When Voyager stopped at DS9 in the first episode, Harry could have potentially been served his drink by a young Ferengi helping in his uncle's bar. When Voyager returned home, that Ferengi outranked Harry in Starfleet.
Harry's rank made sense... for about two seasons. It was acceptable for season 3, questionable for season 4, stupid for season 5, idiotic for season 6, and a deliberate insult to the fans in season 7, illustrated by the fact that they rubbed our nose in it more than once.
Ensign Kim becoming a Captain was probably Janeway’s greatest hint that the future wasn’t the way it should be. I notice those time police never came after her for doing what she did.
Those time police were useless because they never came around at all other than than the episodes about them which weren't about her screwing up the timeline.
@@GKHTS fair point, still doesn't change the fact by all accounts they're ineffective if not outright self defeating in a war and lazy af when there isn't one
Endgame, Relativity bridge. Ops Officer: Captain, we got another temporal ping from Voyager. Captain: Dammit, Janeway. Will you ever quit? Lay in a course for.... Science Officer (interrupting him): Sir, it would appear she will quit if we allow this one to happen. Captain: Lt? SO: Yes sir, I can confirm it. If we fix it, she will definitely do it again several more times. If we let it go, she will never do it again. Captain: Let the record show that the temporal sensors required calibration, ad they were detecting an event which was previously rectified.
Blooming heck people! In Janeway's estimation Species 8472 was a greater threat then the Borg! "Your Galaxy will be purged", ring any bells. Besides we saw multiple times throughout TOS, TNG & DS9, Starfleet working with their enemies i.e. Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Jem Hadar!
@@oddish4352 i disagree, from a military standpoint ( same style of chain of command used in star trek) she was at best dangerously incompetent's, and at worst a flat out criminal. her character would have been better if she didnt start as captian, but was the highest ranking bridge crew member to survive and forced to be a leader then her mistakes would be interesting and forgivable.
Even by 81, Kim was STILL and ensign, while Tom Paris was promoted to lieutenant senior grade. I would not be surprised when Harry Kim dies someday, they say that they regret never promoting him at his eulogy, then they give him an honorary promotion, then it turns out he is not dead yet, and he left his funeral finnaly as a lieutenant.
Logically, he probably only had to call Nog "sir" for a few days. Then, Starfleet almost certainly dropped plus-two promotions on all the ensigns and junior lieutenants (except Tom, who had already been promoted). Nog would have had to call Harry "sir" then. If he gets a CO who would ignore that reprimand (like Will "banged alien women right and left" Riker), I could even see Harry being considered for a LCDR's post.
Yeah, Kathy's been a bad girl all right. She's also been tested a LOT. I've been given to understand that in Kate Mulgrew's head, Janeway suffered pretty severe PTSD. That adds so much depth to the character. Poor Harry.
"Wishywashy Captain" he said but in context it's normal and human to regret things and to deal with ptsd in extreme ways when you have time to reflect like how she did in that void
Still, that's a problem for later. And now you have warning and even a little intelligence. She should have said, "dang, sucks to be the Borg right now," and let 8472 finish them. Then watch from a distance with the popcorn.
That 'Alien race beating the Borg' also stated - to Janeway - that they were going to wipe out ALL life in the Galaxy. Janeway made the only choice she could at that point as, as far as she knew, ONLY the Borg' could stop them.
Which as we later find out, was completely untrue. As the only reason 8192 attacked was of course because the Borg had invaded their space. And we had no evidence to suggest that were true, but I will devil's advocate the fact 8192 did attack Harry and beat him to a pulp. I also would've added her actions in Memorial where she advocated preserving a memorial that had caused her entire crew to suffer from PTSD under the idiotic logic that the only way people would learn not to make mistakes was by experiencing them.
@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective It was only made completely untrue when the creators, in their infinite wisdom - stop laughing at the back! - decided to retcon that in.
@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective And we find out in "In the Flesh", 8472 wasn't that bad when they didn't have their dander up about the Borg. Too bad Janeway didn't look into that earlier.
@@gothix5868 The problem is that it wasn't just Neelix that would have remained dead, but Tuvok as well. I don't know what I would have done, but you never would have had Tuvok and Tuvix
Agree. Leaving Tuvix around would be killing Tuvok and Neelix. Lets not forget Tuvok has a wife and kids. It was an impossible situation but it was also an accident.
You use Picard as a metric to demonize Janeway in the Lower Deck part. Then you turn around and claim she's blood thirsty with the Equinox as if Sisko didn't have a multi-episode arc where he hunted down Eddington including poisoning a planet's atmosphere
@@Grizzly_Adams. Eddington is first introduced in season 3's The Adversary, is his entry, but Season 5's For the Cause and For the Uniform is where you get the bloodthirsty hunt.
It still pisses me off that when Harry merely reminds Janeway that it's been seven years and he's still an ensign, she downright accuses him of bucking for a promotion. That episode might have been mainly a "let's character assassinate Harry" fest, but far as I'm concerned, it made Janeway look pretty awful too.
If B'Elanna had not assaulted Carey, I might have agreed. But she did. In light of this, she needed something like: Janeway confines her to quarters for a couple of days, and warns her that next time, it'll be the brig. You don't promote one person for assaulting a superior, and destroy another five years later for banging an alien.
No, you don't which also brings up the idiotic decision of also not promoting Lt Commander Tuvok who'd more than earned the right far more so than Chakotay ever did. You don't reward terrorism and you don't give an impassioned hothead with no technical ability the role of engineer, make her chief of security if you want to make use of her talents don't actually give her a role that she can't perform.
@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective Chakotay I can see. He was a former Starfleet officer and, with his existing commission reactivated, was a higher rank than Tuvok. B'Elanna was a far more questionable choice. A better way of working it out would have been for Joe Carey to be Chief Engineer until Voyager reached Planet 37's. Then, he and the problem Maquis all jump ship. By this time, B'Elanna has calmed down and demonstrated her proficiency as an engineer to the other crew, making her a more natural fit for the job. They also should have had Durst be head operations officer until he was killed off, then Harry (still a wet behind the ears academy grad at that point) has to take over. And had him be in over his head for a few episodes. Just by making better use of a couple of unimportant characters, they could have developed the important ones.
There was once a transporter malfunction, That lead to a bad situation. A signal was mixed, Now Tuvok and Neelix, Coexist until separation. Then Janeway made her decision, With two crewmembers technically missin' She weighed-up the cost, One life must be lost, To put Neelix back in the kitchen.
comparing the situation in #4 with Picard is unfair. I'm not an expert in ST shipbuilding but in the US Navy we have compartment placards that designate where and what a compartment is used for. As for Janeway it's hard to find where the crew hangs out. Sure they made it look nice on the show but it would have been a converted ammo storage where the crew would be playing spades or dominos
It's not unfair. Having watched that episode I can tell you in that scene she was looking for the guy at his duty location. She found the other two where they were hanging out without help.
I joke that Kim never ranked up because he was the only one who couldn't tell janeway and Chakotay had a thing going. Paris ranks up, tuvok ranks up, hell the Doctor gets his Emergency command holograph program.
I say Harry never ranked up because he didn't behave badly enough. Chakotay: Joins the Maquis... becomes first officer. Torres: Assaults her superior... promoted to chief engineer. Tom: Joins the Maquis... promoted to lieutenant. Go punch somebody, Harry. You'll have that hollow pip on your collar before the day is out.
