I found the volume on the whole video VERY hard to hear, even at maximum settings on my Machine and UA-cam... which made it worse when the TikTok blip came up.
I was genuinely worrying whether commenting on it would be the wrong tone so please allow me to use this opportunity to say: yes holy shit incredible hair good job
The Gout comment made me giggle. When Grandad was diagnosed with gout (we are talking late 1970's here) I remember he was quite chuffed about it,,, as well... only the 'well to do' got gout so he must have made it in life!😄
PAUSE THE VIDEO A FEW SECONDS BEFORE THE END to lower the sound OR THE TIKTOK SOUND WILL DEAFEN YOU! Super interesting - would love to hear more about this in a longer-form video - but audibly? :)
Yeah, you mention Oscar Wilde but it has strong similarities to Alan Turing "corrupting" Arnold Murray and Norman Scott trying to convince the court that Jeremy Thorpe had "corrupted" him too.
i read about the messenger boys and male brothels in A Curious History Of Sex by Kate Lister! and to further show how this is still a fairly modern way of thinking, i recently finished the book Pride by Tim Tate, where many of the people he interviewed, who were all either out gay people or striking miners in the 1980s, agreed that homosexuality was seen as an upper class thing that working class boys were seduced into, despite there being plenty of outspoken gay miners and many of the gay people coming from working class backgrounds even at the time, just nobody wanted to hear them because it challenged their worldview. it's one of the reasons why the Labour party took so long to add gay rights to their manifesto; for all they were left wing, the trade unions in the party had no interest in gay rights because they didn't think there were any gay people in the trades they served.
Fascinating info, J! Wild to learn of the ongoing "homosexual issues" among the upper echelons of society prior to the Wilde/Bosey scandal, and its origination point of "homosexual decadence." Thanks, as ever, for your brilliant work!
Very interesting and answers some questions I was having in a conversation about perceptions of homosexuality of that time period. BUT.... please rerelease this with the audio fixed. I had to turn it way up to hear you and then that sound effect at the end really startled me. lol
Hey great video and topic, love your new haircut, as other people have mentioned about the audio. It’s often still the case that the sex worker’s are punished. Thankfully Brothels are legal in Victoria Australia and the sex worker’s are more protected by health regulations stating it is a $10,000 fine to even ask for sex without a condom, I have friend’s that were sex worker’s and I used to go out with a sex worker, although I have never been inside one we met online, it’s not something that bothered me as it’s just a job, in a funny twist we later realised that we both had the same sex worker convict ancestor who was transported to Australia on the 2nd fleet what they called the Brothel ship the Juliana.
@Sweetlyfe As an American who has wished for decades that sex work was both legalized and protected here in the US, the fact that sex workers are both respected and protected so heavily in Australia is so incredibly awesome for me to see! Knowing this puts the hugest smile on my face! I pray that we someday reach that level of respect for them here in the States!
@@GingerMole It can be very interesting,and possibly a little embarrassing, to find out what your family got up too. Someone researching their families history found out that grandma ran a brothel. Not sure what you do with that information in Ancestor.
I mean, given the way prostitution works, there were definitely a LOT of rich people involved in general. And of course, for a long time those in power could do whatever they wanted to their serfs/slaves/commoners.
And I imagine sex scandals with poor people made for poor journalism because: A) No one knew who they were B) It wasn't considered shocking that they had sex scandals because they were already not respectable.
They still can… Epstein, Trump and all the others we don’t hear about (and before you come at me that those two examples were arrested… yeah- but it took decades and they were protected for a long time)
The audio was horrible so quiet I could barely hear it. I'm glad to see that others had this problem too. & it wasn't a problem with my phone but the video.
Thanks for sharing this video. Fascinating as always. I’m digging the haircut, had mine cut Friday. My woolly hat became somewhat velcroed to my skull - that was a new experience 🤣 Anyway, thanks again for sharing your knowledge and your research. If I wasn’t in the “Land Down Under”, I’d definitely come along for a history tour, that’s for sure. All the best, 🙂🐿🌈❤️ P.s is be interested to hear about the origin of the word, and history of “Mudlarks” on the Thames river.
