Tina Fey's Racial Humor
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Have you noticed how often Tina Fey brings up race in her work? It's kind of awkward.
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1:35 Correction: Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt was released in 2015, not 2016!
I really like her racial commentary because it doesn't seem to come from a place of white guilt, but rather a genuine understanding of black people that most white people don't have. It may not be her lane to talk about it, but it's not like anyone listens to black people, or that black people have enough privilege or influence to write social commentary into such a popular show.
@Jack K It's the "Eye of Truth" from FullMetal Alchemist Brotherhood.
Giving the wrong year for a release date... Typical SJW Fake News. 😂😂😂
It comes across as very weak to criticize something and then say it's fine..why do you do that? You literally say "its fine..just disappointing." What? Then its not fine. I wonder how honest you're being is all. Kinda disappointing..but its fine.
@@mindlander do you think weak is inherently bad?
my single "my single is dropping" is dropping
Lindsay Ellis *gasps* The Queen is here, and she’s quoting one of my favorite 30 Rock episodes!!!!
Holy shit nostalgia chic's out here
Lindsay Ellis marry me ❤️
UA-camRS WATCH UA-cam THIS IS SO COoOL OMG
I think about this joke at least four times a year
I think even if she doesn't handle it well, I wouldn't say that race isn't "in her lane". A lot of the humor around race as presented in her work has to do with the awkwardness and uncomfortableness of upper class liberal white people when interacting with actual people of color and the dissonance between their ideals and their inability to actually relate naturally to people of color. Again, it's not always handled well, but that is definitely part of Fey's experience of the world.
White people experience race too--it shapes American society--it can't not affect us. Privilege blindness often keeps us from seeing this, but I would argue Fey is more aware of her own privilege than most white comedians and that is part of why race comes up in her work.
That being said, she never quite gets past the self-awareness of her privilege into real empathy and awareness of the experiences of people of color. Her work is consistently self-centered (I mean 30 Rock is about being a comedy writer at NBC...). I guess I would argue that her problem is actually that she doesn't step far enough out of her own lane to really get to the other side.
I guess I just don't understand how or why that's a problem. Are people obligated to try to generate empathy for people of all walks of life in their creative work? That doesn't just sound restrictive, it sounds impossible to me.
@@tetryst Perhaps not--but when you don't you certainly run the risk of alienating people who don't share your experience of the world.
So the question becomes what is the thing you are trying to achieve with your art? Are you making it for yourself or do you want a broader audience? And what exactly does that audience look like in your head? Who is the art really for?
And the issue is less about generating empathy for a group of people, than having the empathy necessary to portray them authentically if you are going to include them in your work.
This is a comment that deserves to be pinned.
@uutuber431 That's a whole other issue. Don't get me wrong, I love Titus and he's my favorite character on that show, but he's a huuuge gay stereotype. As a gay person, sometimes I find him hilarious yet other times it makes me uneasy.
I really like how this video is less about jumping to calling someone out and more about the nuances of what makes something funny versus just racially insensitive.
Tracy Jordan's character was actually very faithful to his wife. This was a joke they came to later, that he felt he had to maintain the facade of a lecherous party animal because it's what was expected of him. It WAS a commentary on the stereotype, no?
you read my mind! Tracy never cheated!
His name is Tracy Morgan not jordan
@@kaleahcollins4567 Tracey Jordan is the name of the character 🤦🏽♀️
Right, but if you recall, Tracy changed drastically over the course of the show, and I heard once (perhaps a Fey interview but can't say for sure) that this was Tracy Morgan just changing the character as he saw fit and the writers just went with it. So based on season 1, I think Tracy was conceived as a more stereotypical misogynist Black entertainer... As for this video, it has given me a lot to think about.
This and there were a few episodes where it explicitly talks about how he also tries to do crazy and stupid things to further the notion because he thinks he has to to stay relevant. Until, he opens his own studio then he tones down a lot because he no longer has to really play the game and can do whatever he wants. I mean he does still play the game when churning out ridiculous things for a paycheck but he also puts out award winning work too.
They had a whole episode dedicated to how Tracy doesn't cheat on his wife, he just pretends to as a way to maintain his image
Which is hilarious
Thanks, ii was going to mention that myself, but now I conveniently don't have to. His wife is a walking, talking stereotype, but I like that they're actually incredibly in love and completely faithful.
What does this have to do with the video tho lmao
@@c0mm0ndrgg 5:01
Exactly what I was gonna say
My favorite part: "I'm not saying, thing bad, or, thing good. I'm saying it's interesting and weird and worth talking about." Fantastic analysis. Big fan of Tina Fey, this is a good conversation starter.
Tina Fey is highly self-aware. In her acceptance speech for the Mark Twain Award, she says, “I hope people 100 years from now will look back at my work, and say, ‘Wow, that is actually pretty racist’”.
I'm not sure if you're a missing /s or if you didn't watch the video all the way to the end.
The Primeval Void you’re missing the point wholeheartedly
@@ikevizual6969 Which was?
@@ThePrimevalVoid That she is essentially saying she thinks some of her jokes may be actually racists and that in 100 years she hopes people have progressed to where when they look back, people will say,"Wow that's actually racist" add some sarcasm sound to make it sound like a joke.
This is what i assume Clay Sletta meant by the point Isaac P is saying you missed. Just a guess.
I started watching Kimmy Schmidt a couple of months ago and only got through a couple of episodes before I got fed up with the racism. If she really thinks it will take 100 years then she's 99 years off.
It sounds to me like her style is to ridicule the absurdity of racist expectations itself, as opposed to propagating existing stereotypes as though they're factually true.
I believe that’s what some call ‘hipster racism’- it’s still racism FYI
@@martydoritos no i think it's called "some being completely unable to understand context so they just take everything at absolute surface level so they have something to complain about"
@@peterumathum4903 dumb
@@andrean733 oh i agree. It most definitely is dumb
I don't think this is dumb at all 😳 I also view this type of racial humor as a commentary on the expectations of our racially prejudiced social system as well.
I think Tina Fey has always had a really good way of writing so that the bigot is always the butt of the joke. She plays with the ridiculousness of societal standards while there’s always an undertone of support the underdog. I think she’s amazing. 30 rock is in my top 3 shows of all time.
Not really...you shouldn’t have to explain
Projecting black stereotypes in a TV show for laughs is never cool no matter how you try to spin it.
@@HypnoticHollywood what about white stereotypes?
@@HypnoticHollywood get pff your high horse. Tina does comedy well. The people of color are never the butt of the joke but societies perception of them is. People like you have killed satire and as sitcom junkie, that kinda sucks.
They're mocking blackface. They're not "doing" blackface. It's called satire. Tina Fey and NBC are just avoiding the cancel-culture mob labeling them as racists when they eventually take over and rewrite history.
Excellent video. Even handed and well observed, you. were kind of saying Tina Fey relies on racial humor as a crutch. I've noticed her work as well, but like you, I also like a lot of her stuff. That's the conundrum black folks are put in in the US - basically, accept it and don't complain. Just be glad there's a black character on screen, right?
Racial humor is funny, done in the right way. And, for the most part TF does it right. BTW, she basically called out Weinstein and Cosby before the media did.
I guess soft core porn channels can get political too
What I didn't like is the time she used 'I can't breath' as a punchline to a plot about culture appropriation. That was really gross and I couldn't look past it. Especially bc BLM literally relies on all races coming together to call out injustice. Wack.
Wayne Rembert humor is subjective and you can’t tell a black person how to feel about racist jokes. It’s funny at first, but you start to cringe after so many of tgrm
Why is racial humour only a problem when its a white person doing it?
Ya'll are actually lowkey racist but then again every like minded sjw thinks that its impossible to be racist to white people.
Logic is not there strong suit.
If youre from africa why are you white? Is a question almost every white african gets asked tho lmao
Diego Delgado yup. Charlize Theron talks about it too and she was born in Africa.
The entire point of that joke is that the character asking that question is borderline braindead and thinks she can tell the weather by the texture of her boobs. It's an ignorant character making an obviously ignorant statement.
It’s a joke nonetheless though, which I think people hop on because it’s kind of funny (to some people) and they would probably want to connect over a movie reference. Honestly, I get it all the time and it’s hard to tell when the person is being serious or not lol :-)
I'm a white african what am I plz
Ngl I met a white dude from Zimbabwe, and yeah, I thought of that quote. I had the good sense not to *say* it, but I did think it
You got the characterization of Tracy Jordan in 30 rock wrong. He comes off as a buffoon at first but if you pay attention Tracy is actually the most well rounded adult on the show. They even make a joke about this at one point when Liz is asking him for advice and he says "why are you asking me for advice? I'm Tracy Jordan. Married for 23 years, father of 3, I run my own business. Damn, I'm the most stable adult here." And it's true. None of the other characters are doing as well as him.