The problem with that is you'd end up with a hierarchy like the original Enterprise where you end up with too many high ranking officers, they ended up with like 4 captains by the time they were done.
What makes Janeway's alliance with the Borg in Scorpion so heinous is that she later goes on to ally with Species 8472. We also see how many species fighting the Borg had pinned their hopes for survival on Species 8472 and when Janeway helped the Borg defeat them these species' last hope was gone. So essentially Janeway allied with the Borg against a Species that was friendly and intelligent (and willing to ally with Starfleet had she just put some effort into diplomacy) and this alliance directly led to the assimilation of at least one species.
Tuvix shouldn't exist. What about Tuvok's family? When they get back to the Alpha Quadrant is she going to go up to Tuvok's wife and children and say "Surprise, your husband had a transporter accident and is now merged with a man called Neelix. I could have saved him but didn't because I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Here you go, he's all yours".
There's a weird short-sightedness with Janeway that I often cynically wonder has more to do with her being a woman than... Oh, anything else, really. Here's a couple of things to consider: In a shorter tenure, Kirk got up to some equally terrible things. The difference in hte two, however, is that Janeway isn't trained for command. I want to repeat that point: She isn't trained for command. Yes, she's a captain, but her captaincy has always been of science vessels. She's not commanding a war or exploration ship, her every command has been of a research vessel. Voyager, too, is also a research vessel. A research vessel captain is trained more for handling a team of scientists, as they're sent on missions of research. Janeway just happened to find herself in a very unfortunate situation. You can find lists out there of things Kirk has done that dwarf the worst of Janeway's decisions. Yes, Kirk was an early Starfleet Captain, but he'd still had more training for that particular situation than Janeway had. Even Picard has done his fair share of terrible things-including a non-trivial amount of workplace sexism-and while those may not be as bad as Janeway's missteps, Picard had the best training of the era. Frankly, he should've done a lot better than he did. The point about withdrawing at certain times is also an unfair complaint. Janeway is a bubbly, giggly, wiggly, extraverted bimbo. She's a highly introverted, intelligent person because, to beat a dead horse and belabour the point-she's a research ship captain. Introverts can't be giggly-wigglers all the time, sometimes an introvert needs to withdraw to recharge. Just to push this point again, too... Kirk has done worse than Janeway ever did: ua-cam.com/video/O3ANio8HP0s/v-deo.html Janeway's a research captain. She did admirably in this role. So why does she get so much more shit than Kirk? I do wonder... Could it have something to do with her being a woman? It's absolutely, definitely, 100 per cent because she's a woman as no other captain is singled out like this. This is the part of the Trek fandom that depresses me the most. There's a stunning amount of sexism in the Trek fandom, way more than I would've expected. The problem with sexism too is that, like racism, a sexist doesn't realise they're being sexist because that's the state they've lived with all of their life. Unless a person is deeply introspective, they're not going to discover their own flaws.
might also be not a lot of people like Voyager (and odds are not all of that has to do with Janeway being female). I say this as someone who first got into Star Trek with Voyager, but it is not superbly written considering the circumstances. It could have been better if they pushed the isolated aspect more. This is not to say every item on the video's list is inexcusable--I think particularly Tuvix and allying with the borg are excusable given the information--but not everyone who doesn't like Voyager dislikes it because its captain was female. Not everything can be boiled down it and -ist or an -ism.
First rule: The Janeway can do no wrong! Second rule: In case she does, first rule applies. Third rule: The Janeway is the only way. Well, OK, I will watch that because of you, Sean. If it was anyone else, I would not.
So she was supposed to let Tuvok and Neelix die? She was supposed to let two people die so one could live? What about Tuvok’s family? They were supposed to lose him so some stranger could live? Janeway made the right call on that. Also, Carey wasn’t the engineer Torres was. Again, right call. Had Torres not been given the job Chakotay would’ve been the only Maquis rep in the senior staff. So yes, that was the right call too.
A lot of actions on this list can be justified. Stranding the crew: maybe misguided, but noble. Choosing B'Elanna: if she hadn't assaulted Carey, this would have been just a personnel decision. Tuvix: Needs of the many vs. Needs of the one. Scorpion: She thought 8472 was planning galactic genocide. Night: She had reservations, and according to this very video, they were justified. Equinox: Stopping a mass murder. Not knowing her own ship: It's a good idea, but not required. The only ones where there is no reasonable justification are: Endgame: 3 lives vs. all of history, not a fair balance by any reason. Harry: There was absolutely no rational justification for this. None.
When Janeway was "interrogating" a crew member of the Equinox, I was dumbstruck when I saw it. Her little vendetta & obsession with hunting down the Equinox made me think "She's gone off the rails, Chakotay should be the captain now."
Janeway went full Sisko. But atleast Sisko was honest with himself like "I've done really messed up stuff for The Federation" But there have been countless others who have gone too far and done questionable deeds in the name of "Preserving The Federation", Admiral Leighton and Admiral Ross come to mind. It becomes so easy to justify such actions. But atleast they had some justification, Janeway wasn't protecting the federation in the Delta Quadrant, she was trying to protect it's "Principles" but along the way she completely tossed those same principles out the window when she needed to. Captain Picard to me is the only Starfleet Officer who actually stuck to those principles completely, even when it went against the best interests of federation (Destroying the Borg with Hugh for instance). Picard would be shocked and appalled at some of the things Janeway did, Tuvix and the Equinox Interrogation for example, and then watching her go all Norah Satie high and mighty on Ransom.
say what you will about Tuvix, it was perhaps the best Voyager episode. It put Janeway in a moral tough spot and didn't give her an 11th hour get-out-of-jail free card to preserve her morality. There *was* no right choice there only a question of the lesser of two evils, particularly because they let Tuvix take his time and ingratiate himself into the crew and become a character in his own right
Janeway isn't responsible for the civil war among the Q they are. The Kazon were on the way and it would have taken several hours to reactivate the array and send Voyager home. They couldn't have survived another conflict with the ship so damaged. Species 8472 had the capability to wipe out all life in the galaxy and had made it known it was their intention. The Tuvix situation had no happy ending. Admiral going back devastated the Borg. If the change was unnecessary I would think the future Starfleet would have corrected it. Equinox was a Starfleet vessel so it fell to the only other Starfleet to stop them. Did she go to far yes but it's not the only time a Starfleet captain has done so. This list annoys me as once again Janeway is singled out for her choices when the other captains have made similar choices.
Well Tuvix was not killed because he continued to live as Tuvok and Neelix. Also Tuvix was technically never born. I liked the character but it was the correct choice.
Tuvok and Neelix were not killed because they continued to live as Tuvix. The choice was correct only because she needed Tuvok back, but it was still a bad thing to do.
Actually, the real Ensign Kim really did die. The one who lived was actually the copy. So they actually killed him. Yeah. Most people don't know that. Naomi also died, and her copy lived.
Actually, they ALL died. On one "side", Harry and Naomi died. On the other, Janeway blew herself and Voyager and 347 Vidiians to Kingdom come, with only Harry and Naomi escaping alive. So everyone died, everyone lived, and Harry STILL should've been frickin' promoted!
People who cry over Tuvix are often the same ones who want the Abrams movies & Discovery to be canon. But WAAH WOMAN if she'd let Tuvix live then the babies would accuse her of killing 2 to save 1, they wouldn't be happy either way. Offing the 2 separate Kirks to make 1 in TOS doesn't get the same scrutiny.
