Why Can't the Church Ordain Women Priests?
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- Our ancestors understood that men and women have distinct qualities so they tried to define roles and conventions that were best suited to the strengths of each.
So, it might be true to say that traditional gender roles are societal conventions, but what’s being left out of that is that they are conventions that are an attempt, admittedly imperfect, to reflect objective, biological, and maybe even, spiritual, realities.
So how well suited those roles fit that reality is something that we should be routinely improving so that they better reflect what is true. But instead, what we’ve done is identified one side of that equation, specifically men’s, as being far more desirable then the role of women in society and that if women want to be equal, they should simply expect all the same privileges and responsibilities of men.
It’s a strange idea that the only way to truly respect and honor women is to expect them to be more like men. That seems like your just honoring men and masculinity to me.
I think it’s a really juvenile thing to say that two distinct things, or people, in this case, cannot be equal unless they are the same in every way. I think a better solution would be to recognize and celebrate the qualities that make women distinct from men.
So let’s bring this back to the conversation around the Catholic priesthood. The first thing I’d say is that I think this conversation has fallen prey to many of the same things I described earlier. Because the Catholic Priesthood is something that has always been exclusively performed by men, we’ve surrendered to this idea that it’s a desirable and glamorous role that women should be allowed to do as well.
All the while, we’re forgetting that it is a role of tremendous sacrifice.
Not surprisingly, the factions campaigning for women priests are also campaigning for the abolition of celibacy because they want all the honor and not the sacrifice.
When Pope Francis was asked about this, he responded by saying that this was symptomatic of a kind of clericalism and I think he’s right. It’s a clericalism that puts priests on a pedestal and then creates an unhealthy appetite for wanting to be on that pedestal yourself… and for the wrong reasons.
There’s also the question of what God or Christ wants for his Church. Jesus, in establishing his Church chose 12 men, exclusively, to be apostles. That doesn’t mean that women didn’t have spiritual roles but it did mean that, whatever it meant to be an apostle, was a role for men.
But the factions who want the Church to ordain women do have their rationalizations for why Jesus did what he did.
They say that Jesus chose men because he was succumbing to societal conventions. There’s nothing about the character of Jesus that suggests he would be motivated by fear of upsetting the customs and traditions of men. He routinely affiliated with outcasts, lepers, and he relentlessly criticized the religious elders of his day. So much so that they eventually conspired to have him executed.
The second problem with that line of reasoning is that it includes the belief that restricting certain roles to men is sexist and sexism is wrong.
If that’s how you define sexism and if, according to that definition, it’s a moral wrong, then you, necessarily have to admit that it’s a sin and Jesus committed it.
And if Jesus committed a sin, then he could not have been God incarnate, God who is goodness itself, and if Jesus wasn’t God incarnate, then there’s no point in having a Church or priests… or any of it.
Lastly I want to address the point that we keep hearing that if women can’t be priests, then we need to make sure that we give them more prominence and influence in the Church - and by that, we mean that they should be sitting on more theological commissions, or governance boards, or committees, etc.
If there are women who want to have those roles and are qualified and ready, then great.
But when we talk about the Church, as in women need more influence in the Church, what do we mean by, the Church? Well, the Church means God’s people. So, influence over the Church is synonymous with influence over God’s people.
Well, the thing I’d say to that, is that traditionally, women already had the MOST influential role in the Church. Nothing is more influential than motherhood. To have the most exclusive access to children at their most critical stages of development is more influence than you can ask for. There are no theological papers, encyclicals, or magisterial exhortations that compare to the mentoring of a child by their mother.
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I mean, while the Apostles who were chose were all men, Mary was chosen to be the MOTHER OF GOD. That is a title that no man can bear.
and Mary Magdalene the "apostle of the apostles" that too is a title no man can bear :)
@@nerdanalog1707 where is that written? Maria Magdalena never was an apostle. Or did I get something wrong there?
@@honigpur he probably meant disciple
MOTHER OF GOD is a title no woman except Mary can get too
Nerd Analog
That’s just a joke what apostle ... they just say that thinking women will stop asking about priesthood if they humored them with that
Brian, this is one of the best explanations about this topic I have ever heard, and believe I have heard many. The edition of the footage is amazing but much better are the considerations you do. Blessings
Wow. That's very humbling to hear. Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Padre Daniel, qué sorpresa jajaj te veo en tu canal, que "mola mazo", saludos
1
This the best? Really? How ignorant can people be
I agree wholeheartedly as well..
Well, this woman agrees with you 100%. Thanks for putting it so clearly.
Shame on you then for buying into this guy's misogynist propaganda.
@@mightymissk "Misogynist" means woman-hating. If he hates women, why would he marry one? XD
@@josephkoob8370 You like things nice and simplistic don't you. Lots of woman-haters are married. Misogyny is a belief system, not some inherent male trait.
@@mightymissk Yes, I am a simple person. You're right. You won't change your position no matter what I say, so arguing is useless. You don't want to change your views, and you won't. Thus, we Catholics pray. We pray for you all.
@@mightymissk do you know what is the Rosary?
This grandma who grew up in the midst of the chaos of "Women's Lib" agrees with you 100%.
I had the odd notion growing up that Feminism meant supporting women who responded to their natural talents. But then I saw the bossy push to ostracize women who were drawn to motherhood and home life, and even women who were drawn to traditional careers (nursing, teaching, secretarial), so it became obvious that it was driven by unhealthy desire for power. It's basically the Junior High Clique in T-Rex Mode.
As some much-older-than-I Baby Boom women in my parish brought up their wish for the ordination of women, I had to look around at the group -- most of them 60+, very few younger than 40, none younger than 30. There are some 30-and-under women in our parish, but very very very few. We're in the Rust Belt of the U.S., so our population has declined, but these Boomer women had small families who have left the Church, and it's obvious that they didn't bring them up with orthodox values.
