The White Fragility Theory with Glenn Loury [MINI CLIP]
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2020
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This recording was created at an event hosted by the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, that featured myself alongside Glenn Loury, who, as many of you know, is an economist at Brown University and host of the Glenn Show at Blogging Heads. I thought the conversation was a good one, so I'm releasing it as a standalone podcast. This conversation is a big picture discussion of the problem of race in America today, the narratives that compete for space in the mainstream media and the path forward.
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I was told in class recently that I needed to “tread carefully as a white person” and to “stay in my lane” because I was talking about a book I had read about Native American spirituality and stereotypes. In practice this concept is demeaning, condescending, and psychologically abusive to everyone including to POCs. It’s a concept that will eventually lead to re-emerging of segregation.
Completely agree. Here is a great article by John McWhorter (a black intellectual) that lays out the case webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mBTSduqO5ckJ:www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Whoever said that to you seems to be caught up in their egoic power and may have a limited worldview that can only see conflict as a means of resolution. I'm really sorry to hear you had to be exposed to that. ❤️
Most importantly it’s just plain racist and dumb - no matter the sophistry and political utility.
say “threaten me again you pussy”
Lord Solar lol I like your style
Coleman Hughes never ceases to impress me. Not only is he extremely bright, and his thoughts formulated by extreme attention to facts and data, but you can also tell by his mannerisms that he is one of the few intellectuals that actually listens to others and processes what they are saying. That is why he doesn’t shout people down, get emotional or act like a petulant child when others disagree with him. We strongly need a lot more people like him.
Because he agrees with your own opinions?
If you read what I said, it is pretty clear why I am a fan. Facts and data, not emotion. You have no idea what my opinions are, nor if they are the same as Coleman’s. Your response is the exact emotional, no fact response that is the problem with most people having an intellectual conversation.
John Smith No I think that he’s an example for how anyone could participate in dialogue amicably even when you disagree with the opinion being presented. He was recently interviewed by Bill Maher and positioned purposely a crusts and issue from the other guest and his ability to be able to express his position and invite the Continued engagement in dialogue from all participants is an example to us all.
@@hlewis5847 Well, they don't seem to follow his suite. Look at the people attacking me for saying that white fragility is legitimate concept.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn You attacked John Gilligan rather than writing your own response and then think you are attacked when respectful people differed from you. Writing better conversationally, less attacking, obviously goes better.
Six months ago I went into a McDonald's. It wasn't very busy - only one person was standing at the counter being served. As I stood there, three black women rushed in and one stepped right behind the person being served. I didn't say anything but then one of her friends pointed out that I may not have been served yet. She turned, looked at me and said, "You gonna have to check your privilege." And then she proceeded to order.
I was completely confused as to her meaning. Since that day I have learned a lot about "White Privilege" and "Critical Race Theory" . In a sense I experienced some of its effects before knowing what it was.... It was very ugly in practice.
By the way, to the credit of her friends, they allowed me to order after she was done. They seemed horrified by her behavior.
Selfie or it didn't happen.
Don't believe everything you hear on the internet, folks.
I am gonna use the priviledge of being here in first place... No matter the color, it is the way it works to civilized people.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn I have personally experienced and seen countless examples like hers.
John Smith - reading your comment on the Internet and following your advice
I want to add that at first I thought nothing of her 'cutting into line' because I was hanging back. It wasn't necessarily obvious I was directly in line or waiting to order. She may well have thought I had ordered already and was just waiting on my food. So in that sense, I really didn't care. I was in no hurry and she seemed to be in a hurry, for whatever reason.
What threw me off was that once she realized I had not ordered yet, it just didn't matter to her... or if it did, she seemed to think her statement about checking my privilege had some sort of VETO power over normal curtesy. And it didn't come out hostile or rude. It came across as mater of fact. It was just very odd to me. It was a bit later when I heard the phrase in another context that I put it all together and understood why she had said that.
In day to day communication, I would say that if one person accuses another of fragility or tells someone to check their privilege, the conversation is immediately finished.
@Pica Pica Too true! To make a long story short, I had a customer, I had previously worked with, ask me to work in a way that wasn’t legal for me. So I suggested that he hire a licensed contractor. He told me “to get off my high horse and work this out.” I didn’t respond back it him.
I disagree that tell someone to 'check their privilege' immediately finishes a conversation. There needs to be context. Sometimes it is way off base, and other times its a way of telling someone to take a moment and realize that not everyone moves through the world the same as you and you need to stop and take a min to consider their perspective.
@@conniq1585 It's just bad manners. I can't think of an appropriate situation where an adult simply asserts themselves and starts correcting another adult. Unless you want to make it obvious that you don't think the person you're talking to is your equal. You can't create unsolicited 'learning opportunities' without seeming a bit jumped up. Most people will immediately recognise the insult and completely ignore anything you have to say. Seriously? Plenty of people would slap you silly.
I grew up on people like MLK. My mom was a prime example of a self-empowering female. Grandparents fought the "notsees" and half lived through communism.