#2 Kinda makes sense. But, perhaps she was meant to go back in time and get VOY home sooner. If she wasn't supposed to do that, Reativity or another ship would have stopped her.
You guys missed a trick here, guys. Should have had a clip at the end where you hear a klaxon and then suddenly Sean Ferrick is transported away and suddenly there's Janeway (stock footage from the series) saying: "We need to TALK!" Then have Sean look at the camera like "Help me..." before the scene fades out.
The doctor refuses to separate Tuvix because "do no harm" Yet he was the one who came up with the procedure in the first place. Gotta put some blame on the EMH for this one too
@@phillipharrison886 he specifically states he'd have gone through with the procedure had Tuvix been willing. It's not surprising at this point a Starfleet crew's knee-jerk first reaction is "Ok, weird anomaly. How do we get back to normal?"
I’m fine with this whole video if it’s understood that the writers were so uptight about a female captain that they had her acting erratically as part of her personality. If they’d decided how she was going to be, with occasional moral ambiguity, that would have been par for the course. But they didn’t know if they wanted her super tough or super empathetic or super sciencey brilliant or distractingly beautiful … NOT Janeway’s fault. She was just written that way, like Jessica Rabbit. And Tuvix was an error which she had to remedy, DESPITE the sacrificial trade-off of having to restore Neelix. SHE GOT. HER. CREW. HOME. That, at least, was her primary mission, consistently.
I think Janeway did the right thing regarding Tuvix. Tuvix's life took the lives of Tuvok and Neelix. Once they did make it back to Starfleet, how accepting does anyone expect Tuvok's family to be about him also being someone else. Furthermore, Tuvok's physical meld with an emotional being had to be 1,000's of times harder to deal with in regard to the strict logic of a Vulcan and their suppression of emotion. Can you imagine the battle? I think in the long run, The Tuvok part of Tuvix might have committed suicide. Oh, and it did suck about Ensign Kim never being promoted.
A transporter accident that became sentient! That's why it's so awful, Tuvix was his own man and had his own aspirations. He was then killed by her in cold blood.
What bothers me most about the Tuvix issue is yeah it may suck that this new person had experiences but the ACCIDENT that caused it from a moral standpoint impacted 2 lives that could be saved. Even basic morality would choose 2 lives over 1. With how Tuvix was created between the most caring person and the most logical person their actions to be selfish in this situation goes against the previously established motus operandi that bother would sacrifice themselves for the other regardless of feelings. This would mean that they would do everything in their power to try and let the other live. I am so sick of this debate that even elementary kids learning basic philosophy can figure it out yet here we are still brining it up.
@@Qq-xs1fz what I'm saying is that this 1 "person" isn't an individual and he knows it. By his actions he is choosing to kill 2 people who can be saved.
@@canis2020 How isn't Tuvix a person? Because he was created in an accident? Is Thomas Riker not a person then and could be used for spare parts for William?
@@Qq-xs1fz thing is tuvix wasn't used for spare parts all his parts as it were, were already accounted for and belonged to neelix and tuvok. He had no right to keep their bodies and consciousness imprisoned and perhaps write over them with his own persona
That is why I like Archer he is a trail blazer BUT EVERY CAPTIAN HAS MADE BAD CHOICE. Many would say THAT Captain Picard is the least offensive. But to be captain is no easy thing and AS FOR JANEWAY she was a long way from home
This is spot on and as I'm sure we'll see with Captain Sisko's list if it ever come his acts will dwarf Janeways but he is the best captain of them all.
Well, based on the Kelvin-verse, we now know Trek runs on a Multiverse-Timeline. This means that Janeway goes back to a new timeline where she is able to help them come back earlier. The longer-trip timeline still exists, they just no longer have a Janeway after the time-jump in that specific timeline, and for a short bit the prime timeline has 2 Janeways. Our Trekverse-Prime Voyager is technically NOT the Old-Janeway timeline's Voyager.
For Tuvix, one could also argue that if Janeway hadn't done what she did, she would have been denying the restoration of Tuvok and Neelix, effectively making herself guilty for both of their deaths. It was an impossible decision with no answer being 100% correct, given the options the show makes available or known. That said, we as the audience know that there actually was a third option, which was not explored. In Next Generation, there were two Rikers as a result of an issue with a transporter - the machine has a built in buffer, which stores the data of the person being transported. If this idea had been built upon, it would have been possible to use the transporters to restore both Neelix and Tuvok without needing to involve Tukvix at all, effectively allowing all three to live.
I don't agree with the first 3 points on this list. Helping the Okampa was the right thing to do, Torres was more qualified for the job and Quinn seeked asylum, requested her help and the Q continuum agreed to the trial even though they could've easily prevented it and send Quinn back to his prison.
I did like that you put "Not promoting Harry" as your number one pick. He was just a kid, who wanted to impress his captain. And he contributed so much, and he was overlook some many times. Well at least she knew his name.
In terms of harm done, it's not that bad... the worst case scenario is that one person's Starfleet career is unjustly ruined. Compare that to #10 (dozens of crew died on the way home), #6 (the Borg weren't stopped, and assimilated millions), and #2 (untold lives were affected). But one, it was impossible to justify. Two, we were reminded of it every episode. And three, it's taken on a life of its own; "poor, dumb, forever ensign Kim" is a common trope to this day.
Not hard to understand why Janeway made the deal with the Borg. 8472 wants to eradicate the quadrant. And if they have no problem beating the biggest power in the quadrant the Borg, what's going to happen when the Borg lose and get annihilated
What she should have done helped both the Borg and 9472 to defeat each other, played both sides. No Borg is good for the galaxy and no 8472 is also good.
@@JonBerry555 with their run ins with 8472 they nearly killed Harry. They wouldn't have any dealings with Voyager and we're even planning an invasion against the federation with the simulation base in space. It wasn't until they leveraged the Borg nanite weapons that 8472 was willing to bargin
Why are we blaming Janeway for all of this? Tuvix I understand, but also don't know what choice she had. But making chakotay 1st officer is the only way it would have worked. Why would she choose anyone else? I like your show, but I gotta say - did you even watch voyager? I know they are your opinions and I often share them, but definitely not this time. Lol agree to disagree. #janewaykicksass
Also the worst thing Tuvok ever did was not Neck-pinching her right there, assuming command and setting up the time delayed explosives to get everyone back home safe and sound.
I never saw Janeway promoting Torres to Chief Engineer as one of the worst things Janeway did. Janeway could not have foreseen the Q Continuum's civil war when she gives asylum to suicidal Quinn. Q is not a reliable being from whom to heed advice, so you can't blame Janeway for ignoring him. You also can't blame her for teaming up with the Borg against Species 8472 when she didn't know everything there was to know about the conflict. It was about survival at that point.
For every mistake and short coming Captain Janeway had (there were a great many), she should be not only be forgiven, but honored and celebrated, for her role in bringing an end to the abomination known as Tuvix.
Thank you. The Carey/Torres situation always bothered me. It was ludicrous. Carey was clearly entitled to the position, and the better choice for it. Torres could have legitimately served in engineering under him AFTER a stint in the brig for striking a fellow crewmember.
