Hand Pressure In Turns - Practice Like a Pro #67
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- SERIOUS ABOUT IMPROVING YOUR RIDING?
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THIS EPISODE with Simon Lawton and @LinneaRooke:
There's a common misconception about how much hand pressure you really need in turns. While many riders, use their upper body to force the bike into the turn, this isn't optimal because:
1. It keeps the pressure higher on the bike, rather than lower through the feet where you have more control
2. More likely to slide on a root or something slippery
3. More rigid and makes it harder to relax the upper body, while also wasting energy
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I'm not sure if Simon is actually saying that it's possible to change the weight distribution between front and rear tyre without using hand pressure, but if he is - I don't agree. The idea that simply moving your bodyweight further forwards (i.e. moving your knee over your toe) will put more pressure into the front tyre, without any need to increase hand pressure on the grips, is wrong isn't it? Imagine you had zero hand pressure on the bars (e.g. you were somehow riding along with your arms folded across your chest...) - even if you could magically lean your bodyweight so far forward that your head was past your front wheel, that bodyweight will still be acting through its only contact with the bike, i.e. the pedals and, in turn, the bottom bracket. So your bodyweight will always be acting through the bottom bracket UNLESS you redistribute that weight using a second contact point with the bike, i.e. the hands.
I still think the instruction in this video is correct, i.e. if you get your knees forward over your toes, you'll increase ground pressure through your front tyre. But... this only happens because your hand pressure on the grips inevitably increases as your bodyweight goes forward, because it has to - it's the only thing stopping you from completely toppling over forward. I do like Fluidride's approach as only thinking about moving the knee forward gives you more subtle control of weight distribution between hands and feet. This helps avoid pressing too much weight through the grips, thereby allow the steering to do it's thing and set at the correct angle for the turn, plus it reminds you to keep as much of your mass as possible acting through your feet.
Instead of theorizing -- go try it. I've unweighted either wheel, at will, without pulling or pushing on the bars. I think you need to get to a point in your riding skills awareness where you're not working your hands/arms so hard, and not focusing so much on how you jerk around the handlebar.
Most of your stability comes from your core mass being positioned properly relative to the tires' contact patch. Not from your hands on the grips. If anything you should feel it in your feet vs your hands.
I think he’s saying you needn’t focus on hand pressure - but you’re right - inevitably you’re weighting the front end more as a result of body position. I suppose Simon would rather have riders focus on moving the big pieces (torso, legs) into the right places instead of focusing on your what your hands might be feeling.
Your weight acts through the bottom bracket, but there's also an "angle" associated with that weight/force. We can tend to consider the static weight of a rider on top of a level bike without any of the numerous dynamic aspects in play and declare that all weight is applied "straight down" and front/weight balance in the absence of hand pressure is just a factor of front vs rear center lengths and call it a day.
The force from your weight needs to go into the bottom bracket at an angle that actually results in downforce into the contact patches.
If your aren't "square", some of that force is happening laterally and not contributing to traction. kinda like a glancing blow, and not actually driving the tires into the dirt.
This knee placement is helping align the forces coming from your body along a path that allows them to exert pressure on the contact patch.
@@TheCaptainBondo there's a ton of physics that happens in cornering, which part of why I'm so bad at it 😁 that said, is it not true that *all* the rider's weight has to go into the contact patches, regardless of where the rider's weight is? - and we also have centripetal force to consider. Given whatever coefficient of static friction you can hope for, one of the real tricks that they're showing here with swinging the hips outward is that you're moving that body mass through a wider arc, requiring less centripetal force.
@@TheCaptainBondo Mostly because all the variables in play would overwhelm someone at first thought. The angle you mention, it depends on the terrain in the corner, and also the tires you're using. Big side knobs? Small side knobs? Are the knobs flexy? Sometimes the angle gets adjusted by the terrain, sometimes by the rider.
Simplifying it all, though, it's about the right body position/posture to make that angle optimal. To try to get the forces pushing the tires straight down, not obliquely.
One of the things that’s helped me a lot recently is when I was telling you and Jason (during a recent lesson) that I always seemed like my bike felt light in corners. Jason had a simple response of “the weight has to be somewhere”, to which I realized that I had WAY too much weight in my hands that I didn’t notice before. So now, I keep reminding myself “the weight has to be somewhere” and (along with doing my footwork) it’s really helped me feel the weight in my feet and thus feel like I have more grip in corners.
I like this! Going to steal that one! -Simon
Really great video again. I've learned quite a bit from you guys. It's now one of my very few go to channels when it comes to various techniques. Thank you👍.
Wish I've seen this a couple of weeks back.. had a painful slip and scraped half my body on gravel exactly for this reason: body weight was too much backwards and the front washed out and away from me!
Super common mistake. Think we've all been there...wondering what just happened!
Your recent cornering videos have really resonated with me -- just the techniques I needed to improve at my current stage of riding! Thank you! Perhaps you could address any nuances for berm turns in a future vid.
I definitely have to practice this. I've washed out so many times. I come from a moto background. The only way I've been able to rail berms is to actually stick my inside leg out, and my outside pedal down like I'm riding moto. I get so much grip like this.
