. Can hit the reps faster as a result. One for another time...
I have got another shoeoff video due out tomorrow (Mon 16th Sep) featuring both of these and some others. That seems to confirm again that, for me at least, the VF3 is better but can totally understand might be the opposite way round for others. Out of interest what shoe size are you? My theory is the Alphafly gets relatively a lot heavier in the larger sizes like what I am - UK 13/US 14.
@@junjun906 certainly on relative weight differences but equally personal preference. AF3 for me also has a wider base and, on this run, I felt the plate more which did not really like. I'll have to do a longer run comparison at some point as clearly both shoes are aimed to be able to run somewhat longer than a mile. I've used both for sessions where I did over 10 miles in total but not as continuous runs.
Kind of depends how dry and firm the grass is on shoe choices for that sort of race. If it is dry and firm then whichever shoe you like best. For me clearly would be VF3. If not either may not be good. Unless the ground was rock hard I would probably opt for spikes like the Dragonfly.
Ha ha yes - very expensive shoes that don't appear to be doing a lot for me. At least I am wearing a road shoe on a road as opposed to trail shoes on a road like the Ultrafly - now they are perhaps even better described as that.
It was certainly one of the biggest changes between shoes in all the shoeoffs have done. That said it seems many runners may well feel the order is the other way round but I thought this test was conclusive for myself.
That is HR drift in the main! A fair number of fairly hard intervals then I would always expect my average HR on each rep to be rising throughout the session. Perhaps though another key factor is that the VF3 just allowed me to feel I could go faster whatever the HR was.
Some superb goal pace efforts throughout your testing Tim. Intereting results but I wasnt suprised by them as I knew youre not overly sold on the Alphas. Keep the great content coming. 😎🤘
Yeah important to choose the shoes that work for you best and indeed nothing like a bit of goal pace to best test that. Of course if I was more of a fan of canal towpaths and/or hilly terrain I would need to get load more shoes (Kinvara Pro perhaps ) as these ones would get muddy :)
@@TimGrose glad they weren't complete ruined mate. I would recommend something puma grip for those muddy treacherous tow path sections.
@@BenNotley yeah maybe I need to do an Ultrafly vs AF3 shoeoff on a tow path to see which is least worst for me. Perhaps 2 strides in each would be "enough" here especially if any sign of mud.
Amazing result in the Vaporfly V3 considering you run in them afthe Alphafly V3.
It was like I turned on a light and could "run" again more happily and indeed naturally in the VF3. If, as your other comment, you need to put a heel wedge into the AF1 sounds like you are trying to stop the shoe wanting you to run in a way you are not used to.
This is indeed joyous news as (1) I managed to source a pair of VF3s with just 25 miles on the clock for £125 and (2) it saves the urge for Dawn to seek out the AF3s for Manchester.
Ah sounds like a good deal. Of course Dawn may well get on with the AF3 somewhat better than I do but don't they are a magic wand whatever as it were.
I love these data deep dives... So good. The Cadence/stride length data is very telling. Sure, it's a result of running faster...but it speaks to efficiency as well. You are more efficient in the VF. I spent alot of time last fall looking at cadence and especially stride length across the Metapssed Sky +/VF3/Adios Pro 3 and while the Sky+ helped me to extend my stride length, the VF3 is much more natural for me and the data proved what I "felt".
Lastly, it seems the AF3 still has the "running in mud" feeling. The AF has always been a good shoe to lock into a (fast) pace and stay there...but if you ever need to accelerate forget it... your data is showing (to me) that it is still the case.
Great video!
The spreadsheet was partly in your honour as you requested it :) I can't think of a shoeoff of two "super" shoes I have done where the "result" was so conclusive for me but it was good that I have some "evidence" to back up my gut feelings. Only other conclusive one was my very first one in 2019 when I had the Vaporfly 1 up against the likes of the Zoom Fly 5, Peg Turbos, Rincon 1, Adios 5 and OG Carbon X which wasn't very "super" at all. But those other ones had not seen WRs of course well Adios aside from few years back. Yeah good point about cadence. I have "sort of" tried at times to run with a longer stride and hence lower cadence (which the AF kind of makes me want to do) but never feels natural. They say tall runners normally have low cadence (like FOD Runner usually does not get much over 170) but clearly I buck that trend. Perhaps as a result of years doing 800/1500 and 4x400 legs where you won't get too far running close to 4 min mile pace (or sometimes quicker) without some leg turn over. Another thing about the AF3 after wearing it for a week I kind of feel a bit "beat up" not due lack of cushioning but felt it is making me run a bit different so think am using gets kickback as a result. What does need further discussion (good video for you) is why seemingly there is a rough 50-50 between runners who prefer AF over VF and vice versa. The comments on this vid and my AF3 review one certainly have shown the AF3 works amazingly well for some.