It comes out in one of the episodes that he's never cheated on his wife. He just plays like he's an adulterer to keep up with his public persona. He also has children that he takes care of and desires respect from.
I don't think it's fair to critique Tina Fey's approach to race and include Tracy Jordan as part of that critique if you're not going to portray him accurately.
The fact that he comes off as an idiot is part of the joke. Black people may have historically been the butt of the joke but Tina made a black character on her show the best representation of the American dream. Coming from absolute poverty to be a millionaire with a loving family.
Not to mention he actually had moments of surprising intelligence. There's an episode where they're in Boston and he's constantly spouting historical facts (in a bid to expose the racism of the founding fathers).
I do appreciate your video though and I agree that her approach to race is a conversation worth having.
yeah I never took the Tracy Jordan character as being dumb, he's more insane than anything.
Evan McNear
I think there's a problem when a Black comic can't portray a goofy, silly character on a sitcom without stirring controversy.
Tracy Morgan's comedy is silly and irreverent and he never takes himself too seriously.
He's still smart, but he acts foolish for laughs.
We see this type of WHite character all the time one sitcoms, I don't see the offense because Tracy is playing the same character.
@evan i was waiting for someone to say something about this. its so amazing, because they don't do a lot of character development on tracy's character; however, they pull the onion back on him in a pretty amazing way. he's well invested, knows his craft, crazy rich, and a faithful husband! shoutout to all of the 30 rock fans! you all make me feel less weird in the world.
The Tracy vs. Founding Fathers episode is in Boston, including fake Ben Franklin bringing Tracy fake Crispus Attucks as proof he has a "black friend" after being challenged. (But this scene could totally have happened in Philly, FS!)
@@klwarns
Blerg. You're totally right.
tracy's character is really interesting tho because over time several of the assumptions and stereotypes placed on him in the early seasons were 'debunked' like his compulsive infidelity was faked for notoriety, they end up regarding tracy as the "most adult" person in 30 rock because he's been in a stable relationship, has a successful business as an actor and record label owner. this i think is only really possible in a show that goes on for so long as 7 seasons (or 6? idr), but with kimmy schmidt race exploration stayed pretty underdeveloped in general, and particularly regarding jacqueline and her native heritage. but i mean putting jane krakowski in the role of a native person is simply wack
30 Rock went on for 6.5 seasons. Season 7 was cut in half.
There are lots of native Americans who look like her because of a part white ancestry and being fair to begin with. Not all natives are super dark and have obvious features so I think it's actually believable even if her parents fit more of the "traditional" native stereotype.
Don't forget, he has an EGOT.
haterskeephatin101 Yeah there are tons of people with indigenous heritage who are pasty. Choctaw nations.
A point I'd add with Tracy's character. Tracy Morgan had a ton of creative control on where his character went. He said as much. Many of those character arcs he probably put in himself, with Tina's agreement, of-course.
www.npr.org/2013/01/25/170172230/tracy-morgan-30-rock-let-him-be-himself
Donald Glover wrote a lot of those race jokes on 30 Rock.
Yikes 💀
And Hannibal Buress too.
Yes, he did.
I feel diversity in the writers room is what matters. Depends who writes it and it matters
“Hey what’s that kid from community?”
“Donahld Glover”
Tina Fey Insists Diversity Is Better For TV Writing Rooms
“I feel like the more diverse the room, in every way, smoother sailing. People behave themselves better, the cream will rise differently.”
Posted on May 4, 2018, 8:09:19 AM GMT
She has a diverse writing team. It's not just one white woman making all these jokes.
But as a executive producer she has the final say..Donald Glover wasn't a producer.
Y’all just need to be quiet like omg
So who in the writing room do you think would have had the gonads to say - You know boss, this is kinda, maybe a lil bit racist
One black guy out of how many writers? How many non-white writers? It didn’t seem that diverse to me
10:10
Hi. Good video. One thing, Tracy Jordan wasn't unfaithful. It was all an act as part of his celebrity persona. He admitted that to jack in an episode where Jack was considering marriage he (reluctantly) admitted he loved his wife and has never cheated on her.
I think the response to that might be that this plot point does not really change the validity of the commentary as Tracy's lack of infidelity is tapping the exact same stereotype for comedy that his infidelity was before. Much like Gris and Dotcom in general its the violation of the stereotypical expectation that is being treated as funny here. You could argue the comedy is character based in this case as they are violating the expectations set up for the character long term but its hard not not see the tropes used for his character as being racially based in the first place.
@@lukaszj.2359 Tell me if I got this right, but the problem is that jokes about and around black characters are always racial? The racial aspect is the problem. Whether jokes follow stereotypes or subvert them is besides the point - right?
@@oof-rr5nf I'm no authority, but it seems likely to me that it may be difficult for people to try to write from the perspective of characters from other racial and cultural groups without resorting to tropes or just avoiding the topic of race entirely. Social Identity Theory would suggest that we sort of use stereotypes to think about all groups including the ones we belong too, its just we relate to in-groups and out-groups differently, generally being pretty defensive of out in-group of course. But I think it could also be the case that comedy that subverted stereotypes in a positive way can age badly and start to look pretty racist as societal standards change and more nuanced portrayals of different groups are available in mass media. If there are no minority representations in media I would think that even very stereotyped portrayals would be positive as it would at least be a step in the right direction. I remember a friend of mine telling me that they idealised data from the Goonies because, especially as a kid, there were so few positive portrayals of Asians in films he had seen, but data and short round seem pretty quaintly racist now :P
@@lukaszj.2359 true true
Great points!
@@oof-rr5nf Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If Tina Fey stayed "in her lane" people would call her racist for not portraying minorities. When she portrays them with her characters she is called out for not "staying in her lane". Follow stereotypes=racist, avoid them altogether=racist. No wonder there is an obsession in not appearing racist, rather than actually working on issues that really affect minorities. I'm puerto rican and she portrays a puerto rican woman on 30 rock. The truth is she could have done more research and consulted with a puerto rican because Salma is mexican and she played her character as a Mexican (mexican words and frases, not puerto rican) but, I'm not going to feel racially attacked by benign portrayals of Puerto Ricans in comedy. Something is wrong with people who look to feel offended all the time.
Aren't all the characters on 30 rock sort of absurd stereo types?
I always thought that was the point of the entire show XD
Yeah
stuart smiley
This whole video is stupid it's like how Seinfeld is now getting criticism. This guy clearly doesn't understand the show.
@@SunnySide388 Just because you don't agree with the premise, isn't a reason to write off work as "stupid". The video offers insight with a side of opinion, and doesn't just center on 30 rock.
Television in general is grandiose stereotyping and hyperbolicity
I recently just finished watching Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt and as much as I loved it, I did find it weird that there were so many race jokes, like I would have assumed that it was a show by a black person if I didn't already know she's the one who made it. None of it offended me or anything, (I'm black) but it was really weird imagining her coming up with these jokes. Still a fucking great show. Dammit
Females are strong as hell
America is obsessed with race and shes just making fun that
We weren’t always the liberals created even more tension......all this fake hate towards trump and falsifying his character even if it’s not the best. It snowballed now it’s white conservatives versus liberals seemingly BUT that’s actually not the case..... there’s actually a middle ground and people that are on it.
@@laurenpresley8480 Are you having a stroke?
It's by design, keep being divided by race and the people won't see just how much the system is fucking over everyone.
Cee Ell Liberal elites*
Lauren, that was the longest run-on sentence I’ve probably ever seen. Congrats. And it only takes watching one interview to see Trump is an uneducated scumbag. I’m conservative and he disgusts me to my core. And fake hate? Are you implying people don’t really hate him? I assure you they do.
You cant say Donald Glover was "like basically the only black guy writing jokes on the show" when the other guy was Hannibal Buress.
Dude buress is legend. Dude can say anything and it's hilarious.
To be fair, Buress only has one episode credited to him and no other behind the scenes credits on 30 Rock. I think he joined the writing staff for a season and generally contributed, but his regular cameos in the last few 30 Rock seasons seem unconnected to how much (or how little) input he had on the show in the grand scheme of things. Glover had two episodes credited to him, and a season in a a supervisory role on the writing team as executive story editor.
Hannibal Buress only worked there for like 6 months.
Yeah, but they had dozens of writers. Glover was there for ~3 years, and Burress was there for much less. A majority of their episodes would have had no black writers; yet, the aggressive racial humour never faltered.
