You can make the right read for literally every decision your opponent makes, but if you always answer with H Shoryu than your still wrong. Just because you guessed right doesn't mean the match just ends and the game goes "CONGRATULATIONS, HE DID JUMP!!!". You have to execute correctly too. Imaging going to court cause you t-boned someone with your car and say to the judge, "Your honor, I swear had the read but I hit B+2 instaed of the breaks"
You made the right read,but used the wrong execution.But I honestly do not feel people should be full on salt for that,because if you can make the read,then you are just halfway their,you just need to learn what execution to do.
I take responsibility before and after the game, but during... my salt levels flow like water when my plan falls apart. And get this, even with as much as I complain, I'm still considered one of the most respectful in our local FGC group.
@D D wanting the move changed, and accepting the move for what it is are two different things. Suggesting that you are still correct, or that wanting the move changed is justified because it doesn’t work the way you want in that situation is still wrong. The move doesn’t do what you want it to now, so using it in that situation is still your own fault.
One of my favorite things to say especially during these conversations is, "Game disagrees." If you do something and get punished for it but you think you shouldn't get punished for it, then the game disagrees. The game is the arbiter of what can and can't happen in the match, not us. you cannot challenge the game ever because the game wins every time
I don't think that's true at all. You're exaggerating. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must head to twitter to argue about whether Five Guys or In n Out is better for the fourth time this year.
There are some things in Melee that straight up don't work as designed. Like Yoshi's dash grab moving his head in the Z AXIS in a 2D game, making it whiff against skinny opponents. But with that said yoshi mains just gotta accept that dash grab will probably whiff against shiek so don't use it. I mean yoshi has a parry due to an exploit in his shielding animation that makes him invincible for a few frames, but you bet your ass that parry was a hard read despite it not being designed to be used that way.
Yeah, I feel similar about Falco's up air. Sometimes the second hit just doesn't send them anywhere, I don't know if some wonky hitbox doesn't have knock back or what. It's like rolling a dice where 1-5 either extends a combo or kills, roll a 6 and your opponent just goes nowhere and you get punished. I do get his point though. Like Roy's up smash is a dumb ass move that just does nothing most of the time, probably wasn't intended, but probably just dont up smash knowing it won't work.
@@0Enigmatic0 That's the nightmare scenario: moves only SOMETIMES working in situations where they're appealing for no clear reason. Especially when they're the BEST option. And your example is particularly bad because sometimes it's supposed to continue a combo in an INSANELY fast and chaotic game, so there's no feasible way you can completely prepare for it to botch.
Honestly in my experience when melee players say “this move doesn’t work/its broken” they don’t usually mean “man I keep trying to use this move in situations I think it should work and it doesn’t” they usually just mean “don’t use this move, it sucks and is almost never worth it” lol.
Melee is different because the game is actually broken, Yoshi's grab does not work the way it's supposed too, but it's hitbox has z axis offset in a 2d game, so it just misses.
I assume he's talking about the ultimate community bc it seems like melee players are pretty content with the game the way it is given they've been playing it for 20 years now
Joey McMuffin Yeah but Sajam’s talk still applies, you should know that going in and understand that the grab wont work in a lot of spots lol. But I understand what you mean, its easier in that case to understand the difference between developer intent and mistake. But the same thing about “well okay dont use it then” still applies. The inconsistency with that move is annoying tho lol.
THIS is EXACTLY what I tell people about games like Sekiro and Bloodborne. These games are not that hard. You simply have to stop playing the way you are and engage with the game on its terms.
Yeah. When I looked up some tips for a boss in Elden Ring everyone was just complaining about it. Maybe it was kinda bullshit, but eventually, by actually trying to approach the game as it was, I found pretty consistent answers for everything it was doing and beat it.
As someone who plays samus in melee im so used to just accepting how the game works. Forward air, up air, and upsmash dont connect like how most multihit attacks dont connect in melee, but theres different, albeit more niche applications for those moves outside of their *apparent* use of how youd expect them to work (like how they work in ultimate) Except upsmash never use that move.
Its because its not. Hes not really giving a take more than stating a problem is there, and telling people to not complain about falling for the problem. Its a strange non-argument, like if someone keeps telling you "the sky is cloudy" when you are trying to figure out if its raining or snowing. Like we know man, thats why the topic came up.
See this is the exact scenario that makes me not agree with him completely. Because sometimes her multihits work and other times opponent falls out. This randomness is it being broken and I feel like if it's random the move works or doesn't nullifies the whole "Oh you should know the move doesn't work like that" part, because yeah it does, just not every time
That "Antiair with a sweep" was perfect analogy to explain that, it all comes down to, what ever move Cesium used in that situation, is simply a wrong move in that situation.
Haha, I was playing Garou the other day "He's gonna jump" *Uses Anti air super(raging storm)* Turns out the anti air has too long startup to punish a jump, if you input before the jump, you SPECIFICALLY need either a BIG overhead jump, or a certain angle/whiff/block special I DID read that wrong, honestly, I shoulda went for down+C, (anti air, bit girthier range than you think, but upward oriented) Rock himself has 6 Anti air moves And they're all for something different Universal AA has horizontal range, good on ground, on hit converts to projectile or on ground hit/block, you can go for the charge moves to catch them off guard Down C has up right angle(if they're air normalling you'll likely trade unless a short hop) Charge Down -> up A has weak hits ,but quick ,doesn't stay in air as long to get punished as C Charge Down-> up C will do good damage, and covers a few options, but is WAY negative, it's basically a 'super me now' button BUT if you get a hit, it's great And the one I was trynna use was raging storm (double quarter circle forward a/c) A version does less damage I THINK it's quicker though, I can't check right now C version costs 2 bars and can be delayed if you wanna catch someone off guard, and deals Heavy damage, this is what I tried, thought it'd work on a jump read, but I think specials are the only thing negative enough to get this for sure (unless they just guard, nothing you can do bout that) And that's not all, if you're holding down + back, you're crouch blocking with 6 AAs , and can easy qcf to use either projectile or his high/low melee counter (acts wierd on multi hit though) so if you can read well, you get a ton of options
Bro I knew they were going to do paper, so I did rock, and I somehow lost! Why does paper beat rock?? Paper is hella flimsy and fragile compared to the sturdy, dependable rock -- rock should always bust right through paper, doesn't make any sense
NRS players will cry about their game SO MUCH but never try any other games. When I get tired of what I consider poor design by NRS, I just play something else
I miss the proximity normals...gave you more variety. and if it helps you at all, your proximity is your throw range. if you're in throw range(and low enough to the ground) that's the normal you'll get. thinking about it like that works for me.
@@soupyswan5706 i actually loved that every character had such a varied "kit", and if i'm being honest most fuck-ups are on me. I don't really have that problem on the ground, I just wish dedicated AA buttons and the close/far variation were separated
The problem with smash is that it doesn’t fit your criteria 9x out 10 when an up air double hit is supposed to kill and it doesn’t because 1/10 times they fall out that’s a broken move that doesn’t work as intended ie, Falco up smash in ultimate (especially for the year and a half before the patch tweak where it was more 60-40 chance to actually work as intended) This is mostly due to the way hit boxes work with the games physics system, and it will probably never be perfect with any multi-hit moves, but some are wayyyy worse than others But I agree with the overall sentiment When the output is consistent you shouldn’t try to bend it to whatever you want it to be 100%
In ult multihits are such an issue. 80+ character weights/air mobility/gravity and a million values for drift/positioning=a disaster for multihit moves with set knockback. On a programming level it is probably 100% consistent, but it is unpredictable at a human level. You can make an educated guess, but sometimes the shit just doesn't work. This isn't to be confused with intended mechanics like DI or SDI (ex Ken's dp), where multihits that can be reliably manipulated to not work. Falco up smash is a good example of a move that is unpredictable, which is worse than just not working, because sometimes it DOES work.