My point:
I just don't get the hatred, bigotry, lack of grace and humility, thought policing and other low resolution mental pathologies trending in post-modernist "tolerance doctrines".
Worst thing about this whole charade is that book is one of the top selling books in america, and people actually believe it.
I bought the book just to see what it was all about. That way I could feel like I had a legitimate opinion about it. So not everybody who has read it buys into it. Unfortunately it's still supports her and her ideas and I wish I hadn't thought it for that reason.
I couldn’t imagine reading something so stupid and I’m black
Jimmy Fallon had the author on his show and totally kissed her ass, as though she wasn’t a race hustling charlatan. It was sickening.
@@Katie-xj1cf you shouldn’t give your money to people trying to cause division within society.
@@stevenicol1 yeah I realize that now but I can't take it back. I see how detestable this ideology is now. Explaining postmodernism by Stephen Hicks it's a great book to help explain the philosophy behind what's going on now. I think that was money well spent.
The one dislike is Robin DiAngelo.
This is an underrated comment
The notion of white fragility is just standard psychology; there's nothing controversial about it in the least.
@ No group is above retort, not even white people.
Christopher Hensley 😂😂😂 Best comment ever!!!
its actually Ta-Nehisi Coates from his chateau in southern France.
Coleman, you are so lucky you don't know anyone who treats White Fragility like a recipe for how to live lol.
White people tell me all the tie that I have a "victim complex" because I believe in white privilege. It is the equivalent to white fragility.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn you do have victim complex if you believe this. 👍. Focus on yourself more and less on others and you'll do great. Life isn't fair, never has been and never will be. You're confusing class with race. Go be great 👍
@@sarahmacdonald5405 why can't he focus on both?
@@radicallefty7069 why would you focus on other people when trying to better yourself or find success? Who does that?
@@sarahmacdonald5405 your assessment of what is a proper reflection of reality has nothing to do with your success or lack thereof. Making sure you succeed and making social observations are not mutually exclusive exercises. People are perfectly able to both achieve and make any necessary social observations they wish.
I grew up as a very very very small minority in a third world country for almost two years. My woke peers hate that they can't use the same, "you're white, so you don't know," ad hominem line with me. It's racist and offensive to be so invalidated as an individual when they put me in with that collective.
What country and what minority are you if you don't mind me asking?
@@pinkisforpimpsI don't mind you asking if you explain why you're asking first.
@@RachelDee I'm just curious to know because I was thinking exactly this same thing. A lot of these liberals pushing this critical race theory agenda only know the usa society and nothing else. So it would be helpful to me to know examples of other countries and minorities
@@pinkisforpimps Yes that's the irony. Whiteness and white supremacy is now synonymous with promoting western civilization as better when most people haven't seen things that are objectively worse elsewhere in the world.
I appear very pale/white and I was in Bolivia. I had to take training before going over on how to not get raped or drugged. There's just warning signs for muggers thrown up at the tourist spots because the government doesn't care to crack down on it and protect anyone. Sometimes we couldn't buy basic things if the vendor had a belief that white people were unlucky towards their business. Or I had to pay in exact amounts for transportation because they straight up said, "You're not Bolivian," assuming I was more wealthy and withheld my change if I didn't. My mom took her written driver's test in the main language there (Spanish) and the supervisor intentionally tried to hint at wrong answers to get her to fail. My initial host family's neighborhood started getting more criminal activity because we were seen in the area and they were trying to find which house we were in. I have friends that have lived all over and most of them say similar or worse things even if they tried assimilating. Just some examples.
@@RachelDee I appreciate you sharing your story.
I graduated in 69 got into the laborers union,waited on the bench like everyone else,when a job was open for a few to work pick and shovel on a road crew , the black kid I was talking to didn’t want the job ,he told me it was too reminiscent of slavery days ,,$4 dollars an hour,, double over 8 hours,, health and well fair, dental and eyeglasses,, after 700 hours,,,I couldn’t understand the logic then,,that was more money than our parents made,,the trades were good to me,,nothing wrong with hard work,,it’s a lot easier to change your environment when you have a trade under your belt,,
So glad to finally hear somebody else say it: Being friends with someone who takes white fragility seriously is damned near impossible.
I know a girl who has come to revere White Fragility as holy scripture. Always publicly self-flagellating on social media, trying to be a good white.
She used to be pleasant to be around. Now she’s just a self-righteous, wet-blanket wokescold. I get what Coleman means when he says it would be hard to be friends with someone like that.
I had a customer, who years ago, got on the anti-white train. She tried to guilt me on board. Interestingly, she is white, lesbian and has a white boy. When the boy was 15-16, he became “uncontrollable” and they sent him off to a camp school. He learned how to be somewhat self reliant, was respected by his peers and the camp leaders. Basically, found his self worth. Came “home” to the same toxic environment that he left. I hope he found enough inner strength to become a responsible young man.
It confounds men that anyone can view another person with such hate especially when it is your own flesh and blood.
The concept of “white privilege” originally was a poorly written hypothetical concept, not a peer reviewed theory. It was popularized by a pseudo-intellectual that was far from an expert on the subject she wrote about. White Fragility is another example of a poorly written concept, that has a predetermined position on the subject she writes about..