@@Skrublorde not trying to make a point about the point of this video. Just thought my guy Hannibal deserved a mention
Dong is so damn good looking ugh
Wait, what?
John NoNameGibbon you don’t think so?
I don't get the reference.
John NoNameGibbon dong is a character from kimmy schmidt. He’s referenced in the video.
He is, jfc
I love this video format! Also, it's always acceptable to quote Lindsay Ellis.
Always 👌
A L W A Y S
@Jordan Hitchens You ok man? You seem kinda upset. Want to talk about it?
@Jordan Hitchens That's a little vague. What specifically in this video did you have an issue with?
@@Mallory-Malkovich He just wants something to be angry about, he doesn't actually have an argument.
But aren't the white charters in the show equally "stereotypical" about various "white" personalities, attitudes, etc.? My impression of 30 Rock is that it pokes fun at ALL stereotypes, by exaggerating them in all aspects, and does so in a quite accurate way.
Like the simpsons!
I'm white so I generally try to listen more than I speak on these topics, but I remember a black friend of mine expressing this exact notion about the simpsons and stating that that was why she liked the simpsons but didn't enjoy the boondocks.
I think with the simpsons especially, it also pokes fun at the way we as a society and media in general perceive and stereotype different types of people-- it is almost a satire of itself (or a satire of a sitcom). 30 rock may be onto a similar thing. I have no idea. I'm more of a cartoon person.
Its like saying the "N" word.... Almost every single time a black guy says the "N" word he is never using that word to express any I'll intent but for a white person there are people who use it in a way a black guy uses it but there are also others who use it as a derogatory word so in this sense when she pokes fun of white people white people might say she is obviously joking because she is white and she knows that is not true she is being ironic or something like that but when a white person makes jokes about people of color we dont know if that is how she actually views people of color and she thinks what she thinks black people are are funny or if she is using irony to tell the joke so its always tricky to joke about a life style of groups of people you have no idea of their culture and way of life... Imagine you and your brother were walking down the street and a person you both dont know insults your brother... You would feel some type of way but you dont mind insulting your own brother because you know there isn't any malicious intent to it.... Sooo... Yeah... And am sorry for the long reply
I think what you are trying to say is “All lives matter”
@@jesseb4503 dude shut up
Jesse B 😂
I think that last clip makes the difference. Its like she knows how it really is or how it can be perceived. Its what passes for now and what builds a bridge for a better future. I think that's why lgbt media was so successful at changing public perceptions. We let people laugh at us first and then tricked them into seeing us as complete people slowly along the way. Of course, there is ALOT more social, political, and societal baggage that comes with POC representation so I think its more than valid to be critical of that method.
she just thinks shes quirky for being le white person who can make racist jokes and get away it with tehee!
It's been a minute since I watched 30 Rock, but I always thought the joke behind "Black Frasier" wasn't that they were black, but that instead of taking the time to actually make a show that thoughtfully depicted black characters, they would just reskin a white show with black actors and "TAH DAH! Diversity! Representation!" I thought it was a dig at token PoC representation in media, kind of like how some shows will genderswap a character that was created and written to be male to female just so they can claim representation, but there was never actually any thought or effort put into creating a meaningful female role.
In the nicest way possible for a youtube comment, I'd like to point out that what you are describing IS them being black being the joke.
@@TheBusyJane is the joke that the writers on TGS (and therefore, any writers) don't get it? Is it like, a meta-joke about lazy writing, that can seem like lazy writing itself? Is a joke about jokes that are "but now their black" still the same kind of lazy joke? It's been a while so I can't remember the context of the joke.
@@TheBusyJane I'm in a similar position to Tom: It's been a while since I've seen 30 Rock and I can't remember the exact context of the joke, but going off my memory, I felt as if it was meant to be a dig at laziness in writing actual representation.
"The joke is that they're black" feels to me like it's implying that the joke is at the expense of their race-- like the original intent was to get a laugh because it's absurdist to think that black people would act like Frasier, rather than the intent being about how absurd it is that such superficial and minimal effort is made towards actual diversity.
I think there's an important distinction between "the joke is that they're black" and "the joke exists because they are black" because that's the difference between race being the punchline and race catalyzing the punchline.
I'm not Tina Fey, so I can't speak on what she meant with "Black Frasier", but I think this is an interesting and important discussion. :)
Men will always our pace women in everything as they are much less risk averse.
Okay, but how do you explain "A Blaffair to Rememblack"
I would’ve stomached Kimmy Schmidt’s Jacquelyn storyline a lot better it they had just cast the character as a white passing Native woman. Instead, we got a completely white actress with a fake tan and brown eye contacts, getting into near brownface.
that would've been a better route to take
Amazingly, something being a joke doesn’t make it any less critiqueable.
It grossed me out too 🤢 The Native culture (as if there is just one) is portrayed so offensively and stereotypical. What part of that whole shenanigan was actually Native?
Rockin' Roll
You know most Native American roles would go to Filipinos anyway? It's because there are almost no natives left, given 90% were wiped out by European diseases and the rest were assimilated into the wider gene pool. I'm not even sure if there are any full blooded native Americans in the industry... and people wouldn't accept any less than that.
@@tacosmexicanstyle7846 be quiet, dude. not only is it totally crazy to say that there were so many natives wiped out that there's no native actors, but it's also totally crazy to say that people wouldnt mind a mixed native (here's a secret: most black people aren't 100% black, either, also due to genocide and colonization. no one cares, and you're blowing issues out of proportion). there was no good reason not to cast a native actor
I think Tina Fey is better at addressing race than most because she always goes into it with a self-aware tone. Any time Tracy acts like an idiot in 30 Rock, we know he’s being dumb and so do the characters. At the same time, she does she to rely on the same joke of “thing that already exists but black this time”.
Personally, I think Tina Fey works best when she’s making small skits on SNL, when the controversial topic behind the skit is more than likely going to be far more obvious due to its shorter nature.
For example, I think she handles sexism far better than race, though, but even then it’s not always great. Her boss in 30 Rock, for example, is a microcosm of the wider stereotype of “man in a position of power that’s super misogynist”. That wouldn’t be a bad thing necessarily, if the character is challenged on their ideas, but they rarely ever are. It’s always just shrugged off as “he’s from a different time” or “that rascally bigot”. Jack is often portrayed as likable and suave, despite all of his really huge character defects (they’re bigger than just simple flaws) and by the end of the show he’s married without having ever really changed. He just finds a woman that can dish it out as much as he can, which... I don’t know, that feels kinda gross to me.
Also, it's often implied that Tracy is smarter than he lets on and is playing with LIz's sense of white guilt deliberately. I definitely agree that Jack's story could've had a more fitting end. I think him realizing he's wasted his life and is really just a high-functioning alcoholic who doesn't know how to do his job then sailing off into the sunset would've worked out better.
As far as the misogynistic and bigoted overtones to his character, I guess I always interpreted the fact it's unquestioned as a harsh criticism of the entertainment and television industries and corporate america at large. I agree it's better to confront those ideas, though. People have definitely caught on now and are less likely to just present bigoted characters and trust the audience to know they're bad, because the reality is some portion of the audience will miss the point when it could be a teachable moment instead.
30 Rock is still probably my all-time favorite sitcom for the tight structures and incredibly snappy writing, but there are aspects of it that haven't ages so well. Also, as a bisexual man, I can't help but notice the occasional reliance on gay stereotypes. Sure, it's generally self-aware, but it's there.
itsaUSBline I think that’s the biggest problem with the show. It started out as a satirical look at the entertainment industry at large, but somewhere along the way, it lost its focus and just became what it was meaning to satirize.
@@itsaUSBline Yes, one of my fav's is when Liz thinks Tracy can't read. Something she would never have suspected of another cast member. Tracy plays on her suspicions very well and keeps her guessing.
And i watched 30 Rock at a time when my teen brain could not comprehend sexism and misogyny very well. Making characters like that likable in ways that does not reflect on their flaws... I don't see how that's even good even just for comedic purposes ya know?
I have the same issue with How I Met Your Mother and its outlook for Barney being this lovable pervert, a jerk who objectifies women _sure_ BUT he is really a very good guy underneath it all, you guys ! ! ! When, really, he spent every episode for eight seasons trying to trick women into sleeping with him.
