Hi Derek, re: BFT backup Love your videos glade your doing them!!! I'm sure it is helping many people learn stuff so they can cave better and safer. At around the 10:00 and the BFT. By tying back to the same tree anchor point it is not a back up for that anchor, the tree. It is for the webbing and carabineer. To say it's an anchor backup you'd need to have at least one other anchor point like another tree. And yes having at least a second point is always a good idea. There is a reason a separate belays ropes system are need for rescue, because you just never know what could happen or be missed! Everyone says and hopes it never will happen or be missed but... I've heard... or see a belay system in action thankfully for the guy in the stretcher because someone missed the slack in the main line/rope. For your anchor to be called a back up anchor it would need to be a separate tree or anchor point IMO.. Preferably behind the first keeping the angle to a minimum form the applied force, or like a Y hang set up. I have seen people rig to what they thought were BFT and at inspection the tree is dead if they had looked up, but in winter it would look the same. Or has poor root systems. And some big trees & logs in B.C. for example can get dry rotten all the way through but look fine on the outside. People have walk along some big tree and fallen through up to there arm pits. Same with rocks and formation, a separate anchor point is good idea if available. Some formation grow on mud banks covering up the mud they are growing on for example and can be pulled lose. And if bolts are used there are usually two. Some use preloaded back ties to back up a tree anchor for example is another way to have a back up anchor to a tree anchor. Great your tell people to learn as much as they can from books and suggesting some good ones to start with, and working with other experienced people to learn more. It's always good to have another pair of eyes looking to help double check all the rigging after all. hopefully whom ever you are learning from can answerer the why questions too, Not just because that's how we always have done it or that someone else showed them to do it that way. Often there is more than one way to safely rig a spot after all, some being better depending on... or if it might be need if something bad happen on the rope or cave trip. Gravity is always on, no one wants to fall or have a friends fall after all. When some one new is learning and even others, you don't know what you don't know or have forgotten stuff too, or are tired. There is always more to learn, and more new cave to explore out there after all! Remember to have fun and be safety minded especially when dealing with rope and heights you could fall down. That's my two cents about what I see is a backup anchor and why one is a good idea to always have if you can. Thanks again for showing the various ways to rig and always keeping safety in mind, as you do!
Great video - I've really been enjoying your channel. I'm from the USA, but started caving in New Zealand. I've noticed some slightly contrasting practicing between the two caving cultures. Thanks very much.
Artificial anchors will be the subject of the next rigging tutorial, but it may be a couple of months. If placing anchors in "less than ideal rock", then the emphasis should be on redundancy. Also, you can often find better rock for bolting if you clean away enough of the surface.
What do you recommend to do if you need to make a rebelay on a descent and have a solid natural anchor like a pillar but have to use only the middle of the rope? Would you recommend something like Petzl's anneau for creating a natural anchor or is there some way to tie the rope around the anchor safely and effectively?
I suppose the easiest solution is to use a separate piece of webbing to sling the natural anchor, add a maillon or locking carabiner, and rig the rope to that with a figure-8 on a bight or butterfly knot. This preserves rope, reduces the risk of abrasion on the rope, and is easier to modify. If I don't have webbing then I've also cut off a little rope from the end and used this to sling a mid-rope anchor (be very careful if using a knife while on rope - best to plan ahead and cut what you need before starting down). If you just want to rig a natural in the middle of a pitch with the main rope without rethreading the entire rope through a loop knot, then you can tie a bowline from a bight of rope (note: some people mistakenly call this a bowline on a bight or a double-bowline, but those are different knots; I just call it a bowline tied from a bight, but that's not an official name).
@ 7:07 you rig your stop in a weird way. can you give an explanation please. i also use a freino and stop. i also noticed you tied off your stop in another video with just a half hitch and a second loop through the freino, could you elaborate on that as well please. Love your video and have learned tonnes from you.
Hi Jason. The configuration shown at 7:07 is commonly known as the "C" configuration. It's a lower friction way to rig a Stop and can be useful when descending low angle pitches on fat and/or dirty ropes. The rope pitch shown in that clip meets all the above criteria. When rigging a "C" the brake on the Stop is no longer functional, and it's critical that it always be used with a brake biner (or Freino). The double wrap of a Stop, with the rope passing through the Freino brake arm twice, is an alternative way to "hard-lock" the device. I find it a bit faster than putting a bight of rope through the biner and looping over the top.
Great video as always Derek. I appreciate how you turn the music down during the times you're speaking, but I do think the music is a bit loud during non speaking parts. A little distracting and maybe just a tad out of place. Other than that, informative and to the point as always.
I just recently came across your channel. It's nice to see some educational type caving videos.
When I started making videos I did a search for various caving techniques and didn't find much. I saw an unmet need.
Hahaha! Love the "Old" and "New" testament
Def the "hybrid approach"! Great video!
Hi Derek, re: BFT backup
Love your videos glade your doing them!!!
I'm sure it is helping many people learn stuff so they can cave better and safer.
At around the 10:00 and the BFT.
By tying back to the same tree anchor point it is not a back up for that anchor, the tree. It is for the webbing and carabineer. To say it's an anchor backup you'd need to have at least one other anchor point like another tree. And yes having at least a second point is always a good idea.