I don’t disagree that systemic racism is historically real, nor do I make the argument oppression never existed but the concept of “white privilege” doesn’t accurately describe the events of the past (or take into account diversity of cultures within what we now call “white”). A better concept to describe systemic injustice is simply to say “oppression”. Throughout history, ruling elites and/or majority populations have oppressed the minority population and/or the poor.
Another issue is lumping all people into one group, as if all white people had ancestors here or all benefited from racism. Which isn’t true, all people viewed as white today sure weren’t considered “white” by those very same racists they are being conflated with. Conflating skin color as racial identity in and of itself is highly subjective and flawed. Heritage, cultural identity and race are more than just looking at skin color and throwing everyone that has similar skin tones in the same bucket. Fighting against racism with racism isn’t goIng to lead to a better society for all (a “we” society).
@Fred Williams Your comment applies to what I said how?
@@GhostSal I think he's giving an example of what CRT proponents would say about those countries that are majority white and applying their logic to the reverse to black majority countries. When we apply it in the reverse the logic fails.
@@GhostSal I know. You misunderstood. I think he is on your side and is presenting the logic of the other side. Hope that makes sense.
@Fred Williams dummy, no one is "keeping" the country racially the same. Brazil is one of the most diverse countries in the world -facepalm-. Africa is a continent -facepalm- Notice how people don't even care to name a country in africa, its just, thats where black people are...
Mexico is predominent (mestizo or mixed race) not hard to google any of this.
@@GhostSal Triple thumbs up. Thank you for articulating something I was struggling with. Peace ☮️
Here's what happened to me. One late afternoon I was walking through a south Chicago neighborhood to a bookstore. All of a sudden, some rocks shower around me. It's teen black boys throwing railroad ballast from the above Metra rail line. They called me racist names. I hadn't known they were there until the rocks came down. I just walked fast away; they were elevated and couldn't hit once I was out of range. So, yeah, black people can be racist. So can other folks.
By definition; racism includes two additional factors those black boys don’t have; 1) authority and 2) power. They can be prejudice though. 🤷♀️
There was once a time when I made excuses for the rioters in Ferguson and my black friend didn't. I'll never forget how that got my wheels turning. I would later remember having once been assaulted by four black men and feeling sorry for THEM. As I really began to dig into it, I could see that I had been conditioned to walk on egg shells throughout my youth; having grown up in an extremely culturally diverse community---and that upbringing had indeed subtly tilted the scales in my favor by insinuating that I was somehow better equipped to handle abuse. What a bunch of hog wash. All it really was was an excuse to heap more on me. Today, my family includes a young black woman who came to us from an abusive home months after she turned 18 and by then we had adopted the philosophy that no one gets kid-gloves; no one gets charity; just loving kindness and understanding---huge difference. Everybody works for the things they get. We talk about every subject no matter how difficult. We disagree. We agree. We do whatever it takes to stay connected. This is what our country needs to accomplish. We need to stop babying people and treating them like children who can't make decisions or who don't know how to take responsibility for their actions. Every community needs work in some respects. We all need to have the courage to look at those things and we all need to participate in this type of discussion where we're all just people trying to understand each other---not through the lens of our skin, but heart to heart.
Exactly! Live your life! If you offended someone, then that's on them and they can cry all they want and make a fool out of themselves
I was a white photographer taking wedding pictures at an all black event, and the abuse I received makes me laugh at these theories of racial abuse only against blacks. After one of the "guests" threatened to smash my camera, I walked out because all the blacks who heard his threat smiled, laughed, or otherwise congratulated him. Weeks later the bride came to see me and cussed me out for leaving, not once apologizing for the way I was treated, although she acknowledged the most virulent abuser was "her good friend and had reasons to treat me that way."
Im so sorry you had to deal with that. I really hope things get better for you.
That’s truly horrific. I’m sorry that that happened. This year has made me see a really ugly side of people. I’ve never seen or heard so many people justify hatful, abusive, violent behavior in the name of “equality and justice” in my life.
@RetiredBaywatchLifeguard we only talk about white racism . I’ve seen Hispanics and whites both victims of racist violence from blacks . It’s just not talked about though
Yes, I'm sick of seeing how people claim whites are the only ones to be racist. I'm Asian and received the most racism and most vile from African Americans. Getting called a chin* to my face, spit on, mock my native language, etc and when I said do not call me that my face was pounded into the wall. But they can't be racist and are innocent bc of the "oppression". I do NOT think all blacks are racist as I think there bad apples in all races. But the double standard is alarming
After hearing Coleman and James Lindsay I took the time to read “ Whiteness in racial dialogue: a discourse analysis”. Coming from a science background I cannot understand how a PhD can be obtained with such a unscientific paper. 13 participants our of how many approached? Social sciences deserve to be analyzed in a scientific non ideological biased way. Having been an European worker from a poor country in a richer country I can relate to the stereotypes and the standing out. But I felt more inclined to having the confidence that your character and value of your work will eventually speak for itself instead of victimization or self doubt. Came back with great experiences, relationships and some friendships I maintain until today.
