what's going on with mapping
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2024
- mapping in osu! is one of those things you hear about all the time, but never look into because it's absurdly complicated in every way. recent developments in the ranking system may change your perspective though.
in this video, pishifat walks through some mapping stuff that was discussed here: osu.ppy.sh/home/news/2024-06-...
if you're curious how the ranking system was perceived in the past, watch this: • osu!mapping: cycles of...
00:00 - an average day in mapping
02:42 - where to propose changes
03:03 - becoming a beatmap nominator
05:43 - you are a beatmap nominator
07:19 - how to join the NAT
08:15 - subjectivity makes people mad - Ігри
was not expecting an official osu video explaining the recent mapping drama 💀💀
real
same
real
same
Pishi lost his channel password
pishifat making a mapping video in 2024? WE ARE SO BACK IT WAS NEVER OVER TO BEGIN WITH
frfrfrfr
we came full circle on this one
it s more about calming the community
hello there 😊
@@zekzero0727 if we're still on lazer it would be triangles
The path to becoming a NAT member is hilariously similar to the path to becoming a Cardinal in the catholic church
The freaking table at 8:52 with sotarks
It would be funny if he's excluded for the recent drama around that guy or just because he's just that *special*
@@strangegamer-si Well, prob because he is the mapper
notice how more than half of the nat's disagree too lmao
@@jrtta42 is greater than 50. math
@@elycrow bro doesnt realise that 58% of nat disagrees and 42% agrees. talk about math lmao
The bit about tags is such a good idea. The curation of what beatmaps
someone can select to play should be done my the player themselves.
and the tags are a great way to make it easier
iirc Steam has a similar system for games, tags are user-defined (maybe with a set of initial tags from the devs, idk how that works)
I agree. Really looking forward to participating in tagging old maps if that's something we players will be able to do
Honestly, with that it will be so much easier to filter specific skill sets for osu!mania maps and I will no longer need to filter through thousands of discord messages in 10 different servers to find maps that I want to practice on for a better more balanced skill set.
@@cryptic2121 if they add these tags, obviously it will have search terms both on site and ingame, because that quite literally is the entire point of it
inb4 locked behind supporter
nice
a bit disappointed about the lack of "hello there" in this video tho
Hello there
sotark
can you make again some kind of harumachi map? we need it we waited so long for farm maps.
Thanks for saving mapping sotarks
sotar
1:01 "Players don't have a voice in the ranked section. It's always been this way really, the system is dominated by mappers and just getting involved in a ranking system this deeply rooted in mapping culture is extremely difficult for players."
Since I dove a little bit into the inception of the ranked section via forum posts etc., I think this is an interesting comment because I think it's fairly "obvious" that this was never intended to happen and nobody really predicted it would, 17y ago at least.
This is eyup's comment from October 2007 in response to the question of how beatmaps get selected to become part of the "official beatmap list":
"Well it's pretty subjective at the moment, but basically the timing needs to be perfect, and the notes should make sense and fall in the right places. I guess we might have to tighten up the rules somewhat if the number of beatmaps being created gets really out of hand."
I think that the system was conceived during a time when the distance between players and mappers was much, much, MUCH thinner. At MOST during the time of this post, you could have roughly one month of mapping experience.
peppy himself comments this just two posts later (there's more to it than just this, but this is the relevant snippet):
"Generally unless the beatmap is perfect (there have been a few of these ;)) we wait for at least one other mod/respected person's opinion before adding to official listing."
Over time, this small emphasis of "at least one other mod/respected person's opinion" seems to have ballooned into a completely unpredictable scale as what it takes to offer a "mod/respected person's opinion" has evolved eons past what it was in 2007.
So while it's in some capacity true that players have never had a voice in the ranked section, I think that the voice and perspective of mappers has changed exponentially over the years while those of the players have grown at a much steadier rate, outpaced and left to rot in the wake of mappers collectively pushing the craft and actively building on shared knowledge.
It makes sense that the perspective of players has been outpaced considering the ranking process has always only considered mapping quality, starting from 2008 when Beatmap Approval Team was formed. "the BAT were responsible for evaluating the quality of beatmaps and deciding what content made its way into the Ranked section". Ranked maps are not defined by pp or 'fun'. Interestingly, not even the loved section is immune to quality control, as seen from the Goodbye Moonmen loved attempt. Map quality as a criteria will become more and more as the amount of maps increases, just as eyup predicted. Ultimately, it depends on peppy to decide what the meaning of ranked is (minimum quality requirement) and what kind of game he wants osu! to be.
