[B] THE Historical PROBLEMS with MECCA (at CCSJ)
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Jay now moves from the sources to confront the historical problems with Mecca, the 2nd part of this talk which he did on August 4 at Calvary Chapel San Jose.
So, why is Mecca so important? Because it still exists, & thus can be researched.
What's more, we all know that Islam is dependent on 3 things, a Book called the Qur’an, a man known as Muhammad, and a Place called Mecca. When you begin to attack the Place (Mecca), the other two begin to wobble. But once you destroy the Place (Mecca), you destroy the other two as well. Thus, if we eradicate Mecca, then there is no Islamic Muhammad, nor an Islamic Qur’an, and down falls Islam.
So, let’s begin by looking at what Muslims claim for Mecca.
•Mecca is where Adam and Eve were thrown down to, from the Garden of Eden (Surah 7:24)
•Mecca is where Abraham lived when he destroyed the idols within the Ka’aba (Surah 21:51-71)
•Mecca is the center of trade North, South, East and West (Montgomery Watt’s ‘Trade Route Theory’)
So, it should be one of the best known and best documented places in history! Yet, there are enormous problems, including:
Conclusion #1: Mecca is important for Muslims because they believe that it is the earliest and most important city in the history of Mankind. Yet, references to Mecca in the Qur’an/Traditions don’t hold up historically (i.e. that it’s near Sodom and Gomorrah, or that Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar lived there).
Conclusion #2: The Vegetation & Peoples listed there are all 600 - 1,000 miles to the north. Other references suggest that Mecca is filled with lush fruit trees, grass, grains and streams, which make no sense as Mecca has always been in a desert with bad and depleted desert soil. What's more, geographically speaking, the Qur’an places almost all of its sixty-five referenced areas 600 - 1,000 miles further north of Mecca as well, suggesting that the authors of the Qur’an came from there.
Conclusion #3: The Qur’anic Arabic, as well as the supposed prophets are all situated to the north. Take a look at the Arabic word endings used in the Qur’an, such as the Aliph Maqsurah, or the Tarmabutah, or the definite article; none of them come from Mecca, but from Nabataean Aramaic, which is again situated 600 miles further north, while anyone writing in the Hijaz (Mecca) would have written in Sabaic Arabic, which is in the south (Yemen today).
Conclusion #4: No one has ever heard of it, due to where it sits, over 3,000 feet down off the trade route. When Dr Patricia Crone researched the surrounding civilizations to see if they had ever heard of the city of Mecca, not one knew of its existence, including those empires which were situated immediately close by. Yet, other much less significant towns close to Mecca (i.e. Ma’rib, Sana’a, Najran, Taif, Yathrib, Khaybar, Petra and Mamre) are all well-known and well documented; yet not one reference for Mecca. And the reason? When noting the trade route through these towns, we find that they are all located on the Western Plateau, while Mecca is over 3,000 feet down below it, proving it was not on any trade route.
Conclusion #5: Up to 741 AD, no historian, nor any geographer had ever referred to this city. When Ptolemy in the 2nd c. wrote his book on ‘Arabian Geography’, he never listed Mecca, so that none of the earliest 15th-16th c. European maps of Arabia have Mecca listed on them either. Neither the Land trade route (along the Arabian Western plateau), nor the Red Sea trade routes (along the East African coast) supports an early Mecca, proving that none of the trade went via Mecca at all, confronting the notion that it was the center of trade.
Conclusion #6: Here’s why no one heard of it…two words…”no water”. If you don't have water, you have no food; no food, no people; no people, no towns; no towns, now cities; no cities, no civilizations; no civilizations, no history! It's as simple as that. Despite Muslim’s claims for the ZamZam well (that Allah provides its “inexhaustible water” for over 1 billion believers), it gets all its water from desalinization plants built in the USA and Europe.
Conclusion #7: No mosque had a Qibla facing Mecca until 715 AD. Muslims have no idea why all of the earliest Qiblas were facing Petra (or Jerusalem) up to 706 AD, nor why none are facing Mecca until 715 AD. This suggests Mecca was chosen by the Abbasids in the 8th c. as their final sanctuary. The antecedents for the Meccan pilgrimage makes more sense with Jerusalem than they do with Petra, as they are not only earlier, but they use many of the same functions.
In Conclusion: Certainly, someone, somewhere, at some time should have known about this city; yet no-one, anywhere, nor at any time has, proving that it never existed at the time of Muhammad, nor during early Islam!
Note: if Mecca didn’t exist, then who is Muhammad and where did the Qur’an come from?
That’s next…
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics & Polemics - US, August 21, 2024
(109,170)
![[C] We're looking for MUHAMMAD in the WRONG DIRECTION!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xJABMQSuj6Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![[C] We're looking for MUHAMMAD in the WRONG DIRECTION!](/img/tr.png)
![[A] Islam's SOURCES are completely FRAUDULENT (JAY at CCSJ)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2TDKgwXuX5g/mqdefault.jpg)
![[D] The QUR'AN, a failed BOOK WRITTEN by MEN, just like you & me!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bf5qCGZ1EcE/mqdefault.jpg)
Great facts and information here...
Yes. Jay is not making anything up.
@AbrahamOfei Uh....yeah.....I wouldn't think Dr. Smith would fabricate anything. Thank you for that, though.
@@AbrahamOfei are u saying he is
@@aleksakovacevic3350 Read the comment. Analyze it. Genius.