@@itsaUSBline 👏👏👏👏
also ayyyye what up bi fam
In my opinion, in general any Tina Fey character who is not THE MAIN character tends to be a weird stereotype without much empathetic framing. Even the girls in mean girls are one dimensional reductions of mean girls. The side characters in 30 Rock have no arcs or no growth. And personally, I just think it’s cuz Tina Fey while good at being clever and funny and making commentary here and there, isn’t a very good traditional writer in the sense of creating fully realized humans in every story
mean girls seems to make sense though, like that's the point
You should definitely check out the Mean Girls musical, the overall story arcs of most of the characters are more fleshed out and it included a scene that was originally cut from the movie that gives Regina a bit more dimension. :)
I agree, and honestly I think that in itself is her way of making fun of stereotypes in general and showing how shallow they are. I have a feeling Tinas heart is in the right place.
@@calliopebuttons123 That's my take. Tina doesn't stereotype to be mean, but to have fun with it. She does it for money, but she also makes us laugh and I don't think she ever makes us laugh in a mean way. I'm inclined to give her a pass too, though some of her Asian characters seem over the top and wrong.
Fully realized humans aren’t as funny
When is Tracy Jordan ever unfaithful to his wife? Never.
I thought it was a commentary on the expectations that media puts on black celebrities
@@aj_12x23 Well no, he is _portrayed_ as being faithful in a world where many people assume and expect that he won't be. 'Portrayed' doesn't refer to what characters or audiences assume about a fictional figure, it refers to the actual events portrayed in the film
Tracey was the funniest character on that show. But in real life he’s more stable and a good guy n other hand terry crews was the best black man role model in everybody hates Chris haha but in real life he a sellout
Isn't Black Frasier more a joke about hollywood doing black reboots instead of just doing original shows? Right now I believe they are talking about a black Buffy reboot and I believe they are working on a black Bewitched.
What black reboots have there been? Actually curious. I can't recall any that have actually happened.
@@tanyabc hamilton
the wiz
creed
what men want
annie
about last night
@@tanyabc There was Black Honeymooners and Black Kojack.
@@orecoast1 ahh, the wiz is such a classic that i never view it as a remake, but i see what you mean. most of these others came after 30 rock was off the air, so i was confused about it referencing a trend that hasn't been super prevalent
@@micahjohnsonboxing6409 Lol, that is too funny,. Just looked them up. Not surprised the tv show didn't last very long.
This is a really well-made video and gave me a lot to think about! Thanks for this :)
I’m so happy to stumble upon one of my fave creators in the comments of one of my others.
All your work unraveling the awful mess that is JK Rowling’s transphobia cemented you in my opinion as one of the best trans allies on UA-cam. I’ve never seen ANYONE even hint at Tina Feys odd obsession with trans jokes about trans men and women. I think you’d handle the topic so well, if you’re not aware of these transgressions I can give you about a thousand examples from “30 Rock” alone.
I was really expecting to dislike this video, and expected it to be really grasping at straws for something to get upset about, but I was completely wrong, it was very well researched and much more targeted at starting a conversation. I checked out some of your other videos and I had to write a positive comment, it’s great to see content about relevant issues where the creator is actually being honest with them self and fact checking along the way
no, the video is grasping at straws; you had it backwards
@@greytoeimp It's called S O C I A L C O M M E N T A R Y. You god damn snowflake.
Yikes that's cringe 😬
Yes, "BLACK FRASIER" is funny because it's black. It's also funny because it critiques networks' lack of originality and the recycling and squeezing every cent out of a previously successful concept rather than come up with something fresh and new. It also critiques crass pandering to the African-American audience. The joke plays on views' familiarity with the original white FRASIER, and the closer and better the impersonations, the funnier the joke, and it was pretty funny.
There were precedents to this.
In the early '70's, ABC did a pilot TV adaptation of Neil Simon's play & movie of BAREFOOT IN THE PARK (later broadcast as a LOVE AMERICAN STYLE episode). It didn't click, but someone in charge thought, "Hey, let's re-shoot the same pilot script, only with black actors." The "black version" actually was better, and led to a short run of episodes ... all of them now forgotten, btw. I think ABC later did the same thing with THE ODD COUPLE, with Demond Wilson (LAMONT from "Sanford & Son") in the Jack Klugman/Oscar Madison role.
Then there was Sanford and Son, which was the African- American version of Steptoe and Son, a British sitcom with white characters (it was remade in several different countries).
I was thinking exactly this when he brought up that joke.
Yes lol, Black Frasier seemed more a dig at NBC because it was a dumb, pandering, idea absolutely bereft of any creativity. Also I think they probably just wanted an excuse to work with my man Johnson from Peep Show. :D
To add to this, the joke isn’t that there black, the joke is that it’s a lazy knock off of something else, the joke works if they’re women, or Asian, or surfer dudes, or anything else
another part of the joke is that Twofer presents it as an ideal. "We never would have stooped so low on Black Frasier."
Well, she said it herself: “And like Mark Twain, I hope, a hundred years from now, people would see my work and think “wow that is actually pretty racist”.
One thing you didn't mention in reference to UKS was the fact that Jane Krakowski is not Native American and that was a big reason why people were uncomfortable with the plotline. It could be interesting and thoughtful if done correctly, but retroactively changing her race and darkening her skin was a bit much.
Came here to say this too. I feel like that sort of plotline has a lot of potential, and being white-passing is something a lot of people of color may struggle with, but having a white woman play that role is sort of... tasteless... Not to mention, it's an unsettling trend in a lot of other Hollywood movies, both comedy and not (the last airbender, ghost in the shell, that one emma wattson movie where she was supposed to be asian)
L Byrley it was Emma Stone.
@@jackbyrley6441 not to mention all the movies about Egyptians with white characters 🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃
@@jackbyrley6441 ghost in the shell is a bad example, I'm pretty sure the original creator said the character was white
09BiGDylan more like he just didn’t give af because she was a robot, he just wanted a good looking actress if I recall
I can't say I really understand the point of this video...or at least the big deal. From the clips I've seen her humor seems very meta and satirical.
I'm pretty sure he was just starting a dialog. He made it pretty clear he wasn't drawing a conclusion.
yet, if Tina Fey were a Republican Trump supporter she'd be racist as hell...Right? 🤨👌😒
@@sodone4078 I mean, political conservatism is historically rooted in racism so... yea
@@sodone4078 If you can point out any work both as nuanced and rooted in reality as Tina Fey's by a Republican Trump supporter then I will definitely watch it.
@@J-Hell narrator: @so done could not
"But there's a line where subverting prejudices as a form of commentary crosses over into exploiting prejudices just for a laugh."
You made lots of good points, but I liked how succinctly this line of thought was presented in particular. I think that exploitation is a byproduct of the entertainment industry always trying to get a laugh before commercial.
There's a "have your cake and eat it too" aspect to racial humor that's based on satirizing racism. Or, really, any satire. Are you doing the bad thing so you can make fun of it, or are you making fun of the bad thing as an excuse to do it? Nobody can really "prove" your motivations either way, so you're asking people to trust you a lot if you go down that road frequently.
I love how a rosé commercial is playing after he said white women
Amy Gamis i do love a good rosé 😫
@@bellamartel7523 yea i just thought my screen be dirty
Arguing that Tina Fey growing up in a diverse community should have made her naturally having interactions with blacks, and having a diverse circle of acquaintances, might as well work the other way around. The very diversity in her home town might have been the reason for her being aware of the racism, and lack of interaction between the groups supposed to be sharing the same community - as can be observed in many American towns, or even across the world.
*black people
definitely worth considering, honestly I find her funny but often find myself impossible to not think about the cake thing
your content is mind blowing Peter, thank you for making it i share it often
Yeah, I like Tina Fey. However, that cake segment was condescending as F*ck. Sometimes people just need to sit down, Not your time Tina...No need to chime in...
@@nomore2001 What happened?
@@JerzCe73 can you explain the cake thing because it totally went over my head?
I rewatched that recently, it's pretty clearly about stress-eating due to political turmoil. The "don't pay attention to bullies and they'll go away" idea, which was not central to the joke, is a bad long-term political strategy, but I think people ignored everything except that line. I mean did you remember the part where she was saying to scream into the cake, cos I didn't.
Also that line where she said that drag queens are six-foot-tall black guys, which I saw one person describe as "transphobia-adjacent" which I think is the best mental gymnastic move I've seen where someone was avoiding saying "I'm choosing to interpret this the worst way possible so I can feel useful by saying it's bad."