Can Coleman be President??? Like now. Or can he come up to Canada and be our Prime Minister. A sensible person who actually listens to liberals and conservatives like they all have something to offer is a breath of fresh air. It's also the only way forward for society.
Black AND White people are complicit in this "soft bigotry of lower expectations". ( Thanks, W! ) I had to figure this out for myself since my Black social circle could not handle my disagreeing with them on anything having to do with "Race". Some were brash enough to intimate that only they "get it". Add to that TOO many of my White social circle who just want to support/empathize or not be viewed as "racist" when they might slightly or strongly disagree with the Status Quo Black Opinion on virtually anything. It's condescending, if not racist, to only agree, never question as to a Black individual's supporting evidence for a judgment or claim, or offer up ecstatic praise for something actually wrong a Black individual does.
@Konate Lilas Why would I give two sh*ts about how Black people feel about my "Whiteness", given that it comes off pretty manipulative and racist already with such a loaded sentiment? In the spirit of "dialog", do they care how I feel about their "Blackness"? Actually, I don't, because it is respectful to take each individual as unique unto themselves, meaning there are millions of African-Americans that don't obsess over their Blackness as much as they want to be treated with dignity as a human being. You know, like every human being.
You label my not caring as "fragility"; I call your judgment either: ignorant; narcissistically manipulative; Authoritarian; power play; throw in racist since it's rather chic still to hurl it at one's debate opponent.
I call your default pre-judgment of Whites being racist as a cunning underlying racism that "you" obviously know what drives a person more than the person themselves. How smart you are! How...racist you are? If you are not White.
"Rule # 1. Do not make your blackness the major source of your identity. White people like their black people colorless. Now to accomplish this focus on things that make you the sane instead of different by looking at other identifiers."
Oh, the pain. Have you taken advantage of too many Whites who will not dare to differ with you or call out your superficial and gross generalizations? Given the powerful impact of Black Culture upon America many Whites have "appropriated" Black-ness as an act of Respect and Honor. And, if anything, liked Black people a bit superficially and stereotypically, as if every Black individual loves Hip-Hop or the NBA or Jazz? But, you are truly blind to the good-will efforts of the many Whites who like and love fellow Americans in the Black Community, as the good and decent people they are, including the growing numbers of Black Conservatives that many other types of Americans align with in values and love of the country. There are many people across the spectrum of skin tones and hues who think being "color-blind" is a healthy and progressive step towards a greater America. EX: We are all Americans ( not hypenated-Americans ). But, if that triggers you, of course it doesn't mean that I actually erase color, i.e. "He's not Black!?!" LoL. Nor do I erase the "White" gal from being White. But these things are superficial and incredibly boring to obsess over. But, don't let me stop you. It's a free country.
Seriously...why so paranoid? Why so blind to the blatant manipulations of certain African-Americans ( politicians/entertainers/athletes ) who demand Groupthink march-step-or-you're-not-Black Cultural Marxists? To the extent that there are Whites who don't care much for Black Culture, that speaks to the very minor point you are making. OR...try to think outside the box...they just aren't into "Black Culture", rather other cultures and tastes. Oh, the horror! lol
Embrace a sense of proportion and strike down any prejudice and racism in your own soul. Gotta expand your horizons and deepen the mental possibilities. Critical Thinking. Yay!
Highly recommend watching the whole interview. Glenn and Coleman were on point and dropping bombs
The people who need to watch this probably won't. As it would (ironically) require some critical thinking (lol) to refute these points. Something the CRT protagonists seem unwilling to do.
The concept of white fragility is just bog-standard psychology. To me, white fragility simply speaks to the way in which white people engage with certain ideas like white privilege and white racism. Any notion of these things is met with hostility, bad faith, poor argumentation and reasoning, insults and claims of "racism" against white people. White fragility to me is white people leading with their feelings on topics that ostensibly admonish whites, instead of facts. If I said that black people are fragile on the topic of criminality in their neighborhoods, virtually no white person would feign ignorance about what that means, nor would they suggest that I am a racist for proclaiming such. I don't disagree that there is a fair bit of bias when talking to most black people about the problems of their group, but whites have that same bias in regards to notions of white racism, privilege, etc. So, the word white fragility is not anything new, it is bog-standard psychology, and is not intrinsically offensive. Obviously it can be used as a cudgel to try and gaslight someone's point of view, but the same can be said of comments like "you just have a victim complex", a comment the seems to be made ubiquitously by whites any time a black person makes some claim about racism. The point is that white fragility can indeed exist independently regardless of whatever motivations detractors of your arguments have.
John Smith are you Robin DiAngelo incognito or just a bog-standard racist? “White people”....have you tried asking some non-white people from diverse backgrounds what they think of “white fragility” and our current discourse? Because I’m not white, and my friends who are currently overseas think this stuff is insanity. Since they’re not in America they’re not afraid to say so. The idea of people being uncomfortable talking about “racial” issues in America comes from years of being guilted into feeling like there’s only one very specific thing you’re allowed to do/feel/say but that one thing keeps changing according to activists’ whims. I’ve even fallen into that guilt trap and I’m not even white. It prevents people from truly examining problems from multiple angles & trying to find different solutions to them.