I can't help but notice that they aren't calling for women to be ushers and pass the collection baskets. They don't think our religious orders are "good enough" or "comparable" to what priests do. The local nuns are dying out and nobody is discerning with them - and you can't even tell who they are, they just dress in frumpy street clothes with short hair. And they were some of the women cheering for ordination of women. There were only about five present, at most -- I don't even know if there are other nuns in the city any more. When I was very young our little city had many, many nuns wearing habits, walking downtown every Saturday to shop, praying the Rosary between stops. Even my Southern Baptist neighbor's mom told us to be silent when we passed them so we wouldn't disturb their prayer. Now prayer is seen as "inaction." The focus is on social revolution, but meantime we've got more drug addicts, so I don't see that they've improved anything, and I can't imagine how women in the priesthood is going to improve the environment, either (their other focus). Honestly, the local nuns have a social media account that promotes "Meatless Mondays for the Environment." I left a comment: We're Catholic. We do Meatless Fridays.
And I'll tell you straight up: I ain't confessin' to no woman. I know women too well. We have to vent, to share our emotions, talk about the workday. I'm a teacher, so I hear it in the staff room - even as a substitute teacher in buildings where other teachers don't know me. I have lots of friends who are nurses, and it's uncomfortable when they begin violating patient confidentiality by discussing their work -- I have to end the conversation. There are healthy ways to deal with this aspect of our careers, but sharing it with someone who isn't in that workplace is not healthy. Putting women in the Confessional would be a disaster because there is NO place they can discuss what they feel based on what they have heard. We, as women, have emotional strength, we are nurturers, and we need nurturing. And we never forget. We're annoyed that men can seem cold-hearted to us because men deal with emotion differently. It seems like something can just roll off a guy's back. And we're annoyed that men forget what we've told them. But these qualities are a strength in the Confessional.
But most of all, I don't trust these women to lead because I don't trust their desire for power. They do see the priesthood as a position of power -- they've told me this! When I said I see the priesthood as a position of service and sacrifice, the other women insisted that "Priests have a lot of power - a LOT of power!" So I just asked, "What do you think about getting on your knees to wash the feet of the laity on Holy Thursday?" Nada. No response. I just don't think they know everything our priests sacrifice in their lives. The priesthood is a gift of service. If any have used the position to lord it over others, they're doing it wrong, and that's not the model we should be promoting.
KA Fleury ... Thanks for the comment. I love it.
You are so right! As a woman myself I agree men are better suited to be priests.
KA Fleury you sound very misogynistic the way you put women down as gossipers. Obviously you don’t know much about how men talk with each other. I agree with some aspects of what was said about glorifying masculinity to the detriment of femininity. You need more self esteem. You bought into the whole deal you try to disclaim
Having experienced women ministers (ordained, religious and lay) as an Anglican I will say that I don't see why a nun who has proven herself cannot be ordained. Yes our female presbyters and deacons make similar mistakes to the males. Some also perform spectacularly.
As ministers they have to give up lust for power, sex and money. That is the job of formation. It is good to explore what type of formation works and which doesn't.
That's why I dislike real witchcraft/sorcery because it's not just being born with powers. It's hungering for supernatural powers.
Whenever I talk like this my college professor calls me a sexist😂😂
gee, l wonder why that is
based
Cuz he's a leftie as most professors are lol
If a college professor says you're being racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, any of them ists or phobes, you are doing something RIGHT
mansplain no more😂
I don't want to be a man😭😭😭😭. I want to be a pink loving girl.
Good for you
The issue is not about you
( sorry not that important in this context)
The issue is not about women who want to be men
It is about women who want to be priests
I wish people only comment about that & not confuse the issue
There has only been male priests since the beginning of the Church. Even when the Apostles were still alive. You really have to have very good Logical and Biblical arguments to push for that change. Are you even a Catholic? Show your arguments.
@@theobserver3753 We could start by contesting that generalisation: 'There has only been male priests since the beginning of the Church'. It took a couple of centuries to develop a form of priesthood that we'd recognise today and, arguably, longer than that. To assume that those early forms of priesthood were 'male only' is, to put it charitably, courageous.
@@tonycarey1735 Jesus chose only men as disciples...
@@RodDop-us9ex Really? You know that as a historical fact? Is there any record of Jesus saying that priests should always and ever be men? Without that clear obligation it's reasonable that we can assume that this limitation of the priesthood is human-made and can be undone by humans.
If not, then we can extend your logic. Jesus only chose middle-eastern men to be his disciples so, by your logic, it follows that Jesus only wanted middle-eastern men to be his disciples.
Jesus only chose Jewish men to be his disciples, so, by your logic, it follows that Jesus only wanted Jewish men to be his disciples.
But the early church, after some struggle, made the decision that their movement (and their priests) were to be opened up to non-Jews and men from any country, despite what Jesus 'chose' in his eartly life.
Yes! As a mother of 5 and a former teacher - I completely agree! God gave the woman unprecedented influence by entrusting her with children. It pains me to see young women abandon this divine responsibility in favor of trivial things.
Tropical Garden, with all due respect, it’s not like fathers are not supposed to be present during the formative years of the children so they too have access to children. Women are abandoning their “Devine” responsibly to have equal access the institutions of the society which don’t favor the needs of females. By restricting women by this moral obligation of bearing children, these conditions won’t change.
Through evolution there’s a biological imperative to have children and women will always have it with or without this moral obligation.
M Seth
Thank you!!
Well can't one argue that, God gave men the ability to impregnate, so that is what men should do all day and that is their only duty? So why do men get to priests and not women?
Brian I absolutely loved this video. You are so good at articulating the message that you want to convey. Thank you for your kindness in sharing your thoughts.
