As always, thank you for being so generous in posting instructional videos, Steve. Sometimes I just need a quick reminder about how to do something and I can almost always find an answer from you. Thanks!
Are you still with Howard Pianos? My technician (Hiroshi} moved back to Japan. 😿Last year he tuned & did full regulation on my grand. I am looking for someone who's a member of The Piano Technician's Guild. Cheers XoXo
That was my problem... I did it the wrong way before watching this video with the butterfly spring.. My mistake, I also removed the bottom portion too and expanded....tension is a little better but didn’t work well. Let me try this again, the right way. ... man! I wish I saw this video before the fix and thank you.
Great video! I wouldn’t say that the second whippen is particularly characteristic to the Renner type. In Europe we call it Erard type and butterfly is Hertz type, named after the inventors. Nowadays Renner Stuttgardt only makes whippens with Hertz spring. Erard type spring seems to go out of fashion, perhaps because many makers like Schwander or Flemming are not in the business anymore.
Thanks for this Video. Can you please explain about the "button" at the top rear of the repetition lever, (not the Jack "button"), with regard to regulation of repetition. I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
This regulating button is for adjusting the height of the repetition lever. You can adjust this to make sure the top of the jack is in the right relation the the top of the repetition lever. I will be doing a video on this adjustment soon.
It seems like a great video, but the volume is so low I can't hear it clearly, even with my MacBook volume all the way up (and the volume slider on you tube all the way up). :(
As far as I understand, it works like this: 1. After the jack falls behind the knuckle, the knuckle (and the hammer shank through the knuckle) is supported by the repetition lever. 2. When you slightly release the key, the opposite side of the key (the left from our view) slightly lowers, pushing the left side of the repetition lever weaker. 3. This allows the butterfly spring on the other (right) side of the lever to push it slightly upwards, thus lifting the knuckle, the hammer shank and the hammer itself.
It gives you what is called: aftertouch, try some keys that DON’T have the repetition spring correctly adjusted as opposed to another group of keys that do, and you will/do find a big difference
@@allchopin I really am concerned also about the same thing. I came across a piano in which the hammers did not rise after playing the key and slowly releasing it. . some of the notes did nt play at all on the second strike as if the jack was not resetting. I was wondering if the repetition spring would help remedy such issue if adjusted to rise after playing it. in other words can the keys still play if the repetition springs are not adjusted??
In recent years, the Renner-type single spring repetition seems to have gone completely out of favor. Even the Schimmel teflon screw at the top of the butterfly spring is hard to find.
is that spring the most directly affecting thing on how fast I can hit a note repeatedly? is there something else to take into consideration too when making that adjustment other than the hammer movement?
There are other factors that affect the speed of repetition. You want to make sure that the hammer flange pinning is not too tight or too loose which will have a big effect on the speed of repetition.
Thanks, that was interesting! Do you prefer working with the longer spring with the screw or the butterfly type? It seems to me that the butterfly spring would be more susceptible to mistake (i.e. possibly bending it sideways).
Yes, I definitely prefer the screw type adjustment as it is easier to make fine adjustments. WIth the other type, it's kind of a guessing game as to how much pressure you need to put on the spring to make the needed adjustment.
i had the issue where the jack wasn't resetting to where the jack button touches the spoon. figured either the pinning was too tight or the repetition spring (on the jack side / bottom half / not the part you adjusted here) was too weak. i didn't have pinning tools with me so i tried to adjust the strength of the repetition spring on the other end... i eventually got it to repeat pretty good but i think the rep lever was a little on the strong side, so i'm not sure i made the optimal adjustment... plus it took like an hour ... is there any way to adjust the spring strength on the jack end?
You can take the whippen out and adjust the spring where it presses on the jack cord. Really the best solution would be to take care of the sluggish jack pinning though.
As always, thank you for being so generous in posting instructional videos, Steve. Sometimes I just need a quick reminder about how to do something and I can almost always find an answer from you. Thanks!
Are you still with Howard Pianos? My technician (Hiroshi} moved back to Japan. 😿Last year he tuned & did full regulation on my grand. I am looking for someone who's a member of The Piano Technician's Guild.