@@TimGrose I’m honored. I spent last fall trying to maintain my natural cadence (178-182’ish) while lengthening my stride. I added about 10-12cm consistently, which while not a lot is something.
I also find max stack/rockered shoes… hard to maintain my natural cadence. The AF has always been in there. I tend to run around 172-176 in those shoes… which I find makes me work harder over longer runs. Part of why I’m spending so much time in max stack shoes lately is to see if it’s just a matter of getting used to running in them.
Good idea for a video. I added it to my ideas list. I need to run in the AF3 first though… that seems like it will be a while. 🤷🏼♂️
@@SagasuRunning I would say 10-12 cm is actually quite a lot but were you doing that by essentially running "harder" and so a higher HR/power? Logically a longer stride for same cadence means you speed up. Rockered shoes I do wonder if I miss the memo a lot there. Only shoe I felt was really quite a "rocker" feeling was NB1080 v10 but not necessarily in a good way. As for AF3 I saw a vid yesterday where a British guy visiting Dubai walked into a shopping mall there and bought a pair and only the other day as well. Bizarre!
@@TimGrose I don’t look at power often, I use HR still, but I remember it being similar. But my cadence and HR were in the range I wanted. Even now, 4 months post working innit, in my easy running I still see the gain in my stride length.
As for rockers… shoes they have a more aggressive rocker, meaning they start further back in the shoe, the 60-75% of the shoe work better for me. The further back towards the midpoint of the shoe the better. If I ever get a pair of Adidas Evo1s or its rocker geometry makes it way to the Adios Pro 4 I think that could finally be the shoe that gets me to move on from a Vaporfly. We shall see this year.
Rockers that are further forward (Nimbus 26, Adios Pro 3, Sky+) seem to favor a slower cadence and require a slower turnover than feels natural to me. So they feel like they are “getting in my way”, I’d include the Alphafly here too. But I’m curious to feel the AF3 underfoot still, but can’t see how it can better the VF3 for me…
Seems like a rough session. Hope YOU are doing ok! I'm definitely with you in preferring the vaporfly to the alphafly, although I haven't tried v3 in either. I much prefer (and still have) the vaporlfy v1 and preserve it by doing workouts in the Puma nitro elite v2
Not too bad thanks. Yeah seems to be some who prefer the Vaporfly and others the Alphafly. I haven’t tried that Puma one. Heard it is good for train in at least.
Hi Tim, I definitely think the shoe width is got to be having an impact. I did a bit of checking and the alpha's come back as some of the widest out there. Both the vapourfly and alphafly have a spoon shaped carbon plate. My humble opinion fwiw is that for narrower feet the carbon plate won't be optimally positioned on the alpha's ... i think you mentioned somewhere towards the start of the video that the alpha plate was rubbing or something.
I always see comments from runners with wide feet that "narrow" shoes cause them issues so logically the reverse has to be true and indeed I normally try and avoid shoes that are wide or rather soon realise they aren't optimal for me. TBF though it is easier to "adapt" a wider shoe to "fit" a narrow foot than other way but in a shoe like this the plate size, outsole and Air Pods size etc etc are always fixed and presume designed to "fit" a perceived average foot shape for the size/length of the shoe. I certainly always feel I have "too much shoe" in the Alphaflys
Great effort and attention to detail in the testing. I’m glad the Vaporfly works for you. Do you think the air pods on the Alphaflys factor into the difference? I didn’t care much for the Alphafly 1 but it remains my half marathon PR shoe. The bounce and rebound work for me I suppose. I suspect the AF3 would perform better if I tried them. Thanks.
