There was a recent study that found that even 100 grams of protein per meal was still a big improvement over 40 grams. The protein synthesis is also spread over a longer time then. Btw: if 40 grams was the max, someone doing OMAD would see the same muscle improvements whether they eat 40 grams a day vs. 160 grams a day :p
An excellent study using traceable aminos acids. Unless the data is fabricated, the 20-25 gram maximum protein synthesis is officially debunked. (Btw, Menno’s evolutionary explanation is extremely unconvincing, an evolutionary story can just as well be given for the ability to synthesis protein over a 24h period or more)
@@juarezm.6737 Splitting it over 2 meals is probably a bit more effective for muscle building, but OMAD with 100 grams of protein is still better for protein synthesis than eating only 50 grams of protein OMAD. BTW, there seems to be a leucine threshold where eating at least around 30-35 grams of protein (with around 4 grams of leucine I think) in one meal stimulates synthesis way more than doing little protein snacks spread out over the day.
Another fantastic video. Based on the research you cited, I have been eating 3-4 servings of protein daily for the last 7 years. It's so much more sustainable and practical too.
The limitation here is using static numbers like "20g" "40g" without taking into account what percentage that number equals to the mass of the individual. A 130 lbs woman training a single muscle group and a lean and jacked 230 lbs male doing a full body session are going to have very different results here. It stands to reason the latter could utilize well upwards of 50g on a per-meal basis for muscle growth.
You say "it stands to reason", but it doesn't, what are you basing that claim on? The "limitation" you speak of is based on the science being done, whereas what you've said is simply a guess.
Not really. People are over-obsessing with numbers when it comes to protein-and are neglecting the rest (training, SFR, resting....). At the end of the day, it does not make a huge difference whether you are consuming 0,8/1,0/1,6 grams of protein per kg bodyweight. Unless you are a professional bodybuilder-but in that case you would not worry about this, and would just do what your coach will tell you.
It certainly makes sense that the more muscle you have, the more protein your body would need to repair it after use. It would be ridiculous if you could repair a skyscraper using the same amount of materials and labor needed to repair a garage.
@@SeuOu It might "make sense" but that doesn't make it true. The relative difference between lighter and heavier people is many orders of magnitude less than your example of a buildings. Furthermore, the relative difference between a lighter and heavier persons actual muscle mass, not just their bodyweight, is smaller still.
Great video! Does protein speed matter in this as well? I had thought the studies showing a 20g cap on MPS involved whey which is extremely fast absorbing. I would imagine a slower digesting protein wouldn't hit this cap?
Hello, can you please make a long winded video about the amino acid leucine for natural bodybuilders and answer a few questions that totally confuse me. How important is the protein but especially leucine content per meal, because almost everyone says that studies show that you need at least 2,5-3g of leucine per meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and to build muscle but 20g of protein don´t contain 2,5-3g of leucine!? how much from a protein source I have to eat per meal, how many grams, for example how much raw or cooked chicken, turkey, beef or dairy, and how much total protein per meal when 20g don´t contain 2,5-3g of leucine? What is the minimum amount of leucine to stimulate muscle protein synthesis? What if I don´t eat a meal with more than 2 grams of leucine. Does the leucine content or protein content per meal depend on bodyweight or can a 160 pound male and a 225 pound male both eat a minimum of 20g or protein and muscle protein synthesis will be triggered? What will happen when I don´t eat 2g of leucine per meal, for example just 3 whole eggs, can I still build muscle or will I hurt myself and let gains on the table. Thank you very much, I appreciate you and I value the content
The disagreement between the mechanistic knowledge of the anabolic cap versus the actual outcomes in studies is so confusing. If decreasing protein degradation contributes little to muscle growth, then why in at least one study in rats and that one study in Japanese humans was there such a small difference in muscle growth when having evenely distributed protein rather than unevenly distributed protein? Layne Norton basically says the same thing, that there is the anabolic cap of synthesis yet despite that it seems that in practice, having a single 150g protein meal nets you 80% of the results.
This video explains most of the reasons, I'd say, notably potential potentiation after fasting and potential MPB breakdown after higher protein intakes despite no more effect on MPS.
Great video as always. I'd like to see your actual meals per day (full day of eating and schedule) and if you/they count snacks as part of these meals. Because 200 g of protein in 3 meals can be challenging some days, so protein snacks in between make it much more feasible. Also some people don't consider their preworkout meals. They are always like "I only have 2 meals per day and I reached hypertrophy", but when they share a video of their meals per day the preworkout and the snacks add a lot :O.
You don’t need 200g protein a day. Almost every single natural lifter can make gains with 120-140g per day. Most people on less than that. This has been proven time and again.
@@stevethea5250 Apologies for going off topic. Its a reference to Hobbits in Lord of the Rings. They have lots of meals throughout the day. One of them is called "elevenzees".
Is this effect also seen when eating meals that have a combination of lipids, carbs and proteins? Wouldn't this delay digestion and absorption of protein to a degree where the muscle full effect doesn't take place or something like that?