Cheers XoXo
Very helpful. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
That was my problem... I did it the wrong way before watching this video with the butterfly spring.. My mistake, I also removed the bottom portion too and expanded....tension is a little better but didn’t work well. Let me try this again, the right way. ... man! I wish I saw this video before the fix and thank you.
Great video! I wouldn’t say that the second whippen is particularly characteristic to the Renner type. In Europe we call it Erard type and butterfly is Hertz type, named after the inventors. Nowadays Renner Stuttgardt only makes whippens with Hertz spring. Erard type spring seems to go out of fashion, perhaps because many makers like Schwander or Flemming are not in the business anymore.
Thanks for this Video. Can you please explain about the "button" at the top rear of the repetition lever, (not the Jack "button"), with regard to regulation of repetition. I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
This regulating button is for adjusting the height of the repetition lever. You can adjust this to make sure the top of the jack is in the right relation the the top of the repetition lever. I will be doing a video on this adjustment soon.
Thanks for responding so quickly and I look forward to your video on this topic.
It seems like a great video, but the volume is so low I can't hear it clearly, even with my MacBook volume all the way up (and the volume slider on you tube all the way up). :(
Sorry about that! Thanks for watching!
I didn't really understand why slowly releasing the key, the hammer should go up?
As far as I understand, it works like this:
1. After the jack falls behind the knuckle, the knuckle (and the hammer shank through the knuckle) is supported by the repetition lever.
2. When you slightly release the key, the opposite side of the key (the left from our view) slightly lowers, pushing the left side of the repetition lever weaker.
3. This allows the butterfly spring on the other (right) side of the lever to push it slightly upwards, thus lifting the knuckle, the hammer shank and the hammer itself.
@@statcc0 But why is this movement necessary to the action? What would happen if there was no springing action?
It gives you what is called: aftertouch, try some keys that DON’T have the repetition spring correctly adjusted as opposed to another group of keys that do, and you will/do find a big difference
@@allchopin I really am concerned also about the same thing. I came across a piano in which the hammers did not rise after playing the key and slowly releasing it. . some of the notes did nt play at all on the second strike as if the jack was not resetting. I was wondering if the repetition spring would help remedy such issue if adjusted to rise after playing it. in other words can the keys still play if the repetition springs are not adjusted??
@@Ocean8881 I think that if the spring goes too weak, the tip of the jack will not find "room" nor time to return under the knuckle
In recent years, the Renner-type single spring repetition seems to have gone completely out of favor. Even the Schimmel teflon screw at the top of the butterfly spring is hard to find.
Yes, adjusting the spring with the screw adjustment does make things much easier, but unfortunately these aren't very common anymore.
is that spring the most directly affecting thing on how fast I can hit a note repeatedly? is there something else to take into consideration too when making that adjustment other than the hammer movement?
There are other factors that affect the speed of repetition. You want to make sure that the hammer flange pinning is not too tight or too loose which will have a big effect on the speed of repetition.
Thanks, that was interesting!
Do you prefer working with the longer spring with the screw or the butterfly type? It seems to me that the butterfly spring would be more susceptible to mistake (i.e. possibly bending it sideways).
Yes, I definitely prefer the screw type adjustment as it is easier to make fine adjustments. WIth the other type, it's kind of a guessing game as to how much pressure you need to put on the spring to make the needed adjustment.
We have a lot of videos showing the regulating steps for an upright piano on our UA-cam channel.
Thanks for the reply. I imagined the types would be easier. Thank you for providing such great videos!
i had the issue where the jack wasn't resetting to where the jack button touches the spoon. figured either the pinning was too tight or the repetition spring (on the jack side / bottom half / not the part you adjusted here) was too weak. i didn't have pinning tools with me so i tried to adjust the strength of the repetition spring on the other end... i eventually got it to repeat pretty good but i think the rep lever was a little on the strong side, so i'm not sure i made the optimal adjustment... plus it took like an hour ... is there any way to adjust the spring strength on the jack end?
You can take the whippen out and adjust the spring where it presses on the jack cord. Really the best solution would be to take care of the sluggish jack pinning though.
How about half repetitions ??