I debated whether to leave this comment at the risk of coming across uncaring or unnecessarily harsh but getting through Shinzen's segments was...rough. I actually had to pause a few times, feeling second hand embarrassment, thinking - Oh dear! I love what he has done for the dhamma community, and his ability to link distant ideas is his quirky talent, but I feel like the subject matter was nirodha, the paper, the science, Delson's sutta and experiential interpenetrations of what might be happening etc... meanwhile we've got Shinzen riffing on arguably completely unrelated subjects and two scientists sitting quietly for long stretches, unable to put the conversation back on track after another curveball on cosmic math, medieval Christianity or how many networks might be in parallel universes etc. While his passion and joy of nerding out are infectious, I'm not sure if it benefits the conversation of this kind. Sometimes it's ok to discuss the subject at hand as is - dhamma doesn't need wild "this is deep" takes. Judging from the comments, some listeners thought themselves as lacking and unable to comprehend some of these remarks. Meanwhile quite often they aren't much more than "dude, what if there's a universe inside every atom" speculations you'd exchange with your friend over beer. Thank gou Steve for creating this platform. Just seeing the episode title made my day.
I echo the same sentiments. More often than not he derailed and stopped a very well grounded and beautiful flow between Delson and Reuben which I wanted to hear more about to areas which were airy fairy and difficult to understand.
Dear Guru Viking. I think you really dropped the ball in this interview!!! Surely part of your function as a host is to moderate and invite guests who have given you their time to do a little more than to sit there like lemons with ears bleeding from Shinzen's merciless diarrhoea. He may do it with a smile but he was very unkind in this interview. It seemed like you just left them unprotected to fight for a moment of communication. I do really love your channel and your interview style as a whole and I am so grateful for the content you put out. If this was the first experience I had of your channel I wouldn't have come back.
I was going to make a comment about Shinzen's need for a network upgrade that includes boundaries but I'm way late to that party. More proof that success in meditation bears little connection to self awareness, other awareness, and general human decency. With that in mind, I learned a ton. Grateful to have suffered through.
He was not listening and seemed to want to show his knowledge and intellect (centered around himself), clearly the opposite of the path of meditation. Would have loved to hear more from Delson and Ruben. In many instances he interrupted and derailed a very grounded and beautiful flow.
In the 9 months since I wrote that it has become a central feature of my understanding of how meditation works and what it does. I actively taught for 10 years and had 1000 students in 6 week sessions during that time. That Shinzen, who I love, was completely self-absorbed in something as simple as a conversation with peers tells us that meditation makes not a dollop of difference in the operating psychology of the meditator. In fact, he was so lost in his own bullshit, frequently arrogant, that I'll argue it tells us that meditation turns you into a self-absorbed twit. I've seen it hundreds of times but when an enlightened one gives you a public glimpse it contextualizes all the others. Of all the comical things I just went to his Wikipedia page and found this: "An irritable child and poor student." In this video he's the same guy, 70 years later. So much for enlightenment practice. And yet I love him anyway. Grateful for all the gifts he gave me.
Great interview, very interesting, except for Shinzen's blizzard of interruptions. He has deep knowledge, and lot to say, but cannot wait his turn to say it. He does the same thing, every time.
Steve I love your work but in this case I think you could have done a better job moderating. Shinzen dominated the conversation with terminology that I'm pretty sure not a single person in your audience will understand. It's great that Shinzen has this knowledge but if he can't put it into layman's terms it just serves to act as a distraction. Cheers
This video is beginning to make the rounds in AI circles because of those comments. I found that section very interesting. Yes, it's terminology that is for too complicated, but it was only a few minutes
I just do not align with Shinzen. Every interview I’ve ever seen with him I’ve been reminded of people I’ve known who just are not able to flow with others and often when they speak I think “What?” Very clunky. I think Michael Taft helped him more than just a little with his book.
Shinzen does tend to rabbit hole and I'm sure Michael Taft had to do some hard core editing. But, you just have to listen to the Science of Enlightenment audiobook(which came first and isn't a reading of the book), or one of Shinzen's dharma talks to know that he doesn't always or didn't used to rabbit hole as much.
He’s the perfect illustration of what Buddhadasa called a “white darkness,” which is when so-called knowledge darkens the mind like a hall of mirrors. He derailed the whole conversation and interrupted every other speaker each time they spoke, showing a complete absence of free will due to a servitude to the algorithms of thought bubbling through his mind.
~ one of my favorites: "Ariyamagga Sutta: The Noble Path"-"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma" "And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? "And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? "And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? AN 4.235 at Access to Insight.
Oh man I was so into hearing what Delson was saying at 1:11:10 when Shinzen abruptly interrupted so abrasively and derailed the conversation. The frustration of everyone else in the conversation is palpable. It is as if his ego is invested in moderating the conversation and contextualizing it for the muggle scientists that he cannot allow a conversation to take place without him (Shinzen) being the ringleader. More Delson, less Shinzen. Why is he even here? It isn't about him. Why let him tag along? Out of charity, it seems? I had to stop watching soon after that because I just am not interested in what Shinzen has to say about his off topic interests. I want to hear about Delson's nirodha, not AI arhats which AI doesn't even have the Buddha Nature.
@@Vogelruf good point. but we know that AI arhats are presently still a bad joke. Mud Butter for our enlightenment toast. Free energy enlightenment, let me just take this phone call. What kind of information organization system is fart world when described through the lens of set theory? Can this we correlate with Brunism? Can we model how two cheeks separate the middle inner? That's a concept of action that we could be giving a reified semblance of existence, to suggest the possibility of seeing into a mathematical model of computer gimmickry simulating the girlfriend experience. This can be compared with Buddhism, I suppose. But there's no real action there, since modernized Buddhism might involve two humans touching reality instead of reaching for an abstraction mediated through a computer model of ideas about reality. We know this.
I couldn't finish the episode in one go, having to pause after each of Shinzen's wild detours. The long silences during which other panelists charitably stay quiet and listen were palpable - ouch.
Shinzen is so smart that when he starts talking I realize how stupid I am. But even as a fool I know when to let others speak and not steal the show all the time. I learned one thing from this conversation - I was and will remain in this incarnation a simple meditation practitioner. It makes me a little better and more compassionate person and allows me to bear the difficulties of life a little easier. Sometimes I also have spiritual experiences. Maybe I should settle for that.
thank you guru, very interesting. shinzen should try to limit his math self-talk, it kills the conversation. he always does that, starts talking about shit few people understand and nobody has the courage to stop him...😂
Yeah, He's such a nice guy, nobody wants to be mean to him. He seems unable to wait his turn. Just busts in in the middle of someone else's sentence with his random thoughts . Very distracting. There should be a "raise your hand" rule about interruptions, with your mike muted otherwise. Shinzen, if you are reading this, try to control yourself and respect the other participants by not breaking their train of thought with your blizzard of interruptions. Okay, I have been the bad guy. You're welcome. It was difficult. Cheers.
Had enough of Shinzen in the first 40 minutes. Came here to see if I was alone. Very much not. Although, as a meditation practice, it's great to listen to him and see how it affects me. Shinzen logic at it's finest (1:30:25) “We solve the dana problem in Buddhism. How do we get paid for teaching? You want to be a professional teacher of mindfulness? How are you going to make a living? Well, you have to charge. Now with the new AI, we don’t have to charge for this expertise. We just replicate the information.” Huh?
When Shinzen refers to dark retreat I am pretty sure that he is referring to the Tibetan Dzogchen tradition. I have never heard of a dark retreat lasting 3 years, 3 months, and 3 days. The dark retreat traditionally lasts for 49 days, corresponding to the bardos between death and rebirth which is said to last 49 days. I think he is confusing it with the Kagyu tradition of the 3 year, 3 month, and 3 day retreat meditating on the 6 yogas, which is entirely different than the dark retreat. I don't think any of these is relevant to the Nirodha Samapati.
Excruciatingly painful - an amazing group of very illustrious, amazing people, with amazing accomplishments, and Shinzen Young dominates the whole dialogue, hijacks it for his own purposes ... such a pity in the company of the people present - very rude and disrespectful. I think Shinzen Young should go back to basic skills before considering how AI can change the world ... such a pity this happened.
the people here in the comments tastelessly dissing Shinzen's totally relevant and fascinating contributions, sadly, have no sense of respect and lack perspective..
proper study of this is done by real scientists in the field by monitoring the precise neural correlates for voluntary attention, concentration, sense data activation, etcetc, not useless crap like tracking brain wave which is almost worthless and a child can do with $100 equipment. this is the case both for authentic practitioners being measured in shamata so far, as well as dead practitioners remaining in tukdam as was the case in taipei 2020 when i was there. the body did not decompose, the body remained supple and flexible and sweet smelling, etcetc for over 30 days post clinical death. a team of neuroscientists were on hand at that time to collect bizarre data that of course a physicalist can make no sense of, such as spontaneous brain activity activation weeks post clinical death to give a minor example. this was the first time a practitioner was tested scientifically in the west i believe the russians were already given this opportunity several years ago, since theyre less insane in their religious worship in church physicalism.
also alan wallace's main dzogchen lama gyatrul rinpoche recently entered a similar state post clinical death and it has been observed reported and documented that his body has already begun undergoing the shrinking process that successful dzogchen practitioners display during the death process post clinical death. whether his body shrinks, disappears leaving only nails and hair behind, or accomplishes full transference disappearing entirely and able to reappear as a full buddhahood display remains to be seen from the latest reports. carry on with your silly crap in the meantime.