Under the assumption of having no eating disorder or a professional need (stage competitions) for micromanaging single calories and timing meals, we have a constant stream of protein over the day. Simply because digestion outside of the whey world takes many hours. Your steak isn't digested in an hour, not even in 5. From my view there are too many people with psychological problems about the fear of having not enough protein for muscle gains than people who really have the need to optimize and control everything. What Menno said is realistic advice, 3 meals a day. I would add 1g per kg bodyweight at the bottom and 2g per kg at the top for protein. But because of the digestion factor not counted for each and every meal, but smoothed over the days. Why? Easier to track, people around you are less annoyed about your eating habits, more quality of life and less time consuming. Apart from this, using less optimal protein intake does not mean you don't build muscles at all. It only means it takes a bit longer to reach your limit, something 99% of all of us will never reach.
Isn't there a recent study showing muscle protein synthesis being raised for 12 hours after a 100g protein meal? Wouldn't that mean that the body slows digestion with larger protein feedings and while there's a cap on how much protein can be synthesized in the short term, the body compensates by slowing digestion to elevate protein synthesis for a more extended time? Is there evidence of a higher cap of protein synthesis post exercise meal leading to more hypertrophy vs a smaller elevation for an extended time? Thanks.
If anyones curious, I believe the paper you're referring to is: "The anabolic response to protein ingestion during recovery from exercise has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans" by Jorn Trommelen et. al.
If so, then that would only apply to the post-workout period right? they show plasma concentrations spiking higher, decreasing at the same 2h range (but decreasing less) then still still being present in small amounts (but higher than 25g) for the full 12h
One of the things I learned early on was spacing your meals is optimal but if you can only manage 2-3 large meals, as long as you reach your calorie/protein goals by the end of the day, you get 90% of the benefits, spacing it to 4-5 meals a day gives you the extra 10% so min maxing in a sense. Focus on the macros then if you can the micros, not the micros before the macros.
Menno, excellent vid/info Thanks. I'd hazzard a guess that the average person working out is (on average) eating about 3 meals per day with at least 30 to 40 grams per meal
Personally, I do 4x40 + 1x20 to maintain an intake of 1g per cm in height. I do weigh around 185lb also, so the 1g per lb of bodyweight standard is also covered. I don't think I'm getting any sort of abnormal gains from doing this just for context, but I having a good understanding of my macros definitely allowed me to get better definition quicker as somebody who used to be ~300lb.
I have basically never followed any type of protein partitioning aside from a few months when I was 20. I just try to get enough daily, and even before the recent data don't think I was getting near the older teaching of 1g/kg body weight. I've made gains just fine.
What about the fats and fibre in the meal slowing down the digestion and hence a 100gm protein meal might slowly get into blood stream and the body can utilize all for that 100gm protein for MPS.
Okay here’s another Two guys train full body for a year: one lifts every day and one lifts every other day, who makes the most gains? Two guys train full body every day for a year: one does 5 sets per session and one does 15 sets per session, who makes the most gains? All sleep and protein and carb and hydration is equivalent or equal between all of them Do you have any videos on this topic already?💯💪🏽
From my knowledge, the guy who trains ever other day would be much better off as he is getting adequate recovery to build muscle. Sets are individual, experience, and sex dependent. Females tend to need more sets on average than males for the same growth responses. Advanced lifters will need more sets in some scenarios than beginners and intermediates. And different muscle groups respond better to different set and rep ranges. 15 sets per session is excessive for any muscle group if your work is quality with good slow eccentrics and full ROM. 5 Is a great number for most people and most muscle groups. If you mean total sets per session, not per muscle group or excersize, then 15 sets is adequate depending on your split and rep quality. 30 sets per session is considered the maximum even advanced individuals should do in order to avoid junk volume and excess fatigue.
Menno, if you use a study comparing 3 vs 6 meals, we can only conclude ideas in regards to 3 vs 6. Not 3 vs 4 or 5 meals per day. Even in the graph you show in your thumbnail and at 2:15 in the video we can see that around 180 minutes in the time axis MPS drops significantly. Why not consider a meal plan splitting meals between 180 up to 240 minutes apart? (3 - 4 hours) that would point Into the direction of 4 - 5 meals per day during 16 hours of being awake.
Id be curious how this ties into protein absorbsion rates. Obviously theres strong evidence to suggest casein is a good alternative to whey when you have longer periods between meals. Its why many of us suffer cottage cheese before bed. Could you do a follow up video tying this one into the difference between quick release like whey, and slow oike casein? Would a large quantity of casein in fact be better if your eating kess meals?
Presumably anabolic steroids increase the amount of protein used from a meal for muscle protein synthesis. Serge Nubret used to eat just one meal a day, occasionally two. I very much doubt that only 40g of muscle protein synthesis (the highest level quoted here) were the result of that meal.
Can I ask you some questions via email or the likes? And also, can I just eat 170 grams of protein once a day and still build muscle? Or do I have to spread my protein intake over the course of the day? Thank you.
Im not convinced by the 3MAD conclusion. Can you comment on the paper "The anabolic response to protein ingestion during recovery from exercise has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans" by Jorn Trommelen et. al. and how it fits into this?
Dr. Donald Layman and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon are saying that you need a MINIMUM of 30 g of protein per sitting to initiate muscle protein synthesis. So, how do we square that circle?
