Does Torahism = Hebrew Roots Movement?
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2020
- Ever since my book came out, the most common question I get is "What is Torahism?" Is it different from Judaism or the Hebrew Roots Movement? Here's a quick video to explain what I mean when I refer to "Torahism" and "Torahists." Let me know your thoughts!
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I have a friend that was a member of the Assemblies of God denomination then switched to Seventh Day Adventist beliefs and now is a full blown Torahist.
"Torahism" may not be a term found in the Dictionary, but neither is the Hebrew Roots movement found in the Bible, so it is a fitting book title. So these cultists say there is nothing in the Bible that says we are no longer under the Law? Really? Paul wrote, "for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Rom. 6:14) and "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Gal. 5:18)
Interesting video! I am a born again Christian but grew up in the world wide church of God! I left it at 18 and became a Christian when I was 22. It worries me when I see people want to put themselves under the law. ❤️🙏✝️
Thanks for watching, Dee! I share your same concern. Blessings, Rob
04/04/2021
Hello Mr. Solberg ~ thank you for your respectful & informative messages. I've only viewed a few of them & much appreciate your calm, yet forth-right demeanor.
Okay, I won't go into everything & will try to make this short. I'd waded into the HRM a couple of years ago, after being a Christian for over 40 years. I can attest the HRM group (I won't name their leader.), that I came across went beserk if you used the name Jesus instead of a few other names/titles that they believed were the true reference. Also, they certainly didn't like being called "Christians". And yes, they were adamant concerning keeping all of laws of Torah. I could go on & on, but for now my question to you Sir: Is it okay that we use the name Jesus to refer to our King?
Thank you for your response. Peace.
👑JESUS is KING👑
PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11🛐
Thank you for your kind words and for reaching out. There is absolutely no problem with using the name Jesus to refer to our King and Savior. That is His name in English! There are no commands in Scripture regarding what specific name we are to use when referring to Him. I refer to Him as Jesus or Yeshua (His Hebrew name which means Salvation.) But the Bible refers to Him as Emmanuel, Prince of Peace, Son of God, Lamb of God, Son of David, Son, the Word, Jesus, and more. Jesus refers to Himself as "Son of Man" (Luke 19:10) and "I Am" (John 8:58). Bless you!
A question, (I came out of 'Hebrew roots' or 'torahism' after 25 years of it) I find it difficult to call some of the torah observant folk 'brethren' as I see a conflict with regards to the gospel - a lot teach that it is important to follow Jesus or Yahshua (as they did in my old congregation) and that we are obligated to keep the law. In my understanding the gospel is Christ alone, so when they use scriptures of Jesus saying 'depart from me you lawless ones', they're adding works as a requirement. Therefore in my mind it's similar to Catholicism, where faith + works is required. While I believe faith alone is required BUT... It produces works evident of faith. So my question is, do you have that inner conflict to say they are brethren? I know some torah observant friends who are involved in it but believe faith alone saves contary to the teachings of their elders, so I can see a genuine salvation there.
That's a really good question. Scripture is clear that we are saved by faith alone. But there is some grey area in how we deal with people on this issue. For me, it comes down to the fact that we can't truly know another person's heart. We can get a really good idea, based on their words and actions, of course. If they deny Yeshua, then we have a problem. If they confess Yeshua as Lord-which most Catholics and many Torahists do-then I might be comfortable calling them a brother and sister in Christ. If someone further adds works on top of their faith, thinking it is required for salvation, I would say they are mistaken and performing unrequired acts. But is their salvation lost?
@@TheBiblicalRoots I would say if anyone isn't relying on Jesus alone through faith alone, is lost sadly. Alot of the Scriptures are clear that if you add works to Jesus as a requirement, then you have a false gospel and fall short. However, saving faith produces works I must clarify. Someone who isn't repentant or sorrowful of their sin clearly isn't showing fruits of being born again. This is why I find it tricky with the question I asked. However I agree, we must always rebuke/correct in love and gentleness.
@@PimpGanstaPoet I'd be really interested in hearing your story of how you came out of that and why. Right now I'm trying to understand who is correct and who isn't myself.