Thank you so much! You have such a way with clearly and concisely explaining topics! I plan to rewatch this video many times
Brian, I just have to say how much I enjoy your videos. I appreciate how well developed your thoughts are, and how clearly and simply you communicate it. You have a simple and pure sincerity, that has no arrogance in it. You have confidence in what you believe and say, yet I get a definite sense from you that you clearly have an openness and respect for others, it's a great example of humility in my opinion. Lastly, your production of your videos is simply excellent. Thanks for sharing your talent, always look forward to your videos. God Bless! Robert
You are so good at explaining ambiguous topics.
My goodness, this blew my mind. Great video!
I love this! And I love your point of you! Thank you for all that you do!
We see in the Pauline Epistles that women were elevated in the Church in a way not representative of that time or any time previous to it. It needs be said that the verse regarding women honoring or subjugating themselves to their spouses is sorely misunderstood.
Hit it right out of the park, Brian!!!! 🙌🙌🙌
I've been binge watching your videos and LOVE them all but this has got to be one of my favorites! Thank you for your content, it is AWESOME and Im totally sharing it with all my family and friends! :D
Women do have one of the most importance in The Church since that they are often the ones who lead their children as well as their husbands to attend Mass.
Best response on this topic. Thanks for this.
Such a good explanation, common sense and chilled! Thanks Brian
God bless great video! 🕊❤️🙏🏽
Wonderful, Mr. Holdsworth! One of your best videos yet!
Nice job Brian!
Great video!
Great points man! Love this!
GRAZIE! esemplare spiegazione!!!
Thank you, Brian. Excellent as always.
Great video! It’s a pity that motherhood is so underestimated in our days. In some African countries, after giving birth women are helped by all the village. They are served and honoured. The appreciation and care of my husband made me proud of my role as a mother and helped me to embrace it fully.
Thank you very well said.
Great video Brian. :)
Great points, thanks for posting.
"..we can't comprehend all of God's reasons because we're either not fit or not smart enough." Love this humble answer!
Its a dodge, not an answer. It comforts you. The blatant injustice of it makes me angry. I hope one day to see women leave the Church over the Vatican's misogyny in such large numbers, that the old boys club has no choice but to stop treating us like 2nd class citizens.
@@mightymissk calm down karen
@@mightymissk He's answering it though?
This is soooi good!!
Protestant here. I love your videos and I have learned a lot about the Catholic faith but I am going to say we find both married priests in the old testament and new testament and woman serving priestly roles in old and new testiment as well. Female elders, female disciples, females preachers, church leaders and females intervening on the behalf of the high priest.
Female priest where?
I remember deaconesses being mentioned but as for "priest" I never saw this mentioned as an office in the Church. Priests were part of the Temple worship in Jerusalem, not in the NT Church, but there are lists of many roles, including pastors, teachers, prophets, evangelists etc., but it seems today all of those roles are carried out by one man "at the front" while the majority of the congregation remain passive. I came across ministers, bishops, deacons, but not PRIESTS.
Maybe the grandeur of the Temple is why so many grandiose cathedrals are built, but I thought the priesthood and Temple were done away with by God, and we are kings and priests only in spiritual terms, not in actual offices, otherwise we'd all be wearing golden crowns too.
Strange how any female priest I know always wears man's clothing, which is prohibited.
"boo-hoo, women are so opressed in religion!" Yeah, that's why we honour Mary.
Being a mother doesn't equal unemployment. It's a full-time job, which should be honoured in our society. Instead, we talk about how women should have right to return to work as soon as possible. A right to pay taxes instead of being there for their family?
TheGuardian And could it not be men who could be there for their families and women who pays taxes? I personally don't care which works, but I do think that a family does better when one of the parents stay at home? father or mother.
And really, you honor Mary only because she's a mother? You can't see her as a women?
What about Mary Magdalene? We honor her too... and she was a disciple and is considered as the "apostle of the apostles"... Yet she's not a mother... Should we kick her out? Or ignore her? No, why not give her a bad rep, already done though.
You honor Mary, a virgin. How many of the world's women are virgins? A lot less than are not. Where is the honoring of the majority of women in a state they exist in most of their lives? Nowhere. The RCC only honors women if they stay virgins.
@@nerdanalog1707 I agree what with you have to say, but what I think he’s trying to say is that some people view being a mother as being oppressed or a dead end job. He wrote that comment with that in mind I believe. He’s arguing against that stance. We honor Mary as a person and for what she did, one of her greatest responsibilities was her being a mother to Jesus Christ and she prevailed.
Well put. Straight, easy on the point - be blessed
I love this video! I agree with you 100% - I love being a woman with everything that entails!
What a well thought out and cogent argument. Nothing crazy or metaphysical, but clearly and concisely expresses what the Church believes and why a seemingly arbitrary male-only clergy is actually very specifically chosen and important in God's Church. Well done again Brian
The priest in local parish spent a lot of his time chasing women and playing golf, paid for by his cut from the collection plate. They all don't work so hard.
@@msminicooper2010 work.. Who defines what it is? A very small number of priests behave as you describe but being a priest in layman's eyes might seem that way.
Ever heard of "walk a mile in my shoes"?
ON THE ISSUE OF DEACONESSES
There is an essential difference between the “Sacraments” instituted by Christ, and offices and “Sacramentals” instituted by the Church.
The “order” of Deaconesses belongs to this second category, as well as Religious orders and minors orders. It is not related to the Sacrament of Holy Orders (instituted by Christ) but to an office/sacramental (instituted by the Church). Sacramentals work “ex opere operantis Ecclesiae”, from the working of the Church and the good disposition of the recipient, and not “ex opere operato” by virtue of the rite itself Divinely Instituted. The Church can both institute and eliminate offices according with times and needs. Consequently, the “consecration” of a Deaconess did not imprint an ontological character as in the case of ordination of men to Holy Orders. To be a “VIR” (MAN) is essential to the validity of the 3 degrees of Holy Orders (and not 2 degrees out of 3, given the “UNITY” of the Sacrament of Holy Orders) because masculinity (being Spiritual Bridegroom and Spiritual Father) pertains to the MATERIAL CAUSE of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
Women are a sign of the Church as a “BRIDE” and cannot even enter the first degree of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, which makes a man relate to the Church as a Servant/Bridegroom.