It reduces muscle protein breakdown, for longer. We can only digest a certain rate of protien per hour, so more protien in one sitting doesn't add much synthesis, but it does add a prolonged delay before breakdown. So in the end it makes a lot less difference as long as you eat the same protien amount. There's a good number of people doing omad intermittent fasting and putting on muscle despite that, essentially getting all the protien after the workout makes your body maximally stimulate growth, then breakdown is kept at bay for longer
I might be asking something completely idiotic but how does the info presented on this video jive with your 0.8g/lb recommendation (for a 200 lbs fellow, that ballparks 160g/day)? If I'm understanding correctly, 3 meals a day at 40g of protein each, a total of 120g protein per day, should be pretty much enough to maximize MPS and MPB in 99% scenarios. Am I missing something obvious, here?
Several studies have show that 0.72 grams per pound is already more than enough to cover daily protein needs along with strength training. I would call 0.8 grams/lb... protein paranoia. I'm personally doing .75 grams per pound to cover a small amount of my protein paranoia... he he.
I get what you're saying... The only thing I'll say is Dr israetel says more like 4 meals a day is optimal which would put you right at that number you need if you added an extra meal. Me personally I'd do the three meals a day and then have a protein shake right before bed because so much muscle synthesis occurs during sleep using a slow digesting protein like casein can provide those raw materials while you sleep and also make sure you're hitting those protein goals with just a more normalized three meal schedule. Also interesting to note that the most recent research suggests this might not matter as much as we think... That total protein intake matters much more than spacing it out for optimal growth, as people who fast intermittently see similar or the same muscle growth potential as people who space out meals... But my intuition is that once you are very advanced and at the upper end of your muscle growth potential then spacing out the meals is likely the optimal approach to eek out just a bit more from your program.
Apologies for going off topic. It's a reference to Hobbits in Lord of the Rings movies. They are known to have several meals throughout the day, including one called "elevensees".
Liked and subscribed! Been following you on Instagram Menno love your work. Relieved that my eating habits aren’t terribly misaligned with your findings 😂
Hi This is only applicable to whey protein, but what about protein from food like beef ? I think there are studies showing protein from beef mixed with carbs and fat can stimulate more protein synthesis above 25 grams of protein !
Does strength training twice a day for example, once in the morning and the once in the afternoon potentially help with gaining more muscle by increasing the muscle full cap effect so you can utilise more protein provided both workouts had the volume and stimulus, or would that be too fatiguing and could negatively effect recovery.
are bodies about muscle protein synthesis, like every thing else where different people have different levels of efficiency in protein synthesis? Some are extremely efficient and tend to add muscle tissue more easily, and others are not efficient in synthesis, and tend to put on muscle tissue more slowly? And secondly, does the body always synthesize enough protein to repair all damage done in the daily training, especially if someone is doing all their sets that week at rpe 9-10
So if you only consume 20 g of high quality (ie supplies all essential aminos) protein, can it absorb that fully if training is optimized? Or can only a given % of protein consumed be directed to synthesis (eg no higher than X %?).
I eat around 100-130g a day and I’m around 52kgs… I divide this in 3 meals. I love protein. I think I even eat more than that … hope my kidneys do not explode!
Let's say that after 20g of protein there is no effects on muscle growth; let's say that when ingested after a workout we can use a little bit more than 20g for muscle protein sysntesis... my question is: do you think anabolic steroids increase the amount of protein utilized for muscle protein systesis (given the correct stimulation via resistance training of course)? and so: would it be orrecy to say that enanched people can benefit from more that 20g per meal?
So if I consume 40g protein in a meal when I only need 20g to maximize the MPS, what happens to the remaining amino acids in the blood stream? Do they get stored as fat since the muscle tissue can't metabolise them or they get used by the processes other that MPS and thereby still beneficial to the body?
Hi, 3 meals a day minimum? I’m doing 1 meal, 2 if taking into account my protein shake (pea protein isolate) before the training at 5pm and diner 8pm, would love to hear about those, but at the end, 3 meals minimum is said? Menno, amazing person Iwan
So this confused me. Are you advocating ~ 3 meals per day w 20g of protein? That’s 60g total for the day. Your newsletter says you suggest 1.6g/kg of ideal BW. Can you clarify?
This is based on the assumption you get a significant number of calories from carbs and sugar (which you shouldnt). When you scale out the protein and fat (50%/50% by calorie) to replace carbs/sugar you get much more protein.
I'm a little confused... you said there's not really big benefits to eating more than 3 meals a day, but also you can't utilize more than 20g of protein at one time (or say 40g after a workout...) so that's only 80g of protein? That's half my daily target??
Nobody means protein synthesis when they repeat the myth about absorbing 30g protein per meal - they're meaning exactly what they say. They're just repeating what everyone says. I don't know why you'd try and excuse them by claiming they mean synthesis.
You only get as much synthesis as your body can generate and you can stimulate with work. But if you train hard, you gotta eat hard. If you have a gentle lifestyle and a slight physique, then 60g might be enough for sustainable. If you are 200lb to 300lb, your body needs more.