When talking to an abdul:
Q. How many qurans?
A. One quran
Q. Is hafs quran a quran?
A. Yes
Q. Is warsh quran a quran?
A. Yes
Q. Is doori quran a quran?
A. Yes
Q. How many qurans?
A. One quran
Q. Are all qurans around the world same?
A. Yes
Q. Do the Sana manuscript and Birmingham manuscript have variants?
A. Yes
Q. Are qurans preserved word for word, letter for letter?
A. Yes
Q. In sura 37.12, one quran says "you", another "I"?
A. They are different accents
Q. How many ahrufs did muhamad recite?
A. 7
Q. How many ahrufs did uthman destroy?
A. 6
Q. How many ahrufs today?
A. 7
Q. How many qiraats did muhamad recite?
A. None
Q. How many qiraats today?
A. 10, 15, 20, 50
Q. Is Bible preserved?
A. No
Q. Is muhamad prophesied in the Bible?
A. Yes
Q. Did muhamad marry a child?
A. No
Q. How old was aisha?
A. 6
Hehe... 😊Awesome! You could add the following communication:
Q. Is the Bible corrupted?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think a corrupt book is reliable and trustworthy?
A. No.
Q. So Muhammad is mentioned in a corrupt book?
A. Yes, ONLY the references with Muhammad are uncorrupted.
Q. Oh sure... Is that what the Bible or the Quran says?
A. No.
Q. Does your prophet Muhammad say that the Bible is corrupt?
A. No.
Q. Who else makes this claim?
A. Allah knows best.
Alhamdulilah (All praise to lah) 😱🤔🥴
@@Indah-tjs
islamic wash-rinse-dry repeat cycle:
Q. Was Jesus a muslim?
Abdul: yes
Q. Evidence?
Abdul: The Bible says Jesus called God Alaha
Q. Is the Bible reliable?
Abdul: no
Q. So why do you quote the Bible?
Abdul: The parts that agree with the qurans are reliable.
Q. Are the qurans from the 1st century?
Abdul: No
Q. So why are the qurans more reliable than the Bible?
Abdul: because allah said so.
Q. How do you know?
Abdul: muhamad said so.
Q. How do you know?
Abdul: The qurans said so.
Q. How do you know?
Abdul: allah said so.
@@exmuslimAlonzoHarris Brilliant !! 😂😂
Who knows, maybe our friend Alonzo Harris (aka Ijaz *the doxer* Ahmed) the loser will provide some more examples... 🤔
for the woke
q is slavery racist?
a then Islam is racist.
@@Indah-tjs .......................
Do all the mocking you want. Just don't cry and beg when you're already facing trial before Allah SWT on the Day of Judgment. What you don't know is that you're not detached from Allah SWT. For every time you sleep, your soul would return to his Creator Allah SWT. So, every day or every night you're returning to Him. That's how Allah SWT love you inspite of your ungratefulness to Him. He still let your soul return to you. -09-26-24
God bless you Jay!
**Major Historical Issues with Mecca:**
1. *Nonexistent in Pre-Islamic Sources:* For a city supposedly vital to trade and religion, Mecca is shockingly absent from any significant pre-Islamic records. Prominent historians and geographers like Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy mapped Arabian trade routes and cities in detail, yet Mecca isn’t mentioned. If it were truly important, it would be on the map.
2. *Terrible Location for a Trade Hub:* Mecca’s geographical position makes no sense as a trade center. It’s isolated from major trade routes, lacks water resources, and has barren surroundings. The idea that merchants would go out of their way to trade here defies logic when better-located cities like Petra and Gaza existed.
3. *No Archaeological Footprint:* For a place that’s claimed to have been an ancient center of civilization, Mecca is conspicuously empty when it comes to archaeological evidence before the 7th century. Where are the buildings, artifacts, and inscriptions? They simply don’t exist, which is a huge red flag for claims of Mecca’s ancient prominence.
4. *The Kaaba’s Invented Origins:* The story that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba is a clear case of retrofitting Islamic tradition into a Biblical framework to legitimize it. There’s zero historical or archaeological backing for this tale-nothing outside of Islamic sources supports it. It’s more likely a fabricated narrative to create a connection to Judeo-Christian traditions.
5. *Confusion About Mecca’s Location:* Early Islamic sources can’t seem to agree on where Mecca actually was. Early mosques are aligned more toward Petra than Mecca, suggesting that the original holy city might not have been Mecca at all. This points to the possibility that Mecca’s significance was invented or shifted over time.
In short, the historical evidence points to Mecca being an irrelevant backwater that was later inflated in importance to fit Islamic narratives. The facts don’t align with the traditional story-it looks more like Mecca’s history was retroactively written to fit a political and religious agenda.
Great summary!
@@mysotiras21 Thank ChatGPT 🤖
@@YeshuaAkbar7 how did you ja*lbreak it?
@@helman41 😉🔏🤐
@@YeshuaAkbar7 ..............................
I think you should listen to the Rabbis who admitted recently that Islam is the oldest religion that can be traced back to Adam. Yes, Islam was brought by Adam from Heaven when he and Eve landed at Mecca. It is not only during the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh that Islam existed. It preceded mankind. It's already the religion of the angels before Adam was created. And when Adam landed at Mecca, he made the 'first' worship of mankind on earth at the area called Ka'aba. But as population exploded from Mecca to the entire world, Islam was forgotten. Hence, Allah SWT sent prophets to every nation to enlighten the people about this religion of God. But it so happened that it's only during the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh that Islam became prominent since it is clearly mentioned in the Qur’an. But there are people who are trying to destroy this religion of God by replacing it by the religion of their own making. But it is my conviction that Allah SWT would not allow this to happen. All their efforts will only end in futility. -09-26-24
Less than 20 minutes and a complete religion is debunked.
@svennielsen633 ....................
In your dream. Dream more. -09-26-24
@@defenderoftruth3212 - wait and see. No lie or myth can stand in the long run. But it may take years, before it is accepted. Like it did with Copernicus.
@@svennielsen633 ........................