I see the principle behind this video. It's good to get an explanation what I should be doing.
Thanks guys!
I rode motos before MTB (but after bicycles) and understand what you talked about. What Simon's talking about here is achieving the same tire contact pressures without having to be in the saddle and unclipped/outriggered on the inside foot/leg. Basically, how to achieve what you experienced with the "moto turn" body posture, without the limitations of that posture.
@seanoneil277 there's definitely some habits to break. The throttle always gets me out of trouble. I changed my brakes to moto which helped a lot to make braking more natural.
@@justsayin3600 Yeah even if you have mighty strong legs, nothing you can do on the pedals can save your bacon like a goose of the throttle on a moto.
The good thing is that on moto you already learned that lofting the front wheel, punch-popping over downed trees, etc -- they are about timing, and they don't need you (the rider) to be uber strong or yank hard on the handlebar etc. You already have learned it's about timing and momentum. That's a big deal in MTB.
Having consistent brakes -- yeah I stopped riding moto a good while before I started MTB. If I rode both, the brakes would absolutely have to match for me.
I find that I like to counter steer into tight turns in order to lean, but the arm input during the turn is only to hold the lean angle stable, adjust where the angle of the lean and how tight the turn is dictated by your legs and hips, which like with all sports should be knees over toes… closed chain drive that uses everything and shifts your weight towards that direction…
Skiing, skating, biking
Especially with flat turns, I find you use your arms to tip in to initiate but does nothing more than hold the angle while you drive with the weight through the legs. It’s like skiing, you initiate through the tips and then roll the edges until you finish the turn with the weight over the rear, bikes are the same as you are carving through an arc
It's true that counter steering is usually subconscious but it is worth mentioning that counter steering in decreasing radius corners or hair pins should be a conscious effort. I stress light counter steering with body steering or hip steering, either way it's essential to utilize both.
As someone who's learned all of my riding technique through simple trial and error riding, racing, and crashing (pre-internet, let's be honest), I really appreciate your explanations. So many things that we do automatically are brought to mind and it adds a little context to things and helps reinforce good technique, even if we're already doing it to a certain extent.
Definitely will practice this! Keep up the good work
I don't understand...
The BB is a see-saw. How can there be more force on one foot than the other without it beginning to turn? So, how can there be more or less force on the front unless there is more or less force going through your hands (as a result of shifting your body forward or backwards between the contact points)?
Moving your bodyweight about. No problem. Breaking physics? Not so sure. What am I missing?
You can actually have all your weight on one foot and go straight. You can also put more weight on the front wheel by driving your outside knee forward without adding weight to your hands (shifting body mass toward the front of the bike).
@@Fluidride Thanks for replying, but I still can't align the physics / mechanics. A crank spins around the the BB if the forces on the pedals don't balance (or all the force is on the pedal at the bottom of the rotation). The combined crank forces act on the frame through the BB. I just don't see how there is change in fore or aft without a corresponding change at the hands.
I get that we want to our mass to act vertically through the BB / outside pedal (when bottom) so that the vertical force is as close as possible to being between the tyre contact patches. Whereas leaning your body into a turn requires lateral grip (in short supply) to generate the balancing forces.
With these great techniques, hip rotation, body position, knees, and foot work etc. Does the tire size of 27.5 vs 29ers require more finesse as one has less rubber to ground contact area ?
Seems that 27.5 diameter tires should respond quickly and with less hipster, and dance moves.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers!
Smaller wheels do respond slightly faster I'd say, but I don't really notice the grip difference all that much between my bikes, but I'm sure there is some difference there!
Thanks for sharing@@Fluidride
Really good stuff, thanks Simon and Linnea.
Simon, I often try to achieve this by (1) feeling my contact through my feet before I start the turn, (2) letting my hips glide to the outside as I tip the bike in, while still feeling the ground/tire contact through my feet. I think the hip glide unconsciously includes knee drive, at least on flat sweepers, for me. Have to think about it more when it's a choppy turn.
That is a great cue you are using! Love it...
@@Fluidride Like everything MTB for me, it comes from alpine skiing, just translating it over. Your videos have helped a ton in that translation, Simon. You are a very good coach.
That explains a lot
Ok. How come pro racers train their chest and upper body much?
Bumps, jumps and pedaling/pulling bars up require core/arm strength. Heard of arm pump?
G-outs, compressions -- at speed. You either fold and crumple and crash, or carry through. Sometimes your timing is off and the tendency to crumple is severe. If you are strong in that moment it may prevent a crash and injury.
If you think a top DH rider is able to manipulate the bike because of massive arms/chest strength, you're very very confused on what bike handling is. Try riding motos. See if your gym-bulked strength can make the moto bunny hop. Not a sur-ron, a real moto.
It's about timing, not massive strength.
Because when you’re a mountain biker leg day is every day 😜
Because you use your upper body a lot:). Sounds contradictory, but the idea is to aim to use it less and stay balanced over the legs as best you can and not use the upper body super consciously. On steep terrain, it's nearly impossible to stay off the arms. I used to race pro dh, and trained my upper body super hard, while training my riding technique to keep me off it as best I could.