My personal change: I stopped buying models. 2020 (late 8ed/early 9ed) rules bloat changed my attitude towards GW. I was buying models, paints, books and other accessories almost every month, but it ended when I saw 9ed.
@@sifir7538 I felt cheated. When GW ended 7ed they were promissing on multiple occasions that there will be no more rules bloat like 7ed and that 8ed will be a living edition that will last long. Instead we got an even bigger rules bloat than 7th and an extremely fast change into 9th, with the new points breaking the balance 8ed achieved. They could add new terrain rules etc. with annual Chapter Approved's and FAQ's. Why make another edition?
@The Martial Lord of Loyalty when they could still he doing that with out the price Hicks. Are u aware that the machines they use. Pay for them selfs with in a year. So a year after getting the machines they use to make the moulds etc they are just full on profits machines. As the manintamece for these machines are pennies compared to how much money they make off each machine.
There are a frightening number of miniatures gamers who seem to believe that if a game is not "current" or "supported" it's not playable, or if you do play it it's somehow going to be bad by default. I can easily devolve into an "Old Man Yells At Clouds" rant on the subject but suffice it to say - you can play what you want, the Gaming Police will not show up and take away your army mans. It's ok to try new (err, old) things sometimes. Even things not made by GW (gasp).
Hacksaw's Hobby Bunker lol, yeah. I remember talking to a guy who hated 6th Edition and loved 5th. I was like “why not just keep playing 5th?” and he just scoffed at the idea. Weird.
I agree with this and think most people scoffing at this are competitive war gamers who want to keep going to tournaments. It still befuddles me because if that is what you get joy from then you think you’d be up for or at least used to and expecting of consistent change.
I’ve been watching this channel for a little while now and out of all the channels I’ve watched this guy has the most calming and welcoming voice it is amazing
Yeah that’s a nice thing about this analog hobby. Played my 2nd Edition Blood Bowl (with Star Players) a few years ago and it still ran the same. Change isn’t always improvement, but it’s so easy to opt out that it doesn’t worry me really. (I wonder if my 1988 box of Adeptus Titanicus still runs? I’ll test it as soon as I get the models painted. Any day now.)
House rules and adding in units not in the official rules too. Like Kill Team has some really odd gaps or limitations, even with Elites added in. But, in a casual game situation, you can play around with other units and try weird tactics. It's a short game, why not mess around and have fun?
"In the begining, new editions came every six years" "Then every five years, then four" "The newest edition lasted three years" "By next release we should expect to see an edition every year" "Fans, we should witness a double edition within 2 years." *Relationships & Wallet:* "And then we're dead"
They have to support the other systems too. I can see every three years.. I'd like to see them slow the fuck down a bit..Every 4 years seems like a happy medium .
I see this meme so frequently, but its not particularly accurate. RT > 2nd Ed (6 years), 2nd > 3rd (5 years), 3rd > 4th (6 years), 4th > 5th (4 years), 5th > 6th (4 years), 6th > 7th (2 years), 7th > 8th (3 years), 8th > 9th (3 years).They've basically just pushed out a new edition at a speed that coincides with their resources, and depending on how much people hate the current edition. At the moment it seems like they've settled on a 3-3.5 year release cycle, and I suspect they'll continue that. It gives them the time to do model updates for about 10 factions per edition, and 3 years worth of new tournament mission packs and all that, before they go in and try in and fix whatever the weakest parts of the current edition are, and start the whole thing over again.
Very well said, I’m currently doing exactly this and waiting. The only people I game with are my son and wife because of the current climate. It just makes sense to wait sometimes.
@@blueg6demon371 I painted 32 15mm tanks and around 70-80 15mm infantry when New Zealand was shut down. It was one of the positives I could take out of it. Enjoy your painting. :-)
I just use the old miniatures with new rules. Apart from slight visual changes the figures are still the same but just newer. You don't have to get rid of the old ones and buy the new. I veiw the new editions as just like patch for a video game. Just fixing problems editing bits here and there. But if something is older you can just, well use it. At the end of the day, you want to have fun. Fun is the reason most people play.
I'll be honest when they announced with the start of 8th that they were going to keep updating 40k with FAQs and General's Handbook etc I was quite excited after years of armies stuck with 4/5 year old books. However the reality is that as someone who doesn't play regularly I end up having to relearn rules everytime I play and I used General's Handbook once or twice before they need replacing. This in turn has led me to playing Bolt Action, Gaslands etc that see less regular updates.
This video is SPOT ON... I have gotten deep into Kill Team...and love it.... I gave up on keeping up with 40K when 6th turned to 7th then to 8th all so fast we couldn't keep up with getting all the books fast enough... We have 5 armies.... for now, if my son and I get into playing bigger than Kill Team games, we will house rule some 4th edition-ish Combat Patrol kind of thing, and play 500 or 750, or even1500 points of our armies, on my 3x4ft game table...with our 6th/7th edition codex books... etc... Some day, we MIGHT get into 9th edition, or 10th, or whatever.... but not until GW has an edition out, as well as all 5 or 6 codex books we would buy...and all before the end of the edition... I got fed up with GW when I bought a codex that just came out, and a few months later the edition changed... this caused a few year vacation from GW wargames, and a while of only painting and collecting....and reading the novels.... Kill Team sucked me back in.... but I really love Kill Team and can get a LOT of great enjoyment from it regardless of what GW does in the future with KT... I can make 4 more teams, or 6...without buying ANY more books. ...if they make a new version, update, expansion.... I MAY choose to get that, but I could also just play exactly what I already have now, for a couple decades.... and still build some more teams, a box of Deathwatch or some Tau or Necrons or more marines to make other chapters, or.... those models will still exist, and that is all I need... I really enjoy your channel, thanks for the videos!
Well said, Uncle Atom. Thanks for another insightful video. I have definitely noticed an uptick in concern regarding the new 9th edition rule set (online, in my flgs, etc.) and I don’t really understand why. As you say, if you like the previous version(s), and your not a competitive player, by all mean keep playing the version you prefer. The only “issue” that I’ve come across is that the army list builder I use (Battle Scribe) automatically updates to the latest rule set. Now my army lists that I set up for 8th edition aren’t valid for 9th. However, this really isn’t a huge deal as I have a few option/work arounds, such as email my 8th edition list to myself, ignore the errors that Battle Scribe throws, go old skool and use a pencil and paper to actually write out my army list, etc. Granted physically writing a list out isn’t all that appealing or convenient, but you get the idea. The point is, it’s your/our hobby. Hobby your own way. The way you enjoy it. That is, after all, the whole point. Thanks again, Uncle Atom. You are the man!
Thanks for putting this up, a lot of us non-neurotypical types enjoy wargaming and some of us have more trouble than other, I think its very kind and compassionate for you to validate this.
While I appreciate the mitigation of the problem in this argument, I'm not entirely convinced I have to say. The "sales cycle" of creating new content and making old content redundant in order to force "churn" is something that seems to be intrinsic in proprietary IP systems, and it's what pushed me out of GW games and into Historicals. At a certain point you can say "this army is finished forever and I dont need to buy anything else" when the peramaters are defined by history. There's no Primaris version of a Napoleonic army that pushes you to buy a lot of extra stuff to stay competitive. A dark ages guy with a spear and shield will be just fine for the rest of your life even if you use him in 6 different rulesets. Even with edition changes I've never had an army nerfed, Ive maybe had to buy a new rulebook, nothing like the forced churn for it's own sake to drive sales like I saw in sci-fi and Fantasy games.
But I think therein lies an issue with some 40k fans - I saw someone complaining that new releases are a slap in the face to 'long term collectors' and I've encountered these people before. Someone that's had the same 2000 point Space Marine army for over a decade is now complaining they feel compelled to buy Primaris. As this video says, you don't have to move to a new edition. But if you want to have your army list supported, to be able to go into stores and play games, it's a game of give and take. People want their aspect of the hobby to be supported without supporting the company
Jael Edwards , and yet Battlefront has managed to change the most competitive systems in FoW quite drastically over the last three volumes and also kept a lot of systems out of the latest version for years. So, it can be manipulated until your players leave in disgust at least. Also, historicals are now seeing lots of scale changing to odd scales (looking at you Warlord!) to add to the traditional enemy - the dreaded rebasing.
Do not have a problem with rules changes, but when they change models and army comp with the intent of forcing you to buy new models heck with them. Hence the newer interest in historical's, a Tiger 1 is the same in 1/56 scale reguardless of the rules set, so you never need to buy a new one. A squad of German DAK troops are not going to change much either. But when games change things just to sell models and make older versions of the same figs unusable "because you need the new models" then I will play something else. As for third ed 40K...sure, still have my rules, wargear cards, tactic cards, and Squat army. But what annoys me most is the Fan Boys who will only play the newest supported game. Still have BFG, Warmaster, Necromunda, and Mordheim armies but good luck trying to find players.
Agreed. As a business model they seem to think this track of getting the old faithfuls to spend more is best. But what they don't realize is that there are a lot of potential players who look at all this and turn away. They should create ways to attract new players.
Craig X what? I really don’t understand what you are getting at, and honestly, you are completely wrong. The newest version of minecraft is great anyway. Most servers use 1.8.9, though.
I mean it's true we don't have to get all the new books, we don't have to change editions, we don't have to get the new models and, we don't even have to play the game but at the same time GW doesn't have to nickel and dime us with codexs and apps that just open Google docs. It just sometimes feels like you're financially penalized for being part of the change and part of the Hobby. The increased prices of both old products that haven't change for years and new products is so high it's not only outrunning inflation it's outrunning the raises in a person's income which on average has not kept up well with inflation. I love Warhammer 40k and what GW are doing with game. They are talking with use and is not just some whole in the wall nerdy gross thing anymore. We are becoming more socially acceptable. The company has come a long way and I don't even mind most of changes. But I can't forget the egregious price hikes from FW and the sting of price increases and the high MSRP price of things like the new fortification for the space marines that's running $199. They do that at the same time they make some amazing things like the Indomitus box set which at the same $199 price tag is a great deal I just wish that set was the rule and not the exception to it. I see alot of people who cover games workshop seem to shy away from saying anything negative about the price hikes. Some even try to justify it as completely acceptable and it concerns me as it means they either don't want to say anything and upset GW or like many others seem to have developed Stockholm syndrome on the matter. I get it they are company, they need money but must they be so hungry and so greedy? We never hear about a price decrease on a old kit that's basically paid for it's mould, RnD, marketing and everything else that is used to justify the high price in the first place getting a decrease. Just my roll of pennies.
While I'm very much not the doomsaying caterwauler that some GW fans are, change with GW when it comes to models can be an extremely mixed bag. Don't want to spend 80 euro on a set of Sisters of Battle? Pay 45 euro(the same cost as primaris while costing just over half the in-game points) instead. Don't want to play the smol space marines? Pay hand over fist for the new types with none of the weapon options that made tactical squads interesting and spend as much money as you would have on a single old command squad for a single Apothecary. That's not even getting into how ruleswise Space Marine players have now gone through four different books in less than that many years for their rules sets, and that's not even including Psychic Awakening and the Chapter Supplements. Sure, change can be good. I think people are justified in being angry about most of the recent changes GW has been making though. It bites.