"Adapt or die" is a great mentality as a player but don't stop people from asking for developer change In older games, moves which don't "fully connect" based on factors out of either players control, software lag if stuff is on screen, literal RNG, and moves that straight up crash the game. We all know glitches and bad design is worth dropping an entire game over
Of course, but your criticism needs to be valid first and foremost. Is Kitana's B2 actually an anti-air? No. Does she have other anti-air options? Probably. Considering it's apparently a fantastic mid, maybe you should just be content with the fact that it's unable to combo as an anti-air because that's not the intended purpose. Besides, you can always ask if it's even an intended use for the move.
Only tangentally related but this is why frame data/ info in general is super valuable for fighting games. By having the tools to teach ourselves exactly how our characters work, we can move away from "I think this move works this way" to "I *know" this move works this way." You need to adapt your play to the mechanics of the game, but thats only possible when you're actually able to learn how the game works.
Sometimes I feel like playing our fighting game characters in their own battle stages are like projections of our inner most deepest insecurities and traumas as human beings.
They're complaining because the move or system is designed in a way that feels random and unsatisfying. If my move failed to create a jail because you had 1 frame to hold up and now I'm DEAD for it sure it might've been the wrong decision however you'll seldom be faced with a situation where it was the right decision. In a game like mk11 where you're already short on options and command a small list of moves this can feel very limiting. Sajam is obviously right that in order to win you need to adapt and accept reality. Unfortunately the reality you're accepting is that the game is designed in a way that's not very fun to play.
On the other hand, relinquishing responsibility in a game can be really liberating! There’s some games I suck at because I don’t want to practice and I accept that. If I lose, I know exactly why and I enjoy myself just fine.
Thought this was getting into the idea of robbery, that'll teach me to actually wait and listen lol I super agree though. It is a bit weird to complain about something "not working" and then doing it anyway. The wall isn't gonna break no matter how hard you head hurt it, you gotta accept that. I tend to mutter something like "game said I was wrong" whenever situations like that happen and try to adjust
I can definitely fall into this trap sometimes when learning new characters. SFV for me has been one of the biggest cases of it since I started playing in the last few months, but I think that also comes down to the games speed honestly. In the time it takes my brain to realize I lost a "right" read it's already time to start making reads again which is kind of overloading personally. Something like MK11 is slow and confirmable enough that it's more realistic just staggering a single button and then confirming into what you need if they jump. I play Joker in MK11 and was salty when learning him how heavy you get punished for rollouts/falls on many strings that anti-air, but the character's fucking nuts and deserves to be punished hard for his mistakes, and the dev's rewarding you for playing a safer more calculated plan is actually very fun and rewarding opposed to just letting all of my strings rock. You might not get your optimal combo, but if you hedge your bets with a F1 stagger as Joker you get your oki back at the worst which is a good deal. On the other side, I've wondered recently if these "right but wrong" moments are part of what pushes fighting games from popularity. I thought back to league of legends (I played a long time ago even hitting challenger), and how the abilities, movement, and skills interact with other players; it's very consistent and you're very often right when you're right. Correct reads in league (for example a good flash predict, or a good zed/shaco ult for invulnerability) seemed to be less variable than a lot of fighting games, and so it's unsurprising to me that it's so much more popular. It's almost like loss aversion theory, the feeling of getting punished when "right" is so painful you'd rather play a game which validates you being right.
This is why you can never EVER FULLY rely on legacy knowledge. They translate universally up to a certain point, and then you have to learn and play within that specific fighting game's boundaries. If a move doesn't work for a certain situation, then you need to stop and readjust your strategy. You will just get punished for doing it. Continuing to do so expecting something different every time will just toss you into the textbook definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a result that is what you anticipated versus what actually happened.
I think the heart of the issue is that a lot of FG players interpret "this move is bad" or "this move is niche" as "this move doesn't work like it's supposed to" when... More often than not, it is working as intended. Obviously there are some edge cases where moves are, in a literal sense, broken, like a lot of old smash multi hits that randomly dropped the opponent, but that shit is rare in modern games gets fixed soon. If a move is shit it's most likely shit by design. You could argue if it should or shouldn't be shit balancing wise, but you just have to accept the reality that it is.
Can't believe I'm seeing this year's later when mk11 got me into the fgc and so many complaints like this have defined how I see these games. People can hate things like breakaway, by all means we certainly get opinions! But people would say 'I get punished for landing a hit, because if they break at this point in this combo I get punished'... Well do a different combo? Or, hate breakaway enough not to play the game. I get both. I don't get seeing the opponent has the meter to breakaway, doing the risky move, and then getting mad at the game when they use breakaway. The only positive is it showed me many ways not to look at these games if I going to care to put this much effort in. Play the game on its terms, it's for the best.
I assumed it would be more of a Smash Ultimate discussion since they are still subject to patches where the Melee scene decided on universal controller fix, rule changes and the specific version of the game to play. I'm sure some people are annoyed at the bizarre behaviour of moves which were one character of code away from being slightly useable (Luigi dash attack was cursed in Smash 64 as well IIRC) but after over a decade, people accept how things work in general as long as it isn't a trashfire. Same goes for other cases like Third Strike or Super Turbo.
@Noah Whelan I guess the solution would be adding the autolink properties but that runs the risk of making things too homogenous even if it makes things "work". DI and SDI are always going to be part of the picture as well as odd hurtboxes. Last I remember, Pit has unremarkable hitboxes but not strange ones.
I think, most of the time, when Smash players multi-hit moves are just jank because DI + whatever momentum. Like I Pit nair and the big ass donkey kong just falls out from the center like! !!!!
While I don't disagree with the premise I think it's also important to tie the mindset back into how people learn how to play fighting games, and remind everybody why we need better tutorials. I learned everything I know about fighting games from friends or UA-cam videos, and what they taught me they kept simple. You find a move that anti-airs and you stick to that while you're learning how to play. You find something effective on the ground and you stick to that while you figure out what you're doing. This lets you get into the game and start to figure out how it flows before committing to learning the whole thing. The downside to this strategy is that it can put you on crutches, with muscle memory baked in for moves that might not be the best in every situation. It can also "teach" you that moves that catch people in the air are "anti-airs" or that optimal offense requires pressure from your "best" string at every range it's available. It's more difficult to teach someone that sometimes moves or strings are balanced around weird situations where somebody might drop out of a combo at awkward heights or ranges, or which might only provide optimal outcomes in incredibly niche sets of circumstances. When a player who doesn't understand the design philosophy and they run into something that doesn't fit into their tutorial box they can feel cheated, like the game is doing something they were never told to expect, or that the game shouldn't be doing it. I'm not saying those people are right, and I'm not saying it's a healthy mindset, but I am providing just a little bit of defense for people who feel 'wronged' when they run into game balance or mechanics that don't fit into the boxes they understand. Sometimes you can't even conceptualize that somebody balanced a mechanic in such a strangely specific way that it can appear to be successful and still result in failure on a mechanical level.
One of my favorite quotes from the Venture Bros i think encapsulates this decently well, "That wasn't us it was the OSI. If I throw this pen at you are you going to be mad at me, or have a little fist fight with the pen?" Hunter Gathers. Good show, good work Sajam.
