Interesting fact. When a generator is swirched on before transferring power it is perfectly synchronised with the grid. National Grid became national in the thirties and has not failed since. There are no generators from those days but the 50 hz signal which started at the very beginning is still going, being passed on like a baton in a relay race where many of the team have passed away and most of the team have yet to be born. It cpuld go on to the end of the world. I find that sort of romantic.
National grid also defeated the Nazis. The 50 Hz frequency was used to synchronise the chain home radar stations enabling them all to work in a coronated way. No radar, no RAF advantage. Bye bye Britain and then the world.
National in England and Wales. In Scotland the grid is owned by Scottish Power Energy Networks in the south and SSE Networks in the north. We're already over 100%renewable energy provision here so storage is the next thing to solve.
The profit motive of the Nation Grid is at odds with its mission to transition to a network powered by a distributed energy supply from intermittent renewables. This is why many of us who live remote rural area cannot get a G99 generation application past our DNOs (also the National Grid in our area) - the infrastructure is simply not up to it. When there is a clear choice between paying investors a dividend or replacing decades old electricity cables, it comes as no surprise to any of us that the former always wins.
You may want to do some research before you listen to the lefty views of some people. Shareholders stumped up £7 billion in new investment cash for the grid. So you think they should do this for charity? It off the goodness of their hearts? If so you may want to go back to sleep and keep dreaming because that’s not how anywhere in the world works. National grid can raise this money because of private finance.
@@davideyres955 Is this the same sort of private finance we sold our water to? The same in which over 20 billion has been paid in dividends since it was privatised? That worked out well didn't it. Carry on, I see no issues 🤔🤣
@@clivepierce1816 if they are anything like the water companies they raise investment to pay out bonuses and high dividends on shares. Saying that there was replacement of transmission lines in Cumbria a few years ago.
It’s not just like moving a fly lead from one patch panel to another! The biggest issue is getting connections to these new wind farms, planning applications delay everything!
They have stated that they want to move to micro grids, this would mean, something like adding batteries next to the new solar farm so that itthey would have no need to upgrade the supply line as the batteries could send all day the lower line level whilst storing anything in excess during the day. I would hope that this means we would be able to get as much storage as we want in our homes. This also then acts as more grid storage for them. Something needs to be done to get all of these works connected efficiently. The only certain thing to me is that we will move to renewables and that pace is increasing as costs are falling for this, where the olf fossil fuel ones will just become more and more expensive.
Totally agree Jay, let's add storage to every house(powerwall size about 13kWh) then plug our EVs to the grid with V2G, an average of maybe 30kWh allocated and there are 30 million houses, we become our own grid.
The business won't own a nuclear power station they will just sign a contract will a nuclear power supplier for energy at a certain price point for a certain amount of time and availability. The energy supplier will then build the power station as near as possible to where the client needs it and connet it up to their data centre. Google/Amazon/Microsoft/Etc will not own or manage the nuclear power stations, they will just get the power directly from them not needing to take any power from the grid.
~12:00 Your grid, our (US) grid, all the grids, really do need a lot of upgrading, right down to the foundations. That's not just because of increasing use of renewable energy. Modernization is an ongoing process. No crash program is needed (although, of course, some acceleration is needed in some places). Equipment is always in need of replacement, as it wears out or becomes out of date. Use those events to update those items that need it.
17 days of storage for average UK household energy use is around 5 billion kwh of battery capacity.I haven't tried to work out the physical size of those batteries but it certainly seems like it would be unfathomable large.
Battery storage is only feasible for short term storage, longer term such as these 17 days etc there are far cheaper ways like CAES, etc even if less efficient but you can store masses of energy long term for days/months or even years. Much of things like compressed air storage systems scale very well because you have the one generator and store the air many times underground in old mines etc and the limit of what you can store is only limited by the space available and this can be stored forever providing there are no air leaks and if there is a leak then the only emission is regular old air There are plenty of other ways to store energy long term its just some are cheaper than others, you hear a lot about gravity, etc but for that you need something very heavy and that generally comes at a high cost.
@@keithbennett1656 Basically it's just compressed air, you compress regular old air and to get the energy back use that compressed air to turn a turbine so like a traditional generator just using compressed air instead of steam. As I say the main benefit is long term, you can compress and store air for as long as needed, it's cheap and the more you store it the cheaper it gets as it just needs more space that can hold the pressure and doesn't leak. It's very economical for very long term storage and well suited to storing excess peak summer for use during winter or emergencies etc and can use the vast amount of space we have already underground from old mines etc as a store. And as I mentioned any leaks are harmless as it's just leaking the same old regulator air we breathe.
This will go up a lot when we all use heat pumps, which must happen. 10kw of heat for most of the day is not unusual (compare it with gas) in the depths of winter and that requires around 3kw of electrical input. Multiply that by 20 million homes and that is 60GW and completely dwarfs the EV charging requirement. Now calculate the storage required when there is a fortnight of flat calm in the depths of winter. Current efforts to handle this are woefully inadequate and just scratching the surface.
There are actually two 'grids' in the UK - The 'National' Grid (which is currently undergoing a 40 -50 Billion pound upgrade) and the local 'Distribution' grids (which takes power from substations to your home). It's the Distribution Grids which are the problem, it was recently reported that if (when) everybody has an EV /heat pump/ solar panels/a personal power (battery) storage system, the Local Grids would be incapable of carrying the requisite loadings. To upgrade the Local grids it was stated it would take 25 -30 years and cost upwards of 300 Billion which would have to be funded by a surcharge on bills.
We had this issue by us. BP Pulse were going to install a charger on a local car park, they found out that the local substation didn't have capacity and that the cost to upgrade wasn't financially viable. I think a lot of people forget about this part of the distribution system.