Well done Draper 👏 I rushed in here to throw some mud on the volume haters but the tiktok volume at the end *chef's kiss*. Also looking suave as always!
Great video! the voice volume seems a little low, but other than that super interesting, do you think this idea of homosexuality being an upper class "vice" is only a British phenomenon or do you think it spread to the rest of the Anglosphere? from my own reading I don't see it in colonial Australia but i might be wrong.
"You remember that summer." Ah, yes. Senior year. I heard of the scandal but tbh I thought it was about former President Cleveland landing his former ward as a wife.
Had to turn the volume all the way up and still could barely hear you. Also to continue, the Prince’s “Friend” who was already in an asylum starved himself to death when he received news of his death.
Sometimes I wonder if moments like these aren't jokes that go too far. Like what if the boy just panicked and said the first thing that came to mind but he actually was the thief lol nice haircut btw you look stunning
Fun fact: I applied for a job in Russia and the interviewer told me her brother went to England for work in the early 1990's. When he got back noone would talk to him in case he "caught" homosexuality. Because of course all British "men" are gay.
This really REALLY needs a volume adjustment. You can't hear it unless the volume is all the way up and then the 'bleep' at the end is eardrum bursting.
This must be a British thing. As an American born in 1989, the stereotype I associate with being gay is of being an upper-middle-class intellectual, probably because gays in the 1970s-1990s were way more likely to be out of the closet if they were well-educated and financially secure.
I couldn’t say about the direction(s) of causality, but you’re probably onto something. Back in the 80s the “pansy” stereotype was really strong in our 🇺🇸 minds, so anybody who dressed nicely and had good manners came off as… _you know_ . English and French guys were kind of suspect by default. [And of course we made our own cultural contributions congruent with that stereotype, like Truman Capote in real life or Lakey from Mary McCarthy’s novel _The Group_ .]
I have heard of the Cleveland Street Scandal and I have to say it left me thinking that only half the story had been told. I never understood why homosexuality was made illegal in the first place, like that made a difference. It struck me as a sop to the middle class. Also why was homosexuality made illegal while lesianism was not. Someone once said men could get two years hard labour in prison while women could do it as a show at the Albert Hall and sell tickets.
Same reason why trans women are looked down upon, despised by many cis men and not rarely not accepted by cis women, while trans men are more accepted. Misogyny and the mind set that women are lesser, and their sexuality lesser important. Gay men and trans women are subconsciously seen as stepping down the ladder (effeminate, towards the "lesser" women). Lesbians weren't taken serious in the past. Denying them the concept of their own sexuality that doesn't derive from a man thus deemed only as playing around foolishly and harmlessly.
It's quite simple actually. Lesbians were a delight for the male gaze and Queer men were a threat to the patriarchal order. It's not really an issue of victorian morality.
Extremely interesting content, even more so than usual . However, the only thing I could hear was the TikTok sound at the end even with my volume set at max. Not a problem I usually have with your vids....hmmmm???
No, they were upper class men caught in a homosexual sex-scandal, which confirmed to the public that homosexualality was a particularly upper class issue.
Gotta say "me too" on the audio issue, Draper. Sorry. There are a lot of videos on your channel that I thought the audio was just missing entirely, until I cranked my speakers all the way up to maximum. You need to work that out.
Back in the 1970's, it was child molesters. Where that's truly abhorrent, homosexuality is a matter of nature. Make it illegal, and there will be scandals like this. Having seen a soldier drummed out of the Army for being gay, it was obvious to me that the only crime here was the attitude of the hierarchy. (Who knows how many developed this apparent attitude as a cover for their own sexuality?)
always fascinating to see our collective bias through history. BTW your volume on this was very low, until the end with the tiktok logo which was very loud.
