Standing out is fine, as long as you don't think it makes those who don't stand out worth less than you. Being successful as an individual is fine as long as it isn't to the detriment of the collective.
Those ten rules are really not the laws of Jante. Nowadays it is about not bragging and think you are better than anyone else, simply not pushing anyone else down. Which in my opinion is a good thing. And I don't know what you mean about Jante holding people back. Ingvar Kamprad is a prime example of the laws of Jante in work. He was a great entrepreneur and filthy rich, though he drove his old Volvo, gave ALL staff bonuses and made his kids work for the money. That is why IKEA and Ingvar is so popular here. I think that is the biggest misunderstanding of the laws of Jante - that you cannot be successful as an individual. You can and you should. But as you said, just because you've got a master degree doesn't mean you are more important than the Swedish teacher who just graduated. That doesn't mean, for example, you shouldn't earn more. Just don't brag about it. And taxes are not about Jante, but socialism.
+1 , and here in Sweden we do not need to show our new car, jacuzzi,new apartment to get friends and status. I know many people in Sweden who makes 30 000 sek after taxes and they barely have a car or a new computer. That is the mentality that differs Sweden and U.S
@@JakobTennisMB As a person who has studied Arts, I can say that there is a problem with conformity for middle to higher class society. The right dress just about the same as everybody else that shares their way of life, while the left dress however they want. It's all about being humble, really.
@@SuperElite27000000 It would also apply to him. But the fact that he had to overcome some barriers in getting there would also be criticized. It’s not good to toot your own horn, but society shouldn’t create conditions in which Mohammed Ali should be special. You know? I think it’s okay to be against both.
I would say that everyone in Sweden have heard about Jantelagen (The Law of Jante) but we don't really "live by it". Especially young people aren't afraid to stand out. I wouldn't say that we don't celebrate individuality, because we do, but we focus more about the society as a whole compared to the US. I've lived in both Sweden (grew up here) and in the US (while I was studying) and I found that I truly appreciate how swedes are less likely to brag. But as you said- it depends on how you're raised. I grew up in a family where bragging was seen as a really bad thing, but not bragging didn't exclude the possibility to be celebrated as an individual. I like the honesty and the way that americans are more "straight forward" and that swedes can learn from that. But I also believe that americans think to much of themeselves and can come across as arrogant sometimes.
Privat Jaa vissa har förmodligen inte hört om det, men de absolut flesta vet vad det innebär. Tycker själv detta är ett intressant ämne och har därför diskuterat det mycket och har aldrig träffat någon som inte har vetat vad det innebär.
I like honesty, but I feel Americans are less honest on average compared to Swedes. Lip service for the sake of superficial politeness and for making themselves seeming like a great person, while as I feel Swedes just do the least politeness possible and avoid "politeness lying" unless it's really important. This would of course vary between regions in the US, but superficial politeness and "fakeness" seems very common in for instance their south/bible belt. The in-your-face socially one-upping others as a way to assert social dominance (which isn't a just US or south US thing) seems common there, and that's really disturbing to me. I've noticed it being in general common in more religious rural areas all over the world. More of a socially dog eat dog culture in such locations I presume. I wouldn't be surprised if we had more of it in tinier more religious villages too, but thankfully we're not that religious in Sweden. (No, I don't think religion is inherently bad, but power corrupts and religious power is one of the most common kinds people can use against each other and as leverage for their family's social status where life is harsher).
@@vervemonke5971 Your reply was amazing. Such an interesting topic how power moulds societies, isn't it? Let's take Marvel for example: it kinda results ironic to me that Captain America is the one that got the "America" in his name as a cultural icon for people, instead of Iron Man who suits better the american role model.
arrogant sometimes? They brag about their salaries, their status, their college degree.. and most don't even have a passport to step outside their shady US-bubble. Americans? No thanks.
Jantelagen is there to destroy hubris, not to keep people down. The mentality of "we are one" and "everything belongs to us as a collective" is what's made us one of the very top countries in the world. It's a mentality that makes us proud of our socialized systems because we know that we, the people, own it together by paying for it with taxes. We work hard for what we deserve. Summed up it's pretty much just "you are *not* better than anyone else just because you're rich and powerful." Also, it's a fictional law but it embodies the mentality and the foundation of the Scandinavian peoples and our societies.
The irony is that IRL most Swedes express themselves opposite to what the Jantelagen teaches, and your comment is a great example of that where you are of the impression that Sweden is "one of the top countries in the world".
P t. Well The jante law doesn’t erase facts. It’s not the Swedes them self that calls them that. It’s different world wide spread surveys that rank Sweden as one of the top countries. As a Dane, where I really can see the jante law is in our work places, There’s is this non formal relationship, often all the way from the top to the bottom.
sweden is the rape capital of eroupe.(google it).1 of the top countries in the world??????!!!! yeah sure we are not in the 80s or 90s anymore..time 2 wake up
Fun fact: Jantelagen was written as a satire that grew a following. We are not taught to live like that but culturaly we do adhere to it to some extent
Jantelagen has become more of a running joke nowadays. Comedy shows such as Solsidan uses Jantelagen as a comedic narrative. But yeah the core thoughts behind Jantelagen is still deeply rooted in the swedish culture. As not to bother others, expressing superiority over others and more.
It’s the kid of collectivism seen in nations that are or not long ago were monarchies. Subjects and serfs only have as many rights as they are allowed. Hell, Russian serfs were property that “was tied to the land they worked” until the 20th century. As an American, the common question you ask a new acquaintance is “What do you do for a living?” I’ve noticed that’s not common in Europe. Especially in the UK, it seems social stratification seems to keep people “in their place”. Another odd thing is while my experience in the USA is to continually strive upward, whether socially or in business, in the UK people are less likely to feel the same way. And if one does stick their neck out and fail, the expectation is to “fall back in your place” rather than try again
The law of Jante is not that strong in Sweden ( so far as I know). It was alot stronger before 1960-70, but it has been detoriorating since. About USA, I dont think their society is that much more open about things ( with meeting strangers yes but if it is something like in the school or workplace I do think it is similar to Sweden).
I think the most important difference is not necessarily the "law of Jante", as it is something that is loosing prevalence in Scandinavian culture. However, the biggest difference is the individualistic and elitist culture that is prevalent in the States (and UK) vs the egalitarian culture of the scandinavian countries. The egalitariansim is not from "jante" but from a cultural necessity in terms of survival in the medieval times and before, the concept of community is much stronger if you are dependent on each other for survival, to harvest and to keep your society from crumbling. This has evolved through history and although I cannot speak for Sweden, I know that in Norway, we have had a very strong egalitarian thread through politics and policy up until the 1980's and from then on it has grown weaker, and in the 2000's the prevalence of "them and us" culture has increased. I don't think "jante" stops anyone from pursuing success in their proffessional lives, but I do think it keeps their feet more firmly placed on the ground, more aware of those around them, more willing to contribute back to the society that has helped foster their ability to succeed through free eduation, free health care, and a safety net that would allow them to still have a good life, should their parents have lost their job as they grew up (for example). The lack of safety net contributes to the focus on the I in the US, and it also pushes people to take more risks and fall further should they not succeed. It contributes to the greater difference between the richest and the poorest, it contributes to lack of respect for other people's humanity and their problems.
That's very deep and insightful. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I never thought of the lack of the safety net contributing to more of the focus on the individual but the way you describe it makes since!
Yes I totally agree! Furthermore Jantelagen is one of the things that contributes to Sweden/Scandinavia being some of the most equal nations in the world. If you don’t have the money, the mind or the body to make it in US you are seen as lesser person. Since the US are very focused on the individual it is not as forgiving as countrys that focuses on the society as a whole. Especially since the individual in the US usually means a middle or upper class white male. Our social security nets are not perfect but much bigger and wider than US. The focus on individuality does not help the working or middle class pregnant woman since if she does not have a partner that makes enough money she can not stay home from work with the baby, and in Sweden and actually in all other western countries you have the right to paid parental leave. In Sweden that is 480 days for each child. If course it can in especially in smaller towns/cities be something that can hold you back but I’d say that on the whole jantelagen has contributed to Sweden being a pretty good country to live in. For all.
Althou its not entirely free healthcare, its taxbased. And most ppl of course take student loans to study (for food and rent etc) , at least when studying full time. :).
As a swede I can say that the only thing I ever associated with "Jantelagen" is the quote "laget före jaget" somewhat translated into "the team before me." I dont think a very large amount of the people living in Sweden actually know these "laws" you presented in the video. However they are (I guess) to some extent built into our society. In my personal opinion I believe that these common values that are being embraced in Sweden (will not speak for Norway/Denmark/Finland etc..) is contributing alot to people finding "individual sucess" what that now may be. Having a system in place that is providing people with some of the very basic needs such as healthcare, education etc. for free, is allowing people to take a leap of faith and not having to worry about ending up on the street should it fail.
It does a little bit in Sweden. For example, it is looked down on for 'accomplishing too much' or having too much work experience or education. At least in Småland. Most here like to do only one thing at only one job for their entire lives. And everything is very very slow.
"Americans have a lot of money that they can keep at the end of the day" - Not true. Yes, Americans may pay less taxes but they are paying more out of pocket. Student loans, child care, high education, health insurance...where do you think that money is coming from? From American's out of pocket whereas in Sweden, all that is paid by the taxes they pay so AT THE END OF THE DAY Americans end up spending more than Swedes: taxes + out of pocket expenses.
Yup. 65 percent of all Americans have less than 500 dollars in their savings but keep the illusion alive that Americans have money because they pay less taxes. They live paycheck to paycheck.
It's really interesting because I think the swedish society is better for the average population. However, for someone absolutely crushing it, there is a slightly higher upside in America at least from what I can tell so far.
See, for me, Janteloven is not so much about standing out or being an individual (I've been standing out all my adult life in a Scandinavian society without it ever being a problem, lol), but rather about how you shouldn't boast or think yourself superior to others. The wording of Janteloven is pretty extreme, and not all of it is taken to heart as much as you imply. Culturally we definitely are more about the collective than the individual, but those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. You're free and welcome to set out to achieve whatever you set your mind to do, but you will still be part of the same society, and therefore you will not suddenly be worth more than someone else. Society definitely needs teachers, doctors, scientists and the like, but at the same time it also needs cleaners, shop clerks and garbage collectors.
Humble, humble, humble. Is definitely the keyword, along with respect. You can have a high paying job or a low paying job. What is important is that even when you're successful you can still look up to those who perhaps aren't as such, as they are human as well, you're not superior because of it. And then likewise when you're not as successful as others, you don't become envious and spiteful.
Something that comes to mind is three years ago just as the summer had started, we were having an after-work BBQ outside our workshop. The CEO was working the grill, getting hamburgers, ribs and steaks done while everyone else at the company (about 20+) were chilling with some beers and other spirits, striking conversations and having fun with each other and the boss while having quite a bit to drink. Having told this story quite a few times to people from outside of Sweden, it's almost always the same reaction, wide eyes and gasps, chock. It always comes off as a surprise to many because it seems so foreign that someone in power, the man that orders everyone around and makes the most cash would do such a thing for others. He himself paid for the food and the two fridges full of beer, and then went ahead and made sure people were having a good time, just because he could do so.
I feel the biggest difference is the sense of entitlement.. I'm sorry, I'm not saying this to offend anyone from the US or the states as a country. But most Americans have a huge sense of entitlement, like I'm bigger better stronger than everyone and I should have it the best. It's just the mentality of the country as a whole. Take sports for example, NHL, NFL, NBA, MLB, most leagues call their winners world champions, like uh? Okay? But you're not. You're national champions/league champions. Imagine a European league just randomly calling their winners world champions..? We do have world championships for a reason, and to be fair, the US haven't won some of the bigger ones for a hot minute.. And that goes for everything, why WOULD someone get to cut in line? Because they're better than anyone else? At what? Life? Who determines who's more important and should be treated better? That's a huge can of worms that just doesn't get opened when you try to treat people as equal, rather than having an individualistic society and trying to up each other. It also teaches you patience, to let everyone have their turn and not just think me me me. Clearly there are flaws in every society, but I feel like "the laws of jante" gets blown out of proportion and taken the wrong way a lot of times when it's talked about. Most Swedes use it as a joke. While yes, we don't want to try and feel superior to others, it's not like you can't still strive to be the best. You just don't have to shove it down other peoples throats and make them feel inferior. Sorry for the rant, this is a big topic with so many layers and has recently been discussed within the cheerleading community so I've been thinking and talking about it a lot the last few days. Also sorry for any spelling and/or grammatical errors, clearly I'm Swedish so English isn't my native language and it's 4am lol.
coorrupted ... But look how stupid you are... World Champion NASCAR racer is NASCAR world Champion.. Only the USA has NASCAR.. Name one Swedish NASCAR Champion. .. Youre stupid.
coorrupted ..we got stuff that the whole world doesnt have.. WORLD CHAMPION stuff that makes the rest of the world jealous as hell. WORLD CHAMPION MUD TRUCK GIRL COMPETION the entire Muslim world is automatically disqualified. think about that shit ua-cam.com/video/LBP6kLPHTuI/v-deo.html
Gloomshadow100 This is a perfect example of the American biased way to see things, not only you want to be better than anyone else, you actually think that you already are, it doesn't matter how much proof you're giving that you're not, you will keep believing and claiming it. The world is not jealous as hell, I'm part of the world and didn't even know what you mentioned existed. And like me many other people
So interesting to hear your take on it as "an outsider"! I think however that a big thing that gets missed when talking about the Law of Jante is along the lines of what you said when you spoke about the positive side of it. To not let success get to your head and treat people as if they're less than you. When taken literally the Law seems (and is) really bad, but there is another side to it. Yes, you should seek success, but just because you succeed doesn't mean you're better than anyone else. Just because you've accomplished great things doesn't make you worth more than anyone else. If we think about it not in terms of thinking we are not good enough/better than anyone else but to change the perspective and think about how other people are worth just as much as us and how other people are just as awesome and that you are too. Just don't boast about it, because that's what Jante wants to change. Your not better than anyone else. Even if someone is broke and living on the streets they are just as valuable as you are, but focusing on outward appearence it could be seen as we are better. That is the mindset that needs to change. This was a really long post, but it's a really interesting topic in my opinion. What do you other swedes think about it? And you Stefan?
Hi Johanna. I agree, this is an interesting topic and I also think that the law of Jante, at least today, works the way you describe. Equality is a word that describes that perspective really well. Today I think you find more Swedes standing out and boasting about achievements than you did 30 or 40 years ago but they are still a small minority. One thing that sometimes contradict this Jante-lag is the way we Swede look at our country... I often find comments from Swedes about their pride being from here, a lot of us feel we are the best country in the world... And these comments are not seldom found when some Swede(s) has done something good... may it be sports, music or technology.... And maybe we do live in the best country in the world... in some aspects at least ;)
Jante lagen is actually more like "dont walk around and think you're better/more special than everyone else." It's not anything like the way he described it in the video. ^^
Johanna you make some great points. I think it's an interesting topic because the laws themselves come off as sort of harsh, but the underlying principle that we are all equal is pretty solid.
I'm a 17 year old girl and live in Skåne (southern part of Sweden) and "Jantelagen" is not really something that I was raised with and not something that is seen as a really good thing by anyone I know, sure you are to respect every human and not devalue others but you should also aim for personal successes and at the same time be grateful for what you have so that you are happy no matter how much success you end up having. We do celebrate personal success and aim to be the best versions of ourselves (at least where I come from). It is true that it is more accepted to have a more neutral and clean look but at the same time a lot of us are very supportive of embracing our individuality in every way and finding your true passion. Of course I can only speak from my own perspective and experience so I might not be as objective but I thought it valuable to share anyway so people know that "Jantelagen" not is a philosophy that all Swedes full-heartedly are raised by and not is valued as something good by everyone, rather something we aim to change because it devalues the individual in a society where we are striving for equality and individual as well as communal happiness.