@@peterpan408exectly. But he didn't say a thing going against that. Do ye love Peter Pan? Peter Pan actually has 2 books by the original author, ye know that right?
@jakedragon8753 1.6g per kg of bw is the upper limit, or 0.72g per lb of bw. Also, 20g per meal doesn't refer to how much protein the body can absorb per meal, but rather protein synthesis. He explained the difference in the beginning.
@alexraymond-en4dd 1.6 as the top end has just newly been talked about, to where normal range for lifters is often considered between 1.6-2.2g/kg on the high end. Also, 20g is just arbitrary, where it doesn't account for bodyweight or whether the person hasn't had protein for 20mins vs 16 hours. Rates change based on how often and how much protein is supposed to take.
@jakedragon8753 1.6g/kg is what the latest data shows, hence the recommendation. Also, 20g isn't arbitrary, in that it's not picked out of thin air, it's what the studies showed.
@alexraymond-en4dd the 1.6 as being the top number is kinda new so I just wouldn't consider it a good recommendation yet...and 20g doesn't give much context, you gunna say a 280lb strongman can't synthesis more?
So what happens to the protein in our body if we have more than 40g of protein per meal? Is that still synthesized? Ex: 4 meals of 50g of protein. Will only 160g of protein be synthesized at the end of the day?
It gets used for energy. It’s inefficient and usually more expensive than carbs or fat so no benefit, but no harm either. It’s like vitamin C: Getting enough is good, but drinking 5 large bottles of orange juice a day won’t make you any healthier.
Remember this.. If you want to gain 1g of muscle you have to eat 10g to 100g of protein (depending on quality). If that's vegetable protein, make that 1000g of veges 🤣
@@staraptor2585Drinking too much juice will displace quality food, and overload you on sugar.. So not advised. People only crave sugar and carbs if they are starving for protein and fat. It's a survival thing where one will literally eat grass to avoid starvation and death.
If you eat a lot of fiber with your meals like typically vegan do, you will be digesting macro and micro nutrition much slower hence you body should have more steady and spread over time and this should allow you to eat more proteins in meal and have them absorbed. You are 100kg and target eating 1.6g@kg you would need to consume 160g protein a day so if you want to limit protein intake per meal to 20g you would end up with 8 meal a day, that is a lot. Eating every 2hr.
American wrestlers, bodybuilders etc eat massive amounts of protein per meal. i.e. whole chickens and more. The body can obviously use this massive amount of protein per meal or no one would ever get huge! It must also depend on the size of the person and the amount of muscle they have. A 50kg woman and a 300kg man can't both have a max of 20-40g of protein max synthesis per meal.
Yeah, did you not address that the one the study was in post-menopausal women and perhaps a 20 year old man is capable of far greater muscle protein synthesis that than the general population? Maybe you did and I missed it.
I got much better growth from five to six high-protein meals/shakes per day. Very significant difference, after years of slow/no growth. So: I don't believe it applies to me.
Manno change the set for more views. You are speaking to sport guys. The office set is good for authority bias, but not good for the sweaty gym rat… Nice work with the content. Source for evidence based info
@@tobiasottinger5200 how ilogical ? the human body evolved for millions of years with scarce food as well, and they dint have fridges to keep the meat from decomposing not did they know how to cure it so, pretty sure we can eat 2kg of meat and no protein will go to waste
Lions can weigh around 200kg and their goal is not muscle gains. They eat a lot, fast a lot and are used to it. They don't exercise for gains, they hunt for survival. You could fill up on meat, like the video says, absorption and digestion is not a problem.
There was a recent study that found that even 100 grams of protein per meal was still a big improvement over 40 grams. The protein synthesis is also spread over a longer time then.
Btw: if 40 grams was the max, someone doing OMAD would see the same muscle improvements whether they eat 40 grams a day vs. 160 grams a day :p
An excellent study using traceable aminos acids. Unless the data is fabricated, the 20-25 gram maximum protein synthesis is officially debunked. (Btw, Menno’s evolutionary explanation is extremely unconvincing, an evolutionary story can just as well be given for the ability to synthesis protein over a 24h period or more)
yes its a great study and in my mind now it opens the door to just eat whatever you want and total protein over the day is more important
100g 1 meal is better ?
@@juarezm.6737 Splitting it over 2 meals is probably a bit more effective for muscle building, but OMAD with 100 grams of protein is still better for protein synthesis than eating only 50 grams of protein OMAD. BTW, there seems to be a leucine threshold where eating at least around 30-35 grams of protein (with around 4 grams of leucine I think) in one meal stimulates synthesis way more than doing little protein snacks spread out over the day.
Another fantastic video. Based on the research you cited, I have been eating 3-4 servings of protein daily for the last 7 years. It's so much more sustainable and practical too.
The limitation here is using static numbers like "20g" "40g" without taking into account what percentage that number equals to the mass of the individual. A 130 lbs woman training a single muscle group and a lean and jacked 230 lbs male doing a full body session are going to have very different results here. It stands to reason the latter could utilize well upwards of 50g on a per-meal basis for muscle growth.
You say "it stands to reason", but it doesn't, what are you basing that claim on? The "limitation" you speak of is based on the science being done, whereas what you've said is simply a guess.