There is a reason a separate belays ropes system are need for rescue, because you just never know what could happen or be missed! Everyone says and hopes it never will happen or be missed but... I've heard... or see a belay system in action thankfully for the guy in the stretcher because someone missed the slack in the main line/rope.
For your anchor to be called a back up anchor it would need to be a separate tree or anchor point IMO.. Preferably behind the first keeping the angle to a minimum form the applied force, or like a Y hang set up.
I have seen people rig to what they thought were BFT and at inspection the tree is dead if they had looked up, but in winter it would look the same. Or has poor root systems. And some big trees & logs in B.C. for example can get dry rotten all the way through but look fine on the outside. People have walk along some big tree and fallen through up to there arm pits. Same with rocks and formation, a separate anchor point is good idea if available. Some formation grow on mud banks covering up the mud they are growing on for example and can be pulled lose. And if bolts are used there are usually two.
Some use preloaded back ties to back up a tree anchor for example is another way to have a back up anchor to a tree anchor.
Great your tell people to learn as much as they can from books and suggesting some good ones to start with, and working with other experienced people to learn more. It's always good to have another pair of eyes looking to help double check all the rigging after all. hopefully whom ever you are learning from can answerer the why questions too, Not just because that's how we always have done it or that someone else showed them to do it that way. Often there is more than one way to safely rig a spot after all, some being better depending on... or if it might be need if something bad happen on the rope or cave trip.
Gravity is always on, no one wants to fall or have a friends fall after all.
When some one new is learning and even others, you don't know what you don't know or have forgotten stuff too, or are tired. There is always more to learn, and more new cave to explore out there after all!
Remember to have fun and be safety minded especially when dealing with rope and heights you could fall down.
That's my two cents about what I see is a backup anchor and why one is a good idea to always have if you can.
Thanks again for showing the various ways to rig and always keeping safety in mind, as you do!
Great video - I've really been enjoying your channel. I'm from the USA, but started caving in New Zealand. I've noticed some slightly contrasting practicing between the two caving cultures. Thanks very much.
Magnifico video Derek, siempre atento a tus aportes y observaciones, saludos desde Venezuela.
Another great video Derek!!!
Great video for a beginner thinking of starting caving !
Wow, you've done caving in Oaxaca, what about in Taxco? There are some big big killers there.
Great video! Maybe a video about rigging and placing artificial anchors in less than ideal rock like in Binkleys
Artificial anchors will be the subject of the next rigging tutorial, but it may be a couple of months. If placing anchors in "less than ideal rock", then the emphasis should be on redundancy. Also, you can often find better rock for bolting if you clean away enough of the surface.
What do you recommend to do if you need to make a rebelay on a descent and have a solid natural anchor like a pillar but have to use only the middle of the rope? Would you recommend something like Petzl's anneau for creating a natural anchor or is there some way to tie the rope around the anchor safely and effectively?
I suppose the easiest solution is to use a separate piece of webbing to sling the natural anchor, add a maillon or locking carabiner, and rig the rope to that with a figure-8 on a bight or butterfly knot. This preserves rope, reduces the risk of abrasion on the rope, and is easier to modify. If I don't have webbing then I've also cut off a little rope from the end and used this to sling a mid-rope anchor (be very careful if using a knife while on rope - best to plan ahead and cut what you need before starting down). If you just want to rig a natural in the middle of a pitch with the main rope without rethreading the entire rope through a loop knot, then you can tie a bowline from a bight of rope (note: some people mistakenly call this a bowline on a bight or a double-bowline, but those are different knots; I just call it a bowline tied from a bight, but that's not an official name).
I´m sorry I get lost on BFT, BFR shorts, could you explain to me what that means please ?
Big Friendly Tree, Big Friendly Rock, ...
@ 7:07 you rig your stop in a weird way. can you give an explanation please. i also use a freino and stop. i also noticed you tied off your stop in another video with just a half hitch and a second loop through the freino, could you elaborate on that as well please. Love your video and have learned tonnes from you.
Hi Jason. The configuration shown at 7:07 is commonly known as the "C" configuration. It's a lower friction way to rig a Stop and can be useful when descending low angle pitches on fat and/or dirty ropes. The rope pitch shown in that clip meets all the above criteria. When rigging a "C" the brake on the Stop is no longer functional, and it's critical that it always be used with a brake biner (or Freino). The double wrap of a Stop, with the rope passing through the Freino brake arm twice, is an alternative way to "hard-lock" the device. I find it a bit faster than putting a bight of rope through the biner and looping over the top.
thats exactly what I thought. Thanks for the quick response!
what sort of bend do you use for the webbing wraps around your natural anchors?
Almost always a water knot.
@@DerekBristol thanks.
note: would love to see your take on a knot climbing system(s)!
Great video as always Derek. I appreciate how you turn the music down during the times you're speaking, but I do think the music is a bit loud during non speaking parts. A little distracting and maybe just a tad out of place. Other than that, informative and to the point as always.
Yes, perhaps. I'm always trying to learn and improve. Audio quality and editing is still an opportunity.