Very interesting conversation about Delson Armstrong's extraordinary meditative experiences. I'm looking forward to the sequel where I hope we'll hear more from Delson Armstrong about how his meditation training provides more (or less) than what AI offers when providing cessation experiences; and from Dr. Laukonnen on any concerns about the use of AI for meditative experiences.
the kid is stuck on the 4th stage of the 9 stages of shamata called subtle dullness for long periods of time and doesnt even know it. poor guy needs a real education and should get in contact with alan wallace asap.
@@5piles glad you've got it all figured out, kid. poor guy, you must have a lot of bodhisattvaing to do moderating this here comments section on youtube. quite the workload.
I would like to know from delson what the benefit is of going into nirodha samapatti. Is there greater benefit from 6 days compared to a few seconds. Is there benefit from doing it often. Is the benefit mainly from observing coming back online and seeing dependant origination, or is the benefit from the time itself. Are you concious (for lack of a better word) in any way during that time and have some memory of it when you come out or not at all. And yes i will have to agree with many others that i found shinzeng incredibly frustrating in this conversation . Now that we have had one with him on perhaps the next can be one without him so that others may speak. It might be nice to do a live Q n A with the audience too.
Yes, I second this request. The benefits according to the suttas of nirodha samapatti are the highest, from my readings at least. Meaning complete destruction of the taints. It doesn't get better than that, I think. But I didn't hear this discussed much. Or maybe I missed it. Can nirodha samapatti happen without the complete destruction of the taints? That would be a question I have.
@@KilayaCiriello @onelove7069 Speaking from direct experience, it does not necessarily remove all the taints. It also can be experienced without permanently uprooting the mechanism of self identification. One can have the recognition of anatta and still be sucked back into thought identification. It puts to rest forever any notion of separation and goes a long way toward becoming fearless and improved clarity. The point Delson made about being aware of consciouness going offline and coming back online in reverse is important. For me, it seemed to start in the visual cortex with some clicking sound and rapid movement that proceeded down the body towards the toes as something I can only describe as a whisper of a breath. It was felt like the lightest breeze. There is awareness of it coming back online from the toes towards the head in the same manner cell to cell. Being rolled and unrolled like a scroll is the best image I can give you. Even though I felt as if I could step out of time without losing the ability to keep time from most meditation sessions my intentions may have been more passive. Before starting any session I would notice I have x amount of time to meditate before having some other action to attend to. Nirodha Samāpatti was no different. It was not a goal. I generally had no goals in meditation. Once something "new" was experienced I would try to see if it could be repeated and if there was a process to be able to experience it again and then I would move on. I had a Nirodha Samāpatti experience 7 times and moved on. I did not do nearly as much meditating after that because meditation seemed to be happening more automatically, continuous. I still gain insight 15 years later. I am not Buddhist, have never taken a meditation class or had a teacher, so a lot of the terminology is lost on me. After something like this and other strange first time occurences happened I generally had to resort to Buddhism dictionaries or forums to find out if this was normal as I had never heard of anything like it. At times I feel the beginnings of slipping into Nirodha Samāpatti and I move away from it. Not out of fear, but out of love for being present.
Somehow Shinzen had more to say about science than the trained scientists and about meditation than the nirodha meditator. It would be nice to experience this conversation between Nelson and the scientists that studied him without Shinzen's excessive and mostly unhelpful input.
I think Shinzen has great intentions and was loving the conversation, but he needs to train his social skills up a bit. I don’t believe he intends to be rude, but that's how it comes off.
@@william91786 I can't get into his head so I will never know his intentions, but I have taken science classes at the college level and my professors were nerdy phds who loved their subject matter, but they never went on and on reciting jargon and name dropping like Shinzen. I can't say for sure that he doesn't have good intentions, but it comes across as trying to show off rather than inform. I don't believe Shinzen has any formal science or math training so it actually comes across as overcompensation to me, like he is trying to bowl people over with this stuff. The science and math phds I have met in my life don't talk that way. I could be wrong, maybe it is just a social skills thing, but that's just my gut feeling. I do get the sense that Shinzen is legitimately smart and well read, but I think he also likes to show off and talk beyond his expertise.
shinzen seems cool and everything, but he just dominates the conversation too much and too many tangents. I wanted to hear what the other people had to say more.
I enjoyed the early part of the talk. Then it became all about what Shinzen Young thought. Defeated the purpose of having Delson there! And the researchers! I fast forwarded through it and he was still talking! I would love to hear this panel without him in it.
This was a wonderful interview panel. Shinzen's tangents into math stuff goes way beyond my interest, but having toughed through it all the points at the end are so interesting, and I also enjoy piggy backing on his enthusiasm of Delson's abilities. Would be nice if he could get to the point a little faster though, but I think the panel was satisfied and enjoyed the collaboration, which is the most useful takeaway. It will be great to hear the follow up to the initial papers interpreting the data.
For those giving Shinzen a hard time in these comments, something to consider: - He's around 80 years old now. He will probably be even more prone to going off on enthusiatic tangents at 90. It's part of getting old. - I'm sure Shinzen would not have been offended whatsoever if Steve moderated him. In fact, I've seen this in recent Zoom AMAs with Shinzen. He is glad to be reminded in such instances and even acknowledges it. - As always, Shinzen is bursting with enthusiam, the very enthusiasm that has driven him to make highly valued contributions to the world of meditation and spirituality.
@@earthy7898 It's an agreeable comment. Unfortunately the situation does not exactly instill confidence as to the results we can expect from following what he teaches others. : / Not exactly the idealized image of a Zen master.
@@ultraclaveshermetium5709 most teachers disappoint if you expect them to have perfect personalities. It seems it just doesn't work like that. The list of examples would be very long and include teachers even more senior to Shinzen.
I agree, I found the comments somewhat insulting and unfortunate, but I do have to agree after having listened to the video that Shinzen goes on too long into unrelated tangents when I really was interested in what the others were saying.
Great interview. Also, having seen the previous interviews with Delson I'm glad that Shinzen tried to change things up so as to not end up retreading the same ground that was already in the previous Guru Viking interviews with Delson.
In light of the many negative comments about Shinzen's interjections and extemporizing, I'd bear in mind that he really loves this stuff. I've learnt a lot from him and also (or even more so) from the experience of having been triggered by his going on long tangents. For him, math seems to be the equivalent of a small child's favourite toy--it becomes the alpha-and-omega of the world for him. That said, I think the conversation would have greatly benefitted from a tighter agenda to keep the (huge!) topic manageable and somewhat contained. When a panelist jumps the fence to botanize, chase lizards, or collect rocks, remind them gently but firmly to stay on the trail.
I'm extremely skeptical that LLMs (large language models that Shinzen was referring to) can somehow fulfil the role of digital Arhat. These are language models, after all. All they do is semantic construction. Realisation of Buddha nature sits completely outside the temporal/semantic realm. An LLM is nested tables of words and probability matrices which compute which word is most fitting to regurgitate next. In a sense they are the problem to which Buddhism provides the solution. They can no more guide people towards realisation, than any other manifestation of the ego.
Good interview and information. Delson is remarkable with his abilities. And contrary to many, I liked Shinzen's enthusiasm for Delson's abilities and attainments. Also, like how Shinzen has no qualms about using the Buddhist terminology along with historical record, and that Delson does similar. As opposed to the neuro doctors redefining what the ancients have already discovered, to their terms.
No Shinzen on the next episode with this group if possible please lol. It's too bad he really shoots the effectiveness of his notoriety in the foot by taking up so much time interrupting with unhelpful asides
Best idea -get the wholesome folks who’ve trained the mind to influence science. He’s right they aren’t separate like we might think. Curiosity. Connectivity which meditators know, now link it w science. A merging is going on-thank you -each of you
Thank you, Dr Laukkonen, for keeping this discussion real. I saw that you attempted to explain that there was a lot of research and evaluation of the information collected before having a scientific opinion of what was being called NS and what was really happening " under the hood". I think your paper was clear on the Conclusions. I've heard that some years ago there were some studies done with Tibetan monks. In medicine there has been research done on "suspended animation", that has a link to body temperature. Something observed in your study. Please continue your research. A deeper understanding of the "cessation" fenomena, be it induced or spontaneous, will be very helpful for those interested in higher human functioning.
Shinzen’s seemingly arrogant and self-promoting behavior during this interview is sad and very disrespectful to the guest, purpose of the topic discussed, and especially the host who is incredibly patient, polite and accommodating. I don’t like to be harsh but it is amazing how little self-awareness he had due to his burning desire to be seen and heard a certain way.
Though I admit there could have been a better moderation done and monologues could have been avoided, I am awesomely happy to see that such seminal research is being discussed here on UA-cam. And thank you for that🙏
I’m 37 minutes in and I don’t see what everyone is complaining about with Shinzen. He’s totally letting people talk. The first guy talked for 10 minutes, shinzen asked a couple minute question about whether there’s any math behind the model, and then Delson went on his story. Then Shinzen just commented on that. I still have yet to watch the rest so maybe I just have yet to see.
Great to hear Delson Armstrong talk with scientists regarding this subject matter. I echo the sentiments regarding Shinzen Young though- felt like he hijacked and interrupted his way through the whole thing without keeping on track. Perhaps for a talk on AI he would be a good speaker but he wasn’t for this one unfortunately.