Now of course you're correct on this statement, I'll start with that. You're totally correct in that between who desires a move to work a specific way, between the player and the game, the game is completely correct 100% of the time, Just cause yeah that's how it works. THE ONLY TIME this statement has contention is when the DEVELOPER, CREATOR OF THE GAME disagrees with THE GAME on how the game should work, and maybe even the PLAYER as well. As a separate statement to that though, Lets talk about Waldstein's only DP. shoruken forward C as wald is a 100 meter invuln move used as his only reversal outside of the universal Veil off (which is hard to use and literally does no damage) Now because of this, if I see my opponent Jump at me and press a button way too early for a safe Jump, and I DP that, I should hit them. The game agrees, the dev agrees and I agree. The problem is, Wald stops being invuln on the first frame a hitbox comes out, meaning I can instead trade and lose the situation despite being entirely correct and everyone agreeing on what should happen. Who do you think is wrong? Is the move not a DP then? Is it Just inconsistent? I'm curious to hear your answer if you'll give one.
@Halcyon Days Woah backoff dude I'm Just raising a question. I appreciate the answer nonetheless. There is still some contention however, it's not that clear cut you see. It is still invulnerable, and the only way I can know it gets stuffed there is to, in some situations, know the exact frame that my opponent pressed their button, and exactly how long it's active for. This is simply unreasonable, especially considering this move is still my only option out of this scenario. You understand now? I understand that I am in complete control of the character and that whatever happens is the result of my actions, but when I use the move to invuln my opponent and still lose due to not knowing exactly how active my opponents move is, can you really consider that to be my fault?
The thing with smash players is I think they're right that the moves aren't working as intended considering smash ultimate keeps getting patches that tries fixing moves properties to be more consistent such as people falling out of multi hits and such
There are literally broken moves in Ssbm like Link's Neutral air. The move doesn't end correctly so the hitbox stays on link's leg until he lands or does another move. This is definitely unintended and looking into the code proves this as most moves have a flag that dictates when hitboxes appear and disappear but link's Nair does not have the disappear flag. That being said: It's consistent and always a treat to see used in a real match lol. And honestly some moves I think can be interesting and bad like Juri's overhead in SFV. It's f.mk for her overhead and it's +0 on hit but since grabs in SFV are only 1 frame startup this means that I as Juri can grab the opponent after hitting my overhead. This mixup really confuses a lot of players and I love it because once they catch on I mixup HK since it puts Juri in the air and avoids grabs.
I think part of the reason a lot of Smash fans get annoyed is that a lot of moves we claim "don't work" are multihits that sometimes work. Smash has a ton of little factors that can change if a multihit connects (your drift, your oppenents drift, rage, your oppenent's percent, hurtbox shifting, ect) that make it so it's not always possible to tell why it didn't connect, at least not in the moment. I personally don't like to dwell on it personally, but I can see why someone would be annoyed that their Nair connects against airborn opponents 90% of the time and gets them punished 10% of the time because of factors they can't always predict.
I can agree with that, but the big issue with Kitana's B231 is that it IS Kitana's best mid, and we usually use that to meaty people. Meaties are extremely inconsistent in MK11, so people JUMP on wakeup all the time. And then B2 hits the opponent but the rest doesn't and then you get punished and then opponent has Fatal Blow and he presses two buttons to completely turn the game around. That's what feels like robbery.
This triggered my MK11 PTSD lol. Spawn as a projectile parry where he goes into the parry stance and when he absorbs a projectile he lunges and grabs the opponent, welp most characters recover so fast from throwing projectiles they can just block before your lunge reaches. And my exact line was ''this move dosn't do what it's designed to do this is bullshit''
If you didn't know about something then you're allowed one (1) "oh that's kinda dumb how it works that way" card, but if you remember it happening and keep on doing it, it's definitely your fault.
every sajam talk goes something like: "you're god-fucking-stupid, because x, y and z but you can and will be a smart chad so long as you accept and try w"
You are oversimplifying the topic. Sometimes moves are meant to have a specific function, however they might behave in unintended or inconsistent ways. First of all, how do we determine whether a move is "supposed" to do something or not? Well, let's assume we're playing a game with a homogenous cast like DBFZ, where the same inputs will result in a pool of moves with similar properties across the cast. Now let's pick a move, like 2H. By testing it out with a bunch of characters we understand the move is invincible against ariborne opponents and that it will always beat a core game mechanic, which is super dash. So I think it's pretty safe to assume the move's purpose: it's an anti-air by design. And it's specifically the only answer to super dash after testing other moves as well. So far so good. But hey, we haven't tested Nappa's 2H yet. Let's try that. Well, it turns out that his 2H will reliably whiff when a small character tries to super dash at him. Not only that, but he will get punished because of the long recovery. Now, of course I won't try to use it against small characters from now on, since I know it's a really bad idea. However, by comparing the move with the rest of the cast's version we know it's something that's not supposed to happen. In fact Nappa's 2H got patched and received an increased hitbox later on. It will now work on everyone, as intended. Here's the thing: when people say they got robbed for using a move, they are not denying reality as you might think. What they're trying to say is this: "sup devs, this thing is dumb and it makes no sense, please change it"
Smash is kind of a special case because multihit moves for a lot of characters just drop unexpectedly. Pre-Patch Falco was a huge example. His upsmash had no low hit box as if to scream at the player to use it as an anti air, but in so many cases the second hit of the move just would whiff aerial opponents. Then there’s pre-patch Ken shoryu which always dropped, Bayo’s up tilt, Falco’s throws, Falco’s nair... point being moves in smash had very clear intentions, and yet failed to actually work and the devs patched those moves to make them work after enough complaining.
I agree for the most part but the way some moves work in smash, especially with the context of how many times they've tried to fix flurry jabs in the patches, is pretty frustrating.
The problem in smash is that people deadass fall out of moves while they are happening but only occasionally Because programming multihit hitboxes to work with characters that move around this much and do them in different positions is hard (it's not actually hard but nintendo made their bag and people still play the game with hitboxes that "don't work"). They also added the fact that you can't move through one another in ult. So you deadass might miss a move that hits. Because the game's collision detection is too strong. And pushed the opponent away from your hitbox.... for being too close... This and multiple aerials that characters sometimes just fall out of due to a lack of hitboxes/bad linking stats
Rookie Ken players are lowkey geniuses and always make the perfect read. Unfortunately Capcom just didn't design heavy/EX shoryu properly so it can't be used as an answer for all those godlike reads.
The best example I can give for smash is pre buff Captain Falcon. Up smash only combos into the 2nd hit half the time (even with no sdi) and raptor boost would whiff on straight up stationary opponents at times. Those are moves that were broken but since fixed.
Feels like sometimes being a dev that is so communicative and willing to change for its players incites people to believe they can over-ask for what they think they want, rather than learning how to adapt and revolutionize.
The devs at Iron Galaxy talk about this in the KI documentary. Balancing how you interact with feedback is almost as tough as balancing the actual game.
I've had conversations like this with high/top level players in my game. Knowing every single optimal punish for every single read you could make is a waste of time. You eventually get to a point where you are comfortable enough with your character's kit and how situations play out that you can start punishing habits with literally anything. No one gives a fuck if your move doesn't anti air the way you want to when you would still just as easily lose to a top player who was only using their normals
the boys I play with have a saying: "Game Disagrees". Anytime someone says something like "oh I think that should have hit" or "that shouldn't work there" or are otherwise johning in the way you describe we just say Game Disagrees. Love those guys but man they are not fun people to play Mario Party with.
Yeah I feel like there are often complaints about, say, multi hits not connecting, at least coming from playing platform fighters way more. But oftentimes it's more an issue of spacing than the move simply not working. Like in Rivals of Aether, one character, Forsburn, has strong attacks where he swings his cape, and then thrusts his dagger. But if you don't space the cape right, it will not connect into the dagger no matter how you slice it. And that's just one example, so yeah I 100 percent agree.