@@The311wax1980 Everyone seems to want to give the extremes on both sides. But it’s a vast world out there. In the middle, you will find those that do follow some Torah, and believe Jesus is the Messiah. If you believe that God gave Moses the 10 Commandments, then you believe those are Gods Laws and God is eternal and unchanged. But rabbinic law took over and that’s why all this bickering. The presenter is correct, there is a ton of really horrible teachings that came out of the “new” thought church. Look up some of Martin Luther’s writings. Hitler based his beliefs from them. It’s why Jews won’t read the NT.
The truth is almost always in the middle. Jesus came to be the example of true Torah, not abolish it. He came to bring his people back into right relationship with God because they were on the wrong path. He was intended to unite the Jews and as a united people, they were to unite the nations under God.
By their fruit (works) we will know them. You can try faith alone, or you can choose to follow Gods teachings. But what we shouldn’t do is to continue to divide Gods people, but there is money in it. UA-cam videos, book sales, speaking events, etc.
You are a lot nicer than Paul was when talking about the Judaizers that were the enemies of the Church at the beginning. They are back.
I listen to a lot of your videos. And I just want to point out as a Torah observant Christian and someone who believes that salvation is found in Christ alone. That there are many bad teachings within the Torah community.
That said, there are also many bad teachings in the Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox communities as well. To those who have been negatively impacted by the Torah community, my sincere apologies.
In the same way, I have first hand seen damage done to close friends and relatives within other denominational communities that do not affirm Torah. Any time this happens, it is heartbreaking.
Please do understand that many of us, just as other denominational persuasions would state, are merely trying to do what the Father desires to the best of our broken ability.
We wont always get it right, and not all people in the movement walk in Spirit. This isn't an excuse, but it is a fact common to all communities who affirm Jesus Christ as their savior.
Whatever truth is, Christ will one day return and set all of us on the straight path of His Eternal and Holy way.
Sholom and blessings as we all endeavor to walk in accordance to the paths which we have been called.
I wrote this in response to some of the comments.
Beautifully stated, Justin. Thank you!
~Rob
Justin, brother I completely agree with what you've written here. I came to this to hear the premise of the book and was a bit shocked. The author has created his own version of Torah Observant Christianity to state how bad it is.
I pray that this author and theologian as he claims to be can find the peace that exists in following Jesus by becoming like him. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is simply put, where we choose to be like him, to act like him, to do the things He did. And we know for a fact that, that means obeying God's instructions (Torah) perfectly. Simply put, if you want to be a follower of Jesus, you wouldn't actively do the things that He doesn't do and that He himself called sin. He was perfect in his obedience. We haven't been and yet He still died for us to bring us into truth and freedom. After all, even the Messiah's message is to repent and follow.
I would have one main question for this author... The consistent message of salvation throughout the new testament resides on repentance. The definition of repentance requires a very clear and unified message of sin. A definition that is hard, fast, and does not change. Jesus told us what the definition of sin is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." These two comments are direct quotes from the Torah. Look at how they are woven deeply into the entirety of the Torah. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength has a definition and bookends the laws of God throughout Deuteronomy. If you disconnect the Messiah's teachings from the Torah, then He is disqualified to be the Messiah by definition. You teach that repentance no longer has a meaning because you have unplugged the definition of sin from God's definition of sin. You have taught that God has changed his mind and doesn't know what He wants. Jesus never taught any of those things though.
Ultimately I came to this to see where this author stands on the subject because he has a debate with Tovia Singer in a month. The "gospel" that this author teaches disqualifies Jesus from being the Messiah in accordance with Deuteronomy 12 and 13. It proves Tovia right and there's nothing that this author is going to say that can change that. I was hoping and praying that Tovia would be speaking with a man who sees Jesus as the true perfect Messiah from Torah, who obeyed and taught perfect love to our father God. I pray deeply that Rob will see the truth of the unity of God and Jesus. That their ways are perfect, and never change. So that when he stands in front of Tovia, he can stand up for the entire Jesus following believers in the world and show our brother Judah their loving Messiah Yeshua who has come and is coming again.
Shalom brother.
Hey Rob, have you came across the Torah observant fellowship called the Parable of the Vineyard with Adam Fink? If you have what’s your take on this group? Thank you
Hi, Kim. I am not familiar with them, no. ~Rob
I am glad I came across your videos, I really think you should have called your book Torah Constructivism. I think the Torah (instruction) still applies in the New Covenant but the legality of it does not. Grace never came by observation of Torah.
Learned about you through the Living Waters podcast.
Thank you for your video and book. We had a brother who sadly got caught up with this, he started requiring his daughters and wife to wear head coverings, stopped celebrating Christmas. Seems like legalism to me.