There is a lot of bad things she has done. Stole a starship, raided planets, invaded territories, broke the prime directive, ignored basic principles, interfered constantly, ignored her follow officers, treated Harry badly, forced Kes to go through her changes, put crew in harm's way, betray her trust, lie and be sneaky, be disrespectful to other cultures, controlled the narrative, messed and altered the EMH to suit her needs, treated certain members badly, caused a few wars, bullied other races, caused trouble with the Kazons, got countless crewmembers killed unnecessary, stole technology, constantly gave away technology, used her emotions to get what she wants (She was the Helen of troy), destroyed relationships just because, treated people differently. Ignored situations if people close to her broke the rules, treated the EMH like garbage, caused genocides,
So according to Garett Wang (on tiktok) the reason behind Kim never getting a promotion is because "they needed a ensign" in the series. So yeah, there's that.
Janeway changes time because she was an old woman full of regret and her hidden love with Chakotay. Just like the episode with nucleogenic life forms, Janeway saw it her responsibility because she knows if he doesn't face consequences she's going to turn into him. People forget Voyager is essentially on a suicide mission at least for the humans given it was supposed to take them 75 years to get back home
ok so I just rewatched Equinox ... I love you to bits my guy BUT .. she only hunted that guy down because he was a murderer using an innocent species to fuel his ship ... I felt this vid was a bit harsh on Janeway... many things here were not her fault and she had to chose bad or worse.. but the Equinox .. nah she was spot on. Hunt him down Starfleet or no.. just look at it again to jog your memory :(
Janeway's only mistake with Tuvix was not throwing that monster into suspended animation as soon as it started breathing. There's no way that shit was an accident. That plant was a sophisticated booby trap left behind but an alien race that used the transporter to elaborately combine two men into a functioning puppet. 2 more months and his head probably would have split open and released spores everywhere after he instinctively transmitted Voyager's coordinates to a star system nearby. And Tuvix wasn't killed, he was returned to his original state. Good riddance.
Sisko and Picard likely would have done the very same thing in all instances. The only item on here I agree with, was #1; the rest was unfair because they were the only Federation ship for lightyears. Morals or existence? Hmmmmm
EXACTLY, They where desperte, and Jsne way had to stuff the woulnt nomally do in The Alpha quadrent, and this is why i like Voyager, it got dark sometimes
Only 10?! She may be an exemplary captain, she may have gotten most of her crew home and she may in fact be my favorite of the captains. But she made *waaaaaaay* more than just 10 horrible judgement calls.
The First episode is a great example of why the Prime Directive as an inflexible rule sucks. Janeway broke the prime directive by destroying the Relay and it was right to do so.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
When Voyager stopped at DS9 in the first episode, Harry could have potentially been served his drink by a young Ferengi helping in his uncle's bar. When Voyager returned home, that Ferengi outranked Harry in Starfleet.
Lol!
Harry's rank made sense... for about two seasons. It was acceptable for season 3, questionable for season 4, stupid for season 5, idiotic for season 6, and a deliberate insult to the fans in season 7, illustrated by the fact that they rubbed our nose in it more than once.
That's hilarious and true.
Holy crap, you're right! God, that's just embarrassing for Harry, lol
why cou;dnt he just rank up? istg hes gonna be ensign till the day he dies 😂
It would be interesting to see this list for Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Archer.
Agreed. I always feel like Janeway gets unfairly treated by fans when compared to the other captains. I wonder why? 🤔
Agreed
@@DanielConlon739 Surely you're not suggesting something like sexism, are you? 😉
100%, lay out all the captains' dirty laundry 😈
@@DanielConlon739 Tuvix!
Ensign Kim becoming a Captain was probably Janeway’s greatest hint that the future wasn’t the way it should be. I notice those time police never came after her for doing what she did.
The time police didn't want Harry promoted either.
Those time police were useless because they never came around at all other than than the episodes about them which weren't about her screwing up the timeline.
@@GKHTS the time police aren't very good ever... Lest we forget Daniels and his DBZ level death count.
@@rexex345 Yes but at least there , there was a temporal war which would be chaotic as opposed to being police and monitoring and just intervening.
@@GKHTS fair point, still doesn't change the fact by all accounts they're ineffective if not outright self defeating in a war and lazy af when there isn't one
Endgame, Relativity bridge.
Ops Officer: Captain, we got another temporal ping from Voyager.
Captain: Dammit, Janeway. Will you ever quit? Lay in a course for....
Science Officer (interrupting him): Sir, it would appear she will quit if we allow this one to happen.
Captain: Lt?
SO: Yes sir, I can confirm it. If we fix it, she will definitely do it again several more times. If we let it go, she will never do it again.
Captain: Let the record show that the temporal sensors required calibration, ad they were detecting an event which was previously rectified.
🥺🥺🥺
Blooming heck people! In Janeway's estimation Species 8472 was a greater threat then the Borg! "Your Galaxy will be purged", ring any bells. Besides we saw multiple times throughout TOS, TNG & DS9, Starfleet working with their enemies i.e. Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Jem Hadar!
Sounds like a lot of excuses for literally making the biggest threat in the universe a bigger threat.
In Caretaker you condemn her for not putting her crew first, then in Scorpion you take her to task for putting her crew first. Make up your mind!
That's this whole list in a nutshell.
"UGG BUNGA! BIG MAN SHO-VIN-IZ-ZUM HAZ NO PLACE FOR STOOPID VULKAYNEEUN LOJICKS."
Except for the matter of Harry Kim, every decision on this list can at least be understood, if not condoned. But not promoting Harry was indefensible.
captian should always put crew first its there job
@@oddish4352 i disagree, from a military standpoint ( same style of chain of command used in star trek) she was at best dangerously incompetent's, and at worst a flat out criminal. her character would have been better if she didnt start as captian, but was the highest ranking bridge crew member to survive and forced to be a leader then her mistakes would be interesting and forgivable.
Even by 81, Kim was STILL and ensign, while Tom Paris was promoted to lieutenant senior grade. I would not be surprised when Harry Kim dies someday, they say that they regret never promoting him at his eulogy, then they give him an honorary promotion, then it turns out he is not dead yet, and he left his funeral finnaly as a lieutenant.
Lol
.....only to have Janeway demote him back down, to restore the balance in the galaxy.
Logically, he probably only had to call Nog "sir" for a few days. Then, Starfleet almost certainly dropped plus-two promotions on all the ensigns and junior lieutenants (except Tom, who had already been promoted). Nog would have had to call Harry "sir" then.
If he gets a CO who would ignore that reprimand (like Will "banged alien women right and left" Riker), I could even see Harry being considered for a LCDR's post.
Yeah, Kathy's been a bad girl all right. She's also been tested a LOT. I've been given to understand that in Kate Mulgrew's head, Janeway suffered pretty severe PTSD. That adds so much depth to the character.
Poor Harry.
I think Kate had some leftover PTSD from when she was a soap opera star before Voyager..
@@greendryerlint
It was good training.
"Wishywashy Captain" he said but in context it's normal and human to regret things and to deal with ptsd in extreme ways when you have time to reflect like how she did in that void
@@alainamarie4928
I hadn't thought about that. But that makes sens.
@The Critic But every timeline where he did either didn't happen or was declared non-canonical.
Still my favorite captain. :puts fingers in ears: lalalalalal can't hear you!
Picard then Janeway for me
Picard might beat out Janeway as my favourite too EXCEPT for his obsession with playing that fucking recorder (flute). 😂
Kinda forgetting that the species in scorpion promised to destroy all life in the galaxy. And they were capable too. Janeway made the right call.
That’s right, your galaxy will be purged are ‘fighting words’
Details...
Still, that's a problem for later. And now you have warning and even a little intelligence. She should have said, "dang, sucks to be the Borg right now," and let 8472 finish them. Then watch from a distance with the popcorn.