So...who's forcing people to buy any of the new products? Because if anyone is being forced to buy something, that's a problem. But that isn't happening, is it? Instead, there are a bunch of weak-willed babies who can't stand the idea of having to accept responsibility for their decision to buy the newest versions / editions of 40k. It's much easier for them to whine about GW releasing new product. If someone doesn't like the idea of spending hundreds of pounds/euros/dollars on the latest and greatest miniatures and rules, they're perfectly welcome to keep their money. It's astounding to me that so many people are so adamant about not accepting responsibility for their own actions. It's _obviously_ GW's fault that someone bought a shitload of 9th edition minis rather than the person spending the money...
adam harp The pretty obvious answer here is that they’re phasing out some things while others are required to keep up to date(codices). Not buying stuff sometimes isn’t an option while in others buying into an army is made entirely non feasible by changes, so writing off bad product scheduling or pricing isn’t at all applicable here.
@@DergonBaals Nope. You are not obligated to buy new marines if you want to keep playing with your shorties. If GW stops producing tac marine squads, the ones you already own won't somehow disappear. If they release seven new Space Marine Codices in the next six months, the ones you have on your shelf won't suddenly be blank. Not buying things is _always_ an option. People can continue playing 8th edition for the next 30 years, if they choose. GW moving into 24th edition in 30 years will have absolutely no bearing on people who want to keep playing 8th. People can even introduce new players to the older editions and use new models as "counts as X." Absolutely nothing GW does can prevent anyone doing exactly that. So, in the end, it really does just come down to people whining about not being able to exercise self-control. That's not GW's fault.
First off, let me say that I am glad that you are adapting well, after having seen some of these stressed out videos from earlier in the year. This actually was really good to see because my friend has some thing I call FOMO-fear of missing out- and it really hurts him when he gets talking about any of the tabletop game, for more gaming to any RPG you have to have a supplement for.
thanks for the advice Atom! i was thinking of buying the new rules yesterday too! haha, im really glad i didnt now though! this will give me a chance to maybe buy into a new army before i actually start thinking about a new book. My shop doesnt even have any tables open right now so i just need to focus on making my models look battle ready!
It is true the hobby is a lot of fun in all the stages, from drooling over new releases all the way to the ever evolving fluff and subsequent rule changes. I'm old hammer and been into it since the eighties. So much has changed, and for awhile I was sure all the new computer games would have the next generation of players...Instead it's held up and the depth of variety and options have become truly wonderful. Also the art made with gaming for inspiration has become just awesome. I agree that rule modifications should be open to any style, outside of tournaments it's the wild west.
Gotta say, after a good few games, 9th edition is a better game than 8th, so I'm happy to get the new bits and bobs as and when I want. I like reading the books and things, so I'll get them as and when I want as well. It's very rare that the sky is actually falling, and a new edition of a tabletop game is definitely not one of those times.
I'm currently in the opposite side of the spectrum lol. Playing 3rd edition that's very campaign/narrative centric. Having a blast with the past really.
It's all well and good to say "If you want, just play an older edition" - that's great if you have a regular gaming group. But even if you're not a competitive player, pick up games are going to be even harder to find with that philosophy. You might think that's not as common as people say - but that's because you've obviously got a group of players that you regularly play with. Given the way that modern work schedules and other obligations are, there are a lot of us who only get a chance to play rarely and not always among the same group of people. Sure, there are people who still play Third - but I'll bet they can't walk into a shop on any given day and get a pickup game with anyone. So yes, we're more or less stuck with the latest edition, and it comes off as kind of a pat answer to dismiss that - and typically comes from people who are fortunate to have a regular gaming group.
Yeah this is me - I DON'T have a regular gaming group of gaming buddies, and all of my games are exclusively played at the friendly local game store. That basically means that at some point, I'll *have* to upgrade to the new 9e books because I don't have a choice in the matter. Granted, we're in the middle of a pandemic, and I've already made the choice to not purchase anything 9th edition at this time... but eventually I'll have to suck it up and do it anyways.
You completely ignored the first half of the video. The summary version is: Change will always happen, and on some level you have to learn to accept that, BUT if you have a group of players who all like an old edition then there's always the option to just keep playing that instead.
@@silver4831 IV give the hobby up. I'm fed up of games workshop money grabbing attitude. And only really paying any attention to primaris It's a shame they done so much hard work the get the business back in order
@@liamhgd581 I feel your pain. This game is too cool and they keep changing it and costs more coin. It sucks, and they've been doing it for years. I tried to get out, I was gone for 5th , 6th and 7th. I got back in for 8th, and it's gone again. So I only game with my friends anymore. GW only supplies the plastic, we don't need their ever-changing rules.
In my experience, Games Workshop offer us a few consumer friendly options. There's full blown 2000 point W40K BUT, there's cheaper and easier entries: -Kill Team W40K for less than £50. A box of models is all that's needed. - W40K 500 point Combat Patrol for 9th ed for about £75 or £100 with the corebook. PERFECT MIDDLE GROUND between Skirmish and 2000 point W40K -Both these options are easy on time, wallet and space. Models that last for decades like old Space Marines. The rulebooks always acknowledge the older models. Your models should never be entirely replaced, simply balanced by chapter approved, which allows GW to make money whilst allowing you to keep your models. Whilst I understand the annoyance around the rule books required and their pricing, like Uncle said, if you don't play competitive, you really dont have to invest. You can play with friends and family with old editions If you do, just thinking of the yearly chapter approved as recurring yearly fee, to keep the hobby alive and for you to keep using your models. As your models a one off cost, and if revenue was only generated through one off payments, GW wouldn't be as big as it is, as your models last ages (a good thing) It would be nice for GW to use a live online document, that updates, so just one book. But then I don't know how feasible that is for them to run financially. Books might be their main and only consistent revenue stream. That said Star Wars Legion has one rulebook, same with X Wing, and they have a free app too.
But even X Wing came with version 2.0 where you had to buy replacement dials for several ships and other physical items were changed or newly introduced as well. Probably only a matter if time until Legion has that happen as well, unless it dies out.
@@pvzandbeek Exactly. And that's fine! All you need were conversion kits but you get to keep your models! Isn't that cool? For your wargame to be balanced, refreshed or rebooted but your collection remains? Yet people where complaining SO much. X Wing needed a 2nd edition due to how bloated and power creepy it got. Love Star Wars Legion! X Wing is great too, but I prefer Legion.
The problem I have with the GW changes is that back in 1993, I purchased the Space Marine box set that contained plastic sprues that would eventually be known as the Mark VI Corvus Pattern armour. When ever someone saw the missile launchers, they would observe, “so you’ve been playing for a while.” When the 32mm scale came out, the size difference was not that significant, and I used the two sizes together. Now we have the Primarus Marines, and it appears that they are the replacement for the 32mm marines. When that happens, I won’t be able to use the old figures. Just like when they revamped the orks in the late 1990s. I have been playing “Battletech” since it was “Battledriods.” New mechs keep coming out, but the mech figures I purchased back in the late ‘80s are as playable now, as they were back then. This is true for Ogre/GEV, and just about every other game out there. I have no problems with the system changing, It is just I can’t keep buying more figures.
I think one reason people get irritated with new editions, especially for AOS and 40k, is that we love to list build and theorize about what army would work best. We enjoy working out the puzzle of the perfect army. I suspect for many people the challenge of list building is nearly 50% of the fun. Thus a new edition suddenly makes it impossible to engage with the hobby until the new rules are purchased and their ramifications understood, creating that sense of "I have to purchase this and spend more money than I really want to". I use to play the list building route and feel like a recovering addict every time a new addition comes out. Lately, for recovery, I have instead been focusing on games that don't lean heavily on list building (Frostgrave and Warcry for example). I like some list building, but I want it to be maybe about 10% of the game. When I do engage in GW's big games, I try and focus on purchasing only models that look cool to me, take my time painting them, and build up a story around the army. In this manner, I don't need to worry about whether or not I can "compete". My joy in the game should come out of seeing the narrative experience play out on the table, which is more sustainable on the wallet and my back log of unpainted miniatures. This means one army can give me repeated good experiences without needing to update it or tweak it after I suffer a catastrophic defeat. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts Uncle Atom, they helped me clarify mine.
@@barbarusbloodshed6347 I am beginning to agree. I tried collecting an AOS army only buying and purchasing units I wanted to paint or that looked cool. When I play the game, I just get massacred because I didn't buy the "right" models. More over, I just found the game annoying to play. So I'm heading over to historical games, or other war games that don't seem to have as much list building. However, I will always enjoy painting GW's models. Just not playing their games.
I'm not really sure I 100% buy the "you can always play X old game" line. I guess the problem is that wargaming is an inherently multi player experience, and if you can't find someone else who wants to play an older version of the game with you, then it doesn't really matter that you still have those old rules. To use Uncle Atom's own video game example, it's a bit like trying to go play an old multiplayer video game - you could actually play it if you wanted to, but the servers are gone. There's no players. Wargaming isn't really different - you don't often see people running tournaments and events for 3rd edition 40K, because the majority of people want to play what's current. I mean, it is what it is and a new edition has never been the end of the world - I just think that saying "technically you can still play older editions" is a bit of a cop out. Technically, you can - it doesn't mean anyone else will want to.
@@Bacxaber warhammer fantasy was killed off unceremoniously and replaced with Age of Sigmar, which a huge chunk of fantasy players felt was a slap in the face. The playerbase split 5 ways: Those who took up AoS, those who kept playing WHFB 8th, the guys playing fan made 9th age, some took up Kings of War, and the rest quit altogether.
Had an idea for a video! Without getting too lost in the specifics of point costs or things like that, could you do a video about turning one of your KillTeams into a Combat Patrol or some other 40k proper detachment? Would also be nice to know exactly what books and stuff to buy. Your vid on the full rulebook vs the supplements was great, but as a KT player I felt like I was missing a lot of context. Love the vids, keep up the great work!
I think I prefer Osprey's approach to wargames rules, consistently release a variety of self-contained rulebooks and let the authors create new content. I'm building up quite the collection of Osprey skirmish games covering a range of settings.
Great video. When I was first getting into 40K with an old 3e book I found second hand, I went into a "game shop". This was around the start of 5e or 6e. The employee was very friendly and polite and informed me that I just could no longer play with my old book. I should buy the new $80 hardcover. He was only doing his job but I couldn't help myself. I replied "really? I think my old book still works". Haha! I eventually bought the box set with the softcover rules. My friends and I now play with a Frankenstein creation of rules from 4 editions.
That’s me, 3rd edition. My semi annual 40k games with family members do it for 2 reasons. 1: that’s the edition we all started on So there is sentimental plug and B: that’s the edition we know best....maybe some modification but 3rd edition core rules
I must admit I am taking a wait and see approach to 9th edition. Given the current issues and my preferred army (Deathwatch), I have no reason to buy anything new until at least October.
look at mtg for example - you invest like 300$ on broken deck in standard (not talking about multiple thousands decks in other formats) Next year after rotation your deck is not legal anymore and you gotta get a new one if you wanna keep playing competitive
Good points there mate. You don't need to buy everything or all at once. For example I have only purchased the Kill Team rule book and there's a couple of reasons for that, I only play the game once or twice a month and between my mates we have every supplement between us.