@@crayola8skies You are on point. I am not white and I find the concepts presented in white fragility horrific. It makes me immensely glad I'm no longer living in America where these ideologies are being accepted as mainstream.
John Smith - Please do teach us all about 'bog standard' psychology it sounds sooooo.........
These two intellectuals are on my favorites list. I wish I could have a discussion as eloquently as these guys.
Remember folks God doesn't see color when he gives his blessings.
where the fvck was god during Reconstruction and jim fvcking crow?
I stay as far away from people that subscribe to this madness as I can get without one apology.
To answer Glenn about how I would react being the only woman on the team... I'd be happy because it would usually mean less drama. But in all honesty, it would only be a problem if I believe that most men would treat me poorly. But then I would be the one that is prejudiced. Judge others by their action, not their appearance.
I understand your response. My wife works for the Girl Scouts --- all women there except for a small gay guy. It's a hothouse.
Coleman, Glenn, as always, thank you.
Wise and honest but.... true "minority" position.
No, it is quite a popular opinion.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn hope you're right.
Can you help me understand what "minority" means in this comment... Particularly how the quotation marks affect meaning? Asking from a position of open enquiry. Thanks
@@MrGuanyin He was saying few people hold this view, which is sad.
@@logicallion2196 thank you for helping me understand. It is sad but hopefully intelligent interviews like this will help this view become a majority view.
Thank you for the courage to simply stand for common sense and decency in these dark times!
We are all fragile, because we are human. No matter how we present ourselves to the world, we are sensitive, we miscommunicate sometimes, we try our best, we sometimes fail. Why can’t we try to just give each other the benefit of the doubt?
This Coleman kid is a future all-star. One of the brightest up and comers no doubt.
Intellectualism
I was introduced to Coleman a little over a year ago By sam Harris .. Was so impressed back then .. Recently i found .. glenn loury & john mcwhorter When those to talk .. I listen !!!
Coleman Hughes and Glenn Loury are happy to sing and dance and take turns playing the HNIC for all their gentle white folk friends.
White fragility is basically a bully concept, in the same way as calling someone "defensive" when they disagree with a criticism made of them. There's no answer to the charge of defensiveness. If you object, you're just being more defensive; if you don't object, you accept the idea that you're being defensive. Exactly the same with white fragility. Another warning sign is that it's supposedly impossible to get rid of white fragility; in other words, the Robin DiAngelo's of the world have you over a barrel. Not only are you irrevocably racist, you'll need to take my course for the rest of your live, and even then, you'll still be racist. The only remarkable thing about any of this is that anybody with sense falls for it.
If I was debating with a Black person, and dismissed their objections as "Black fragility", I expect there would be a massive scene and I would be regarded as racist thereafter.
That is how I regard those who dismiss my opinions as "Black fragility".
Well said 🙌
Happened on this by accident, very thoughtful quality content, subscribing now.
I refuse to treat anyone as less than my equal. I will not hold back if I think they’re wrong and I will also listen to their point of view. We don’t need any of this ‘Anti-racism’ ‘white fragility’ nonsense. We just need empathy, understanding, and a willingness to learn.
I love the way Glenn Loury looks at Coleman Hughes.
I think understand what you mean, flip. He's like a proud papa listening to his brilliant son- realizing he's grown into a very good man. Not weird at all.
gardenernut5 Exactly! I wasn’t trying to be weird. You can just see the admiration he has for Coleman.
whattheflip oo Yes, it’s a paternal and admiring look. I see it.
I like his white beard !
sweet, sweet sanity
So if I express my opinion I'm wrong if I'm white, if I don't and I'm white I'm wrong...where does it end?
Man I love how your key image matches the app background. Really slick.
"...reduces the other to the ontological status of children" -someone on identity politics as a white liberal, it might have been Zizek
The book gave me the hope that anybody can write a book....no matter how good or bad it is haha
Very well thought out and expressed position. Thx guys!
I include you, I'm wrong...I exclude you, I'm wrong...where does it end?
I appreciated this video and the people in it .
This framework creates an environment of hypersensitivity in which people are divided arbitrarily. Imagine being in a kindergarten class and telling the children that everyone with blonde hair is an evil oppressor and everyone else is a victim of their subconscious superiority. This would very quickly devolve into lord of the flies. Kids are brutal and we are all just kids a few years removed. It's a sickening way to destroy public discourse or teamwork of any kind in an organization. I think the motives are truly dark and evil buried in altruistic language. Please keep exposing the slimy tactics of this ideology!
It already is lord of the flies. Kids believe that white kids are superior, and this has widespread ramifications for black people. The hypothetical you've outlined has already happened to black people lol. I'd much rather try and combat that.
John Smith I don’t think that’s a true assertion. Children aren’t racist. The wonderful thing about children is that they’re drawn to character, not race.