OMG, thank you for making this, it just makes me feel like I'm not the only one feeling this way! I'm black and started watching 30 Rock for the first time ever a few weeks ago (I know I'm late) and halfway through the first season, I started to feel some kind of way. I felt like every 3rd joke was racial, and every 5th was about black culture. Of course I googled it trying to find out if I was the only one feeling uncomfortable about it but and was flooded with topics of blackface controversy which I wasn't aware, but didn't want to get into that, so I left it a lone and peddled on through the episodes. I'm now half way through season 3 and feeling the same and I'm noticing even more black culture referenced jokes even and its getting harder to digest because its so constant.
I'm torn! I like the show, the fast pace jokes that make you pay attention, but wondering if being able to binge watch a whole season in a week instead of whole tv season of ~8months, was not a good idea and is making it worse. I just don't know how much more I'll be able to take of it, before I need to give it a break, or stop watching all together. I'm hoping the tone changes in the next season.
Thats the effect it’s always sunny in Philadelphia had on me.
@@unfazedjae2645 I’ve also had this experience with both 30 Rock and Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Decided not to continue watching both. You’re not alone. It appears that race is an uncomfortable obsession in those shows.
That have happened to me when I've tried to watch acclaimed early 2000s shows near the 2020. I just don't find that funny those kind of jokes. Maybe we actually became _woke_ and certainly that's a good thing.
I always thought the "Black Frasier" joke was about the divide we had in 90s TV. I don't remember any shows that reflected real-world diversity. I remember shows about mostly white people and shows about mostly black people. So "Black Fasier" might be a network's ploy to "appeal to a wider audience."
I took it as a joke at how lame Frasier is/was.
Yes, this guy got it wrong. Also the whole "big black scary guy" being smart and sensitive is a joke because they are black is also false, that joke has been made all the time aroud bikers (mostly white) beacuse they are big and scary and then they turned out to be smart and sensitive not because they are "black".
I noticed a trend in a lot of these comedies featuring quirky white women where they say something racist, or sounds racist with just enough context and then a random black person pops up and they awkwardly stumble out some sort of defense while shrinking in awkward fear at this angry poc.
the thing about Tracy is that he's presented as a one-dimensional stereotype right from the start, but repeatedly goes on to dismiss this perception *(ex. he's well known to hang out at strip clubs and have mistresses, but at some point you find out he's never once actually cheated on his wife. he's portrayed as a neglectful parent, but when confronted by the reality of this, owns up to his actions and chooses to be better).*
This is obviously not me saying "it's definitively not racist" or "you're overthinking it." I don't have the authority to make that call and won't pretend to. Just, for whatever it's worth, she *does* go on to subvert these stereotypes over time.
Love the video. Love the commentary. Love the opportunity for discussion!
Tina Fey’s humor ranges from slapstick to political, racial to sexuality to downright misogyny at times. There’s no obsessive focus on anything, just an all-encompassing unfiltered satire on society. Don Rickles she is not.
Thank god! I found him annoying.
@@ChefMimsy satire implies social commentary on a specific issue. while this relies on the audience's knowledge of said issue, T1J did state that the jokes weren't really adding commentary or had an underlying message within the jokes, at least the ones he used as an example. "its funny because they're black" doesnt necessarily mean that it's satire. satire isn't satire because it's a joke about something taboo like misogyny or race or sexuality. that isn't to say that her humor isn't funny simply because she is making a joke about taboo issues - but to classify her comedy as satire in the context of this video is a bit of a stretch.
I definitely noticed but I also notice the nuance. For example her SNL skit with Queen Latifa pointed out the racism we often encounter in the office. Also, on both 30 Rock and Kimmie Smidt, the racism is often acknowledge an it becomes the story line or but of the joke rather than black people. That, I think is the distinction when fun is made of the circumstance versus fun being made of the people experiencing the circumstance. One interesting I found over the seasons of KS is that Titus, her roomie and a main character, deals a whole lot more with being gay than being black. The best episode was when he was trapped in a werewolf costume and people feared him less and supported him more than they did as a black man. This episode smacked white supremacy and the way it treats race and animals in the face. I live in Austin, TX and I often say that if I'm ever attacked or need help, I'm going yell "hey, stop beating that dog." I know I'm more likely to get attention for that than if I yelled for help. Anyway, Tina is a thoughtful comic writer and I think in many ways handles the nuance better than most. certainly better than "Soul Plane", "Meet the Browns", the "Friday" movies and many others (but that's just me tho ;o).
Dude. You rock.
Well said! Now time for werewolf bar-mitsva, spooky scary 🎶🎶🎶
I haven't actually watched the show, but I want to. When a black cast member are the center of the story is their race usually a part of the joke? Or do they also appear in scenes where race is not the topic fairly often? I could see it getting old, awkward and even anxiety inducing if it's like all the time. But I suppose it beats Friends and other shows where PoC are practically non existent. Baby steps!
I am open to the points here! But in defense of the Native American plotline in Kimmy Schmidt, the whole story arc was for Jacquiline to have the Washington Redskins change their name! I mean, that's a pretty big thing for a sitcom to tackle. But again, I can see how its imperfect.
As a wife of a Native American and as a person who grew up in Oklahoma where various indigious cultures are always in the periphery, I can say that we thought it did a great job pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole mess and the lack of cultural awareness of most white folks.
Even if she doesn't always land the punchline, Fey's projects show that at least she has awareness. You can't create satire to that extent if you don't. I honestly would rather have someone who addresses in some form how people of color are treated than deal with the "I see no color" types.
Except remember that episode in Unbreakable Kimmy where she parodies race activists, portraying them as stupid and "clearly" wrong? To me that says she is not willing to take criticism and that people who disagree with her stance are straight out dumb and have no real arguments.
I couldn't watch that episode through and stopped watching the show shortly after because of that and how lacking I found the characters and the stories.
FANTASTIC new format, dude.
For me, it's not that race is or isn't in her lane. I believe anyone can talk about racial issue in any form of media like Comedy or Drama that is if they do make the proper research and give voice to people of those races. But the beef i got with Tina Fey's show, particularly in 30 rocks and Kimmy Schmidt, is that every time someone not-white appears on the screen, they must absolutely be the "other" of the episode. And by "other", i mean we must clearly be shown how different they are to the regular cast. That latina girl MUST have a thick Spanish accent cause of course she must. That black woman has to be loud and obnoxious cause of course she is. It's so jarring that i can't rewatch these episode twice now.
Everyone on 30 Rock is a caricature, including the white people. The stupid blonde receptionist, the stereotypically waspy CEO, the wife-whipped balding middle manager, the age obsessed actress.
@Michael Halliwell spoken like a true white person.
@@kellyrobinson6543 but *that* racial stereotyping is fine right?
*rolls eyes ad infinitum*
@@kitpalmer1583 yes.... yes it is.. do you not actually realize why or are you just pretending to be dumb?
@@1000aaronaaronaaron it's not pretending. Their upbringing teaches them this
One piece of advice I've been given as a white writer by people of colour is that it's fine for me to write characters of colour as long as I don't write those characters' stories as being ABOUT being people of colour, and that writing about the experience of racism is a thing for people of colour to do because they're the ones who experience it. It's their lane, not mine, and I can understand and get behind that. It's not my story to tell. That said, when one does that, they end up with a story in which, as you said, skin colour is never an issue and the world seems to exist as some kind of post-racial wonderland, which is also worth criticism and definitely feels off to me when I look at it later.
Is it, then, my place to write about racism as long as I'm doing it at the expense of white people, e.g., making jokes about how white people often blithely do and say casually racist things and pointing out how ridiculous that is? I just want to be basically decent, at the end of the day, and being basically decent means staying in my lane and making an effort not to be accidentally racist.
Honestly I recommend going the Rick Riordan route-write diverse characters as people as well as their racial experiences and cultural context, but do a lot of research and run it by multiple ppl from that community. I guarantee a lot of people will be happy to help. (Hell, if you ever want to write Rwandan or Burundian characters that grew up in Europe, hit me up.)
@@tessy4018 This is true! It's always so easy to forget that the internet is RIGHT THERE and that we've got the whole world at our fingertips, full of people who are different from us.
I think there's an art to being able to write with sensitivity and empathy and make people think about how someone of a different race might see things. An example that came immediately to mind for me was the All in the Family episode, "Everybody Tells the Truth," where the audience is shown three different versions of a single incident regarding a refrigerator repairman, with two of those versions being distorted by the biases held by the characters who are describing them. It's the last description of the event by Edith, the real heart of the show, that seems to be the most accurate and does not pull any punches. And the audience is able to relate and empathize with a black character that Archie has mistreated not because the meathead is outraged and wants to depict Archie as being an evil caricature, but because Edith is loving enough to recognize that even though she loves Archie his treatment of a black character is wrong. Do check it out if you get a chance. It's a fantastic episode, and any modern writer could do well to take a few pages from Norman Lear's book. He handled many, many heavy topics thoughtfully and with class.