@@moonmissy Yeah like I get the concept, train AI with some sort of Dhamma model but he comes off very hubristic with conclusions that he has drawn from just using ChatGPT not an actual AGI, if that ever even arrives. The problem is we do not even fully understand some of the behavior that LLMs are showing now, let alone AGI. To think you can just feed the AGI Dhamma and it will somehow end up a benevolent enlightened Deva straight out of the suttas sounds ever so naive.
If it was possible and not ethically as dubious as it sounds then it would be great. At least in potential, everyone could have access to tailored teaching. In practice though, it’ll just be another toy for the hoypaloy and rich clowns to play with. It will probably be a subscription service monetised at high rates with lots of extras for equipment and gadgets to work.
I have a note about the excitement about arahant ai: if we have been reincarnating on earth for eons, then surely such technology had already been developed in the past, and benefited us in such a way that we had achieved liberation, which is not the case since we are still here getting excited about this AI. Can we conclude that this AI will probably not play a big role in the path to enlightenment and that our desire to develop mindfulness is more important?
Questions I was hoping to have had answered in this episode. -From Dr. Laukkonen: - - Do the classical definitions align with what the data actually show. - - They discussed brainwaves, Dr. Laukkonen could've described the different types of brainwaves and what they mean in relation to daily life, cognition, and our experience of self. The crew here assumed we all had an understanding of brainwaves. - - - - Further, has prior research shown significant shifts in different types of brainwaves in jhana states, for example. Do meditators have different brainwave patterns in response to stressors, etc. - - How does this state differ from deep sleep -From Delson I would've liked to hear: - - Why is nirodha samapatti useful (to me it does not sound like a useful state to be in) - - Necessity of achieving this state for path attainment.
The question at 1:43:02 about induced “enlightenment “: it was suggested that if one reaches stream entry, for example, one can do so through hard practice or “induced.” Although the phenomenology will be the same, only those who reach it via meditation somehow have a full transformation of the brain. Just wanted to suggest that perhaps the phenomenological experience itself leads to transformation, regardless of how one attains that experience. This will open the door to enlightenment in a pill! But that’s the consequence of dealing in the material world….
@Shinzen please watch this and witness how many times you interrupt someone mid thought and how that interruption completely destroys the normal flow of conversation. Your social skills need a tune up.
Can't help but echo the comments about Shinzen. He completely derailed the conversation and made it all about showing off about all the complex math he supposedly knows. I was really looking forward to this conversation because I have a lot of time for Delson and was also interested to hear what Ruben had to say. Steve is unwilling or unable to enforce control on his guests and I respect that way of doing the podcast but he shouldn't have invited Shinzen because he always ends up just rambling on about himself.
A most fascinating discussion and so incredibly inspiring. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️😁🙏 I am curious as to why, such an obviously experienced and intelligent man such as Shinzen needs to use foul and coarse language to express himself. Not intending to be critical as this is the first I have seen or heard of this man. Is he a Buddhist? What about the fourth precept? It´s not cool and it caused me to consider whether this video should be shared in my page as a Buddhist monk focused on purity, including purity of of speech, nobility and striving to live according to precepts. He also dominated the entire video and personally, I wanted to hear more from the scientists and from Delson. The host, viking Guru was most gracious, sitting silently throughout.
Guru Viking is the expert in these matters and even though he doesn't at all look like Bhikkhu Analayo he did an excellent stand in and pushed Daniel Ingram for answer. Like I said in the Dhamma Wheel Blog, one move is: -under the influence of the devas a new and improved dhamma was given like the abhidharma. They can be Charismatic Suttavadins. This already works for the Charismatic Christians and The Urantia Book did this as well as the golden plates of. Joseph Smith. I gave this video a thumbs up for learning by mistakes, however, Guru Viking will never look like Bhikkhu Analayo! ~Sarahaa at Dhamma Wheel is still doing penance for 7 days for "Persistent posting of pointless material" until Dec 14, 2023 11:12 pm .
and this connection is good to know- Bhante Punnaji-Bhante Vimalaramsi-David N. Snyder, Ph.D., Global, Administrators, Moderators. etc., etc., and so forth! Reminds me of Guru devotion or hive mind.
I found this discussion underwhelming. I've read the paper that was briefly mentioned at the start and felt that this conversation had some real potential for a focused and rigorous discussion about what the phenomenon of nirodha/cessation actually is and what valuable role, if any, it may have in contemplative practice. Such discussion imo should include some nuts-and-bolts questioning about how someone can stay in that state without eating, drinking, and, well, excreting for 6 or 7 days. What's the purpose of going into this state? Will the person who emerges be more or less of a jerk? If it's so rare and difficult to attain, why go after it? How does it differ from, say, being put under by a drug like propofol (according to the paper, there appears to be some overlap in changes of brain activity between extended cessation and this medication)? What might be the side effects? These are very basic questions, but they are the sorts of questions any scientist worth their salt should be asking (and asking again and again) and dwelling on for a good bit. Instead, the discussion went from a brief self-report to "this is fantastic, and here's how AI can help" (I'm aware that I'm caricaturing this because there was some discussion about phenomenology and how it relates to fundamental Buddhist tenets that was interesting but woefully short and superficial). Using an (admittedly imperfect) McGilchrist perspective, I'd say the discussion was quickly hijacked by a left hemispheric stance of unbridled (but unwarranted) optimism, obsession with mechanism and abstraction (like byzantine mathematical models), and naive belief in science and technology. Scientists will likely be put off by the lack or rigorous interrogation and contemplatives by the mechanizing and modelling of meditative experience, which is probably one of the most unique features of creatures embedded in the moist and messy yet most mysterious experience we call life.
Hi Steve! Great show as usual. Big fan of your work bringing various practitioners, scholars and practitioner-scholars together. You and your guests have impacted my practice and learnings for the better. And yes, please do try to interview Jeffery Martin! For those who don't know, he is a scholar with a specific focus of academia on awakening in it's varrious forms; and claims to have significant attainment himself. Much thanks for your ongoing contribution to bettering the world with getting good quality, diverse content on the net. 🙇♂🌈
I came across this conversation because I was looking for some recent talks of Shinzen. I am surprised how he is obsessed with need of "scientific" and "mathematical" explanation of enlighment. His remarks are very creative.He fluently combines several distant domains but I afraid that some of the combinations are based on free associations between concepts. Hist talk resambles some postmodern philosophers that decided to deconstruct scientific jargon.
It’s unfortunate that Shinzen doesn’t understand mathematical modeling well enough to explain it so that anyone can understand. In the middle of a fascinating discussion, we get 20 minutes of jargon diarrhea starting at 1:11:33. This is a forum for high-level concepts, not Shinzen trying to seem smart by spouting a list of mathematical formulas. If I wanted that, I’d read the relevant publications. I got nothing intelligible from Shinzen.
Like everyone else I came here to comment on Shinzen and like all the comments that criticized and didn't apologize for him. I also don't think it was respectful or skillful on the part of the other guests, as some have suggested, to let him interrupt and hijack over and over like that; respectful would be to interrupt back and be like "excuse me, I was talking." He even went to the length of extremely rudely holding the floor ***3 Times*** to deal with his ringing phone which he obviously wanted to make a show of the fact that someone famous named peter was calling him. Peter Singer? Peter Gabriel? Peter Jackson? I don't give a shit and no one else does either. Unless it's Peter Dinklage then nm that's pretty badass & respek.
I know i didn't have to listen I started it and abandoned it once but then listened for my friend and my "Podcast Club" so we could discuss it. (She also was disgusted by Shinzen)
1:04:50 Delson describes the perfected state beyond the taints where the "seen is only the seen" etc. My question is how that relates to the cessation of consciousness. Is there any "seeing" at all happening during cessation? Or does that cessation induce this taintless clarity of vision after one emerges from it? If the clarity of vision happens after the attainment and re-emergence from cessation what experience led to that shift of vision? How could a mind undergo a change to a new way of seeing life through an absence of consciousness? Or is it just the shock of having been unaware of 6 days passing that does it? Ie., the confirmation that conscience totally stopped with no memory of the time that passed? If that is the transformative experience here, could we get the same realization through a deep dreamless sleep, if we didn't normalize this nightly experience of cessation? Questions I would love to ask Delson.
If I may share... not all cessations lead to Nibanna.. what is required here is the application of wisdom, so these things dont happen to us, like on autopilot, no one gifts us Nibanna, not even The Buddha...we have to apply wisdom, clear seeing, yoniso manisakara, right attention etc.... for example.. The 5 aggregates are ALWAYS annata, they're impersonal ALWAYS, not only when we come out of cessation, but the clarity gained in these states enables the clear seeing easier...
@@anthonybrown1417 "the clarity gained in these states enables the clear seeing easier" --it is this I am perplexed about. How could a state characterized by the cessation of perception and feeling deliver some type of "clarity?" Is there a type of clarity that does not involve any type of perception or feeling? Remember that perception includes mental cognition (thoughts). This is the question that someone who claims to have realized that wisdom that you mention, through the cessation of perception and feeling, would be able to answer I am guessing. And this would give the rest of us solid motivation for going through the trouble of reaching such a purified state of samadhi.
What is Chelsey Fasano doing in this mansplaining session and how is Dr. Ruben Laukonnen related to the topic of this monologue series, which is "Shinzen Young's musings"? As far as I understand, nirodha experience of Delson Armstrong is akin to some junkie tied to bed. Or being blacked out after being hit hard with a baseball bat. Is this the cessation of suffering? Really?