That is why in the Byzantine Liturgy the Deacon is called “Bridegroom” (how could we call a woman: Bridegroom?) The deacons enter the sanctuary from the sides (the Deacon’s gates), the priest enters the sanctuary from the center (the Royal Gate) but women are not allowed to enter the Sanctuary in the Byzantine Church. Not because of discrimination but because of the order in the distinctions of roles:
CHRIST: BRIDEGROOM/FATHER
THE CHURCH: BRIDE/MOTHER
MATERIAL CAUSE: Imposition of the hands on a VIR (MAN)
FORMAL CAUSE: The words that define the rank of Holy Orders
EFICIENT CAUSE: The Bishop
FINAL CAUSE: The three ranks have in common to be a Spiritual Bridegroom of the Church at the image and likeness of Christ (MAN) who washes Her feet right in the context of His institution of Holy Orders.
Therefore, since both the Apostolic Tradition in the Catholic Church and the Byzantine/Orthodox Tradition oppose it, it is pointless even to discuss the Diaconal ordination of women, as there is no Theological possibility at all for its existence in the Church founded by Jesus Christ. I t would be like discussing the "pregnancy" of men."
In the Profession of Faith and Oath of Fidelity on assuming an Office to be exercised in the name of the Church, clergy not only believes with firm Faith the Solemn Judgements of the Magisterium but also the ordinary and universal Teachings of the Magisterium of the Church as divinely revealed. Clergy also firmly accepts what is definitively proposed and religiously submit their will and intellect to the Authentic Magisterium, even when the teachings are not proclaimed by a definitive act. Every man must take this Oath before entering Holy Orders. For those who have taken this Oath, to support Woman Ordination, does not speak well in terms of their loyalty to Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisterial Propositions we already have, which they should know, teach, and defend:
First Council of Nicaea, Canon 19: “Deaconesses, not having been in any way ordained, are certainly to be numbered among the laity”.
The Council of Laodicea (Canon 11, inter 343/381 AD): “The so-called presbyteresses or Presidentesses are not to be ordained in the Church. … Women who among the Greeks are called presbyteresses, but by us are named older widows, women once married, and women on the register, are not to be stationed in the Church as if they were ordained”.
St Hippolytus of Rome (The Apostolic Tradition, ca 215 AD): At the Ordination of Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons - all receive the imposition of hands, but not widows: “When a widow is to be appointed she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named such. … A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with other widows. Hands are not imposed upon her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the Liturgy (or she has not a sacred ministry). Ordination is for the clergy because of the Liturgy (or their ministry). But a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all”. (William Jurgens, “The Faith of the Early Fathers”, vol. 1 entry 349f).
Tertullian (Demurrer against the Heretics, ca 200 AD): “The heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures, and perhaps even to baptize. Their ordinations are casual, capricious, and changeable.” (William Jurgens, “The Faith of the Early Fathers”, vol. 1 entry 300).
The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in the Declaration “Inter Insigniores”:
“In fact we know from the book of the Acts and from the Letters of Saint Paul that certain women worked with the Apostle for the Gospel (Rom 16:3-12; Phil 4:3). Saint Paul lists their names with gratitude in the final salutations of the letters…Priscilla, Lydia…Phoebe, in service of the Church of Cenchreae…Nevertheless at no time was there a question of conferring ordination on these women.”
Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (J.P. II, 1994):
“In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner… In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan… The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers who would succeed them in their ministry.”
You do understand that the Greek of the New Testament speaks of Presbytresses and Presbyters not older men and older women in the teaching ministry. It is a typical Roman Catholic Church attitude to concoct dogma to explain a Church position rather than explain the simple rules of Scripture.
@@hesedagape6122 Give me the quotes/references from Scriptures to make your point.
St Catherine of Siena herself puts down any claims that the Church is and always was "sexist." She had no "influence" my ass she didn't.
And St Hildegard of Bingen? Her titles (Abbess, artist, author, composer, mystic, pharmacist, poet, preacher, theologian) are about a dozen including, like St Catherine, a Doctor of the Church. And she lived all the way back in the 2nd century.
And how abut (I dunno) the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven? Yeah.
So get outta here with all that sexist bull. This especially irks me because I myself am a girl, and people claiming that I' being oppressed by the Church and (essentially) Jesus Himself is appalling beyond belief.
St. Joan of Arc
Just a little point more to your claim. The greater honor that God bestowed to a creature was precisely to a woman. His Mother. Mary is the only creature in all creation that was created immaculate. Yes, Adam and Eve, were created pure, but not impervious to sin. But Mary, was preserved from that, since God, in the Second Person, to be incarnate could not be born of a stained creature, but from someone that could not ever be defiled by sin.
For that reason, a woman is revered in Heaven as on Earth as the most perfect and majestic. No one occupies in the Church the same place as Mary. We, catholics, say that not all the saints combined can achieve from God what Mary can. You can ask a true catholic who does he revere the most, and undoubtedly Mary is the answer.
Well you've never wanted to be a priest, so you can't really put yourself in their shoes.
@zbm100 I think there truly are sincere women that feel they have a calling for the Church and in particular the priesthood, because they want to emulate Jesus as much as possible, because they feel called to have a flock etc... We shouldn't be dismissive and instead figure out what other roles those women could have instead.
Being dismissive might just make them feel rejected, or like their voice has no meaning.