I am never quite sure what the Air Pods are doing for me - if anything. Got to think they add a bit of weight over just ZoomX and I noticed straight away a slightly softer feel in the VF3. I do feel some more "bounce" in the AF3 but the relatively heavier weight of them in my UK 13 size (AF3 290g, VF3 255g) means I always have a feeling of having to "lift" the Alphaflys off the ground.
Oops ! I'm late! Better kate than never tho let's watch!
Hope you were out running as your excuse :)
@TimGrose actually patient had an emergency. So running in some sense
@@fabsterun ah hope they pulled through...
@@TimGrose they did
As someone who has never wore a VaporFly, I have been extremely happy with the AlphaFly V3. I liked the AF V1, but up until recently didn't feel I was a strong enough runner to get the most out of the shoe. I loved the AF V2, but it was clearly overbuilt and clunky...I never realize how much until I wore the AF V3. The V3 is the most comfortable shoe I own....which I still can't believe. It's smooth, stable and efficient as hell! The level of RPE/HR reduction I am seeing in the AF V3 vs the AF V1, V2 and Tempo Next% is very clear. Which I still doubt and keep testing to get more data....but I'm about ready to just give up and accept the shoe is just that good (for me personally).
Ah that's interesting that you haven't tried any VF. If I was to restrict this sort of test to the AF1/AF2/AF3 and Tempo NEXT% I may well conclude that the AF3 is the "best" (of them) for me. Certainly it is the lightest of those. Have you tried any other "super" shoes from other brands? Like say Adios Pro 3, Endorphin Pro 3, Endorphin Elite, Rocket X2 all of which I also have.
@@TimGrose I've used a few other plated shoes/super trainers, but none of the level that the AF provides (Endo Speed V1,3, Boston 12, Takumi Sen8, Puma Deviate Elite V1...probably a few others in there).
Been tempted to try the VF V3 with the recent changes, but since the AF (airpod setup) works well for me, still don't feel the need, since I focus on half/full marathons and don't run true 5k race efforts often.
@@timtrenholm3698for example Endorphin Elite is like an smooth Alphafly. Very underated shoe.
Interesting Shoe-off. I did the VF3 vs. AF3 vs. AF1 vs. VF2 Shoe-off, but mostly based on feel on a treadmill.
It was a bigger difference than I thought it would be. After running in the AF3, the VF3 felt like a Saucony Speed 3... in a bad way. Like a light, soft, medium snappy trainer. 🙂
The AF3 improved all of my running data; lower HR, lower vert. bounce, longer stride, shorter contact time and a nice cadence.
I will keep the AF3 and VF2, and sell off the VF3 and AF1.
I think the AF3 will be hard to beat, but that Puma Fast-R Elite 2 is speaking to me...
Really interesting that we are so different. Seems to be a theme developing that runners tend to love the AF3 (or any AF TBH) or not and it is does not necessarily seem to be shoe size related as I sort of feel it is for me as the AF just are so much "more shoe" than a VF in my size. That said can I ask what size you are and what sort of times you do? As for the running dynamics lower HR is obviously great but some of others just seem individual. So a longer stride is great if you means go faster but if cadence falls as a result then ends up the same with possibly more effort to keep that up. Also am puzzled how you can have both a longer stride and a lower VO? I have always seen higher VO in Alphafly which seems logical as it "feels" bouncy, perhaps a slightly lower cadence and so a bit longer stride as a result. Maybe that is not so natural for me and why I might struggle to run like that for too long. Despite my height my cadence has always been fairly high. Even going fairly easy generally see around 180 and higher when going faster.
@@TimGrose Yes, I was a bit surprised myself of the data my Garmin spat out. It had me at a 8% VO, and I'm always around 10%.
I have the AF3 in US 12.5. I'm a (very) slow runner with probably a pretty weird running gait, so perhaps that AF3 is just a random "perfect storm" for me?
But the outsole wear on the AF3 is just abysmal! It's like they are using eraser-type rubber for the outsole. I will have to restrict the AF3 use to only races if I want any sort of longevity what so ever...
No surprises here. As I commented recently, the weight difference in my size 40 EU is very small(barely 10g between AF3 and VF3) but the AF is such a massive shoe, it really feels like you have much more on foot.