It would be wonderful to have the other guests back, perhaps with Shinzen just listening. Not to exclude Shinzen, but I walked away from this conversation very unclear on their perspectives on the topic.
For me I still go through sensory experience. It's just that when self and world arise again this is just memory working again. To me it felt as if I was just happening but because I let go so fast there is nothing to remember and when I arise a big blank space of nothing worth remembering exists. That's how I explained it to myself. Also I did it in motion never tried doing it still. Longest was 6 months give or take a month... gone. Noone I knew noticed. To them I just became a better version of myself since I too spoke of it to Noone but for a different reason. Usually when it used to happen alot though it would usually occur when I start working or doing chores. And it ends when I'm done. Kind of like with when people lose their keys. They threw it somewhere but can't remember doing it. But instead of not paying attention to the keys it's not paying attention to anything. That is it is not paying attention to the arising interaction of the senses to create the perception of self and world. An effortless doing one could say ones conditioned instincts take over. It is spontaneously arising from its past conditioning. And my conditioning was martial arts. So for me it evolved before the parts of the brain that create self and world. Those parts are new but powerful. Still underneath it all that is no state of hibernation. That is a state of extremely high activity. Without the need for a self or world to interrupt the process. The Japanese samurai considered attaining such a state a matter of life and death. Think it's called mushin. Without past or future self or world. Riding the wave of now. The formless activity of self expression. Lol hibernation sounds alot like ascetism. Like sloths. 😅 ua-cam.com/video/rXk-rYwcYno/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/GhT2XYQ5Yj0/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/luKVhuUsGMc/v-deo.html
The interesting connection to hibernation. It makes sense that animals hibernate due perhaps to their natural lack of attachment to the aggregates and self. We humans have to deconstruct the human programming to get there.
I think Shinzen Young should control his use of language - using profanities - the 'F' word is not a thing people 'on the path' like to hear - it is disturbing for people who are sensitive to the qualities of speech - 'right speech'.
its possible that Shinzen is seeing what we're missing. I personally see too many very recent studies and experiments that are coming out left and right and it's hard to keep up with. He's possibly trying to hint us at something.
I think there is a lot of potential for science and tech to contribute/integrate with well-being, but I think the point that was overlooked in this convo, due to little opportunity for others to speak, is the human element. Human element here really refers to Buddhist cosmology of the human realm. Science, in my opinion, has its limitations, deep meditation and spiritual practice on the other hand, does not, especially regarding rebirth, new existence. The convo generally turned to a more scientific take on human existence. I don't think there will ever be an 'easy fix' for putting people right ... it's a complex process at the level of mind. Can science/AI deeply change who we are? Through deep meditation, where one encounters mind, really, it is possible. Any attachment at these higher states of mind, hinders progress. Understanding/experiencing mind, or the primordial state of mind, is what can lead to experiencing Nibbana. I question whether an APP can achieve this.
I can just about see how connectivity, networks, and category theory might eventually be useful in the mathematical modelling of the EEG data, but the detour into the multiverse concept in quantum mechanics - which has no empirical support - seems gratuitous. I can’t for the life of me see how or why we get to AI alignment and Frobenius monoids. I would rather have heard more from Nelson on nirodha samāpatti.
Yeah, I agree with all the comments about leaving Shinzen OUT. Cheers for all of his contributions to modern dialog within Buddhist writers and orators... but he left me shaking my head thinking, this guy is knowledgeable yet full of ego and the need to be center stage. Give him his own episode and let him ramble. Leave him out of group conversations of this nature, please! ((*I was listening to this on Spotify and got so sick of hearimg Shinzen bogart the "conversation", interrupt Delson, spew his garble, and dominate something he appeared to have some pathetic need to dominate the whole episode, and sound like the all-knowing- master that i pulled this up on UA-cam to see what the comments are... AND to discover that this is the common thread in the comments! I am new to learning about Dhamma. I have been watching lots and lots od Dhamma teachers on UA-cam and liatening on Spotify. Delson Armstrong's meditation techniques and Dhamma talks have risen to the surface of what i am resonanting with.
Dharma Paths site. Who are the Suttavadins? 24 Views and not open yet, 9:42 est 12/09/23 It could take off like horse racing or lay dead in the blog-sphere or flounder around bound by TOS. "Three Coins in the Fountain"-which one will the fountain bless somewhere in the heart of Rome.
Shinzen not-so-Young ruined a potentially wonderful talk. I was skipping through his incoherent "wow this is deep bro"-gibberish only to realize he hijacked at least half of this gathering.
Who are the Suttavadins? Waiting for Dharma Paths site to approve my post for discussion. Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:59 am This post is not visible to other users until it has been approved by a moderator. 00:07:42 Who are the Suttavadins? 00:19:28 CLAIM: Bhante Vimalaramsi is an Anāgāmi 00:33:45 CLAIM: A TWIM Anāgāmi Is a Genuine Anāgāmi 00:37:29 CLAIM: Bhante Vimalaramsi’s grasp of language is correct and etc, etc and so forth........ ~handle- Sarahaa I
TY! Wonderful moderating Steve and creation of a space for a series of fabulous conversations hopefully to keep coming. So many angles to explore on this topic that they couldn’t possibly be covered in just one session. Loved this mixed group 😊 cultural, practice, science and the enthusiastic refreshing non-bypassing of our worlds greatest challenges to come.
To the extent that so much meditation, mindfulness and spirituality teaching is juat so much ungrounded word salad i woild agree that an LLM might do no worse.
Keep Shinzen I am not a geek or math nerd but the connection between AI science, consciousness and meditation, clarifies Pattica Samupada into a current practical application ❤
Who are the Suttavadins? The dark truth What is Dhamma Wheel spins and falls into the abyss of no bliss where mara calls and Good dhamma falls ~Sarahaa the Archer
How unaware can a “dharma teacher” be? Shinzen is insufferable. How many times is he going to interrupt others and control the conversation with his goofy digressions? Typical western “teacher”. Talks way too much (inversely proportional with his knowledge). Guru Viking: I love what you do in general, but in these situations you might consider interjecting so as to set limits on a guest who is clearly unable to sustain a balanced dialogue and who’s ego hijacked the conversation.
Any scientific evidence of zero heartbeat while Delson is in Nirodha? Flat lining the brain scan has been around for years. It my understanding that in nirodha that the heartbeat stops.
First, this guy Delson is just on an unsuspecting ego trip where anatta hadn’t occurred. The egoic self remains as the experiencer and doer. Shinzen is lost in intellectual “thinking” centered around a fictional self-entity.
Nobody expects the dhamma Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear... fear and surprise... Our two weapons are fear and surprise... 12 fold kamma reckoning and it's fruit ...._- kamma to be experienced here and now and all the rest- Our three weapons are moral shame and moral dread and patience... and an almost fanatical devotion to the suttas... Our four... no... Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, shame... I'll come in again ~Saraha Controversy at Dhamma Wheel over Dhamma Wheel. WHO are the Suttavadins? the dark truth ~Sarahaa the Archer
I debated whether to leave this comment at the risk of coming across uncaring or unnecessarily harsh but getting through Shinzen's segments was...rough. I actually had to pause a few times, feeling second hand embarrassment, thinking - Oh dear!
I love what he has done for the dhamma community, and his ability to link distant ideas is his quirky talent, but I feel like the subject matter was nirodha, the paper, the science, Delson's sutta and experiential interpenetrations of what might be happening etc... meanwhile we've got Shinzen riffing on arguably completely unrelated subjects and two scientists sitting quietly for long stretches, unable to put the conversation back on track after another curveball on cosmic math, medieval Christianity or how many networks might be in parallel universes etc. While his passion and joy of nerding out are infectious, I'm not sure if it benefits the conversation of this kind. Sometimes it's ok to discuss the subject at hand as is - dhamma doesn't need wild "this is deep" takes.
Judging from the comments, some listeners thought themselves as lacking and unable to comprehend some of these remarks. Meanwhile quite often they aren't much more than "dude, what if there's a universe inside every atom" speculations you'd exchange with your friend over beer.
Thank gou Steve for creating this platform. Just seeing the episode title made my day.
Fully agree. It became annoying! The title should have been ´Shinzen discussing blah, blah, blah.
'Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!'
I echo the same sentiments. More often than not he derailed and stopped a very well grounded and beautiful flow between Delson and Reuben which I wanted to hear more about to areas which were airy fairy and difficult to understand.
Dear Guru Viking. I think you really dropped the ball in this interview!!! Surely part of your function as a host is to moderate and invite guests who have given you their time to do a little more than to sit there like lemons with ears bleeding from Shinzen's merciless diarrhoea. He may do it with a smile but he was very unkind in this interview. It seemed like you just left them unprotected to fight for a moment of communication. I do really love your channel and your interview style as a whole and I am so grateful for the content you put out. If this was the first experience I had of your channel I wouldn't have come back.
Wish I could’ve heard Delson speak more rather than constantly being interrupted
Was not a fan of Szinzen Young before this interview, and became even less so after it.
Still a big fan of Guru Viking for his work, Thanks Steve.
hes aids and the his prescience impairs progress in addition to attracting the superficial among scientists
I was going to make a comment about Shinzen's need for a network upgrade that includes boundaries but I'm way late to that party. More proof that success in meditation bears little connection to self awareness, other awareness, and general human decency. With that in mind, I learned a ton. Grateful to have suffered through.
He was not listening and seemed to want to show his knowledge and intellect (centered around himself), clearly the opposite of the path of meditation. Would have loved to hear more from Delson and Ruben. In many instances he interrupted and derailed a very grounded and beautiful flow.
