Stained Glass Ceilings: How the church does gender ft. Lisa Swartz
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- We talk to Lisa Weaver Swartz about her book Stained Glass Ceilings, interviewing people at two different seminaries (egalitarian and complementarian) to see how evangelicals negotiate gender.
We're focusing on the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in today's podcast.
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Lisa Weaver Swartz’ book Stained Glass Ceilings: amzn.to/3suzUfJ
A write-up of the amicus brief submitted on behalf of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary to deny victims the right to sue the organizations that failed to report and failed to protect: www.courier-jo...
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Timestamps:
3:00 Lisa joins to talk about her study on Complementarianism
11:00 Theology of the ‘gospel’
22:00 Are the genders polar opposites?
28:15 Southern’s take on marriage
36:20 How they make their ‘equality’ case
40:10 Stories of some single women at the seminary
45:20 Women’s ministry and wife groups
50:00 How the views of gender will continue in future
I asked a hard complementarian to explain male heads hip to me and she gave the example of a night that she was very tired and not thinking clearly and was getting ready to take the car out to run an errands. Her husband saw she was in no fit state to drive and told her no, which she said made her feel loved and cared for. But if my husband were getting ready to drive somewhere when he clearly shouldn't (which he would not do because he has more sense than that), I also would tell him not to and would even hide the keys if he got stubborn. That's just looking out for someone. None of the headship stuff I've heard makes sense to me anymore.
Didn’t ya know? Complementarian men *nEvEr* make unwise decisions. It’s biologically impossible for them to do so! MacArthur told us so himself! (Or maybe it was Dobson, I dunno…) 🫠
In all seriousness, I’d want to unpack with her 1) why she felt so under pressure to complete these errands when she was clearly under the weather and 2) why she only felt entitled to not go out (endangering herself and others) when her husband gave her such direction.
Yes, I've heard about husbandly infallibility. I am also aware that Eve's bad decision in the Garden of Eden means that all women at all times have poorer judgment than men. The chain of reasoning is flawless.
I knew a woman who wanted to be a teacher but her husband said no, you have to work at my company as an accountant so she did and i know a woman whose husband wanted to be a doctor in a boring country town but she wanted to stay in the city. Both of them were depressed about having to submit to their husbands.
In the first example, if the wife became a teacher, it would have no impact on the husband at all so I don't know why he made her submit to that when he knew it made her sad, but in the second example where you live effects both the husband and the wife. in an egalitarian marriage, where would the couple end up living? In the city or the country?
@@triumphantsoul9075They would have to actually discuss it. I figure if 12 strangers on a jury together can come to an agreement, a husband and wife should be able to do the same. And the wife's depression affects both, too.
@@triumphantsoul9075 that second example would require compromise on both sides. Either he looks for a small town near a big city so she can visit routinely or he commutes; or settle in a larger town with both big city and country elements. Neither should be miserable; and both should accept that we can find contentment and fulfillment in any non-toxic environment. What the final compromise would look like would depend on the couple.
Hard complementarians haven’t read The Merchant of Venice, and it shows:
“If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die?”
The actions of these so-called complementarians are cultish not scriptural. Women are infantilized by this “theology.”
So are men, weirdly. Any time a man sins, it’s “how they’re hardwired” or someone else’s fault.
Not knowing your salary and the umbrella thing … Seriously?!?! It’s like she feels proud of dumbing herself down. It’s so crazy that you just can’t even comprehend it.
Did anyone read Jill Duggar's book? In it, she says that after a few years of marriage, she asked her husband if he can look at women who wear pants without lusting. He said yes. If he can, why didn't he tell her that as soon as he met her? Why wasn't her the one to bring the subject up? Why did she have to bring it up? The Bible says that husbands are supposed to protect their wives. So, why didn't he feel the need to protect Jill from people teaching her mind-warping ideas such as extreme modesty dressing? And Jill has a lot of brothers too. If they can look at a woman wearing pants without lusting, why didn't they let her know either? Men are bizarre, how they just sit their in silence when things like this are being taught.