Some of the replies here and on my review vid are interesting in that for some others the AF3 does seem to be their "new" favourite shoe and feel can run fastest in it. I think well maybe they have more "average" size feet than me and the relative size and feel of it (as you say it feels have more on your feet than you do) is less noticeable as an issue. However likes of Ben Parkes loves them with almost as big as feet as me and you with smaller feet don't. So fascinating to fathom what it is about the shoe that "works" for some but not others.
Good analysis. I am curious, since you have Stryd could you include some of Stryd provided params? I am interested in LSS and FPR comparisons...
Have to admit that I have stopped using my Stryd as never really felt it was doing a lot for me and in these sort of tests the reliability & indeed consistency (or not) of Air Power often skewed the results. I never found any obvious difference in power between shoes as mostly all the variability was related to pace (or Air Power!). FPR is that Form Power? If so that is a metric I never saw anything meaningful for me. LSS again sort of interesting but again not sure what it told me. Remember once somebody saying wow your LSS is high. I then thought great but how I do run faster than I do as a result.
@@TimGrose FPR is the ratio of form power to total power and lower numbers are better. Basically when lower you are using more of the power for running as opposed to metabolic costs of maintaining the running form. LSS is the model of elastic energy in the leg. Higher numbers indicate more energy return. I think they would have been good metrics to look at. Higher LSS is considered better. Higher LSS does not necessarily mean higher efficiency however. You could be slightly lower in LSS wearing another shoe but more efficient for other factors.
@@TimGrose About air power. Today was a very windy day on my long run. The entire run average wind power was 3% but if I look at the KM splits Wind power was up to 7% for a couple of splits and instantaneous max was 17%. I think looking at wind power on the entire run basis might not be very revealing. The wind power chart has a big variation even when average is very low for the split.
Again, no surprises here after having seen your session on Strava. If and when I eventually try these it’ll strictly be for long runs and marathon pace work.
Windy conditions aren’t helping at the moment - my session later I think will need to be on feel. Storm Jocelyn is immediately following Isha!
I wonder if they'll ever name a storm Daniels ....
Other day I was complaining about the cold now it is the wind and rain. In the summer we will complain it is too hot & humid - remember Vets AC 5000 at Tooting :)
Might Trump the other ones :)
@@TimGrose I do! I’m expert at making excuses 😂
@@josephgonzalez_ it is not the weather, it is your shoes falling apart :)
If Kiptum sees this he'll change to the VF3 and run 1:58 in his next marathon but Nike will not be happy.
I recall he won London in a pair of black/pink VF2 that I also have. "Oddly" I don't seem to be able to go as fast as him in those either :) Joking aside it is interesting how seemingly different runners respond differently in different shoes.
Yeah, I have the same problem - I have the AF1 and can't run a marathon under 2 hours. Obviously Nike sold me a defective pair of shoes ... 😎@@TimGrose
I added a 6 mm heel wedge and use my Alphafly V1 for long runs.. Amazing shoe but not for me for racing. Vaporfly V2 so much more natural and fast.
Interesting and surprising you need to do that. Think I would have given up on a shoe if needed to raise my heel that much. That said it is a "trick" my physio has had me doing few years ago when had really bad Achilles. I was glad to get rid of them when the Achilles improved not least because the ones I had added about 50g to the shoes!
@@TimGrose Yes they add weight.. But it's the V1 so OK.. I actually ran a couple of times and put them in my box for 6+ month thinking about selling them.. Then I thought why not try to fix them. Maximum you destroy them.. So I took out the insole and put in a old Saucony one. Problem with arches solved. But still I could only use them for short fast runs up to 5k and they were very unstable on bad roads. So as a last resort I add a heel wedge.. Shoe became stable.. Air pods began to feel comfortable.. Now I can just take them for a 10 miles easy run and enjoy. I am trying to get the Alphafly V2 on sale..
I wonder if the GCTB was affected by the camber on the roadside?
Good pojnt! I checked the section on the "quiet" country lane (Goose Lane) that I did in the VF3 in the 3 min reps and also for the last blast up it and the 3 min ones did seem to also have the rough 52-48 ratio which TBF is what I normally see for any pace. I have got some one minute reps tomorrow so will have another chance to check this out.
@@TimGrose BTW you missed nothing at The National Running Show…!
Would like to see the results with VF on for the first half of a session then followed by the AF.
It takes me a couple of miles to get moving these days (52) - could that have affected the earlier slower paces in the AF.