In the 9 months since I wrote that it has become a central feature of my understanding of how meditation works and what it does. I actively taught for 10 years and had 1000 students in 6 week sessions during that time. That Shinzen, who I love, was completely self-absorbed in something as simple as a conversation with peers tells us that meditation makes not a dollop of difference in the operating psychology of the meditator. In fact, he was so lost in his own bullshit, frequently arrogant, that I'll argue it tells us that meditation turns you into a self-absorbed twit. I've seen it hundreds of times but when an enlightened one gives you a public glimpse it contextualizes all the others. Of all the comical things I just went to his Wikipedia page and found this: "An irritable child and poor student." In this video he's the same guy, 70 years later. So much for enlightenment practice. And yet I love him anyway. Grateful for all the gifts he gave me.
Great interview, very interesting, except for Shinzen's blizzard of interruptions. He has deep knowledge, and lot to say, but cannot wait his turn to say it. He does the same thing, every time.
Steve I love your work but in this case I think you could have done a better job moderating. Shinzen dominated the conversation with terminology that I'm pretty sure not a single person in your audience will understand. It's great that Shinzen has this knowledge but if he can't put it into layman's terms it just serves to act as a distraction. Cheers
This video is beginning to make the rounds in AI circles because of those comments. I found that section very interesting. Yes, it's terminology that is for too complicated, but it was only a few minutes
Awesome ❤ Consciousness athletes unite
Love you buddy
I would like to congratulate the panel on their equanimity/poise in the presence of someone who seemed oblivious to who was in their presence.
I just do not align with Shinzen. Every interview I’ve ever seen with him I’ve been reminded of people I’ve known who just are not able to flow with others and often when they speak I think “What?” Very clunky. I think Michael Taft helped him more than just a little with his book.
Shinzen does tend to rabbit hole and I'm sure Michael Taft had to do some hard core editing. But, you just have to listen to the Science of Enlightenment audiobook(which came first and isn't a reading of the book), or one of Shinzen's dharma talks to know that he doesn't always or didn't used to rabbit hole as much.
My god Shinzen Young loves the sound of his own voice. This conversation would have been greatly inproved by his absence
He’s the perfect illustration of what Buddhadasa called a “white darkness,” which is when so-called knowledge darkens the mind like a hall of mirrors. He derailed the whole conversation and interrupted every other speaker each time they spoke, showing a complete absence of free will due to a servitude to the algorithms of thought bubbling through his mind.
~do you have a sutta for that?
~ one of my favorites: "Ariyamagga Sutta: The Noble Path"-"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma"
"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result?
"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result?
"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result?
AN 4.235 at Access to Insight.
Oh man I was so into hearing what Delson was saying at 1:11:10 when Shinzen abruptly interrupted so abrasively and derailed the conversation. The frustration of everyone else in the conversation is palpable. It is as if his ego is invested in moderating the conversation and contextualizing it for the muggle scientists that he cannot allow a conversation to take place without him (Shinzen) being the ringleader. More Delson, less Shinzen. Why is he even here? It isn't about him. Why let him tag along? Out of charity, it seems? I had to stop watching soon after that because I just am not interested in what Shinzen has to say about his off topic interests. I want to hear about Delson's nirodha, not AI arhats which AI doesn't even have the Buddha Nature.
Does an AI arhat have Buddha Nature? Mu. Does an human arhat have Buddha Nature? Mu.
@@Vogelruf good point. but we know that AI arhats are presently still a bad joke. Mud Butter for our enlightenment toast. Free energy enlightenment, let me just take this phone call. What kind of information organization system is fart world when described through the lens of set theory? Can this we correlate with Brunism? Can we model how two cheeks separate the middle inner? That's a concept of action that we could be giving a reified semblance of existence, to suggest the possibility of seeing into a mathematical model of computer gimmickry simulating the girlfriend experience. This can be compared with Buddhism, I suppose. But there's no real action there, since modernized Buddhism might involve two humans touching reality instead of reaching for an abstraction mediated through a computer model of ideas about reality. We know this.
I couldn't finish the episode in one go, having to pause after each of Shinzen's wild detours. The long silences during which other panelists charitably stay quiet and listen were palpable - ouch.
It was unbelievably frustrating.
Its not charity its respect
Shinzen is so smart that when he starts talking I realize how stupid I am. But even as a fool I know when to let others speak and not steal the show all the time. I learned one thing from this conversation - I was and will remain in this incarnation a simple meditation practitioner. It makes me a little better and more compassionate person and allows me to bear the difficulties of life a little easier. Sometimes I also have spiritual experiences. Maybe I should settle for that.
You are not stupid. Shinzen talks loud but says nothing. And apparently he cannot control his mind at all.
thank you guru, very interesting. shinzen should try to limit his math self-talk, it kills the conversation. he always does that, starts talking about shit few people understand and nobody has the courage to stop him...😂
Yeah, He's such a nice guy, nobody wants to be mean to him. He seems unable to wait his turn. Just busts in in the middle of someone else's sentence with his random thoughts . Very distracting. There should be a "raise your hand" rule about interruptions, with your mike muted otherwise.
Shinzen, if you are reading this, try to control yourself and respect the other participants by not breaking their train of thought with your blizzard of interruptions.
Okay, I have been the bad guy. You're welcome. It was difficult.
Cheers.
@@tomtillman Totally agree, please, Steve, take a look at this (:
@@pineal3576 agreed on the raise your hand rule, let's please incorporate that.
@Guru VIking
Had enough of Shinzen in the first 40 minutes. Came here to see if I was alone. Very much not. Although, as a meditation practice, it's great to listen to him and see how it affects me.
Shinzen logic at it's finest (1:30:25) “We solve the dana problem in Buddhism. How do we get paid for teaching? You want to be a professional teacher of mindfulness? How are you going to make a living? Well, you have to charge. Now with the new AI, we don’t have to charge for this expertise. We just replicate the information.”
Huh?
When Shinzen refers to dark retreat I am pretty sure that he is referring to the Tibetan Dzogchen tradition. I have never heard of a dark retreat lasting 3 years, 3 months, and 3 days. The dark retreat traditionally lasts for 49 days, corresponding to the bardos between death and rebirth which is said to last 49 days. I think he is confusing it with the Kagyu tradition of the 3 year, 3 month, and 3 day retreat meditating on the 6 yogas, which is entirely different than the dark retreat. I don't think any of these is relevant to the Nirodha Samapati.
Yeah, but flexing vocabulary "shows our credibility" lol. Gotta reify that concept of self being instead of doin actions that display wisdom.
@@ultraclaveshermetium5709 yeah it seems he just wants people to think he knows what he's talking about.
Excruciatingly painful - an amazing group of very illustrious, amazing people, with amazing accomplishments, and Shinzen Young dominates the whole dialogue, hijacks it for his own purposes ... such a pity in the company of the people present - very rude and disrespectful. I think Shinzen Young should go back to basic skills before considering how AI can change the world ... such a pity this happened.
the people here in the comments tastelessly dissing Shinzen's totally relevant and fascinating contributions, sadly, have no sense of respect and lack perspective..
I didn't mind at all, people seriously need to chill
What an incredible group you pulled together! Thank you so much for this conversation 🙂!!!
proper study of this is done by real scientists in the field by monitoring the precise neural correlates for voluntary attention, concentration, sense data activation, etcetc, not useless crap like tracking brain wave which is almost worthless and a child can do with $100 equipment.
this is the case both for authentic practitioners being measured in shamata so far, as well as dead practitioners remaining in tukdam as was the case in taipei 2020 when i was there. the body did not decompose, the body remained supple and flexible and sweet smelling, etcetc for over 30 days post clinical death. a team of neuroscientists were on hand at that time to collect bizarre data that of course a physicalist can make no sense of, such as spontaneous brain activity activation weeks post clinical death to give a minor example. this was the first time a practitioner was tested scientifically in the west i believe the russians were already given this opportunity several years ago, since theyre less insane in their religious worship in church physicalism.
also alan wallace's main dzogchen lama gyatrul rinpoche recently entered a similar state post clinical death and it has been observed reported and documented that his body has already begun undergoing the shrinking process that successful dzogchen practitioners display during the death process post clinical death. whether his body shrinks, disappears leaving only nails and hair behind, or accomplishes full transference disappearing entirely and able to reappear as a full buddhahood display remains to be seen from the latest reports.
carry on with your silly crap in the meantime.
@@5piles eat a pooh pooh pill to calm your pecks & piles.
Very interesting conversation about Delson Armstrong's extraordinary meditative experiences. I'm looking forward to the sequel where I hope we'll hear more from Delson Armstrong about how his meditation training provides more (or less) than what AI offers when providing cessation experiences; and from Dr. Laukonnen on any concerns about the use of AI for meditative experiences.
the kid is stuck on the 4th stage of the 9 stages of shamata called subtle dullness for long periods of time and doesnt even know it. poor guy needs a real education and should get in contact with alan wallace asap.
@@5piles glad you've got it all figured out, kid. poor guy, you must have a lot of bodhisattvaing to do moderating this here comments section on youtube. quite the workload.
Yes, Delson's abilities are quite accomplished. He's the real deal. Would like to see more too.
Truly Fascinating!! Thank you, Steve for this continuing series!