@zbm100 zbm100 I am certain there are many women who feel a calling to the Church which is other than nun or motherhood, and don't know how to be heard, and they sincerely believe it must be priesthood. It isn't a question of power, it isn't a question of pride or even equality. Men have their uniqueness and women do too.
Yet rare is the space for women in the Church (not a lay person) who can be a real intellectual and do research on theology for example.
I don't understand what the fuss is, that women would want to engage themselves in more intellectual roles in the Church?
Furthermore, if we look at sacred scripture and sacred Tradition, then women were able to be deacons. Even today, the vast majority of bishops are for a return of women deacons. Yet this Tradition ceased, why?
I think it's a shame is all. And this isn't at all in support of women priests, but I can understand that some may feel a real calling, but not as a nun, a mother, a wife, a saint or a perpetual virgin.
It's a minefield I don't think you hit a bullseye but you did get the subject warmed up. Thank you for the enjoyable videos.
Thank You Sir ...
That was an excellent explanation! A very enthusiastic round of applause.
I had this discussion with my daughter when she first started high school and was really really smacked in the face with a lot of anti-Catholicism. And she knew I had a visceral dislike of the word “feminist” based on my childhood experiences of women heaping scorn and disrespect at my beautiful, brilliant and very pro- life mother. She was a very vocal leader of the pro life movement in our state since 1973, giving interviews and talks, lobbying, etc. I saw “feminist” women all but spit on her.
So my daughter had a goofy idea that I held the role of women as less important than that of men. Especially after being bombarded day in and day out at school with anti Christian, anti God, anti traditional values ideologies.
She did in fact play the “Jesus was just following the social norms of the times” card. And I wish I had heard this talk then!!!! I could have equated it to sin. I never drew it to its natural conclusion. I explained that Christ was never once bound by social conventions, that his whole life was a very long lesson in turning earthly values upside down utterly. He went where he was needed and he had imperfect vessels to be his voice after his death and resurrection. I explained that there are women Doctors of the Church, including her own patron saints, that Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix. And I went to that old kernel that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. I needed to have heard this to be able to send it home right then and there
Great stuff!
Great Job Brian!!
@Brian Holdsworth You're somewhat of a radical-cultural feminist. I'm Catholic and recently took a Women's Studies class in a very anti-Catholic environment and one of the theories we talked about was radical-cultural feminism. It says that in order to achieve equality between the sexes society must recognize our differences and uphold feminimity as well as masculinity. Thanks for the video!
Some one should write a book shedding light to the beauty of woman hood. Society seems to eradicate all that is feminine and treating it like a burden or a curse. Sometimes I as a woman feel inadequate, since the place I hold in my life is that of a scullery maid. People get confused and say “u can’t wash dishes for the rest of ur life”. But I reflect that Our Lady, who is the greatest Saint, Queen of Heaven, and Mother of God, spent her earthly life doing very similar mundane chores. And so in doing this with Christ in my heart, how could I possibly be lacking in any thing in my life as the Blessed Virgin is proof of this.
God Bless!
Francis&Fawn /Catholic&Danish “the privilege of being a woman” by Alice Von Hildrebrand and “The Eternal Woman” by Gertrude Von Le Fort are excellent philosophical and theological insights into the depth and breath of womanhood.
Jackie Lon
Thank u, I’ll make note of that xD
If women knew how much men really loved femininity and the feminine virtues they would never listen to the feminists. Incidentally there is a tendency to see this in the abstract "women cannot be priests but men can' or 'Women do mundane jobs' - most men, apart from a very few, also have mundane jobs, very few are priests or ministers. How many women arguing for the right for women to be priests would actually become priests - given the option? A similar issue arises in STEM fields - 'more women should do STEM' - ask them if they want to do STEM, and they will say no, and in that case there is in fact nothing stopping them doing STEM, there is not just that many women interested. The fact is there are plenty of options, and although women can often do mens' jobs and roles and vice-versa, maybe that is not the best outcome - either for them or society.
Read more good love poetry, like the Song of Songs! :)
You are wonderful. Peace........JO
Great! Thanks!
Wonderful!
Hey, Brian. You're the best. :)
You are hands down my favorite Catholic UA-camr, right up there with Bishop Barrón, Father Mike, and Matt Fradd
best explanation !!!
Great video - as an additional source, which I found helped me understand this even more deeply and richly, I recommend reading The Authority of Women in the Catholic Church, by Monica Migliorino Miller. She goes through the early Church teachings, the symbolism of the male and female in the covenant, and the essential and irreplaceable role women have, and the authority that that entails.
Becky Does that video answer the question as to why there stopped being women deacons in the Catholic Church?
The deaconess in the early church weren’t the same as Deacons, they were there for female baptisms in the early Church.
Thanks for these clear words- this mother of 4 agrees 100% with you
There may be a good ontological argument for why, in God's plan for humanity, the role of priest is reserved for men. However, the current case for it made by the Catholic Church does not hold up well under serious scrutiny, and to say that misogyny is not part of the problem is simply absurd.
I disagree
I agree with almost everything. But i dond see the insane work of the priests now a days...
Where is the debate about abortion in the homilies when ireland and argentina put abortion into law?
Where is the protection of the sacredness of the house of god?
Where is the care of the liturgy?
Where is the wisdom of the sheperds....i know that the priest had sacramental honor but also sacramental duties...here in europe we are alone against the world
Priests take their queue from their Bishop. If the Bishop will back them up with being controversial and maybe alienating a large number of pew sitters, then they will be more likely to preach these things. Lots of priests don't because they have Bishops who would abandon them in a second and remove them with cause of due to complaint letters and falling registration rolls.
You make a really good point. Maybe the reason we are debating women priests is because we don’t understand what a priest is anymore. Maybe we don’t see priests doing priestly things as much as we need to.
@@pickcomb332 perhaps if the Bishop they take orders from is female on this point then maybe they could argue it as a fair point. But it's set that religion and beyond ancient beliefs still dictate the lives and laws of so many in so many countries.