My buddies and I have been playing Apocalypse 2019 instead of 40k. We love the 40k models, but not the rules since they are rather anachronistic these days. We come from other miniatures games that use more modern rules systems in a skirmish style with alternating unit activations, like Star Wars Legion, Song of Ice and Fire, etc. Since Apocalypse 2019 uses 40k models and actually has alternating detachment activations, we have been playing that. But now with 9th edition 40k and it's improved rules set, and improved Narrative Crusade rules, we are reconsidering our use of the main 40k rules. However, we have one major tweak that we are implementing to the 40k rules: Alternating activations, none of this my whole side goes, then your whole side gibberish. Goes like this: Shared Command Phase. Then first player picks a unit and does it's Move, Psychic, Shooting, Charge and Fight phases. First player marks that unit as activated. Then second player picks a unit and does its Move, Psychic, Shooting, Charge and Fight phases. Second player marks that unit as activated. First player picks another unit to activate, back and forth, so on and so on until all units by both players have had a chance to activate. Then shared Morale Phase at the end of the round. Brings it into alignment with Apocalypse 2019, and other skirmish style games with more modern rules sets. We have been having a lot of fun with 40k this way, and no plans to stop.
My main complaint with the launch of 9th is that the last Space Marine Codex came out last year.... it’s a little bit of a feel bad to have to update 12 months later
Excellent video. The only thing I am a bit confused is, why GW needs to update the rules editions so often? Let's compare to other tabletop giant, Dungeons & Dragons. They are owned by Hasbro (not a small company). But when 5th edition came out in 2014, they said it will be at least 10 years, until 2024 before the 6th edition comes out. And if you look at the sales figures of the 5e, it might take even longer. So if Hasbro can do a 10 year plan on edition, why GW needs to update things so often?
I actually preordered the Chapter Approved and then the day of the release with the announcement of the marine codex being in October, returned it since I wasn't likely going to be getting any games in the next two months.
Back when I read Warseer forums a lot, one user (Yabbadabba) was quite outspoken about this idea. You own the rules. You can change anything you want, and fix the game for yourself. Really, there is nothing to fear if you're playing with friends. Its trying to get games together at FLGS that is the issue, and where the edition treadmill presents a problem.
Excellent message that people need to hear. There’s two concepts that if you understand them it will make your life much easier. 1. Normal is fluid 2. Stillness is death
As someone who still plays older editions of games I appreciate this message. However older games are not without their issues, one big hurdle is the limited player pool available, as a good percentage of gamers will adopt the new editions. Change isn't always done to improve, but rather to promote sales. I think GW are quite guilty of this.
I had to stop playing 40k because of job situation at the end of 6th edition. I'm coming back for 9th edition but honestly so much has changed it doesn't even feel like the same game. Strategems? Warlords? Where are my vehicle front/side/rear armor tables? Where's my vehicle wargear? What is Power Level? Vehicles have wounds now?? Degrading stat lines?! Each army has mini sub faction rules?? I don't even want to talk about the laughably bad game I had vs ultra marines. It was the least fun I've ever had gaming. I like the new objective-based style of play but having to unlearn deeply engrained mechanics and relearn stuff that didn't exist back then makes me feel old and disappointed. There's so much new complexity I can't remember it all. Back in my day if you wanted this much complexity you played Warhammer Fantasy. Oh wait. That doesn't exist anymore. :( So yes, change is inevitable and fine. Some of us just can't keep up. Thank you for letting me rant/cry a little bit.
Nice, mature and reasoned response to change. Well done. Yes it happens, but yes you can still play 2nd edition if thats what you and your friends want.
Getting back in the hobby from scratch, with nothing to start with, I'm not worried about my old stuff being outdated or whatnot. And yeah, we'll toss out that caveat that "Indomitus isn't a starter set", but hey, it had the full rulebook and minis, so good enough. But, even aside from the lack of defining "Angels of Death" rather than every marine refering to the codex, it seems off to have to wait until October for the Codex. Likewise, Power Levels are fine, but having the Chapter Approved (for points) as a separate buy at launch is also a little odd. They should have (imo) at least announced or discussed the actual Starter Sets before Indomitus presale, to let folks know when/what would be coming. It's just an odd launch of a new edition of a game for me.
Great points as always. For me as I've gotten more 'into' Wargames I've become less worried about changing ruleset; the last edition of 40k I have the 'core' rules could be summarised on 7 pages only... and being fair I could happily continue playing 3rd Ed (change doesn't always bring betterment). That said I'm open to seeing what the new ruleset is. I do think fear of financial cost plays a part, GW stuff isn't cheap, and reletively I think it used to be much more affordable (codexes £8-10), but as you say, you can wait and choose whether or not you buy in.
My biggest gripe about ninth edition is that here it’s almost a week after it’s launch, and the GW US store still hasn’t shipped the new rule book, the Chapter Approved, and a couple other items that I preordered two weeks before launch. GW doesn’t have an active phone line, and their email queue is apparently 10 days long. So maybe in a week or so, I’ll get an email from them about why they’re sitting on my preorder.
Still playing 8th ed WHFB, hoping for some variety from when ForgeWorld releases their Old World Wars... ...love the old game, but when there’s only 4 of you at the FLGS still playing the OOP game variety is good.
Rules wise, I'm totally fine with things being refreshed every few years. GW is a business, and it makes sense from a financial perspective. What I do have a small issue with is the points changes; I bought pretty much an entire 2000 pointa worth of Orks this year during the lock down, and painted about 60% of them by the time the new points costs were released, and about half of the models that I already painted have been priced out of my army (lots of grots, stormboyz, big mek with shock attack gun and grot tanks from forgeworld), and if I had any inkling that the points were going to change so drastically, I would not have even bought these models to begin with, not to mention spending the time to assemble and paint them.
Great video. My fear of spending a lot of money and time on models and having everything change and screw up my army has continued to hinder my enjoyment. With the new edition of 40k my philosophy is going to be to collect and paint what I like and have everything to change up my lists and stuff.
I feel that's always going to be the way to go. The most vocal complainers tend to be the ones that have sunk money into the most competitive army, not one they genuinely like
You're always best off buying and painting what you like. Worrying about the bleeding edge of the meta is for people who specifically enjoy that, or have a huge collection and can always dig into it and pull out a list of stuff that just became good again. When you're still building up your collection you'll find that just completing projects you enjoy actually makes you happy, rather than endlessly chasing changes to the rules and being salty when whatever you're working on isn't quite as good anymore by the time you're ready to play with it.
In my time I've seen quite a few Edition Wars, some never end like people will still get into heated arguments over which version of D&D is best or they should play. While every thing Atom said is true, it's also true that with 40k, whatever is tournament standard informs and trickles down into almost all levels of play. Once you get outside of your own home table, that is the standard level of rules most people will expect you to play by, even if its a "just for fun" game. Even in a "just for fun" match, the prize is often bragging rights and most people even if they never go to a tournament want to feel like they could compete at that level. So even if its just a matter of perception and public opinion, people will feel like you have to play up to that standard to feel validated. Most of the people who played 40k like a RPG and considered a game of it a mutual story-telling event have moved on as the competitive nature of the game has been more and more emphasized.
I personally stopped playing 40K about 10 years ago due to the fact it was taking 6 hours to play a game, I sold everything bar a few interesting figures and moved to other systems. Now they brought out killteam and streamlined the games and made them more scalable it's brought me back to 40K and I'm having a blast. It does get a bit annoying when you have say three version of a game in 3 years, like what happened with Dust Tactics with the switch over to FFG, which is why I stopped playing Dust.
Very good vid and as an older gamer I am starting to realise that the new edition isn’t necessary. Next to me is my 8th Edition fantasy and they still play fine. I started to realise this as new editions I found I wasn’t a fan of, like AoS, like 3rd Edition Warmachine. Jury is still out on the latest edition of Flames of War. As I’m getting older my deposable income can’t keep up either. This may sound ageist, but is it a young person thing? The need to have the latest thing. Maybe I’m wrong.
I don't think it's ageist at all. Younger people in general are objectively more likely to believe the newest thing is the best thing. It even makes sense, considering the diminished durability of so many things as time goes on. How many times do we look at something made in the 1950s that's still functioning as well now as when it was new, while a similar product made in the past 10 years is either obsolete or nonfunctional? Engineered obsolescence is very much a thing, and younger people have very little actual experience with anything that isn't engineered to be replaced in 5-10 years, if that long. Also, as we get older, we realize that many of the things were thought were so incredibly important when we were younger just don't matter that much. I've been playing tabletop games since the late 1980s. I have friends who still play 2nd edition 40k and AD&D, and I still sometimes join in.
I'm in the same boat. When we first got into this stuff, we got the current edition at the time and learned it, because why start out with an expired version? For the older generation back then it was "new fangled" but now we are old and miss the stuff we started out with. It's not ageist. It's just what getting old means.
will we start getting changes to make the factions cooler and have funky rules or are we just gonna continue to where all factions have a chapter master, lietutenant, and identical unit functions? When will ork players be able to turn their enemies into squigs again?
Thing that tics me off the most (happened with Flames of War) is just as soon as you get the last army book and campaign book they rewrite the rules and change point values so you HAVE to get the next incarnation of all of them over the course of the next few years. Then they do it again and again. If I spend all that time and money getting the rules and supplements, at least give us a few years to use em before rewrites. Or better yet, stop screwing with the point values so we can use them with the new rules sets.
That's why my main wargames are stuff from Firelock Games. As Mike Tuñez said: wrote good, well-balanced rules and all you need to do is to keep up little, flexible updates like FAQ. And it works really, like REALLY well with their Blood and Plunder. I love Warhammer, I just cannot follow all news from GW with my wallet. Next game in my TOP3 (with Blood and Plunder on top like I said before) is ith edition of warhammer fantasy battle and good old Mordheim. I'm waiting for new-old world but I have hope that they will not keep "update" it with every 12 months!
You are right about the freedom we have to play with things in regards to this hobby, and it goes beyond staying with one company. I'm working on a stats swap for 40k figures to use them with the Warzone Resurrection 2nd ed rules.
@Craig X I wouldn't, that would be rude. A shop that is trying to sell 40k doesn't need someone rocking up with a different rule set confusing things. But shops aren't the only place to play these games. There are plenty of clubs that don't mind what rule set you're using, as long as you are playing your weekly subs. And if you have a table at home you can experiment and chop and change to your hearts content.
I tend to disagree on this topic. If you live in a small city and the community gets the new editions, you "need" to keep up even if you don't play as competitve gamer. Rulebooks are too expensive, even the digital editions. The worst thing about this is "the new is always better" rule to sell new models, like in Necromunda when GW launched Enforcers and then Corpse Grinders. Think about the Primaris in 40K. Every new team is way OP than the olders. In fantasy happened several times for different types of units: chivalry was good in some edition and then suddenly was rubbish, you needed to get some warmachines or something different, I bet it's the same in AoS and 40K.
@@s2korpionic You can houserule everything in fact, but like I said, in a small city if 8 ppl want to upgrade and only 2 want to houserule, at the end everyone "needs" to upgrade.
@@Kelembor this is truth, i live in a vary underpopulated sate (Vermont) and we have exactly one store in the state that supports 40k and most people there fallow the new editions. if i want to get any games in there that mean i usually have to play the most recent edition.