Sorry to hear that, Kimberly! Yes, Torahism is in many ways a modern form of overly legalistic Pharisaism. But it's even stranger than that since 100% of Torah-observant Christians are Gentiles, and Gentiles are not and have never been under the Law of Moses. I hope you find my resources helpful. Blessings, Rob
OK, great "nutshell" overview...although you have overlooked (here) one very important reason for "the rise in 'Torahism'", but let me listen to just one more...
Rob, when I think of Messianic Judaism people such as Dr. Michael Brown come to my mind. I've come across a torah observant YT channel where the 2 men claim to be following Messianic Judaism. They are not ethnic Jews. Doing a little research, one of the men followed his father into First Fruits of Zion. It was the usual " the church lied to me."
This guy did a YT debate in Jan. 2020 with another Torah channel....defending the Trinity. "This has been a journey. I haven't always been Trinitarian."
I have come across his comments in which it appears by "Messianic Judaism" he means " not modern Judaism.
Any thoughts?
That's interesting. I suppose anyone can call themselves anything they want. Technically Messianic Judaism refers to Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus). Examples of Messianic Jewish organizations include www.OneForIsrael.org and www.JewsForJesus.org. They are, as JFJ puts it: 100% Jewish and 100% Christian. On the other hand, I've heard of non-Jewish Christians who embrace Jewish culture and traditions (but still believe in Jesus) refer to themselves as Messianic Christians.
I came out of 'Hebrew roots' or 'torahism' after 25 years of being brought up in it. They refused to call themselves 'Christians' which always baffled me but called themselves 'new covenant Israelites', although they don't believe in a 'new' covenant but a 'renewed' one.
@@PimpGanstaPoet The Holy Spirit wasn't poured out in the Old Covenant at Mt. Sinai.
The Holy Spirit WAS poured out in the New Covenant.
You were brought up in the HRM? Wow.
@@carmensiekierke3579 yeah I was actually ordained as a teacher in the church (they preferred to be called a Congregation) and they kicked me out when I was doing an overview of the feasts teaching, I came to the realisation that we aren't obligated to keep them and certainly shouldn't if we remove the centrality of the cross, then replace it with feasts etc. They immediately kicked me out of the church after knowing them for 25 years and not even giving me a chance to reason with them. People who have been to my wedding, holidays etc, it totally has a cult mentality.
Anyhow, you are totally correct about the Holy Spirit and the old covenant.
@@PimpGanstaPoet It's very sad to read of your experience. Did that take you by surprise that they wouldn't listen.....even a little?
The book of Hebrews is my favorite book because it's main theme is "Jesus is better."
Israel was a type and shadow ( picture) of the Church. The deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage and the establishment of the Israelite kingdom in the paradise land of Canaan was a divine act of redemption and restoration. It was an Old Testament picture God gave us of the New Testament redemptive work of Christ with the Kingdom of God thus redemptively set up in the promised land of Sabbath rest. God's people separated from the world living in God's presence in a holy land....which in one sense pictures the Church in what is called the "not yet": Christ's return and establishment of the Kingdom on the new heavens, new earth, and new Jerusalem. The "already" ...is the Church on this earth, following the Lord and obeying Him in His redemptive kingdom.
"Remove the centrality of the cross and replace it with feasts." Very accurate. How did you come to see this?
Correction: All of us Jews are messianic in some form or fashion.
The problem isn’t Jesus’s existence or what he taught that divide us. Jesus taught a repentance to God and his law. Jesus also upheld the rulings of the Sanhedrin. He fought and argued with SOME leaders of his time who were elevating local traditions to level of Torah during a politically charged point in Jewish history. Heck this is still going on in Judaism today and will continue until we Jews go back to following the Torah and what it’s sanctions. In other words we have our own problems too.
That being said, It’s the actions and opinions of a rabbi named Paul that We take issue with. Paul was an esoteric Jewish man with mystical opinions not unlike many Jews of his time.
Paul’s ideas and words were later elevated to a divine level by the church. The church took the word of a single man who had a secret meeting with a ghostly entity and discarded the the the instructions God gave in front of millions of paganistic Hebrews and Gentiles with great signs and wonders. The great redemption of BOTH groups because of their faith and not their observance of the law. For the Law had not yet been given. This is what Paul was speaking to in reference to being “grafted” into the commonwealth of a new nation called Israel, God’s first born son. It is the great conversion of humanity choosing God and his Law over anything else. As more convert to this way of thinking they are also “converted” into the covenant. This is why God says “ ..first born son” indicating there will be more to come.