Excellent!
well done. thanks
Your logic is outstanding!! Why do women want to be more like men instead of focusing on their own strengths?? You are absolutely right about motherhood being devalued in today's hyper secular world. Now all woman have to be executives, managers, CEOs etc in order to have value. But remember the old adage "The woman who rocks the cradle, rules the world". We shouldn't be giving up on motherhood so easily.
You're a welcome blessing to both spiritual and logical reasoning
Thank you! You make an excellent point. Why should I aim to be more like men, as if it’s better? I don’t want to be like a man. I want to be a woman.
No hate mail from me, only love. Very well explained.
You nail it! That's the way it is
Great explanation
I'm not a pretty good english speaker, but as I understood your video, I was sad you didn't speak about the Saint Women: Saint Hildegard Von Bingen, Ste Thérèse d'Avila, or Ste Thérèse de Lisieux were quite more influent on Church than any masculin priest ever was . And what about Ste Maria de Magdala or the Holly Virgin ? Which pope can pretend to have as much influence on Church tha women had ?
Well, that's all, the whole video was really great, as all those you made, thanks a lot for your work, you're great .
God bless you and yours .
Excellent.
WOW!!! Brian this was powerful! I agree!!! You made some excellent arguments.
Spot on. No more actresses, but we still use "man" to mean human. This proves your point. Feminism is all about women becoming more like men. We don't value female/feminine contributions, which is why women want what men have. Who can blame us? It takes a lot of strength to insist on being valued for our femaleness and femininity.
I think everyone should remember that there is a higher position in the church that anyone, regardless of gender, can become: Saints.
Anyone can, and should aspire to, become a Saint.
Benjamin gutierrez oriol The problem with that argument, is that then why shouldn't men only want to be saints? Why do some want to become priests? Shouldn't aspiring to become a saint be sufficient? And what if a women truly and sincerely wants to become a priest?
Giving an option, is not giving and answer.
@Josaphat Martin Women in the initial years of Christianism were a lot more influential. Don't forget it.
@@TheRicktunero
Exactly.
Where are those women now?
AMEN TO THIS!!!!! >>>Well, the thing I’d say to that, is that traditionally, women already had the MOST influential role in the Church. Nothing is more influential than motherhood. To have the most exclusive access to children at their most critical stages of development is more influence than you can ask for. There are no theological papers, encyclicals, or magisterial exhortations that compare to the mentoring of a child by their mother.
Just perfect.
Great video, but what role do nuns play in this discussion? Maybe a continuation for this topic?
Very well articulated. And... I don't define myself by denomination, but would be considered Protestant.
In the book _The Authority of Women in the Catholic Church_, the author nails the feminist epistimology, it's all about power and abolishing the structures that lead to a disparity of power and this will, per Ruether and Chisteiser's own writings, will eventually lead to the abadonment of distinct and effectual Sacraments, and even any importance about the Incarnation itself. Women's ordinantion is only the means to the end if destroying the Catholic Church as anything resembling Catholic.
Agree 200%
Brian, can you do, or have you done, a video on why the Catholic Church maintains the celibacy rule (because, for those who don’t know, it is a rule in the Church, not a doctrine or dogma) for priests?
As you probably know, priests were once permitted to marry, but for a multiplicity of reasons (the most well-known one being that the Church did not want Church property to be passed down from father to son and thus be consolidated into select priestly families), the Church elected to enforce compulsory celibacy upon priests .
Much rhetoric and theology about the sacrificial nature of the Catholic priesthood because of the celibacy rule has been heaped onto the priesthood.
A crucial question or two is this, then, I think: Is the celibacy rule, even though it is only a rule, essential to the much-lauded sacrificial nature of the Catholic priesthood? Or could the priesthood’s sacrificial nature be re-examined to exist without compulsory celibacy?
That would thus also require an examination of what it means for anyone to make sacrifices for God, then, I think. We might also need to then examine whether our understanding of human self-sacrifice places too much emphasis on sacrifice in sexual terms, minimizing other forms of sacrifice that God might want us to appreciate.
Wow, I’ve gone on for a bit. But my point is this, as a reminder: Have you thought about these questions/considerations in a video? If not, would you in the future? 😊
As a Catholic mother I completely agree.
"Nothing is more influential than motherhood." BAM!
Great video! However, I felt that something could be said about that the Church is the bride of Christ
Well put.
Great lead in to help illustrate the truth of your stance. The modern blurring of male/female distinctions is very dangerous. It's interesting that the societies who recognize and value these differences are gaining influence e.g. Asian nations in particular, and those who distort or try perverting them e.g. "Western" nations are faltering in so many ways. God's word warns of this.
Very good, very accurate observations and conclusions on the current "women-should-be-men" fad... At the same time, being Anglican, I do not agree that the church cannot ordain women. As a teenager, my observation on the topic was, 1 of the 10 Judges was a woman (so, it's not that women "cannot", but it's equally true that 9 times out of 10, it's a man's job), and also that the roles that priests are called to fulfill include a very wide range of activity, some tasks included are very well done by women. As an adult, I observed that (1) there is a shortage of clergy, and (2) many of our problems we have brought on ourselves - male priests too full of themselves (or too insecure) to mention how much the women have contributed to the life of the congregation, also by insisting on celibacy which results in "falling off the wagon" in even worse directions... and finally as an older person, I observe that part of the problem is that the official structures require credentials, so an ordained priest can legally interact with certain gov't/legal procedures, but the head of the women's group at the church cannot, and this has both good and bad outcomes. We can only approach this prayerfully, and with openness to the Holy Spirit. (I am in the Anglican Provence of Japan, Diocese of Tokyo, which has 20-year history of ordaining women, and at the same time, absolutely no goal involving "equal numbers")
Brian, my students ask this all the time. Your point about the mystery around why Jesus is a man and why he chose only men is analogous to another reality that confounds. Why did God choose only women to bear the grace and burden of child bearing and rearing? Why did God naturally create men to have a physical and temporal barrier between loving and caring for their children (i.e. fathers need to learn to care for child while for many women it comes naturally if not instinctually)?