He quickly threw out 40g, or around 0.6 grams per kilogram of bodyweight, it was really easy to miss.
Not really.
People are over-obsessing with numbers when it comes to protein-and are neglecting the rest (training, SFR, resting....).
At the end of the day, it does not make a huge difference whether you are consuming 0,8/1,0/1,6 grams of protein per kg bodyweight. Unless you are a professional bodybuilder-but in that case you would not worry about this, and would just do what your coach will tell you.
It certainly makes sense that the more muscle you have, the more protein your body would need to repair it after use. It would be ridiculous if you could repair a skyscraper using the same amount of materials and labor needed to repair a garage.
@@SeuOu It might "make sense" but that doesn't make it true. The relative difference between lighter and heavier people is many orders of magnitude less than your example of a buildings. Furthermore, the relative difference between a lighter and heavier persons actual muscle mass, not just their bodyweight, is smaller still.
Thanks Menno. Clear and concise.
Great video! Does protein speed matter in this as well? I had thought the studies showing a 20g cap on MPS involved whey which is extremely fast absorbing. I would imagine a slower digesting protein wouldn't hit this cap?
Yes, that likely also plays a role. If you consume nothing but whey, you may need 6 meals a day even to keep MPS elevated as much as possible.
Hello, can you please make a long winded video about the amino acid leucine for natural bodybuilders and answer a few questions that totally confuse me. How important is the protein but especially leucine content per meal, because almost everyone says that studies show that you need at least 2,5-3g of leucine per meal to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and to build muscle but 20g of protein don´t contain 2,5-3g of leucine!? how much from a protein source I have to eat per meal, how many grams, for example how much raw or cooked chicken, turkey, beef or dairy, and how much total protein per meal when 20g don´t contain 2,5-3g of leucine? What is the minimum amount of leucine to stimulate muscle protein synthesis? What if I don´t eat a meal with more than 2 grams of leucine. Does the leucine content or protein content per meal depend on bodyweight or can a 160 pound male and a 225 pound male both eat a minimum of 20g or protein and muscle protein synthesis will be triggered? What will happen when I don´t eat 2g of leucine per meal, for example just 3 whole eggs, can I still build muscle or will I hurt myself and let gains on the table. Thank you very much, I appreciate you and I value the content
Awesome suggestion and interesting questions
I would love to see a video too
I second this
yes, video please
a video would be very valuable about this topic
The disagreement between the mechanistic knowledge of the anabolic cap versus the actual outcomes in studies is so confusing. If decreasing protein degradation contributes little to muscle growth, then why in at least one study in rats and that one study in Japanese humans was there such a small difference in muscle growth when having evenely distributed protein rather than unevenly distributed protein? Layne Norton basically says the same thing, that there is the anabolic cap of synthesis yet despite that it seems that in practice, having a single 150g protein meal nets you 80% of the results.
This video explains most of the reasons, I'd say, notably potential potentiation after fasting and potential MPB breakdown after higher protein intakes despite no more effect on MPS.
Thank you for improving the audio quality 👍🏽
Great video as always. I'd like to see your actual meals per day (full day of eating and schedule) and if you/they count snacks as part of these meals. Because 200 g of protein in 3 meals can be challenging some days, so protein snacks in between make it much more feasible. Also some people don't consider their preworkout meals. They are always like "I only have 2 meals per day and I reached hypertrophy", but when they share a video of their meals per day the preworkout and the snacks add a lot :O.
You don’t need 200g protein a day. Almost every single natural lifter can make gains with 120-140g per day. Most people on less than that. This has been proven time and again.
What about second breakfast?
What about elevenses?
He doesn't know about elevenzees. 😂
@@sarahharas9114what's that
@@stevethea5250 Apologies for going off topic. Its a reference to Hobbits in Lord of the Rings. They have lots of meals throughout the day. One of them is called "elevenzees".
Is this effect also seen when eating meals that have a combination of lipids, carbs and proteins? Wouldn't this delay digestion and absorption of protein to a degree where the muscle full effect doesn't take place or something like that?
Under the assumption of having no eating disorder or a professional need (stage competitions) for micromanaging single calories and timing meals, we have a constant stream of protein over the day. Simply because digestion outside of the whey world takes many hours. Your steak isn't digested in an hour, not even in 5.
From my view there are too many people with psychological problems about the fear of having not enough protein for muscle gains than people who really have the need to optimize and control everything.
What Menno said is realistic advice, 3 meals a day. I would add 1g per kg bodyweight at the bottom and 2g per kg at the top for protein. But because of the digestion factor not counted for each and every meal, but smoothed over the days. Why?
Easier to track, people around you are less annoyed about your eating habits, more quality of life and less time consuming. Apart from this, using less optimal protein intake does not mean you don't build muscles at all. It only means it takes a bit longer to reach your limit, something 99% of all of us will never reach.