Something is going on with the audio on this video. With headphones I normally have my system volume at about 10%. I had to turn my system volume up to 58% for this video, and the ad that came after it nearly boke my eardrums
Comes from, how often these people portray themselves as shining beacons of humanity and have marked being homosexual and sexual frivolous as being depraved. So these stories tend to stick in your memory, like that story (thank you Stephen Fry): An aide brought Churchill the morning paper with the news that one of his Cabinet Ministers would have to resign because he had been caught having gay sex with a Grenadier Guardsman in Green Park the night before. Churchill said: “It was cold last night was it not?” the aide replied: “Yes Sir, only 23 degrees” Churchill replied: “Makes you proud to be British”
this is way late but I'd like to add that in Cuba during the revolution there was a large amount of homophobia because queerness was seen as bourgeois just as described, at least some Cubans fled because of it, so this idea was around as late as the 50s/60s. Thankfully nowadays Cuba is up there with the most progressive countries in the world when it comes to queer rights.
Had to turn up my volume all the way to hear you, might want to check your audio. 😁
Was about to say that
Same here…
But I will listen to J. Draper in Sign Language if I knew it! ❤😅
Was going to say the same thing
Same.
TikTok jumpscare at the end really got me, especially at 100% volume 😂
Thanks for the warning!
Yes, thanks for the warning!
I found the volume on the whole video VERY hard to hear, even at maximum settings on my Machine and UA-cam... which made it worse when the TikTok blip came up.
why do i never read the comments before watching the vid? my ears hurt now
I am having the best goddamn hair day of my life in this vid
J, if you want feedback from a lad: I much prefer your former hair style. 💇🏻♀️
But you're great nonetheless. 🙂
I was genuinely worrying whether commenting on it would be the wrong tone so please allow me to use this opportunity to say: yes holy shit incredible hair good job
You absolutely are!
Absolutely killing it with that look fr. The hair, the button down, the headphones -- 200% excellence ✨️ 👌🏽
Yeah you are!!
Audio is very quiet 😢 maybe reupload? (Sorry)
Yes audio is virtually non existent, but the subtitles are there. Regardless it's still a really interesting video
Audio is very low but very interesting.
The Gout comment made me giggle. When Grandad was diagnosed with gout (we are talking late 1970's here) I remember he was quite chuffed about it,,, as well... only the 'well to do' got gout so he must have made it in life!😄
PAUSE THE VIDEO A FEW SECONDS BEFORE THE END to lower the sound OR THE TIKTOK SOUND WILL DEAFEN YOU!
Super interesting - would love to hear more about this in a longer-form video - but audibly? :)
I saw this message too late, but thank you anyway
Yep… saw your comment afterwards. All I can hear is the tiktok ding in my brain now. 😂
Thanks! I actually stopped to read text, went accidentally to comments, saw your comment and decreased volume
Yeah, you mention Oscar Wilde but it has strong similarities to Alan Turing "corrupting" Arnold Murray and Norman Scott trying to convince the court that Jeremy Thorpe had "corrupted" him too.
i read about the messenger boys and male brothels in A Curious History Of Sex by Kate Lister! and to further show how this is still a fairly modern way of thinking, i recently finished the book Pride by Tim Tate, where many of the people he interviewed, who were all either out gay people or striking miners in the 1980s, agreed that homosexuality was seen as an upper class thing that working class boys were seduced into, despite there being plenty of outspoken gay miners and many of the gay people coming from working class backgrounds even at the time, just nobody wanted to hear them because it challenged their worldview. it's one of the reasons why the Labour party took so long to add gay rights to their manifesto; for all they were left wing, the trade unions in the party had no interest in gay rights because they didn't think there were any gay people in the trades they served.
brought to you live from a library
Fascinating info, J! Wild to learn of the ongoing "homosexual issues" among the upper echelons of society prior to the Wilde/Bosey scandal, and its origination point of "homosexual decadence." Thanks, as ever, for your brilliant work!
Best reason ever for joining patreon: “you can also boss me around“!
Very interesting and answers some questions I was having in a conversation about perceptions of homosexuality of that time period.