From this Paulist pulpit the church committed massive atrocities to humans around the globe and made room for even more false religions to develop.
Paul’s private letters made public didn’t lead to world wide unity among God’s people but divisions so wide that they may never recover.
Just read the comments sections of any Christian video. It’s nearly all centered around the contradicting arguments of Paul sprinkled with supporting extra Pauline verses. Each Christian denomination and movement does this in order to claim “truth”. Meanwhile the simple truth is that they are arguing over a human man and his world view. Christianity and therefore Christians will include or exclude others as saints or heretics based on how they interpret Paul. Worse the Church will take it even further by condemning each other to the fabled burning fires of hell for a wrong interpretation of Paul’s (a human being) private letters.
-My point in writing this is to point out that Christianity doesn’t speak for us. If you want to know why Jews reject Christianity, ask a Jew not a Christian pastor.
If there are Torahist that believe that Jesus is the son of God rather than God, then they are right on that. Everything else, mainly that we Christians should keep the Torah as given by Moses, they are wrong on.
However I know that you, Rob, believe that Jesus is God incarnate (in a very one-for-one sense) and that God is triune.
Would you say anyone that obeys Torah would be in "Torahism"? I do what I can to obey Torah because I do believe it is required of anyone that considers themselves included in Israel. Not for salvation in that Abraham himself was considered righteous by faith. No one can receive the promises apart from faith in Jesus, and Jesus is God. In another video you implied that all of the law of Moses is not in effect. I would think that that logic would imply it's ok now to lie, murder, steal ect.. as is described in Torah. I have heard of the Law of Christ and it being decided as love God and love you Neighbor, these being the only commands to obey. Lying, stealing, murder would all fall into this "moral" law of Christ. Was it not Torah that taught us what is moral? And could not the "moral" law be summed up by saying love Jesus and be a good person? Even outside of Torah I would not have agreed that being a good person had any role in salvation and neither would I say that about obeying Torah. However, if I claim to live in Him, then I must do what Jesus did. So it's pretty simple to me: Did Jesus obey Torah, not just lying stealing and murdering? I believe he obeyed Sabbath, Observed the Feasts and more. And he did it as a man (though he was God), so I also will do it because I know it pleases the heart of the Father. This is not to be debated but I think I represent another dot on your line that you only included in a spectrum that is not part of what you believe is the majority of people that obey Torah. There are many more of us like me but I can agree that there is a wide spectrum and there are some that sadly have warped even Torah to the point that they deny Jesus as God and even the only way of salvation.
Hi, Matt. Torahism is technically defined as "A theology that teaches followers of Jesus are required to keep the Torah, aka the Law of Moses." The majority of those who practice Torahism do not believe it is a matter of salvation, but of obedience. But there are some versions of this theology which teach that salvation comes through Torah.
As far as doing what Jesus did, there is an important distinction to be made. Jesus was Jewish. As a Jewish man born under the Law, His mission on earth required that He keep the Law of Moses perfectly so that He would be qualified as a sinless representative of Israel (Gal 4:4-5). Israel was never able to keep the Law, which was given as the terms of the Mosaic Covenant (Ex 19). As a result, Israel broke that covenant (Jer 31:31-34) and that covenant ended (Heb 8:13). But God promised a New Covenant, which was inaugurated in the blood Christ (Luke 22:20).
Under the New Covenant, many of the Torah commandments were fulfilled and are no longer required. They were given as shadows that pointed to the Real Thing: Jesus (Col 2:16-17; Heb 10:1). And many things have changed under the New Covenant. Now...
"the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Gal 5:14).
"You shall love the Lord your God....You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matt 22:37-40)
"for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law" (Rom 13:8).