Isn't there a recent study showing muscle protein synthesis being raised for 12 hours after a 100g protein meal? Wouldn't that mean that the body slows digestion with larger protein feedings and while there's a cap on how much protein can be synthesized in the short term, the body compensates by slowing digestion to elevate protein synthesis for a more extended time? Is there evidence of a higher cap of protein synthesis post exercise meal leading to more hypertrophy vs a smaller elevation for an extended time? Thanks.
id like an update on this too
If anyones curious, I believe the paper you're referring to is:
"The anabolic response to protein ingestion during recovery from exercise has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans" by Jorn Trommelen et. al.
If so, then that would only apply to the post-workout period right? they show plasma concentrations spiking higher, decreasing at the same 2h range (but decreasing less) then still still being present in small amounts (but higher than 25g) for the full 12h
One of the things I learned early on was spacing your meals is optimal but if you can only manage 2-3 large meals, as long as you reach your calorie/protein goals by the end of the day, you get 90% of the benefits, spacing it to 4-5 meals a day gives you the extra 10% so min maxing in a sense. Focus on the macros then if you can the micros, not the micros before the macros.
How many hours between meals
Absolutely fantastic video. Thanks! 🙏
Menno, excellent vid/info Thanks. I'd hazzard a guess that the average person working out is (on average) eating about 3 meals per day with at least 30 to 40 grams per meal
Thanks for the high quality information!
Personally, I do 4x40 + 1x20 to maintain an intake of 1g per cm in height. I do weigh around 185lb also, so the 1g per lb of bodyweight standard is also covered. I don't think I'm getting any sort of abnormal gains from doing this just for context, but I having a good understanding of my macros definitely allowed me to get better definition quicker as somebody who used to be ~300lb.
yeees. Using some memes with this informational content is the sweetspot. Thanks
keep up the good work
Thank you so much! I love your sience based video!
I have basically never followed any type of protein partitioning aside from a few months when I was 20. I just try to get enough daily, and even before the recent data don't think I was getting near the older teaching of 1g/kg body weight. I've made gains just fine.
What about the fats and fibre in the meal slowing down the digestion and hence a 100gm protein meal might slowly get into blood stream and the body can utilize all for that 100gm protein for MPS.
Okay here’s another
Two guys train full body for a year: one lifts every day and one lifts every other day, who makes the most gains?
Two guys train full body every day for a year: one does 5 sets per session and one does 15 sets per session, who makes the most gains?
All sleep and protein and carb and hydration is equivalent or equal between all of them
Do you have any videos on this topic already?💯💪🏽
From my knowledge, the guy who trains ever other day would be much better off as he is getting adequate recovery to build muscle.
Sets are individual, experience, and sex dependent. Females tend to need more sets on average than males for the same growth responses.
Advanced lifters will need more sets in some scenarios than beginners and intermediates.
And different muscle groups respond better to different set and rep ranges.
15 sets per session is excessive for any muscle group if your work is quality with good slow eccentrics and full ROM. 5 Is a great number for most people and most muscle groups.
If you mean total sets per session, not per muscle group or excersize, then 15 sets is adequate depending on your split and rep quality. 30 sets per session is considered the maximum even advanced individuals should do in order to avoid junk volume and excess fatigue.
Menno, if you use a study comparing 3 vs 6 meals, we can only conclude ideas in regards to 3 vs 6. Not 3 vs 4 or 5 meals per day. Even in the graph you show in your thumbnail and at 2:15 in the video we can see that around 180 minutes in the time axis MPS drops significantly. Why not consider a meal plan splitting meals between 180 up to 240 minutes apart? (3 - 4 hours) that would point Into the direction of 4 - 5 meals per day during 16 hours of being awake.
Most people are only awake about 12hrs/day
Fully agreed on the 3 vs 6 conclusion. Thats just simple logic. Silly...
Id be curious how this ties into protein absorbsion rates. Obviously theres strong evidence to suggest casein is a good alternative to whey when you have longer periods between meals. Its why many of us suffer cottage cheese before bed. Could you do a follow up video tying this one into the difference between quick release like whey, and slow oike casein? Would a large quantity of casein in fact be better if your eating kess meals?
Fantastic video sir!!!
Presumably anabolic steroids increase the amount of protein used from a meal for muscle protein synthesis. Serge Nubret used to eat just one meal a day, occasionally two. I very much doubt that only 40g of muscle protein synthesis (the highest level quoted here) were the result of that meal.
Probably. He was also a genetic freak though.
Great video backed by scientific research.
Can I ask you some questions via email or the likes?
And also, can I just eat 170 grams of protein once a day and still build muscle? Or do I have to spread my protein intake over the course of the day? Thank you.
Im not convinced by the 3MAD conclusion.
Can you comment on the paper "The anabolic response to protein ingestion during recovery from exercise has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans" by Jorn Trommelen et. al. and how it fits into this?
Dr. Donald Layman and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon are saying that you need a MINIMUM of 30 g of protein per sitting to initiate muscle protein synthesis.
So, how do we square that circle?
Two guys eat and train the same for a year: one eats one meal a day, the other eats 6 meals a day
Who makes the most gains?
6.
So what now? Muscle protein breakdown increases past 40 g? I don‘t get it, how does eating a certain amount of protein increase breakdown as well???