Jay Smith has been doing this for 40 years already, had it impacted on any Muslim? None. Instead it aroused the curiosity of those who have the penchant for learning the truth to read the Qur'an and learned more about Islam, and ending becoming Muslims. -09-30-24
@@defenderoftruth3212 - maybe you believe your own propaganda, but the truth is completely different. Jay - and many others - are making thousands of Muslims turn to Christianity. Jay's work is part of a much bigger picture. But what I will give you is this: a lot of former Extreme Left Communists and other totalitarian minded sociopaths have turned to Islam because of its racist anti-Semitism. These neo-Nazis (my term) were never Christians in the first place, so we have had no loss - but on the other hand all of the Muslims, who turned to Christianity, is a real win.
No archeology? No artifacts? No bones? No water? Then, no Mecca, no prophet, no Islam. And so Muslims may abandon this false teaching with confidence.
@mr. angelosonassis3069 ...........................
You really believe that? Muslims are not that too low-minded people to believe in a scam like that. -09-26-24
Short, well said, and to the point . Very good sir
Heeey, this is amazing.
I always enjoy the results of your research work.
It is always convincing, incontrovertible.
Dr, Jay Smith you a light that reveals darkness of deception of more than a thousand.
May you live long in good health.
I love your works.❤❤❤
@josepholaseni4197 ...........................
Allah SWT might let Jay Smith to live a little longer to commit more sins so that he will have more to answer for on the Day of Judgment. More sins, more severe punishment. -09-22-24
@defenderoftruth3212 musliums need to educate them selves about the history of a religion they follow There is no historical evidence that Muhammed ever existed if he had existed he would have been an Arab Christian or pagen idol worshiper there was no islam or musliums or mecca no quran in the 7th century islam came within the 8th 9th 10th 11th century musliums follow the standard Islamic narrative there is no one true preserved quran sent from Allah there are many different qurans musliums need to look within the true history of islam and not follow sin 🤔 as no muslium will be going to paradise 😂
@@defenderoftruth3212ahhahahahaha why are you manifesting, do you know what god does. Are you god? You are a joke on this channel. I pray for your salvation 🙏
For anybody wondering Jay is in his 70s, this man is a machine!
Waoo. Well done Dr, Jay Smith.👍👍👍
Is this not convincing.?
Only the blind and the deceived can not see this.
If there are facts to disproof points raised please bring it to the public domain. Thanks
Words of scholar Marijn van putten:
It's worth adding that Arabic *bakkah* and Hebrew *båḵåʔ* are really pronounced quite differently. Had the Quran intended to to adapt the Hebrew word, we'd expect it to have borrowed the word as *bakāʔ* or *baḫāʔ*, and not *bakkah* that we find in the Quran.
It's mostly an issue of poor Latin transcription of the Hebrew that these words seem similar in English.
Great point.
So what do you understand by it if you do understand? -09-22-24
@@defenderoftruth3212
Why do you write your expiry date at the end of every comment? Why are all abduls so annoying?
@@Nethanyu_PBUH_SAW ....................
I want to express my deepest pity on you in advance as I can see how you cry and beg for Allah SWT to let you come back to earth as you watch how the fire rages, but there is no more way since it's already destroyed. -09-26-24
@@defenderoftruth3212
Are you tracking your periods by posting the date at the end? 🤣
Abduls believe in three qurans
Plus... they believe in 4 gods:
1) Muhammad (they even pray to this guy)
2) Quran (uncreated like Al-lah)
3) The black stone (not even a handful tiny pebbles that can forgive sins when smooched!)
4) Al-lah (whoever this may be...)
x10 = 30+ Quran's.
I think it is 37 Qur'ans now. Those fake scriptures breed like mice.
@@Indah-tjs ......................
Sour-graping for 3 gods which can't be explained? -09-22-24
WOW! This is very interesting. Christian and non-Christian scholars are going back into history and are arriving in 7th century Southwest Arabia - the place where the “Islamic Mohammed” supposedly lived his entire life - in the Hejaz (Mecca/Medina Region). They are inviting Muslims to come along and to join them in the search for:
(1) Mecca - the oldest city in human history
(2) Mohammed - the best moral example for all of mankind
(3) Quran - the eternally un-changed and un-created book that was hand-written by Allah before creation
(4) And (of course) the remains of Aisha’s goat.
*
So far, these researchers, academics, and investigators have found no sign of a city called “Mecca” in the 7th century A.D., and no sign of a book called “Quran”. However, they have found plenty of sings of other Mohammeds elsewhere in Syria, Jorden, and further North - some of these Mohammeds predate Islam as far back as 1200 B.C. and other Mohammeds whose images are on coins that bear crosses.
brilliant analyses
When talking to an abdul:
Q. Who is allah?
Abdul: god of islam
Q. Is allah the only uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are the right hands of allah uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Is the shin of allah uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are the qurans uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. How many uncreated?
Abdul: One uncreated
Q. Is allah the same as his hands?
Abdul: No
Q. Is allah the same as his shin?
Abdul: No
Q. Are allah, allah's right hands, allah's shin and the qurans (allah's attributes) one?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one?
Abdul: No
Q. Is Jesus God?
Abdul: No because something that is uncreated cannot be created.
Q. Are the qurans uncreated and created?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are hafs quran, warsh quran and doori quran three qurans?
Abdul: No. They are 3 recitations not 3 qurans.
Q. What does "quran" mean?
Abdul: RECITATION
Q. Are all the qurans the same?
Abdul: Yes
Q. But one quran says "I", another says "you"
Abdul: They are different accents
I think it was first Petra, because Jerusalem was already too established in Nicene Christianity , to have all these Idols described in the Quran, and it would not have had the fringe Christians teachings that are in the Quran. Later after the Arabs conquered Jerusalem it became the "Holy City".
I agree.
@@alexka9245 ..................
This is all false presentation. The first Qiblah is facing towards Masjid Al Aqsa. Early Muslims prayed towards Masjid Al Aqsa. -09-22-24
@@defenderoftruth3212please educate yourself on your true history and not follow sin 😂
@@susanlaycock7078 .......................