That's a very interesting perspective and beautifully said, thanks for sharing! I think there's a balance between valuing the individual and valuing the community and in a perfect world, I think everyone would work together but not be looked down on for pursuing individual accomplishments as well.
Linnéa Edenkrantz Jantelagen is not that you shouldn't strive for personal success. People can do whatever they want with their lives. It's that you shouldn't think you are better than anyone else just because you, for example, are more successful.
Emil Söderback Spot on, I was gonna write the exact same thing. Basically you should always strive to be better, but never brag about it or let it get to your head. And definitely never expect or demand special treatment because of your social status, in fact, don't even mention it.
Part of Jante is very much to be taken seriously. But some parts you listed is just to the extreme and to break it down simple. You can absolutely think you are extra skilled at something but you can never brag about it and pretend you're better than someone else regarding of their situation in life.
You are overexaggerating quite about this law buddy.. Jante lagen is actually more like "dont walk around and think you're better/more special than everyone else." That's pretty much it. I'm a swede and I've always been encouraged to follow my dreams and such. It's not as harsh as you describe it mate. :)
I don't necessarily think Jantelagen is taken that literal in Sweden. As opposed to for example the Amendments in the US, where the sentences are actual laws, Jantelagen is more of a general idea of humbleness that derived from the original Jantelag. It doesn't hinder personal success, and only hinders individuality to a small degree, depending on how you interpret it. The way most Swedes (in my experience) think of Jantelagen is just to always be humble and to never think yourself a better human being than someone else. Of course you can still have personal success and be better than other people at certain things. How Jantelagen usually is followed is to not let that success get to your head (like you said) and to always treat people with respect. But it is definitely true that the general ideas of Jantelagen has had a big impact on Swedish society and culture, and especially on how people behave in public. It is probably also a factor as to why, as you have mentioned in previous videos, Swedes are typically more reserved and not as friendly towards strangers. To summarize: The ideas of Jantelagen has had an influence on Swedish culture and behavior but it's not taken very literal by most people, and rather acts as a symbol for humbleness and respect towards others. At least that is how I have experienced it as a Swede myself.
Hi again, I’ve managed to combine the best of both cultures in my career here in Sweden. I’ve been very “American” by being both extremely focused and also optimistic about my job and career goals. For example, when I was your age I once told a Swedish guidance counselor that wanted to work in business or management. She explained that it would be extremely difficult for me as an immigration but wished me luck. 4 years later I was on my first international business trip in London and calling the home office in Stockholm to confirm my appointment with IBM. 15 years later I employed that very same guidance councilor as a substitute at the technical school where I was principal. 😉 You set your own goals and limits here. The key to success is to become fluent in the language and understand plus accept the culture. I do like the way Swedes think and do business and honestly, not everyone is keen on the jantelagen because as we say here in Sweden, Lagom is best.
Lagom == law of Jante. It brings down the fun in life to be honest. That´s why as swedes we are akin to appreciate cultures from other countries and want to come out of our shell. Being lagom is like being enclosed in a cowrie shell
wait, what? In America there are strict dress codes in schools but in Sweden (or at least in Stockholm) people dress however they like. there are even girls with see-through tops and NO BRAS and some dudes with short skirts. and that's just in a few schools I've been too.
Jantelagen today is more like "Please go be successful, but don't be obnoxious and in peoples face about it". It's not jealousy, but frowning upon bragging. It's like a scale where in one end you have politeness, and in the other you have rudeness. If you constantly let other people know how good you are, you won't have friends in Sweden. Or friends competing with you to top off your accomplishments. How relaxing..
I think the law is actually quite good in the sense that it promotes humility and equality. The only thing I don't think is right is to not believe that anyone cares about you. I think it's very important to believe that you are cared for and loved for your human value. Other than that I think it's a very good law to have to promote humility and equality.
That's true Jennifer, the one that said 'you're not to believe that anyone cares about you' is the one that really caught my eye and made me think the law was a bit extreme
I also think it's good for selfesteem to be proud of the positive things you've done in your life. There's nothing wrong with being proud of yourself :)
how is it even humanity when the hosbital, the cops and the old people, the swedish peopel in general, the swedish Democrats voters gets humiliated and called every racist name in the book how is that equality? Seeriously sweden is a left wing feminist and muslim paradise that only them gets to have a good life in everyone ells who speaks up the issue the goverment and the curropted media has created gets silence and kicked out from the jobs we have. Sweden is a joke nothing more and nothing ells.
The law of Jante does not say that you should not succeed at what you are doing. It just says that you should not expect success to give you any benefits. It says that you should expect to be treated the same way as your disabled or unemployed neighbour (as in your example with the work permit). It also means that trying to use your title or income as a way to get benefits will likely be met with some level of contempt. Becuase of our tax system giving every citizen a more equal footing (take the tuition free school system as an example) your wealth or family name or other "elitist" markers that are so prominent in the US holds a lot less weight here. We don´t dislike successful people, we are just not very likely to idolize them or let them make us feel inferior, if that makes sense.
Cecilia - Half of the population of Sweden immigrated to America in the 1800's, due to poor living conditions in Sweden at the time. The US government had given railroad companies vast amounts of fertile farmland in the upper midwest to sell. They sent recruiters to Sweden and paid their ship fare to come to America and sold them farmland in the states of Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, Montana, Iowa, etc. The people were poor so the railroads financed the farms with low monthly payments. The people of Europe back then were peasants that were ruled over by Monarchs and rich Oligarchs that owned most of the land, so when they came to America where they had their own farms, it was like going to heaven. My great grandparents came to America back in the great immigration wave between 1880-1924, and came here broke. When they died, they had acquired ten thousand acres of land. They were hard workers and worked from daylight till dark, like most people did back then. I have that same ambition to make a lot of money, which I'm sure would be frowned upon in the Marxist socialist countries of Europe. No matter what the cultural norms are, women are attracted to a man with money that can provide for her. It's just the way God made women and for thousands of years the woman stayed at home and raised the children while the man went out and worked. It's still in the collective subconscious of women that's passed down through genetics. Women want safety and security. I might be breaking your law of Jante by bragging about my successful business and that I own 15 automobiles, but if it gets me a beautiful wife such as yourself, it's worth breaking that law. LOL I hope you like cats, because when we get married you will become a mother to my 2 cats. LOL I was just curious, are most Swedish women feminists? I hear this a lot.
Of course I am feminist, but feminism means literally equalism. Females should have the same opportunities and salaries as men, not any better. Most normal and good people are equalists! You talk like you still are living in the time where the great immigration took part. "A woman need a man that provides for her" Lol, yeah a golddigger woman maybe;-) Or a lazy one!
Linnie G - I think a man should make double what a woman makes, just kidding, all salaries should be the same if you do the same job. Be honest though, if you could marry a husband that has a lot of money, where you can stay at home with the children and be a housewife, would you not prefer this over working away from the home for 40 hours a week? Society has changed, but women's genetics are still the same. Most women are looking for a man that can provide for them, because women carry the babies and need someone to go hunting and bring home a deer to feed the family, or go out and make money to bring home to feed the family. God also made animals like this. My male cat goes and hunts, and instinctively brings the mouse home to my female cat and drops it in front of her. I feed my cats expensive cat food so they don't need to hunt to survive, but they still have this instinct to go hunting and bring the prey home to the female to nourish her while she nurses their kittens. If you and I were to get married, I would go out hunting and bring home mice for you to eat too, so you can be nourished and lactate to breast feed our baby, LOL.
*Hi, it´s me* I have had female cats that does the same as your male cat. Because you refer to "God" I think you are one of those conservatives and maybe you have only met women that see you as someone that can be "male, strong and provide for her and your kids", like they were thinking 300 years ago and still does in muslim countries. I guess that would be great IF you are a woman that wanna have kids and go to penecostal meetings/church/mosque. But I am a modern woman living in a somehow big city (Stockholm) and I like my job and interests and I don´t want any kids, but if I wanted I would never ever want a man to provide for me and some kids, what happen when I wanna divorce or he wanna divorce? In Sweden you don´t call a lawyer that are trying to get as much money for you as possible, the male just need to pay for the children, not a damn shit to the female that offered many years to stay at home (as it should be) as I say we have a more equal society and even men stay at home with their kids (modern men). I wish it was like that when I was younger cause my dad always worked and of course that´s why I have less good contact with him than with my mum (they are divorced and my mum didn´t get anything for the 5 years she stayed at home, but ok later she earned ass much or even more than my dad). But you are at least a gentleman even if you are a little bit "after your time" (not rude ment), some men in Sweden wants all the equal things here (like they don´t need to provide for a wife or an ex wife) they want all the good things from it but hate "feminists" but they are already living in an equal society and get all the good things from that too. Not only women get good things out of equality, if your dream are to stay at home then this society are less good, but don´t think many women even think about that as a possability anymore. Cause a very few men are like you nowdays; they actually WANT to provide for a wife and even support her if a divorce happen. To be honest a society are going better if both males and females work, even in the muslim world they realize it in some countries, like Iran. Daycare are given to everyone here in Sweden nowdays and you pay as much as everyone does, I think it´s like 100 dollars for one month, so even people on wellfare can affort that. Hope you find the wife of your dreams;-)
"Go hunting and bring a deer" it sounds both like a nice fairytale and very unfamiliar. I can´t even handle a gun and I am a city girl.. So it sounds very strange to me, but at the same time; that´s where we all comes from and the meat are surely superdelicate! I have only eaten fresh fish that I brought up on the plate myself, once, when I was a kid. That was awesome. Now I am vegetarian cause of the food industry.
Having a system that focuses on the collective doesn't necessary mean you will have less opportunities to pursue individual success. Swedes pay higher taxes, sure. But they also have a system every citizen can benefit from in order to achieve this individualistic success. Take free education for example. Just because you have a small amount of extra cash over at the end of the month (due to lower taxes) doesn't mean you always have the money to pay for the education needed to start your own business or get the job you always wanted. But... in the end I'm sure there are ups and downs with both systems. Interesting to hear your opinions though :)
I have firsthand experience with Jantelagen hampering progress of both overachieving and underachieving students in school. Since there has to be equal treatment in schools (which I think is stupid by the way) they are not allowed to have special groups for either over- or underachievers. Of course, it varies a bit even within Sweden, but in general that's the way it is. I was an overachiever in mathematics and an underachiever within basically anything that had to to with writing, but I wasn't allowed to do anything more difficult within mathematics, despite having gone through every single thing in the book. This was in second grade. The teachers eventually gave in and I got to do a bunch of tests. When I was done with all of those, it turned out that I had answered everything perfectly, but at that point, I was basically above the level of a 6th grader. Because of that, the highest they could give me was the book 6th graders had, despite already proving that I could solve whatever was in them. I had that book all the way up to 7th grade, so for about four and a half year I sat with the same book, doing little to nothing. Of course, I could spend more time on something else, but it was really boring. Then just a few years ago, I experienced another similar thing. I studied at something called folkhögskola, and since I liked mathematics and I assumed it'd be beneficial for the future, I wanted to study even more difficult mathematics, but because the others were at a lower level than that, the principal said that I wasn't allowed, despite the teacher being fully qualified to teach it. I've since bought the book and worked through it all, but the thing is, since I wasn't allowed to do it there, that's something left unverified and I can't even use it if I want to study something that requires it. If I didn't dislike Jantelagen before that, I certainly do now. It's good when it works but horrible when it doesn't. As long as people are taught how to respect others, Jantelagen is redundant. As for the concept of treating others the way you want to be treated, that's told in Sweden as well. I am fairly certain that the origin isn't the Bible, but it is written in the Bible at least. "Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you." I don't see why we can't just have that and be done with it. It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp.
It's so cool to hear about your interpretation of the Jante law, and your own experiences of it. I think it's definitely present in Swedish culture. However, it's important to note that the formulation of the law of Jante was never meant to praise or glorify it. It was first codified by a Danish-Norwegian author, Aksel Sandemose, in his book "En flyktning krysser sitt spor" (1933). In it, Jante is the fictional name of a Danish village where the main character ends up after having committed a crime of passion in Newfoundland, and the law of Jante is an reflection on the ignorant and intolerant attitude held by its inhabitants. From the start, the law of Jante is presented as an oppressive way for those who don't know any better to assert their power and not have to get their lifestyles challenged. When Swedes talk about Jante today, it's also most often in negative contexts, like how to not let Jante keep you down and similar. Despite how much we might dislike it, though, I do think there's truth in the observation: Jante lives in us, whether we want it or not.
As a non-Swede, can I ask about what lifestyles were challenged by the main character? And how is the law of Jante in favor of asserting power on others? Isn’t the whole point of it that individuals shouldn’t assert their power on others?
@@k.c7655 The Jante law is a codification of the attitudes the author encountered when growing up in a small town. It's essentially a negative attitude towards worldliness, wider perspectives, knowledge or anything that might challenge the communal sense of pride and accomplishment. So it's definitely about the collective asserting power on an differing individual to conform to the collective. It's a psychological defence: by rejecting any knowledge or reflective thinking that the differing individual might bring, the collective can live on as they have, confident that their opinions and choices are the best ones.
My parents immigrated to the US in the 1920s, met here in the US, got married and raised two children. My first encounter with jantelagen was when I, in my 50s, visited Sweden for the first time. I felt at ease for the most part. People there were unobtrusive, aware of and polite to others. I realized that this was the way I was raised and now better understood my difficulties at times functioning in America. There is far too much self-aggrandizement in the US (exceptionalism illusion). In Sweden, there is little to none of that. People are friendly and seem more confident because they have a more realistic view of themselves in society - they don't seem to live in fantasyland. Sure, every place has its collection of nuts, crooks, and weirdos, but they don't celebrate them in Sweden. Jante also means no hero worship, and there appears to be much less of it in Sweden. My Swedish cousin and I discussed Jante Law. It, in itself, is more of a cultural relic than a law. Yet, it is indelibly in the culture.
These are not "laws", but they appear in a book by the Danish-Norwegian writer Aksel Sandemose, to describe the social norms in the fictional town of Jante, Denmark. Later on, they have been used to describe the Scandinavian mindset.
It can definitely hold people back. This philosophy had a deeper core during the 70 to early 90s. Today individualism is becoming a more common thing. I think that the law of jante can be a good thing in some respects, especially with the point that everybody is equal, no matter how successful you are, but that's just one of my core beliefs. It could be bad for people as well as it might turn down their dreams and such. Anxiety is a big problem in Sweden and I think a lot of the anxiety and depression stems from the law of jante. Good video!
This mentality is older than the 1970s... quite a bit... :) The free spirited noble class has always floated on top of it though. They never cared much. This was mostly for simple people. ;-)
Omg Stefan when I subbed to you, you had like 300subs now up at 15k jeez good job (I’m not chocked super good channel,) let’s see some surströmming eating now!:)
I'm swedish and I'd say "Jantelagen" these days is considered by most people to be a very old concept that has dissolved more and more as time has gone by. But I do agree that remnants of it still remains in our culture to this day. More or less, depending on the person ... well, more accurattely; it depends on how jealous that person tends to be towards others. I personally do my best to distance myself from this Law since I view it as a very negative worldview. I mean, it's important to grow and be happy about success as well as be happy for others too, right? :)
Well, the core of the Jante law is: Just don’t brag too much. No one actually thinks that Jante is the key to anything. We absolutely celebrate individuality and individual success!!