The UK, like California mentioned in the video, generates more electrical energy from renewables than fossil-fuels today. The grid themselves have stated hey are on track to be carbon neutral, meaning mainly renewable and low carbon (biomass etc) with offsetting, by 2035 and fully Net Zero by 2050. The later being the government/OFGEMs goal and 2035 the grids own initiative. The UKs battery capacity was 5GW up to the end of last year, another 4GW this year, and 95GW (confirmed pipeline) by 2030. The National Grid themselves have flagged the connection issue, have ramped up their own resources to meet demand but face a slow regulation system in getting connections approved. Basically everyone generators, storage, consumers and the grids are shouting for change - lets hope the government listens and funds such it the forthcoming budget.
With respect, I think you are missing the bigger point Dave, if the gov incentivises EV widespread across the UK, like Norway did, punish the ICE drivers (inc me) then the country will have battery storage on wheels. Then manage supply/demand with agile tariffs so people charge when the renewables are generating, then demand will plummet when generation is low. Nuclear, current hydro/battery storage, biomass, some gas power, and some vehicle to grid will do the rest. They havent got the balls to stand up to the fossil fuel industry and voters at the speed required.
A glaringly obvious way to help us get more renewable energy and storage without costing the government a penny, would be to legislate that all new builds, domestic and commercial must have say a minimum of 80% of need matched by solar and battery storage for each build. There are newer types of cables that carry considerably more power than much of the installed grid. I believe the National Grid are already installing these as it requires no new pylons or planning permission. Another part of the solution will be geothermal and tidal. This won't reach the levels of solar and wind but it will give a modest part of our supply a better level of predictability.
Substations still and issue. Also, wages of young earners are so far behind house prices as to be laughable. Adding another 10k to an already unobtainable price will hurt on help. Finally, we're only a few years away from the UK stopping paying for exported solar energy, and charging those who do so, like Australia
@@stuartburns8657 - and yet that 10k spent on solar for a house add to it's value when sold and make the property more attractive to sell on, whilst the cost is also spread over the term of the mortgage. Whether the UK adopts export charging, which is fairly unique to Austrialia power network setup and political system, is not a given. The UK could wel equally seek for battery power to be distributed with the home's forming one core source. The National Grid (SSEN in Scotland) are upgrading sub-stations in areas with projected issues as part of their existing £29 billion investment plan, as well as resolving long term grid congestion points.
@@GruffSillyGoat We are already seeing the dreaded over generation duck curve, trust me it's only a couple of years away. For the record I own a large PV array and home battery, but I wouldn't expect it to add value to my house, should I sell. Export rates have recently gone down, whilst import has gone up. Telling you anything? I am generally an advocate of Solar, but in your own time, circumstances and choosing
tbh my take on home solar is size it for you're own needs with storage rather than over sizing it to generate a revenue stream. Of course installers try to sell oversized systems as this generates more profit for them, whilst most owners will say "oh ok if I've got the roof space and it makes money in the long run, go for it".
@@GruffSillyGoat Green initiatives typically start by leading ppl with potential savings / ROI. While we should all be more environmentally conscious, ppl are buying EV for the most part due to saving potential. Same as fleet sales. Now Fleet EV's attract the most benefit BIK, strange how business are adopting them isn't it?
Ok, so here's one for you and I've heard almost nothing on this idea! Most people, in most countries are probably using streamed data in some way, everyday. Whether it be on the many platforms like UA-cam via a mobile, laptop or on their own home TV's, the fact is, they use their data to watch and the broadcaster uses data to create the broadcast. In a world where we are seemingly quite concerned about energy use, why are we able to freely create/watch content/films in 2k,4k/8k??? There is no real need for it! 4k, maybe 8k in cinemas I can understand. I watch on a 15.6 screen laptop with 480p, as it's enough. I do up it sometimes to 720p for live financial charts on YT, but it's only for about 1% of my laptop time. I do not need any higher resolution. I get, the bigger the screen, the higher resolution helps for a good picture, but we now have ridiculously large TV screens, some so big, that 2k is probably the minimum most people would use for clarity! Perhaps Governments ought to set a maximum size of TV screens to 55 - 60 inches, which is very big compared to 30 years ago. I would not say lower than 55 inch, as TV screen can carry a multitude of detail these days. But also limit all TV, laptop, mobile screens to 2k max. This also has to mean limiting broadcasts to 2k max. Then also add proportion, to it; a 40 inch TV screen is very clear, running at 1080p. Even if the broadcast is in 2k, there is still energy saving at the viewers end! There must be millions watching things in a higher wasteful resolution, because nothing stops them or never think about reducing resolution to a level that's still quite clear! You see where I'm going with this by now? For example; a 1hr video made in 4k, with me watching in 4k takes about 5 times more electric to produce and be watched once, than made in 1080p and watched in 1080p. And that one video could be watched 100,000 times!! My main point....a massive saving on electricity currently being used! If you ever see my comments on this channel, I genuinely mean them and am not here to be an arse! I have made a couple of angry comments, but only when I see very biased content. I do drop the odd sarcastic reply to a few over the top comments, but often end it with a 'lol' All I ever try to convey, is that with EV's, we are still running before we can walk!
Imagine a constant source of energy right under our feet. No solar panels, wind turbines or batteries needed! A constant source of cheap, clean energy on tap for millions of years. Unless vested interests kill it off, of course.
Yes and no. The above ground pylons etc amount to less than 4% of the grid. The DNO systems are buried (in roads and pavements) and comprise c. 600,000 km (in the UK) of cabling. These are, in general, fit for "lighting+" duties; design criteria varies from 1 to 2.5kW per home continuous (set by area). Around 2013, the peak domestic draw averaged across the UK, for 1 home, was c. 800W in the evening. Yes, we can support SOME EVs, but not that many. Go to a world with lots of EVs and there is a major problem with the last mile DNO (230V / LV) networks. These are on the whole inadequate. Expect (cough) some roadworks. And major bills. Most these buried cables and c. 1/4 million local transformers likely replacing, to be able to service EVs and HP connecting on 230V networks. NB known to those in power for a long time (earlier than 2012); another can kicked down the road for political reasons.