I'm not a writer or a person of color. My best person on the internet advice would be that you probably shouldn't write about racism because it's unlikely you'll do a good job. I know you know the best way to avoid being "accidentally racist" is to have the perspective of people being written about. There are people here suggesting you utilize the internet, but let's be honest, what you really need is to be working in conjunction with other writers on your team being paid for their contribution. If you're working on a project with only white writers writing about people of color, I'd encourage you to approach someone about hiring additional writers. Imagine if all non-white writers wrote a show about white people. If they won't hire people to tell stories from multiple perspectives than I think your best bet is to write the best most complex characters you can in a "post-racial wonderland" because we can't always quit a job on moral principle, until you can find a project that better reflects what the world looks like.
TJ1 also answered this question in response to amcaff below.
When the whole self-aware racist joke/satire trend started in the early 2000s, I think it was funny (and also blatantly offensive, at times). But now it's become a trope across many series and it's old and annoying. I recently watched every season of The Office in 2021 for the first time, and rewatched seasons of Workaholics, and after a while, it just feels lazy to keep making jokes where white characters pretend that they don't know that they are doing or saying something wildly offensive. Yes, many white people are hella racist and willfully ignorant, but after a while, using these tropes just feels like a way to get a "pass" on using race for humor at the expense of non-whites, which is what white people have always done.
This is exactly why I couldn't go through the office, because it was simply annoying seeing someone so...well like that. There are shows that had aged well and others just are kind of dumb when I try to enjoy them as I surely did years ago.
It's ironic until it isn't.
I am just so glad Titus Andromedon even exists, the one character I could finally relate and my first and only role model.
I just started watching Kimmy Schmidt and it was weird and distracting how often the comedy revolved around race. It's such a cute show, but pretty cringeworthy at times. Seemingly innocent, but idk it's kind of lampshading... not really something I find funny.
It’s hilarious in my opinion
@@amberwarnke6434 fair, humour is subjective
I don't like the show. I like Tina Fay, loved 30 Rock, but I don't like Kimmy Schmidt. I have friends who like it, but it's too fake for me. Maybe fake's not the right word, but it feels forced to me.
Same, but I would do anything for more Titus screentime. That dude is a gem. Pure talent.
I feel like you've consistently applied auteur theory to two comedy series with (at the standards of the time, at least) diverse writer's rooms but you haven't touched on it. If a black writer in a show writes an episode, like Donald Glover who wrote Believe in the Stars (the episode that has blackface), does Tina Fey ultimately own the credit and responsibility because she greenlit it?
Only when the episode is terrible. I feel that people choose who gets credit based on many things, if they like them, if they DONT like them. Many will say “Donald wrote that, so why does Tina get the credit?” or “Donald wrote the episode but Tina approved so she gets the credit. Can it not be multiple factors and multiple people!?
I never once felt like Tina Fey went over the line with racial humor. In part I thought she did a lot of poking fun at tropes by making them more absurd. I think that if she had avoided casting minority characters on the basis that "she couldn't do it correctly" there would be more of a stink surrounding her work. Offense is taken not given, though, so I may only be seeing her through the lens of "not offended black guy".
she often jokes about the line, i think that is good
So if I piss on your shoe and you get angry, it's your fault not the fact that I just pissed on your shoes? Lol nice logic
@@whatreallymatters571 Obviously that's not what that means. Lol, nice straw man.
When they introduced toofer I knew I was in for a good show.
*puts on Morpheus glasses*
"What if I told you that 'she does this on purpose, just so conversations like these could happen'?"
(Emphasis on the "what if?")
🤔
The same could be said about men of any race writing women. This is why representation is important.
One of the points I found interesting is that an audience will accept the jokes if they are written by the same culture/race but will immediately reject them if they are the same type of jokes written by a different culture/race. Isn't the art of being a writer/actor (as this argument applies to the argument for trans roles and representation) the ability to create or write performances that are outside of their own personal experiences? Also, why are we not holding the audience accountable for their misreading of the text when the intention of the work differs from the inability of the audience to recognize the satire or irony of the work?
Daniel McCoy gotem
@@JamesFuentes526 Yes you are right. It is a writer's job but when it is clunky or so painfully tokenised don't you think people should rightfully call them out? A culture of silence will create more problems than it will hide.
@@ayomade7496 fortunately, is not the case with Fey.
So, what would you give as an example of a non-white character that is weird and funny enough to fit into a world of the sort we see in a Tina Fey show or movie, but still respects all of the high-minded concerns you mention in the video? All of her characters are ridiculous crazy people, almost always based on stereotypes to some extent. What would you come up with if you had to create a non-white character that met all of these characteristics:
1) They are funny enough, memorable enough, and have a strong enough personality to steal the show from characters like Jack Donaghy, Jenna Maroney, and Kenneth Parcell
2) They have the same limited grasp on reality as the more typical 30 Rock characters like Jack, Jenna, and Kenneth
3) Their race and gender actually matter to who they are as a person and are not interchangeable during casting
I'm not saying that a character along these lines is impossible, but I do think that, more often than not, your recommendations are going to lead to blander characters, who get completely overshadowed by the characters who can be as crazy, bombastic, and absurd as the writers want to make them.
Why does being crazy, bombastic, and absurd mean relying on racial stereotypes?
I feel like this is down to the commodification of comedy and entertainment to a degree. These days, films, television shows, books, music, etc are not really about being good, they're about being profitable.
The thing is, you can't sell many things by being uncomfortable and for that reason, white liberals tend to only deal with racism on a very surface level in a way that makes them feel comfortable. They like to imagine racism as a fat guy in a Confederate t-shirt screaming the n-word because they know they aren't anywhere near as bad as he is. But they do nothing to examine the socio-economic injustices or unconscious biases that are still prevalent in our society today because that would mean being self-analytical and asking yourself some hard questions.
Anyway, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
Yeah. Which is why Get Out was such a breathe of fresh air.
@@oof-rr5nf It really was. 12 Years a Slave and Moonlight as well. I hope more movies like those are made.
@@surgeland9084 Don't you dare talk about Moonlight. I *will* cry.
I don't see the connection you're making. 30 Rock definitely examines unconscious biases and Tina Fey has shown on multiple occasions to be self-analytical on this topic
The thing about Tina Fey is that some of her humor around race does challenge comfort, and some is just jokes about race. One of the things that makes 30 Rock effective is that by having a cast with a significant black presence, she was able to make a lot of jokes that work because they’re unexpected. Some of those jokes are Black Frasier, some of those jokes are Alec Baldwin’s Redd Foxx impression, and some are Liz on the Black Nationalist talk show. Fey treats race like any other comedy topic, which can be refreshing but also doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Grizz and Dotcom are the source of some really great jokes that rely on their characters and some other really great jokes that make insightful points about race. They’re also, as T1J observed, the source of this big, tough black guy in street wear is intelligent and thoughtful. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes I watch, sometimes I don’t.
I dont think you have demonstrated that Tina Fey is "obsessed" with race. There seems to be underlying implication that white people can't make jokes about race or those jokes have to be specifically tailored to advance the cause of minorities. As you said, simply providing characters that break stereotypes is laudable and I think having such a narrow view of how jokes on race can be made leaves no room for art and comedy.
You should watch Contrapoints video called "The Darkness" . It talks about punching up and punching down. In comedy, punching down makes a joke someone's expense. While punching up reveals an issue that a group faces, and exposes those issues creating a sense of community. I think that's what this video talks about without explicitly using that language. I don't think that T1J is saying that you can't make jokes. Only that the kinds of jokes you make effects people, and sometimes in negative ways. I think he's advocating for thoughtfulness rather than being restrictive.
I thought he purposfully left it at a grey area, never really sticking to one point yet you took it as him having a narrow view.
Salamander I noticed that too.
Racial humor isn't bad as long as you handle it tactfully like any subject. Being able to joke about ourselves and what makes us different is what leads to better self awareness. I think Tina Fey does a good job with showing the absurdities that everyone holds with in themselves.