I would like to know from delson what the benefit is of going into nirodha samapatti. Is there greater benefit from 6 days compared to a few seconds. Is there benefit from doing it often. Is the benefit mainly from observing coming back online and seeing dependant origination, or is the benefit from the time itself. Are you concious (for lack of a better word) in any way during that time and have some memory of it when you come out or not at all.
And yes i will have to agree with many others that i found shinzeng incredibly frustrating in this conversation . Now that we have had one with him on perhaps the next can be one without him so that others may speak.
It might be nice to do a live Q n A with the audience too.
Yes, I second this request. The benefits according to the suttas of nirodha samapatti are the highest, from my readings at least. Meaning complete destruction of the taints. It doesn't get better than that, I think. But I didn't hear this discussed much. Or maybe I missed it. Can nirodha samapatti happen without the complete destruction of the taints? That would be a question I have.
@@KilayaCiriello
@onelove7069 Speaking from direct experience, it does not necessarily remove all the taints. It also can be experienced without permanently uprooting the mechanism of self identification. One can have the recognition of anatta and still be sucked back into thought identification. It puts to rest forever any notion of separation and goes a long way toward becoming fearless and improved clarity. The point Delson made about being aware of consciouness going offline and coming back online in reverse is important. For me, it seemed to start in the visual cortex with some clicking sound and rapid movement that proceeded down the body towards the toes as something I can only describe as a whisper of a breath. It was felt like the lightest breeze. There is awareness of it coming back online from the toes towards the head in the same manner cell to cell. Being rolled and unrolled like a scroll is the best image I can give you. Even though I felt as if I could step out of time without losing the ability to keep time from most meditation sessions my intentions may have been more passive. Before starting any session I would notice I have x amount of time to meditate before having some other action to attend to. Nirodha Samāpatti was no different. It was not a goal. I generally had no goals in meditation. Once something "new" was experienced I would try to see if it could be repeated and if there was a process to be able to experience it again and then I would move on. I had a Nirodha Samāpatti experience 7 times and moved on. I did not do nearly as much meditating after that because meditation seemed to be happening more automatically, continuous. I still gain insight 15 years later. I am not Buddhist, have never taken a meditation class or had a teacher, so a lot of the terminology is lost on me. After something like this and other strange first time occurences happened I generally had to resort to Buddhism dictionaries or forums to find out if this was normal as I had never heard of anything like it. At times I feel the beginnings of slipping into Nirodha Samāpatti and I move away from it. Not out of fear, but out of love for being present.
Shinzen hijacked this conversation, should have been moderated better.
Totally!!! He thought he was the star of the show. He’s a pedantic attention hog.
Somehow Shinzen had more to say about science than the trained scientists and about meditation than the nirodha meditator. It would be nice to experience this conversation between Nelson and the scientists that studied him without Shinzen's excessive and mostly unhelpful input.
@@4everflow yeah but there's this thing called decorum.
@@ultraclaveshermetium5709 right, it was more about the how it was done and not being moderated very well and just going on and on.
I think Shinzen has great intentions and was loving the conversation, but he needs to train his social skills up a bit. I don’t believe he intends to be rude, but that's how it comes off.
@@william91786 I can't get into his head so I will never know his intentions, but I have taken science classes at the college level and my professors were nerdy phds who loved their subject matter, but they never went on and on reciting jargon and name dropping like Shinzen. I can't say for sure that he doesn't have good intentions, but it comes across as trying to show off rather than inform. I don't believe Shinzen has any formal science or math training so it actually comes across as overcompensation to me, like he is trying to bowl people over with this stuff. The science and math phds I have met in my life don't talk that way. I could be wrong, maybe it is just a social skills thing, but that's just my gut feeling. I do get the sense that Shinzen is legitimately smart and well read, but I think he also likes to show off and talk beyond his expertise.
@@默-c1r Yeah, we can only speculate on his intentions, but I think we can objectively say his communication skills show bad form.
Can we have a meeting with Delson and the dutch scientist
I would like to hear what they investigated and found
You should really get Donald Hoffman and Shinzen together to nerd out over Markov networks and consciousness! 😄
😂
I thought the same
Hard pass
Great conversation as usual and I want to hear more from Delson, Chelsea, Dr L... but it's way past time somebody told Shinzen.
Thank you James one of the best podcast I heard for a lo ng time..
shinzen seems cool and everything, but he just dominates the conversation too much and too many tangents. I wanted to hear what the other people had to say more.
I enjoyed the early part of the talk. Then it became all about what Shinzen Young thought. Defeated the purpose of having Delson there! And the researchers!
I fast forwarded through it and he was still talking!
I would love to hear this panel without him in it.
This was a wonderful interview panel. Shinzen's tangents into math stuff goes way beyond my interest, but having toughed through it all the points at the end are so interesting, and I also enjoy piggy backing on his enthusiasm of Delson's abilities. Would be nice if he could get to the point a little faster though, but I think the panel was satisfied and enjoyed the collaboration, which is the most useful takeaway. It will be great to hear the follow up to the initial papers interpreting the data.
For those giving Shinzen a hard time in these comments, something to consider:
- He's around 80 years old now. He will probably be even more prone to going off on enthusiatic tangents at 90. It's part of getting old.
- I'm sure Shinzen would not have been offended whatsoever if Steve moderated him. In fact, I've seen this in recent Zoom AMAs with Shinzen. He is glad to be reminded in such instances and even acknowledges it.
- As always, Shinzen is bursting with enthusiam, the very enthusiasm that has driven him to make highly valued contributions to the world of meditation and spirituality.
I agree with this comment. It's part of getting old. I don't think it has anything to do with ego.
@@earthy7898 It's an agreeable comment. Unfortunately the situation does not exactly instill confidence as to the results we can expect from following what he teaches others. : / Not exactly the idealized image of a Zen master.
@@ultraclaveshermetium5709 most teachers disappoint if you expect them to have perfect personalities. It seems it just doesn't work like that. The list of examples would be very long and include teachers even more senior to Shinzen.
I agree, I found the comments somewhat insulting and unfortunate, but I do have to agree after having listened to the video that Shinzen goes on too long into unrelated tangents when I really was interested in what the others were saying.
@@robmaric wabi sabi is perfect, but also can do quietude as much as lopsided.
Suck my tongue 😛😀
Steve brought the MVP's again!
Damn, I am so grateful! Many Many Thanks for what you do!!!!
Great interview. Also, having seen the previous interviews with Delson I'm glad that Shinzen tried to change things up so as to not end up retreading the same ground that was already in the previous Guru Viking interviews with Delson.
In light of the many negative comments about Shinzen's interjections and extemporizing, I'd bear in mind that he really loves this stuff. I've learnt a lot from him and also (or even more so) from the experience of having been triggered by his going on long tangents. For him, math seems to be the equivalent of a small child's favourite toy--it becomes the alpha-and-omega of the world for him.
That said, I think the conversation would have greatly benefitted from a tighter agenda to keep the (huge!) topic manageable and somewhat contained. When a panelist jumps the fence to botanize, chase lizards, or collect rocks, remind them gently but firmly to stay on the trail.
I'm extremely skeptical that LLMs (large language models that Shinzen was referring to) can somehow fulfil the role of digital Arhat. These are language models, after all. All they do is semantic construction. Realisation of Buddha nature sits completely outside the temporal/semantic realm. An LLM is nested tables of words and probability matrices which compute which word is most fitting to regurgitate next. In a sense they are the problem to which Buddhism provides the solution. They can no more guide people towards realisation, than any other manifestation of the ego.
Good interview and information. Delson is remarkable with his abilities. And contrary to many, I liked Shinzen's enthusiasm for Delson's abilities and attainments. Also, like how Shinzen has no qualms about using the Buddhist terminology along with historical record, and that Delson does similar. As opposed to the neuro doctors redefining what the ancients have already discovered, to their terms.
Human tendency is, a carpenter with a hammer sees nails.
Suggest Shinzen consider switching to decaf
No Shinzen on the next episode with this group if possible please lol. It's too bad he really shoots the effectiveness of his notoriety in the foot by taking up so much time interrupting with unhelpful asides
He is a total charlatan. See my comment below.
Best idea -get the wholesome folks who’ve trained the mind to influence science. He’s right they aren’t separate like we might think. Curiosity. Connectivity which meditators know, now link it w science. A merging is going on-thank you -each of you
Thank you, Dr Laukkonen, for keeping this discussion real. I saw that you attempted to explain that there was a lot of research and evaluation of the information collected before having a scientific opinion of what was being called NS and what was really happening " under the hood". I think your paper was clear on the Conclusions. I've heard that some years ago there were some studies done with Tibetan monks. In medicine there has been research done on "suspended animation", that has a link to body temperature. Something observed in your study.
Please continue your research. A deeper understanding of the "cessation" fenomena, be it induced or spontaneous, will be very helpful for those interested in higher human functioning.
Shinzen’s seemingly arrogant and self-promoting behavior during this interview is sad and very disrespectful to the guest, purpose of the topic discussed, and especially the host who is incredibly patient, polite and accommodating. I don’t like to be harsh but it is amazing how little self-awareness he had due to his burning desire to be seen and heard a certain way.
Though I admit there could have been a better moderation done and monologues could have been avoided, I am awesomely happy to see that such seminal research is being discussed here on UA-cam. And thank you for that🙏
Very stimulating discussion thanks!
I have been looking for a discussion on this subject (with people who can do it) for a long long time. I feel privileged to have access to this 🙏
Ayo Steve, moderate your boy Shinzen
Very good discussion
I can achieve this state but its not easy for me. I can only stay in it for 30 seconds or less. Its very unique experience.