These mysteries lie at the heart of God’s plan for nature to communicate part of God’s divine trinity to us.
So just as I cannot explain why God chosen women to be the chosen for child birth, I cannot necessarily rationally (exhaustively) explain why God chose only men for the divine priesthood of sacrifice.
Is this a legitimate analogy?
Yes, I'd say it's a legitimate analogy. Like all analogies, it only needs one or more similarities to be valid.
Great comment
Brian Holdsworth I’ll think more on it. Keep up the good work.
E_ B_ - very good. I would like to point out that Christ, the incarnate god, by a physical act of washing the feet is emboldening and honoring the material dimensions of creation. God who is all powerful and all knowing is not just zapping here and there his will but engages in the material, physical and social dimensions and limitations. This is an act of rising up man. Folks often do not contemplate how god in the course of history chooses to interact with humans.
E_ B_ -. You are correct. It is my attempt to point out that god through all his works and at that of his son’s interaction with humans uses acts like the washing of feet to establish his church and bring his life in to a mystical body. In this way god does rise up his human creatures for the glory of god. I mention this only because moderns sarcastically ask if god is so great and powerful why does he spent 2 thousand years trying to work with the Jews and then all this secretive work with Jesus’s followers like washing of feet as a ritual to initiate apostles into the priesthood. I’m stating the obvious. God has placed his life on earth in the hands of his baptized. This is an act of love so unfathomable all we can do is bow in reverence and worship. In addition so many Catholics unknowingly take a Protestant idea think that god’s grace and god’s will makes people do good things and makes them saints as if they were robots. Therefore, why should we honor the human creature; we should just think god and leave the human element aside. This not correct. There is always a free will and a struggle by both god and humans. How often do we hear that god allows temptation to bring his human creatures to himself. Upon some heroic charity or life by a little human person, that person is brought to the attention of angels for all to see.
Can you do a video on Eastern Catholic churches?
Priesthood was never exclusively a male profession. There is artwork dating back to the 2nd century that depict female preachers, priests and bishops. St Paul wrote in his Letters to the Romans, that he will send the Deacon Phoebe for consultation, 16:1. I agree with the argument that many women aspire to have traditionally masculine qualities and jobs in the hopes of gaining respect, however that shouldn't mean they shouldn't be able to have these aspirations. Everybody wants respect and if this is a way to garner that respect then go off for all I care. However, I believe the praising to women's ability to be nurturing and procreate before listing the 'undesirable' aspects of priesthood to be a manipulative argument. Yes, traditionally feminine jobs deserve respect, but the list of 'undesirable' aspects of priest hood all reference the idea that women want families. All jobs include sacrifice, and just like men, women are prepared to sacrifice for the sake of their beliefs.
Well put. Thank you for making it clear.
I think it is important to include what the scripture has to say on this topic... I Timothy 2:11-14 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
I find that it is always wise to take our explanations of doctrine back to scripture.
Great video!! There are also some hints to the reasoning for exclusively male clergy in Exodus. I Believe one reason is to desexualize the Priesthood. Many religions before were centered around sex and became worshipful of the flesh. Obviously this is against our Faith and God’s Word. Keep up the great content!
thanks Brian! great explanatory video, just want to add that Jesus chose 12 apostles (all men ) to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, which were 12 brothers, sons of Jacob (named Israel) all men.
Excellent presentation. It’s a shame we don’t have more bishops able to speak as clearly.
I really liked this and found it very thoughtful. I disagreed on 2 points and would like to propose them for thoughts. The Church is not the People of God. She is a self sustaining entity (i.e. Aquinas uses the term perfect society) independent of her members. This is one of the reasons why we see members of the Church commit sin but the Church herself does not. Also, isn’t it disconcerting that in our current time we have become so confused about the differences in gender that we struggle explaining why women cannot hold positions in the hierarchy of the Church. The priesthood is threefold. It sanctifies, teaches, and governs. This is reserved exclusively to men, and to men supernaturally called by God. The Catholic Church does teach that women cannot have this calling, but that any able bodied man could. It does have to do with gender but our culture has successfully confused gender to the point that even rational and understanding people struggle understanding the differences and roles. That was alluded to in this thoughtful video but not fully explained. One more point, which is not specifically part of the two points, is that the difficulty understanding gender comes from turning it into an emotional argument instead of the objective, rational argument that it is. That emotion seems to come from being upset about one gender not being perceived as good as the other. But both, despite being unequal in what they are, are still equal in goodness.
Brian, you mentioned about the sacrifice of intimacy. I think you may want to clarify that on two accounts: First in 23 sui juris Eastern Catholic churches we have married men ordained as priests, absolute continency is not imposed. Second, in St John Paul II theology of the body it's explained that intimacy isn't the opposite of celibacy. In fact physical intimacy is the lowest of all form of intimacy. A mother to her son is more intimate than her son can be with his wife. Spousal intimacy if it's only physical is no different than animal intimacy. I believe you don't have an intention to sideline Eastern Catholic's practice of married priesthood or to imply that marital union is merely physical intimacy that celibate priests are sacrificing. But I think it's worth addressing in your upcoming video. In fact I recommend you to address both married priesthood and the true meaning of marital union that truly transcend physical intimacy. Great video as always.
"we have married men ordained as priests" Yes, but you have no married men ordained as bishops.
You need to see the whole picture : the consequence is that your bishops are systematically chosen among monks, which is not the case in the latin church.
I don't say it is wrong or right : it is a choice. and, by the way, in the latin church, the celibacy of all the clergy was a decision of a monk who became pope ...