"Just calm down a little bit" is a great bit of general advice for life as a whole, and not just wargaming. Great video, Atom. It's like D&D (or literally any hobby game with rules that has multiple iterations) - lots of people still play previous editions. If a group likes 2nd edition, they don't have to play 5e. Same with GW games.
I think in tabletop in my experience the biggest change thats hardest to deal with will always be an aesthetic one. maybe because rules are not ever truly set in stone but the art is forever i guess? The most obvious example i can think of lately was Nightvault shifting to Beastgrave and dropping all of its aesthetic and colours for this honestly kind of foul '90's soda orange' colour on everything while shifting from things like ghosts and skaven to beastmen and ghouls. Don't get me wrong i have horrible taste so all the Beastgrave warbands were day one buys for me, but not for anyone else i know that played Underworlds. The 'Rona didn't help but even before it the launch of season 3 was a hard 'meh' and i honestly think that the biggest issue was the hard change to aesthetic and art that was so different to Shadespire and Nightvault.
I'm kind of having a break year from the hobby due to various personal things but I do feel like 9th edition was kind of rushed: They hadn't finished publishing the Psychic Awakening book line before announcing and beginning play testing on a new edition. I was excited to buy the faction book for my army once things relaxed for me in a couple months but now it's "expired". Obviously, 8th still exists in rulebooks but it will be harder to find opponents because it's a co-operative game and generally playing with people you don't already know well predicates playing with the current rules. I recognize that some people will complain about a new edition even if it comes out ten years later, for free and only with vital changes. Still, the change to 9th edition feels very sudden and like it puts a lot of very recently bought material immediately under the bus. People have to step back and spend the money and take the time to learn new rules... I sort of think that this approach burns people out on the hobby and I am worried that this may happen with me as well, so I do wish that you had taken a slightly more empathetic approach than "Change is scary and some people don't like it just because". I think there's a reasonable position that Warhammer is bringing supplements that are essentially game changing and required to compete in tournament and even GW storeplay at such a rapid pace that it's easy to fall off the wagon and feel left behind if you don't have the time or money to constantly be racing to the next edition. I don't play other wargames but I feel like RPGs have a much more balanced approach to this: Editions can last for a decade with constant updates that focus on non-required optional material (In wargaming, this could be stuff like missions, terrain, maybe even different game styles and army comps that players can agree to)...
The thing I've always hated is warhammer 40k is not a cheap hobby and some times it takes you years to save up and paint an army just to have a new edition of the game come out and your whole army is now worthless because they changed the way the armies are structured / in my case just neglected to add the chaos legion I was playing as that had there own set of special rules.... Now I don't even play the game and I just paint models every now and then and make terrain for friends who do play... Games workshop killed the gaming part of warhammer for me and now all I have left is painting.
I left out I was playing 4th edition tournaments / playing games at stores as Chaos Iron warriors. When 5th edition came out they where no longer in the chaos codex and where reduced to being a regular chaos undivided legion with no special rules.
Just started painting, the time it takes for me to paint a model i might aswell wait until the 10th edition until i start learning how to play this game lmao.
I have a tournament coming up in like 3 weeks. I have been preparing for it for a long time already, playing with a bud. Trying to get all my stuff painted and ready
To me that's part of the fun of the hobby... then again I don't buy everything, just the stuff I like. But I like the storyline moving forward, the influx of new players and everyone starting on the same page again for a few months.
I've only just gotten into WH40K and AOS this year as a painting hobby. My first actual game I'm trying to learn is Warcry. I'm wondering how editions go as far as that is concerned as it's my understanding that Warcry is relatively new.
My biggest gripe is building a whole army and and then having it completely ruined by a new edition or codex. Sometime a rule slightly changes, and you have to completely re-model your army to acommodate. Snapping off limbs and changing weapons isnt fun.
Tabletop games fill an interesting niche in that their products are not perishable. If you like wood-working, you always need to buy materials to work with. If you cook, you're always at the store buying stuff. With TT games, particularly models, once you have an army done the way you want it, you're DONE. The only way to keep the money flowing is to get new players (not always easy), convince the current players to invest in a new army (can be expensive), or sell new stuff. The issue with 'sell new stuff' is that your current players have a significant investment in time and money in their current stuff and that's a BIG reason to be worried about change. The TT gaming industry is not readily sustainable as an industry.
Molds also break down, so new sculpts of old models are sometimes necessary. Sometimes the new sculpts are because the old ones are outdated, and cooler new sculpts can be made. And yes, sometimes it's just for cash.
Well, my "library" has main rules and codex/army books for WHF since 6th edition and 40K since 2nd edition. This is - apart from the bibliophilia and collector thing - extremely relaxing when it comes to gaming. I have the CHOICE. It's great!
Great information for new comers like me, Started collecting and playing AOS and 40k This year and didn't bother buying the new general hands book 2020 nor the other random books for 40k because I mainly play with friends or family. can save a lot of money and also it isnt actually required as long as both parties agree to not use those new books.
While it's always good to see improvements, my biggest gripe with updates is having multiple models made illegal due to arbitrary rule changes. I have an unhealthy pile of heavily converted minis that are little better than spiky paperweights. This was all a result of constantly streamlining the rules and removing choice in options.
The thing is that GW never really fixes anything with new editions, it's just a reboot to sell more books, it's quite evident they don't even playtest their stuff anymore. Look at the amount of books, FAQs etc people had to have at the end of 8th edition 40k just to play the game, and 8th was supposed to be the edition that would get rid of that problem. 9th hasn't been out for more than a few weeks and it's already got it's first FAQs, is full of errors and imbalanced units/rules. Some people say "But it's because GW intends for the rules to be played with the new codexes", of which the first one drops in october, following the classic GW release rate the last faction in the game to get their 9th edition codex will get it right before 10th edition. I would actually embrace change in 40k but the problem is the opposite, GW keeps making the same dipshit moves edition after edition and everything stays the same.
Have been in the game long enough to know that new editions will come... also to know that an entire reset of the game will happen (reference to AoS), so adapting to change is the easier way to continue gaming and playing with others (when is safe). Locally with friends we to a beerhammer or garagehammer just for fun and send most of the rules to the trash can and end up using house rules to make it fun for everybody...
IMO, there’s a LOT of potential benefits and value to keeping up with the most recent versions, and if I hear a gamer say he “has to get the new...” or similar, I know what he means is not that because it’s the law. It’s because that player does not want to miss out on all the benefits and value of being on the same version as the big community. FOMO is a thing. Furthermore, and this is just one old fart’s opinion, gamers buy into many of these games for all that value. Without that value, the price would not be worth it to many players (this varies by game to me). So when a company makes bad changes, they are quite possibly taking away value that a player has already paid for. Gamers may always grumble, but often it’s completely predictable because it’s so often justified.
people complained when GW were making 1 codex in 5 years. Now people complain that they need to buy new stuff to play. Nobody is forcing players to play new edition - they still can play whatever edition they want. there is so many other stuff to enjoy in GW games - painting minis, playing box games, reading books, playing video games. I personally think it amazing thing what Ge do recently.
I have never been in a deeper hobby hole in my life. How wrong I was thinking this pandemic would give me so much time to build and paint! That WAS the case for the first month or so. But now, 5 months later: my cat knocked a sec mech terrain piece off my shelf yesterday and it came apart and will need to be re-glued. It's still sitting there...
"Meta" gaming is the problem... Looking for tips to improve is one thing... Whole gaming communities running the same lists...that is a problem... With that, then you see nerfs, and then people who were playing with something they liked, in the balance of their game, now have stuff thats useless...and drives them away...
Get out of here with your toxic generalist comments. The competitive community has done a lot more good for the game then bad, and most casual 40k hobbyists will never see, or fully understand that. You have no idea what you're talking about, and comments like yours just proliferate unnecessary echo chambers about people who enjoy the game differently then you. Scumbag.
@@hyozanman I hope your referring to op and not i...if so...then you are the problem. Instead of just spamming hate, how about asking why they feel that way. But of course, you're probably one of those little turds who can't have an original thought and thus take offense to simple phrases. And that, I have no pity for...go back to paying people for their work and abusing fellow gamers/hobbyists original ideas in your own echo chamber theybie
Nope, it's called 'designed obsolescence' and it is a deliberate ploy to keep pulling cash out of your wallet. In my case, it convinced me to switch to historical wargaming.
"You dont need 9th ed codexes if you're not playing yet." No, that's not true. How do you know how to build and paint your kits in preparation of play if you dont have the datasheets and keywords? It's kinda hard to guess at how many special weapons a squad can have without that info.
My Indomitus box arrived today so for this edition I support change entirely. If I was unable to have gotten the box, I would be vehemently opposed to any and all change. It's best to remain logical about these things.
My buddies and I played 40k 2nd Edition through 3rd and the start of 4th Edition before we stopped playing. We didn't want to spend money on the books (We were poor high school/college kids). I'd like to get back into the game... but I don't know when COVID will let anyone get together to game again.
"Change is the only constant in the universe"
- Tzeentch
My personal change: I stopped buying models. 2020 (late 8ed/early 9ed) rules bloat changed my attitude towards GW. I was buying models, paints, books and other accessories almost every month, but it ended when I saw 9ed.
@@skywatcheradept what changed your oponion about 9th? The new Codex?
@@sifir7538 I felt cheated. When GW ended 7ed they were promissing on multiple occasions that there will be no more rules bloat like 7ed and that 8ed will be a living edition that will last long. Instead we got an even bigger rules bloat than 7th and an extremely fast change into 9th, with the new points breaking the balance 8ed achieved.
They could add new terrain rules etc. with annual Chapter Approved's and FAQ's. Why make another edition?
Dosent justify ripping your customers off exspesally when the company has seen the growth it has in the last two years
@The Martial Lord of Loyalty when they could still he doing that with out the price Hicks. Are u aware that the machines they use. Pay for them selfs with in a year. So a year after getting the machines they use to make the moulds etc they are just full on profits machines. As the manintamece for these machines are pennies compared to how much money they make off each machine.
There are a frightening number of miniatures gamers who seem to believe that if a game is not "current" or "supported" it's not playable, or if you do play it it's somehow going to be bad by default. I can easily devolve into an "Old Man Yells At Clouds" rant on the subject but suffice it to say - you can play what you want, the Gaming Police will not show up and take away your army mans. It's ok to try new (err, old) things sometimes. Even things not made by GW (gasp).
Hacksaw's Hobby Bunker lol, yeah. I remember talking to a guy who hated 6th Edition and loved 5th. I was like “why not just keep playing 5th?” and he just scoffed at the idea. Weird.
This is the entire ethos of the Oldhammer movement.
I know people who still play Crypt of the Sorcerer and Caverns of Doom. The old Heritage miniatures games from the 80s
I agree with this and think most people scoffing at this are competitive war gamers who want to keep going to tournaments. It still befuddles me because if that is what you get joy from then you think you’d be up for or at least used to and expecting of consistent change.
we play 15mm Ancients rulesets from the 70s and they work just fine
I’ve been watching this channel for a little while now and out of all the channels I’ve watched this guy has the most calming and welcoming voice it is amazing
Yeah that’s a nice thing about this analog hobby. Played my 2nd Edition Blood Bowl (with Star Players) a few years ago and it still ran the same. Change isn’t always improvement, but it’s so easy to opt out that it doesn’t worry me really. (I wonder if my 1988 box of Adeptus Titanicus still runs? I’ll test it as soon as I get the models painted. Any day now.)