You explained my Swedish father to a T. He was a brilliant man that excelled at many things but spent his life as a civil engineer in public service. He had several degrees and was a reluctant leader. He took long walks and public transportation. He left his children with a strong work ethic and that we were never too good to do any honest work.
As a hole i think swedish people specially young people don't really know Jantelagen, but they still kinda follow it to some degree when they just learn it from starting at birth and thru our culture they get squeezed in to it.
I think the interpretations of the laws of Jante might read more harsh than what they were intended to when you translate it into English. They do sound a bit harsh in Swedish too, but we put it into its appropriate context, which is easily done for us since we grew up in this culture. The Laws of Jante is about minding your own business, remembering that there is a greater picture and a grander scheme of things (you are not the center of the universe, basically), equality, to treat people as if they are of the same worth, be mindful of other peoples feelings, that the collective is stronger than one single lonely individual. But long description made very short, the core essence of Jante is to remind you about how you shouldn't assume that you are better as a person than the other people around you. To remember to be humble. Swedes tend to get really annoyed with people who brag about themselves and that are sort of patting themselves on the back over something they did, or who is constantly talking about themselves, it comes of as arrogant and narcissistic. To be boasting about yourself like that is really unattractive to Swedes. You come of as if you are completely full of yourself. At the same time though! We love to praise people and congratulate them on something they succeeded with or did well, but don't make the mistake to be bragging about it or act smug. We might then think you were either fishing for it, or don't truly value the compliment we just gave you. Swedes are overall very individualistic and caring about the collective at the same time. We've become increasingly more individualistic over the last decade or so, but still, Jante is deeply rooted within our culture and definitely a big part of us as a people.
I think it very much depends on where in Sweden you live when it comes to living by Jante. Bigger cities such as Stockholm might have a more individualistic view than people in rural areas. I've grown up in the north, in a rural area, and with everyone knowing everyone. I think that makes it easier for me to think of the collective first, and me as a person next. Because in tiny places we need the group in a way people from big cities might not. So Jante just came naturally, and we were taught it early. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for success, just as long as it doesn't go to your head. And usually more individual success means greater responsibility to the collective.
As a Swede who was raised by this, I agree with a general focus on the collective. I believe high taxes are necessary for our society to keep running as it is, for roads to be built and maintained, for teachers to get paid, for free healthcare, all of that. I think applying the law on a society scale is a good thing. But I hate how it pushes down individuals. That you can't say you're good at something, or be proud about it. That you can't stand out or be different. That you'll be weird if you wear bright colours. It's very frustrating. I believe in the philosophy on a wide scale, but we shouldn't ignore the individual, and shouldn't make individuals feel bad about themselves. I was called arrogant my whole life, and it always made me feel awful about myself. Then I got American friends and talked to them about it, and they didn't get it at all. What was considered arrogant by Swedish standards was just being proud of yourself by American standards, and the whole thing has impacted my self-esteem in a bad way. I'm 26 and I'm still feeling that.
It's not a philosophy, it's from a Danish book. And no most do not live by it, actually talking about jantelagen, is a way of saying "your to backwards and stiff". Atleast that was the meaning when it was coined. Older generation might abide to it in some degree but that's an eco from Swedens protestant past.
Well, I (a Swede) wasn’t raised being told that I wasn’t enough or to think I am not as Good as ”they” are, rather the opposite. But I’m not overly confident myself, so I tend to ask people like, ”What are you wearing to School now when it’s so warm?” cause I like to Wear somewhat similar things so I don’t look stupid unfortunately- but this is just My personality gleaming through, maybe because I don’t trust my own instincts. There’s so many people in my closest environment who don’t care what other thinks - and I LOVE that. That’s being True to yourself.
First of all it should be noted that "Jantelagen" or the "Law of Jante" isn't an actual law and it's not an old concept at all. It was formulated by a Danish-Norwegian writer named Aksel Sandemose in 1933, in writing about a fictitious town called Jante, which was based on the town he grew up in. It's basically the expression of one individual intellectual who hated the small town where he grew up and who expressed his dissatisfaction with it in literary form. It caught on, because it's frankly not a unique feeling to have - many young people growing up in small towns all over the world chafe at what they view as conservative restrictions and narrowminded thinking around them. The concept was then popularized after the Second World War mainly by the political right in Scandinavia, who viewed the emergence of the social democratic welfare state as a threat to individual freedom. But the Nordic societies have in fact always been more collective then most other places in the world - because we've frankly had to be to survive. Always sparsely populated, the Nordic nations (even before they became nations), contained tribes that for their own survival had to find ways to cooperate against both the harsh elements and foreign threats. When the Vikings went on long journeys across the seas to foreign shores, members of different tribes had to be able to cooperate and share the spoils evenly amongst them. And they had to trust that their wives and children back home weren't attacked while they where gone. So peace had to be kept by the different tribes and within them. One person couldn't demand much more then everyone else, because the contribution of everyone was necessary for the tribe to survive. Sure, a big strong warrior might be important on raids abroad - but without the little girl picking berries in the woods at home or tending the goats, the tribe would have less to eat and possibly starve during the long, harsh winter. Keeping everyone reasonably content and working together towards a common goal was crucial, and as such common rules had to be enforced. The collective was always more important then the individual. Once we got hereditary kings, Sweden never developed the feudal system that was common in mainland Europe - or the system of serfs that was used in Russia. There where always a class of yeoman farmer who owned their own land and paid their taxes directly to the crown - and they had political representation, unlike in the rest of Europe. Because of our low population density, every individual was more valuable for the work they could produce and as such they held a stronger position. Neither kings, the nobility nor the church ever achieved the complete control over the people like they did down on the continent. So even if those times where obviously not democratic, there was still always slightly less of a hierarchical society in Sweden - and even people of the lower social orders weren't quite as brutally exploited as elsewhere. The old traditions of cooperation and collectivism then meant that when socialism emerged in the 19th century, the Nordic workers where very well equipped to utilities those principles to organize themselves. The labor movement and then socialist political parties where built on the basic idea that the collective is stronger then the individual - and as that has always been understood in Nordic life to be true, it was probably easier here then elsewhere to organize according to those principles. In general it brought great benefits to the average worker and citizen - but it also demanded sacrifices of course. To keep the collective together you have to respect everyone in it and social cohesion in the group is benefited by everyone conforming to it. It's then easy to see why a young Aksel Sandemose in 1933 could feel the little town he grew up in was narrowminded and stifling to his individuality. It probably was - to him. But it's also quite possible that social cohesion also gave him benefits - but that he didn't value those as highly. So, generally speaking, this "Jantelagen" isn't a real law and it's not something most people in the Nordic countries feel is especially oppressive. If it had been, those conditions obviously wouldn't have existed. Instead, we've had a historically long tradition of complying with a collective as that has been in our long-term benefit. Most regular citizens have historically felt that the trade-off has been worth it to keep our chosen collective together in the face of external threats to our wellbeing. Some individuals (especially when young) have obviously hated the pressure to conform to a collective - but in the long run, our societies have done pretty well by choosing this model of collective cooperation. Today we are however among the richest countries in the world and our strong welfare states guarantee our individual rights and freedoms. No one is any longer forced to conform to a collective for their own survival - but many of us still see the value in collective cooperation. Those that don't sometimes use "Jantelagen" as a pejorative to disparage the cooperative principles our societies where built by - and in the process forget or ignore that they only have the individual freedoms and quality of life they have today, because generations before them chose to work together.
I don't really know what older generations feel about jantelagen but young adults, teens & pre teens think it's absolute bullshit & we often discuss it in school, especially in high school. The main purpose of jantelagen was that everyone was supposed to be equal so that no one would feel left out/inferior. But, yeah, it's all bs & if you hear it as a kid you're basically being told that you're nothing & will never amount to anything, so younger generations hate it.
For me jante have been the opposite of how you see it. "You are not speciall"-mindset make me more hungry for success. A way of not making my achivements go to my head and strive for even more, a "this does not make me speciall, l can still do even better" point of view. You make it sound like the otherway around. Like "im not speciall i better quite" way.
The Jante law wasn't made to be followed but a satire based on observations of how some people behave. I think it goes both ways though: you shouldn't think you're better than others, but you shouldn't think anyone else is better than you either
Me as a Swed thinks the philosophy behind Jantelagen is destroying many peoples dreams. I do think it does make many people in Sweden over worked to somewhat feel success and because the lack of support from society to follow our dreams makes many people to suffer depression, having a dream is many times bad in Sweden, no new thinking is rarely allowed in Sweden because of the Jante mindset and because of that we do not learn how to pursue our dreams. I think most stuff in Jantelagen harms the Swedish population more than it does good. Yeah we're all equal and should have same rights but that shouldn't be on the cost of people's dreams. That's how I think and I do think we should leave that unwritten law in the sand and start to accept and embrace that some people knows more than us and we could always learn what those people knows so we can know more ourselves if we are interested in learning that. I do not think you're American lifestyle is wrong, I would rather have grown up in that kind of lifestyle myself. We can't put everyone on the same wavelength and hope that it won't collapse, we are all different, and different is most of the time good. Some are good in school and learn super quickly, some don't. It doesn't mean they are bad student's it's only mean that they have other strengths we don't see in a bench at school. We all have a strengths and weaknesses and they are never the same, we should embrace that and learn from each other instead of forcing everyone to be the same. And we sweds are very afraid to fail but it's not because it's bad it's because our society tells us that failing is really bad and shame on you if you do anything wrong and fail. You never rarely have people in Sweden who dare to do something with the trial and error mindset. We can't learn from our mistakes if we don't dare to fail. And much of that is due to a Jantelag mindset. That is what I think and believe, the Jantelagen should be destroyed and never seen again.
As many others has said, it's not that big anymore. It's more an idea to follow. Now it's more like you have to be perfect in every area. You have to be an amazing friend, you have to have a well paid job with a lot of flexible hours so you have a lot of free time. You have to be an amazing parent. You have to be an amazing sibling and song/daughter. You should have a lot of money saved, but you should also spend a lot of money. You should travel a lot. It's exhausting
Jantelagen isn't followed that much. It was written in 1933, so even before the second world war (ask Linn about it). We are fully allowed to stick out of the crowd, nothing is holding us back from working towards our own goal. Though I don't think we think as highly of a career compared to The American Dream for example, there's many other things that has high or even higher value than an important career. But I'd guess it's highly different depending on where in Sweden you live :) For the tax part I have to admit that I have a tendency to brag about it. It really feels like we don't let people get stuck in the dump with no way out. People make bad choices, some of those may continue to do so but they deserve to have a way out (which is not the case for people in the worst parts of the US).
The difference between low taxes in the US and high in Scandinavia is the fact that the US Govt currently borrows $ 52000 a second. What kind of taxes will be needed if you are ever going to pay it back? 99%?
I think the biggest impact the spirit of jantelagen has had on my life is that I rarely hear anyone brag about their accomplishments and for example when I apply for jobs I always find it hard to market myself/talk about my accomplishments. I would for example never put any skill on a CV that I don't know to a 110% that I'm able to do.
For me, Jante is really about the glue that binds the country together and has allowed us to survive in what actually is a quite harsh environment. You may note, if you travel around Sweden that the attitude you describe is more common or strong the farther north you get, and it's stronger in smaller communities. It's about helping each other, no one is to good to do their part. And i think it's a big part in why sweden has so many associations, unions, organisations and so on. Nothing is too small to organise around, to form an association around, elect representatives, and in those organisations you do your part, millionaire or janitor, or you will meet the somewhat nasty downside of it; And here's where it's a bit tricky. You might mess up, and you will most likely never be told so. Ours is a culture of avoiding confrontation, conflict and friction. What will happen is there will be less fika, less talk, less help, less eye contact, less calls. One that doesn't abide by the rules and act like they are above it all will find out what a lonely place Sweden can be, without being told why. The good part is that foreign people has a bit of leeway, it is understood by all that it takes time to fit in. But as long as you pick up the dishes at work when it's your week, dont play loud music after 23:00, queue properly, don't interfere with peoples personal spheres and never ever cross a picket line, you should be good. ;)
The law of Jante appeals to me. I was born and raised in the USA and I find that we are a greedy nation. People are simply out for themselves especially the rich and very rich. We do not care who gets an education, how much debt they must run up or who has health care. With more experience you may realize our failures. But nothing will change here because the wealthy will always rule
This shows an extreme lack of economic understanding. The wealthy have power because the people allows them to have power. They work their entire lives to provide the public with a service, and in exchange, they accumulate wealth. Taxes are entitlement. You feel entitled to what they have earned, just because they were innovative and supplied the public with a service that they needed. Please tell me, would you rather work 6 days a week, 9 hours every day and risk all your life savings on developing a product or service that you belive the public needs, or would you rather work a 6 hour job and have a set salary at the end of each month? Because one will get you rich and one wont. If you choose the safe option, you are in no way entitled to the money of the people that took the risks.
Katt1N but in the us that goes to the extreme. You can work 10 hours a day 6 Days a week and still get a salary at the end of the month just enough to survive. And then never get the education or the resources to try to start your own company since your parents didnt have enough money to get those opportunities for you.
Interesting. The law of jante is of course not a law, but the statements was more an expression of critique against the culture of jante, but I think that you are right about that we are more influenced by it than we think. And that may be the reason why many of us struggle with the growing selfishness. We were brought up to feel solidarity with others and I do believe that a society based on solidarity is more fair, just and equal. And that is important. However, it is not about restricting individual goals. When it is, it's usually about the culture within a family when parents for example disagree with your choices. But that happens everywhere as well... 🤔
I love this channel, I've been watching for a while, and I love these "difference between Sweden and The us" because I live in Sweden but my Best online friend lives in the us.
Make sure to keep your sleeping schedule going, having good friends in America through the internet is definitely beneficial (especially if you want to be an experienced dual language user) but you gotta make sure you keep your daily routine in check so it doesn't become long nights with short sleep. It will slowly tear at you with time. Other than that, awesome! (y)
I can definitely agree how Jante Law has significantly impacted Nordic culture in general. I met many people in Sweden and Norway who will say how it doesn’t impact them anymore, and can be more of a joke nowadays. I think people here just do not see the significance it can still have within their society. It was not even 100 years since those ideals were introduced and widespread through their society. As American citizens, we were raised in an environment where everyone proclaimed the opposite of what Jante Law stood for. We are encouraged to be the best individual we can be, to stand out and achieve great things. Here, I feel like having that personal drive and dedication can almost be shameful. People may ask “how can want you want to do with your life benefit society and others around you?” In America we may have been asked, “How can what you want to do with your like benefit you own well being?” I can see a lot of this within choices of career here. Where I lived in California, there are many people who start their own businesses. Both of my parents, my brother and his wife all make their own income and are completely self-sufficient that way. This is not really seen as an abnormal way of life. Here in Sweden, it seems like you are more encouraged to work under a larger company. It also must be a lot more difficult to start your own business, because of the high taxes. One thing I can really appreciate about what it has brought to their culture, is the humble spirit everyone has. People are respectful of others and very considerate. They welcome others and are open to new cultures ❤️ One random question for Swedes who may be reading this comment: Do you have a national day (like 4th of July in the US or syttende mai in Norway), and if so, do you celebrate it? Why/why not?
I, as a swede, find Jante both good and awful, it can absolutely be destructive but it can also be humbling. Personally I take the humbling part and skip the rest.
The law of Jante is from a Danish book about how life is like living in a small town in the middle of nowhere, in this case a fictional Danish town called Jante. As such I think you'd find a similar experience to this even in America if you are living in some rural town somewhere. At lot of Sweden consists of small rural communities, so that may be one reason this is prevalentl here to a greater extent than elsewhere. In the bigger cities I don't see much of the law of Jante in my opinion.