Bingo... it's about leaning into touchy subjects
@@mckernan603 no, humor CAN, but does not have to lean into anything. its about many things, way beyond just leaning into "touchy subjects"
but also, there are many touchy things outside of race and sexuality
I searched "Tina Fey racism" and found this video after watching Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. The race jokes are everywhere and you can tell they were written by a white person. I think it's interesting to pay attention to how she writes jokes about women (something she can relate to) vs. jokes about race. The jokes about women are a lot more respectful and nuanced than the ones about race. I also think it's funny how the woman that lives in the gentrified neighborhood is portrayed as "ghetto" and "poor". She's a damn landlord in a gentrified neighborhood, she is not poor. She lives in a gentrified neighborhood and her properties are probably worth a ton of money. It's very obvious the show is written by upper class white people because their jokes about class/race/drugs are so tone deaf. I wish Tina Fey (and other writers) would stick to writing about things she actually knows about (being upper class and white). This is why we need more writers from diverse economic backgrounds
I don’t know how much agree with the rest of the video; but as for the grizz and dot com part it’s not just funny because they’re black, it’s funny because they’re big tough guys and bodyguards as well. That’s a trait that transracially isn’t associated with intelligence for better or worse. The Grizz and dot com jokes that you featured in the video would still work if they were big tough white guys wearing leather jackets and smoking, instead of tough black guys wearing chains and stereotypically ‘gangster clothing’. As for characters being stereotypes, i don’t believe that’s the case. You either follow a stereotype or subvert it right? But you seemed to have a problem with both, tracy and toofer. At what points can characters exist without representing every physical or mental trait associated with them? If you take the characters as they are, they are both plausible people that exist in the real world. I think this is a good conversation to have and can see where you’re coming from but i wouldnt agree. I think the best case against 30 rock is that tracy is a racial stereotype, but i think that’s broken by the fact that twofor exists so the show is essentially making the statement “this is just tracy” he doesn’t represent his race. Tracy as well is also like that in his real life, so can you claim a character is a stereotype when they are essentially just playing themself. I think the only way to overcome racism is to become familiar with the stereotypes and not be offended by them, just to understand why they do exist or have historically existed, i think if we call all stereotypes racist i think we’re saying “turn a blind eye to the problem”.
Yeah, this video boils down to "White woman makes racial jokes, and that's makes me unconfortable"
At best it's useless media comentary, and at worst is an insinuation of "secret racism".
i feel like the narrator focused way too much on race here
to me, the appeal behind grizz and dot com (especially dot com, the character was so likable) was that they were huge guys in an entourage that actually didn't fit the stereotype, especially not that of the celebrity they were employed by
maybe for every other viewer or just the narrator, it was about the duo's race but if I saw huge guys as part of an entourage for an obnoxious celebrity, the unexpectedly gentle personality would be humorous regardless of race
exactly. and the fact that grizz and dot com exist alongside toofer means tracy is the outlier. AND on top of all of that, a lot of the things tracy does, he does it to protect his stereotype image. he WANTS to be seen as a stereotype because thats what makes him money and gets him movie roles like "who dat ninja". there was that episode where he got a fake dragon face tattoo because he was afraid people thought he had become stable and unfunny and he confessed to jack that he had never cheated on angie and even agreed to get a tattoo of her face and then later wanted to cover the tattoo up to say "tangiers" and turned her face into a "gay lion" because heavens forbid people think hes actually faithful to his wife.
Ochicharo
Also Grizz and dot com were extremely smart... as side characters they provided a lot of intelligent advice to Tracy and acted as the voice of reason, which was a joke in itself as the bodyguard character would ordinarily be completely passed over
Terry Crews (yes he happens to be black too) has made a whole career around playing tough but sensitive characters like in BNN, The Rock has done characters like that, Jackie Chan and Vin Diesel have done movies where they have to babysit children and do womanly things.
This is why BIPOC need to keep writing, and get into positions of hiring and hire writers. We live in a fish tank where all we know is the world curated for us largely by white Hollywood. I don’t fault Tina Fey for doing art as she knows it, we just need more variety of talented, thoughtful writers.
People of color did write some of the examples in the video, though. I'm not saying I don't agree with you that we need more BIPOC (and other minorities) creating content and finding a platform - we absolutely do. But saying you don't fault a white woman for allowing the work of a black man to air on her television show is a little confusing.
I expected to be made uncomfortable by this, from the title, not because I thought it was wrong but because I love 30 Rock so much. Instead I'm mostly coming away like "YEAH, THAT'S FAIR."
I'd go even further, in fact, and say that as a white-ish female-ish person, a lot of Fey's jokes about gender left me feeling kind of awkward too. Does anyone else remember that episode of 30 Rock where Liz Lemon wants to be treated equally and is getting on her employees case about treating her the same as they would a male boss, and they get back at her by expecting her to lift heavy objects and go to a strip club "like a man would"? And the idea that equality means treating everyone like a man and that there's inherently a difference between the way men want to be treated and the way women want to be treated just goes unexamined? Awkward.
"-And the idea that equality means treating everyone like a man"
daaaaaaaamn
Ain't that something to think about.
Yes, ALL of the sex and race related humor on 30 Rock reads like this.
I feel like that was the joke tho??? Like thats exactly the issue when modern day feminists or whoever say they want equality because equality isn't actually getting to the root of the problem. I like to think it was a subtle multilayered joke
That's because what people really want is fairness, and not equality. However, for some reason most people are under the impression that those two words mean the same thing.
How is comedy that points that out awkward? SOunds hilarious
I too love 30 Rock deeply, but in my most recent rewatch I was like "huh, they really had Jane Krakowski do blackface TWICE and only acknowledged that it was wrong the first time."
Sarah Patterson Sometimes you have to trust your audience to laugh and shake their head in their own without you having to tell them to do it.
I could not stop thinking about that lol
Also Jack is a Huge racist but his bigotry towards POC, women, poor people, and gay people is written off as a funny character quirk instead of a problem. And Liz is best friends with him despite all that, which I can't figure out if it's clever social commentary on how white liberals often act as facilitators and allies to white supremacy or if I'm overthinking it.
It also bugged me how Twofer was presented as an intellectual progressive, yet he was incredibly transphobic and against black women.
FeministKJ Those characters are presented as they exist, not how we would like them to be. We meet these twisted people everyday in our lives. Jack had all these flaws but he also had many embarrassing and teachable moments. He disliked Devlin Banks because he was a younger and sharkier copy of himself but never hesitated to use his own sex appeal with him (some excellent and funny dialogues these two). Tracy and Jack are probably the same character to me: same modest origins, “self-made”, high net worth, a rep to protect, executive power, one is obsessed with control and fails, the other seems out of control but is the most stable and well rounded. Jack is also that Irish stereotype of alcoholics poor from Boston.
Regarding Toopher, he was a classic representation of black people in America when it comes to the treatment of women and trans. A degree from Harvard couldn’t erase that - we cannot assume that a racial minority is gonna be woke on all fronts.
Jenna is an idiot. They put the idiot character to do blackface to show how stupid and insensitive it is.
@@FeministCatwoman Please write a comedy, or a drama, or any narrative where there is no moral ambiguity or internal moral conflict and see how compelling it is. The world isn't black and white (Haha).
Found this after the whole thing with 30 rock and black face came out today.
Forgive me if I just missed some news somewhere, but what happened?
I'm not going to lie... I'm kind of bummed out about the loss of those episodes. I don't have any disagreement with the premise of this video and this is the kind of dialogue that's really interesting to have about race and even just about humor. At the same time, Tina Fey pulled the episodes, citing that intent is never an excuse. I would rather have had the series kept intact, even to be used as an opportunity to further discussion. Intent and, more importantly, context absolutely do matter, and deserve to be examined as the world evolves.
You and I use the word “obsessed” in very different ways. And what makes it weird? I still don’t understand.
its weird because she is white i guess? Its a weird topic for a video. Its doesnt really address anything it just highlights it?
Apparently it's because she's not in "her lane."
Why is it so important that she stay in her lane? It would seem as though that proof has been left as an exercise for the reader...
You do know Tina Fey doesn't write the entire show, right? There were like 30 other writers, including Hannibal Buress and Donald Glover. She's not even the sole executive producer.
I started thinking about the "unfriendly black hotties" in mean girls and started thinking about how much fey talks about race in her work (sometimes unsuccessfully) and I found your video! This was really great! Thank you for making it
you are such an icon for having quality subtitles in 2018
I’m so glad the UA-cam algorithm finally put you on my radar! What a great video
I remember hearing a popular black female podcaster (who for the love of me I can't remember her name) calling Fey's humour 'unwoke wokeness' which pretty much sums it up. She sort of uses racism and racist characters to highlight how funny and stupid racism is. The only problem is that if the joke doesn't land it just comes across as racist, while also a lot of the time the jokes only work for white people. Like how the joke about Tina's character on 30 rock thinking some brown guy is a terrorist is suppose to point out "haha aren't we white people just awful' while it wouldn't work for the brown audience because they can't relate to finding random brown people terrorist-y.