Accepting responsibility is a sign that you’re going to improve at an accelerated rate compared to people that keep fucking up and keep avoiding responsibility
The thing that I think people need to get used to is that a read comes in two parts. There's recognising the move and then there's reacting with the correct response. I think a lot of people, myself included, can do the first part, they can see the move coming, but they haven't labbed enough to know the correct response, so they go with their gut. When their instinct is wrong, they either make note of this thing they need to learn or decide that they were Right Actually because they knew what they were reacting to and say the move they used is broken.
I'm ten months late but this is the exact kind of advice I need to overcome my main hurtles in Strive rn. Hopefully I can keep it in mind next time I boot up!
Sajam is 100% right. I was playing Ciel vs Saber in Melty Blood and could not for the life of me figure out an answer to her Charge j.C. My opponent goes "just stuff her while she's charging," which worked less than 10% of the time because Ciel can't reach Saber at double jump height reactively before the Armor on j.C activates. I tried grounded 3C which has head-inulin properties but it either came out too slow or just clanked on Saber's armor before I got hit anyways. Sometimes 3C would just outright whiff due to Ciel stepping forward like SSJ4 Gogeta's 2H. At the end, I figured out just Shield punishing the charged j.C was my best answer and playing RPS after. In a situation where my character had no buttons/tools to contest the move, I had to just understand that I have to just either block or rely on system tools regardless of how bad the situation feels.
The ONLY way someone could feasibly make this argument is if the move they’re saying is broken does not actually work like intended. Say like a DP that is intended to be used as an invincible reversal, but is missing the i-frames needed. That’s a move that is actually broken. Gbvs Beelzebub’s DP has active I-frames later than most DPs and has less horizontal range than everyone else’s DP. I hate that, but that’s an intended choice by the devs.
Even then, if you keep trying to reversal with it that's your fault bud. It sucks but that's just the way it is. You can complain about it, but doing it over and over again won't magically make it work the way you want so try a different option, or in bubs' case just block like your life depends on it
What's frustrating for me is trying to understand the devs logic behind some moves. Since you brought up GBVS, Narmayas' Setsuna and Transient always baffled me. Like why is L Setsuna so punishable on block even when you hit with the tip of the fireball/poke (pokeball)? Or why does M Transient expand her hitbox so that all an opponent needs to do to stuff her crossup attempt is jab, when Lancelot can dash in almost any situation with impunity? She can still be fun to play but man it's frustrating sometimes.
Some moves genuinely do not work as intended or are a little weaker than they ought to be at a specific purpose. The key to that kind of stuff is based on complaining hard enough and bringing awareness to get devs to notice. That said, I completely agree with statement of until that patch which may or may not come out, you are stuck with what you have. If you're options for x situation feels so bad that its intolerable, then its time to switch characters bro.
Look at the bottom tier characters in Melee. That's what I think about when moves don't work. One of Kirby's throws, I think it's back or forward, doesn't work.
Thats why people like melee, it has creative combos that are more dynamic than other fighting games and allow players' personalities to be expressed greatly
Another good example of this is Kunoichi's Kunai throws (non-mana} in DNF. Her standard Kunai are pretty good for the following, spacing, counter zoning, and if you have white health you can use the grounded version (6S) you can converge and get some from full screen. What's the problem with it at this time.....the jumping version is negative on hit. I can throw it out jumping forward and land in front of my opponent get ready for to start pressure then die instead. The grounded Kunai throw is apparently active to the point if you use it to end a block string and misspace it . You won't just get a punish you'll get counter hit instead. Its a good move but these draw backs lead to poor situations if you don't keep these things in mind.
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
This argument feels like some people are trying to eat soup with a fork then complaining that the fork is defective.
Also the spoon is sitting right next to the bowl but they refuse to use it. "I know the spoon is there but I should be able to eat it with the fork!"
@@boogerhaze93 What do you mean it's easier to scoop up soup with spoon? The fork HAS to work because I want it to.
We need to nerf soup!
Except they didn't bring out the fork, the restaurant did.
@@seokkyunhong8812 But as mentioned above the spoon is next to the bowl.
"Pressing the same button over and over again and expecting something different every time is the definition of insanity" -Sajam
Actually that's just how your supposed to play neutral in Dragon Ball FighterZ.
But I LIKE that button and it should do everything always!
@@coltonmarples4269 because dbfz is the sesame street of fighting games.
@@AgentSephiroth underrated comment
don't fear the man who's pressed every button once, fear the man who's pressed one button a milllion times.
You can make the right read for literally every decision your opponent makes, but if you always answer with H Shoryu than your still wrong. Just because you guessed right doesn't mean the match just ends and the game goes "CONGRATULATIONS, HE DID JUMP!!!". You have to execute correctly too. Imaging going to court cause you t-boned someone with your car and say to the judge, "Your honor, I swear had the read but I hit B+2 instaed of the breaks"
Still, acknowledging that you made a mistake and knowing what you could've done better is a path towards improvement
"But I hit B+2 instead of the brakes" has me ROLLING 😂
So are you trying to tell me I've been playing SF4 Ken wrong all these years? howdareyou
You made the right read,but used the wrong execution.But I honestly do not feel people should be full on salt for that,because if you can make the read,then you are just halfway their,you just need to learn what execution to do.
Sajam is the master of roasting you while teaching you at the same time . The most professional man in the fgc.
Chad teacher
@Byron Martin mind blown
This is just basic logic and common sense, its actually pretty funny to see that Sajam has to argue about this
I take responsibility before and after the game, but during... my salt levels flow like water when my plan falls apart.
And get this, even with as much as I complain, I'm still considered one of the most respectful in our local FGC group.
@D D He addresses this specifically. ua-cam.com/video/NgqKjvgcTV4/v-deo.html right here.
@D D That just means you guessed wrong by using that move
@D D wanting the move changed, and accepting the move for what it is are two different things. Suggesting that you are still correct, or that wanting the move changed is justified because it doesn’t work the way you want in that situation is still wrong. The move doesn’t do what you want it to now, so using it in that situation is still your own fault.
@D D if you guess right but you do the wrong move, you guessed wrong.
The zoom in on the finger pointing killed me.
I knew that commenter was about to get cooked
One of my favorite things to say especially during these conversations is, "Game disagrees." If you do something and get punished for it but you think you shouldn't get punished for it, then the game disagrees. The game is the arbiter of what can and can't happen in the match, not us. you cannot challenge the game ever because the game wins every time
Animation agrees. Physics disagrees. Game deceives.
you can be the arbitrer by playing a game that isnt shit
My exact response when someone says "I blocked that" or "I parried that" when a move hits them. The game says fuck you, that super hit and killed
This is such a good way of putting this, thank you!
I don't know man, the FGC has proven to be pretty good about bitching about the same thing for years on end.
I don't think that's true at all. You're exaggerating.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I must head to twitter to argue about whether Five Guys or In n Out is better for the fourth time this year.
@@warpticon just this year?
Ppl still complain about shotos lol, it’s been like at least 20 years
Us nerds do this about EVERYTHING
Magic the gathering
Fighting games
Mmos
Etc
That is just what humans do.
What do you mean the square piece doesn't fit in the round hole, the pieces are supposed to fit inside the holes
But what if it was a round peg with the collision of a square one?
@@CarbonRollerCaco then the laws of physics are right and something about your perception incorrect.