Goodbye moonman was denied by player actually since it got trough the votes and got denied with 55% of no i think.@@esper3012
old timer here. Haven't interacted with the community at all in like a decade but... even back then, during my last couple years of activity I realized gatekeeping the Ranked section was of no use, and really the right way forward was to let everyone curate and play the maps they like. You can't really say what a "rankable" or a "good" map is - just get it to a basic standard then let people choose. Let the play statistics show what maps the community loves. Let the community choose.
I had not envisioned tags like these but I am so so glad they are coming, it just feels amazing and exciting for what's to come.
Loved this video, thanks so much pishi.
4:20 funny transition
And at 420
I like the change of giving less power to the NAT to rank map, because that way there will be a wider range of map styles.
Beatmap tags would be amazing, it's really hard to find maps that train specific skillsets unless you go through spreadsheets of 10 year old beatmaps, so being able to find them in the official osu search or look them up in the beatmap selection would be absolutely sick
Pishi I think you uploaded on the wrong channel, this is about mapping…
😂
@SubTheEevee NOT HERE TOO
I hope the tag system can be expanded to local beatmap organization and optionally replace collections. I often want to search for maps that are both in collection A and collection B, and there's currently no way to do that.
Kind of like how Apple implemented the App Library where every app on the App Store already has a broad category assigned to them, and it just sorts the apps you have downloaded into folders called "Social Media" or "Entertainment" or "Travel" etc.
Best thing to happen in osu! since cookiezi's unban. Big ups Peppy for being the voice of the players!
saving osu since forever
didnt want to watch this video initially, but glad i did.
As a tournament host that work with all sorts of conventional and unconventional maps, i have developed a sense for "purpose" as appose to "quality".
there can be "great" maps that fulfills a very specific task that others cannot and vice versa.
therefore, i never really bothered with the "ranking" status of maps. maps are maps (dont cherry pick, you know what i meanXD)
but as mapping continues to evolve (and players keep on getting better), it is inevitable more disagreements would arise.
honestly, i am not involved/ knowledgeable enough to give any feedback or predictions. i can only sit and watch the future as it unfolds.
but letting more people know about the current status of mapping is a good call, well done.
ps. yoooo tags? mappoolers will finally lose their jobs? LETS GOOOOOOO
welcomed changes, love the idea for tags, basically osu!collector but for individual beatmaps
This is a good change. I'm so fed up of the NAT circle jerk, vetoing maps because it didn't fit their criteria over what the community as a whole wants. The last time I saw drama was the veto of Valley of the Vale which I thought was totally wrong. Ranking needs to be relaxed to a more community based approach otherwise you just have the same style of maps being ranked over and over again.
NAT getting actively dismantled and crying ? I used to pray for times like this.
if wafers artpiece deserves ranked status, so does sotarkspiece.
I hope the ranking process became less harsh with this changes, the ranking process was always hard but it looks that if you are not "inovating" you will never have a chance to a BN to be interested in your map, most of them don't wan't to lose their time ranking something that is simple just because the amount of effourt it takes to a BN check everything in a map to approve, why do we need take an original mp3 in a game that is community made and have no copyright of anything?
ufff tags!!!! finally
These videos are consistently great. I appreciate the behind the scenes look at a topic that is not necessarily as fun to cover.
Some of the out of ranked mapping standards are on LOVED section. It needed a community vote to nominate it.
this is just like the old pishifat videos i love it
i swear to god getting my phd is easier than getting my beatmap ranked
Awesome idea about the tag implementation, super exited.
I wish they just made it so leaderboards weren't gatekept by map status so that the community can enjoy the social aspect of performance on everyone's maps without putting more pressure on what gets ranked. Would also be nice if ranking your first map without contacts didn't take years depending on how much luck and energy you have, we are tiring out new and excited makers with arbitrary expectations and systems staffed by the same few status/attention sponges
These all seem like great changes :) The new vetoing system as well as the focus of objective rankability seem like great ways to make sure that every player will find maps they enjoy in the ranked section! Looking forward to tags!
I believe that the ranked section being more lenient with the tags system in place would be the best decision!! That way, as you said, players themselves can decide what they do and don't play, while having more knowledge on what maps are the types they want to play.
Really good video please keep making these!
Old osu! player here, starting somewhere in 2013 iirc, have had a several year break from playing but recently started to come back since I found these devlogs. I am very happy you take this approach to involve the community more in the games development.