My total use, including my EV, is 7kwh a day, well within the local grid capabilities, That's if I travelled 40 miles every day, more than the average driver. I don't, but I did the last couple of days.
You seem be to making the common mistake of assuming that everyone will charge their EV from empty every day, and all at the same time. If you drive the average 8000 miles per year, that's only about 5kWh per day. Average that over 24 hours and it's only about 200W per household. Plus it's pretty easy to move it to a time when the house isn't using power for anything else. Don't worry about EVs, worry about how much power we'll need when every house has a heat pump. If your gas bill is about the same cost as your electricity bill, it means you're using 3-5 times as much energy for heating.
@@robinbennett5994 :) Hi Robin! My supervisor and the external assessor who reviewed and granted me a doctorate in this subject didn't spot that one, alas. Oops.... Well, I did simulate many ev types, winter/summer effects (range loss), V2G and local battery stores, no control, remote charging control using two possible algorithms, power system failures, away from home and at home charging and a few more thingies over 6+ years and some tedius 4.9 billion individually tracked and assessed EV trips based on real-world UK data. Problem is that most EVs are at home for limited times, and the Government encourage charging in a narrow time band, as do the energy retailers. This co-ordinated charging undercuts LV ADMD design criteria used by UK DNOs for their local networks (the 230V systems to houses). Problems start from c. 20..40% EV replacement of ICE cars, with the transformers going 1st. Various regions effected by historic build standards for the construction regs. For instatance, ENW and SP built assuming homes need a network able to supply c. 1-1.5kW each simultaneously. Thats what's built, and way inadequate for 100% EV populations let alone HP. Homes on estates wired for overnight storage heating (so entire network can supply 12kW to each of thousands of homes simultaneously) will be OK. That's pretty rare tho.... The first indications of problems came in 2008's DS2030 analysis, confirmed c. 2014-ish with EATL's My Electric Avenue project, a real-world investigation using 700ish Leafs in the UK. I can dig out the docs which presented the findings if you'ld like; my work was to take the red flag "There's a Problem" both raised - and see if it could be fixed using modern jiggery-pokery (computers, smart heuristics etc). Nope. All good fun!
@@robinbennett5994 Well, YT seems to have lost the book I wrote in reply. Suffice to say that following the 2008 DS2030 report for ENA, EATL was commissioned to look into the problems flagged in the 2013-2014 My Electric Avenue trials with 700ish Leafs. There is a problem; EATL concluded that these will effect local networks and be seen from c. 40% EV penetration. My work was to look for a way around those problems, as a topic (EV charging + countermeasures / alleviations) and over c. 4 years not only were the EATL problems encounted again via simulation, those simulations (of 4.9 billion realistic EV trips, based on UK data, many varied scenarious and methods tried) found no effective way to fix the issue. Although, I opined from the data (now with 7.2kW) charging problems start from c. 20% ish EV penetration. The LV transformers (11kV to 400V 3-phase jobbies supplying housing estates) go 1st. There are ways to defer the problem, but not fix it (local charging controllers can help for a bit). Then Heat Pumps arrive. Yes, HP are the worst and are the death-knell. Expect new LV systems (= extensive roadworks). The issue is that the local 230V networks to homes were not built for the energy now demanded. Without energy carrying capacity, it cannot be supplied no matter the clever schemes dreamed up :( however the politicos have been sold the "Smart" snake-oil based on IT and AI. Nope; energy throughput limits trump that.
You make a good point. in future it's likely that EVs will be charged together on low off-peak rates typically offered between 2am and 6am. That could mean each house in a street consuming 7.3kW simultainsuly. To this add the the 10kW heat pumps which cut in automatically on a cold night. The local transformers and cabling will need to be upgraded to deal with that situation. And then there's the cabling and MV transformers feeding the electricity to towns and villages and city suburbs to be upgraded, and so on.
2023 saw the Earth that used to absorb 30% of CO2 not absorb any!!! Earth temps now up to 1.64c above pre industrial!!! Geo Thermal is an exciting addition to Wind/Solar/Storage and needs investing in and can be used at existing Fossil Power Stations and has a very small footprint!! Sub Stations could need renewing to add local capacity and let energy flow "both ways"!!
@@rogerphelps9939 Drilling 6kms you get super heated water anywhere on earth!! The drilling is the expensive bit that needs investment to bring costs down!!
@@simonpannett8810 6km is a long way. A lot more than most oil and gas wells. The fluid that is pumped up is very corrosive so machinery wears out rapidly. Then there is the problem that over extraction will cause tempoeratures to fall. A lot of unsolved problems.
Sorry Dave nearly all your stats are in the USA particularly google and nuclear power story! I don’t believe any uk government, even the Tories, would allow that😮! In the uk power is not generated by the national grid but by the power companies- NG basically balances demand against supply and has no control over the types of generation. Yes I agree NG has a lot of work to do to match the new supply offerings particularly off shore that is nowhere near a grid connection. As I’ve said before we need to use the old Power Station sites as wind/solar/battery locations but that isn’t the grids decision- Generating companies make those decisions! What the grid could do is add battery storage to its larger substation sites which could be used to balance demand!
Why don't we have more wave power. The tides go in and out every day they are predictable and, as we live on an island we should be able access the sea very easily.
It's not as easy as it sounds. You need some sort of foundations. Salt water damages most things. Flexing and spinning creates wear as do storms Water and electricity are not a good mix.
Wave and tidal power are different things, but they have the same problem - they need to be huge (i.e. expensive) to harvest useful power, and the sea is a really harsh environment. At the moment no one has been able to build one that pays for itself.