Love your videos. I'm going to Sweden in September. For some reason, I've always believed my true love is somewhere in Sweden, which is why I must go there. To find true love. I have lived in California and New York most of my life, so as an American, your words really speak to me and help me understand the Swedish culture more, not to mention you're also helping me prepare myself just in time for my trip and search for love. Thank you, Stefan! Tack så mycket!
I was borne and raised with the Swedish culture. I now have difficulties getting accepted in the Danish culture. The difference between European cultures is important to some.
You interpretation of jantelagen might have been more accurate 50 years ago or so. Today, not so much. The only part I or anyone else I know "live by" this "law" is that I don't presume to know more or be better than anyone else. I give everyone a chance to show who they are and what they bring. I believe I can learn a lot from other people and only judge someone to be a jackass AFTER they have proven to be a jackass. What jantelagen used to mean was "we don't make much fuss over the fact that we might be good at something. Instead, we were like "yea, it was ok, I'm sure other people are good at it too". In modern-day Sweden it more closely resembles what I mentioned above where people are open to the fact that they can learn from others instead of thinking they are the best in the world, they see their obligations and not just their rights etc. I and everyone I know spend their lives trying to "improve and become better" and "following their dreams and ambitions". Sure there are some people who for one reason or another see life as beeing "handed to them" and "out of their control" but that is true for all around the globe. Ofc we do have some people in Sweden who believe that simply by being born they are the greatest thing to ever walk the planet. We as a "collective" just don't take that at face value but instead say to ourselves "he should probably deflate that ego of his a bit". Now IF a person actually wins the gold medal in a sport, has vast knowledge about an area of expertise we VERY MUCH look up to them and listen to them and their experiences. So jantelagen might makes us not wet our pants at some athletics boy who is about to take his first ever football lesson (soccer for some of you) because he claims he will become the best player in the world we can very much look up to someone who actually IS the best player in the world. This is probably why we as a collective might not automatically go super crazy just because someone is a child of someone who happens to be rich. We don't see that as something that makes them deserve special treatment. Whereas in the US we at times see people get supercelebrity status and sit a peg above other simply because they got drunk on reality TV. Now, these reality TV people exist in Sweden too and some people believing they are god exists too, but for most of us they are simply amusement on TV and seen as any other person (or perhaps even looked "down" on due to their behavior on TV). Many people in Sweden DO stand out and are very vocal. Some out of knowledge and experience and some due to a big ego. We as a society tend to prefer the former. We just don't automatically presume that all extrovert people are somehow superior. Many people start their own businesses in Sweden too (even large brands I guess Americans have heard about like Volvo, Spotify, Mojang, DICE and on and on), many people follow their desires and dreams.
The law of Jante was written by a Danish guy who hated Scandinavian culture. That is something I like to point out when talking about them because all in all I think they are positive but they are knowingly written to seem negative :)
Jante is a fictional town in Denmark which features in a 1930s novel by the Danish author Sandemose. The town was purportedly modelled after the town in which he himself grew up. The mentality that the Janteloven (law of Jante) reflects is that of people living in a small town where nothing really happens and predictability is the preferred state of affairs. Thus everyone must know their place or otherwise be shamed for not complying to the norms. As an aspiring artist Sandemose of course found it suffocating. Note that for Sandemose this was a mentality that he felt was characteristic exclusively of small towns, and not rural areas or big cities, like Aarhus or Copenhagen. The concept of the Jantelaw has since broadened and changed depending on various social circumstances and political ideologies.
Nordic people do have somewhat mixed feelings about Janteloven. However it's not unique to the nordic region. You'll find a lot of places in the midwest where those laws actually do apply to some degree from what I've heard. Anyway, they're formulated in a way to express the negative aspects of the basic idea. The positive ones are expressed in concepts like "Lagom".
I think the Jantelag stands for a philosophy that’s based on the thought that as long as people are experiencing oppression, poverty or other kinds of factors of illness of some sort, it doesn’t matter how successful I am, or how much money I have in the bank. No one is free until everyone is free! /born and raised Swede
The Jante law (Janteloven, Norway) is a set of rules originated in Denmark, but is intergrated in the whole of Scandinavia. This is a major reason to the countries stability, and equality. It makes people humble, and we threat people very equally regardless of status. It doesn't mean you shouldn't stand out at all, its the fact that we are all equally worth, does this cause that people are less concerned with being unique in style, act etc? sure. it might sound like a harsh set of rules, but it's great to destruct judgementality and inequality. If you think you are better than anyone in Scandinavia due to success, you will be laughed at, and your values would be considered pathetic.
I think Jantelagen is more about not bragging than it is about not wanting success or to better one self. A very Swedish thing is that people tend not to dare taking the last bit of food or the last slice of cake when sharing with several people in case someone else wants it. We also never talk to strangers on a bus, why would they want to talk to you? Those things can definitely be traced to Jantelagen.
The way i see it is that it is comparable with ”Treat others like you would like to be treatened yourself” Nowadays it is encouraged to forfill yourself, but to stay humble. Although we may be the most secular country the warning of the sin of Pride still lies in the back of our heads. If you want to learn about the ultimate Swedish rags to riches story of swedes that apply to ”Jante” you should look up the founder of IKEA. Nowadays however the mainstream stars are making a point of behaving oposite to the law of Jante.
Jantelagen originated in Norway. It was in a novel by Aksel Sandemose, a norwegian writer who grew up in Denmark. The novel was called "A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks". And I think that the number of businesses started in Sweden is on par with the US if you look at per capita. The number of businesses that fail within the first two years is also the same in both countries. So I don't think Jante plays a big part in that aspect of Swedish life and society? www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/09/sweden-startups/541413/
It's soon graduation time and you'll notice in your school that the students probably don't tell others what their grades are and there are usually not any special achievement awards or so either. In the states, it seems like students can get stipends, awards etc starting at a young age. Here it is not encouraged, and also we don't get grades until 6th grade (I got mine the first time in 8th grade before they changed the system of grading). It goes along with the law of Jante that one should not think you are better than someone else or stand out. We are all the same, and everyone should have the same opportunities for education is the Swedish belief. Applying to Uni is only based on GPA or the test score from högskoleprovet. Nothing else is weighed in. I think in the states volunteering, sports, leadership and so on makes you a better applicant to Uni,. It's unheard of here. No one is a better applicant than someone else.
The Jante law (Jantelagen) was written down by Aksel Sandemose in his novel "A refugee crosses his tracks". He was danish/norwegian and described his upp growing in a small town (Lemvig) in northern Denmark. He described the small town mentality, he felt as a prison. People with narrow mentality keeping others back. Those then rules limits people in small town societies. Oh you want to go to the big town and study at the university? Who the hell do you think you are? Oh, so farming isn't good enough for you? Don't you think you are better than us! So it's a critique of peoples jealousy and the way the collective build boundaries for other people. Nobody says they live by the Jante law. Everybody say they don't, but more often than people think they act upon the law. It is hard to go against the consensus in Sweden, more than in Denmark. People are afraid of conflicts and to be the odd person by the side. And the price to pay for be the one speaking out against consensus can be high. It is sometimes like swedes don't grow past adolescence. It's the junior high school yard mentality upp through life. Who is in group, who is not. And that is dangerous because extreme people trive on that, so the consensus and what is "the right thing" easy goes to extremes in Sweden. We are not "landet lagom" as they think. Just look at the political views on immigration. It's either "everybody is welcome, we can take all refugees to Sweden" or "Close that border, send them home". And the pendulum can go turn very fast. (Im danish live in Sweden since over 40 years)
I am a swede and i didnt even know of the law. I can see your point of being discrete in sweden and that is really important fact that you can see for example when you are traveling or in the street.
I think it´s great how humble you are. In that aspect, you make for a great person, wherever you are. I think that many parts of this "jäntelagen" is obsolete.
Så först och främst: Kollat lite på din kanal och bra jobbat :D Weird dock att se Norrköping på youtube,,,I alla fall inte på en sådan här stor kanal. Det ända som störde mig lite var att du får det låta som Svenskar inte försöker bli bättre och bättre, för det tror jag alla gör. Sedan kanske vi är lite ödmjukare om vad vi är bättre i.
6 років тому
This is so so true, you are very well spoken! I can see how you are a teacher! I feel like I want to stand out but many swedes would be like " psss no they are looking at us, be quiet! " Haha. I'm in America now actually, in California, I love it!
Jantelagen as you read it out is originally a Danish author's extremely cynical interpretation of certain aspects of Scandinavian culture, it is essentially satire. We certainly have Jantelagen in our culture but it is no where near as extreme as the points you mentioned. Often when Jantelagen is brought up here in Sweden it is so with negative connotations (at least in my experience), describing a jealous passive-aggressive attitude to people who have accomplished something in their life. It is less common in certain geographical places and social classes. I live in a university city in Sweden and Jantelagen is far less pronounced here than in other places, all though I have still certainly experienced it many times.
Living near the capital in California, it is hard here unless you have a great job with a wealthy company. The homeless population is growing. I went to college, but didn't finish because I got pregnant and needed to raise my children. Since childcare is too expensive and my husband all of a sudden needed to work 2 jobs instead of going to college, all to support us. The individual mindset is hard, because there isn't enough family support, even if they are really nice, to help watch the kids so I can work or go to school. Its been a hard road. I have learned a lot and it hasn't all been bad. Most of the time we didn't have health benefits either because we couldn't afford them. We had to just ignore the hospital bills and try to be as healthy as we can. Learning about natural home remedies and healthy living has been the positive. Now I work at a good job part time and get benefits, but my husband working full time and my wage is still barely enough to live. Rent is really expensive and goes up every year. life is paycheck to paycheck. Everything is paid by your own way here. Its hard. Now my kids are old enough so I can go back to college, finally. Thankfully, without needing a babysitter.
Im 17 and live close to Linköping and to be honest i did not even know about this law and nobody have ever told me to live by it but at the same time it’s quite true if you think about it. I guess i have lived with this ”law” even tho i had no clue it existed it just followed me natrualy.
I think it's a bit different to just start following the jante law like that, and to just been growing up with the concept, even without knowing about jante laws. When I started to think about it, the jante law don't restrain me really, "any" goal is obtainable, it's more a matter of what the process should be. And in a way like you, It just made me realize, that goals shouldn't be actualised, if it means me not respecting others or me trample over others. And to always keep in mind the rest of the people. Murica feels more like "make it or break it". Like it's a race to the top
Honestly Alaska and the rural Midwest are places in the USA that support individuality the most because the west coast and the north influenced by technocratic yankee politics and the Southerners have the Bible Belt (Christianity is actually collectivistic) which can harshly suppress individuality depending on where you are
Thank you, herr Thyron, for your excellent and enlightening descriptions of your experiences in a culture different from the one you were raised in (although the difference is very probably not very great; in most places in the world they would be much greater). I only miss one observation in this video, one that must have been made by many others than me, namely that the originator of "the Law of Jante", the writer Aksel Sandemose, formulated the Law as a satire of perceived or alleged attitudes. You may have taken them overly seriously. The fact that they were formulated in Scandinavia as a parody of public law does not necessarily indicate that they apply with greater stringency there than elsewhere. Sandemose merely maintained that they existed and used them in the manner of a creative writer.
I live in Sweden and I have experienced jantelagen and I hate it. I have experienced it in the stabe. When I had accomplished something when competing no one congratueleted me, even if i did it with the stable's horse, so not my own horse and my trainers where just condencending and just tired to "push me down". That made me feel a little sad because they owned the horse and they where my trainers so they should compliment me when I do something good. I still want people to see me and give me credit for the things I accomplish and that's why I hate jantelagen.
Jantelagen is a term invented by the Danish-Norwegian writer Aksel Sandemose and is ment as a critic of a small town mentality. In sweden most of the people love persons that is extraordinary and even brag about them selves like Zlatan the Swedish soccer-player. At least when everything is going fine and he is scoring.
Aksel Sandemose, the author who came up with the Jantelagen in the book "En flykting korsar sitt spår" is danish, so the law should be considered to be just danish. I would say it´s much easyer to change your societal position, or change class, in Sweden compared to the same in USA.
I dont think Jantelagen is a very important part of Swedish society anymore. But I think it's based on treating everyone equally and creating a good collective rather than taking away one's individuality.
One more thing that is typically Swedish jante. In Sweden many people does not want to say how much the ear for a living. Its kind of rude to ask another person that, it can be okay with family or really close friends. But not always, and to ask people you work with or friends friend, that a big no no here.
Not really it's from a book from 1933 "En flykting korsar sitt spår" by the Dane-Norweigan author Aksel Sandemose. Mostly used by people when they have to take consideration to others in any way inconvient to them, they sulk and blame it on jante-lagen. Many of us have never even read that book
Here in Minnesota we have an American form of jantelagen. It sort of allows for a celebration of individuality while still emphasising on humility and to not think you are special. Its prob why the state is so progressive.
No, plenty of people in Minnesota have no Scandinavian ancestry and are assholes because they think they are better than everyone else. It only feels better than other states because of the few people with Scandinavian ancestry that haven't fallen for the American attitude of self-righteousness.
Jantelagen was something people lived by a LONG time ago. I never thought people actually thought we lived like that. I honestly think there is pretty much no one that lives by the JanteLag bec why?
I suspect the awareness and understandinig of "Jantelagen", reflects the socio- economic status of the individual. Most immigrants have probably never heard of it. Would be interesting to know what percentage of younger ppl. in Sweden, with "native" parents, have heard of it (it's a bit of an outdated cultural reference).
This is very similar to Confucianism in East Asia. Confucianism forces you to humble yourself and respect others. Confucianism dominates East Asia very strongly. It's interesting to see what these different regions have in common.
i live in sweden and i've not been raised by the law od jante, bearly heard it in fact , like onespiker said in another comment , i also think it was much stronger a long time ago
Standing out is fine, as long as you don't think it makes those who don't stand out worth less than you. Being successful as an individual is fine as long as it isn't to the detriment of the collective.
Nails077 and the individualist would say “fuck the collective”
Those ten rules are really not the laws of Jante. Nowadays it is about not bragging and think you are better than anyone else, simply not pushing anyone else down. Which in my opinion is a good thing.
And I don't know what you mean about Jante holding people back. Ingvar Kamprad is a prime example of the laws of Jante in work. He was a great entrepreneur and filthy rich, though he drove his old Volvo, gave ALL staff bonuses and made his kids work for the money. That is why IKEA and Ingvar is so popular here.
I think that is the biggest misunderstanding of the laws of Jante - that you cannot be successful as an individual. You can and you should. But as you said, just because you've got a master degree doesn't mean you are more important than the Swedish teacher who just graduated. That doesn't mean, for example, you shouldn't earn more. Just don't brag about it.
And taxes are not about Jante, but socialism.
Would you say this to Mohammed Ali, or would there be an "exception" for him tooting his own horn and if so, why?
+1 , and here in Sweden we do not need to show our new car, jacuzzi,new apartment to get friends and status. I know many people in Sweden who makes 30 000 sek after taxes and they barely have a car or a new computer. That is the mentality that differs Sweden and U.S
So people are allowed to be a little more "out there" now and dress differently as long as they aren't mean to others?
@@JakobTennisMB As a person who has studied Arts, I can say that there is a problem with conformity for middle to higher class society. The right dress just about the same as everybody else that shares their way of life, while the left dress however they want. It's all about being humble, really.
@@SuperElite27000000 It would also apply to him. But the fact that he had to overcome some barriers in getting there would also be criticized. It’s not good to toot your own horn, but society shouldn’t create conditions in which Mohammed Ali should be special. You know? I think it’s okay to be against both.