Great video - Thanks
I did do a mile warm up and sort of the first rep of the 8 was a bit of a "feeler" but think certainly reps 2, 3 & 4 in the AF3 were "normal" ones. That said, have to admit it wasn't the most scientific of tests but probably the biggest factor for me is that I just feel happier running in the VF3 over the AF3 and I think that certainly contributes to performance as well as the relative specs and tech in the shoes.
Thanks for the reply - all the best for future running
I think you would get better performances with the AF3 by increasing stride lenght (even if decreasing cadence)
Yeah possibly but easier said than done I feel. Increasing stride length generally means going faster and/or running in an unnatural way. As it is I feel the AF3 already wants me to try and run with longer stride and lower cadence and you can sort of see that in the numbers of this Shoeoff as my cadence was noticeably lower in the AF3.
Really exciting video 👍 Love data 🤗. It just goes to show that we are all different. And one shoe may not work for everyone. Alphafly V1 works best for me. haven't tried version 3. But Vaporfly doesn't work very well for me. I don't feel it helps me that much.
Fascinating indeed that different shoes work better for some than others. So is it Air Pods that make all the difference for you? Any AF version just feels clumpy to me. I kind of feel that a VF is a just bit closer to a racing flat that I wore for years and perhaps where the shoe isn't necessarily "helping" but equally I don't feel it is making me run differently or indeed am overly aware of a shoe.
@@TimGrose I do not know what it is. Like you, I have been running for many years. and a pair of Vaporfly feels more like a traditional running shoe I used before. so it's not because i don't like them. But I don't know what it is about Vaporfly. it fits well on my foot and feels light. But it gives me absolutely nothing back compared to a pair of Alphafly or Prime X V1. But they also give me extremely much back. Yesterday I participated in an online race. And I actually ran in a pair of Vaporflys. the race was 7 km. and I tried to run a little in the same way as I always do, save energy so I can run the last km faster. But yesterday there I simply died. And couldn't even keep up my pace for the last km. And it has happened several times now in Vaporflys. Maybe it's something mental. But I don't think so now because I ran the same pace in a pair of Adidas Prime X 2 14 days ago. Which I think are way too heavy to run fast in. But despite that. I ran the last km at a faster pace. And I am 100% sure that I could have run faster in them if I had paced the race a little differently. Which makes no sense. I guess I'm just a little weird 🤔
@@JS-Treadmill-Running Maybe it is mental. After all when we did start thinking our shoes not our fitness and/or freshness are to blame as it were. I have had good races and considerably less so in all VF versions. Indeed my perhaps best performance in last 2 years (a 37 something 10K) was in VF2 and the version I probably would say I like the least. I guess for me it is always been about fit and a light feel and having a shoe that wants to work with me or rather does not want to do something else which I sort of feels the AF does. I also think if I am absolutely all out I can't think of anything bar perhaps where is the finish line. If I start thinking about my shoes it rarely will be a good run.
@@TimGrose The mental definitely comes into play. Unfortunately, I have suffered an injury to my head. so I can't stand being with too many people in the same place. Plus my head affects my running a lot. That's why I mostly participate in online races on Zwift. And I can simply push myself more when I have the right shoes on. Which I can see on my heart rate. example, if I don't run in carbon shoes, I usually run with a lower heart rate. Which is strange. But that's just the way it is. Perhaps the reason is also that after my accident with my head I couldn't run for two years. And it wasn't until I got a pair of Alphaflys. I need a lot of protection from impact from the ground and at the time there were no shoes that had the same shock absorption as the Alphafly. I think that's why I have such a great love for them. but example with your video just shows. that the most important thing is to listen to yourself. And don't get carried away by the fact that a lot of UA-camrs think it's the best shoe in the world. we are so different in height, weight, shoe size plus many other things that play a role in choosing the right shoe. It's just great that there is someone who will stand forward and come up with an example like you have done. especially for the perhaps less experienced runners who don't know what works best for them. And believe that Alphafly is the best shoe for everyone
@@JS-Treadmill-Running Good that have found a way to enjoy your running. I used to do an awful lot of Zwift running and even a 19 something 5K race in the AF1. So they can "work" for me. So bouncy on a treadmill. I found Zwift races mentally probably harder than IRL as you see the exact pace and mentally do you have the ability to hold it or even to up the pace. A few times on hard treadmill sessions of races I have literally had to ease off as just could not feel could keep going. IRL I find you just more naturally slow. Also I found it better on Zwift to start slow and build up whereas outside in 5K I just normally go off a bit quick. Yeah these tests show different shoes work best for different runners and perhaps why Nike decided to keep the VF line when it seemed the AF1 was sort of introduced as the ultimate race shoe.