John Smith makes the mistake of assuming white people are as hateful as he is
@@MsChitterchat Children of a certain age aren’t racist or better yet they don’t recognize “differences” yet.
Sadly that’s already happening in kindergarten class. Or at least third grade, as a report I saw today. The kids are being made to identify themselves as far as class, race, gender and sexuality. Fucking third graders dude.
The world has embraced some terrible ideas (imo) but what is interesting to me is that those ideas have pushed these kinds of conversations to the surface and brought people together that might share similar views in their respective circles. When the crowd is shouting, these kinds of quiet conversations become more valuable to me because they can dig past the hysteria and are focused. It's not just my camp vs your camp.
Ben Shapiro may be fun to watch (Yes, I'm a Conservative. Breath. It'll be ok) but he doesn't always help his opponent see his viewpoint.
You guys really are vocalizing my core values and that's a little crazy because everyone is shouting that we're all different and we don't need to understand one another. Then once the labeling and name-calling starts, it's over.
Then to live in an age where we can view it anywhere. Not just in colleges and universities. 🤯
Best of times, worst of times kinda thing.
Short version: mind blown. Thank you!
I wish more people were aware of this content.
'Those who fight monsters should take care not to become monsters themselves'.
That would be a far more useful quote if it wasn't from Nietzsche, lol.
@@ullscarf do people hate Nietzsche now? cheezus i can't keep up. I thought he was a brilliant dude
@@LipSyncLover I don't know but he was a major influence on Hitler.
@@ullscarf i looked it up just because i was curious and in case you're intrigued, sounds like his philosophy was hijacked....and the man himself ended friendships because said friends were anti-semites.
good read
bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/how-the-nazis-hijacked-nietzsche-and-how-it-can-happen-to-anybody
@@LipSyncLover Yes. My light-hearted point was that quoting Nietzsche when criticizing Critical Race Theory might not be a good idea as he is (rightly or wrongly) associated with white supremacy.
Starts as a noble pursuit, but Coleman nailed it. You can’t use race as catch 22, unlivable.
People, we already have enough s**t worry about in our lives, and the debate on the race is and always be endless. When things are complicated, make it simple by just be respectful and be a decent human being as a starter.
I wouldn't argue pro or con about racism, sexism, any "ism" but I see each person as an individual. Everyone has their personal experience, point of view, etc.
Love his response.
Where can I see the full video?
I wish I could somehow exclude these teasers from my subscriptions tab. At first when the clip arrives, I always click it and get disappointed that it's just a clip. And then afterwards when the actual full length discussion is uploaded I also have a duplicate decoy thumbnail there, that I always end up clicking again.
Thank you for this. My brother has taken great offense that I am more interested in learning calculus, Stoicism and particle physics than in reading books similar to the one being discussed. I do not want to be estranged from my brother, but he has cut off communication. So unfortunate.
That's sad, man. I hope he can come to his senses, and you two can work things out.
I totally agree, don’t judge a book by its cover!! I’m from Philadelphia PA and grew up among all races and my husband and children are Black, she is talking about how she feels not how the majority thinks! Those her her own words and feelings not ours!!
In an interview Robin Diangelo said that the trouble with white people is that they consider themselves to be individuals. The implicit collary assumption, that black people don't consider themselves to be individuals, is so staggeringly racist i'm amazed she got away with it.
What I would dearly love is for someone like Coleman Hughes to have a debate with Robin about her book and demand that she abide by her own rules: - not to contradict him, not to be allowed to withdraw and stay silent, that she should humble herself before him, believe what he says to her and listen.
I just read this book, and it was hilarious.
Hey Coleman, why don't you approach Robin DiAngelo and explain that she MUST LISTEN AND AGREE WITH YOU, and then explain all this to her?
I'm afraid that wouldn't work as Coleman 'isn't really black' (the charge levelled at black people that don't agree with this nonsense).
Happy to see ppl like dis still exist I live in Atlanta an I can say there's a big rise on racism against white people and black people as a result I'm happy people that think like this are speaking I was getting nervous for a minute
We too often just want to deal with the social/cultural inequity of society when really its economical...people should be paid decently to take care of their families but the cultural bs has us fighting over who's the priority.
It's all a distraction to keep us from solving the actual problems affecting our societies
I haven't heard the term white fragility before this video so I hope you'll pardon my ignorance on the subject. From my personal experience as a child I was often treated differently by people of color compared to how they would treat their children or other children of color. Is it something reciprocal and not reliant on just the white person acting differently? Could it be that since I was raised differently as a white child I acted differently and that inadvertently changed the social dynamic ultimately having nothing to do with my race other than cultural upbringing? Even then it's hard for me to accurately gauge since I don't think I necessarily talked or acted like a kid my age regardless of my race.
Point 1 Loved Glenn Loury speaking of empathy and to see situations from several view points. Point 2 Going back to Coleman and the friendship theme. At some point when white, black, men and women or whatever the mix,really befriend each other normally they drop the filters. And dropping the filters and maintaining a symbiotic funny relationship where the other person really likes you as you are is (From a personal and an empirical point) not at all aligned with being politically correct.