@@coldbacon4869 Or maybe it's a mirage.
but you can put the triangle in the square hole, then the half circle in the square hole, then the sphere in the sauare hole
The final stage of grief: acceptance
The most elusive of stages.
There are some things in Melee that straight up don't work as designed. Like Yoshi's dash grab moving his head in the Z AXIS in a 2D game, making it whiff against skinny opponents. But with that said yoshi mains just gotta accept that dash grab will probably whiff against shiek so don't use it. I mean yoshi has a parry due to an exploit in his shielding animation that makes him invincible for a few frames, but you bet your ass that parry was a hard read despite it not being designed to be used that way.
Yeah, I feel similar about Falco's up air. Sometimes the second hit just doesn't send them anywhere, I don't know if some wonky hitbox doesn't have knock back or what. It's like rolling a dice where 1-5 either extends a combo or kills, roll a 6 and your opponent just goes nowhere and you get punished. I do get his point though. Like Roy's up smash is a dumb ass move that just does nothing most of the time, probably wasn't intended, but probably just dont up smash knowing it won't work.
This. This is the attitude you should have. You can say yeah this move doesn't work or function, but then you should know not to use it
@@0Enigmatic0 That's the nightmare scenario: moves only SOMETIMES working in situations where they're appealing for no clear reason. Especially when they're the BEST option. And your example is particularly bad because sometimes it's supposed to continue a combo in an INSANELY fast and chaotic game, so there's no feasible way you can completely prepare for it to botch.
@@0Enigmatic0 im a falxo main for years, your up air spacing is just poor, gotta get better at spacing and timing
@@0Enigmatic0 Sounds like phantom upair, which means your spacing is off by a few pixels. Phantom hits are a stupid mechanic in melee tbh.
Maybe the real mindgame is the version of the game that I’m playing by myself in my own head.
If only we could make reality rollback to run that version instead.
Honestly in my experience when melee players say “this move doesn’t work/its broken” they don’t usually mean “man I keep trying to use this move in situations I think it should work and it doesn’t” they usually just mean “don’t use this move, it sucks and is almost never worth it” lol.
"Also it might actually make something in the game literally break"
Melee is different because the game is actually broken, Yoshi's grab does not work the way it's supposed too, but it's hitbox has z axis offset in a 2d game, so it just misses.
I assume he's talking about the ultimate community bc it seems like melee players are pretty content with the game the way it is given they've been playing it for 20 years now
Joey McMuffin Yeah but Sajam’s talk still applies, you should know that going in and understand that the grab wont work in a lot of spots lol. But I understand what you mean, its easier in that case to understand the difference between developer intent and mistake. But the same thing about “well okay dont use it then” still applies. The inconsistency with that move is annoying tho lol.
@@reisjames1 Oh yeah, Im just perpetually angry at Melee.
THIS is EXACTLY what I tell people about games like Sekiro and Bloodborne. These games are not that hard. You simply have to stop playing the way you are and engage with the game on its terms.
Yeah. When I looked up some tips for a boss in Elden Ring everyone was just complaining about it. Maybe it was kinda bullshit, but eventually, by actually trying to approach the game as it was, I found pretty consistent answers for everything it was doing and beat it.
Unless it's invaders.
As someone who plays samus in melee im so used to just accepting how the game works. Forward air, up air, and upsmash dont connect like how most multihit attacks dont connect in melee, but theres different, albeit more niche applications for those moves outside of their *apparent* use of how youd expect them to work (like how they work in ultimate)
Except upsmash never use that move.
its amazing how many of these perfectly vanilla reasonable ass takes seem so ground breaking
Its because its not. Hes not really giving a take more than stating a problem is there, and telling people to not complain about falling for the problem. Its a strange non-argument, like if someone keeps telling you "the sky is cloudy" when you are trying to figure out if its raining or snowing. Like we know man, thats why the topic came up.
All I got from this video is "Play Sol"
“If a move doesn’t work don’t use it.”
That explains why ZSS runs away all the time.
As a zss main.. damn
See this is the exact scenario that makes me not agree with him completely. Because sometimes her multihits work and other times opponent falls out. This randomness is it being broken and I feel like if it's random the move works or doesn't nullifies the whole "Oh you should know the move doesn't work like that" part, because yeah it does, just not every time
That "Antiair with a sweep" was perfect analogy to explain that, it all comes down to, what ever move Cesium used in that situation, is simply a wrong move in that situation.
Haha, I was playing Garou the other day
"He's gonna jump"
*Uses Anti air super(raging storm)*
Turns out the anti air has too long startup to punish a jump, if you input before the jump, you SPECIFICALLY need either a BIG overhead jump, or a certain angle/whiff/block special
I DID read that wrong, honestly, I shoulda went for down+C, (anti air, bit girthier range than you think, but upward oriented)
Rock himself has 6 Anti air moves
And they're all for something different
Universal AA has horizontal range, good on ground, on hit converts to projectile or on ground hit/block, you can go for the charge moves to catch them off guard
Down C has up right angle(if they're air normalling you'll likely trade unless a short hop)
Charge Down -> up A has weak hits ,but quick ,doesn't stay in air as long to get punished as C
Charge Down-> up C will do good damage, and covers a few options, but is WAY negative, it's basically a 'super me now' button BUT if you get a hit, it's great
And the one I was trynna use was raging storm (double quarter circle forward a/c)
A version does less damage I THINK it's quicker though, I can't check right now
C version costs 2 bars and can be delayed if you wanna catch someone off guard, and deals Heavy damage, this is what I tried, thought it'd work on a jump read, but I think specials are the only thing negative enough to get this for sure (unless they just guard, nothing you can do bout that)
And that's not all, if you're holding down + back, you're crouch blocking with 6 AAs , and can easy qcf to use either projectile or his high/low melee counter (acts wierd on multi hit though) so if you can read well, you get a ton of options
Bro I knew they were going to do paper, so I did rock, and I somehow lost! Why does paper beat rock?? Paper is hella flimsy and fragile compared to the sturdy, dependable rock -- rock should always bust right through paper, doesn't make any sense
I am a fan of the ole “it’s so stupid that this is the way that it is”
NRS players will cry about their game SO MUCH but never try any other games. When I get tired of what I consider poor design by NRS, I just play something else
What I find funny is that NRS is actually pretty good at fixing game relative to other devs.
I really tried to concentrate on the video, but all I could think about is how Sajam's hair is starting to grow in to Guile's ...
i fully agree, but i'll still get mad when i get the wrong standing normal in SF4 because "proximity" is *very* relative
One day I switched to Oni because of this.
Didn't work out tho.
Proximity normals and proximity one button grabs kill me
i completely forgot those existed, what a weird thing
I miss the proximity normals...gave you more variety. and if it helps you at all, your proximity is your throw range. if you're in throw range(and low enough to the ground) that's the normal you'll get. thinking about it like that works for me.
@@soupyswan5706 i actually loved that every character had such a varied "kit", and if i'm being honest most fuck-ups are on me. I don't really have that problem on the ground, I just wish dedicated AA buttons and the close/far variation were separated
90% of NRS players should listen to this message
The problem with smash is that it doesn’t fit your criteria
9x out 10 when an up air double hit is supposed to kill and it doesn’t because 1/10 times they fall out that’s a broken move that doesn’t work as intended
ie, Falco up smash in ultimate (especially for the year and a half before the patch tweak where it was more 60-40 chance to actually work as intended)
This is mostly due to the way hit boxes work with the games physics system, and it will probably never be perfect with any multi-hit moves, but some are wayyyy worse than others
But I agree with the overall sentiment
When the output is consistent you shouldn’t try to bend it to whatever you want it to be 100%
Thank you for also mentioning falco up smash lmao. All throughout this video i kept thinking "Larry Lurr would have something to say about this"
In ult multihits are such an issue. 80+ character weights/air mobility/gravity and a million values for drift/positioning=a disaster for multihit moves with set knockback. On a programming level it is probably 100% consistent, but it is unpredictable at a human level. You can make an educated guess, but sometimes the shit just doesn't work. This isn't to be confused with intended mechanics like DI or SDI (ex Ken's dp), where multihits that can be reliably manipulated to not work. Falco up smash is a good example of a move that is unpredictable, which is worse than just not working, because sometimes it DOES work.