There are some small scale systems in place off the coast of Scotland and now Wales. If successful they could be expanded. There has been a very successful tidal barrage power station on the Rance in France since 1966. The UK is looking at tidal flow rather than barrages for environmental reasons.
@@ralpharmsby8040 Interesting. I wish them good luck. However, I still think every home and business should have solar panels and batteries. I live in a flat so this is not so easy to organise but being self-sufficient has an appeal to me.
We needed to get the nuclear stations built, we didn’t and now we have to pay to import. Just wait until more milk floats need pixie dust to work. P.s. i drive an ev
I've been saying since the 90s New Labour, when the war debt was paid off, the slavery bill settled, and they sold off the gold, they should have put that money into a handful of nuclear stations. They would all be on line now, with about 30 years of life still in them. In 30 years we will have cracked renewables. But ATM we are falling short, and having to rely on importing gas to generate electricity. So we are at the whip of foreign powers.
The trouble with nuclear is that it is funded by foreign money because they are so expensive to build and maintain. It then becomes some of the most expensive electricity produced. French nuclear is subsidised by their government and by the expensive electricity they sell to the likes of the UK. The UK has all the energy we need, and it's cheap compared to the alternatives, we just need to build the infrastructure to harness it.
The UK has increased it's range of cross country interconnects, mainly with countries generating green or low carbon electricity, this has changed the role of imports. Most import are now used as they are cheaper and greener than using gas (which may have also been imported itself at much higher cost). Imports now days tend to be as cheap or cheaper than producing electricity from in-country nuclear sources though not cheaper than renewables.
Funny how not so long ago people were saying the grid is fine and can cope with the demands of the EV and heat pumps. I don’t buy AI being that heavy demand.
Should still have at least 5 coal powered stations and they should have built several new nuclear stations along with massive increases in solar, battery storage. They should also have put massive power distribution systems across the country from north to south. As usual our government does not do the sensible thing such as banning petrol cars to early. Its the same with water population has gone up by 21 million since the last major reservoir was built. Talk about lack of planning.
Coal is massively expensive and dirty. The UK no longer has coal powered stations for good reasons. They produce very expensive energy that simply cannot compete with renewables. It's terrible for the environment and a direct health problem.
@@ricco123tube coal is only expensive because the make it so ,it has the highest taxes and lowest fee per kw for production, the only reason power companies like renewables is the artificial high price per kw they get
You are not clear in distinguushing between generation (the amount of power demand) and distribution which is the cables etc that get the power from generators to customers. It used to be that the old national company would look at poulation, industry, coal availability of the whole country coal transport and roughly design a grid which would be sort of efficient bearing in mind that distribution losses are about 8% so think about coal going by rail from the mines etc etc. Then comes gas with all its supply costs from well or terminal. Should the generators be closer to the fuel source or the customer demand. Rapidly introducing renewables into the mix means that energy can only be transported from wind sites to customers by cable. That is a problem because the wincd sites are along way from the customers and there is no existing cabling to transport it so it all has to be new, and there is a lot to do. I was never for privitisation of any essential services for the reasons mentioned. Water is a great example. There is a third component to the electrical network. The suppliers. They "sell" quantities of electricity that the generators generate to customers using the "grid" as their transport mechanism. Some providers are also generators. I like to think therecare two grids. The physical grid which is all the generators and cables bringing electrons to the customers building and the financial grid which is all the meters and accounting systems which make the money flow. Providers like Octopus who are real experts in running the market are tremendously influential in shaping energy use and matching generation capacity to demand with their tariffs . I think it would hard for any government to come up with such a system so that customers use energy when it is available and not continually on demand. What is needed is more cables to connect the wind sites with the population and industrial centres and for everybody to get solar on their roofs. At worse solar is a useful reduction in demand in winter during the day, at best it is a huge generator allowing wind energy to be stored.
Another thing we could use is hydro electricity - that’s nearly as green as solar and wind energy. More hydro electric power would be very much better than nuclear!!
I live in the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs National Park where we have one very small pump storage scheme at Loch Sloy, built 75+ years ago. In the 1970’s there was a plan to create a Cruachan type scheme inside Ben Lomond but it never went ahead because of objections from the 2 dozen residents objecting to the amount if construction traffic that would be needed. No objections to creating a whole new dam and storage loch up on the hill at the back of Ben Lomond or hollowing out the mountain for the turbine rooms, just to lorries operating on a remote hillside!
@@timoliver8940 I personally think that the new laws regarding planning for infrastructure projects like hydro electric power would stop the NIMBY fraternity from having their own way!! It’s time for the company trying to make this happen to submit another application to the local authority, but then to the Westminster Government so that the local authority can’t block the development.
Interesting fact.
When a generator is swirched on before transferring power it is perfectly synchronised with the grid. National Grid became national in the thirties and has not failed since.
There are no generators from those days but the 50 hz signal which started at the very beginning is still going, being passed on like a baton in a relay race where many of the team have passed away and most of the team have yet to be born. It cpuld go on to the end of the world.
I find that sort of romantic.
National grid also defeated the Nazis.
The 50 Hz frequency was used to synchronise the chain home radar stations enabling them all to work in a coronated way.
No radar, no RAF advantage. Bye bye Britain and then the world.
National in England and Wales. In Scotland the grid is owned by Scottish Power Energy Networks in the south and SSE Networks in the north. We're already over 100%renewable energy provision here so storage is the next thing to solve.
The profit motive of the Nation Grid is at odds with its mission to transition to a network powered by a distributed energy supply from intermittent renewables. This is why many of us who live remote rural area cannot get a G99 generation application past our DNOs (also the National Grid in our area) - the infrastructure is simply not up to it. When there is a clear choice between paying investors a dividend or replacing decades old electricity cables, it comes as no surprise to any of us that the former always wins.