@@ScaryBaldMan the warning about purging your galaxy is nothing to ‘worry about later’
..... I'm with species 8472, pesky bi-pedal placental mammals.
12:00 Sean: "I hope she doesn't see this list..."
(Janeway puts her hands on her hips)
Watch out... Janeway doesn't even fear fear itself... fear itself fears Kathryn Janeway.
That 'Alien race beating the Borg' also stated - to Janeway - that they were going to wipe out ALL life in the Galaxy. Janeway made the only choice she could at that point as, as far as she knew, ONLY the Borg' could stop them.
feels like this script was written by a Voyager hater, since some of these choices do make sense in the context of the story
If that one 8472 hadn't been so dickish when Kes happened to be listening, Janeway might have realized who the actual bad guys were.
Which as we later find out, was completely untrue. As the only reason 8192 attacked was of course because the Borg had invaded their space. And we had no evidence to suggest that were true, but I will devil's advocate the fact 8192 did attack Harry and beat him to a pulp.
I also would've added her actions in Memorial where she advocated preserving a memorial that had caused her entire crew to suffer from PTSD under the idiotic logic that the only way people would learn not to make mistakes was by experiencing them.
@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective It was only made completely untrue when the creators, in their infinite wisdom - stop laughing at the back! - decided to retcon that in.
@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective And we find out in "In the Flesh", 8472 wasn't that bad when they didn't have their dander up about the Borg. Too bad Janeway didn't look into that earlier.
Some hard core mental gymnastics in this one
Before erasing Captain Kim from existence she even threatens to demote him all the way back to Ensign just to get him to help her…
Which she effectively did anyway.
I can’t wait for the Janeway retribution video….
Janeway did the right thing with Tuvix, and you can't put the Q civil war on Janeway.
Neelix sucked. Worst character ever, followed by the doctor. I preferred Tuvok but liked Tuvix over Neelix. Neelix should have died.
@@gothix5868 The problem is that it wasn't just Neelix that would have remained dead, but Tuvok as well. I don't know what I would have done, but you never would have had Tuvok and Tuvix
.... I would have programmed the transporter to create 'Neelvox'.
Agree. Leaving Tuvix around would be killing Tuvok and Neelix. Lets not forget Tuvok has a wife and kids. It was an impossible situation but it was also an accident.
Tuvix is that debate::
Kill 2 people to save 1 or Kill 1 person to save 2!!!!
You use Picard as a metric to demonize Janeway in the Lower Deck part. Then you turn around and claim she's blood thirsty with the Equinox as if Sisko didn't have a multi-episode arc where he hunted down Eddington including poisoning a planet's atmosphere
Which episode was that? I want to see it
@@Grizzly_Adams. Eddington is first introduced in season 3's The Adversary, is his entry, but Season 5's For the Cause and For the Uniform is where you get the bloodthirsty hunt.
Sorry for the double 'where introduced' part. Got lost in the weeds checking episodes 😂
@@FoxyAlphaRogerTango YOU BETRAYED YOUR UNIFORM!
blocked and reported 🥺
Oh God... I explode on laughs with "is there no end to this woman's cruelty?" por Ensign Kim XD
It still pisses me off that when Harry merely reminds Janeway that it's been seven years and he's still an ensign, she downright accuses him of bucking for a promotion. That episode might have been mainly a "let's character assassinate Harry" fest, but far as I'm concerned, it made Janeway look pretty awful too.
The writers got together after the first season and made a secret pact to never promote ensign Kim.
B'elanna absolutely was right to be Chief Engineer. If you want to merge those two crews, you have to give maquis senior positions.
Ya, and it wasn't like she was given the job as a token Maquis. She proved she knew more than the other candidate for the job
If B'Elanna had not assaulted Carey, I might have agreed. But she did. In light of this, she needed something like: Janeway confines her to quarters for a couple of days, and warns her that next time, it'll be the brig. You don't promote one person for assaulting a superior, and destroy another five years later for banging an alien.
No, you don't which also brings up the idiotic decision of also not promoting Lt Commander Tuvok who'd more than earned the right far more so than Chakotay ever did. You don't reward terrorism and you don't give an impassioned hothead with no technical ability the role of engineer, make her chief of security if you want to make use of her talents don't actually give her a role that she can't perform.
@@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective Chakotay I can see. He was a former Starfleet officer and, with his existing commission reactivated, was a higher rank than Tuvok. B'Elanna was a far more questionable choice. A better way of working it out would have been for Joe Carey to be Chief Engineer until Voyager reached Planet 37's. Then, he and the problem Maquis all jump ship. By this time, B'Elanna has calmed down and demonstrated her proficiency as an engineer to the other crew, making her a more natural fit for the job.
They also should have had Durst be head operations officer until he was killed off, then Harry (still a wet behind the ears academy grad at that point) has to take over. And had him be in over his head for a few episodes. Just by making better use of a couple of unimportant characters, they could have developed the important ones.
Why weite the name....b/elana?!?!?!belana
There was once a transporter malfunction,
That lead to a bad situation.
A signal was mixed,
Now Tuvok and Neelix,
Coexist until separation.
Then Janeway made her decision,
With two crewmembers technically missin'
She weighed-up the cost,
One life must be lost,
To put Neelix back in the kitchen.
Tuvix or Leolaroot soup and Better-then-coffee for life... hmm... difficult.
"Transporter aberration" would rhyme better.
Worse than rat given they knew about Thomas Riker. She choose to kill tuvix because she couldn't be bothered to duplicate the transporter accident
Tuvik was a better written character the Tuvok and Nielek combined
😂why you tell whats in da video?
And she deleted the wife!
You know when....
comparing the situation in #4 with Picard is unfair. I'm not an expert in ST shipbuilding but in the US Navy we have compartment placards that designate where and what a compartment is used for. As for Janeway it's hard to find where the crew hangs out. Sure they made it look nice on the show but it would have been a converted ammo storage where the crew would be playing spades or dominos
It's not unfair. Having watched that episode I can tell you in that scene she was looking for the guy at his duty location. She found the other two where they were hanging out without help.
Um Janeway should still be able to find her way through a ship designed for like a hundred people after six years.
I joke that Kim never ranked up because he was the only one who couldn't tell janeway and Chakotay had a thing going. Paris ranks up, tuvok ranks up, hell the Doctor gets his Emergency command holograph program.
I say Harry never ranked up because he didn't behave badly enough.
Chakotay: Joins the Maquis... becomes first officer.
Torres: Assaults her superior... promoted to chief engineer.
Tom: Joins the Maquis... promoted to lieutenant.
Go punch somebody, Harry. You'll have that hollow pip on your collar before the day is out.
it's too bad they didn't use the ECH more, in my opinion
Harry Kim should have been a Lt. commander by the time they got back to the Alpha Quadrant
The problem with that is you'd end up with a hierarchy like the original Enterprise where you end up with too many high ranking officers, they ended up with like 4 captains by the time they were done.
I'll say a full lieutenant (two gold pips). He should have gotten his hollow pip around midseason 3, and his second gold one maybe three years later.
Harry saying that there wasnt a box on his chair, felt like an almost deliberate middle finger to janeway
What makes Janeway's alliance with the Borg in Scorpion so heinous is that she later goes on to ally with Species 8472. We also see how many species fighting the Borg had pinned their hopes for survival on Species 8472 and when Janeway helped the Borg defeat them these species' last hope was gone.