BUT.... please rerelease this with the audio fixed. I had to turn it way up to hear you and then that sound effect at the end really startled me. lol
Hey great video and topic, love your new haircut, as other people have mentioned about the audio. It’s often still the case that the sex worker’s are punished. Thankfully Brothels are legal in Victoria Australia and the sex worker’s are more protected by health regulations stating it is a $10,000 fine to even ask for sex without a condom, I have friend’s that were sex worker’s and I used to go out with a sex worker, although I have never been inside one we met online, it’s not something that bothered me as it’s just a job, in a funny twist we later realised that we both had the same sex worker convict ancestor who was transported to Australia on the 2nd fleet what they called the Brothel ship the Juliana.
Okay so basically you had a prostitute for a girlfriend and then you found out you’re related? 😂
"I used to go out with a sex worker although I have never been inside one" 🤣🤣🤣
@Sweetlyfe As an American who has wished for decades that sex work was both legalized and protected here in the US, the fact that sex workers are both respected and protected so heavily in Australia is so incredibly awesome for me to see! Knowing this puts the hugest smile on my face! I pray that we someday reach that level of respect for them here in the States!
@@GingerMole You never know, the person they dated could have been a guy. Not all sex workers are female. 😉
@@GingerMole It can be very interesting,and possibly a little embarrassing, to find out what your family got up too. Someone researching their families history found out that grandma ran a brothel. Not sure what you do with that information in Ancestor.
I mean, given the way prostitution works, there were definitely a LOT of rich people involved in general.
And of course, for a long time those in power could do whatever they wanted to their serfs/slaves/commoners.
And I imagine sex scandals with poor people made for poor journalism because: A) No one knew who they were B) It wasn't considered shocking that they had sex scandals because they were already not respectable.
They still can… Epstein, Trump and all the others we don’t hear about (and before you come at me that those two examples were arrested… yeah- but it took decades and they were protected for a long time)
You say that like anything has changed.
The Daily Mail and the Telegraph would cease to exist if all this wasn't the case.
😂😂😂😂😂
The audio was horrible so quiet I could barely hear it. I'm glad to see that others had this problem too. & it wasn't a problem with my phone but the video.
I came to the comments expecting interesting ideas, opinions or debates but everyone’s complaining about the damn audio😂😂😂
Thought my ears had quit on me for a moment there, until I saw the other comments.
Ha! Same.
Really interesting topic, really glad you subtitled your content, even at full volume I could barely hear this.
Thanks for sharing this video. Fascinating as always.
I’m digging the haircut, had mine cut Friday. My woolly hat became somewhat velcroed to my skull - that was a new experience 🤣
Anyway, thanks again for sharing your knowledge and your research. If I wasn’t in the “Land Down Under”, I’d definitely come along for a history tour, that’s for sure.
All the best,
🙂🐿🌈❤️
P.s is be interested to hear about the origin of the word, and history of “Mudlarks” on the Thames river.
Well done Draper 👏 I rushed in here to throw some mud on the volume haters but the tiktok volume at the end *chef's kiss*. Also looking suave as always!
Great video! the voice volume seems a little low, but other than that super interesting, do you think this idea of homosexuality being an upper class "vice" is only a British phenomenon or do you think it spread to the rest of the Anglosphere? from my own reading I don't see it in colonial Australia but i might be wrong.
I'd always assumed it came from boarding schools as a rich-people thing, where the horny teens are restricted to a same-sex environment.
When it comes to public drama and controversy, that which appears to be contemporary actually tends to be a tale as old as time.
So informative and interesting as per. Love the new hair btw!
Loved the vid, thanks for the captions because as another viewer mentioned, I had almost no volume. Keep up the fascinating info, love history!😊
Might I say, I absolutely love your hair. No flirtation or anything, just admire how you do it.
That tiktok logo jumpscare at the end tho, had my volume of my phone at 15, then that bomb dropped😵💫
*once again want to cry then rage then cry over references to Wilde going to prison* 😭😡😢
"You remember that summer." Ah, yes. Senior year. I heard of the scandal but tbh I thought it was about former President Cleveland landing his former ward as a wife.