House rules and adding in units not in the official rules too. Like Kill Team has some really odd gaps or limitations, even with Elites added in. But, in a casual game situation, you can play around with other units and try weird tactics. It's a short game, why not mess around and have fun?
Yep, got some friends into wargaming a few years ago by starting a Mordheim campaign.
"In the begining, new editions came every six years"
"Then every five years, then four"
"The newest edition lasted three years"
"By next release we should expect to see an edition every year"
"Fans, we should witness a double edition within 2 years."
*Relationships & Wallet:* "And then we're dead"
There will be a time, maybe not too far in the future, when a new edition comes ot and the FOLLOWING edition already came out last week!
They have to support the other systems too. I can see every three years.. I'd like to see them slow the fuck down a bit..Every 4 years seems like a happy medium .
I see this meme so frequently, but its not particularly accurate. RT > 2nd Ed (6 years), 2nd > 3rd (5 years), 3rd > 4th (6 years), 4th > 5th (4 years), 5th > 6th (4 years), 6th > 7th (2 years), 7th > 8th (3 years), 8th > 9th (3 years).They've basically just pushed out a new edition at a speed that coincides with their resources, and depending on how much people hate the current edition. At the moment it seems like they've settled on a 3-3.5 year release cycle, and I suspect they'll continue that. It gives them the time to do model updates for about 10 factions per edition, and 3 years worth of new tournament mission packs and all that, before they go in and try in and fix whatever the weakest parts of the current edition are, and start the whole thing over again.
Can you do a topic covering "Worrying about Balance in Wargaming"
Yes please.
'Balance in Wargaming'? what's that?
@@artistpoet5253 it's when 2 gamers play while perched on tightropes
Followed up by "Worrying about worrying".
Just throw more orks at em. There’s your balance.
Very well said, I’m currently doing exactly this and waiting. The only people I game with are my son and wife because of the current climate. It just makes sense to wait sometimes.
As a New Zealander, so glad I can get back to playing tabletop games.
That's was one thing I ready missed when New Zealand was shut down, gaming with my mates.
Doesn't look like I'll be getting back to gaming any time soon. ... ....*angry grumbles* at least ill have time to paint then.
@@blueg6demon371 I painted 32 15mm tanks and around 70-80 15mm infantry when New Zealand was shut down. It was one of the positives I could take out of it. Enjoy your painting. :-)
@@michailwoolf64 Thanks, glad ya'll are safe down that way.
How did you kiwi's beat the wuhan flu? You didn't shut down your borders did you?
I just use the old miniatures with new rules. Apart from slight visual changes the figures are still the same but just newer. You don't have to get rid of the old ones and buy the new. I veiw the new editions as just like patch for a video game. Just fixing problems editing bits here and there. But if something is older you can just, well use it. At the end of the day, you want to have fun. Fun is the reason most people play.
Too many rules changes bogs the game down and makes it less fun.
There are loads of great games with rules that don't change basically at all. Look at Gaslands, for example.
Battletech rules have changed vary little and the minis boards and book from 30 years ago still work today
I'll be honest when they announced with the start of 8th that they were going to keep updating 40k with FAQs and General's Handbook etc I was quite excited after years of armies stuck with 4/5 year old books.
However the reality is that as someone who doesn't play regularly I end up having to relearn rules everytime I play and I used General's Handbook once or twice before they need replacing. This in turn has led me to playing Bolt Action, Gaslands etc that see less regular updates.
This video is SPOT ON... I have gotten deep into Kill Team...and love it.... I gave up on keeping up with 40K when 6th turned to 7th then to 8th all so fast we couldn't keep up with getting all the books fast enough...
We have 5 armies.... for now, if my son and I get into playing bigger than Kill Team games, we will house rule some 4th edition-ish Combat Patrol kind of thing, and play 500 or 750, or even1500 points of our armies, on my 3x4ft game table...with our 6th/7th edition codex books... etc...
Some day, we MIGHT get into 9th edition, or 10th, or whatever.... but not until GW has an edition out, as well as all 5 or 6 codex books we would buy...and all before the end of the edition... I got fed up with GW when I bought a codex that just came out, and a few months later the edition changed... this caused a few year vacation from GW wargames, and a while of only painting and collecting....and reading the novels....
Kill Team sucked me back in.... but I really love Kill Team and can get a LOT of great enjoyment from it regardless of what GW does in the future with KT... I can make 4 more teams, or 6...without buying ANY more books. ...if they make a new version, update, expansion.... I MAY choose to get that, but I could also just play exactly what I already have now, for a couple decades.... and still build some more teams, a box of Deathwatch or some Tau or Necrons or more marines to make other chapters, or.... those models will still exist, and that is all I need...
I really enjoy your channel, thanks for the videos!
Well said, Uncle Atom. Thanks for another insightful video. I have definitely noticed an uptick in concern regarding the new 9th edition rule set (online, in my flgs, etc.) and I don’t really understand why. As you say, if you like the previous version(s), and your not a competitive player, by all mean keep playing the version you prefer. The only “issue” that I’ve come across is that the army list builder I use (Battle Scribe) automatically updates to the latest rule set. Now my army lists that I set up for 8th edition aren’t valid for 9th. However, this really isn’t a huge deal as I have a few option/work arounds, such as email my 8th edition list to myself, ignore the errors that Battle Scribe throws, go old skool and use a pencil and paper to actually write out my army list, etc. Granted physically writing a list out isn’t all that appealing or convenient, but you get the idea. The point is, it’s your/our hobby. Hobby your own way. The way you enjoy it. That is, after all, the whole point. Thanks again, Uncle Atom. You are the man!
Thanks for putting this up, a lot of us non-neurotypical types enjoy wargaming and some of us have more trouble than other, I think its very kind and compassionate for you to validate this.
Even if you want to play casually, you're going to have a much easier time finding a group if you're playing the current edition.
While I appreciate the mitigation of the problem in this argument, I'm not entirely convinced I have to say. The "sales cycle" of creating new content and making old content redundant in order to force "churn" is something that seems to be intrinsic in proprietary IP systems, and it's what pushed me out of GW games and into Historicals. At a certain point you can say "this army is finished forever and I dont need to buy anything else" when the peramaters are defined by history. There's no Primaris version of a Napoleonic army that pushes you to buy a lot of extra stuff to stay competitive. A dark ages guy with a spear and shield will be just fine for the rest of your life even if you use him in 6 different rulesets. Even with edition changes I've never had an army nerfed, Ive maybe had to buy a new rulebook, nothing like the forced churn for it's own sake to drive sales like I saw in sci-fi and Fantasy games.
But I think therein lies an issue with some 40k fans - I saw someone complaining that new releases are a slap in the face to 'long term collectors' and I've encountered these people before. Someone that's had the same 2000 point Space Marine army for over a decade is now complaining they feel compelled to buy Primaris. As this video says, you don't have to move to a new edition. But if you want to have your army list supported, to be able to go into stores and play games, it's a game of give and take. People want their aspect of the hobby to be supported without supporting the company
Or you try Kings of War or Deadzone :)
Jael Edwards , and yet Battlefront has managed to change the most competitive systems in FoW quite drastically over the last three volumes and also kept a lot of systems out of the latest version for years. So, it can be manipulated until your players leave in disgust at least.
Also, historicals are now seeing lots of scale changing to odd scales (looking at you Warlord!) to add to the traditional enemy - the dreaded rebasing.
Do not have a problem with rules changes, but when they change models and army comp with the intent of forcing you to buy new models heck with them. Hence the newer interest in historical's, a Tiger 1 is the same in 1/56 scale reguardless of the rules set, so you never need to buy a new one. A squad of German DAK troops are not going to change much either. But when games change things just to sell models and make older versions of the same figs unusable "because you need the new models" then I will play something else.
As for third ed 40K...sure, still have my rules, wargear cards, tactic cards, and Squat army. But what annoys me most is the Fan Boys who will only play the newest supported game. Still have BFG, Warmaster, Necromunda, and Mordheim armies but good luck trying to find players.
Agreed. As a business model they seem to think this track of getting the old faithfuls to spend more is best. But what they don't realize is that there are a lot of potential players who look at all this and turn away. They should create ways to attract new players.
5:24 Something I love about Minecraft Java Edition is that you can play whichever version of the game you like, even the alpha and beta versions.
Craig X what? I really don’t understand what you are getting at, and honestly, you are completely wrong. The newest version of minecraft is great anyway. Most servers use 1.8.9, though.
That quite nice but we still dont know what happened to this Fez
The Fez was my favorite miniature he owned
#whereisthefez
it got fezzed out? :D
We need Uncle Atom to ahem... _con-fez_ what happened!
He finally got a haircut
I mean it's true we don't have to get all the new books, we don't have to change editions, we don't have to get the new models and, we don't even have to play the game but at the same time GW doesn't have to nickel and dime us with codexs and apps that just open Google docs. It just sometimes feels like you're financially penalized for being part of the change and part of the Hobby.
The increased prices of both old products that haven't change for years and new products is so high it's not only outrunning inflation it's outrunning the raises in a person's income which on average has not kept up well with inflation.
I love Warhammer 40k and what GW are doing with game. They are talking with use and is not just some whole in the wall nerdy gross thing anymore. We are becoming more socially acceptable. The company has come a long way and I don't even mind most of changes. But I can't forget the egregious price hikes from FW and the sting of price increases and the high MSRP price of things like the new fortification for the space marines that's running $199. They do that at the same time they make some amazing things like the Indomitus box set which at the same $199 price tag is a great deal I just wish that set was the rule and not the exception to it.
I see alot of people who cover games workshop seem to shy away from saying anything negative about the price hikes. Some even try to justify it as completely acceptable and it concerns me as it means they either don't want to say anything and upset GW or like many others seem to have developed Stockholm syndrome on the matter.
I get it they are company, they need money but must they be so hungry and so greedy? We never hear about a price decrease on a old kit that's basically paid for it's mould, RnD, marketing and everything else that is used to justify the high price in the first place getting a decrease.
Just my roll of pennies.
While I'm very much not the doomsaying caterwauler that some GW fans are, change with GW when it comes to models can be an extremely mixed bag.
Don't want to spend 80 euro on a set of Sisters of Battle? Pay 45 euro(the same cost as primaris while costing just over half the in-game points) instead.
Don't want to play the smol space marines? Pay hand over fist for the new types with none of the weapon options that made tactical squads interesting and spend as much money as you would have on a single old command squad for a single Apothecary.
That's not even getting into how ruleswise Space Marine players have now gone through four different books in less than that many years for their rules sets, and that's not even including Psychic Awakening and the Chapter Supplements.
Sure, change can be good. I think people are justified in being angry about most of the recent changes GW has been making though. It bites.
There are 46 Primaris units, and 52 "smol" marine units. 🤔
There are 46 Primaris units and 52 smol marine units.