I would say that everyone in Sweden have heard about Jantelagen (The Law of Jante) but we don't really "live by it". Especially young people aren't afraid to stand out. I wouldn't say that we don't celebrate individuality, because we do, but we focus more about the society as a whole compared to the US. I've lived in both Sweden (grew up here) and in the US (while I was studying) and I found that I truly appreciate how swedes are less likely to brag. But as you said- it depends on how you're raised. I grew up in a family where bragging was seen as a really bad thing, but not bragging didn't exclude the possibility to be celebrated as an individual. I like the honesty and the way that americans are more "straight forward" and that swedes can learn from that. But I also believe that americans think to much of themeselves and can come across as arrogant sometimes.
Aniluap99se har aldrig hört om den
Privat Jaa vissa har förmodligen inte hört om det, men de absolut flesta vet vad det innebär. Tycker själv detta är ett intressant ämne och har därför diskuterat det mycket och har aldrig träffat någon som inte har vetat vad det innebär.
I like honesty, but I feel Americans are less honest on average compared to Swedes. Lip service for the sake of superficial politeness and for making themselves seeming like a great person, while as I feel Swedes just do the least politeness possible and avoid "politeness lying" unless it's really important. This would of course vary between regions in the US, but superficial politeness and "fakeness" seems very common in for instance their south/bible belt. The in-your-face socially one-upping others as a way to assert social dominance (which isn't a just US or south US thing) seems common there, and that's really disturbing to me. I've noticed it being in general common in more religious rural areas all over the world. More of a socially dog eat dog culture in such locations I presume. I wouldn't be surprised if we had more of it in tinier more religious villages too, but thankfully we're not that religious in Sweden. (No, I don't think religion is inherently bad, but power corrupts and religious power is one of the most common kinds people can use against each other and as leverage for their family's social status where life is harsher).
@@vervemonke5971 Your reply was amazing. Such an interesting topic how power moulds societies, isn't it? Let's take Marvel for example: it kinda results ironic to me that Captain America is the one that got the "America" in his name as a cultural icon for people, instead of Iron Man who suits better the american role model.
arrogant sometimes? They brag about their salaries, their status, their college degree.. and most don't even have a passport to step outside their shady US-bubble. Americans? No thanks.
Jantelagen is there to destroy hubris, not to keep people down. The mentality of "we are one" and "everything belongs to us as a collective" is what's made us one of the very top countries in the world. It's a mentality that makes us proud of our socialized systems because we know that we, the people, own it together by paying for it with taxes. We work hard for what we deserve.
Summed up it's pretty much just "you are *not* better than anyone else just because you're rich and powerful."
Also, it's a fictional law but it embodies the mentality and the foundation of the Scandinavian peoples and our societies.
The irony is that IRL most Swedes express themselves opposite to what the Jantelagen teaches, and your comment is a great example of that where you are of the impression that Sweden is "one of the top countries in the world".
P t.
Well The jante law doesn’t erase facts. It’s not the Swedes them self that calls them that. It’s different world wide spread surveys that rank Sweden as one of the top countries.
As a Dane, where I really can see the jante law is in our work places,
There’s is this non formal relationship, often all the way from the top to the bottom.
Oh by the way, thought this was strictly a danish thing??!?🤔
"you are not better than anyone else just because you're rich and powerful." How very unlike the attitude in America.
sweden is the rape capital of eroupe.(google it).1 of the top countries in the world??????!!!! yeah sure we are not in the 80s or 90s anymore..time 2 wake up
Fun fact: Jantelagen was written as a satire that grew a following. We are not taught to live like that but culturaly we do adhere to it to some extent
Jantelagen has become more of a running joke nowadays. Comedy shows such as Solsidan uses Jantelagen as a comedic narrative.
But yeah the core thoughts behind Jantelagen is still deeply rooted in the swedish culture. As not to bother others, expressing superiority over others and more.
I think that has been the case because Sweden has not had any minorities of significant size. But the perception of that seems to be changing.
@@mojojim6458 Sweden has sooo many Muslims now.
@@JakobTennisMB I hear that's happened all over Europe.
Sweden is a fantastic society. fuck American culture. all they think about is money and sex.
It’s the kid of collectivism seen in nations that are or not long ago were monarchies. Subjects and serfs only have as many rights as they are allowed. Hell, Russian serfs were property that “was tied to the land they worked” until the 20th century. As an American, the common question you ask a new acquaintance is “What do you do for a living?” I’ve noticed that’s not common in Europe. Especially in the UK, it seems social stratification seems to keep people “in their place”.
Another odd thing is while my experience in the USA is to continually strive upward, whether socially or in business, in the UK people are less likely to feel the same way. And if one does stick their neck out and fail, the expectation is to “fall back in your place” rather than try again
The law of Jante is not that strong in Sweden ( so far as I know). It was alot stronger before 1960-70, but it has been detoriorating since. About USA, I dont think their society is that much more open about things ( with meeting strangers yes but if it is something like in the school or workplace I do think it is similar to Sweden).
Du har helt rätt
onespiker sant (True)
Jantelagen är starkare än någonsin. Tro inget annat. Det märks av överallt, vart man än går.
du kanske bor i stockholm där alla tror de är nåt.
You are wrong
I think the most important difference is not necessarily the "law of Jante", as it is something that is loosing prevalence in Scandinavian culture. However, the biggest difference is the individualistic and elitist culture that is prevalent in the States (and UK) vs the egalitarian culture of the scandinavian countries. The egalitariansim is not from "jante" but from a cultural necessity in terms of survival in the medieval times and before, the concept of community is much stronger if you are dependent on each other for survival, to harvest and to keep your society from crumbling. This has evolved through history and although I cannot speak for Sweden, I know that in Norway, we have had a very strong egalitarian thread through politics and policy up until the 1980's and from then on it has grown weaker, and in the 2000's the prevalence of "them and us" culture has increased.
I don't think "jante" stops anyone from pursuing success in their proffessional lives, but I do think it keeps their feet more firmly placed on the ground, more aware of those around them, more willing to contribute back to the society that has helped foster their ability to succeed through free eduation, free health care, and a safety net that would allow them to still have a good life, should their parents have lost their job as they grew up (for example). The lack of safety net contributes to the focus on the I in the US, and it also pushes people to take more risks and fall further should they not succeed. It contributes to the greater difference between the richest and the poorest, it contributes to lack of respect for other people's humanity and their problems.
That's very deep and insightful. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I never thought of the lack of the safety net contributing to more of the focus on the individual but the way you describe it makes since!
Yes I totally agree! Furthermore Jantelagen is one of the things that contributes to Sweden/Scandinavia being some of the most equal nations in the world. If you don’t have the money, the mind or the body to make it in US you are seen as lesser person. Since the US are very focused on the individual it is not as forgiving as countrys that focuses on the society as a whole. Especially since the individual in the US usually means a middle or upper class white male. Our social security nets are not perfect but much bigger and wider than US. The focus on individuality does not help the working or middle class pregnant woman since if she does not have a partner that makes enough money she can not stay home from work with the baby, and in Sweden and actually in all other western countries you have the right to paid parental leave. In Sweden that is 480 days for each child.
If course it can in especially in smaller towns/cities be something that can hold you back but I’d say that on the whole jantelagen has contributed to Sweden being a pretty good country to live in. For all.
Althou its not entirely free healthcare, its taxbased. And most ppl of course take student loans to study (for food and rent etc) , at least when studying full time. :).
As a swede I can say that the only thing I ever associated with "Jantelagen" is the quote "laget före jaget" somewhat translated into "the team before me." I dont think a very large amount of the people living in Sweden actually know these "laws" you presented in the video. However they are (I guess) to some extent built into our society. In my personal opinion I believe that these common values that are being embraced in Sweden (will not speak for Norway/Denmark/Finland etc..) is contributing alot to people finding "individual sucess" what that now may be. Having a system in place that is providing people with some of the very basic needs such as healthcare, education etc. for free, is allowing people to take a leap of faith and not having to worry about ending up on the street should it fail.
It does a little bit in Sweden. For example, it is looked down on for 'accomplishing too much' or having too much work experience or education. At least in Småland. Most here like to do only one thing at only one job for their entire lives.
And everything is very very slow.
"Americans have a lot of money that they can keep at the end of the day" - Not true. Yes, Americans may pay less taxes but they are paying more out of pocket. Student loans, child care, high education, health insurance...where do you think that money is coming from? From American's out of pocket whereas in Sweden, all that is paid by the taxes they pay so AT THE END OF THE DAY Americans end up spending more than Swedes: taxes + out of pocket expenses.
Dee Dee also, the 'American Dream' with changes of class and income rate is more probable in Sweden.
Yup. 65 percent of all Americans have less than 500 dollars in their savings but keep the illusion alive that Americans have money because they pay less taxes. They live paycheck to paycheck.
It's really interesting because I think the swedish society is better for the average population. However, for someone absolutely crushing it, there is a slightly higher upside in America at least from what I can tell so far.
Stefan Thyron
Exactly, it is easier to make a good living in Sweden. Whereas in the USA it s easier to make it big.
And on top of that, most people living in Sweden get money paid back from taxes every year around this time of the year :D
See, for me, Janteloven is not so much about standing out or being an individual (I've been standing out all my adult life in a Scandinavian society without it ever being a problem, lol), but rather about how you shouldn't boast or think yourself superior to others. The wording of Janteloven is pretty extreme, and not all of it is taken to heart as much as you imply. Culturally we definitely are more about the collective than the individual, but those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. You're free and welcome to set out to achieve whatever you set your mind to do, but you will still be part of the same society, and therefore you will not suddenly be worth more than someone else. Society definitely needs teachers, doctors, scientists and the like, but at the same time it also needs cleaners, shop clerks and garbage collectors.
Humble, humble, humble. Is definitely the keyword, along with respect.
You can have a high paying job or a low paying job. What is important is that even when you're successful you can still look up to those who perhaps aren't as such, as they are human as well, you're not superior because of it. And then likewise when you're not as successful as others, you don't become envious and spiteful.
Something that comes to mind is three years ago just as the summer had started, we were having an after-work BBQ outside our workshop. The CEO was working the grill, getting hamburgers, ribs and steaks done while everyone else at the company (about 20+) were chilling with some beers and other spirits, striking conversations and having fun with each other and the boss while having quite a bit to drink.
Having told this story quite a few times to people from outside of Sweden, it's almost always the same reaction, wide eyes and gasps, chock. It always comes off as a surprise to many because it seems so foreign that someone in power, the man that orders everyone around and makes the most cash would do such a thing for others. He himself paid for the food and the two fridges full of beer, and then went ahead and made sure people were having a good time, just because he could do so.
so well explained.
I feel the biggest difference is the sense of entitlement.. I'm sorry, I'm not saying this to offend anyone from the US or the states as a country. But most Americans have a huge sense of entitlement, like I'm bigger better stronger than everyone and I should have it the best. It's just the mentality of the country as a whole. Take sports for example, NHL, NFL, NBA, MLB, most leagues call their winners world champions, like uh? Okay? But you're not. You're national champions/league champions. Imagine a European league just randomly calling their winners world champions..? We do have world championships for a reason, and to be fair, the US haven't won some of the bigger ones for a hot minute.. And that goes for everything, why WOULD someone get to cut in line? Because they're better than anyone else? At what? Life? Who determines who's more important and should be treated better? That's a huge can of worms that just doesn't get opened when you try to treat people as equal, rather than having an individualistic society and trying to up each other. It also teaches you patience, to let everyone have their turn and not just think me me me. Clearly there are flaws in every society, but I feel like "the laws of jante" gets blown out of proportion and taken the wrong way a lot of times when it's talked about. Most Swedes use it as a joke. While yes, we don't want to try and feel superior to others, it's not like you can't still strive to be the best. You just don't have to shove it down other peoples throats and make them feel inferior. Sorry for the rant, this is a big topic with so many layers and has recently been discussed within the cheerleading community so I've been thinking and talking about it a lot the last few days. Also sorry for any spelling and/or grammatical errors, clearly I'm Swedish so English isn't my native language and it's 4am lol.
coorrupted ... But look how stupid you are... World Champion NASCAR racer is NASCAR world Champion.. Only the USA has NASCAR.. Name one Swedish NASCAR Champion. .. Youre stupid.
That's exactly my point though..
coorrupted ..we got stuff that the whole world doesnt have.. WORLD CHAMPION stuff that makes the rest of the world jealous as hell. WORLD CHAMPION MUD TRUCK GIRL COMPETION the entire Muslim world is automatically disqualified. think about that shit ua-cam.com/video/LBP6kLPHTuI/v-deo.html
Gloomshadow100 This is a perfect example of the American biased way to see things, not only you want to be better than anyone else, you actually think that you already are, it doesn't matter how much proof you're giving that you're not, you will keep believing and claiming it.
The world is not jealous as hell, I'm part of the world and didn't even know what you mentioned existed. And like me many other people
Shueps x ..thats because you are backwards
So interesting to hear your take on it as "an outsider"! I think however that a big thing that gets missed when talking about the Law of Jante is along the lines of what you said when you spoke about the positive side of it. To not let success get to your head and treat people as if they're less than you. When taken literally the Law seems (and is) really bad, but there is another side to it. Yes, you should seek success, but just because you succeed doesn't mean you're better than anyone else. Just because you've accomplished great things doesn't make you worth more than anyone else. If we think about it not in terms of thinking we are not good enough/better than anyone else but to change the perspective and think about how other people are worth just as much as us and how other people are just as awesome and that you are too. Just don't boast about it, because that's what Jante wants to change. Your not better than anyone else. Even if someone is broke and living on the streets they are just as valuable as you are, but focusing on outward appearence it could be seen as we are better. That is the mindset that needs to change.
This was a really long post, but it's a really interesting topic in my opinion. What do you other swedes think about it? And you Stefan?
Hi Johanna. I agree, this is an interesting topic and I also think that the law of Jante, at least today, works the way you describe. Equality is a word that describes that perspective really well.
Today I think you find more Swedes standing out and boasting about achievements than you did 30 or 40 years ago but they are still a small minority.
One thing that sometimes contradict this Jante-lag is the way we Swede look at our country... I often find comments from Swedes about their pride being from here, a lot of us feel we are the best country in the world... And these comments are not seldom found when some Swede(s) has done something good... may it be sports, music or technology.... And maybe we do live in the best country in the world... in some aspects at least ;)
Jante lagen is actually more like "dont walk around and think you're better/more special than everyone else." It's not anything like the way he described it in the video. ^^
Jesper
True... But I like to think of the above view upon it as a modern and slightly modified version of it (farfetched maybe but, anyway)
Johanna you make some great points. I think it's an interesting topic because the laws themselves come off as sort of harsh, but the underlying principle that we are all equal is pretty solid.
Yes exactly, I completely agree with you!
I'm a 17 year old girl and live in Skåne (southern part of Sweden) and "Jantelagen" is not really something that I was raised with and not something that is seen as a really good thing by anyone I know, sure you are to respect every human and not devalue others but you should also aim for personal successes and at the same time be grateful for what you have so that you are happy no matter how much success you end up having. We do celebrate personal success and aim to be the best versions of ourselves (at least where I come from). It is true that it is more accepted to have a more neutral and clean look but at the same time a lot of us are very supportive of embracing our individuality in every way and finding your true passion. Of course I can only speak from my own perspective and experience so I might not be as objective but I thought it valuable to share anyway so people know that "Jantelagen" not is a philosophy that all Swedes full-heartedly are raised by and not is valued as something good by everyone, rather something we aim to change because it devalues the individual in a society where we are striving for equality and individual as well as communal happiness.