Much I want to educate you but that's what you are being brainwashed with. -09-26-24
Jay .
Why not muslim schoolers refute you with their counter evidence?
They have none.
Allah knows......yes Allah knows that Islam is only a lie !
Good work !
Jesus Christ is God.
Mecca does Wreakca islam.
May god always bless you jay smith! Jesus’s highly favored !!!!
I have a question: what is Allahs real name??? He just has titles but not any actual name!
Muhammad
That would certainly indicate the author of the Quran was not well educated. As in he has Bible episodes, but from various sources, so often not ones a reputable scholar would use, but should know God by the name Yahweh, but never uses that. He may not have come from the Hijaz, the evidence looks very strong on that point, as presented by Jay, but must have been from an intellectually ignorant milieu. That would logically be somewhere towards the north-west, although it could be a work of many hands, with later additions, but mostly present by the 8C.
@@collybever .....................
When was the name Yahweh invented? Who invented it? -09-22-24
@@defenderoftruth3212please educate yourself on your true history of islam and not follow sin 🤔
@@susanlaycock7078 .........................
This is the true history of Islam. Islam is the only religion of God Allah SWT. It predates before mankind. It is the religion of the angels up there in heavens. When mankind was created through Adam, he brought it down from Heaven when he and Eve landed at Mecca. There at Mecca, Adam made the 'first of mankind' at the area called Ka'aba. It is believed that it's Adam who built the Masjid Al Haram. As population exploded, his sons moved to Jerusalem. There, they built the Masjid Al Aqsa. But as time went by, it got dilapidated. But David rebuilt it. It got dilapidated again. Solomon rebuilt it. It got dilapidated again. Prophet jESUs pbuh rebuilt it. Evidence of his rebuilding it can be seen at the Dome of the Rock. Most of the writings are about him.
Going back, as population exploded to the whole world, Islam was blown into oblivion. As such, people created for themselves another religions. But Allah SWT would not like that HIs creations would depart from Him. So to remind them, Allah SWT sent prophets to every nation. There were around 12,400 prophets that were sent. But inspite of that number, people would not like to get away from the religions that they became used to. To support the prophets in their conveying of the 'message' of Allah SWT, some were given Scriptures. But the Scriptures that were remembered up to today are only the Psalms (Zaboor) to David, Torah (Taurat) to Moses, Gospel (Injeel) to Prophet jESUs pbuh, and the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad pbuh. As stated in the Qur'an, Abraham was also given a Scripture. Unfortunately, it's not named. All of these Scriptures carried the message of Islam. Maybe the verses below might enlighten you a little bit:
3:19. Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.
3:85. And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
2:208. O you who have believed, enter into Islam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.
2:112. Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
2:256. There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. -09-26-24
without lies islam dies
The coverup confirms the crime or The Fraud.
I side with Dan Gibson. The original Safa and Marwa were at Petra. The Hebrews took this idea from their stay there with Moses when it was known as Kadesh Barnea. Hagar did not run back and forth in Jerusalem.
@501Mobius ...........................
So the Safa and Marwa are portable and movable. From Mecca to Petra. -09-26-24
@@defenderoftruth3212 Any two hills can be named for them. So, they could copyright names?
@@501Mobius ...........................
You are already contradicting Jay Smith. He claimed that the Safa and Marwa are the two mountains in Jerusalem. You should reconcile with him. This is the effect of trying to make the truth false. -09-30-24
@@defenderoftruth3212 The locations according to Dan Gibson refer to water sources not hills.
ua-cam.com/video/uozietUble4/v-deo.html
@@defenderoftruth3212 Going between Safa and Marwa is a tribute to Hajar's search of water for her child dying of thirst until she found a water source. Dan Gibson points out there is a stream in Petra between two mountains.
ua-cam.com/video/uozietUble4/v-deo.html
Somebody took the Black Stone to Mecca. Perhaps he got more than anyone could wish for. To become the center of the universe.
They were fighting one another and some one moved the stone to a place off the beaten track
@@merelydave It would be a military move when a capital city is taken to a new location.
When the northern Israel tribes split from Judah and Benjamin, the new king moved the place of worship to his capital in Samaria iirc.
It's politics and very VERY common in history. New capitals have been and get made all the time. Besides Mecca is a beautiful city, nice place to think of retirement.
I have never heard in my life that the Jews circumambulated the Temple in Jerusalem, or the Holy of Holies (which was in the back of the Temple), seven times.
"where he dostryed the idols with the kaaba"
funny. kaaba is a pagan temple.
SLM means "graven idol". thats all you need to know about iSLaM
it better to watch than movie
Dr. Jay. There are two Bakkas North of Mekka.
One in Syria, the other in Lebanon.
Thanks!
Jay, can you please do a video which summarises why you are suddenly favouring Jerusalem over Petra as Mecca.
❤
@Pfanderfilms, you mentioned in a video, a few months ago, that you reposted the "standard narrative", unedited, yet, I am unable to find it, will you please point me to it?
Great Videos - do you have 10 bullets points I could give to a work colleague that wants to convert to Islam?
Just show them this, and then show them the Lloyd de Jongh who shows what sharia really is
@@HH-xw4hr Thank you
@@christiansoldier1118 there is also a Arab Christian, who has a channel named Rob Christian. He has a lot of videos where he goes to the Arabic Islamic texts and shows how they mistranslated alot of it.
@@HH-xw4hr I'd like to know why Muhammed's grave was built 600 years later!
How to stump Muslims: Who was Jesus' father, was it Joseph? Apparently not from the description in the Quran. Was it Allah? That would mean Allah has a son. Can there be a fatherless Messiah? Don't Kings of Israel need to be descended from King David and the tribe of Judah? Who determines a person's tribe, the mother or the father? Who was King David's mother? Did anybody ever care? The Quran says that a fatherless man can be the king of Israel, is it true or false?