And why have all (true) apostolic churches finally decided to chose their bishops among unmarried men ?
Because the "episcopal families" became the plague of the church soon after the free exercise of christianism in the roman empire : the episcopus, the episcopa and their many children used to "phagocyte" the church, grabbing all ecclesiatical functions and revenues (some sort of diocesan Borgias, actually)
On the issue of celibacy there are strong arguments to suggest that the reason there is so much molestation in the catholic church is because of the imposition of celibacy and the restriction of any physical relationships. What do you think about this?
Bru Master There's absolutely no correlation between celibacy and sexual abuse.
There is absolutely no argument that suggest that. One of the priests at my college parish is pursuing a doctorate in psychology. I asked him about this exact topic he told me that there are no arguments that suggest that.
Amen. As a woman (mentioned only for the folks who think that matters), I am so thankful for the beautiful complementarity of man (male and female) God created, so thankful for our humble priestly fathers who sacrifice their lives in service to us... and I am sad for those women who articulate their desire for the priesthood as a grasp for power. That's not what priesthood is about -- but that's what the female-ordination-advocates MAKE it about, which is yet another sign that none of them should ever be allowed anywhere near it.
If a woman cannot find her peace fully in that Christ loved and died for her; then go on to discern how best to live her life to glorify God (with such a vast array of adventures open to her (marriage! motherhood! catechesis! career! volunteer work! religious life!)), and is fixated not on what God shows her as a made-for-her path to bring Him glory, but on trying to appropriate someone else's path because she perceives it as 'higher'... then her focus is on glorifying herself. And she needs to sort through that. And recognize that she's in NO position to spiritually lead someone else until she actually allows herself to be led by the God, including (especially) when it seems difficult. Those are the times when God has the greatest graces in store for us.
Motherhood is as you said the most important role and the strongest mission. Another reason women cannot be priest is because when the host and wine is change into the body and blood , at that moment the priest is transformed into Jesus ,Jesus is a man and a woman cannot turn into a man or transcend into Jesus. Lastly Jesus ,God, knew us before we were born ,after were born and years from now, so if Jesus wanted women to be priest, to be apostles, He would have done it then. He set the church up the way He wanted it set up
. How dare we think we know better than Him. It’s just sad how some clergy are more interested in the secular world and are doing their best to destroy His church by the tactic of divid and conquer. By divisiveness.
Another well thought out analysts. We need to celebrate our differences. Woman weren’t created to do everything a man can do,woman were created to do everything a man can’t do. Let us rejoice in our differences and celebrate one another.
Mary, a woman, is the Queen of Heaven-teach and pray the Rosary in Latin🙏🏼💪🏼🙏🏼
I have one question about the Apostolic role reserved to men because I have often heard that Mary Magdalene, in witnessing the resurrection first and telling the apostles about it is called the apostle of the apostles... What do you think about that ?
Also I do think there is a masculine and a feminine side in all of us although one prevails over the other according to the sex of each God may use a woman's specific masculine quality for His purpose, such as with Joan of arc... Now I'm not sure of this statement so I would be happy if you would offer me your thoughts on it !
@@capucinetosi8361 :
Mary Magdalene is said to be the first to see the empty tomb but she wasn't alone, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome were with her and they all saw the empty tomb.
There were no men because it was customary for women to prepare a body for burial.
These women were disciples of Our Lord, but definitely not priests.
He chose twelve Apostles, all men.
@@capucinetosi8361 Just to be clear there are "apostles" in the bible who are not "Apostles" in the sense of being part of the apostolic ministry. Epaphroditus of Philippi is a good example whom Catholic Answers wrote a bit about: "Although, in Philippians 2:25, Paul refers to him using the word “apostle,” he makes it clear that Epaphroditus is “your apostle” who Paul is returning to them. In other words, Epaphroditus was sent by the church at Philippi to Paul, and now he is sending him back.
Many translations thus render the word “messenger” in this verse, because it seems to be the ordinary Greek usage of the word apolostolos (one who is sent) rather than the technical usage the term acquired for those who had been sent on special mission by Jesus Christ himself."
As they point out "apostle" (apolostolos) technically just means messenger, so the title of "Apostle to the Apostles" is meant as a bit of an endearing play on words. She was not an apostle in the sense of holding the apostolic office, but an apostle in the sense that she delivered the message of Christ's resurrection to the apostles.
Hi, today is day of Saint Charbel, libanese saint that intercession is verry high to prays
I practise in the Wesleyan Methodist denomination. Our doctrines allow the ordination of women. That said, I do t entirely disagree with the Catholic argument against such practice. I think your arguments for the current status quo in Catholicism is great. I've watched a few of your videos, and I understand some of the differences between our denominations better as a result. I think the important thing is that we focus on our similarities, not argue for or against Protestantism. Ultimately, we all worship the same triune God.
"As in all the congregations of the Lord’s people. Women should remain silent in the churches, They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."[1Cor. 14:33-35]
Unfortunately, the Methodists are a church of heretics that don't follow the Bible. Not surprising since they came out of Anglicanism (all protestants are heretics), but methodism is uniquely disgusting since it has been infiltrated by liberals.
@@mosesking2923, thank you for explaining why we still have such disgusting sectarian separation and violence in the world. When fellow followers and believers in Christ Jesus can openly claim each other as heretics, we have truly lost our way.
May God bless you and shine his revealing light on you to provide an understanding of His love and grace.
There are, like with all things, people that take movements to a point that makes other uncomfortable but the point of celebrating women taking on roles that aren’t ‘traditional’ is to allow more space for people to be themselves and positioned to receive gods love as they are. I think saying women’s equality aims to make women like men is incorrect. Women have been told what they are for centuries rather than able to decide for themselves. God also allows us to find who we are and ultimately to come back to him both through and in-spite of whomever we find in ourselves along the way.