So...who's forcing people to buy any of the new products? Because if anyone is being forced to buy something, that's a problem. But that isn't happening, is it? Instead, there are a bunch of weak-willed babies who can't stand the idea of having to accept responsibility for their decision to buy the newest versions / editions of 40k. It's much easier for them to whine about GW releasing new product. If someone doesn't like the idea of spending hundreds of pounds/euros/dollars on the latest and greatest miniatures and rules, they're perfectly welcome to keep their money. It's astounding to me that so many people are so adamant about not accepting responsibility for their own actions. It's _obviously_ GW's fault that someone bought a shitload of 9th edition minis rather than the person spending the money...
adam harp The pretty obvious answer here is that they’re phasing out some things while others are required to keep up to date(codices). Not buying stuff sometimes isn’t an option while in others buying into an army is made entirely non feasible by changes, so writing off bad product scheduling or pricing isn’t at all applicable here.
@@DergonBaals Nope. You are not obligated to buy new marines if you want to keep playing with your shorties. If GW stops producing tac marine squads, the ones you already own won't somehow disappear. If they release seven new Space Marine Codices in the next six months, the ones you have on your shelf won't suddenly be blank.
Not buying things is _always_ an option. People can continue playing 8th edition for the next 30 years, if they choose. GW moving into 24th edition in 30 years will have absolutely no bearing on people who want to keep playing 8th. People can even introduce new players to the older editions and use new models as "counts as X." Absolutely nothing GW does can prevent anyone doing exactly that.
So, in the end, it really does just come down to people whining about not being able to exercise self-control. That's not GW's fault.
First off, let me say that I am glad that you are adapting well, after having seen some of these stressed out videos from earlier in the year. This actually was really good to see because my friend has some thing I call FOMO-fear of missing out- and it really hurts him when he gets talking about any of the tabletop game, for more gaming to any RPG you have to have a supplement for.
thanks for the advice Atom! i was thinking of buying the new rules yesterday too! haha, im really glad i didnt now though! this will give me a chance to maybe buy into a new army before i actually start thinking about a new book. My shop doesnt even have any tables open right now so i just need to focus on making my models look battle ready!
As usual... excellent points all around. This is the kind of episode I appreciate the most...grounded, insightful and fair. 👍👍
Yaye! Shout out to New Zealand ! That got my attention. Gaming stores and clubs are back here. :-)
It is true the hobby is a lot of fun in all the stages, from drooling over new releases all the way to the ever evolving fluff and subsequent rule changes. I'm old hammer and been into it since the eighties. So much has changed, and for awhile I was sure all the new computer games would have the next generation of players...Instead it's held up and the depth of variety and options have become truly wonderful. Also the art made with gaming for inspiration has become just awesome.
I agree that rule modifications should be open to any style, outside of tournaments it's the wild west.
Gotta say, after a good few games, 9th edition is a better game than 8th, so I'm happy to get the new bits and bobs as and when I want. I like reading the books and things, so I'll get them as and when I want as well. It's very rare that the sky is actually falling, and a new edition of a tabletop game is definitely not one of those times.
I'm currently in the opposite side of the spectrum lol. Playing 3rd edition that's very campaign/narrative centric. Having a blast with the past really.
Wait until they start releasing supplements and additional rules that aren't in the codexes and the rulebook. I'm calling it.
It's all well and good to say "If you want, just play an older edition" - that's great if you have a regular gaming group.
But even if you're not a competitive player, pick up games are going to be even harder to find with that philosophy.
You might think that's not as common as people say - but that's because you've obviously got a group of players that you regularly play with.
Given the way that modern work schedules and other obligations are, there are a lot of us who only get a chance to play rarely and not always among the same group of people.
Sure, there are people who still play Third - but I'll bet they can't walk into a shop on any given day and get a pickup game with anyone.
So yes, we're more or less stuck with the latest edition, and it comes off as kind of a pat answer to dismiss that - and typically comes from people who are fortunate to have a regular gaming group.
Yeah this is me - I DON'T have a regular gaming group of gaming buddies, and all of my games are exclusively played at the friendly local game store. That basically means that at some point, I'll *have* to upgrade to the new 9e books because I don't have a choice in the matter. Granted, we're in the middle of a pandemic, and I've already made the choice to not purchase anything 9th edition at this time... but eventually I'll have to suck it up and do it anyways.
You completely ignored the first half of the video. The summary version is: Change will always happen, and on some level you have to learn to accept that, BUT if you have a group of players who all like an old edition then there's always the option to just keep playing that instead.
Well said.
needed to be said! lots of people i know complaining about change when it doesn't matter nearly as much as other hobbies
It's the fact they got to spend more money again when 8th haven't long come out. What's next ? 10th next year ?
@@liamhgd581 With a new addition round the corner, best to not buy anything 8th.
@@silver4831 IV give the hobby up. I'm fed up of games workshop money grabbing attitude. And only really paying any attention to primaris
It's a shame they done so much hard work the get the business back in order
@@silver4831 also that's besides the point. All the new codex's ppl will need to buy. The new rules books etc it's getting beyond a joke with gw now
@@liamhgd581 I feel your pain. This game is too cool and they keep changing it and costs more coin. It sucks, and they've been doing it for years. I tried to get out, I was gone for 5th , 6th and 7th. I got back in for 8th, and it's gone again. So I only game with my friends anymore. GW only supplies the plastic, we don't need their ever-changing rules.
In my experience, Games Workshop offer us a few consumer friendly options.
There's full blown 2000 point W40K BUT, there's cheaper and easier entries:
-Kill Team W40K for less than £50. A box of models is all that's needed.
- W40K 500 point Combat Patrol for 9th ed for about £75 or £100 with the corebook. PERFECT MIDDLE GROUND between Skirmish and 2000 point W40K
-Both these options are easy on time, wallet and space.
Models that last for decades like old Space Marines. The rulebooks always acknowledge the older models. Your models should never be entirely replaced, simply balanced by chapter approved, which allows GW to make money whilst allowing you to keep your models.
Whilst I understand the annoyance around the rule books required and their pricing, like Uncle said, if you don't play competitive, you really dont have to invest. You can play with friends and family with old editions
If you do, just thinking of the yearly chapter approved as recurring yearly fee, to keep the hobby alive and for you to keep using your models. As your models a one off cost, and if revenue was only generated through one off payments, GW wouldn't be as big as it is, as your models last ages (a good thing)
It would be nice for GW to use a live online document, that updates, so just one book. But then I don't know how feasible that is for them to run financially. Books might be their main and only consistent revenue stream.
That said Star Wars Legion has one rulebook, same with X Wing, and they have a free app too.
But even X Wing came with version 2.0 where you had to buy replacement dials for several ships and other physical items were changed or newly introduced as well. Probably only a matter if time until Legion has that happen as well, unless it dies out.
@@pvzandbeek Exactly. And that's fine! All you need were conversion kits but you get to keep your models! Isn't that cool? For your wargame to be balanced, refreshed or rebooted but your collection remains? Yet people where complaining SO much. X Wing needed a 2nd edition due to how bloated and power creepy it got. Love Star Wars Legion! X Wing is great too, but I prefer Legion.
It’s worth remembering that if things never evolved we’d still be playing Rogue Trader.
"Ah those were the days"
And what a fine game it was too.
I wasn’t saying it was a bad game, just that we wouldn’t have the tabletop game we have now if they’d just stuck with RT. Now you can play either!
And I still prefer Space Crusade compared with everything released for 40k afterwards. And I wasn't born when it was released ^^'
The problem I have with the GW changes is that back in 1993, I purchased the Space Marine box set that contained plastic sprues that would eventually be known as the Mark VI
Corvus Pattern armour. When ever someone saw the missile launchers, they would observe, “so you’ve been playing for a while.”
When the 32mm scale came out, the size difference was not that significant, and I used the two sizes together. Now we have the Primarus Marines, and it appears that they are the
replacement for the 32mm marines. When that happens, I won’t be able to use the old figures. Just like when they revamped the orks in the late 1990s.
I have been playing “Battletech” since it was “Battledriods.” New mechs keep coming out, but the mech figures I purchased back in the late ‘80s are as playable now, as they were back then. This is true for Ogre/GEV, and just about every other game out there. I have no problems with the system changing, It is just I can’t keep buying more figures.
I think one reason people get irritated with new editions, especially for AOS and 40k, is that we love to list build and theorize about what army would work best. We enjoy working out the puzzle of the perfect army. I suspect for many people the challenge of list building is nearly 50% of the fun. Thus a new edition suddenly makes it impossible to engage with the hobby until the new rules are purchased and their ramifications understood, creating that sense of "I have to purchase this and spend more money than I really want to". I use to play the list building route and feel like a recovering addict every time a new addition comes out. Lately, for recovery, I have instead been focusing on games that don't lean heavily on list building (Frostgrave and Warcry for example). I like some list building, but I want it to be maybe about 10% of the game. When I do engage in GW's big games, I try and focus on purchasing only models that look cool to me, take my time painting them, and build up a story around the army. In this manner, I don't need to worry about whether or not I can "compete". My joy in the game should come out of seeing the narrative experience play out on the table, which is more sustainable on the wallet and my back log of unpainted miniatures. This means one army can give me repeated good experiences without needing to update it or tweak it after I suffer a catastrophic defeat. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts Uncle Atom, they helped me clarify mine.
List builders are the scourge of humanity.
@@barbarusbloodshed6347 I am beginning to agree. I tried collecting an AOS army only buying and purchasing units I wanted to paint or that looked cool. When I play the game, I just get massacred because I didn't buy the "right" models. More over, I just found the game annoying to play. So I'm heading over to historical games, or other war games that don't seem to have as much list building. However, I will always enjoy painting GW's models. Just not playing their games.
i think 3 years are to short,i liked the time between the 7th and the 8th edition
So 3 years? 7th came out 2014 and 8th 2017.
@@JakimAkim no,i played the 7th in 2012
I'm not really sure I 100% buy the "you can always play X old game" line. I guess the problem is that wargaming is an inherently multi player experience, and if you can't find someone else who wants to play an older version of the game with you, then it doesn't really matter that you still have those old rules. To use Uncle Atom's own video game example, it's a bit like trying to go play an old multiplayer video game - you could actually play it if you wanted to, but the servers are gone. There's no players. Wargaming isn't really different - you don't often see people running tournaments and events for 3rd edition 40K, because the majority of people want to play what's current.
I mean, it is what it is and a new edition has never been the end of the world - I just think that saying "technically you can still play older editions" is a bit of a cop out. Technically, you can - it doesn't mean anyone else will want to.
"There will be another edition of 40k after this one"
WHFB Players: "Don't bank on that" :(
Explain?
@@Bacxaber warhammer fantasy was killed off unceremoniously and replaced with Age of Sigmar, which a huge chunk of fantasy players felt was a slap in the face. The playerbase split 5 ways: Those who took up AoS, those who kept playing WHFB 8th, the guys playing fan made 9th age, some took up Kings of War, and the rest quit altogether.
Had an idea for a video! Without getting too lost in the specifics of point costs or things like that, could you do a video about turning one of your KillTeams into a Combat Patrol or some other 40k proper detachment? Would also be nice to know exactly what books and stuff to buy. Your vid on the full rulebook vs the supplements was great, but as a KT player I felt like I was missing a lot of context. Love the vids, keep up the great work!
I think I prefer Osprey's approach to wargames rules, consistently release a variety of self-contained rulebooks and let the authors create new content. I'm building up quite the collection of Osprey skirmish games covering a range of settings.
I've got my pre-order in for Frostgrave 2.0 :D
this guy gets it!
Great video.
When I was first getting into 40K with an old 3e book I found second hand, I went into a "game shop". This was around the start of 5e or 6e. The employee was very friendly and polite and informed me that I just could no longer play with my old book. I should buy the new $80 hardcover.