@@clivepierce1816 Vote Tory much?
Is so you helped vote away our national infrastructure
You may want to do some research before you listen to the lefty views of some people.
Shareholders stumped up £7 billion in new investment cash for the grid. So you think they should do this for charity? It off the goodness of their hearts? If so you may want to go back to sleep and keep dreaming because that’s not how anywhere in the world works.
National grid can raise this money because of private finance.
@@davideyres955 Is this the same sort of private finance we sold our water to?
The same in which over 20 billion has been paid in dividends since it was privatised?
That worked out well didn't it. Carry on, I see no issues 🤔🤣
@@stuartburns8657no it wasn’t it was a ‘rights’ issue asking exiting share holders to invest so NG could finance the required enhancements needed!
@@clivepierce1816 if they are anything like the water companies they raise investment to pay out bonuses and high dividends on shares.
Saying that there was replacement of transmission lines in Cumbria a few years ago.
It’s not just like moving a fly lead from one patch panel to another! The biggest issue is getting connections to these new wind farms, planning applications delay everything!
They have stated that they want to move to micro grids, this would mean, something like adding batteries next to the new solar farm so that itthey would have no need to upgrade the supply line as the batteries could send all day the lower line level whilst storing anything in excess during the day. I would hope that this means we would be able to get as much storage as we want in our homes. This also then acts as more grid storage for them.
Something needs to be done to get all of these works connected efficiently.
The only certain thing to me is that we will move to renewables and that pace is increasing as costs are falling for this, where the olf fossil fuel ones will just become more and more expensive.
Totally agree Jay, let's add storage to every house(powerwall size about 13kWh) then plug our EVs to the grid with V2G, an average of maybe 30kWh allocated and there are 30 million houses, we become our own grid.
No way should a business have its own nuclear power station. It would be open to terrorist attacks and a danger to the general public.
No reason the Nuclear Police can't be in them. The operator paying for this of course.
The business won't own a nuclear power station they will just sign a contract will a nuclear power supplier for energy at a certain price point for a certain amount of time and availability. The energy supplier will then build the power station as near as possible to where the client needs it and connet it up to their data centre. Google/Amazon/Microsoft/Etc will not own or manage the nuclear power stations, they will just get the power directly from them not needing to take any power from the grid.
It is irrelevantt who owns a nuclear power station. The security must be he same regardless.
~12:00 Your grid, our (US) grid, all the grids, really do need a lot of upgrading, right down to the foundations. That's not just because of increasing use of renewable energy. Modernization is an ongoing process. No crash program is needed (although, of course, some acceleration is needed in some places). Equipment is always in need of replacement, as it wears out or becomes out of date. Use those events to update those items that need it.
17 days of storage for average UK household energy use is around 5 billion kwh of battery capacity.I haven't tried to work out the physical size of those batteries but it certainly seems like it would be unfathomable large.
Battery storage is only feasible for short term storage, longer term such as these 17 days etc there are far cheaper ways like CAES, etc even if less efficient but you can store masses of energy long term for days/months or even years.
Much of things like compressed air storage systems scale very well because you have the one generator and store the air many times underground in old mines etc and the limit of what you can store is only limited by the space available and this can be stored forever providing there are no air leaks and if there is a leak then the only emission is regular old air
There are plenty of other ways to store energy long term its just some are cheaper than others, you hear a lot about gravity, etc but for that you need something very heavy and that generally comes at a high cost.
@@RandomNoob I've never heard about CAES before.Sounds interesting.
@@keithbennett1656 Basically it's just compressed air, you compress regular old air and to get the energy back use that compressed air to turn a turbine so like a traditional generator just using compressed air instead of steam.
As I say the main benefit is long term, you can compress and store air for as long as needed, it's cheap and the more you store it the cheaper it gets as it just needs more space that can hold the pressure and doesn't leak.
It's very economical for very long term storage and well suited to storing excess peak summer for use during winter or emergencies etc and can use the vast amount of space we have already underground from old mines etc as a store.
And as I mentioned any leaks are harmless as it's just leaking the same old regulator air we breathe.
This will go up a lot when we all use heat pumps, which must happen. 10kw of heat for most of the day is not unusual (compare it with gas) in the depths of winter and that requires around 3kw of electrical input. Multiply that by 20 million homes and that is 60GW and completely dwarfs the EV charging requirement. Now calculate the storage required when there is a fortnight of flat calm in the depths of winter. Current efforts to handle this are woefully inadequate and just scratching the surface.
@@RandomNoobI understand that there is a compressed air system being built somewhere around Greater Manchester.
There are actually two 'grids' in the UK - The 'National' Grid (which is currently undergoing a 40 -50 Billion pound upgrade) and the local 'Distribution' grids (which takes power from substations to your home). It's the Distribution Grids which are the problem, it was recently reported that if (when) everybody has an EV /heat pump/ solar panels/a personal power (battery) storage system, the Local Grids would be incapable of carrying the requisite loadings. To upgrade the Local grids it was stated it would take 25 -30 years and cost upwards of 300 Billion which would have to be funded by a surcharge on bills.
We had this issue by us. BP Pulse were going to install a charger on a local car park, they found out that the local substation didn't have capacity and that the cost to upgrade wasn't financially viable. I think a lot of people forget about this part of the distribution system.
The UK, like California mentioned in the video, generates more electrical energy from renewables than fossil-fuels today.
The grid themselves have stated hey are on track to be carbon neutral, meaning mainly renewable and low carbon (biomass etc) with offsetting, by 2035 and fully Net Zero by 2050. The later being the government/OFGEMs goal and 2035 the grids own initiative.
The UKs battery capacity was 5GW up to the end of last year, another 4GW this year, and 95GW (confirmed pipeline) by 2030.