I can testify that this WAS a common view, Dont be afraid to Try things out of your Comfort Zone. Also be Respectful !!!
Long Shorts! Oxymoron for the win! 😂
Girl the moan and jump I let out when the TikTok outro sound came on because my volume was all the way up 😂😂 Wish I read the comments first 💀
Had to turn the volume all the way up and still could barely hear you. Also to continue, the Prince’s “Friend” who was already in an asylum starved himself to death when he received news of his death.
bit quiet, had to turn my audio all the way up, then the tiktok thing hurt my ears
Sometimes I wonder if moments like these aren't jokes that go too far. Like what if the boy just panicked and said the first thing that came to mind but he actually was the thief lol nice haircut btw you look stunning
Love the colours in this video (and the content too of course!!)
Fun fact: I applied for a job in Russia and the interviewer told me her brother went to England for work in the early 1990's.
When he got back noone would talk to him in case he "caught" homosexuality.
Because of course all British "men" are gay.
Audio seems super quiet.
This really REALLY needs a volume adjustment. You can't hear it unless the volume is all the way up and then the 'bleep' at the end is eardrum bursting.
This must be a British thing. As an American born in 1989, the stereotype I associate with being gay is of being an upper-middle-class intellectual, probably because gays in the 1970s-1990s were way more likely to be out of the closet if they were well-educated and financially secure.
I couldn’t say about the direction(s) of causality, but you’re probably onto something. Back in the 80s the “pansy” stereotype was really strong in our 🇺🇸 minds, so anybody who dressed nicely and had good manners came off as… _you know_ . English and French guys were kind of suspect by default.
[And of course we made our own cultural contributions congruent with that stereotype, like Truman Capote in real life or Lakey from Mary McCarthy’s novel _The Group_ .]
You tricked me into thinking my headphones were broken because I had just moved my PC and this was the first video I decided to watch.
Great video tho
That was quite interesting... though maybe a little bit louder next time? 😂
Just watched Tom Scott's explanation of loudness, then came here.
Shouldn't Long Shorts just be "Trousers"?
Love your videos! But, please, find a way to increase the volume on your end! I always have to turn the volume all the way up to hear them at all.
I love your hair ❤️
A k d lang sort of vibe, I'd say.
Nice.
Whoa, your new haircut is lovely!
That hair, is 🔥 today. ❤
Yeah the volume thing was kinda bad 🦻 but the story was interesting and you're gorgeous so there's that Turn up the volume and keep up the good work.
I have heard of the Cleveland Street Scandal and I have to say it left me thinking that only half the story had been told.
I never understood why homosexuality was made illegal in the first place, like that made a difference. It struck me as a sop to the middle class. Also why was homosexuality made illegal while lesianism was not. Someone once said men could get two years hard labour in prison while women could do it as a show at the Albert Hall and sell tickets.
Same reason why trans women are looked down upon, despised by many cis men and not rarely not accepted by cis women, while trans men are more accepted.
Misogyny and the mind set that women are lesser, and their sexuality lesser important. Gay men and trans women are subconsciously seen as stepping down the ladder (effeminate, towards the "lesser" women). Lesbians weren't taken serious in the past. Denying them the concept of their own sexuality that doesn't derive from a man thus deemed only as playing around foolishly and harmlessly.
It's quite simple actually. Lesbians were a delight for the male gaze and Queer men were a threat to the patriarchal order. It's not really an issue of victorian morality.
I don't know, but it seems to be a theme across many cultures. Maybe because men made the laws?
@@derekcouzens9483 She didn't just think women didn't do that, she thought that it was *unthinkable* that they would do it.
@@derekcouzens9483 I choose to believe it :^)
J. Draper - Unapologetic killer of ear drums.
Love your new hair!
Is it just me or is the audio at a whisper?
Please fix the audio and re-upload !
Even at 100% volume with headphones on, I could barely hear a word you said.
You have the same haircut as me when I was in high school😂
, men but stil its fire
great content, sound level is a bit low?... thank you!