"Adapt or die" is a great mentality as a player but don't stop people from asking for developer change
In older games, moves which don't "fully connect" based on factors out of either players control, software lag if stuff is on screen, literal RNG, and moves that straight up crash the game.
We all know glitches and bad design is worth dropping an entire game over
Of course, but your criticism needs to be valid first and foremost. Is Kitana's B2 actually an anti-air? No. Does she have other anti-air options? Probably. Considering it's apparently a fantastic mid, maybe you should just be content with the fact that it's unable to combo as an anti-air because that's not the intended purpose. Besides, you can always ask if it's even an intended use for the move.
Only tangentally related but this is why frame data/ info in general is super valuable for fighting games. By having the tools to teach ourselves exactly how our characters work, we can move away from "I think this move works this way" to "I *know" this move works this way."
You need to adapt your play to the mechanics of the game, but thats only possible when you're actually able to learn how the game works.
Also 6:24 Sajam has clearly been watching some Aris vids lmao
I can attest that both the FGC as well as Smash players are indeed notoriously guilty of this.
As a Kitana player, I've been having issues with this string for forever. I have never once thought to go complain to devs on Twitter about it.
Sometimes I feel like playing our fighting game characters in their own battle stages are like projections of our inner most deepest insecurities and traumas as human beings.
Man screams at clouds about FGC complaining that their waifu doesn't have a 1 button answer to everything in the game.
They're complaining because the move or system is designed in a way that feels random and unsatisfying. If my move failed to create a jail because you had 1 frame to hold up and now I'm DEAD for it sure it might've been the wrong decision however you'll seldom be faced with a situation where it was the right decision. In a game like mk11 where you're already short on options and command a small list of moves this can feel very limiting. Sajam is obviously right that in order to win you need to adapt and accept reality. Unfortunately the reality you're accepting is that the game is designed in a way that's not very fun to play.
It's almost like NRS fighters are bad or something
On the other hand, relinquishing responsibility in a game can be really liberating! There’s some games I suck at because I don’t want to practice and I accept that. If I lose, I know exactly why and I enjoy myself just fine.
This video title is as long as an anime light novel title.
You can accept how it is and disagree with it at the same time
telling the internet to accept reality. bold move.
This is great. I agree. I'd like to hear the version that makes me accept cursed superdash right tf now though.
Every game has garbage. Accept the trash, lol.
@@Pandaman64 well you don’t have to accept it lol just get used to it
@@SuperKushalaDaora I do not understand the difference. You must accept to get used to something, no?
Don’t contest the superdash, it’s fine to block and then call a big beam assist afterwards to lock them down.
Make them play your game
@@Jgt612 he's probably talking about when superdash crosses you up in a bullshit way so it's incredibly difficult to block
Thought this was getting into the idea of robbery, that'll teach me to actually wait and listen lol
I super agree though. It is a bit weird to complain about something "not working" and then doing it anyway. The wall isn't gonna break no matter how hard you head hurt it, you gotta accept that. I tend to mutter something like "game said I was wrong" whenever situations like that happen and try to adjust
Someone needs to share this with DSP and LTG.
But yea sometimes you just press the button too early or too late.
Yeah but ltg figuring that out would literally shutdown numerous UA-cam channels.
@@Brass_Heathen lol you got a point there
@@Brass_Heathen LOL true,people be thriving from that man's salt.
I can definitely fall into this trap sometimes when learning new characters. SFV for me has been one of the biggest cases of it since I started playing in the last few months, but I think that also comes down to the games speed honestly. In the time it takes my brain to realize I lost a "right" read it's already time to start making reads again which is kind of overloading personally.
Something like MK11 is slow and confirmable enough that it's more realistic just staggering a single button and then confirming into what you need if they jump. I play Joker in MK11 and was salty when learning him how heavy you get punished for rollouts/falls on many strings that anti-air, but the character's fucking nuts and deserves to be punished hard for his mistakes, and the dev's rewarding you for playing a safer more calculated plan is actually very fun and rewarding opposed to just letting all of my strings rock. You might not get your optimal combo, but if you hedge your bets with a F1 stagger as Joker you get your oki back at the worst which is a good deal.
On the other side, I've wondered recently if these "right but wrong" moments are part of what pushes fighting games from popularity. I thought back to league of legends (I played a long time ago even hitting challenger), and how the abilities, movement, and skills interact with other players; it's very consistent and you're very often right when you're right. Correct reads in league (for example a good flash predict, or a good zed/shaco ult for invulnerability) seemed to be less variable than a lot of fighting games, and so it's unsurprising to me that it's so much more popular. It's almost like loss aversion theory, the feeling of getting punished when "right" is so painful you'd rather play a game which validates you being right.
Sometimes the answer is "this move is worthless dumpster juice with zero applications and I have to move on"
usually its the really cool one that made you interested in the first place
This is why you can never EVER FULLY rely on legacy knowledge. They translate universally up to a certain point, and then you have to learn and play within that specific fighting game's boundaries. If a move doesn't work for a certain situation, then you need to stop and readjust your strategy. You will just get punished for doing it. Continuing to do so expecting something different every time will just toss you into the textbook definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a result that is what you anticipated versus what actually happened.
You’re like a god damned philosopher or something, Sajam.
I think the heart of the issue is that a lot of FG players interpret "this move is bad" or "this move is niche" as "this move doesn't work like it's supposed to" when... More often than not, it is working as intended. Obviously there are some edge cases where moves are, in a literal sense, broken, like a lot of old smash multi hits that randomly dropped the opponent, but that shit is rare in modern games gets fixed soon. If a move is shit it's most likely shit by design. You could argue if it should or shouldn't be shit balancing wise, but you just have to accept the reality that it is.
Can't believe I'm seeing this year's later when mk11 got me into the fgc and so many complaints like this have defined how I see these games.
People can hate things like breakaway, by all means we certainly get opinions! But people would say 'I get punished for landing a hit, because if they break at this point in this combo I get punished'... Well do a different combo? Or, hate breakaway enough not to play the game. I get both. I don't get seeing the opponent has the meter to breakaway, doing the risky move, and then getting mad at the game when they use breakaway.
The only positive is it showed me many ways not to look at these games if I going to care to put this much effort in. Play the game on its terms, it's for the best.
Sajam the vigilante, bringing rollback to games that the devs don't even want.
Turnabout Sajam hit us with the big finger
Having this conversation with melee players is a nightmare
I assumed it would be more of a Smash Ultimate discussion since they are still subject to patches where the Melee scene decided on universal controller fix, rule changes and the specific version of the game to play.
I'm sure some people are annoyed at the bizarre behaviour of moves which were one character of code away from being slightly useable (Luigi dash attack was cursed in Smash 64 as well IIRC) but after over a decade, people accept how things work in general as long as it isn't a trashfire. Same goes for other cases like Third Strike or Super Turbo.
@Noah Whelan I guess the solution would be adding the autolink properties but that runs the risk of making things too homogenous even if it makes things "work".