A dangerous amount of intelligence is being displayed here- sensible views expressed about the multidimensional nature of individuals and not prescribing characteristics based upon group identity.
Yes indeed. When you don’t acknowledge the complexity of people and make them little nodes you remove their humanity.
Either Coleman, Lowry, or both should have a conversation with Dr. Quayshawn Spencer from Penn--would be infinitely interesting
Ppl stop looking at it as black and white.. And real issues can be addressed
Yes but due to people like Robin, we are doing the exact opposite! We are seeing everything through the lens of race. It’s terrible
So we should treat people as people and try for empathy and understanding not ideology and idiocy? I’m sold. Where do I sign up?
Glenn’s merely talking about empathy. The position could be reversed if a white person was in a foreign or non English country
Samsgarden Agree. I’ve been the only female amongst males many times - I work in the construction industry. While I encourage females to get into this industry I accept that it’s always going to be a mostly male environment and I don’t feel in anyway uncomfortable. I notice ways in which males try to be more inclusive around me, which I appreciate.
sarah Jolene Can you summarise this for me?
sarah Jolene I think to an extent it did at one point, I mean clearly under slavery and to a lesser extent economic inequality, you were better positioned being white but that isn’t the same as saying that whites don’t have systemic problems in their communities.
Loury 2020...I wish
Glenn Loury speaks with the same language that academics use when writing books. When I listen to him it feels like I am researching for a term paper. I realize he is an academic who has written those kinds of books but most of them(in my experience) speak more casually compared to their writing.
Just "Joined". So thats you and Sam H now. Fellows like you need to be uncancellable but do try to get on mainstream news if you can, Coleman. We really need you.
Yes how I feel.
This gent gets it! Color or gender is only a part of you, not the whole.
It's not just treating a black person as a child, it's treating that person as an infant.
How have I just seen your name? you give me hope that there is reasonable and logical thought still remaining in this country.
Whoa! A REAL dialogue.
Woo hoo yea for reason.
I just started that book today.
:-/
I cannot understand the perspective really of somebody who freaks out because - I am the only X in the room. (or wherever). It seems to me that as I have lived it, I have always been the only ME in the room. This isn't grade school or junior high where you need somebody to play with on the playground or sit with at lunch. Say it is work or university. I go into a classroom of strangers. Do I feel accepted somehow if they are mostly white? And scared if they are not? What difference does it make unless it is one of those classes (ugh) where you have to do a group project? In most cases, it is just about me doing my own work. I read the text, I work homework problems and take the tests. I never needed bunch of study buddies. In fact, I had one class where I had a sort of friend - a guy I knew from marching band. He said to me at one point "I hope you flunk." He was mad at me for skipping class (which I did a lot of in college (at this point, you can tell me it shows)).
In fact, I think my payroll accounting class was all female, except me. At least, looking back, I cannot remember any guys. And so what? Was it a hostile classroom for me? Nope. Seems to me that a hostile environment has more to do with the individuals than it does with some kind of classes or groups. In fact, I can remember, all too well, another work environment where the boss was a white male (and his boss was white female and her boss was a white male) and my other two subordinates were black males and there was an Asian woman. That was our janitorial team, my work environment. Was it some sort of advantage for me to be the same race and gender as my bosses? Hell, no. My psycho, paranoid boss abused me for years. The only way I finally got some relief was to step down into a part time position where the new full time guy, another white male, took the brunt of his abuse.
I noticed at a few workplaces, that the non-whites used to group up. Really, I envied them that. Seems like they came to work and had instant friends. That seemed like an advantage that I didn't have.
I can understand language isolation though. After 5 days in Europe, it felt so good to hear some Iowans chattering away on the train in Switzerland - auf Englisch, although my Swiss cousin was also fluent in Englisch, having spent several years in Australia, and both of my German cousins also spoke Englisch, but still ....So I can understand some isolation at being the only non German speaker in the room, or on the train.
The many flaws in her logic regarding wht privilege is that she is projecting her own racizt views onto all other wht people. She wasn’t discussing peer reviewed research, she was simply stating her opinions as some kind of societal truths (which they clearly are not, they are only her opinions).
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
That guy on the bottom is going to make Beverly Di Angelo mad.
If this theory existed in the hard sciences, it'd be decimated during the peer review process. The same can be said for Critical Race theory. For whatever reason, the social sciences tend to be more about advancing an agenda and not advancing human knowledge with an emphasis of actually helping humanity.
That's what real rational thought is. Thanks for having common sense.
When actions illicit a reaction this CRT and WF will result in unfortunate and fruitless consequences. I pray I am wrong but fear I am right. God be merciful to us.