🚀 Tim 🚀speedy in any shoe!!! No surprises here … VF fans probably won’t be won over by the AF3, and from comments on your last video it seems that AF fans sure are loving it though!! Soooo, have you had any offers to buy them yet???
So will you sell the alphafly or use for training and the odd half marathon race. Going by that the vaporfly for me, as it's lighter. But until I try, I will never know, lol.
I'll keep the AF3 as kind of feel it is important (well to me) to have the "top" shoes for props or, like this, if want do some real world testing. Given the number of brand new pairs still sitting on StockX even in my UK 13 (9 pairs) then not sure what get that much back especially as mine have done over 50 miles and got a blood stain on the insole when I had the blood blister. Nice :)
@TimGrose fair enough. I always find it hard to find the right socks to wear in my spikes and different brand trainers. As shoes can feel too loose or too tight at times.
Would it of been a better test if you alternated shoes between each rep to account for drift? Annoying way to run a test though lol
It would yes I agree for the most scientific test. Aside from the annoyance you mention it would change the nature of the session with the inevitable lot longer rest while you change shoes. My coach had set me 8 x 3 mins, 90s walk/jog recovery. It look about 3.5 minutes to change shoes so I don't think changed the nature of the session too much (and so done what I was told LOL) but would have done if had changed shoes every time with all that rest. I could have perhaps done them in sets of 2 but equally was getting dark and a storm was building up :) I think my main "test" here was to confirm which shoe I liked to run in more. No surprises there. Thinking about it, a good shoeoff test which I have done before and changed shoes every time is Lasso 800s. That effectively works out for me as 8x800 (or pretty much 8 x 3 mins) but with 3 mins recovery. Can hit the reps faster as a result. One for another time...
I have both vf3 and af3. Vf3 feels faster but timing wise af3 is faster.
Perception vs reality.
Either way both shoes r great.
I have got another shoeoff video due out tomorrow (Mon 16th Sep) featuring both of these and some others. That seems to confirm again that, for me at least, the VF3 is better but can totally understand might be the opposite way round for others. Out of interest what shoe size are you? My theory is the Alphafly gets relatively a lot heavier in the larger sizes like what I am - UK 13/US 14.
@@TimGroseim us9. Maybe thats the reason. I guess for us11 and below alphafly is better, but for larger sizes vaporfly wins.
@@junjun906 certainly on relative weight differences but equally personal preference. AF3 for me also has a wider base and, on this run, I felt the plate more which did not really like. I'll have to do a longer run comparison at some point as clearly both shoes are aimed to be able to run somewhat longer than a mile. I've used both for sessions where I did over 10 miles in total but not as continuous runs.
1600m grass field race which one is best?? alphafly 3 or vaporfly 3
Kind of depends how dry and firm the grass is on shoe choices for that sort of race. If it is dry and firm then whichever shoe you like best. For me clearly would be VF3. If not either may not be good. Unless the ground was rock hard I would probably opt for spikes like the Dragonfly.
Looks like you have a pair of "Chelsea Tractors!"
Ha ha yes - very expensive shoes that don't appear to be doing a lot for me. At least I am wearing a road shoe on a road as opposed to trail shoes on a road like the Ultrafly - now they are perhaps even better described as that.
It seems like running in running shoes vs running in basketball shoes.
It was certainly one of the biggest changes between shoes in all the shoeoffs have done. That said it seems many runners may well feel the order is the other way round but I thought this test was conclusive for myself.
That ain’t HR drift mate. You were working harder. That couldn’t be more obvious. Significantly higher Hr too.
That is HR drift in the main! A fair number of fairly hard intervals then I would always expect my average HR on each rep to be rising throughout the session. Perhaps though another key factor is that the VF3 just allowed me to feel I could go faster whatever the HR was.
I ll stick to my vf’s 1,2,3 ta very much they are jets on feet 😂
Yeah seems I will be doing the same.