The National Grid themselves have flagged the connection issue, have ramped up their own resources to meet demand but face a slow regulation system in getting connections approved.
Basically everyone generators, storage, consumers and the grids are shouting for change - lets hope the government listens and funds such it the forthcoming budget.
Very Interesting subject.Thank you Dave 👍👍
Thanks Charles
With respect, I think you are missing the bigger point Dave, if the gov incentivises EV widespread across the UK, like Norway did, punish the ICE drivers (inc me) then the country will have battery storage on wheels.
Then manage supply/demand with agile tariffs so people charge when the renewables are generating, then demand will plummet when generation is low. Nuclear, current hydro/battery storage, biomass, some gas power, and some vehicle to grid will do the rest. They havent got the balls to stand up to the fossil fuel industry and voters at the speed required.
A glaringly obvious way to help us get more renewable energy and storage without costing the government a penny, would be to legislate that all new builds, domestic and commercial must have say a minimum of 80% of need matched by solar and battery storage for each build. There are newer types of cables that carry considerably more power than much of the installed grid. I believe the National Grid are already installing these as it requires no new pylons or planning permission. Another part of the solution will be geothermal and tidal. This won't reach the levels of solar and wind but it will give a modest part of our supply a better level of predictability.
Substations still and issue.
Also, wages of young earners are so far behind house prices as to be laughable.
Adding another 10k to an already unobtainable price will hurt on help.
Finally, we're only a few years away from the UK stopping paying for exported solar energy, and charging those who do so, like Australia
@@stuartburns8657 - and yet that 10k spent on solar for a house add to it's value when sold and make the property more attractive to sell on, whilst the cost is also spread over the term of the mortgage.
Whether the UK adopts export charging, which is fairly unique to Austrialia power network setup and political system, is not a given. The UK could wel equally seek for battery power to be distributed with the home's forming one core source. The National Grid (SSEN in Scotland) are upgrading sub-stations in areas with projected issues as part of their existing £29 billion investment plan, as well as resolving long term grid congestion points.
@@GruffSillyGoat We are already seeing the dreaded over generation duck curve, trust me it's only a couple of years away.
For the record I own a large PV array and home battery, but I wouldn't expect it to add value to my house, should I sell.
Export rates have recently gone down, whilst import has gone up.
Telling you anything?
I am generally an advocate of Solar, but in your own time, circumstances and choosing
tbh my take on home solar is size it for you're own needs with storage rather than over sizing it to generate a revenue stream. Of course installers try to sell oversized systems as this generates more profit for them, whilst most owners will say "oh ok if I've got the roof space and it makes money in the long run, go for it".
@@GruffSillyGoat Green initiatives typically start by leading ppl with potential savings / ROI.
While we should all be more environmentally conscious, ppl are buying EV for the most part due to saving potential.
Same as fleet sales. Now Fleet EV's attract the most benefit BIK, strange how business are adopting them isn't it?
Ok, so here's one for you and I've heard almost nothing on this idea!
Most people, in most countries are probably using streamed data in some way, everyday.
Whether it be on the many platforms like UA-cam via a mobile, laptop or on their own home TV's, the fact is, they use their data to watch and the broadcaster uses data to create the broadcast.
In a world where we are seemingly quite concerned about energy use, why are we able to freely create/watch content/films in 2k,4k/8k??? There is no real need for it! 4k, maybe 8k in cinemas I can understand.
I watch on a 15.6 screen laptop with 480p, as it's enough. I do up it sometimes to 720p for live financial charts on YT, but it's only for about 1% of my laptop time. I do not need any higher resolution.
I get, the bigger the screen, the higher resolution helps for a good picture, but we now have ridiculously large TV screens, some so big, that 2k is probably the minimum most people would use for clarity!
Perhaps Governments ought to set a maximum size of TV screens to 55 - 60 inches, which is very big compared to 30 years ago. I would not say lower than 55 inch, as TV screen can carry a multitude of detail these days.
But also limit all TV, laptop, mobile screens to 2k max. This also has to mean limiting broadcasts to 2k max.
Then also add proportion, to it; a 40 inch TV screen is very clear, running at 1080p. Even if the broadcast is in 2k, there is still energy saving at the viewers end!
There must be millions watching things in a higher wasteful resolution, because nothing stops them or never think about reducing resolution to a level that's still quite clear! You see where I'm going with this by now?
For example; a 1hr video made in 4k, with me watching in 4k takes about 5 times more electric to produce and be watched once, than made in 1080p and watched in 1080p. And that one video could be watched 100,000 times!!
My main point....a massive saving on electricity currently being used!
If you ever see my comments on this channel, I genuinely mean them and am not here to be an arse!
I have made a couple of angry comments, but only when I see very biased content.
I do drop the odd sarcastic reply to a few over the top comments, but often end it with a 'lol'
All I ever try to convey, is that with EV's, we are still running before we can walk!
I still think the likes of GA Drilling (Geothermal Anywhere) and Quaise Energy could be the answer to our ling-term energy needs.
Imagine a constant source of energy right under our feet.
No solar panels, wind turbines or batteries needed!
A constant source of cheap, clean energy on tap for millions of years.
Unless vested interests kill it off, of course.
All that cheap energy for millions of years, readily available for my EV! ;)
Efforts so far have completely failed.
Yes and no. The above ground pylons etc amount to less than 4% of the grid. The DNO systems are buried (in roads and pavements) and comprise c. 600,000 km (in the UK) of cabling. These are, in general, fit for "lighting+" duties; design criteria varies from 1 to 2.5kW per home continuous (set by area). Around 2013, the peak domestic draw averaged across the UK, for 1 home, was c. 800W in the evening. Yes, we can support SOME EVs, but not that many. Go to a world with lots of EVs and there is a major problem with the last mile DNO (230V / LV) networks. These are on the whole inadequate. Expect (cough) some roadworks. And major bills.