Sorry ms lang couldn't watch cause of the Xtra low volume. (sigh)
Extremely interesting content, even more so than usual . However, the only thing I could hear was the TikTok sound at the end even with my volume set at max. Not a problem I usually have with your vids....hmmmm???
Thankfully there were subtitles
The audio is so low even at full volume its very hard to hear
Love your hair style.
No sound with your video for some reason. I do like your work.
Love it! But was it just me or was the sound REALLY low?
Great video, no sound 👂
I remember reading this is some historical novel, interesting to find out why
Err ....confirmed by the Oscar Wilde trial?? Neither Oscar nor his Bosie were working class lads .
No, they were upper class men caught in a homosexual sex-scandal, which confirmed to the public that homosexualality was a particularly upper class issue.
Great video, but your audio was so quiet that the sound in the end just blew me away :D
But very interesting!
RIP, my eardrums at the end.
Interestingly I used to bonk a guy off Grindr who lived in that same building
Liked, shared and commented
Can't hear you at all. Gotta remake this one.
Ms Draper, you are simply the dream rabbit.
Gotta say "me too" on the audio issue, Draper. Sorry. There are a lot of videos on your channel that I thought the audio was just missing entirely, until I cranked my speakers all the way up to maximum. You need to work that out.
Back in the 1970's, it was child molesters. Where that's truly abhorrent, homosexuality is a matter of nature. Make it illegal, and there will be scandals like this. Having seen a soldier drummed out of the Army for being gay, it was obvious to me that the only crime here was the attitude of the hierarchy. (Who knows how many developed this apparent attitude as a cover for their own sexuality?)
Nature, that's a stretch, 😊
Fun fact, though: SUE the T. rex had gout, and I guarantee you they weren't living it up with the Prince of Wales... 😆
Please look at sound levels… even on max volume you're hard to hear.
always fascinating to see our collective bias through history. BTW your volume on this was very low, until the end with the tiktok logo which was very loud.
Audio issues, but HAIR IS ON POINT 🔥
Why was the volume so low on this video?
I could barely hear it!
I wanted to watch, but even turning up the volume to hi didn't work. I hope you can fix it and repost. 🙂🖖💕
This video is so quiet. Did you change something with the volume output?
Something is going on with the audio on this video. With headphones I normally have my system volume at about 10%. I had to turn my system volume up to 58% for this video, and the ad that came after it nearly boke my eardrums
That ending part is so true #MicDrop
Please fix the audio. I can't hear you and my phone is at full volume. Please please please
Red, White and Royal Blue for the 1890s?
Volume way tooooo low, can you re upload with higher volume please????
There is somebody on tiktok copying your videos. Didn't you had a tt Account before as well?
There's something wrong with the audio track on this. Did you have your gain set correctly?
long shorts are called jants (if they're made of denim)
Greta video! Great hair!!
VOLUME PLEASE!
If I’ve learned nothing from the podcast trashy divorces it’s that being the aristocracy’s horse person is indeed a very good job😅😆
record to low for volume. Have everything up all the way and still cant hear it
Were the contents of this vid too innapropriate for audio?
Fix the volume of this video please.
Comes from, how often these people portray themselves as shining beacons of humanity and have marked being homosexual and sexual frivolous as being depraved. So these stories tend to stick in your memory, like that story (thank you Stephen Fry):
An aide brought Churchill the morning paper with the news that one of his Cabinet Ministers would have to resign because he had been caught having gay sex with a Grenadier Guardsman in Green Park the night before.
Churchill said: “It was cold last night was it not?”
the aide replied: “Yes Sir, only 23 degrees”
Churchill replied: “Makes you proud to be British”
(whispering) why is the audio so low?
this is way late but I'd like to add that in Cuba during the revolution there was a large amount of homophobia because queerness was seen as bourgeois just as described, at least some Cubans fled because of it, so this idea was around as late as the 50s/60s. Thankfully nowadays Cuba is up there with the most progressive countries in the world when it comes to queer rights.