DI and SDI are always going to be part of the picture as well as odd hurtboxes. Last I remember, Pit has unremarkable hitboxes but not strange ones.
I think, most of the time, when Smash players multi-hit moves are just jank because DI + whatever momentum. Like I Pit nair and the big ass donkey kong just falls out from the center like! !!!!
You're right bro. It's normal to complain but it won't make you better or the game more fun.
While I don't disagree with the premise I think it's also important to tie the mindset back into how people learn how to play fighting games, and remind everybody why we need better tutorials.
I learned everything I know about fighting games from friends or UA-cam videos, and what they taught me they kept simple. You find a move that anti-airs and you stick to that while you're learning how to play. You find something effective on the ground and you stick to that while you figure out what you're doing. This lets you get into the game and start to figure out how it flows before committing to learning the whole thing. The downside to this strategy is that it can put you on crutches, with muscle memory baked in for moves that might not be the best in every situation. It can also "teach" you that moves that catch people in the air are "anti-airs" or that optimal offense requires pressure from your "best" string at every range it's available. It's more difficult to teach someone that sometimes moves or strings are balanced around weird situations where somebody might drop out of a combo at awkward heights or ranges, or which might only provide optimal outcomes in incredibly niche sets of circumstances. When a player who doesn't understand the design philosophy and they run into something that doesn't fit into their tutorial box they can feel cheated, like the game is doing something they were never told to expect, or that the game shouldn't be doing it.
I'm not saying those people are right, and I'm not saying it's a healthy mindset, but I am providing just a little bit of defense for people who feel 'wronged' when they run into game balance or mechanics that don't fit into the boxes they understand. Sometimes you can't even conceptualize that somebody balanced a mechanic in such a strangely specific way that it can appear to be successful and still result in failure on a mechanical level.
You’re asking fighting game players to take responsibility and be accountable? How foolish of you Sajam...
One of my favorite quotes from the Venture Bros i think encapsulates this decently well, "That wasn't us it was the OSI. If I throw this pen at you are you going to be mad at me, or have a little fist fight with the pen?" Hunter Gathers. Good show, good work Sajam.
Now of course you're correct on this statement, I'll start with that. You're totally correct in that between who desires a move to work a specific way, between the player and the game, the game is completely correct 100% of the time, Just cause yeah that's how it works. THE ONLY TIME this statement has contention is when the DEVELOPER, CREATOR OF THE GAME disagrees with THE GAME on how the game should work, and maybe even the PLAYER as well.
As a separate statement to that though, Lets talk about Waldstein's only DP. shoruken forward C as wald is a 100 meter invuln move used as his only reversal outside of the universal Veil off (which is hard to use and literally does no damage) Now because of this, if I see my opponent Jump at me and press a button way too early for a safe Jump, and I DP that, I should hit them. The game agrees, the dev agrees and I agree. The problem is, Wald stops being invuln on the first frame a hitbox comes out, meaning I can instead trade and lose the situation despite being entirely correct and everyone agreeing on what should happen.
Who do you think is wrong? Is the move not a DP then? Is it Just inconsistent? I'm curious to hear your answer if you'll give one.
@Halcyon Days Woah backoff dude I'm Just raising a question. I appreciate the answer nonetheless. There is still some contention however, it's not that clear cut you see. It is still invulnerable, and the only way I can know it gets stuffed there is to, in some situations, know the exact frame that my opponent pressed their button, and exactly how long it's active for.
This is simply unreasonable, especially considering this move is still my only option out of this scenario. You understand now? I understand that I am in complete control of the character and that whatever happens is the result of my actions, but when I use the move to invuln my opponent and still lose due to not knowing exactly how active my opponents move is, can you really consider that to be my fault?
Love the content bro. It's definitely helped make 2020 a little better.
I I TECHED THAT THROW DAMMIT.
The thing with smash players is I think they're right that the moves aren't working as intended considering smash ultimate keeps getting patches that tries fixing moves properties to be more consistent such as people falling out of multi hits and such
heard this recently; "When the only tool in your bag is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail". Gotta learn how to use ALL your tools
Nice Futurama reference btw.
There are literally broken moves in Ssbm like Link's Neutral air. The move doesn't end correctly so the hitbox stays on link's leg until he lands or does another move. This is definitely unintended and looking into the code proves this as most moves have a flag that dictates when hitboxes appear and disappear but link's Nair does not have the disappear flag. That being said:
It's consistent and always a treat to see used in a real match lol.
And honestly some moves I think can be interesting and bad like Juri's overhead in SFV. It's f.mk for her overhead and it's +0 on hit but since grabs in SFV are only 1 frame startup this means that I as Juri can grab the opponent after hitting my overhead. This mixup really confuses a lot of players and I love it because once they catch on I mixup HK since it puts Juri in the air and avoids grabs.
I was playing this game and knew my opponent would jump, then they jump and I hit my sweep and it missed. But I had the read, why did it missed?
I think part of the reason a lot of Smash fans get annoyed is that a lot of moves we claim "don't work" are multihits that sometimes work. Smash has a ton of little factors that can change if a multihit connects (your drift, your oppenents drift, rage, your oppenent's percent, hurtbox shifting, ect) that make it so it's not always possible to tell why it didn't connect, at least not in the moment.
I personally don't like to dwell on it personally, but I can see why someone would be annoyed that their Nair connects against airborn opponents 90% of the time and gets them punished 10% of the time because of factors they can't always predict.
I can agree with that, but the big issue with Kitana's B231 is that it IS Kitana's best mid, and we usually use that to meaty people. Meaties are extremely inconsistent in MK11, so people JUMP on wakeup all the time. And then B2 hits the opponent but the rest doesn't and then you get punished and then opponent has Fatal Blow and he presses two buttons to completely turn the game around. That's what feels like robbery.
This triggered my MK11 PTSD lol.
Spawn as a projectile parry where he goes into the parry stance and when he absorbs a projectile he lunges and grabs the opponent, welp most characters recover so fast from throwing projectiles they can just block before your lunge reaches.
And my exact line was ''this move dosn't do what it's designed to do this is bullshit''
If you didn't know about something then you're allowed one (1) "oh that's kinda dumb how it works that way" card, but if you remember it happening and keep on doing it, it's definitely your fault.
every sajam talk goes something like:
"you're god-fucking-stupid, because x, y and z but you can and will be a smart chad so long as you accept and try w"
So much truth, and so clearly expressed. Great video.
Bardock LL is always the right decision. Rip out of the stratosphere? Hit behind me head? Full combo into soft oki? All fully intended.
"Just pick a top tier"
You are oversimplifying the topic. Sometimes moves are meant to have a specific function, however they might behave in unintended or inconsistent ways.
First of all, how do we determine whether a move is "supposed" to do something or not? Well, let's assume we're playing a game with a homogenous cast like DBFZ, where the same inputs will result in a pool of moves with similar properties across the cast.
Now let's pick a move, like 2H. By testing it out with a bunch of characters we understand the move is invincible against ariborne opponents and that it will always beat a core game mechanic, which is super dash.
So I think it's pretty safe to assume the move's purpose: it's an anti-air by design. And it's specifically the only answer to super dash after testing other moves as well.
So far so good. But hey, we haven't tested Nappa's 2H yet. Let's try that.
Well, it turns out that his 2H will reliably whiff when a small character tries to super dash at him. Not only that, but he will get punished because of the long recovery.
Now, of course I won't try to use it against small characters from now on, since I know it's a really bad idea. However, by comparing the move with the rest of the cast's version we know it's something that's not supposed to happen. In fact Nappa's 2H got patched and received an increased hitbox later on. It will now work on everyone, as intended.