@OttoNomicus ...............................
No. It's not. Nowhere in the Qur'an that says that a fatherless man can be the king of Israel. -09-26-24
Baghdad was the city for pray direction as that where the exilarch's lived leader of the Jews.
@everyone Ten Most common arguments that muslims will repeat till the end of time... assuming that they have scored a point or poked a hole in your faith... no matter how many times you repeat your answer...
1. The Trinity is Polytheism:
Fallacy: The Islamic critique often argues that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is a form of polytheism, contradicting the monotheism of true Abrahamic faith.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists have historically clarified that the Trinity is not polytheism but a mystery of one God in three persons, co-eternal and consubstantial. The Nicene Creed (325 AD) explicitly affirmed this, stating that Christians believe in "one God" with three distinct persons who share the same divine essence.
2. The Bible is Corrupted (Tahrif):
Fallacy: Some Islamic teachings assert that the Bible has been altered or corrupted over time (known as tahrif), making it unreliable compared to the Qur’an.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists have historically countered this claim by emphasizing the reliability of the biblical manuscripts. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient manuscripts have shown remarkable consistency over millennia. Additionally, early Islamic sources sometimes acknowledge the integrity of the Bible during Muhammad's time, complicating later claims of corruption.
3. Jesus is Not Divine:
Fallacy: Islam teaches that Jesus (Isa) is a prophet, but not divine, rejecting the Christian belief in the divinity of Christ.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists point to biblical passages where Jesus is worshiped (e.g., John 1:1, John 20:28, and Colossians 2:9), asserting that the New Testament consistently presents Jesus as God incarnate. Early church councils, such as the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD), affirmed Christ's dual nature as fully God and fully man.
4. Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross:
Fallacy: The Qur’an (Surah 4:157) claims that Jesus was not crucified, but that it was made to appear so, rejecting the central Christian belief in the crucifixion and resurrection.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists have pointed to both biblical and extra-biblical sources (e.g., Josephus, Tacitus) that affirm the historical reality of Jesus' crucifixion. The resurrection is defended as a historical event based on eyewitness testimony recorded in the Gospels.
5. Muhammad is Prophesied in the Bible:
Fallacy: Some Islamic scholars claim that the Bible predicts the coming of Muhammad, often citing passages like Deuteronomy 18:18 or John 14:16.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists argue that these passages do not refer to Muhammad but to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 18:18 is seen as a prophecy fulfilled in Christ, while John 14:16 refers to the Holy Spirit, the "Comforter" or "Advocate," not another prophet.
6. The Bible Has Been Abrogated by the Qur’an:
Fallacy: Some Muslims believe that the Qur’an, as the final revelation, abrogates or supersedes the Bible, making the earlier scriptures obsolete.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists assert that God's word, as revealed in the Bible, is eternal and unchanging. They argue that the message of the Gospel is final and sufficient for salvation, as affirmed by scriptures like Hebrews 1:1-2, which speaks of God’s final revelation through His Son, Jesus Christ.
7. Christianity is Based on Paul, Not Jesus:
Fallacy: A common Islamic critique is that Christianity was corrupted by Paul, who supposedly deviated from the original teachings of Jesus.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists respond by showing that Paul’s teachings are consistent with those of Jesus, as reflected in the Gospels. They also point out that the early church, including those who knew Jesus personally, accepted Paul as an apostle and acknowledged his writings as authoritative scripture.
8. The Concept of Original Sin is Unjust:
Fallacy: Islam rejects the doctrine of original sin, arguing that it is unjust to hold all of humanity accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists explain that original sin refers to the fallen state of humanity, not to personal guilt for Adam’s sin. They argue that this doctrine highlights the need for redemption through Jesus Christ, who offers salvation to all through His sacrifice.
9. Christianity is Idolatrous:
Fallacy: Some Islamic critiques accuse Christianity of idolatry, particularly regarding the veneration of the cross, saints, and icons.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists clarify that veneration of the cross and saints is not idolatry but a way of honoring the instruments and examples of God's grace. Worship is directed to God alone, and the use of icons or images is meant to inspire faith, not to replace God.
10. Christianity Teaches a False Atonement:
Fallacy: Islam teaches that each person is responsible for their own deeds, rejecting the idea that one person's sacrifice (Jesus) can atone for the sins of others.
Rebuttal: Christian apologists defend the doctrine of atonement by pointing to the sacrificial system in the Old Testament, which prefigures Christ’s ultimate sacrifice. They argue that Jesus’ atonement is an act of divine love and justice, fulfilling the law and providing a way for humanity to be reconciled with God.
Conclusion
These fallacies are rooted in fundamental differences between Islamic and Christian theology. Christian apologists have historically addressed these critiques by clarifying theological doctrines, appealing to scriptural and historical evidence, and emphasizing the continuity and coherence of the Christian faith from its inception to the present day.
It is hilarious that SIN says that Adam and Eve came down to Mecca. The current geography of the earth is all post flood (Noah's flood) and so the location of no pre-flood location can be determined. That puts Islam out of court from the get-go.
@dagwould ......................
Did the Noah's flood swept away Mecca? Or Saudi Arabia? -09-30-24
Rice Light
Trinity is complex to understand so islam is simplification of Christianity?.
To make it easier to understand:
Trinity ….
The doctrine of the Trinity of God has already given rise to the greatest fragmentation of the believers and will constantly be a source of annoyance as long as it is not corrected, i.e. offered to people in an acceptable way.
Spiritual darkness gave rise to it …. Spiritual darkness found an interpretation of the words ‚Father - Son and Holy Spirit‘ which was enough to confuse people’s thinking. It is also a doctrine of faith which had to be accepted unconditionally because the human being who thought about it could not arrive at a satisfactory solution, thus he would have had to decisively reject it. And this was prevented by forcing the acceptance of the doctrine of faith.