So essentially Janeway allied with the Borg against a Species that was friendly and intelligent (and willing to ally with Starfleet had she just put some effort into diplomacy) and this alliance directly led to the assimilation of at least one species.
Um did anyone ask the plant if it wanted to be combined with 2 other aliens. No they didn't, Janeway was acting on it's best interests.
Tuvix shouldn't exist. What about Tuvok's family? When they get back to the Alpha Quadrant is she going to go up to Tuvok's wife and children and say "Surprise, your husband had a transporter accident and is now merged with a man called Neelix. I could have saved him but didn't because I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Here you go, he's all yours".
Being a Vulcan family they would understand.
Doesn’t justify murder.
There's a weird short-sightedness with Janeway that I often cynically wonder has more to do with her being a woman than... Oh, anything else, really.
Here's a couple of things to consider: In a shorter tenure, Kirk got up to some equally terrible things. The difference in hte two, however, is that Janeway isn't trained for command. I want to repeat that point: She isn't trained for command. Yes, she's a captain, but her captaincy has always been of science vessels. She's not commanding a war or exploration ship, her every command has been of a research vessel. Voyager, too, is also a research vessel. A research vessel captain is trained more for handling a team of scientists, as they're sent on missions of research. Janeway just happened to find herself in a very unfortunate situation.
You can find lists out there of things Kirk has done that dwarf the worst of Janeway's decisions. Yes, Kirk was an early Starfleet Captain, but he'd still had more training for that particular situation than Janeway had. Even Picard has done his fair share of terrible things-including a non-trivial amount of workplace sexism-and while those may not be as bad as Janeway's missteps, Picard had the best training of the era. Frankly, he should've done a lot better than he did.
The point about withdrawing at certain times is also an unfair complaint. Janeway is a bubbly, giggly, wiggly, extraverted bimbo. She's a highly introverted, intelligent person because, to beat a dead horse and belabour the point-she's a research ship captain. Introverts can't be giggly-wigglers all the time, sometimes an introvert needs to withdraw to recharge.
Just to push this point again, too... Kirk has done worse than Janeway ever did:
ua-cam.com/video/O3ANio8HP0s/v-deo.html
Janeway's a research captain. She did admirably in this role. So why does she get so much more shit than Kirk? I do wonder...
Could it have something to do with her being a woman? It's absolutely, definitely, 100 per cent because she's a woman as no other captain is singled out like this.
This is the part of the Trek fandom that depresses me the most. There's a stunning amount of sexism in the Trek fandom, way more than I would've expected. The problem with sexism too is that, like racism, a sexist doesn't realise they're being sexist because that's the state they've lived with all of their life. Unless a person is deeply introspective, they're not going to discover their own flaws.
might also be not a lot of people like Voyager (and odds are not all of that has to do with Janeway being female). I say this as someone who first got into Star Trek with Voyager, but it is not superbly written considering the circumstances. It could have been better if they pushed the isolated aspect more. This is not to say every item on the video's list is inexcusable--I think particularly Tuvix and allying with the borg are excusable given the information--but not everyone who doesn't like Voyager dislikes it because its captain was female. Not everything can be boiled down it and -ist or an -ism.
What the heck? Hope the other captains get the same treatment.
Tuvix wasn’t murdered. He was reverted back to his original proper components.
Killing Tuvix? A "worst" thing? Heh, more like best decision she ever made XD
Killing Tuvix = restoring Neelix... only Kim's lonely pip can compete with this atrocious crime!
Tuvix was far more annoying than neelix, it was a good call ending him lol
@@laurenetong9654 I would have killed Neelix along with Tuvix.
@@jimmym3352 honestly the best choice - end up with only Tuvok, win-win!
Janeway's not bad, she's just sometimes written that way.
To be fair its a show so if she is written bad she is bad
@@AlwaysBolttheBird That buzzing sound you hear is the joke going right over your head.
@@CaptainFabulous84 Jessica Rabbit. I get it. But it's also a statement that could be taken literally.
If Tuvix was murdered then so was Locutus when he was turned back into Picard.
As was Verad Dax, when the symbiont was taken from him and returned to Jadzia.
"is there no end to this womans cruelty" I laughed out loud at this lol
reportedly the actor playing harry kim asked for promotions on screen and was told by the producers "no someone has to be an ensign"
Which, if true, is really funny, since the Original cast had four captains and three commanders by their last movie. :D
During the segment on Tuvix, Sean says, "She elects." Did anyone else hear "Sheelix?"
Tuvix tripped and accidentally activated the transporter. Everyone knows that and the matter's closed.
First rule: The Janeway can do no wrong!
Second rule: In case she does, first rule applies.
Third rule: The Janeway is the only way.
Well, OK, I will watch that because of you, Sean. If it was anyone else, I would not.
So she was supposed to let Tuvok and Neelix die? She was supposed to let two people die so one could live? What about Tuvok’s family? They were supposed to lose him so some stranger could live? Janeway made the right call on that. Also, Carey wasn’t the engineer Torres was. Again, right call. Had Torres not been given the job Chakotay would’ve been the only Maquis rep in the senior staff. So yes, that was the right call too.
A lot of actions on this list can be justified.
Stranding the crew: maybe misguided, but noble.
Choosing B'Elanna: if she hadn't assaulted Carey, this would have been just a personnel decision.
Tuvix: Needs of the many vs. Needs of the one.
Scorpion: She thought 8472 was planning galactic genocide.
Night: She had reservations, and according to this very video, they were justified.
Equinox: Stopping a mass murder.
Not knowing her own ship: It's a good idea, but not required.
The only ones where there is no reasonable justification are:
Endgame: 3 lives vs. all of history, not a fair balance by any reason.
Harry: There was absolutely no rational justification for this. None.
Tuvok and Neelix were fused, not dead. You tell their families that's what happened. You don't snuff out a new life.
When Janeway was "interrogating" a crew member of the Equinox, I was dumbstruck when I saw it. Her little vendetta & obsession with hunting down the Equinox made me think "She's gone off the rails, Chakotay should be the captain now."
He should have relieved and brigged her.
Janeway went full Sisko.
But atleast Sisko was honest with himself like "I've done really messed up stuff for The Federation"
But there have been countless others who have gone too far and done questionable deeds in the name of "Preserving The Federation", Admiral Leighton and Admiral Ross come to mind.
It becomes so easy to justify such actions.
But atleast they had some justification, Janeway wasn't protecting the federation in the Delta Quadrant, she was trying to protect it's "Principles" but along the way she completely tossed those same principles out the window when she needed to.
Captain Picard to me is the only Starfleet Officer who actually stuck to those principles completely, even when it went against the best interests of federation (Destroying the Borg with Hugh for instance).
Picard would be shocked and appalled at some of the things Janeway did, Tuvix and the Equinox Interrogation for example, and then watching her go all Norah Satie high and mighty on Ransom.
Killing Tuvix: Bad.
Brining Neelix back: Unforgivable.
I bet it was more about tuvok than neelix
@@tammymartinez7488 I think so she needed her freind and security cheif back
say what you will about Tuvix, it was perhaps the best Voyager episode. It put Janeway in a moral tough spot and didn't give her an 11th hour get-out-of-jail free card to preserve her morality. There *was* no right choice there only a question of the lesser of two evils, particularly because they let Tuvix take his time and ingratiate himself into the crew and become a character in his own right
Picard: You seek new life, well there it sits!