Oh, and beatmap tags sounds awesome :)
tags are going to be awesome! ive always been having issues finding maps
Are we not talking about nats letting their friends in bng jst to circlejerk with them
I think tags should really make it easier to get different maps ranked. No longer will every map evaluated on just "is it a good ranked map", it will become "is it a good map".
The tags could be even automated to a small extent: if a map gives way more aim pp than tap pp, it's more likely to be a jump map, and vice versa.
I think that was the initial reason why people wanted a pp breakdown on the results screen in lazer (but in the current state where it's displayed as 0-100% it's pretty much useless).
Back when stable had separate "local" and "real" star ratings, I was able to judge by the difference between the two values whether the map is more balanced or leaning towards one skill.
My point is: we could automatically detect at least basic things like a map being a jump map or a stream map, etc.
a new pishifat mapping video? in 2024? my dreams have come true
We need more videos like this
BEATMAP TAGS SOUNDS AWESOME can't wait to see it :)
PISHIFAT MAPPING VIDEO WE’RE SO BACK
I love it when pishifat talks about osu!mapping~~~
i just wanna comment on the future map tags: THANK FREAKING GOD!! im a casual and ive been waiting for this ever since i started playing this game in 2015 holy moly. although no shade to peppy but i feel like BOTH mappers and users could be involved in tags. idk how that could be implemented but i feel like it would make more sense since mappers or nominators know what they are doing for a map?
I don’t even know how to remove a slider in the Lazer editor. Very informative, thank you,
Add 24k to mania, 24 keys = 2 full piano octaves (C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B... The same for the other hand) i could practice my piano skills in osu
It would be cool if we had a skill radar for each map similar to IIDX and Etterna. That way it’s easier to find a map you like since there will be more variety now
love you peppy
I cant wait for the tag feature! This is one thing that the game needs. No longer will I have to create a collection for every single type of map in the game.
Wow, didn't think osu mapping politics go this deep
i hope there is tag for "awkward aim"
I love this video! Can you make a video explaining how to get more involved in the development of osu!? I have wanted to get involved in the development of the game for a while, but haven't really been sure where to start or what skills are needed to begin. Theres the issues on github, though without any familiarity with the code structure I'm not sure how to even begin working on it, though I am a novice developer.
pishi i love your map rage of poseidon
why does this guy have like THE PERFECT narrator voice??
All these changes are good :)
I hope tags are customizable so we can tag maps "why is this ranked!?" and "why isn't this ranked???"
That's insane, i saw the github repo, and i thought myself : today i'm sure there is gonna a patch note... And there we are !!!
wasn't expecting a thirst trap video on osu
Personally, I think something like Spotlights (more organised though) done by the game for excellent maps would be amazing.
Most of the maps I really love are spotlight maps ^_^
why does NAT exists i don't understand please explain
in my perspective NAT looks like a bunch of weird people that hate every mapper
im still waiting for another aspire
old school pishi save me ...
i'm still not sure how the ranking system works, i'm always confused when i see loved beatmap that feels amazing to play not being ranked and stay like that forever but i take out of this vidéo is that tags for gameplay style are coming ? i'm hyped for that, it always kind of feels like a lottery when you play a map for the first time and when you want to play a specific style it's troublesome to find
if it's loved like that, chances are the difficulty spread is too thin or there aren't lower difficulties
I would love a tap-map mode where I can just tap to the song and then it will let me place the circles in the order I tapped to the song.
I hope the changes will enable a wider variety of music genres to pop up in ranked. I have a lot of friends who don't want to just play anime beatmaps
HYPE
this guy seems to know a lot about mapping, I think he should do a tutorial series of sorts, you know, to help beginner mappers
watching this exactly at 3am
When it's going to be possible to publish a map from osu! lazer client? And like when the rest of the stable beatmap editor features gonna be added to lazer too? I'm sorry if it's clarified somewhere, I genuinely have no idea T_T
i honestly do not care that much about ranked map since i play on map I , myself, found fun not for rank so i'm not concerned about 99% of the video but the tag things i LOVE it. btw if y'all want to make the comunity more involveld for the previous map of the week idea maybe selecting it by a comunity vote from a selection or somethings and making that same map ranked. also as someone who follow osu new mostly from youtube recommendation when i came across one making those poll anouncement also within the game as a "official osu" pm or somethings can make people more aware of it and potentially make them feel more involved/listened even if they don't participate in it (potentially with the option to deactivate it for those who really don't care or are anoyed by it)
Welcome to Osu!~
aku rindu map lama
W changes right here
good video
dt ranked when!!!
whats the median rank/skill level of BMs? ive been thinking of trying it out but im not sure if im even worth nominating maps considering the most i can do is high fcs on 6 stars and bs to low as on 7 stars.