It reduces muscle protein breakdown, for longer. We can only digest a certain rate of protien per hour, so more protien in one sitting doesn't add much synthesis, but it does add a prolonged delay before breakdown. So in the end it makes a lot less difference as long as you eat the same protien amount. There's a good number of people doing omad intermittent fasting and putting on muscle despite that, essentially getting all the protien after the workout makes your body maximally stimulate growth, then breakdown is kept at bay for longer
I might be asking something completely idiotic but how does the info presented on this video jive with your 0.8g/lb recommendation (for a 200 lbs fellow, that ballparks 160g/day)? If I'm understanding correctly, 3 meals a day at 40g of protein each, a total of 120g protein per day, should be pretty much enough to maximize MPS and MPB in 99% scenarios. Am I missing something obvious, here?
Several studies have show that 0.72 grams per pound is already more than enough to cover daily protein needs along with strength training. I would call 0.8 grams/lb... protein paranoia. I'm personally doing .75 grams per pound to cover a small amount of my protein paranoia... he he.
I get what you're saying... The only thing I'll say is Dr israetel says more like 4 meals a day is optimal which would put you right at that number you need if you added an extra meal. Me personally I'd do the three meals a day and then have a protein shake right before bed because so much muscle synthesis occurs during sleep using a slow digesting protein like casein can provide those raw materials while you sleep and also make sure you're hitting those protein goals with just a more normalized three meal schedule. Also interesting to note that the most recent research suggests this might not matter as much as we think... That total protein intake matters much more than spacing it out for optimal growth, as people who fast intermittently see similar or the same muscle growth potential as people who space out meals... But my intuition is that once you are very advanced and at the upper end of your muscle growth potential then spacing out the meals is likely the optimal approach to eek out just a bit more from your program.
Apologies for going off topic. It's a reference to Hobbits in Lord of the Rings movies. They are known to have several meals throughout the day, including one called "elevensees".
Liked and subscribed! Been following you on Instagram Menno love your work. Relieved that my eating habits aren’t terribly misaligned with your findings 😂
Hi
This is only applicable to whey protein, but what about protein from food like beef ? I think there are studies showing protein from beef mixed with carbs and fat can stimulate more protein synthesis above 25 grams of protein !
Does strength training twice a day for example, once in the morning and the once in the afternoon potentially help with gaining more muscle by increasing the muscle full cap effect
so you can utilise more protein
provided both workouts had the volume and stimulus, or would that be too fatiguing and could negatively effect recovery.
are bodies about muscle protein synthesis, like every thing else where different people have different levels of efficiency in protein synthesis? Some are extremely efficient and tend to add muscle tissue more easily, and others are not efficient in synthesis, and tend to put on muscle tissue more slowly? And secondly, does the body always synthesize enough protein to repair all damage done in the daily training, especially if someone is doing all their sets that week at rpe 9-10
Finally, someone explaining this semi-myth correctly!
So if you only consume 20 g of high quality (ie supplies all essential aminos) protein, can it absorb that fully if training is optimized? Or can only a given % of protein consumed be directed to synthesis (eg no higher than X %?).
I'm pretty sure I read or heard that as we get older, we lose the ability to absorb protein and therefore should increase our intake. True/False?
I eat around 100-130g a day and I’m around 52kgs… I divide this in 3 meals. I love protein. I think I even eat more than that … hope my kidneys do not explode!
Its too late for you bro, your kidneys are already failing.
@@Behindjoonao haha if it’s a joke - I don’t think so my blood tests were fine 🤣 haha again
Being 'hard on the kidneys' seems to be a myth.
I think the Vegan-mafia started the myth..
Let's say that after 20g of protein there is no effects on muscle growth;
let's say that when ingested after a workout we can use a little bit more than 20g for muscle protein sysntesis...
my question is: do you think anabolic steroids increase the amount of protein utilized for muscle protein systesis (given the correct stimulation via resistance training of course)?
and so: would it be orrecy to say that enanched people can benefit from more that 20g per meal?
So if I consume 40g protein in a meal when I only need 20g to maximize the MPS, what happens to the remaining amino acids in the blood stream?
Do they get stored as fat since the muscle tissue can't metabolise them or they get used by the processes other that MPS and thereby still beneficial to the body?
Hi,
3 meals a day minimum? I’m doing 1 meal, 2 if taking into account my protein shake (pea protein isolate) before the training at 5pm and diner 8pm, would love to hear about those, but at the end, 3 meals minimum is said?
Menno, amazing person
Iwan
So this confused me. Are you advocating ~ 3 meals per day w 20g of protein? That’s 60g total for the day. Your newsletter says you suggest 1.6g/kg of ideal BW. Can you clarify?
This is based on the assumption you get a significant number of calories from carbs and sugar (which you shouldnt).
When you scale out the protein and fat (50%/50% by calorie) to replace carbs/sugar you get much more protein.
I'm a little confused... you said there's not really big benefits to eating more than 3 meals a day, but also you can't utilize more than 20g of protein at one time (or say 40g after a workout...) so that's only 80g of protein? That's half my daily target??
Nobody means protein synthesis when they repeat the myth about absorbing 30g protein per meal - they're meaning exactly what they say. They're just repeating what everyone says. I don't know why you'd try and excuse them by claiming they mean synthesis.