That's a very interesting perspective and beautifully said, thanks for sharing! I think there's a balance between valuing the individual and valuing the community and in a perfect world, I think everyone would work together but not be looked down on for pursuing individual accomplishments as well.
Linnéa Edenkrantz Jantelagen is not that you shouldn't strive for personal success. People can do whatever they want with their lives. It's that you shouldn't think you are better than anyone else just because you, for example, are more successful.
Emil Söderback Spot on, I was gonna write the exact same thing. Basically you should always strive to be better, but never brag about it or let it get to your head. And definitely never expect or demand special treatment because of your social status, in fact, don't even mention it.
Same I'm also a skåning
Part of Jante is very much to be taken seriously. But some parts you listed is just to the extreme and to break it down simple.
You can absolutely think you are extra skilled at something but you can never brag about it and pretend you're better than someone else regarding of their situation in life.
You are overexaggerating quite about this law buddy.. Jante lagen is actually more like "dont walk around and think you're better/more special than everyone else." That's pretty much it. I'm a swede and I've always been encouraged to follow my dreams and such. It's not as harsh as you describe it mate. :)
I think you are right Jesper, but I did think the laws sounded pretty harsh when reading them for the first time!
Stefan Thyron Haha I totally get that 😉 either way. The video was entertaining and interesting. Fun with other perspectives. :)
Its exactly how it is . People always show of their materials here and think they are better than everyone else .
I don't necessarily think Jantelagen is taken that literal in Sweden. As opposed to for example the Amendments in the US, where the sentences are actual laws, Jantelagen is more of a general idea of humbleness that derived from the original Jantelag. It doesn't hinder personal success, and only hinders individuality to a small degree, depending on how you interpret it. The way most Swedes (in my experience) think of Jantelagen is just to always be humble and to never think yourself a better human being than someone else. Of course you can still have personal success and be better than other people at certain things. How Jantelagen usually is followed is to not let that success get to your head (like you said) and to always treat people with respect. But it is definitely true that the general ideas of Jantelagen has had a big impact on Swedish society and culture, and especially on how people behave in public. It is probably also a factor as to why, as you have mentioned in previous videos, Swedes are typically more reserved and not as friendly towards strangers.
To summarize: The ideas of Jantelagen has had an influence on Swedish culture and behavior but it's not taken very literal by most people, and rather acts as a symbol for humbleness and respect towards others. At least that is how I have experienced it as a Swede myself.
Hi again,
I’ve managed to combine the best of both cultures in my career here in Sweden. I’ve been very “American” by being both extremely focused and also optimistic about my job and career goals. For example, when I was your age I once told a Swedish guidance counselor that wanted to work in business or management. She explained that it would be extremely difficult for me as an immigration but wished me luck. 4 years later I was on my first international business trip in London and calling the home office in Stockholm to confirm my appointment with IBM. 15 years later I employed that very same guidance councilor as a substitute at the technical school where I was principal. 😉 You set your own goals and limits here. The key to success is to become fluent in the language and understand plus accept the culture. I do like the way Swedes think and do business and honestly, not everyone is keen on the jantelagen because as we say here in Sweden, Lagom is best.
LAGOM!!!!
Per-Jöns Tomta Japp
Lagom == law of Jante. It brings down the fun in life to be honest. That´s why as swedes we are akin to appreciate cultures from other countries and want to come out of our shell. Being lagom is like being enclosed in a cowrie shell
wait, what? In America there are strict dress codes in schools but in Sweden (or at least in Stockholm) people dress however they like. there are even girls with see-through tops and NO BRAS and some dudes with short skirts. and that's just in a few schools I've been too.
Jantelagen today is more like "Please go be successful, but don't be obnoxious and in peoples face about it". It's not jealousy, but frowning upon bragging. It's like a scale where in one end you have politeness, and in the other you have rudeness. If you constantly let other people know how good you are, you won't have friends in Sweden. Or friends competing with you to top off your accomplishments. How relaxing..
I think the law is actually quite good in the sense that it promotes humility and equality. The only thing I don't think is right is to not believe that anyone cares about you. I think it's very important to believe that you are cared for and loved for your human value. Other than that I think it's a very good law to have to promote humility and equality.
That's true Jennifer, the one that said 'you're not to believe that anyone cares about you' is the one that really caught my eye and made me think the law was a bit extreme
I also think it's good for selfesteem to be proud of the positive things you've done in your life. There's nothing wrong with being proud of yourself :)
I'm visiting Sweden for the summer so I will have more to say to. Your channel inspired me to visit :)
how is it even humanity when the hosbital, the cops and the old people, the swedish peopel in general, the swedish Democrats voters gets humiliated and called every racist name in the book how is that equality?
Seeriously sweden is a left wing feminist and muslim paradise that only them gets to have a good life in everyone ells who speaks up the issue the goverment and the curropted media has created gets silence and kicked out from the jobs we have.
Sweden is a joke nothing more and nothing ells.
The law of Jante does not say that you should not succeed at what you are doing. It just says that you should not expect success to give you any benefits. It says that you should expect to be treated the same way as your disabled or unemployed neighbour (as in your example with the work permit).
It also means that trying to use your title or income as a way to get benefits will likely be met with some level of contempt. Becuase of our tax system giving every citizen a more equal footing (take the tuition free school system as an example) your wealth or family name or other "elitist" markers that are so prominent in the US holds a lot less weight here.
We don´t dislike successful people, we are just not very likely to idolize them or let them make us feel inferior, if that makes sense.
Cecilia - Half of the population of Sweden immigrated to America in the 1800's, due to poor living conditions in Sweden at the time. The US government had given railroad companies vast amounts of fertile farmland in the upper midwest to sell. They sent recruiters to Sweden and paid their ship fare to come to America and sold them farmland in the states of Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, Montana, Iowa, etc. The people were poor so the railroads financed the farms with low monthly payments. The people of Europe back then were peasants that were ruled over by Monarchs and rich Oligarchs that owned most of the land, so when they came to America where they had their own farms, it was like going to heaven. My great grandparents came to America back in the great immigration wave between 1880-1924, and came here broke. When they died, they had acquired ten thousand acres of land. They were hard workers and worked from daylight till dark, like most people did back then. I have that same ambition to make a lot of money, which I'm sure would be frowned upon in the Marxist socialist countries of Europe. No matter what the cultural norms are, women are attracted to a man with money that can provide for her. It's just the way God made women and for thousands of years the woman stayed at home and raised the children while the man went out and worked. It's still in the collective subconscious of women that's passed down through genetics. Women want safety and security. I might be breaking your law of Jante by bragging about my successful business and that I own 15 automobiles, but if it gets me a beautiful wife such as yourself, it's worth breaking that law. LOL I hope you like cats, because when we get married you will become a mother to my 2 cats. LOL I was just curious, are most Swedish women feminists? I hear this a lot.
Of course I am feminist, but feminism means literally equalism. Females should have the same opportunities and salaries as men, not any better. Most normal and good people are equalists! You talk like you still are living in the time where the great immigration took part. "A woman need a man that provides for her" Lol, yeah a golddigger woman maybe;-) Or a lazy one!
Linnie G - I think a man should make double what a woman makes, just kidding, all salaries should be the same if you do the same job. Be honest though, if you could marry a husband that has a lot of money, where you can stay at home with the children and be a housewife, would you not prefer this over working away from the home for 40 hours a week? Society has changed, but women's genetics are still the same. Most women are looking for a man that can provide for them, because women carry the babies and need someone to go hunting and bring home a deer to feed the family, or go out and make money to bring home to feed the family. God also made animals like this. My male cat goes and hunts, and instinctively brings the mouse home to my female cat and drops it in front of her. I feed my cats expensive cat food so they don't need to hunt to survive, but they still have this instinct to go hunting and bring the prey home to the female to nourish her while she nurses their kittens. If you and I were to get married, I would go out hunting and bring home mice for you to eat too, so you can be nourished and lactate to breast feed our baby, LOL.
*Hi, it´s me* I have had female cats that does the same as your male cat. Because you refer to "God" I think you are one of those conservatives and maybe you have only met women that see you as someone that can be "male, strong and provide for her and your kids", like they were thinking 300 years ago and still does in muslim countries. I guess that would be great IF you are a woman that wanna have kids and go to penecostal meetings/church/mosque. But I am a modern woman living in a somehow big city (Stockholm) and I like my job and interests and I don´t want any kids, but if I wanted I would never ever want a man to provide for me and some kids, what happen when I wanna divorce or he wanna divorce? In Sweden you don´t call a lawyer that are trying to get as much money for you as possible, the male just need to pay for the children, not a damn shit to the female that offered many years to stay at home (as it should be) as I say we have a more equal society and even men stay at home with their kids (modern men). I wish it was like that when I was younger cause my dad always worked and of course that´s why I have less good contact with him than with my mum (they are divorced and my mum didn´t get anything for the 5 years she stayed at home, but ok later she earned ass much or even more than my dad).
But you are at least a gentleman even if you are a little bit "after your time" (not rude ment), some men in Sweden wants all the equal things here (like they don´t need to provide for a wife or an ex wife) they want all the good things from it but hate "feminists" but they are already living in an equal society and get all the good things from that too. Not only women get good things out of equality, if your dream are to stay at home then this society are less good, but don´t think many women even think about that as a possability anymore. Cause a very few men are like you nowdays; they actually WANT to provide for a wife and even support her if a divorce happen.
To be honest a society are going better if both males and females work, even in the muslim world they realize it in some countries, like Iran. Daycare are given to everyone here in Sweden nowdays and you pay as much as everyone does, I think it´s like 100 dollars for one month, so even people on wellfare can affort that.
Hope you find the wife of your dreams;-)
"Go hunting and bring a deer" it sounds both like a nice fairytale and very unfamiliar. I can´t even handle a gun and I am a city girl.. So it sounds very strange to me, but at the same time; that´s where we all comes from and the meat are surely superdelicate! I have only eaten fresh fish that I brought up on the plate myself, once, when I was a kid. That was awesome. Now I am vegetarian cause of the food industry.
Having a system that focuses on the collective doesn't necessary mean you will have less opportunities to pursue individual success. Swedes pay higher taxes, sure. But they also have a system every citizen can benefit from in order to achieve this individualistic success. Take free education for example. Just because you have a small amount of extra cash over at the end of the month (due to lower taxes) doesn't mean you always have the money to pay for the education needed to start your own business or get the job you always wanted. But... in the end I'm sure there are ups and downs with both systems. Interesting to hear your opinions though :)
There is nothing for free . You pay it back .
I have lived in Sweden all my life (I'm 20) & I have never heard about the Jantelagen until now
Same
Har du levt under en sten?
same
Vem e du ens?
Samma
I have firsthand experience with Jantelagen hampering progress of both overachieving and underachieving students in school. Since there has to be equal treatment in schools (which I think is stupid by the way) they are not allowed to have special groups for either over- or underachievers. Of course, it varies a bit even within Sweden, but in general that's the way it is.
I was an overachiever in mathematics and an underachiever within basically anything that had to to with writing, but I wasn't allowed to do anything more difficult within mathematics, despite having gone through every single thing in the book. This was in second grade. The teachers eventually gave in and I got to do a bunch of tests. When I was done with all of those, it turned out that I had answered everything perfectly, but at that point, I was basically above the level of a 6th grader. Because of that, the highest they could give me was the book 6th graders had, despite already proving that I could solve whatever was in them. I had that book all the way up to 7th grade, so for about four and a half year I sat with the same book, doing little to nothing. Of course, I could spend more time on something else, but it was really boring.
Then just a few years ago, I experienced another similar thing. I studied at something called folkhögskola, and since I liked mathematics and I assumed it'd be beneficial for the future, I wanted to study even more difficult mathematics, but because the others were at a lower level than that, the principal said that I wasn't allowed, despite the teacher being fully qualified to teach it. I've since bought the book and worked through it all, but the thing is, since I wasn't allowed to do it there, that's something left unverified and I can't even use it if I want to study something that requires it.
If I didn't dislike Jantelagen before that, I certainly do now. It's good when it works but horrible when it doesn't. As long as people are taught how to respect others, Jantelagen is redundant. As for the concept of treating others the way you want to be treated, that's told in Sweden as well. I am fairly certain that the origin isn't the Bible, but it is written in the Bible at least. "Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you."
I don't see why we can't just have that and be done with it. It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp.
It's so cool to hear about your interpretation of the Jante law, and your own experiences of it. I think it's definitely present in Swedish culture. However, it's important to note that the formulation of the law of Jante was never meant to praise or glorify it. It was first codified by a Danish-Norwegian author, Aksel Sandemose, in his book "En flyktning krysser sitt spor" (1933). In it, Jante is the fictional name of a Danish village where the main character ends up after having committed a crime of passion in Newfoundland, and the law of Jante is an reflection on the ignorant and intolerant attitude held by its inhabitants. From the start, the law of Jante is presented as an oppressive way for those who don't know any better to assert their power and not have to get their lifestyles challenged. When Swedes talk about Jante today, it's also most often in negative contexts, like how to not let Jante keep you down and similar. Despite how much we might dislike it, though, I do think there's truth in the observation: Jante lives in us, whether we want it or not.
Very eloquent and relevant. Heck, spot on actually!
As a non-Swede, can I ask about what lifestyles were challenged by the main character? And how is the law of Jante in favor of asserting power on others? Isn’t the whole point of it that individuals shouldn’t assert their power on others?
@@k.c7655 The Jante law is a codification of the attitudes the author encountered when growing up in a small town. It's essentially a negative attitude towards worldliness, wider perspectives, knowledge or anything that might challenge the communal sense of pride and accomplishment. So it's definitely about the collective asserting power on an differing individual to conform to the collective. It's a psychological defence: by rejecting any knowledge or reflective thinking that the differing individual might bring, the collective can live on as they have, confident that their opinions and choices are the best ones.
My parents immigrated to the US in the 1920s, met here in the US, got married and raised two children. My first encounter with jantelagen was when I, in my 50s, visited Sweden for the first time. I felt at ease for the most part. People there were unobtrusive, aware of and polite to others. I realized that this was the way I was raised and now better understood my difficulties at times functioning in America. There is far too much self-aggrandizement in the US (exceptionalism illusion). In Sweden, there is little to none of that. People are friendly and seem more confident because they have a more realistic view of themselves in society - they don't seem to live in fantasyland. Sure, every place has its collection of nuts, crooks, and weirdos, but they don't celebrate them in Sweden. Jante also means no hero worship, and there appears to be much less of it in Sweden. My Swedish cousin and I discussed Jante Law. It, in itself, is more of a cultural relic than a law. Yet, it is indelibly in the culture.
These are not "laws", but they appear in a book by the Danish-Norwegian writer Aksel Sandemose, to describe the social norms in the fictional town of Jante, Denmark. Later on, they have been used to describe the Scandinavian mindset.
It can definitely hold people back. This philosophy had a deeper core during the 70 to early 90s. Today individualism is becoming a more common thing. I think that the law of jante can be a good thing in some respects, especially with the point that everybody is equal, no matter how successful you are, but that's just one of my core beliefs. It could be bad for people as well as it might turn down their dreams and such. Anxiety is a big problem in Sweden and I think a lot of the anxiety and depression stems from the law of jante. Good video!
This mentality is older than the 1970s... quite a bit... :) The free spirited noble class has always floated on top of it though. They never cared much. This was mostly for simple people. ;-)
Actually - you ARE an American. Everyone is aware of that. You can stand out and get away with it. We will excuse you and think it´s charming!
So True.