Most these buried cables and c. 1/4 million local transformers likely replacing, to be able to service EVs and HP connecting on 230V networks.
NB known to those in power for a long time (earlier than 2012); another can kicked down the road for political reasons.
My total use, including my EV, is 7kwh a day, well within the local grid capabilities, That's if I travelled 40 miles every day, more than the average driver. I don't, but I did the last couple of days.
You seem be to making the common mistake of assuming that everyone will charge their EV from empty every day, and all at the same time.
If you drive the average 8000 miles per year, that's only about 5kWh per day. Average that over 24 hours and it's only about 200W per household. Plus it's pretty easy to move it to a time when the house isn't using power for anything else.
Don't worry about EVs, worry about how much power we'll need when every house has a heat pump. If your gas bill is about the same cost as your electricity bill, it means you're using 3-5 times as much energy for heating.
@@robinbennett5994 :) Hi Robin! My supervisor and the external assessor who reviewed and granted me a doctorate in this subject didn't spot that one, alas. Oops....
Well, I did simulate many ev types, winter/summer effects (range loss), V2G and local battery stores, no control, remote charging control using two possible algorithms, power system failures, away from home and at home charging and a few more thingies over 6+ years and some tedius 4.9 billion individually tracked and assessed EV trips based on real-world UK data. Problem is that most EVs are at home for limited times, and the Government encourage charging in a narrow time band, as do the energy retailers.
This co-ordinated charging undercuts LV ADMD design criteria used by UK DNOs for their local networks (the 230V systems to houses). Problems start from c. 20..40% EV replacement of ICE cars, with the transformers going 1st. Various regions effected by historic build standards for the construction regs. For instatance, ENW and SP built assuming homes need a network able to supply c. 1-1.5kW each simultaneously. Thats what's built, and way inadequate for 100% EV populations let alone HP.
Homes on estates wired for overnight storage heating (so entire network can supply 12kW to each of thousands of homes simultaneously) will be OK. That's pretty rare tho....
The first indications of problems came in 2008's DS2030 analysis, confirmed c. 2014-ish with EATL's My Electric Avenue project, a real-world investigation using 700ish Leafs in the UK. I can dig out the docs which presented the findings if you'ld like; my work was to take the red flag "There's a Problem" both raised - and see if it could be fixed using modern jiggery-pokery (computers, smart heuristics etc). Nope.
All good fun!
@@robinbennett5994 Well, YT seems to have lost the book I wrote in reply. Suffice to say that following the 2008 DS2030 report for ENA, EATL was commissioned to look into the problems flagged in the 2013-2014 My Electric Avenue trials with 700ish Leafs. There is a problem; EATL concluded that these will effect local networks and be seen from c. 40% EV penetration. My work was to look for a way around those problems, as a topic (EV charging + countermeasures / alleviations) and over c. 4 years not only were the EATL problems encounted again via simulation, those simulations (of 4.9 billion realistic EV trips, based on UK data, many varied scenarious and methods tried) found no effective way to fix the issue. Although, I opined from the data (now with 7.2kW) charging problems start from c. 20% ish EV penetration.
The LV transformers (11kV to 400V 3-phase jobbies supplying housing estates) go 1st.
There are ways to defer the problem, but not fix it (local charging controllers can help for a bit). Then Heat Pumps arrive. Yes, HP are the worst and are the death-knell. Expect new LV systems (= extensive roadworks).
The issue is that the local 230V networks to homes were not built for the energy now demanded. Without energy carrying capacity, it cannot be supplied no matter the clever schemes dreamed up :( however the politicos have been sold the "Smart" snake-oil based on IT and AI. Nope; energy throughput limits trump that.
You make a good point. in future it's likely that EVs will be charged together on low off-peak rates typically offered between 2am and 6am. That could mean each house in a street consuming 7.3kW simultainsuly. To this add the the 10kW heat pumps which cut in automatically on a cold night. The local transformers and cabling will need to be upgraded to deal with that situation. And then there's the cabling and MV transformers feeding the electricity to towns and villages and city suburbs to be upgraded, and so on.
2023 saw the Earth that used to absorb 30% of CO2 not absorb any!!! Earth temps now up to 1.64c above pre industrial!!! Geo Thermal is an exciting addition to Wind/Solar/Storage and needs investing in and can be used at existing Fossil Power Stations and has a very small footprint!! Sub Stations could need renewing to add local capacity and let energy flow "both ways"!!
Only of use in places like Iceland and New Zealand.
@@rogerphelps9939 Drilling 6kms you get super heated water anywhere on earth!! The drilling is the expensive bit that needs investment to bring costs down!!
@@simonpannett8810 6km is a long way. A lot more than most oil and gas wells. The fluid that is pumped up is very corrosive so machinery wears out rapidly. Then there is the problem that over extraction will cause tempoeratures to fall. A lot of unsolved problems.
@@rogerphelps9939 Yes, that is why we need to invest to see what the true potential is!
Did you say there was a link below and a report we can read? I can’t see the link? Repost please.
Sorry Dave nearly all your stats are in the USA particularly google and nuclear power story! I don’t believe any uk government, even the Tories, would allow that😮! In the uk power is not generated by the national grid but by the power companies- NG basically balances demand against supply and has no control over the types of generation. Yes I agree NG has a lot of work to do to match the new supply offerings particularly off shore that is nowhere near a grid connection. As I’ve said before we need to use the old Power Station sites as wind/solar/battery locations but that isn’t the grids decision- Generating companies make those decisions! What the grid could do is add battery storage to its larger substation sites which could be used to balance demand!
Why don't we have more wave power. The tides go in and out every day they are predictable and, as we live on an island we should be able access the sea very easily.