Ok, I wanted to hear the argument, I listened, watched the whole video and here's my big take-away: the 'privilege of talking about race frequently' for comedians anyway is something that can only be doled out by people of the appropriate skin color. So if you're making jokes about black people be black, chinese be chinese, etc. etc.
The problem is just as often if not more often people will sell out their race, push stereotypes, and rake in the cash whether or not they are of said race. A comedians job is not to shore up the status quo or push some moral agenda (because whatever your wanna call 'moral responsibility', its a stupidly subjective term that often comes up when someone is trying to change your behavior to better suit what they believe is right). At its best comedy, or at least satire, is both a mirror and a balm, attempting to ameliorate the pain of cognitive dissonance and obvious injustice through exaggerated reflection, while attempting to get us to reflect on those same things by laughing at them. Getting people comfortable talking about race is a big part of making that conversation happen honestly. Suggesting that this can only be done by this or that group of people strikes me as counter-productive. I mean, I could make the argument from what you were saying in this video that you think she should have just left black people out of 30 rock altogether, and yea, I know that's not what you're saying here, but the fact that its possible to understand why someone might make that interpretation should send up red flags.
I'd direct you to the Contrapoints video on "the Darkness" - it's related to this and i think she has an interesting perspective that seems kind of similar to what you're saying, and also directly confronting some of those points
30 Rock is one of my favorite shows of all time, and I never miss out on anything with Tina Fey's name on it. While I enjoy probably 98% of the things she does, there are notable moments where a certain joke will make me uncomfortable or make me think, "wow, she went there" and give me a lot to consider.
This video really gets that. Like others have commented, it's like Fey exists in this place where she has realized and accepted that white people are racist because of the way they've learned to interact with race their whole lives. You could have the most liberal upbringing and still somewhere in the back of your mind you will have the conception of "white is normal and anything else is other and strange". Because of this realization her self-awareness is at peak levels and she builds her racial commentary on that. But what's missing is the initiative to not just make fun of the status quo but try to change it.
I know this is an old video but it’s worth pointing out I think that Donald Glover has since come out and said Tiny Fey directly told him he was a diversity hire.
But Donald Glover also has his own notable quirks when it comes to talking about race and specifically asian women in his own career. All just things to think about I think.
You are the perfect one.
Noble one.
Aryan one....
Get a Life Wokieeee
I feel so seen! Thank you for making this video. I also really love Tina Fey, and have noticed this tendency in her work, so it feels good to know I am not alone in my observations. Characters that are people of color usually have racial tropes as an essential part of their character. It is a defining part of their screen time/dialogue. Her portrayal of Asian people is even more problematic. There was a movie she did with Amy Poehler, where they played sisters, and I remember being disappointed by the way Asian's were represented in that movie. It was the first time I noticed how much her humor uses racial tropes as punchlines.
You've articulated perfectly why I both love and actively critique Fey's work.
This exact sentence..!
^^^
Man, I love you sometimes T1J. This video's ending really made me feel warm inside
Great use of that Lindsay Ellis quote. Video essays should maybe start a "thing exists" genre as a response to the criticisms of the common "thing bad" genre. There are many things that are potentially problematic, but with enough caveats that they should really more provoke conversation than outrage. Rebecca Watson's recent video on Baby its Cold Outside could have been in that format and it probably would have been a better video if it were.
As a non-white, non-black person, when I watched the show, I didn't care what race the characters were most of time. For example, Chris and Dot Com were funny not necessarily because they're big black guy who were sophisticated; I think they were funny because they were these big teddy bears that were supposed to be bodyguards.
I like the fact that she approaches race a much as she does. Black comedians do it all the time.
-black woman
DONT know what black comedians doing it make any sense to bring up nor does bringing up your race make your point any more valid.
Stereotypes and archetypal figures of all stripes are often used in parody and satire to create a certain response or make a certain point but just because something is satirical in nature doesn't mean every gag has to be lined with commentary. That would be a burden to watch. There can be no limits in comedy if comedy is the intent and if you need to have something explained or justified to you that is clearly comedic (whether you like it or not) then maybe it's time to steer clear of comedy altogether and resort to watching overly serious dreck. Gritty realism rarely mixes well with comedy, after all.
I'd also like to point out that every criticism the video points out is undermined completely by the uploader's own understanding of the premise and intent, rendering this video pointless babble for the sake shit-stirring. The axe swings both ways often in Fey's works. White people are just as susceptible to being stereotyped and lampooned or "exploited", as he puts it, for the sake of a gag. And him saying "that's her lane" immediately tells me what this is. There is an inherent desire to paint something inoffensive as offensive solely because of his own concept of propriety. That is more divisive than any joke could ever be.
It was always really off putting to me how she portrayed Africa in Mean Girls
Right, one second Cady is speaking Swahili and the next the vase is from a a tribal region in the south.
@@broadway520 That could make sense in real life, though. Like if you live in Manila in the Philippines and then visit Tokyo, you can bring a souvenir that is still of continental cultural significance, but just not from where you lived. A travel souvenir, yanno? Heck, you can do that no matter where in the world you live. I live in America, but my mom is from the Philippines, and I have tons of souvenirs from there. My dad's visited China and he has souvenirs from there. I don't think it's weird, unless you're someone who doesn't travel.
Also, I wanted to mention: very impressed by the conversations in the comments.
What a thoughtful piece of commentary. Thank you so much for this.
It’s really hard for me to watch Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt with the Jacqueline plot line because I am also a white-passing indigenous person so it’s like nails on a chalkboard. The audacity to cast her Polish friend in the role doesn’t help the overwhelming sense of wrongness when it comes up. White passing is so so common for indigenous people, especially if you’re mixed (Métis in Canada) so it’s absolutely wild that this is a plot in her show that has basically nothing real in it. It should have been so easy to find consultants or an actor that actually fit the bill, but instead everything about it feels like a funhouse mirror to reality. I really feel like it was something that came up in the writers room mid production that made everyone laugh so they did it, simple as that.
That actress was going to be the third lead of the show no matter what. So they could either A make the indigenous people a big part of the show i.e. her story, or relegate that to an even smaller plot/character
@@tati9867 hot tip don't do the thing you're mocking, especially if you're playing it 100% straight. i s2g at one point there was a literal eagle screech sound effect when she ~revealed herself~
I don’t think all of the race stuff is unproblematic but I have to say I assumed that the black Frasier gag was about tv just having no originality.
Hannibal has also witten some very key episodes of 30 rock
I feel like it's subversing TV stereotypes (as an industry) rather than tackling anything close to racial issues. It's just like the Marx Bros, it's comedy for the sake of comedy with a heavy streak of industry satire and absurdist gags.
Great piece. In my humble opinion, Tina Fey's primary blindspot is class, and this may possibly explain some of the choices she makes in her writing and humor.
Ken Hymes how is that?
So Dave Chappelle should never have to explain none of his jokes
Did you watch the video?
I think the video is looking at the whole Tiny Fey/30 Rock thing through African-American eyes. In fact, that is obvious. There are others who look at it through "mainstream culture" eyes. I think Griz and Dot.com could be white. In fact, Tracy Jordan could be white. He would not be a common, middle America, suburban guy, of course. But Tracy Jordan is hardly ordinary, either. Consider the characters on the Beverly Hillbillies. What if they were black? Who would be fooled thinking that that hypothetical series would be funny because the central characters are black? How about if the banker, Mr. Drysdale were black? We would have another Toofer. His black ethnicity would be slightly funny for one joke.
There was this asswipe I worked with a few years ago. One day a black woman muttered at him something about his being a racist for not holding the door for her when she was holding two cups of coffee. She was seeing insensitivity through the eyes of a black woman which to her, translated to racism. In reality he was not a racist and his action (or lack thereof) was not racism. It was asswipeism with race playing no part.
I don't think another soul on this planet could have played Tracy Jordan.
I really enjoyed your breakdown here, It felt even-handed and honest. We need more of that in the world. As a privileged white cis male from Alabama that has spent a majority of his life fighting the anti-racist fight, it can at times be hard to see where the lines are. A good example, for me, Chappelle Show was an exciting time because it felt like what he was doing with the show was so widely excepted and there was a lot of commentary in that work. It felt like there was some level of healing going on while his show was on the rise. Then at some point you see the paradigm shift and what seemed like laughing with became laugh at.
meh. I don't really see it. nothing seems malicous.
and now she was in Pixar's first black lead movie
I noticed this!! thank you for addressing it!!
Curious why you didn't mention the yellow face episode of Kimmy...