The doctrine of the three-personal God is unacceptable for every thinking person ….
It is already impossible for people to imagine God as an entity, because for them an entity is the concept of a solid form, without which it is incomprehensible to them. As soon as man imagines the Deity as a person, he gives the solid form a shape.
This is in accordance with the capacity of man, but completely deviates from the truth. To establish a doctrine of a three-personal deity is only to weaken the divine essence and to create a distorted image of the eternal deity through humanly limited imagination.
The concept of the Trinity of God can only be explained where the prerequisite for understanding is given through the desire to fathom divine wisdom by way of faith and love.
People who are neither deeply religious nor in love would only want to dissect this concept purely intellectually, and this cannot lead to the goal, i.e. no result can be achieved that comes close to the truth.
However, many things are understandable to the believer because he is mentally instructed from the spiritual kingdom. Faith and love are the preconditions for the knowledge of God’s love and wisdom, of God’s activity and reign …. They are also the prerequisite for receiving the truth.
Thus they are truthfully informed of God’s love, which has brought forth everything that exists …. They are instructed about the connection of all things, the primordial beginning, the purpose and the goal of all that is, and thereby they recognize the infinite wisdom of God …. They are informed of the power that flows through everything, of God’s omnipotence, of His will, which is constantly active, and of the connection of every creation with this power.
The believing, loving person grasps all this wisdom, for if he is believing and loving, the divine spirit flows through him, i.e. he receives the power from God directly and thereby becomes seeing and knowing. Thus he now also understands that the mystery of the eternal Deity can only be fathomed if God Himself can work in the human being through His strength, for spiritual things can only be grasped spiritually.
God is spirit, and the strength from God is likewise spiritual …. If this now flows to the human being then he can also penetrate into otherwise unfathomable territory, for then it is not the human being who solves this question but the spirit from God in the human being. However, the mystery of the essence of the eternal Deity will remain a mystery to people who only think intellectually.
And thus the doctrine of the Trinity was also interpreted by human intellect, and thus the doctrine of a three-personal God emerged ….
God can never be personified, He can only be visualized to man in the form of Jesus Christ, so that people on earth create an image of God for themselves by imagining Jesus Christ in all His glory ….
The eternal Godhead is love, wisdom and power. - Love is the originator of all that exists …. It is the father of the universe, it is the primal force without which nothing that exists could exist ….
Everything has emerged from love, and everything that has turned away from it shall return to love …. Love is God Himself. - What has emerged from love reveals His wisdom …. Love is God Himself, His wisdom testifies to everything that has emerged from Him, His creations, and thus what is from the Father is His Son. - And God’s will, His power, which brought everything into being, is His spirit.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are in themselves the essence of the eternal deity …. Love and wisdom and willpower. „The divine will of love took form“, these words are the same in their meaning as „Father, Son and Holy Spirit“. For the love of God allowed the will to become active and created …. God’s love and spirit embodied themselves as wisdom ….
The Spirit of God caused the Son to emerge from the Father. - Anyone who believes and stands in love grasps this wisdom and for him the Trinity of God is resolved.
But people who lack faith and love and yet have accepted something as a doctrine of faith that remains unacceptable even to the wisest sage are in error. For those who imagine a person-like Deity still lack all spiritual knowledge. They apply something purely earthly to spiritual beings which is completely excluded from the spiritual kingdom. The idea of a three-personal deity is misleading, although the addition is used …. „they are one“.
Man is forced into confused thinking as soon as he stops himself from thinking about it. However, God does not prohibit the human being from thinking about it …. God wants to give him clarity and it is not His will that he should be blinded by human influence, only that he should choose the right path which leads to knowledge.
And they are truly not called to instruct the ignorant, who are ignorant themselves and try to compensate for their inability to receive spiritual knowledge through intellectual thinking and intellectually established teachings. God is spirit and can only be fathomed spiritually ….
Amen
Islam grew out of an heretical antitrinitarian Christian sect, God can do anything he created the universe, blackhole and stars and people dispute on if he could become a man, there's no limit to his power.
It would not be a good text, if one wanted to see argue that. In Surah 5 for instance, Mohammed/Allah appears to think the Trinity is 3 gods, Allah, Isa and Mary. Although it says at times Jesus is just a man, at other times, it says things supporting His divinity (a word of Allah, creating life from clay, as Allah alone can), also one has anomalies such as Allah praying for the prophet, so to another God/within The Trinity, Allah called ahad, meaning "one of"/composite unity. It gives very bizarre versions of Bible narratives, i.e taken from non-canonical sources, also using known fables. Then it is all out of any time order, and lacks detail that the Bible often provides to authenticate its events and people. So, one could infer, it is only successful because of adoption by caliphs, maybe Abd-El-Malik , 690s, is the first, for political reasons, need to legitimate their empire and have a rival religion to Byzantium.
@@collybever ............................
Read again the Surah 5 and understand carefully. Nothing is specified that Trinity is Allah, Isa and Mary. The Surah 5 tells us that Allah SWT is only asking Prophet jESUs pbuh if he tells the people to worship him and his mother. So where is Trinity there? -09-26-24
@@defenderoftruth3212 hahahah the koran is the fall of islam 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Big Question ❓ to christians
A question to you all Christians and him
Why did he believe Abraham, Ephraim, Jeremiah etc existed after all the Bible old testament was written 2000s later ??
Isn't it far toooooooo late.
Since he rejected Muslim source for coming 100s years later why they he accept a source coming 2000s yrs?
What's his evidence that came
Fact :
Even if Quran is true, the Mecca of today is not the Mecca of Muhammad.
And that is the most charitable interpretation of all that has been found out by reasarch.
Where is the Mecca of Prophet Muhammad pbuh?
Where is his Madinah? -09-22-24
@@defenderoftruth3212
That is a great question. Go find out.