"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well" (James 2:8)
Here's another video I made that might be helpful:
*How do we walk like Jesus walked?* ua-cam.com/video/JmRwtkRtcN4/v-deo.html
Blessings,
Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots thanks for taking the time to reply. The distinction between Jews and Isreal is something I don't really understand. The law was given to the nation Isreal not just the tribe of Judah. The point that Jesus was obligated to the law because he was Jewish is only in part. It would be more accurate to say "because he was apart of Israel". As Christians, our faith is greatly if not completely founded on the promise to Abraham, then to Isaac, and then to Jacob (Isreal). Isreal is God's chosen people among all the nations. Jesus is the fullfilment of the promise. If our faith be in Jesus then we are heirs according to the promise given to Abraham. We, being gentiles, are not strangers among Gods people anymore, we are fellow citizens with Gods people of Isreal. We become adopted Isrealites with the same inheritance. There is more to this point but I think you get where I'm going. The law applies to anyone that is an heir of Abraham because it is the heir of Abraham, that is Isreal, that the promised Messiah belongs. There is no Jew or Gentile in Jesus. One people, one law. Now if someone still sees themself as not part of Isreal, then I can in some ways see how they get to the Laws of the Old Testament are not for them, though I would still disagree. As a side note. I see Hebrews much differently in regards to what changed in the law. Thanks again for taking time to read and reply. I very much appreciate thIs exchange
@@mattclevenger8598 Hi, Matt. Yeah, the terminology can get tricky because so many words are used equivocally. In biblical categories, the term "Jew" is not used to exclusively refer to the members of the tribe of Judah, but rather all physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac (who was also named "Israel"). _Israel,_ of course, is the name of the nation that these descendants eventually became. But in biblical categories, the term "Israel" is also used to refer to "God's People," rather than a political nation. And, as you pointed out, under the New Covenant, Gentiles have been accepted into the People of God. This is why Paul can refer to believers in Christ as "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16).
So I agree with you on "One people, one law," but the law God's people are under today is not the Law of Moses. The Law of God as expressed to us through Christ is NOT the same thing as the Law of Moses, which God expressed to ancient Israel. The *Law of God* does not change. But the way YHWH expresses it to His people does. Not because YHWH has changed, but because His people have. And it is also because of the work of Christ that some things have changed. For example, under Moses, we atoned for sin through the blood of animals at the temple. Under Jesus, our sin has been atoned for "once for all" (Heb 10:10) through the eternal sacrifice of Christ. How do we fulfill the Law of God today under the New Covenant? By loving God and loving our neighbor.
“You shall love the Lord your God …You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matt 22:37-40)
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son… he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the *righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us,* who walk … according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:3-4)
"for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law...Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom 13:8, 10)
"For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Gal 5:14)
"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Gal 6:2)
"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (James 2:8)
@@TheBiblicalRoots it is so interesting to me how close yet at the same time how far our beleifs are from one another. We can totally agree yet totally disagree at the same time. I really can't dispute what you say except that right and wrong, love and hate, good and bad, are all subject to a person's perspective when the laws influence is taken out. When I study the "law of Mose" I can see how it makes clear the line that distinguishes these concepts that the broad term of love is left to the individual to determine. The world also defines love, but what distinguishes the love of the world from the love of God? I believe the law teaches us how to love that is different from the love the world offers. We could say that Christ demonstrated God's love and we have that example, TRUE! But, Yeshua was under the law, to your point, so if he is our example of what love looks like, and His love was in accord with Torah, then our love should also be in accord with Torah In the same way. If our love is anything else, then there will be discrepancies with our love when compared to Christ. I think this is a pitfall within Christianity, that we have not properly defined what love is, so we go to the world to settle our disputes with one another rather than to statues of God to decide what is right. We could say that the law is written on our heart, TRUE! But even Paul describes a senario when he couldn't trust his heart about sin. He says he wouldnt know sin had the law not revealed it to him. In essence, he knew the law and practiced it so he could test his heart to know what sin, and I believe, even what love is. The ability to hear and obey the Spirit of God is something cultivated over time from what I have witnessed. We get it wrong so often. I think this makes the one not instructed in Torah particularly vulnerable to sin and false view of what love is. Though they have great intent and they are doing what they think is right, they lack the judgements of God given in Torah. Thanks again for reading.
Shalom RL ! let me add this.... much torahists as you call them do not believe Yeshua is not divine as you said. On the contrary, the most popular ones believe like Trinitarian, the others like Oneness Pentecostal ! just a very few like me have my position you know on Torah, and are also believing like me Yeshua was born like you and I, became partaker of The Spirit of Holiness ! as his brothers !
Be blessed !
you lie many believe in the divinity of jesus.
My thoughts are Torah was not written to me, or given me as a command. How many times must a human read this before they understand the Bible study principle of who is speaking and who is the audience.