He was only doing his job but I couldn't help myself. I replied "really? I think my old book still works". Haha!
I eventually bought the box set with the softcover rules.
My friends and I now play with a Frankenstein creation of rules from 4 editions.
That’s me, 3rd edition. My semi annual 40k games with family members do it for 2 reasons. 1: that’s the edition we all started on So there is sentimental plug and B: that’s the edition we know best....maybe some modification but 3rd edition core rules
I must admit I am taking a wait and see approach to 9th edition. Given the current issues and my preferred army (Deathwatch), I have no reason to buy anything new until at least October.
look at mtg for example - you invest like 300$ on broken deck in standard (not talking about multiple thousands decks in other formats) Next year after rotation your deck is not legal anymore and you gotta get a new one if you wanna keep playing competitive
Good points there mate. You don't need to buy everything or all at once. For example I have only purchased the Kill Team rule book and there's a couple of reasons for that, I only play the game once or twice a month and between my mates we have every supplement between us.
My buddies and I have been playing Apocalypse 2019 instead of 40k. We love the 40k models, but not the rules since they are rather anachronistic these days. We come from other miniatures games that use more modern rules systems in a skirmish style with alternating unit activations, like Star Wars Legion, Song of Ice and Fire, etc. Since Apocalypse 2019 uses 40k models and actually has alternating detachment activations, we have been playing that. But now with 9th edition 40k and it's improved rules set, and improved Narrative Crusade rules, we are reconsidering our use of the main 40k rules. However, we have one major tweak that we are implementing to the 40k rules: Alternating activations, none of this my whole side goes, then your whole side gibberish. Goes like this: Shared Command Phase. Then first player picks a unit and does it's Move, Psychic, Shooting, Charge and Fight phases. First player marks that unit as activated. Then second player picks a unit and does its Move, Psychic, Shooting, Charge and Fight phases. Second player marks that unit as activated. First player picks another unit to activate, back and forth, so on and so on until all units by both players have had a chance to activate. Then shared Morale Phase at the end of the round. Brings it into alignment with Apocalypse 2019, and other skirmish style games with more modern rules sets. We have been having a lot of fun with 40k this way, and no plans to stop.
My main complaint with the launch of 9th is that the last Space Marine Codex came out last year.... it’s a little bit of a feel bad to have to update 12 months later
considering GW knew about the new units when they released the SM codex, it feels more scummy.
krakken trace scummy is the word
Excellent video. The only thing I am a bit confused is, why GW needs to update the rules editions so often? Let's compare to other tabletop giant, Dungeons & Dragons. They are owned by Hasbro (not a small company). But when 5th edition came out in 2014, they said it will be at least 10 years, until 2024 before the 6th edition comes out. And if you look at the sales figures of the 5e, it might take even longer. So if Hasbro can do a 10 year plan on edition, why GW needs to update things so often?
I actually preordered the Chapter Approved and then the day of the release with the announcement of the marine codex being in October, returned it since I wasn't likely going to be getting any games in the next two months.
Back when I read Warseer forums a lot, one user (Yabbadabba) was quite outspoken about this idea. You own the rules. You can change anything you want, and fix the game for yourself.
Really, there is nothing to fear if you're playing with friends. Its trying to get games together at FLGS that is the issue, and where the edition treadmill presents a problem.
Even so, can you and opponents agree on what version to use
Excellent message that people need to hear. There’s two concepts that if you understand them it will make your life much easier.
1. Normal is fluid
2. Stillness is death
As someone who still plays older editions of games I appreciate this message. However older games are not without their issues, one big hurdle is the limited player pool available, as a good percentage of gamers will adopt the new editions.
Change isn't always done to improve, but rather to promote sales. I think GW are quite guilty of this.
I had to stop playing 40k because of job situation at the end of 6th edition. I'm coming back for 9th edition but honestly so much has changed it doesn't even feel like the same game. Strategems? Warlords? Where are my vehicle front/side/rear armor tables? Where's my vehicle wargear? What is Power Level? Vehicles have wounds now?? Degrading stat lines?! Each army has mini sub faction rules?? I don't even want to talk about the laughably bad game I had vs ultra marines. It was the least fun I've ever had gaming.
I like the new objective-based style of play but having to unlearn deeply engrained mechanics and relearn stuff that didn't exist back then makes me feel old and disappointed. There's so much new complexity I can't remember it all. Back in my day if you wanted this much complexity you played Warhammer Fantasy. Oh wait. That doesn't exist anymore. :(
So yes, change is inevitable and fine. Some of us just can't keep up.
Thank you for letting me rant/cry a little bit.
Nice, mature and reasoned response to change. Well done. Yes it happens, but yes you can still play 2nd edition if thats what you and your friends want.
Getting back in the hobby from scratch, with nothing to start with, I'm not worried about my old stuff being outdated or whatnot. And yeah, we'll toss out that caveat that "Indomitus isn't a starter set", but hey, it had the full rulebook and minis, so good enough.
But, even aside from the lack of defining "Angels of Death" rather than every marine refering to the codex, it seems off to have to wait until October for the Codex. Likewise, Power Levels are fine, but having the Chapter Approved (for points) as a separate buy at launch is also a little odd. They should have (imo) at least announced or discussed the actual Starter Sets before Indomitus presale, to let folks know when/what would be coming. It's just an odd launch of a new edition of a game for me.
Great points as always.
For me as I've gotten more 'into' Wargames I've become less worried about changing ruleset; the last edition of 40k I have the 'core' rules could be summarised on 7 pages only... and being fair I could happily continue playing 3rd Ed (change doesn't always bring betterment). That said I'm open to seeing what the new ruleset is. I do think fear of financial cost plays a part, GW stuff isn't cheap, and reletively I think it used to be much more affordable (codexes £8-10), but as you say, you can wait and choose whether or not you buy in.
My biggest gripe about ninth edition is that here it’s almost a week after it’s launch, and the GW US store still hasn’t shipped the new rule book, the Chapter Approved, and a couple other items that I preordered two weeks before launch. GW doesn’t have an active phone line, and their email queue is apparently 10 days long. So maybe in a week or so, I’ll get an email from them about why they’re sitting on my preorder.
Still playing 8th ed WHFB, hoping for some variety from when ForgeWorld releases their Old World Wars... ...love the old game, but when there’s only 4 of you at the FLGS still playing the OOP game variety is good.
You don’t have to worry about change in 40K. When you walk into a GW store with $100, there won’t be any change.
Rules wise, I'm totally fine with things being refreshed every few years. GW is a business, and it makes sense from a financial perspective.
What I do have a small issue with is the points changes; I bought pretty much an entire 2000 pointa worth of Orks this year during the lock down, and painted about 60% of them by the time the new points costs were released, and about half of the models that I already painted have been priced out of my army (lots of grots, stormboyz, big mek with shock attack gun and grot tanks from forgeworld), and if I had any inkling that the points were going to change so drastically, I would not have even bought these models to begin with, not to mention spending the time to assemble and paint them.
Great video. My fear of spending a lot of money and time on models and having everything change and screw up my army has continued to hinder my enjoyment. With the new edition of 40k my philosophy is going to be to collect and paint what I like and have everything to change up my lists and stuff.
I feel that's always going to be the way to go. The most vocal complainers tend to be the ones that have sunk money into the most competitive army, not one they genuinely like
You're always best off buying and painting what you like. Worrying about the bleeding edge of the meta is for people who specifically enjoy that, or have a huge collection and can always dig into it and pull out a list of stuff that just became good again. When you're still building up your collection you'll find that just completing projects you enjoy actually makes you happy, rather than endlessly chasing changes to the rules and being salty when whatever you're working on isn't quite as good anymore by the time you're ready to play with it.
In my time I've seen quite a few Edition Wars, some never end like people will still get into heated arguments over which version of D&D is best or they should play. While every thing Atom said is true, it's also true that with 40k, whatever is tournament standard informs and trickles down into almost all levels of play. Once you get outside of your own home table, that is the standard level of rules most people will expect you to play by, even if its a "just for fun" game. Even in a "just for fun" match, the prize is often bragging rights and most people even if they never go to a tournament want to feel like they could compete at that level. So even if its just a matter of perception and public opinion, people will feel like you have to play up to that standard to feel validated. Most of the people who played 40k like a RPG and considered a game of it a mutual story-telling event have moved on as the competitive nature of the game has been more and more emphasized.
As always high quality content, thanks!!
I personally stopped playing 40K about 10 years ago due to the fact it was taking 6 hours to play a game, I sold everything bar a few interesting figures and moved to other systems. Now they brought out killteam and streamlined the games and made them more scalable it's brought me back to 40K and I'm having a blast. It does get a bit annoying when you have say three version of a game in 3 years, like what happened with Dust Tactics with the switch over to FFG, which is why I stopped playing Dust.
Very good vid and as an older gamer I am starting to realise that the new edition isn’t necessary. Next to me is my 8th Edition fantasy and they still play fine. I started to realise this as new editions I found I wasn’t a fan of, like AoS, like 3rd Edition Warmachine. Jury is still out on the latest edition of Flames of War. As I’m getting older my deposable income can’t keep up either. This may sound ageist, but is it a young person thing? The need to have the latest thing. Maybe I’m wrong.
I don't think it's ageist at all. Younger people in general are objectively more likely to believe the newest thing is the best thing. It even makes sense, considering the diminished durability of so many things as time goes on. How many times do we look at something made in the 1950s that's still functioning as well now as when it was new, while a similar product made in the past 10 years is either obsolete or nonfunctional? Engineered obsolescence is very much a thing, and younger people have very little actual experience with anything that isn't engineered to be replaced in 5-10 years, if that long. Also, as we get older, we realize that many of the things were thought were so incredibly important when we were younger just don't matter that much. I've been playing tabletop games since the late 1980s. I have friends who still play 2nd edition 40k and AD&D, and I still sometimes join in.
I'm in the same boat. When we first got into this stuff, we got the current edition at the time and learned it, because why start out with an expired version? For the older generation back then it was "new fangled" but now we are old and miss the stuff we started out with. It's not ageist. It's just what getting old means.
will we start getting changes to make the factions cooler and have funky rules or are we just gonna continue to where all factions have a chapter master, lietutenant, and identical unit functions? When will ork players be able to turn their enemies into squigs again?
"If something stops to change, its already dead" - fancy quote I forgot the origin of
Thing that tics me off the most (happened with Flames of War) is just as soon as you get the last army book and campaign book they rewrite the rules and change point values so you HAVE to get the next incarnation of all of them over the course of the next few years. Then they do it again and again. If I spend all that time and money getting the rules and supplements, at least give us a few years to use em before rewrites. Or better yet, stop screwing with the point values so we can use them with the new rules sets.
That's why my main wargames are stuff from Firelock Games. As Mike Tuñez said: wrote good, well-balanced rules and all you need to do is to keep up little, flexible updates like FAQ. And it works really, like REALLY well with their Blood and Plunder.
I love Warhammer, I just cannot follow all news from GW with my wallet. Next game in my TOP3 (with Blood and Plunder on top like I said before) is ith edition of warhammer fantasy battle and good old Mordheim. I'm waiting for new-old world but I have hope that they will not keep "update" it with every 12 months!