The problem is with him as he wasn't born in mecca abd disent really know history just making up stories to fill his pockets
😂i thought he believe Muslim First invented Muhammad then mecca then Qur'an.
So if that's the case how couldn't they described mecca in the Quran since they invented it earlier by shifting black stone from Petra to mecca
How is inconsistent can you be?
Jay: Yes😂
Makkah, not "Mecca." Anglophones can't do names .... Imagine mewnick.
Lots of things from gabblers,listen but not be so gullible! Ask God about these things ..are they true?
To belive somethings you need no evidence.
@@urbandsouza7279
Nothing stands on nothing.
Believe without basis is standing on nothing.
If the foundation be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
That sort of belief is mere superstition. Islam seems to have cornered the market on it.
Nonsense. If that's the case, then why early muslims had to made up evidence about mecca, kabah, prophet's graves, safa-marwa, etc? Why do you need to bow down to a cube everyday then?
😂😂these guy is a pathetic liar.
Last time he said everything was petra and now he said Jerusalem 😂
It doesn't matter, won't change the fact that standard Islamic narration is a scam.
17:55 watch. Everything about petra with copied from jerusalem practice of jews.
@@al54jff this is from a different video. He said the description for Mecca was petra but today he said Jerusalem 😂
Tomorrow he may it's Israel or Constantinople.
Maybe today is the first time you hear him regarding this topic
@@izharulhaqtruthrevealed1185 then just show the evidence of mecca existing, without using your man made book the koran
@@HH-xw4hr 😂 but the sources he used to prove it was petra are sources from Hadith he claimed were written after mecca was already created, do you understand?
He claimed mecca and Muhammad were created by 690 -700s
But the sources which he said were referring to petra are sources from books written 800s😂
🤔So how comes the people who wants to write about mecca and change it from Petra as he claimed still give Petra's description?😂
So that's why I say the guy is insane, because today he Said it's Jerusalem. I wonder maybe tomorrow he may say it's California
To say that Mecca didn't exist is an utter foolishness. The origin of mankind is from Mecca. It is where the population exploded into the entire world. It is therefore right to say that we are the descendants of the Meccan couple who descended from Heaven. We have the Arabian genes in our blood. For the first couple were Arabs. -09-30-24
@defenderoftruth3212 oh you are heavily indoctrinated into the Muhammadian cult I see.
If Mecca was the origin of mankind, it would be found on many, if not all, maps of antiquity. Yet you won't find it on any Jewish, Persian, Roman, Egyptian, Indian maps before the 7th century.
Also Mecca is a desert. Civilisation doesn't flourish in a desert due to a lack of basic human needs, ie water. Did you know the wife of an Abassid caliph had to order the building of aqueduct and water supplies in the 9th century as many Hajj pilgrims were dying of thirst due to a lack of water.
Don't you find it odd that the Saudi government build these huge buildings around the Kabaa with their huge foundations and yet they've never found anything of interest from an archaeological point of view. Does that make any sense given this place has been the centre of civilisation since forever allegedly. If you want to see ancient archeology, Biblical evidence is found many times over.
Also no book of the Bible mentions Mecca.
Whichever ancient document you look at..Mecca is always missing...ALWAYS.
Stop believing the lies of the cult and research the truth. I promise you it isn't what your imams or scholars tell you.
To end the "three personal God" teachings, please read and understand:
Trinity ….
The doctrine of the Trinity of God has already given rise to the greatest fragmentation of the believers and will constantly be a source of annoyance as long as it is not corrected, i.e. offered to people in an acceptable way.
Spiritual darkness gave rise to it …. Spiritual darkness found an interpretation of the words ‚Father - Son and Holy Spirit‘ which was enough to confuse people’s thinking. It is also a doctrine of faith which had to be accepted unconditionally because the human being who thought about it could not arrive at a satisfactory solution, thus he would have had to decisively reject it. And this was prevented by forcing the acceptance of the doctrine of faith.
The doctrine of the three-personal God is unacceptable for every thinking person ….
It is already impossible for people to imagine God as an entity, because for them an entity is the concept of a solid form, without which it is incomprehensible to them. As soon as man imagines the Deity as a person, he gives the solid form a shape.
This is in accordance with the capacity of man, but completely deviates from the truth. To establish a doctrine of a three-personal deity is only to weaken the divine essence and to create a distorted image of the eternal deity through humanly limited imagination.
The concept of the Trinity of God can only be explained where the prerequisite for understanding is given through the desire to fathom divine wisdom by way of faith and love.
People who are neither deeply religious nor in love would only want to dissect this concept purely intellectually, and this cannot lead to the goal, i.e. no result can be achieved that comes close to the truth.
However, many things are understandable to the believer because he is mentally instructed from the spiritual kingdom. Faith and love are the preconditions for the knowledge of God’s love and wisdom, of God’s activity and reign …. They are also the prerequisite for receiving the truth.
Thus they are truthfully informed of God’s love, which has brought forth everything that exists …. They are instructed about the connection of all things, the primordial beginning, the purpose and the goal of all that is, and thereby they recognize the infinite wisdom of God …. They are informed of the power that flows through everything, of God’s omnipotence, of His will, which is constantly active, and of the connection of every creation with this power.
The believing, loving person grasps all this wisdom, for if he is believing and loving, the divine spirit flows through him, i.e. he receives the power from God directly and thereby becomes seeing and knowing. Thus he now also understands that the mystery of the eternal Deity can only be fathomed if God Himself can work in the human being through His strength, for spiritual things can only be grasped spiritually.
God is spirit, and the strength from God is likewise spiritual …. If this now flows to the human being then he can also penetrate into otherwise unfathomable territory, for then it is not the human being who solves this question but the spirit from God in the human being. However, the mystery of the essence of the eternal Deity will remain a mystery to people who only think intellectually.