You only get as much synthesis as your body can generate and you can stimulate with work.
But if you train hard, you gotta eat hard.
If you have a gentle lifestyle and a slight physique, then 60g might be enough for sustainable.
If you are 200lb to 300lb, your body needs more.
@@peterpan408exectly. But he didn't say a thing going against that. Do ye love Peter Pan? Peter Pan actually has 2 books by the original author, ye know that right?
Speak for yourself lil man
20 g per meal regardless of body size? doesnt sound right. That would mean everyone getting on 60g per day on 3 meals
Just do 1g+bw and then divide by 4 and that should be ideal protein intake
@jakedragon8753 1.6g per kg of bw is the upper limit, or 0.72g per lb of bw.
Also, 20g per meal doesn't refer to how much protein the body can absorb per meal, but rather protein synthesis. He explained the difference in the beginning.
@alexraymond-en4dd 1.6 as the top end has just newly been talked about, to where normal range for lifters is often considered between 1.6-2.2g/kg on the high end. Also, 20g is just arbitrary, where it doesn't account for bodyweight or whether the person hasn't had protein for 20mins vs 16 hours. Rates change based on how often and how much protein is supposed to take.
@jakedragon8753 1.6g/kg is what the latest data shows, hence the recommendation. Also, 20g isn't arbitrary, in that it's not picked out of thin air, it's what the studies showed.
@alexraymond-en4dd the 1.6 as being the top number is kinda new so I just wouldn't consider it a good recommendation yet...and 20g doesn't give much context, you gunna say a 280lb strongman can't synthesis more?
So what happens to the protein in our body if we have more than 40g of protein per meal? Is that still synthesized? Ex: 4 meals of 50g of protein. Will only 160g of protein be synthesized at the end of the day?
you get fat
It gets used for energy. It’s inefficient and usually more expensive than carbs or fat so no benefit, but no harm either.
It’s like vitamin C: Getting enough is good, but drinking 5 large bottles of orange juice a day won’t make you any healthier.
Remember this..
If you want to gain 1g of muscle you have to eat 10g to 100g of protein (depending on quality).
If that's vegetable protein, make that 1000g of veges 🤣
@@staraptor2585Drinking too much juice will displace quality food, and overload you on sugar..
So not advised.
People only crave sugar and carbs if they are starving for protein and fat. It's a survival thing where one will literally eat grass to avoid starvation and death.
Hello Menno, pls tell me how to copy your beard. Thank you
Menno’s English is wayyyy better than a lot of other UA-camrs explaining how his stuff
If you eat a lot of fiber with your meals like typically vegan do, you will be digesting macro and micro nutrition much slower hence you body should have more steady and spread over time and this should allow you to eat more proteins in meal and have them absorbed. You are 100kg and target eating 1.6g@kg you would need to consume 160g protein a day so if you want to limit protein intake per meal to 20g you would end up with 8 meal a day, that is a lot. Eating every 2hr.
Digestion speed doesn't matter than much, since the body will circulate protein in the blood stream for up to 24 hours.
My blood must pump protein 24hrs a day with my intake 🤣🤣🤣
30g/hr while I'm awake.
me: 90 grams protein shake, 1 meal 50-80 grams protein. (I'm cutting)
American wrestlers, bodybuilders etc eat massive amounts of protein per meal. i.e. whole chickens and more.
The body can obviously use this massive amount of protein per meal or no one would ever get huge!
It must also depend on the size of the person and the amount of muscle they have.
A 50kg woman and a 300kg man can't both have a max of 20-40g of protein max synthesis per meal.
Xg of protein supports Yg of muscle etc.
That's why they say eat 1g protein per 1lb of desired body weight.
Want to be 200lb.. eat 200g.
all hail the comments section !!!!
Probably. Because the 25g protein shakes go right through me! 😂
Take Proteolytic Enzymes to help you digest that protein shake. Try it. It works!
Yeah, did you not address that the one the study was in post-menopausal women and perhaps a 20 year old man is capable of far greater muscle protein synthesis that than the general population? Maybe you did and I missed it.
I got much better growth from five to six high-protein meals/shakes per day. Very significant difference, after years of slow/no growth. So: I don't believe it applies to me.
🚀
and mike mentzer was right again lol
Manno change the set for more views. You are speaking to sport guys. The office set is good for authority bias, but not good for the sweaty gym rat… Nice work with the content. Source for evidence based info
I doubt its true and also each person is different. your body will absorb what it wants to.
lions eat like 10 kg of meat in one sitting
Are you a lion?
@@tobiasottinger5200 if their organism can process all that protein I'm sure ours can as well
@@arkh1730 that is either sarcasm or so abjectly illogical I'm not gonna respond to it
@@tobiasottinger5200 how ilogical ? the human body evolved for millions of years with scarce food as well, and they dint have fridges to keep the meat from decomposing not did they know how to cure it so, pretty sure we can eat 2kg of meat and no protein will go to waste
Lions can weigh around 200kg and their goal is not muscle gains. They eat a lot, fast a lot and are used to it. They don't exercise for gains, they hunt for survival.
You could fill up on meat, like the video says, absorption and digestion is not a problem.