*points to Tuvix*
Janeway: Where's the new life? Is it sat behind that weird transporter accident?
Hahahahaha
I never enjoyed, or needed to see her in a romantic light. I did enjoy Q teasing her though 🤷🏻♀️
Janeway isn't responsible for the civil war among the Q they are.
The Kazon were on the way and it would have taken several hours to reactivate the array and send Voyager home. They couldn't have survived another conflict with the ship so damaged.
Species 8472 had the capability to wipe out all life in the galaxy and had made it known it was their intention.
The Tuvix situation had no happy ending.
Admiral going back devastated the Borg. If the change was unnecessary I would think the future Starfleet would have corrected it.
Equinox was a Starfleet vessel so it fell to the only other Starfleet to stop them. Did she go to far yes but it's not the only time a Starfleet captain has done so.
This list annoys me as once again Janeway is singled out for her choices when the other captains have made similar choices.
I swear...Tuvix makes it on to damn near EVERY ST:VOYAGER LIST!!!
Because it was an interesting and quite unique episode.
😆😆😆!!!
Well Tuvix was not killed because he continued to live as Tuvok and Neelix. Also Tuvix was technically never born. I liked the character but it was the correct choice.
Tuvok and Neelix were not killed because they continued to live as Tuvix. The choice was correct only because she needed Tuvok back, but it was still a bad thing to do.
The NUMBER ONE worse thing that Janeway did was to bring Nelix and Kess on-board in the first place...!!!
Actually, the real Ensign Kim really did die. The one who lived was actually the copy. So they actually killed him. Yeah. Most people don't know that. Naomi also died, and her copy lived.
Actually, they ALL died. On one "side", Harry and Naomi died. On the other, Janeway blew herself and Voyager and 347 Vidiians to Kingdom come, with only Harry and Naomi escaping alive. So everyone died, everyone lived, and Harry STILL should've been frickin' promoted!
There is a rumour that to this day Harry Kim is still an Ensign, and one Beckett Mariner considers him a hero and is attempting to match his record.
Picard wins all contests, my friend.
Admiral Janeway changed history so Harry never becomes a captain lol. I thought Tuvix was going to be #1
The needs of the two outweigh the needs of the one. Janeway’s call was correct regarding Tuvix.
Harry Kim.. he was an alternate copy. The real Kim explored deep space by himself...
Man that's dark! Just like the deep space the original Kim "explored"
She was clearly mirror-universe Janeway!
People who cry over Tuvix are often the same ones who want the Abrams movies & Discovery to be canon. But WAAH WOMAN if she'd let Tuvix live then the babies would accuse her of killing 2 to save 1, they wouldn't be happy either way. Offing the 2 separate Kirks to make 1 in TOS doesn't get the same scrutiny.
#2 Kinda makes sense.
But, perhaps she was meant to go back in time and get VOY home sooner.
If she wasn't supposed to do that, Reativity or another ship would have stopped her.
You guys missed a trick here, guys. Should have had a clip at the end where you hear a klaxon and then suddenly Sean Ferrick is transported away and suddenly there's Janeway (stock footage from the series) saying: "We need to TALK!" Then have Sean look at the camera like "Help me..." before the scene fades out.
The doctor refuses to separate Tuvix because "do no harm"
Yet he was the one who came up with the procedure in the first place. Gotta put some blame on the EMH for this one too
Though he thought it was a cure. It wasn't until Tuvix said it he didn't want to die The Doctor was against it
@@phillipharrison886 he specifically states he'd have gone through with the procedure had Tuvix been willing.
It's not surprising at this point a Starfleet crew's knee-jerk first reaction is "Ok, weird anomaly. How do we get back to normal?"
Too bad they never had the ability to permanently transfer people's consciousnesses to holograms. Only temporarily like the Vidiian, Dr. Danara Pel.
this gonna be fun. Some predictions: Tuvix (obviously), Caretaker, latent image, end game, Equinox, Course: Oblivion (even if it was fake Janeway)
TUVIX Should have been number One , as its murder essentially
Um... yeah... this video I can't get behind.
Causing Captain Braxton's nervous breakdown? (Relativity)
"IS THERE NO END TO THIS WOMAN'S CRUELTY?!"
Dictators are never the good ones
I actually agree about #1 because (1) it was a prolonged, protracted decision, and (2) there was no rational justification for it.
I’m fine with this whole video if it’s understood that the writers were so uptight about a female captain that they had her acting erratically as part of her personality. If they’d decided how she was going to be, with occasional moral ambiguity, that would have been par for the course. But they didn’t know if they wanted her super tough or super empathetic or super sciencey brilliant or distractingly beautiful … NOT Janeway’s fault. She was just written that way, like Jessica Rabbit. And Tuvix was an error which she had to remedy, DESPITE the sacrificial trade-off of having to restore Neelix. SHE GOT. HER. CREW. HOME. That, at least, was her primary mission, consistently.
I think Janeway did the right thing regarding Tuvix. Tuvix's life took the lives of Tuvok and Neelix. Once they did make it back to Starfleet, how accepting does anyone expect Tuvok's family to be about him also being someone else. Furthermore, Tuvok's physical meld with an emotional being had to be 1,000's of times harder to deal with in regard to the strict logic of a Vulcan and their suppression of emotion. Can you imagine the battle? I think in the long run, The Tuvok part of Tuvix might have committed suicide. Oh, and it did suck about Ensign Kim never being promoted.
Okay, let's be real : Tuvix was a transporter accident! Capt. Janeway was right in correcting that accident.
A transporter accident that became sentient! That's why it's so awful, Tuvix was his own man and had his own aspirations. He was then killed by her in cold blood.
@@dumbbirdyboysquawks8147 Exactly, Picard would never have allowed that to happen on the Enterprise.
What bothers me most about the Tuvix issue is yeah it may suck that this new person had experiences but the ACCIDENT that caused it from a moral standpoint impacted 2 lives that could be saved. Even basic morality would choose 2 lives over 1. With how Tuvix was created between the most caring person and the most logical person their actions to be selfish in this situation goes against the previously established motus operandi that bother would sacrifice themselves for the other regardless of feelings. This would mean that they would do everything in their power to try and let the other live. I am so sick of this debate that even elementary kids learning basic philosophy can figure it out yet here we are still brining it up.
"Basic morality would choose 2 lives over 1"... so what you're saying it's moral to kill a person if their organs could save two other people?!
@@Qq-xs1fz what I'm saying is that this 1 "person" isn't an individual and he knows it. By his actions he is choosing to kill 2 people who can be saved.
@@canis2020 How isn't Tuvix a person? Because he was created in an accident? Is Thomas Riker not a person then and could be used for spare parts for William?
@@Qq-xs1fz thing is tuvix wasn't used for spare parts all his parts as it were, were already accounted for and belonged to neelix and tuvok. He had no right to keep their bodies and consciousness imprisoned and perhaps write over them with his own persona
That is why I like Archer he is a trail blazer BUT EVERY CAPTIAN HAS MADE BAD CHOICE. Many would say THAT Captain Picard is the least offensive. But to be captain is no easy thing and AS FOR JANEWAY she was a long way from home
This is spot on and as I'm sure we'll see with Captain Sisko's list if it ever come his acts will dwarf Janeways but he is the best captain of them all.
Ahhhhhh... I'm SO telling Capt. Janeway about this!!!!