Omg Stefan when I subbed to you, you had like 300subs now up at 15k jeez good job (I’m not chocked super good channel,) let’s see some surströmming eating now!:)
Pinecone Brah I did as well! So fun to see a channel growing that actually deserves it haha
I'm swedish and I'd say "Jantelagen" these days is considered by most people to be a very old concept that has dissolved more and more as time has gone by. But I do agree that remnants of it still remains in our culture to this day. More or less, depending on the person ... well, more accurattely; it depends on how jealous that person tends to be towards others. I personally do my best to distance myself from this Law since I view it as a very negative worldview. I mean, it's important to grow and be happy about success as well as be happy for others too, right? :)
Well, the core of the Jante law is: Just don’t brag too much.
No one actually thinks that Jante is the key to anything.
We absolutely celebrate individuality and individual success!!
👍
You explained my Swedish father to a T. He was a brilliant man that excelled at many things but spent his life as a civil engineer in public service. He had several degrees and was a reluctant leader. He took long walks and public transportation. He left his children with a strong work ethic and that we were never too good to do any honest work.
As a hole i think swedish people specially young people don't really know Jantelagen, but they still kinda follow it to some degree when they just learn it from starting at birth and thru our culture they get squeezed in to it.
Interesting video! I’m born and raised in Sweden and I’ve never heard benefits of jantelagen but it actually makes sense when you’re talking about it!
I think the interpretations of the laws of Jante might read more harsh than what they were intended to when you translate it into English. They do sound a bit harsh in Swedish too, but we put it into its appropriate context, which is easily done for us since we grew up in this culture.
The Laws of Jante is about minding your own business, remembering that there is a greater picture and a grander scheme of things (you are not the center of the universe, basically), equality, to treat people as if they are of the same worth, be mindful of other peoples feelings, that the collective is stronger than one single lonely individual. But long description made very short, the core essence of Jante is to remind you about how you shouldn't assume that you are better as a person than the other people around you. To remember to be humble.
Swedes tend to get really annoyed with people who brag about themselves and that are sort of patting themselves on the back over something they did, or who is constantly talking about themselves, it comes of as arrogant and narcissistic. To be boasting about yourself like that is really unattractive to Swedes. You come of as if you are completely full of yourself. At the same time though! We love to praise people and congratulate them on something they succeeded with or did well, but don't make the mistake to be bragging about it or act smug. We might then think you were either fishing for it, or don't truly value the compliment we just gave you.
Swedes are overall very individualistic and caring about the collective at the same time. We've become increasingly more individualistic over the last decade or so, but still, Jante is deeply rooted within our culture and definitely a big part of us as a people.
I think it very much depends on where in Sweden you live when it comes to living by Jante. Bigger cities such as Stockholm might have a more individualistic view than people in rural areas. I've grown up in the north, in a rural area, and with everyone knowing everyone. I think that makes it easier for me to think of the collective first, and me as a person next. Because in tiny places we need the group in a way people from big cities might not.
So Jante just came naturally, and we were taught it early. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for success, just as long as it doesn't go to your head. And usually more individual success means greater responsibility to the collective.
As a Swede who was raised by this, I agree with a general focus on the collective. I believe high taxes are necessary for our society to keep running as it is, for roads to be built and maintained, for teachers to get paid, for free healthcare, all of that. I think applying the law on a society scale is a good thing.
But I hate how it pushes down individuals. That you can't say you're good at something, or be proud about it. That you can't stand out or be different. That you'll be weird if you wear bright colours. It's very frustrating. I believe in the philosophy on a wide scale, but we shouldn't ignore the individual, and shouldn't make individuals feel bad about themselves.
I was called arrogant my whole life, and it always made me feel awful about myself. Then I got American friends and talked to them about it, and they didn't get it at all. What was considered arrogant by Swedish standards was just being proud of yourself by American standards, and the whole thing has impacted my self-esteem in a bad way. I'm 26 and I'm still feeling that.
It's not a philosophy, it's from a Danish book. And no most do not live by it, actually talking about jantelagen, is a way of saying "your to backwards and stiff". Atleast that was the meaning when it was coined. Older generation might abide to it in some degree but that's an eco from Swedens protestant past.
Well, I (a Swede) wasn’t raised being told that I wasn’t enough or to think I am not as Good as ”they” are, rather the opposite. But I’m not overly confident myself, so I tend to ask people like, ”What are you wearing to School now when it’s so warm?” cause I like to Wear somewhat similar things so I don’t look stupid unfortunately- but this is just My personality gleaming through, maybe because I don’t trust my own instincts. There’s so many people in my closest environment who don’t care what other thinks - and I LOVE that. That’s being True to yourself.
First of all it should be noted that "Jantelagen" or the "Law of Jante" isn't an actual law and it's not an old concept at all.
It was formulated by a Danish-Norwegian writer named Aksel Sandemose in 1933, in writing about a fictitious town called Jante, which was based on the town he grew up in.
It's basically the expression of one individual intellectual who hated the small town where he grew up and who expressed his dissatisfaction with it in literary form.
It caught on, because it's frankly not a unique feeling to have - many young people growing up in small towns all over the world chafe at what they view as conservative restrictions and narrowminded thinking around them.
The concept was then popularized after the Second World War mainly by the political right in Scandinavia, who viewed the emergence of the social democratic welfare state as a threat to individual freedom.
But the Nordic societies have in fact always been more collective then most other places in the world - because we've frankly had to be to survive.
Always sparsely populated, the Nordic nations (even before they became nations), contained tribes that for their own survival had to find ways to cooperate against both the harsh elements and foreign threats.
When the Vikings went on long journeys across the seas to foreign shores, members of different tribes had to be able to cooperate and share the spoils evenly amongst them.
And they had to trust that their wives and children back home weren't attacked while they where gone.
So peace had to be kept by the different tribes and within them. One person couldn't demand much more then everyone else, because the contribution of everyone was necessary for the tribe to survive.
Sure, a big strong warrior might be important on raids abroad - but without the little girl picking berries in the woods at home or tending the goats, the tribe would have less to eat and possibly starve during the long, harsh winter.
Keeping everyone reasonably content and working together towards a common goal was crucial, and as such common rules had to be enforced.
The collective was always more important then the individual.
Once we got hereditary kings, Sweden never developed the feudal system that was common in mainland Europe - or the system of serfs that was used in Russia.
There where always a class of yeoman farmer who owned their own land and paid their taxes directly to the crown - and they had political representation, unlike in the rest of Europe.
Because of our low population density, every individual was more valuable for the work they could produce and as such they held a stronger position.
Neither kings, the nobility nor the church ever achieved the complete control over the people like they did down on the continent.
So even if those times where obviously not democratic, there was still always slightly less of a hierarchical society in Sweden - and even people of the lower social orders weren't quite as brutally exploited as elsewhere.
The old traditions of cooperation and collectivism then meant that when socialism emerged in the 19th century, the Nordic workers where very well equipped to utilities those principles to organize themselves.
The labor movement and then socialist political parties where built on the basic idea that the collective is stronger then the individual - and as that has always been understood in Nordic life to be true, it was probably easier here then elsewhere to organize according to those principles.
In general it brought great benefits to the average worker and citizen - but it also demanded sacrifices of course.
To keep the collective together you have to respect everyone in it and social cohesion in the group is benefited by everyone conforming to it.
It's then easy to see why a young Aksel Sandemose in 1933 could feel the little town he grew up in was narrowminded and stifling to his individuality.
It probably was - to him. But it's also quite possible that social cohesion also gave him benefits - but that he didn't value those as highly.
So, generally speaking, this "Jantelagen" isn't a real law and it's not something most people in the Nordic countries feel is especially oppressive.
If it had been, those conditions obviously wouldn't have existed.
Instead, we've had a historically long tradition of complying with a collective as that has been in our long-term benefit.
Most regular citizens have historically felt that the trade-off has been worth it to keep our chosen collective together in the face of external threats to our wellbeing.
Some individuals (especially when young) have obviously hated the pressure to conform to a collective - but in the long run, our societies have done pretty well by choosing this model of collective cooperation.
Today we are however among the richest countries in the world and our strong welfare states guarantee our individual rights and freedoms.
No one is any longer forced to conform to a collective for their own survival - but many of us still see the value in collective cooperation.
Those that don't sometimes use "Jantelagen" as a pejorative to disparage the cooperative principles our societies where built by - and in the process forget or ignore that they only have the individual freedoms and quality of life they have today, because generations before them chose to work together.
I don't really know what older generations feel about jantelagen but young adults, teens & pre teens think it's absolute bullshit & we often discuss it in school, especially in high school. The main purpose of jantelagen was that everyone was supposed to be equal so that no one would feel left out/inferior. But, yeah, it's all bs & if you hear it as a kid you're basically being told that you're nothing & will never amount to anything, so younger generations hate it.
Love you and your channel Stefan❤️ its so cool to see an amerikan learning swedish and its even better that we get to come along your journey
For me jante have been the opposite of how you see it. "You are not speciall"-mindset make me more hungry for success. A way of not making my achivements go to my head and strive for even more, a "this does not make me speciall, l can still do even better" point of view.
You make it sound like the otherway around. Like "im not speciall i better quite" way.
The Jante law wasn't made to be followed but a satire based on observations of how some people behave. I think it goes both ways though: you shouldn't think you're better than others, but you shouldn't think anyone else is better than you either
Me as a Swed thinks the philosophy behind Jantelagen is destroying many peoples dreams. I do think it does make many people in Sweden over worked to somewhat feel success and because the lack of support from society to follow our dreams makes many people to suffer depression, having a dream is many times bad in Sweden, no new thinking is rarely allowed in Sweden because of the Jante mindset and because of that we do not learn how to pursue our dreams. I think most stuff in Jantelagen harms the Swedish population more than it does good. Yeah we're all equal and should have same rights but that shouldn't be on the cost of people's dreams. That's how I think and I do think we should leave that unwritten law in the sand and start to accept and embrace that some people knows more than us and we could always learn what those people knows so we can know more ourselves if we are interested in learning that. I do not think you're American lifestyle is wrong, I would rather have grown up in that kind of lifestyle myself. We can't put everyone on the same wavelength and hope that it won't collapse, we are all different, and different is most of the time good. Some are good in school and learn super quickly, some don't. It doesn't mean they are bad student's it's only mean that they have other strengths we don't see in a bench at school. We all have a strengths and weaknesses and they are never the same, we should embrace that and learn from each other instead of forcing everyone to be the same. And we sweds are very afraid to fail but it's not because it's bad it's because our society tells us that failing is really bad and shame on you if you do anything wrong and fail. You never rarely have people in Sweden who dare to do something with the trial and error mindset. We can't learn from our mistakes if we don't dare to fail. And much of that is due to a Jantelag mindset. That is what I think and believe, the Jantelagen should be destroyed and never seen again.
As many others has said, it's not that big anymore. It's more an idea to follow.
Now it's more like you have to be perfect in every area. You have to be an amazing friend, you have to have a well paid job with a lot of flexible hours so you have a lot of free time. You have to be an amazing parent. You have to be an amazing sibling and song/daughter. You should have a lot of money saved, but you should also spend a lot of money. You should travel a lot.
It's exhausting
Jantelagen isn't followed that much. It was written in 1933, so even before the second world war (ask Linn about it).
We are fully allowed to stick out of the crowd, nothing is holding us back from working towards our own goal.
Though I don't think we think as highly of a career compared to The American Dream for example, there's many other things that has high or even higher value than an important career.
But I'd guess it's highly different depending on where in Sweden you live :)
For the tax part I have to admit that I have a tendency to brag about it. It really feels like we don't let people get stuck in the dump with no way out. People make bad choices, some of those may continue to do so but they deserve to have a way out (which is not the case for people in the worst parts of the US).
The difference between low taxes in the US and high in Scandinavia is the fact that the US Govt currently borrows $ 52000 a second. What kind of taxes will be needed if you are ever going to pay it back? 99%?
Great video Stefan
I think the biggest impact the spirit of jantelagen has had on my life is that I rarely hear anyone brag about their accomplishments and for example when I apply for jobs I always find it hard to market myself/talk about my accomplishments. I would for example never put any skill on a CV that I don't know to a 110% that I'm able to do.
For me, Jante is really about the glue that binds the country together and has allowed us to survive in what actually is a quite harsh environment. You may note, if you travel around Sweden that the attitude you describe is more common or strong the farther north you get, and it's stronger in smaller communities. It's about helping each other, no one is to good to do their part. And i think it's a big part in why sweden has so many associations, unions, organisations and so on. Nothing is too small to organise around, to form an association around, elect representatives, and in those organisations you do your part, millionaire or janitor, or you will meet the somewhat nasty downside of it;
And here's where it's a bit tricky. You might mess up, and you will most likely never be told so. Ours is a culture of avoiding confrontation, conflict and friction. What will happen is there will be less fika, less talk, less help, less eye contact, less calls. One that doesn't abide by the rules and act like they are above it all will find out what a lonely place Sweden can be, without being told why.
The good part is that foreign people has a bit of leeway, it is understood by all that it takes time to fit in.
But as long as you pick up the dishes at work when it's your week, dont play loud music after 23:00, queue properly, don't interfere with peoples personal spheres and never ever cross a picket line, you should be good. ;)
The law of Jante appeals to me. I was born and raised in the USA and I find that we are a greedy nation. People are simply out for themselves especially the rich and very rich. We do not care who gets an education, how much debt they must run up or who has health care. With more experience you may realize our failures. But nothing will change here because the wealthy will always rule
This shows an extreme lack of economic understanding. The wealthy have power because the people allows them to have power. They work their entire lives to provide the public with a service, and in exchange, they accumulate wealth. Taxes are entitlement. You feel entitled to what they have earned, just because they were innovative and supplied the public with a service that they needed.
Please tell me, would you rather work 6 days a week, 9 hours every day and risk all your life savings on developing a product or service that you belive the public needs, or would you rather work a 6 hour job and have a set salary at the end of each month? Because one will get you rich and one wont. If you choose the safe option, you are in no way entitled to the money of the people that took the risks.
Katt1N but in the us that goes to the extreme. You can work 10 hours a day 6 Days a week and still get a salary at the end of the month just enough to survive. And then never get the education or the resources to try to start your own company since your parents didnt have enough money to get those opportunities for you.
Interesting. The law of jante is of course not a law, but the statements was more an expression of critique against the culture of jante, but I think that you are right about that we are more influenced by it than we think. And that may be the reason why many of us struggle with the growing selfishness. We were brought up to feel solidarity with others and I do believe that a society based on solidarity is more fair, just and equal. And that is important. However, it is not about restricting individual goals. When it is, it's usually about the culture within a family when parents for example disagree with your choices. But that happens everywhere as well... 🤔
I love this channel, I've been watching for a while, and I love these "difference between Sweden and The us" because I live in Sweden but my Best online friend lives in the us.
Make sure to keep your sleeping schedule going, having good friends in America through the internet is definitely beneficial (especially if you want to be an experienced dual language user) but you gotta make sure you keep your daily routine in check so it doesn't become long nights with short sleep.
It will slowly tear at you with time. Other than that, awesome! (y)
Linus too late 😅 my sleep schedule sucks 😜
Sommilon Then i command you to fix it.
I can definitely agree how Jante Law has significantly impacted Nordic culture in general. I met many people in Sweden and Norway who will say how it doesn’t impact them anymore, and can be more of a joke nowadays. I think people here just do not see the significance it can still have within their society. It was not even 100 years since those ideals were introduced and widespread through their society. As American citizens, we were raised in an environment where everyone proclaimed the opposite of what Jante Law stood for. We are encouraged to be the best individual we can be, to stand out and achieve great things. Here, I feel like having that personal drive and dedication can almost be shameful. People may ask “how can want you want to do with your life benefit society and others around you?” In America we may have been asked, “How can what you want to do with your like benefit you own well being?”