It's not as easy as it sounds. You need some sort of foundations. Salt water damages most things. Flexing and spinning creates wear as do storms Water and electricity are not a good mix.
Wave and tidal power are different things, but they have the same problem - they need to be huge (i.e. expensive) to harvest useful power, and the sea is a really harsh environment. At the moment no one has been able to build one that pays for itself.
There is an experimental tidal generator working in the sea of the island of Orkney
There are some small scale systems in place off the coast of Scotland and now Wales. If successful they could be expanded. There has been a very successful tidal barrage power station on the Rance in France since 1966. The UK is looking at tidal flow rather than barrages for environmental reasons.
@@ralpharmsby8040 Interesting. I wish them good luck. However, I still think every home and business should have solar panels and batteries. I live in a flat so this is not so easy to organise but being self-sufficient has an appeal to me.
What about hydro? Pretty sure at least part of our renewable energy is generated by that?
It is but in the UK it is a tiny proportion and cannot be expanded ssignificantly because of lack of suitable sites.
Hydro is producing 1 - 1.5% daily. @@rogerphelps9939
We needed to get the nuclear stations built, we didn’t and now we have to pay to import. Just wait until more milk floats need pixie dust to work. P.s. i drive an ev
I've been saying since the 90s New Labour, when the war debt was paid off, the slavery bill settled, and they sold off the gold, they should have put that money into a handful of nuclear stations. They would all be on line now, with about 30 years of life still in them. In 30 years we will have cracked renewables. But ATM we are falling short, and having to rely on importing gas to generate electricity. So we are at the whip of foreign powers.
The trouble with nuclear is that it is funded by foreign money because they are so expensive to build and maintain. It then becomes some of the most expensive electricity produced.
French nuclear is subsidised by their government and by the expensive electricity they sell to the likes of the UK.
The UK has all the energy we need, and it's cheap compared to the alternatives, we just need to build the infrastructure to harness it.
The UK has increased it's range of cross country interconnects, mainly with countries generating green or low carbon electricity, this has changed the role of imports. Most import are now used as they are cheaper and greener than using gas (which may have also been imported itself at much higher cost). Imports now days tend to be as cheap or cheaper than producing electricity from in-country nuclear sources though not cheaper than renewables.
Dave what is this about vat going on public charging
VAT is already on public charging. Ideally it needs to be same tax as our supply at home
VAT is applied at 20% on public charging because the charge point operator is an intermediate seller.
Funny how not so long ago people were saying the grid is fine and can cope with the demands of the EV and heat pumps. I don’t buy AI being that heavy demand.
So Apple is not buying their own nuclear reactor? One reactor for one of their data centres?
The data storage equipment uses masses of electricity and also needs masses more to keep it cool.
Should still have at least 5 coal powered stations and they should have built several new nuclear stations along with massive increases in solar, battery storage. They should also have put massive power distribution systems across the country from north to south. As usual our government does not do the sensible thing such as banning petrol cars to early. Its the same with water population has gone up by 21 million since the last major reservoir was built. Talk about lack of planning.
no planning? search the "great grid upgrade" to see what is being done!
Coal is massively expensive and dirty.
The UK no longer has coal powered stations for good reasons. They produce very expensive energy that simply cannot compete with renewables. It's terrible for the environment and a direct health problem.
@@ricco123tube coal is only expensive because the make it so ,it has the highest taxes and lowest fee per kw for production, the only reason power companies like renewables is the artificial high price per kw they get
You are not clear in distinguushing between generation (the amount of power demand) and distribution which is the cables etc that get the power from generators to customers.
It used to be that the old national company would look at poulation, industry, coal availability of the whole country coal transport and roughly design a grid which would be sort of efficient bearing in mind that distribution losses are about 8% so think about coal going by rail from the mines etc etc.
Then comes gas with all its supply costs from well or terminal.
Should the generators be closer to the fuel source or the customer demand.
Rapidly introducing renewables into the mix means that energy can only be transported from wind sites to customers by cable. That is a problem because the wincd sites are along way from the customers and there is no existing cabling to transport it so it all has to be new, and there is a lot to do.
I was never for privitisation of any essential services for the reasons mentioned. Water is a great example.
There is a third component to the electrical network. The suppliers. They "sell" quantities of electricity that the generators generate to customers using the "grid" as their transport mechanism. Some providers are also generators.
I like to think therecare two grids. The physical grid which is all the generators and cables bringing electrons to the customers building and the financial grid which is all the meters and accounting systems which make the money flow.
Providers like Octopus who are real experts in running the market are tremendously influential in shaping energy use and matching generation capacity to demand with their tariffs . I think it would hard for any government to come up with such a system so that customers use energy when it is available and not continually on demand.
What is needed is more cables to connect the wind sites with the population and industrial centres and for everybody to get solar on their roofs. At worse solar is a useful reduction in demand in winter during the day, at best it is a huge generator allowing wind energy to be stored.
Another thing we could use is hydro electricity - that’s nearly as green as solar and wind energy. More hydro electric power would be very much better than nuclear!!
2 new pumped hydro projects are underway in the Scottish Highlands.
where that isnt already? very few places suitable in the uk
I live in the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs National Park where we have one very small pump storage scheme at Loch Sloy, built 75+ years ago. In the 1970’s there was a plan to create a Cruachan type scheme inside Ben Lomond but it never went ahead because of objections from the 2 dozen residents objecting to the amount if construction traffic that would be needed. No objections to creating a whole new dam and storage loch up on the hill at the back of Ben Lomond or hollowing out the mountain for the turbine rooms, just to lorries operating on a remote hillside!
@@timoliver8940 I personally think that the new laws regarding planning for infrastructure projects like hydro electric power would stop the NIMBY fraternity from having their own way!! It’s time for the company trying to make this happen to submit another application to the local authority, but then to the Westminster Government so that the local authority can’t block the development.