And thus the doctrine of the Trinity was also interpreted by human intellect, and thus the doctrine of a three-personal God emerged ….
God can never be personified, He can only be visualized to man in the form of Jesus Christ, so that people on earth create an image of God for themselves by imagining Jesus Christ in all His glory ….
The eternal Godhead is love, wisdom and power. - Love is the originator of all that exists …. It is the father of the universe, it is the primal force without which nothing that exists could exist ….
Everything has emerged from love, and everything that has turned away from it shall return to love …. Love is God Himself. - What has emerged from love reveals His wisdom …. Love is God Himself, His wisdom testifies to everything that has emerged from Him, His creations, and thus what is from the Father is His Son. - And God’s will, His power, which brought everything into being, is His spirit.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are in themselves the essence of the eternal deity …. Love and wisdom and willpower. „The divine will of love took form“, these words are the same in their meaning as „Father, Son and Holy Spirit“. For the love of God allowed the will to become active and created …. God’s love and spirit embodied themselves as wisdom ….
The Spirit of God caused the Son to emerge from the Father. - Anyone who believes and stands in love grasps this wisdom and for him the Trinity of God is resolved.
But people who lack faith and love and yet have accepted something as a doctrine of faith that remains unacceptable even to the wisest sage are in error. For those who imagine a person-like Deity still lack all spiritual knowledge. They apply something purely earthly to spiritual beings which is completely excluded from the spiritual kingdom. The idea of a three-personal deity is misleading, although the addition is used …. „they are one“.
Man is forced into confused thinking as soon as he stops himself from thinking about it. However, God does not prohibit the human being from thinking about it …. God wants to give him clarity and it is not His will that he should be blinded by human influence, only that he should choose the right path which leads to knowledge.
And they are truly not called to instruct the ignorant, who are ignorant themselves and try to compensate for their inability to receive spiritual knowledge through intellectual thinking and intellectually established teachings. God is spirit and can only be fathomed spiritually ….
Amen
I think you've entered the wrong court root. The trinity is not on trial, it's Mecca.
@@leedza. True, and they weren’t even able to debunk the truth of the Trinity after all that blather.
The Trinity permeates the entire Bible. Whether you accept it or not is moot.
@@mysotiras21 ....................
Not the entire Bible. Only the New Testament. The Bible is composed of two books that has irreconcilable conflict with each other. While the OT (Hebrew Tanakh) preaches monotheism - the worship of one God, the NT preaches Trinity - the worship of Triune gods. When the Bible writers plagiarized the Hebrew Tanakh and attached it to their supposed book, they didn't realize that these two books could not be made into one because of their irreconcilable conflict. This makes the Jewish Rabbis unhappy with the bastardization of their book. -09-22-24
Your long essay about trinity won't help Islam. Please just drop this Trinity stuff. Even your God, Allah mistakenly thinks Mary is part of the Trinity😂
Jay Smith believes in three gods.
Alonzo believes in a man who became God Muhammad. Jay Smith believe in a God who visited in the shape of a man.
@@wiseman4953
Jay Smith believes one of those three gods became a baby.🤣
@@wiseman4953This abdul doesn't have any knowledge on the subject. He believes in three qurans and that bismillah al-rahman al-rahim is three gods. He was crying earlier because Sam Shamoun and Jay Dyer schooled both the abduls, ijoker ahmed, the maturidi and Daniel picachu, the salafi.
@@Nethanyu_PBUH_SAW AlonzoHarris I S Ijaz Ahmed !!!
@@Indah-tjs
No, abdul Alonzo Harris is a salafi and ijoker ahmed is a maturidi. The maturidis contradict salafi theology because maturidis use philosophical terms to understand allah's body parts whereas salafis think they are real. According to salafis, maturidis are polytheists 🤣
Another futile, silly and tendentious video. For a start, why do you think it's acceptable to try to tear down others' religion? It's not hard to do the same for Christianity. Many of its core beliefs are clearly non-factual, and have no supporting evidence behind them. But if someone were to make a video like this on your favoured belief set you'd be crying about persecution and the like. It's futile because religion is not about reason. Any religion can be torn down by pure reason, but that will never convince followers because they have faith, the willingness to believe despite any reason or evidence. So, you're not going to convert any Muslims with this argument. You're simply preaching to your own choir to feed your own vanity and in the process stirring up Islamophobia.
Futile, silly and tendentious, bit like your comment really.
@@RoninofRamen Is that all you've got?
No one would pay any attention to islam if it wasn't violent & intolerant. Muslims have brought this on itself. Be peaceful, kind & keep to yourself & worship as you like & islam & muslims would have no problems.
"It's not hard to do the same for Christianity"
It has already been done with christianity.Now they are doing it for islam.
Simple ,deedat and naik started and scrathed jay will finish
Jay, you are so rude and tedious.
If there's no water, no one will live there -- it's all you have to say.
Truth hurts, huh?
@@mysotiras21 ...........................
Population would not have exploded into the entire world if Mecca has no water. Be realistic. -09-22-24
2hours that will blow your cap of if it were to be accurate ? ua-cam.com/video/a6Z0-Rf2bbo/v-deo.html Ancient Greece never existed, talks a lot about Arabic language and other interesting things.
Too much evidence for ancient Greece. One has with these ancient civilisations like that, on the ground evidence, many classical buildings, even there are early sites like Mycenae and Knossos from Bronze Age Greece. Similarly ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia (places like Ur and Nineveh known and excavated). Then there's the texts. But this is not available for Mecca. A 12C leather sandal was apparently found in Mecca, but where are the pre-7C awesome buildings and texts referring to it, in antiquity and the classical age?
David Irving is a Holocaust denier, thus a complete crank. Stupid video.
@@collybever ..................
Just think of it. Population exploded into the entire world from Mecca. Mecca is where mankind originated. -09-22-24