As a white man, I love not knowing what they are talking about. Super refreshing to know that people who deeply care about whatever this is are probably really sad on the inside
Either a person has empathy or they do not ...but sometimes reflecting like a mirror only hides the the merging of two distinctly different images and their culture
Glen Loury 'kid glove' analogy was sadly so spot on and disturbingly funny but true. Specifically in regards to the liberal media that intentionally over-looks open violations of racism that they would never allow with whites. Specifically, anti inter-racial marriage (in mainstream media and in open conversation black people openly saying they are against it), open professions of racial superiority (literally go to any Afrocentric open mic in America), ranking other races in order of Godly importance (hegemony), believing that all original full-blooded native Americans are really black, or intentionally leaving out unfavorable statistics. And you will find these same white people behind closed doors saying yeah I am aware of all this, but they can't help it, society made them this way, one must be delicate with the issue, they're hoteps, they don't know any better... More black heterodox thinkers need to stand up to this condescending disrespect. And of course the other argument is there are other white people throughout history who are way worse, so ignore the seeds of pure racist hate that is growing...
Ya, we're all supposed to be able to have a conversation without it automatically being an argument.
If there's an assumption that all white people are racist, who makes that? What happened to people being individuals and having different experiences? What about white people who grew up with black friends?
I think the most important point is that black people can make up their own opinions, some have had a lot of bad racial experiences and have stuck with them, others have come through things and have a different perspective of seeing racism along with other hardships that aren't racial.
All too much of this relates hugely to wealth. What about poor white people who pull eachother down instead of respecting and learning from any of their peers who progress?
A lot of racial conversations are actually lead by white people talking down to other whites, and you don't get a different perspective from those who're supposed to be the victims of racial issues
Dead on👍🏻
One day i hope Coleman will seem actually excited to speak lmao
Who is hosting this conversation cause I swear I know her.
Everybody and everything are judged by their fruits.
Even "White Fragility" is a book and therefore sacred.
Based on the white fragility definition of racism anyone who has ever held the upper hand is exercising white privilege and therefore a racist. But there's also special case pleading and equivocation borrowing from our tradition of systemic oppression that a person of color cannot be a racist. So we can either recognize that the white fragility definition of racism is so broad and vague as to be meaningless, that everyone is a racist therefore no one is a racist, or we can recognize that the definition is ad hoc and circular making the definition an article of faith rather than an objective fact.
I'm curious how often Loury & Hughes encounter people who treat them with kid gloves compared to outright racism. I also wonder if they ask them politely to stop treating them like that.
I treat each person as they come. As a white guy, I have no fragility, but instead have to consciously resist thinking the black person before me, whom I'm talking to, is less educated. I let our conversation tell the tale. That said, 2020 is the year I ran into a good many black women who thought they were Genius Masters of the Universe, but were not.
That girl is adorable.
Should have never stopped whooping kids in school. Corporal Punishment was the only thing that left an impression into adulthood of all races that you need to be respectful first and foremost.
Did Stanley feel racism when he worked at the Office?
It took me years of reading as much literature on the topic as I could find to figure this out.
This stuff makes a lot more sense if you put the word Conspiracy before Theory.
As in Critical Race Conspiracy Theory or White Fragility Conspiracy Theory.
When the truth isn’t good enough conspiracy theories are born.
Told by a Latina nearly half my age that I couldn't speak about race because I am a privileged white man (my views are very similar to Coleman's and Glenn's). She has a BA in anthropology from the UC system. Made me sick to confront such ignorance coming from what is supposed to be an excellent university system. She routinely refers to people by their racial group and is always disparaging of whites (except for the movie stars she worships who happen to be white), especially TS Eliot for some reason (apparently one of her profs didn't like him and gave her permission to denigrate him on behalf of his "dead white male" category. She has been successfully - and proudly - indoctrinated into critical race theory and thinks she's enlightened because of it. I would like to debate the subject with her but she isn't really an intellectual, she's a sophist, lazy and can't get away from "click bait" long enough to hold a 5 discussion for more than 5 minutes. No, she isn't fresh out of college, she is almost 30 and still lives with mom and dad and doesn't have a bf (or gf).
Yes and people like her are a big reason why claiming white people have privilege is dangerous . It’s an excuse for idiots like her to thumb her nose at white people. Not good and only creates division
Why is our society only talking about white privilege? What about female beauty privilege? Iq privilege? These things are much bigger advantages than just having white skin
@@billsimms2511 Ya. Is there is any greater "privilege" than reducing someone to a category that you consider your inferior? It was wrong when whites did it to others and so it is just as bad when others do it to whites. You don't need a "post modern" education to understand the "golden rule" do you? Things are weird.
@@billsimms2511 wealth and beauty are the two biggest privileges in our society today, with those two things you are ahead of everyone/anyone else. All this rhetoric over race will accomplish is to divide us more… and embolden “can’t be racizt” people to be even more racizt.
Coleman Hughes never ceases to avoid an issue when he is allegedly addressing the issue. 'White Fragility' isn't a book that is to be used as "A recipe on how to live". 'White Fragility' is a book written by a 'white person' that recognizes white supremacy. It recognizes the fact that the USA was born out of white supremacy and it affects us all. This is something that African-American scholars have been saying for decades.
To me the issue is that it is a waste of time trying to educate white people more than they already have been. More effort should be put into getting legislation and pressuring businesses for change.