I’m 37 minutes in and I don’t see what everyone is complaining about with Shinzen. He’s totally letting people talk. The first guy talked for 10 minutes, shinzen asked a couple minute question about whether there’s any math behind the model, and then Delson went on his story. Then Shinzen just commented on that. I still have yet to watch the rest so maybe I just have yet to see.
We now need 2, TWO Debates, one with DSMC and one at Dhamma Wheel only now all about Dhamma Wheel. What a surprise.
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Edit: Just love Shinzen's nerdiness and glee when he explains the incredible details in the things Delson says @38:00
Great to hear Delson Armstrong talk with scientists regarding this subject matter.
I echo the sentiments regarding Shinzen Young though- felt like he hijacked and interrupted his way through the whole thing without keeping on track. Perhaps for a talk on AI he would be a good speaker but he wasn’t for this one unfortunately.
Oh god.. not AI Arahants, sounds absolutely horrifying
It's Shinzen being totally off-the-"down here on earth" path and on the nerdy path of "head in the clouds."
@@moonmissy Yeah like I get the concept, train AI with some sort of Dhamma model but he comes off very hubristic with conclusions that he has drawn from just using ChatGPT not an actual AGI, if that ever even arrives.
The problem is we do not even fully understand some of the behavior that LLMs are showing now, let alone AGI. To think you can just feed the AGI Dhamma and it will somehow end up a benevolent enlightened Deva straight out of the suttas sounds ever so naive.
If it was possible and not ethically as dubious as it sounds then it would be great. At least in potential, everyone could have access to tailored teaching. In practice though, it’ll just be another toy for the hoypaloy and rich clowns to play with. It will probably be a subscription service monetised at high rates with lots of extras for equipment and gadgets to work.
I have a note about the excitement about arahant ai: if we have been reincarnating on earth for eons, then surely such technology had already been developed in the past, and benefited us in such a way that we had achieved liberation, which is not the case since we are still here getting excited about this AI.
Can we conclude that this AI will probably not play a big role in the path to enlightenment and that our desire to develop mindfulness is more important?
Questions I was hoping to have had answered in this episode.
-From Dr. Laukkonen:
- - Do the classical definitions align with what the data actually show.
- - They discussed brainwaves, Dr. Laukkonen could've described the different types of brainwaves and what they mean in relation to daily life, cognition, and our experience of self. The crew here assumed we all had an understanding of brainwaves.
- - - - Further, has prior research shown significant shifts in different types of brainwaves in jhana states, for example. Do meditators have different brainwave patterns in response to stressors, etc.
- - How does this state differ from deep sleep
-From Delson I would've liked to hear:
- - Why is nirodha samapatti useful (to me it does not sound like a useful state to be in)
- - Necessity of achieving this state for path attainment.
I sure hope Shinzen and John Vervaeke can talk soon.
The question at 1:43:02 about induced “enlightenment “: it was suggested that if one reaches stream entry, for example, one can do so through hard practice or “induced.” Although the phenomenology will be the same, only those who reach it via meditation somehow have a full transformation of the brain.
Just wanted to suggest that perhaps the phenomenological experience itself leads to transformation, regardless of how one attains that experience.
This will open the door to enlightenment in a pill! But that’s the consequence of dealing in the material world….
@Shinzen please watch this and witness how many times you interrupt someone mid thought and how that interruption completely destroys the normal flow of conversation. Your social skills need a tune up.
Great episode. Great show. Methinks Shinzen would be best of buds with Klaus Schwab and NYH
Can't help but echo the comments about Shinzen. He completely derailed the conversation and made it all about showing off about all the complex math he supposedly knows. I was really looking forward to this conversation because I have a lot of time for Delson and was also interested to hear what Ruben had to say. Steve is unwilling or unable to enforce control on his guests and I respect that way of doing the podcast but he shouldn't have invited Shinzen because he always ends up just rambling on about himself.
A most fascinating discussion and so incredibly inspiring. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️😁🙏 I am curious as to why, such an obviously experienced and intelligent man such as Shinzen needs to use foul and coarse language to express himself. Not intending to be critical as this is the first I have seen or heard of this man. Is he a Buddhist? What about the fourth precept? It´s not cool and it caused me to consider whether this video should be shared in my page as a Buddhist monk focused on purity, including purity of of speech, nobility and striving to live according to precepts. He also dominated the entire video and personally, I wanted to hear more from the scientists and from Delson. The host, viking Guru was most gracious, sitting silently throughout.
~ it's past time for higher criticism of the mind!
Guru Viking is the expert in these matters and even though he doesn't at all look like Bhikkhu Analayo he did an excellent stand in and pushed Daniel Ingram for answer.
Like I said in the Dhamma Wheel Blog, one move is: -under the influence of the devas a new and improved dhamma was given like the abhidharma. They can be Charismatic Suttavadins. This already works for the Charismatic Christians and The Urantia Book did this as well as the golden plates of. Joseph Smith. I gave this video a thumbs up for learning by mistakes, however, Guru Viking will never look like Bhikkhu Analayo!
~Sarahaa at Dhamma Wheel is still doing penance for 7 days for "Persistent posting of pointless material" until Dec 14, 2023 11:12 pm .
and this connection is good to know- Bhante Punnaji-Bhante Vimalaramsi-David N. Snyder, Ph.D., Global, Administrators, Moderators. etc., etc., and so forth!
Reminds me of Guru devotion or hive mind.
Funny to see the comments getting their jimmies rustled by Shinzen. I thought yall were advanced meditators in here. 😂
Not sure what show you watched, but Shinzen took up way too much airspace.
I found this discussion underwhelming. I've read the paper that was briefly mentioned at the start and felt that this conversation had some real potential for a focused and rigorous discussion about what the phenomenon of nirodha/cessation actually is and what valuable role, if any, it may have in contemplative practice. Such discussion imo should include some nuts-and-bolts questioning about how someone can stay in that state without eating, drinking, and, well, excreting for 6 or 7 days. What's the purpose of going into this state? Will the person who emerges be more or less of a jerk? If it's so rare and difficult to attain, why go after it? How does it differ from, say, being put under by a drug like propofol (according to the paper, there appears to be some overlap in changes of brain activity between extended cessation and this medication)? What might be the side effects?
These are very basic questions, but they are the sorts of questions any scientist worth their salt should be asking (and asking again and again) and dwelling on for a good bit. Instead, the discussion went from a brief self-report to "this is fantastic, and here's how AI can help" (I'm aware that I'm caricaturing this because there was some discussion about phenomenology and how it relates to fundamental Buddhist tenets that was interesting but woefully short and superficial).
Using an (admittedly imperfect) McGilchrist perspective, I'd say the discussion was quickly hijacked by a left hemispheric stance of unbridled (but unwarranted) optimism, obsession with mechanism and abstraction (like byzantine mathematical models), and naive belief in science and technology. Scientists will likely be put off by the lack or rigorous interrogation and contemplatives by the mechanizing and modelling of meditative experience, which is probably one of the most unique features of creatures embedded in the moist and messy yet most mysterious experience we call life.
Would have been good to explore this side of things more - the achievement of sitting for 6 days was more or less disregarded.
What a beautiful conversation. Shinzen is so on point here.
It would be good for the sake of the Dhamma if this video was shortened to feature highlights of the essentials of the conversation.
oh my buddha, shinzen young needs to down-regulate that impulse to interrupt and get all discursive goofball.
Hi Steve! Great show as usual. Big fan of your work bringing various practitioners, scholars and practitioner-scholars together. You and your guests have impacted my practice and learnings for the better.
And yes, please do try to interview Jeffery Martin!
For those who don't know, he is a scholar with a specific focus of academia on awakening in it's varrious forms; and claims to have significant attainment himself. Much thanks for your ongoing contribution to bettering the world with getting good quality, diverse content on the net.
🙇♂🌈
I came across this conversation because I was looking for some recent talks of Shinzen. I am surprised how he is obsessed with need of "scientific" and "mathematical" explanation of enlighment. His remarks are very creative.He fluently combines several distant domains but I afraid that some of the combinations are based on free associations between concepts. Hist talk resambles some postmodern philosophers that decided to deconstruct scientific jargon.
So so so many now bright scientific minds are meditators etc. we’re reaching a critical mass. Connecting the dots.
It’s unfortunate that Shinzen doesn’t understand mathematical modeling well enough to explain it so that anyone can understand. In the middle of a fascinating discussion, we get 20 minutes of jargon diarrhea starting at 1:11:33. This is a forum for high-level concepts, not Shinzen trying to seem smart by spouting a list of mathematical formulas. If I wanted that, I’d read the relevant publications. I got nothing intelligible from Shinzen.
Like everyone else I came here to comment on Shinzen and like all the comments that criticized and didn't apologize for him. I also don't think it was respectful or skillful on the part of the other guests, as some have suggested, to let him interrupt and hijack over and over like that; respectful would be to interrupt back and be like "excuse me, I was talking." He even went to the length of extremely rudely holding the floor ***3 Times*** to deal with his ringing phone which he obviously wanted to make a show of the fact that someone famous named peter was calling him. Peter Singer? Peter Gabriel? Peter Jackson? I don't give a shit and no one else does either. Unless it's Peter Dinklage then nm that's pretty badass & respek.