While I agree that there are many situations where men need to open their eyes and see the harmful messages that girls and women are bombarded with, and should speak up. Many times men aren't aware of many of these messages because they themselves are not told them. Jill's brothers definitely should have spoken up but when you r told since early childhood that if you see a woman in pants you are going to think sexual thoughts, you are going to believe it and it is also likely going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, plus their system benefits men so it is harder for the men to see the problems. Now, Derek on the other hand didn't grow up in Jill's culture. While he saw that all the women wear dresses, he probably wasn't told that the main reason why was because they believed that men think lustful thoughts just instictively if a woman is wearing pants. Many religions have certain dress codes for a variety of reasons and many don't come right out and say "it's because men are just biologically perverted creatures who think about doing it all the time with anything with two legs and breasts." These messages were instilled in Jill however since she was very small so to her it was equivalent to "the sky is blue." You don't mention things that you feel are common sense and universally known and true until something begins to shake that world view. Derek was probably shocked when she asked him that question, and only then realized that her family's beliefs weren't just different and a bit outdated, but wrong and harmful. I'm drawing a lot of conjecture but this is also very similar to my husband and myself. I was also exposed to a lot of toxic teachings and it wasn't until months into marriage that my brain began to reexamine them and I'd talk to him and he'd look at me like "what?" & I would be like,"This isn't something everyone is taught?" & he'd say, "no!" And I would just be blown away because I was taught these things frequently by different people and overtime starting very young where my brain filed it under universal truth.
Could you do an episode with real life examples of how a married couple who both want different things end up on the same page and how long it takes for them to do that? If a man wants to live on the other side of the planet for the rest of his life and the wife wants to stay and live close to family supports, where do they end up living?
Well, it seems to me they shouldn‘t have married in the first place if they want totally different things in life.
@@junibacken729 No one has 100% same goals. No one, for 50 years, is going to have 100% the same wants, so if you get married, you will marry someone who wants a lot of things that you don't want. :)
Gonna have to listen again when my weaning toddler isn't screaming at me!
But this sounds intriguing and fascinating.
I feel you, lol.
“Those women are going to have to convince their husbands…” … or it will be open season at Putney. 😁
Shelia -- Your point about the women at Southern Seminary. I graduated from SBTS the year before Al Mohler. The seminary had gradually transformed over the decades because of the training and empowerment of women through the Women's Missionary Union, which was I dependent of Convention oversight. When I attended, the Seminary Wives group was very small and of very little interest to most of the wives. I entered as a student who was single, but I met my husband there. We married halfway through my years there. I have noted with interest how Southern is repeating some of the patterns of gradual empowerment of women. I am curious to where that will lead and wonder if women (and men) in such strongly complementarian societal organizations.
I asked a question on here about a ministry and it was quickly deleted. Why was it deleted?
them tube wouldn't let me post a scripture by Ezekiel last night
at some video. Tried at least 5 times.
How we got there began in the Garden with the serpent showing the man how to deceive others to get your way, to blame others, giving him power and control over the other human-who happened to be woman, and attempt to be his own god.
I am just now in August 2024 listening to this broadcast. I have been increasingly bothered by a rigid and ruling view of men over women.
Yesterday I was looking for information on Google.
I was lead to this site and after I read some of this "Christian" man's views I felt unclean.
He sure did like to quote scripture though.
So God created man and woman was basically created to be man's sex toy and his chance to rule over a woman the way God (and I'd never actually heard this before) ruled over His bride.
To be clear man was made in God's image women even before the fall were not in God's image.
And to top it off He said God had three brides Israel, Judah and the church. So in fact men are not following the Bible it's ok to be polygamous.
And he was kind enough to give examples of why women should appreciate having co-wives.
And of course a woman wasn't to choose to be submissive she must be made to submit. Including of course even if she must be beaten.😡🤬😡