Well, based on the Kelvin-verse, we now know Trek runs on a Multiverse-Timeline. This means that Janeway goes back to a new timeline where she is able to help them come back earlier. The longer-trip timeline still exists, they just no longer have a Janeway after the time-jump in that specific timeline, and for a short bit the prime timeline has 2 Janeways. Our Trekverse-Prime Voyager is technically NOT the Old-Janeway timeline's Voyager.
People need to get over the Tuvix thing. Janeway made the right call.
Sorry, but I have no problem with making Tuvok and Neelix two separate individuals again. I would have done the same.
For Tuvix, one could also argue that if Janeway hadn't done what she did, she would have been denying the restoration of Tuvok and Neelix, effectively making herself guilty for both of their deaths. It was an impossible decision with no answer being 100% correct, given the options the show makes available or known. That said, we as the audience know that there actually was a third option, which was not explored.
In Next Generation, there were two Rikers as a result of an issue with a transporter - the machine has a built in buffer, which stores the data of the person being transported. If this idea had been built upon, it would have been possible to use the transporters to restore both Neelix and Tuvok without needing to involve Tukvix at all, effectively allowing all three to live.
I don't agree with the first 3 points on this list. Helping the Okampa was the right thing to do, Torres was more qualified for the job and Quinn seeked asylum, requested her help and the Q continuum agreed to the trial even though they could've easily prevented it and send Quinn back to his prison.
In reality, it is precisely the fact that she found herself in such extreme situations that she made mistakes that makes her one of the best captains.
"Delete the Wife."
I did like that you put "Not promoting Harry" as your number one pick. He was just a kid, who wanted to impress his captain. And he contributed so much, and he was overlook some many times. Well at least she knew his name.
In terms of harm done, it's not that bad... the worst case scenario is that one person's Starfleet career is unjustly ruined. Compare that to #10 (dozens of crew died on the way home), #6 (the Borg weren't stopped, and assimilated millions), and #2 (untold lives were affected). But one, it was impossible to justify. Two, we were reminded of it every episode. And three, it's taken on a life of its own; "poor, dumb, forever ensign Kim" is a common trope to this day.
Not hard to understand why Janeway made the deal with the Borg. 8472 wants to eradicate the quadrant. And if they have no problem beating the biggest power in the quadrant the Borg, what's going to happen when the Borg lose and get annihilated
What she should have done helped both the Borg and 9472 to defeat each other, played both sides. No Borg is good for the galaxy and no 8472 is also good.
@@JonBerry555 with their run ins with 8472 they nearly killed Harry. They wouldn't have any dealings with Voyager and we're even planning an invasion against the federation with the simulation base in space. It wasn't until they leveraged the Borg nanite weapons that 8472 was willing to bargin
I always thought it would have been cool if the civil war in the continuum caused the supernova that destroyed Romulus and Remus.
Why are we blaming Janeway for all of this? Tuvix I understand, but also don't know what choice she had. But making chakotay 1st officer is the only way it would have worked. Why would she choose anyone else? I like your show, but I gotta say - did you even watch voyager? I know they are your opinions and I often share them, but definitely not this time. Lol agree to disagree. #janewaykicksass
Don't expect logic-or even common sense-when male-chauvinism is in play.
Also the worst thing Tuvok ever did was not Neck-pinching her right there, assuming command and setting up the time delayed explosives to get everyone back home safe and sound.
He also should have pinched her to sleep when she went Ahab with the Equinox.
Janeway was a great captain.
Everyone wants to be ohh poor Harry, when O’Brain got so many promotions, demotions, reassignments… he’s lucky to even know his rank 🤣
I never saw Janeway promoting Torres to Chief Engineer as one of the worst things Janeway did. Janeway could not have foreseen the Q Continuum's civil war when she gives asylum to suicidal Quinn. Q is not a reliable being from whom to heed advice, so you can't blame Janeway for ignoring him. You also can't blame her for teaming up with the Borg against Species 8472 when she didn't know everything there was to know about the conflict. It was about survival at that point.
For every mistake and short coming Captain Janeway had (there were a great many), she should be not only be forgiven, but honored and celebrated, for her role in bringing an end to the abomination known as Tuvix.
It’s a pity the writers couldn’t put an end to the abomination that was Voyager.
Thank you. The Carey/Torres situation always bothered me. It was ludicrous.
Carey was clearly entitled to the position, and the better choice for it.
Torres could have legitimately served in engineering under him AFTER a stint in the brig for striking a fellow crewmember.
Janeway vs. Picard re Lower Decks - my favorite! Thanks for this great video.
Scientifically speaking, supernovas are great and essential. They are not a problem. If you are far enough…
There is a lot of bad things she has done.
Stole a starship, raided planets, invaded territories, broke the prime directive, ignored basic principles, interfered constantly, ignored her follow officers, treated Harry badly, forced Kes to go through her changes, put crew in harm's way, betray her trust, lie and be sneaky, be disrespectful to other cultures, controlled the narrative, messed and altered the EMH to suit her needs, treated certain members badly, caused a few wars, bullied other races, caused trouble with the Kazons, got countless crewmembers killed unnecessary, stole technology, constantly gave away technology, used her emotions to get what she wants (She was the Helen of troy), destroyed relationships just because, treated people differently. Ignored situations if people close to her broke the rules, treated the EMH like garbage, caused genocides,
So according to Garett Wang (on tiktok) the reason behind Kim never getting a promotion is because "they needed a ensign" in the series. So yeah, there's that.
End game was a writers copout, it's like saving your game before picking a lock or taking on a boss and reloading because you didn't like the outcome.
Janeway changes time because she was an old woman full of regret and her hidden love with Chakotay. Just like the episode with nucleogenic life forms, Janeway saw it her responsibility because she knows if he doesn't face consequences she's going to turn into him. People forget Voyager is essentially on a suicide mission at least for the humans given it was supposed to take them 75 years to get back home
I look forward to your list on the bad decisions made by all the other male captains.
Never happened because they never had to make a decision whilst having a period. [sarcasm]
@@Rattus-Norvegicus I really have no idea what your comment means.
🙄
ok so I just rewatched Equinox ... I love you to bits my guy BUT .. she only hunted that guy down because he was a murderer using an innocent species to fuel his ship ... I felt this vid was a bit harsh on Janeway... many things here were not her fault and she had to chose bad or worse.. but the Equinox .. nah she was spot on. Hunt him down Starfleet or no.. just look at it again to jog your memory :(
Janeway's only mistake with Tuvix was not throwing that monster into suspended animation as soon as it started breathing. There's no way that shit was an accident. That plant was a sophisticated booby trap left behind but an alien race that used the transporter to elaborately combine two men into a functioning puppet. 2 more months and his head probably would have split open and released spores everywhere after he instinctively transmitted Voyager's coordinates to a star system nearby. And Tuvix wasn't killed, he was returned to his original state. Good riddance.
Sisko and Picard likely would have done the very same thing in all instances. The only item on here I agree with, was #1; the rest was unfair because they were the only Federation ship for lightyears. Morals or existence? Hmmmmm
EXACTLY, They where desperte, and Jsne way had to stuff the woulnt nomally do in The Alpha quadrent, and this is why i like Voyager, it got dark sometimes
Only 10?!
She may be an exemplary captain, she may have gotten most of her crew home and she may in fact be my favorite of the captains. But she made *waaaaaaay* more than just 10 horrible judgement calls.
The First episode is a great example of why the Prime Directive as an inflexible rule sucks. Janeway broke the prime directive by destroying the Relay and it was right to do so.