You are right about the freedom we have to play with things in regards to this hobby, and it goes beyond staying with one company. I'm working on a stats swap for 40k figures to use them with the Warzone Resurrection 2nd ed rules.
@Craig X I wouldn't, that would be rude. A shop that is trying to sell 40k doesn't need someone rocking up with a different rule set confusing things. But shops aren't the only place to play these games. There are plenty of clubs that don't mind what rule set you're using, as long as you are playing your weekly subs. And if you have a table at home you can experiment and chop and change to your hearts content.
I tend to disagree on this topic. If you live in a small city and the community gets the new editions, you "need" to keep up even if you don't play as competitve gamer. Rulebooks are too expensive, even the digital editions. The worst thing about this is "the new is always better" rule to sell new models, like in Necromunda when GW launched Enforcers and then Corpse Grinders. Think about the Primaris in 40K. Every new team is way OP than the olders. In fantasy happened several times for different types of units: chivalry was good in some edition and then suddenly was rubbish, you needed to get some warmachines or something different, I bet it's the same in AoS and 40K.
Can't you house rule it? Works for plenty of people.
@@s2korpionic You can houserule everything in fact, but like I said, in a small city if 8 ppl want to upgrade and only 2 want to houserule, at the end everyone "needs" to upgrade.
@@Kelembor this is truth, i live in a vary underpopulated sate (Vermont) and we have exactly one store in the state that supports 40k and most people there fallow the new editions. if i want to get any games in there that mean i usually have to play the most recent edition.
"Just calm down a little bit" is a great bit of general advice for life as a whole, and not just wargaming. Great video, Atom. It's like D&D (or literally any hobby game with rules that has multiple iterations) - lots of people still play previous editions. If a group likes 2nd edition, they don't have to play 5e. Same with GW games.
I think in tabletop in my experience the biggest change thats hardest to deal with will always be an aesthetic one. maybe because rules are not ever truly set in stone but the art is forever i guess? The most obvious example i can think of lately was Nightvault shifting to Beastgrave and dropping all of its aesthetic and colours for this honestly kind of foul '90's soda orange' colour on everything while shifting from things like ghosts and skaven to beastmen and ghouls. Don't get me wrong i have horrible taste so all the Beastgrave warbands were day one buys for me, but not for anyone else i know that played Underworlds. The 'Rona didn't help but even before it the launch of season 3 was a hard 'meh' and i honestly think that the biggest issue was the hard change to aesthetic and art that was so different to Shadespire and Nightvault.
Thank god I play Tyranids! We don't have to worry about change or new models!
I'm kind of having a break year from the hobby due to various personal things but I do feel like 9th edition was kind of rushed: They hadn't finished publishing the Psychic Awakening book line before announcing and beginning play testing on a new edition. I was excited to buy the faction book for my army once things relaxed for me in a couple months but now it's "expired". Obviously, 8th still exists in rulebooks but it will be harder to find opponents because it's a co-operative game and generally playing with people you don't already know well predicates playing with the current rules.
I recognize that some people will complain about a new edition even if it comes out ten years later, for free and only with vital changes. Still, the change to 9th edition feels very sudden and like it puts a lot of very recently bought material immediately under the bus. People have to step back and spend the money and take the time to learn new rules...
I sort of think that this approach burns people out on the hobby and I am worried that this may happen with me as well, so I do wish that you had taken a slightly more empathetic approach than "Change is scary and some people don't like it just because". I think there's a reasonable position that Warhammer is bringing supplements that are essentially game changing and required to compete in tournament and even GW storeplay at such a rapid pace that it's easy to fall off the wagon and feel left behind if you don't have the time or money to constantly be racing to the next edition. I don't play other wargames but I feel like RPGs have a much more balanced approach to this: Editions can last for a decade with constant updates that focus on non-required optional material (In wargaming, this could be stuff like missions, terrain, maybe even different game styles and army comps that players can agree to)...
Change is not a constant because the Rate of Change is also a variable. Welcome to Calculus 101.
The thing I've always hated is warhammer 40k is not a cheap hobby and some times it takes you years to save up and paint an army just to have a new edition of the game come out and your whole army is now worthless because they changed the way the armies are structured / in my case just neglected to add the chaos legion I was playing as that had there own set of special rules.... Now I don't even play the game and I just paint models every now and then and make terrain for friends who do play... Games workshop killed the gaming part of warhammer for me and now all I have left is painting.
I left out I was playing 4th edition tournaments / playing games at stores as Chaos Iron warriors. When 5th edition came out they where no longer in the chaos codex and where reduced to being a regular chaos undivided legion with no special rules.
Just started painting, the time it takes for me to paint a model i might aswell wait until the 10th edition until i start learning how to play this game lmao.
I have a tournament coming up in like 3 weeks. I have been preparing for it for a long time already, playing with a bud. Trying to get all my stuff painted and ready
To me that's part of the fun of the hobby... then again I don't buy everything, just the stuff I like. But I like the storyline moving forward, the influx of new players and everyone starting on the same page again for a few months.
I've only just gotten into WH40K and AOS this year as a painting hobby. My first actual game I'm trying to learn is Warcry. I'm wondering how editions go as far as that is concerned as it's my understanding that Warcry is relatively new.
My biggest gripe is building a whole army and and then having it completely ruined by a new edition or codex. Sometime a rule slightly changes, and you have to completely re-model your army to acommodate. Snapping off limbs and changing weapons isnt fun.
Tabletop games fill an interesting niche in that their products are not perishable. If you like wood-working, you always need to buy materials to work with. If you cook, you're always at the store buying stuff. With TT games, particularly models, once you have an army done the way you want it, you're DONE. The only way to keep the money flowing is to get new players (not always easy), convince the current players to invest in a new army (can be expensive), or sell new stuff. The issue with 'sell new stuff' is that your current players have a significant investment in time and money in their current stuff and that's a BIG reason to be worried about change.
The TT gaming industry is not readily sustainable as an industry.
Entropy is a constant, all systems if left alone tend towards chaos. Would love to see uncle atom playing kings of war.
Molds also break down, so new sculpts of old models are sometimes necessary. Sometimes the new sculpts are because the old ones are outdated, and cooler new sculpts can be made. And yes, sometimes it's just for cash.
Well, my "library" has main rules and codex/army books for WHF since 6th edition and 40K since 2nd edition. This is - apart from the bibliophilia and collector thing - extremely relaxing when it comes to gaming. I have the CHOICE. It's great!
Great information for new comers like me, Started collecting and playing AOS and 40k This year and didn't bother buying the new general hands book 2020 nor the other random books for 40k because I mainly play with friends or family. can save a lot of money and also it isnt actually required as long as both parties agree to not use those new books.
While it's always good to see improvements, my biggest gripe with updates is having multiple models made illegal due to arbitrary rule changes. I have an unhealthy pile of heavily converted minis that are little better than spiky paperweights. This was all a result of constantly streamlining the rules and removing choice in options.
The thing is that GW never really fixes anything with new editions, it's just a reboot to sell more books, it's quite evident they don't even playtest their stuff anymore.
Look at the amount of books, FAQs etc people had to have at the end of 8th edition 40k just to play the game, and 8th was supposed to be the edition that would get rid of that problem.
9th hasn't been out for more than a few weeks and it's already got it's first FAQs, is full of errors and imbalanced units/rules.
Some people say "But it's because GW intends for the rules to be played with the new codexes", of which the first one drops in october, following the classic GW release rate the last faction in the game to get their 9th edition codex will get it right before 10th edition.
I would actually embrace change in 40k but the problem is the opposite, GW keeps making the same dipshit moves edition after edition and everything stays the same.
I’m super excited 9th is here but I always get worried my very minimal mode range won’t be good anymore.
Have been in the game long enough to know that new editions will come... also to know that an entire reset of the game will happen (reference to AoS), so adapting to change is the easier way to continue gaming and playing with others (when is safe).
Locally with friends we to a beerhammer or garagehammer just for fun and send most of the rules to the trash can and end up using house rules to make it fun for everybody...
IMO, there’s a LOT of potential benefits and value to keeping up with the most recent versions, and if I hear a gamer say he “has to get the new...” or similar, I know what he means is not that because it’s the law. It’s because that player does not want to miss out on all the benefits and value of being on the same version as the big community. FOMO is a thing.
Furthermore, and this is just one old fart’s opinion, gamers buy into many of these games for all that value. Without that value, the price would not be worth it to many players (this varies by game to me). So when a company makes bad changes, they are quite possibly taking away value that a player has already paid for.
Gamers may always grumble, but often it’s completely predictable because it’s so often justified.
Why would someone find this opinion racist?
people complained when GW were making 1 codex in 5 years. Now people complain that they need to buy new stuff to play. Nobody is forcing players to play new edition - they still can play whatever edition they want. there is so many other stuff to enjoy in GW games - painting minis, playing box games, reading books, playing video games. I personally think it amazing thing what Ge do recently.
I have never been in a deeper hobby hole in my life. How wrong I was thinking this pandemic would give me so much time to build and paint! That WAS the case for the first month or so. But now, 5 months later: my cat knocked a sec mech terrain piece off my shelf yesterday and it came apart and will need to be re-glued. It's still sitting there...
Maybe competitive play is kind of the problem.
Always is. Like with E sports killing video games.
@@silver4831 the perfect exemple on that is dawn of war 3
"Meta" gaming is the problem...
Looking for tips to improve is one thing...
Whole gaming communities running the same lists...that is a problem...
With that, then you see nerfs, and then people who were playing with something they liked, in the balance of their game, now have stuff thats useless...and drives them away...
Get out of here with your toxic generalist comments. The competitive community has done a lot more good for the game then bad, and most casual 40k hobbyists will never see, or fully understand that. You have no idea what you're talking about, and comments like yours just proliferate unnecessary echo chambers about people who enjoy the game differently then you. Scumbag.
@@hyozanman I hope your referring to op and not i...if so...then you are the problem. Instead of just spamming hate, how about asking why they feel that way. But of course, you're probably one of those little turds who can't have an original thought and thus take offense to simple phrases. And that, I have no pity for...go back to paying people for their work and abusing fellow gamers/hobbyists original ideas in your own echo chamber theybie
I dont mind change. I hate having to rebuy really expensive codexes to play. Two books to play Dark Angels? Screw that.
Nope, it's called 'designed obsolescence' and it is a deliberate ploy to keep pulling cash out of your wallet.
In my case, it convinced me to switch to historical wargaming.
"You dont need 9th ed codexes if you're not playing yet." No, that's not true. How do you know how to build and paint your kits in preparation of play if you dont have the datasheets and keywords? It's kinda hard to guess at how many special weapons a squad can have without that info.
Well i do built my army with some apps...
I don't mind, it makes up for a nice library :)
My Indomitus box arrived today so for this edition I support change entirely. If I was unable to have gotten the box, I would be vehemently opposed to any and all change. It's best to remain logical about these things.
I don’t mind the change it’s just the amount of books you have to buy whenever they update 40k. I’d rather spend the money on minis.
Totally aside - as a fellow Wisconsinite, I love that shirt!
My buddies and I played 40k 2nd Edition through 3rd and the start of 4th Edition before we stopped playing. We didn't want to spend money on the books (We were poor high school/college kids). I'd like to get back into the game... but I don't know when COVID will let anyone get together to game again.