I can see a lot of this within choices of career here. Where I lived in California, there are many people who start their own businesses. Both of my parents, my brother and his wife all make their own income and are completely self-sufficient that way. This is not really seen as an abnormal way of life. Here in Sweden, it seems like you are more encouraged to work under a larger company. It also must be a lot more difficult to start your own business, because of the high taxes.
One thing I can really appreciate about what it has brought to their culture, is the humble spirit everyone has. People are respectful of others and very considerate. They welcome others and are open to new cultures ❤️
One random question for Swedes who may be reading this comment: Do you have a national day (like 4th of July in the US or syttende mai in Norway), and if so, do you celebrate it? Why/why not?
I, as a swede, find Jante both good and awful, it can absolutely be destructive but it can also be humbling. Personally I take the humbling part and skip the rest.
The law of Jante is from a Danish book about how life is like living in a small town in the middle of nowhere, in this case a fictional Danish town called Jante. As such I think you'd find a similar experience to this even in America if you are living in some rural town somewhere.
At lot of Sweden consists of small rural communities, so that may be one reason this is prevalentl here to a greater extent than elsewhere. In the bigger cities I don't see much of the law of Jante in my opinion.
Love your videos. I'm going to Sweden in September. For some reason, I've always believed my true love is somewhere in Sweden, which is why I must go there. To find true love. I have lived in California and New York most of my life, so as an American, your words really speak to me and help me understand the Swedish culture more, not to mention you're also helping me prepare myself just in time for my trip and search for love. Thank you, Stefan! Tack så mycket!
stockholm here, never heard about that. im 27 years old.
yoo i really enjoy your videos keep it upp bro
I was borne and raised with the Swedish culture. I now have difficulties getting accepted in the Danish culture. The difference between European cultures is important to some.
You interpretation of jantelagen might have been more accurate 50 years ago or so. Today, not so much. The only part I or anyone else I know "live by" this "law" is that I don't presume to know more or be better than anyone else. I give everyone a chance to show who they are and what they bring. I believe I can learn a lot from other people and only judge someone to be a jackass AFTER they have proven to be a jackass. What jantelagen used to mean was "we don't make much fuss over the fact that we might be good at something. Instead, we were like "yea, it was ok, I'm sure other people are good at it too". In modern-day Sweden it more closely resembles what I mentioned above where people are open to the fact that they can learn from others instead of thinking they are the best in the world, they see their obligations and not just their rights etc. I and everyone I know spend their lives trying to "improve and become better" and "following their dreams and ambitions". Sure there are some people who for one reason or another see life as beeing "handed to them" and "out of their control" but that is true for all around the globe.
Ofc we do have some people in Sweden who believe that simply by being born they are the greatest thing to ever walk the planet. We as a "collective" just don't take that at face value but instead say to ourselves "he should probably deflate that ego of his a bit".
Now IF a person actually wins the gold medal in a sport, has vast knowledge about an area of expertise we VERY MUCH look up to them and listen to them and their experiences.
So jantelagen might makes us not wet our pants at some athletics boy who is about to take his first ever football lesson (soccer for some of you) because he claims he will become the best player in the world we can very much look up to someone who actually IS the best player in the world. This is probably why we as a collective might not automatically go super crazy just because someone is a child of someone who happens to be rich. We don't see that as something that makes them deserve special treatment. Whereas in the US we at times see people get supercelebrity status and sit a peg above other simply because they got drunk on reality TV. Now, these reality TV people exist in Sweden too and some people believing they are god exists too, but for most of us they are simply amusement on TV and seen as any other person (or perhaps even looked "down" on due to their behavior on TV).
Many people in Sweden DO stand out and are very vocal. Some out of knowledge and experience and some due to a big ego. We as a society tend to prefer the former. We just don't automatically presume that all extrovert people are somehow superior. Many people start their own businesses in Sweden too (even large brands I guess Americans have heard about like Volvo, Spotify, Mojang, DICE and on and on), many people follow their desires and dreams.
The law of Jante was written by a Danish guy who hated Scandinavian culture. That is something I like to point out when talking about them because all in all I think they are positive but they are knowingly written to seem negative :)
Vem fan är Jante?
Impulse eller hur?
Jag tror de är nån
peddogube
Jante is a fictional town in Denmark which features in a 1930s novel by the Danish author Sandemose. The town was purportedly modelled after the town in which he himself grew up. The mentality that the Janteloven (law of Jante) reflects is that of people living in a small town where nothing really happens and predictability is the preferred state of affairs. Thus everyone must know their place or otherwise be shamed for not complying to the norms. As an aspiring artist Sandemose of course found it suffocating. Note that for Sandemose this was a mentality that he felt was characteristic exclusively of small towns, and not rural areas or big cities, like Aarhus or Copenhagen. The concept of the Jantelaw has since broadened and changed depending on various social circumstances and political ideologies.
😂😂
Jante är ju Peters brorsa.. Du vet Peter Svensson..
Great channel!
Do u live in Stockholm?
Nordic people do have somewhat mixed feelings about Janteloven.
However it's not unique to the nordic region.
You'll find a lot of places in the midwest where those laws actually do apply to some degree from what I've heard.
Anyway, they're formulated in a way to express the negative aspects of the basic idea.
The positive ones are expressed in concepts like "Lagom".
I think the Jantelag stands for a philosophy that’s based on the thought that as long as people are experiencing oppression, poverty or other kinds of factors of illness of some sort, it doesn’t matter how successful I am, or how much money I have in the bank. No one is free until everyone is free!
/born and raised Swede
The Jante law (Janteloven, Norway) is a set of rules originated in Denmark, but is intergrated in the whole of Scandinavia. This is a major reason to the countries stability, and equality. It makes people humble, and we threat people very equally regardless of status. It doesn't mean you shouldn't stand out at all, its the fact that we are all equally worth, does this cause that people are less concerned with being unique in style, act etc? sure. it might sound like a harsh set of rules, but it's great to destruct judgementality and inequality. If you think you are better than anyone in Scandinavia due to success, you will be laughed at, and your values would be considered pathetic.
I think Jantelagen is more about not bragging than it is about not wanting success or to better one self. A very Swedish thing is that people tend not to dare taking the last bit of food or the last slice of cake when sharing with several people in case someone else wants it. We also never talk to strangers on a bus, why would they want to talk to you? Those things can definitely be traced to Jantelagen.
The way i see it is that it is comparable with ”Treat others like you would like to be treatened yourself”
Nowadays it is encouraged to forfill yourself, but to stay humble.
Although we may be the most secular country the warning of the sin of Pride still lies in the back of our heads.
If you want to learn about the ultimate Swedish rags to riches story of swedes that apply to ”Jante” you should look up the founder of IKEA.
Nowadays however the mainstream stars are making a point of behaving oposite to the law of Jante.
Just a note: Jantelagen originally stems from Denmark (Sandemose).
Jantelagen originated in Norway. It was in a novel by Aksel Sandemose, a norwegian writer who grew up in Denmark. The novel was called "A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks". And I think that the number of businesses started in Sweden is on par with the US if you look at per capita. The number of businesses that fail within the first two years is also the same in both countries. So I don't think Jante plays a big part in that aspect of Swedish life and society?
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/09/sweden-startups/541413/
It's soon graduation time and you'll notice in your school that the students probably don't tell others what their grades are and there are usually not any special achievement awards or so either. In the states, it seems like students can get stipends, awards etc starting at a young age. Here it is not encouraged, and also we don't get grades until 6th grade (I got mine the first time in 8th grade before they changed the system of grading). It goes along with the law of Jante that one should not think you are better than someone else or stand out. We are all the same, and everyone should have the same opportunities for education is the Swedish belief. Applying to Uni is only based on GPA or the test score from högskoleprovet. Nothing else is weighed in. I think in the states volunteering, sports, leadership and so on makes you a better applicant to Uni,. It's unheard of here. No one is a better applicant than someone else.
The Jante law (Jantelagen) was written down by Aksel Sandemose in his novel "A refugee crosses his tracks". He was danish/norwegian and described his upp growing in a small town (Lemvig) in northern Denmark. He described the small town mentality, he felt as a prison. People with narrow mentality keeping others back. Those then rules limits people in small town societies. Oh you want to go to the big town and study at the university? Who the hell do you think you are? Oh, so farming isn't good enough for you? Don't you think you are better than us!
So it's a critique of peoples jealousy and the way the collective build boundaries for other people. Nobody says they live by the Jante law. Everybody say they don't, but more often than people think they act upon the law. It is hard to go against the consensus in Sweden, more than in Denmark. People are afraid of conflicts and to be the odd person by the side. And the price to pay for be the one speaking out against consensus can be high. It is sometimes like swedes don't grow past adolescence. It's the junior high school yard mentality upp through life. Who is in group, who is not. And that is dangerous because extreme people trive on that, so the consensus and what is "the right thing" easy goes to extremes in Sweden. We are not "landet lagom" as they think. Just look at the political views on immigration. It's either "everybody is welcome, we can take all refugees to Sweden" or "Close that border, send them home". And the pendulum can go turn very fast. (Im danish live in Sweden since over 40 years)
I am a swede and i didnt even know of the law. I can see your point of being discrete in sweden and that is really important fact that you can see for example when you are traveling or in the street.
I think it´s great how humble you are. In that aspect, you make for a great person, wherever you are. I think that many parts of this "jäntelagen" is obsolete.
Så först och främst: Kollat lite på din kanal och bra jobbat :D
Weird dock att se Norrköping på youtube,,,I alla fall inte på en sådan här stor kanal.
Det ända som störde mig lite var att du får det låta som Svenskar inte försöker bli bättre och bättre, för det tror jag alla gör.
Sedan kanske vi är lite ödmjukare om vad vi är bättre i.
This is so so true, you are very well spoken! I can see how you are a teacher! I feel like I want to stand out but many swedes would be like " psss no they are looking at us, be quiet! " Haha. I'm in America now actually, in California, I love it!
Jantelagen as you read it out is originally a Danish author's extremely cynical interpretation of certain aspects of Scandinavian culture, it is essentially satire.
We certainly have Jantelagen in our culture but it is no where near as extreme as the points you mentioned. Often when Jantelagen is brought up here in Sweden it is so with negative connotations (at least in my experience), describing a jealous passive-aggressive attitude to people who have accomplished something in their life. It is less common in certain geographical places and social classes. I live in a university city in Sweden and Jantelagen is far less pronounced here than in other places, all though I have still certainly experienced it many times.
Living near the capital in California, it is hard here unless you have a great job with a wealthy company. The homeless population is growing. I went to college, but didn't finish because I got pregnant and needed to raise my children. Since childcare is too expensive and my husband all of a sudden needed to work 2 jobs instead of going to college, all to support us. The individual mindset is hard, because there isn't enough family support, even if they are really nice, to help watch the kids so I can work or go to school. Its been a hard road. I have learned a lot and it hasn't all been bad. Most of the time we didn't have health benefits either because we couldn't afford them. We had to just ignore the hospital bills and try to be as healthy as we can. Learning about natural home remedies and healthy living has been the positive. Now I work at a good job part time and get benefits, but my husband working full time and my wage is still barely enough to live. Rent is really expensive and goes up every year. life is paycheck to paycheck. Everything is paid by your own way here. Its hard. Now my kids are old enough so I can go back to college, finally. Thankfully, without needing a babysitter.
I love Your videos så piiiip much!! From Sweden🇸🇪
Im 17 and live close to Linköping and to be honest i did not even know about this law and nobody have ever told me to live by it but at the same time it’s quite true if you think about it. I guess i have lived with this ”law” even tho i had no clue it existed it just followed me natrualy.
I think it's a bit different to just start following the jante law like that, and to just been growing up with the concept, even without knowing about jante laws. When I started to think about it, the jante law don't restrain me really, "any" goal is obtainable, it's more a matter of what the process should be.
And in a way like you, It just made me realize, that goals shouldn't be actualised, if it means me not respecting others or me trample over others.
And to always keep in mind the rest of the people.
Murica feels more like "make it or break it". Like it's a race to the top
Personally I think individuality is more celebrated in Sweden than in the US
Honestly Alaska and the rural Midwest are places in the USA that support individuality the most because the west coast and the north influenced by technocratic yankee politics and the Southerners have the Bible Belt (Christianity is actually collectivistic) which can harshly suppress individuality depending on where you are
Thank you, herr Thyron, for your excellent and enlightening descriptions of your experiences in a culture different from the one you were raised in (although the difference is very probably not very great; in most places in the world they would be much greater). I only miss one observation in this video, one that must have been made by many others than me, namely that the originator of "the Law of Jante", the writer Aksel Sandemose, formulated the Law as a satire of perceived or alleged attitudes. You may have taken them overly seriously. The fact that they were formulated in Scandinavia as a parody of public law does not necessarily indicate that they apply with greater stringency there than elsewhere. Sandemose merely maintained that they existed and used them in the manner of a creative writer.
I live in Sweden and I have experienced jantelagen and I hate it. I have experienced it in the stabe. When I had accomplished something when competing no one congratueleted me, even if i did it with the stable's horse, so not my own horse and my trainers where just condencending and just tired to "push me down". That made me feel a little sad because they owned the horse and they where my trainers so they should compliment me when I do something good. I still want people to see me and give me credit for the things I accomplish and that's why I hate jantelagen.
Jantelagen is a term invented by the Danish-Norwegian writer Aksel Sandemose and is ment as a critic of a small town mentality. In sweden most of the people love persons that is extraordinary and even brag about them selves like Zlatan the Swedish soccer-player. At least when everything is going fine and he is scoring.
Aksel Sandemose, the author who came up with the Jantelagen in the book "En flykting korsar sitt spår" is danish, so the law should be considered to be just danish. I would say it´s much easyer to change your societal position, or change class, in Sweden compared to the same in USA.
I dont think Jantelagen is a very important part of Swedish society anymore. But I think it's based on treating everyone equally and creating a good collective rather than taking away one's individuality.
One more thing that is typically Swedish jante. In Sweden many people does not want to say how much the ear for a living. Its kind of rude to ask another person that, it can be okay with family or really close friends. But not always, and to ask people you work with or friends friend, that a big no no here.
Bra video!
Never even heard those points and i lived here for 48 years :)
Not really it's from a book from 1933 "En flykting korsar sitt spår" by the Dane-Norweigan author Aksel Sandemose.
Mostly used by people when they have to take consideration to others in any way inconvient to them, they sulk and blame it on jante-lagen.
Many of us have never even read that book
Here in Minnesota we have an American form of jantelagen. It sort of allows for a celebration of individuality while still emphasising on humility and to not think you are special. Its prob why the state is so progressive.
No, plenty of people in Minnesota have no Scandinavian ancestry and are assholes because they think they are better than everyone else. It only feels better than other states because of the few people with Scandinavian ancestry that haven't fallen for the American attitude of self-righteousness.
Jantelagen was something people lived by a LONG time ago. I never thought people actually thought we lived like that. I honestly think there is pretty much no one that lives by the JanteLag bec why?
I suspect the awareness and understandinig of "Jantelagen", reflects the socio- economic status of the individual. Most immigrants have probably never heard of it. Would be interesting to know what percentage of younger ppl. in Sweden, with "native" parents, have heard of it (it's a bit of an outdated cultural reference).
This is very similar to Confucianism in East Asia.
Confucianism forces you to humble yourself and respect others.
Confucianism dominates East Asia very strongly.
It's interesting to see what these different regions have in common.
The "Law of Jante" was written in 1933 by the norwegian writer Aksel Sandemose.
i live in sweden and i've not been raised by the law od jante, bearly heard it in fact , like onespiker said in another comment , i also think it was much stronger a long time ago