Here's the thing: when people say they got robbed for using a move, they are not denying reality as you might think. What they're trying to say is this: "sup devs, this thing is dumb and it makes no sense, please change it"
Smash is kind of a special case because multihit moves for a lot of characters just drop unexpectedly. Pre-Patch Falco was a huge example. His upsmash had no low hit box as if to scream at the player to use it as an anti air, but in so many cases the second hit of the move just would whiff aerial opponents. Then there’s pre-patch Ken shoryu which always dropped, Bayo’s up tilt, Falco’s throws, Falco’s nair... point being moves in smash had very clear intentions, and yet failed to actually work and the devs patched those moves to make them work after enough complaining.
Has Samus' up-smash ever worked properly, in any game? it's like the poster child for "move that just doesn't work sometimes"
A sweep that anti-airs? Like a low hitting move that also hits aerial opponents?
To be fair I’m pretty sure meta knight dimension cape isn’t “supposed” to let you disappear forever
I agree for the most part but the way some moves work in smash, especially with the context of how many times they've tried to fix flurry jabs in the patches, is pretty frustrating.
The problem in smash is that people deadass fall out of moves while they are happening but only occasionally
Because programming multihit hitboxes to work with characters that move around this much and do them in different positions is hard (it's not actually hard but nintendo made their bag and people still play the game with hitboxes that "don't work").
They also added the fact that you can't move through one another in ult. So you deadass might miss a move that hits.
Because the game's collision detection is too strong. And pushed the opponent away from your hitbox.... for being too close...
This and multiple aerials that characters sometimes just fall out of due to a lack of hitboxes/bad linking stats
I love when idiots in the chat say dumb shit and Sajam just kills them for it. Absolutely brutal. 10/10
“So who’s correct? THE FUCKING GAME!”
Rookie Ken players are lowkey geniuses and always make the perfect read.
Unfortunately Capcom just didn't design heavy/EX shoryu properly so it can't be used as an answer for all those godlike reads.
-2 into DP is the best strat.
Online Ken's are lowkey the most powerful players on cfn
The best example I can give for smash is pre buff Captain Falcon. Up smash only combos into the 2nd hit half the time (even with no sdi) and raptor boost would whiff on straight up stationary opponents at times. Those are moves that were broken but since fixed.
"if you want to anti-air with a sweep just play sol..." hahaha best advice ever
Feels like sometimes being a dev that is so communicative and willing to change for its players incites people to believe they can over-ask for what they think they want, rather than learning how to adapt and revolutionize.
The devs at Iron Galaxy talk about this in the KI documentary. Balancing how you interact with feedback is almost as tough as balancing the actual game.
@Halcyon Days Agreed, well worth the watch for even a filthy casual like myself :D
I've had conversations like this with high/top level players in my game. Knowing every single optimal punish for every single read you could make is a waste of time. You eventually get to a point where you are comfortable enough with your character's kit and how situations play out that you can start punishing habits with literally anything. No one gives a fuck if your move doesn't anti air the way you want to when you would still just as easily lose to a top player who was only using their normals
the boys I play with have a saying: "Game Disagrees". Anytime someone says something like "oh I think that should have hit" or "that shouldn't work there" or are otherwise johning in the way you describe we just say Game Disagrees.
Love those guys but man they are not fun people to play Mario Party with.
Sajam just tells it how it is. Which is also what these people need to play the game as.
Yeah I feel like there are often complaints about, say, multi hits not connecting, at least coming from playing platform fighters way more. But oftentimes it's more an issue of spacing than the move simply not working. Like in Rivals of Aether, one character, Forsburn, has strong attacks where he swings his cape, and then thrusts his dagger. But if you don't space the cape right, it will not connect into the dagger no matter how you slice it. And that's just one example, so yeah I 100 percent agree.
Who's correct? The fucking game. New quote imma use
Accepting responsibility is a sign that you’re going to improve at an accelerated rate compared to people that keep fucking up and keep avoiding responsibility
The thing that I think people need to get used to is that a read comes in two parts. There's recognising the move and then there's reacting with the correct response. I think a lot of people, myself included, can do the first part, they can see the move coming, but they haven't labbed enough to know the correct response, so they go with their gut. When their instinct is wrong, they either make note of this thing they need to learn or decide that they were Right Actually because they knew what they were reacting to and say the move they used is broken.
I'm ten months late but this is the exact kind of advice I need to overcome my main hurtles in Strive rn. Hopefully I can keep it in mind next time I boot up!
In conclusion: it just be like that sometimes
Sajam is 100% right. I was playing Ciel vs Saber in Melty Blood and could not for the life of me figure out an answer to her Charge j.C. My opponent goes "just stuff her while she's charging," which worked less than 10% of the time because Ciel can't reach Saber at double jump height reactively before the Armor on j.C activates. I tried grounded 3C which has head-inulin properties but it either came out too slow or just clanked on Saber's armor before I got hit anyways. Sometimes 3C would just outright whiff due to Ciel stepping forward like SSJ4 Gogeta's 2H. At the end, I figured out just Shield punishing the charged j.C was my best answer and playing RPS after. In a situation where my character had no buttons/tools to contest the move, I had to just understand that I have to just either block or rely on system tools regardless of how bad the situation feels.
I think that once you realise this, you are getting close to become a better player.
The ONLY way someone could feasibly make this argument is if the move they’re saying is broken does not actually work like intended. Say like a DP that is intended to be used as an invincible reversal, but is missing the i-frames needed. That’s a move that is actually broken. Gbvs Beelzebub’s DP has active I-frames later than most DPs and has less horizontal range than everyone else’s DP. I hate that, but that’s an intended choice by the devs.
Even then, if you keep trying to reversal with it that's your fault bud. It sucks but that's just the way it is. You can complain about it, but doing it over and over again won't magically make it work the way you want so try a different option, or in bubs' case just block like your life depends on it
What's frustrating for me is trying to understand the devs logic behind some moves. Since you brought up GBVS, Narmayas' Setsuna and Transient always baffled me.
Like why is L Setsuna so punishable on block even when you hit with the tip of the fireball/poke (pokeball)?
Or why does M Transient expand her hitbox so that all an opponent needs to do to stuff her crossup attempt is jab, when Lancelot can dash in almost any situation with impunity?
She can still be fun to play but man it's frustrating sometimes.
Some moves genuinely do not work as intended or are a little weaker than they ought to be at a specific purpose. The key to that kind of stuff is based on complaining hard enough and bringing awareness to get devs to notice. That said, I completely agree with statement of until that patch which may or may not come out, you are stuck with what you have. If you're options for x situation feels so bad that its intolerable, then its time to switch characters bro.
Look at the bottom tier characters in Melee. That's what I think about when moves don't work. One of Kirby's throws, I think it's back or forward, doesn't work.
Pretty sure it's both lol
I knew the Ky main was going to use Heavy Shockblast after knocking me over, but that doesn’t mean that I outplayed him.
Thats why people like melee, it has creative combos that are more dynamic than other fighting games and allow players' personalities to be expressed greatly
Does this apply to Laust’s MixMixMix?
Another good example of this is Kunoichi's Kunai throws (non-mana} in DNF. Her standard Kunai are pretty good for the following, spacing, counter zoning, and if you have white health you can use the grounded version (6S) you can converge and get some from full screen. What's the problem with it at this time.....the jumping version is negative on hit. I can throw it out jumping forward and land in front of my opponent get ready for to start pressure then die instead. The grounded Kunai throw is apparently active to the point if you use it to end a block string and misspace it . You won't just get a punish you'll get counter hit instead. Its a good move but these draw backs lead to poor situations if you don't keep these things in mind.