BNs have a pretty wide range of rank. I'm nearly 500k but I've been BN/qat/nat on and off for 6 years without too many problems. To an extent experience modding can compensate for a lack of skill playing as long as you understand what you're looking at.
In my case I usually stay out of super high sr map discussions when I think I can't judge it properly, or if it's a map I really want to push I'll just ask other people for test plays to get more ideas on if something needs work or not.
People are usually happy to test play for this kind of thing! I really appreciate it when they do.
@@Noffy i see, guess ill have to look more into it, thanks
i thought id never see the day
idk why the NATs would resign over losing the ability to punish BNs getting maps to Ranked they have SUBJECTIVE problems with.
If there was smth OBJECTIVE about the map to complain, why not say so while its still only Qualified? Thats what the vetoes are for, right?
Letting the NATs whack anyone who ranks stuff they dont like led us into this situation
It just seems those NAT hate losing their power position
They just have a higher expectation of what should get ranked or not. But how things run currently, you can rank pretty much maps with the bare minimum of quality.
It’s like sharing a room with an other person. While you try to use your space wisely and efficient, the other person buys every junk they can find on ebay.
So yeah, I can’t be mad at them for wanting to leave their position after realizing that future changes will all be against their vision.
elitism
I don’t know any of the NATs, but I would assume there were some with genuinely good intentions, who had enough of the hate they got and simply resigned.
Maybe I’m wrong though and it really is all about losing their power
a few of them were going to cool-off and leave for a while anyways, majorly tilting them just advanced the timeline considerably for some.
Debating for days on end about your vision while being told "the thing you've been doing for the past few years is wrong" is obviously frustrating and the stress that comes with it is immense
all the NAT are there because they love the game so having one of the last means to very very very softly assert some sort of quality standard (however skewed towards "mappers") completely invalidated is obviously frustrating
@@Okoratu very very very softly assert some sort of quality standard = unranking or vetoing any map that doesn't fit with their art school project vision, because that's what the game is all about.
The NAT is like the Dutch government, keeps collapsing
wait actual cinema
i think we are overcomplicating this problem when its very simple from the core : people just want fun maps (yes fun is subjective) but if most players like the map (for ex the stream map that phishi mentioned) why not rank it? arnt mappers supposed to make content for players to enjoy or are we just turning the ranked section into who can make the best artpiece,its a circle game for god sake nobody cares about your good looking 360 degree line,if it plays like shit and looks good,people wont bother playing it more than once,you cant just rank it and ''expect people to just play it'' thats just ignorant and naive at best (speaking from experience as a mapper for 6 years).
Poor performance reflects my current skill gap rather than inherent mapping flaws. This mindset helps me eliminate the notion of "bad maps," focusing instead on personal growth and mastering diverse skillset
"arent mappers supposed to make content for players to enjoy" believe it or not there are a lot of people who enjoy the maps that you are implying are trash
@@skellers7175 yeah but those people are the exception not the rule (i know 3 people like that on my friendlist),you still need to make your maps ''objectively'' fun meaning not annoying and not boring (this can be extremly difficult at times) but thats what makes it fun at least for me
Is there any way you guys can transfer our tablet settings from stable onto lazer? No matter how hard I try I can't make the hitbox exactly how I had it in stable.
just turn the lazer tablet setting off, youll keep your current tablet driver settings
Usualy I just look at a good map with the same bpm as my map and it's fine
watching this at 3am instead of studying
Tags😍
Can we get an Osu! SKIN Editor adds to the osu! Lazer So The Community could Edit their own skin In Osu! Lazer efficiently?
man i just want my map ranked
finally
W changes
I thought it was a lazer update video 😞
mappers should be able to add tags too
Please fix mania 4k star rating. Easy vibro that a beginner could s rank is higher than epsilon.
vibro like that isn't getting ranked though, so people don't have a problem with it
the big problem right now is long notes, which have a star rating rework in processing right now
i've also heard rumors of a potential "chord complexity" rework that may or may not happen awhile into the future that will help adjust chordjack sr too
play Etterna.
@@Ilikewater-andice i do, i just play mania too because i like more variety than rice dump
No "hello there"?
2:45 that me
rank beach life in death
at 10:18 im in that lobby lol
I was the last ever person to take the BN test X))
wtf is going on at 1:14
My friend’s in there
7:18 what song and or map is that in the background?
Ayeee
pishifat please fix Mapping i hate sliders
👀