I know i didn't have to listen I started it and abandoned it once but then listened for my friend and my "Podcast Club" so we could discuss it. (She also was disgusted by Shinzen)
1:04:50
Delson describes the perfected state beyond the taints where the "seen is only the seen" etc. My question is how that relates to the cessation of consciousness. Is there any "seeing" at all happening during cessation? Or does that cessation induce this taintless clarity of vision after one emerges from it? If the clarity of vision happens after the attainment and re-emergence from cessation what experience led to that shift of vision? How could a mind undergo a change to a new way of seeing life through an absence of consciousness? Or is it just the shock of having been unaware of 6 days passing that does it? Ie., the confirmation that conscience totally stopped with no memory of the time that passed? If that is the transformative experience here, could we get the same realization through a deep dreamless sleep, if we didn't normalize this nightly experience of cessation? Questions I would love to ask Delson.
If I may share... not all cessations lead to Nibanna.. what is required here is the application of wisdom, so these things dont happen to us, like on autopilot, no one gifts us Nibanna, not even The Buddha...we have to apply wisdom, clear seeing, yoniso manisakara, right attention etc.... for example.. The 5 aggregates are ALWAYS annata, they're impersonal ALWAYS, not only when we come out of cessation, but the clarity gained in these states enables the clear seeing easier...
@@anthonybrown1417 "the clarity gained in these states enables the clear seeing easier" --it is this I am perplexed about. How could a state characterized by the cessation of perception and feeling deliver some type of "clarity?" Is there a type of clarity that does not involve any type of perception or feeling? Remember that perception includes mental cognition (thoughts). This is the question that someone who claims to have realized that wisdom that you mention, through the cessation of perception and feeling, would be able to answer I am guessing. And this would give the rest of us solid motivation for going through the trouble of reaching such a purified state of samadhi.
What is Chelsey Fasano doing in this mansplaining session and how is Dr. Ruben Laukonnen related to the topic of this monologue series, which is "Shinzen Young's musings"?
As far as I understand, nirodha experience of Delson Armstrong is akin to some junkie tied to bed. Or being blacked out after being hit hard with a baseball bat. Is this the cessation of suffering? Really?
It would be wonderful to have the other guests back, perhaps with Shinzen just listening. Not to exclude Shinzen, but I walked away from this conversation very unclear on their perspectives on the topic.
For me I still go through sensory experience. It's just that when self and world arise again this is just memory working again. To me it felt as if I was just happening but because I let go so fast there is nothing to remember and when I arise a big blank space of nothing worth remembering exists. That's how I explained it to myself. Also I did it in motion never tried doing it still. Longest was 6 months give or take a month... gone. Noone I knew noticed. To them I just became a better version of myself since I too spoke of it to Noone but for a different reason. Usually when it used to happen alot though it would usually occur when I start working or doing chores. And it ends when I'm done. Kind of like with when people lose their keys. They threw it somewhere but can't remember doing it. But instead of not paying attention to the keys it's not paying attention to anything. That is it is not paying attention to the arising interaction of the senses to create the perception of self and world. An effortless doing one could say ones conditioned instincts take over. It is spontaneously arising from its past conditioning. And my conditioning was martial arts. So for me it evolved before the parts of the brain that create self and world. Those parts are new but powerful. Still underneath it all that is no state of hibernation. That is a state of extremely high activity. Without the need for a self or world to interrupt the process. The Japanese samurai considered attaining such a state a matter of life and death. Think it's called mushin. Without past or future self or world. Riding the wave of now. The formless activity of self expression. Lol hibernation sounds alot like ascetism. Like sloths. 😅
ua-cam.com/video/rXk-rYwcYno/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/GhT2XYQ5Yj0/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/luKVhuUsGMc/v-deo.html
Oh well, the old saying is, " If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with Bullshit".
The interesting connection to hibernation. It makes sense that animals hibernate due perhaps to their natural lack of attachment to the aggregates and self. We humans have to deconstruct the human programming to get there.
I think Shinzen Young should control his use of language - using profanities - the 'F' word is not a thing people 'on the path' like to hear - it is disturbing for people who are sensitive to the qualities of speech - 'right speech'.
its possible that Shinzen is seeing what we're missing. I personally see too many very recent studies and experiments that are coming out left and right and it's hard to keep up with. He's possibly trying to hint us at something.
I think there is a lot of potential for science and tech to contribute/integrate with well-being, but I think the point that was overlooked in this convo, due to little opportunity for others to speak, is the human element. Human element here really refers to Buddhist cosmology of the human realm. Science, in my opinion, has its limitations, deep meditation and spiritual practice on the other hand, does not, especially regarding rebirth, new existence. The convo generally turned to a more scientific take on human existence. I don't think there will ever be an 'easy fix' for putting people right ... it's a complex process at the level of mind. Can science/AI deeply change who we are? Through deep meditation, where one encounters mind, really, it is possible. Any attachment at these higher states of mind, hinders progress. Understanding/experiencing mind, or the primordial state of mind, is what can lead to experiencing Nibbana. I question whether an APP can achieve this.
I can just about see how connectivity, networks, and category theory might eventually be useful in the mathematical modelling of the EEG data, but the detour into the multiverse concept in quantum mechanics - which has no empirical support - seems gratuitous. I can’t for the life of me see how or why we get to AI alignment and Frobenius monoids. I would rather have heard more from Nelson on nirodha samāpatti.
Chagdud Tulku never claimed attainments, his friend Sagnak Tulku ,the same. An Arhat may claim I am an ''Arhat free from greed"
Yeah, I agree with all the comments about leaving Shinzen OUT. Cheers for all of his contributions to modern dialog within Buddhist writers and orators... but he left me shaking my head thinking, this guy is knowledgeable yet full of ego and the need to be center stage. Give him his own episode and let him ramble. Leave him out of group conversations of this nature, please!
((*I was listening to this on Spotify and got so sick of hearimg Shinzen bogart the "conversation", interrupt Delson, spew his garble, and dominate something he appeared to have some pathetic need to dominate the whole episode, and sound like the all-knowing- master that i pulled this up on UA-cam to see what the comments are...
AND to discover that this is the common thread in the comments!
I am new to learning about Dhamma. I have been watching lots and lots od Dhamma teachers on UA-cam and liatening on Spotify.
Delson Armstrong's meditation techniques and Dhamma talks have risen to the surface of what i am resonanting with.
Dharma Paths site. Who are the Suttavadins?
24 Views and not open yet, 9:42 est 12/09/23
It could take off like horse racing or lay dead in the blog-sphere or flounder around bound by TOS.
"Three Coins in the Fountain"-which one will the fountain bless somewhere in the heart of Rome.
~the post/thread/blog/conversation, etc., is open.
yes yes yes
Shinzen not-so-Young ruined a potentially wonderful talk. I was skipping through his incoherent "wow this is deep bro"-gibberish only to realize he hijacked at least half of this gathering.
Who are the Suttavadins?
Waiting for Dharma Paths site to approve my post for discussion.
Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:59 am
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00:07:42 Who are the Suttavadins?
00:19:28 CLAIM: Bhante Vimalaramsi is an Anāgāmi
00:33:45 CLAIM: A TWIM Anāgāmi Is a Genuine Anāgāmi
00:37:29 CLAIM: Bhante Vimalaramsi’s grasp of language is correct and
etc, etc and so forth........
~handle- Sarahaa I
hibernation capacity?
TY! Wonderful moderating Steve and creation of a space for a series of fabulous conversations hopefully to keep coming. So many angles to explore on this topic that they couldn’t possibly be covered in just one session. Loved this mixed group 😊 cultural, practice, science and the enthusiastic refreshing non-bypassing of our worlds greatest challenges to come.
To the extent that so much meditation, mindfulness and spirituality teaching is juat so much ungrounded word salad i woild agree that an LLM might do no worse.
people who don't know, say they know, people who know, don't say they know
Keep Shinzen I am not a geek or math nerd but the connection between AI science, consciousness and meditation, clarifies Pattica Samupada into a current practical application ❤
chatterbutts for enlightenment, wew lads we have arrived.
Would have been nice to hear more from Delano and less from Shinzen who took u way too much space!!! Wow
Who are the Suttavadins? The dark truth
What is Dhamma Wheel
spins and falls
into the abyss
of no bliss
where mara calls
and Good dhamma
falls
~Sarahaa the Archer
How unaware can a “dharma teacher” be? Shinzen is insufferable. How many times is he going to interrupt others and control the conversation with his goofy digressions? Typical western “teacher”. Talks way too much (inversely proportional with his knowledge).
Guru Viking: I love what you do in general, but in these situations you might consider interjecting so as to set limits on a guest who is clearly unable to sustain a balanced dialogue and who’s ego hijacked the conversation.
I wonder how the eeg and physiological data varies from deep sleep...
Any scientific evidence of zero heartbeat while Delson is in Nirodha? Flat lining the brain scan has been around for years. It my understanding that in nirodha that the heartbeat stops.
First, this guy Delson is just on an unsuspecting ego trip where anatta hadn’t occurred. The egoic self remains as the experiencer and doer. Shinzen is lost in intellectual “thinking” centered around a fictional self-entity.
Nobody expects the dhamma Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear... fear and surprise... Our two weapons are fear and surprise... 12 fold kamma reckoning and it's fruit ...._- kamma to be experienced here and now and all the rest- Our three weapons are moral shame and moral dread and patience... and an almost fanatical devotion to the suttas... Our four... no... Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, shame... I'll come in again
~Saraha
Controversy at Dhamma Wheel over Dhamma Wheel.
WHO are the Suttavadins? the dark truth
~Sarahaa the Archer