Death In June - The Politics Of Douglas P
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- Опубліковано 14 чер 2024
- I’ve long been a fan of Death In June but I’ll be the first to admit I’ve been a casual listener, dipping in and out of Douglas’ mystical world as and when I please. I finally decided to do a deep dive into the controversy around Death In June and analyze the group’s imagery, symbolism and lyrical content. The aim of the video is to try and fully understand if there is any weight to the accusations that get thrown at Douglas P a lot.
I am not here to condemn Douglas P and nor am I - and this is important because people fly off without reading or watching things properly - nor am I defending Douglas P and the choices he has made with Death In June over the decades. This has been a learning experience for me, and if anything, it has greatly deepened my understanding of this fascinating artist.
I encourage any and all civilized dialogue on the subject, regardless of where you stand.
00:00 - Introduction
07:49 - Origins Of The Name
11:55 - (But What Ends) When The Symbolism Matters?
18:00 - Songs & Lyrics
32:24 - Final Thoughts
34:08 - Douglas' Statement To The German Government
* SOME SOURCES *
Thorium Heavy Industries - Last Europa Kiss full show parts 1 & 2:
• Death In June - Last E...
• Death in June - Last E...
(A note on the above: I have placed this first as it is the definitive Death In June live footage, and I recommend anyone who is even a passing fan of Douglas’ music to check out the Thorium Heavy Industries channel if not done so already. Not only is the footage superbly shot and in HD, the audio is from sound desk recordings. There are many other live neofolk artists uploaded on this channel too)
Behind the Mask documentary: • Death In June - Behind...
Brainwashed.com 2005 interview: • Brainwashed.com: The E...
Douglas’ letter to the German authorities: www.deathinjune.org/articlesta...
Hail! The White Grain ‘bottoming’ theory: genius.com/Death-in-june-hail...
Death In June meme stash: www.deathinjune.org/memes/
Background music during narration: foreignblades.bandcamp.com/re... (“Corrupted Bodies Bathed In Holy Light” used with permission)
Death In June - The Trigger music video by Herr Lounge Corps: • Death In June - The Tr...
Death In June - The Humble Brag music video by Herr Lounge Corps: • Death In June - The Hu...
Death In June live in New York: • Death in June live in ...
Death In June live in Brest by Gweza as Mik: • DEATH IN JUNE - Little...
Photographic stills taken from image searches, Discogs and my own personal stash. Any issues, please reach out and let me know.
* CORRECTIONS *
I did not know at the time of recording that several songs - including “Because Of Him” - were adapted from songs by the People’s Temple Choir, which means my analysis of the lyrical content is 100% incorrect. Even though I talk about "He's Disabled" at the start, this discovery should only effect the small section on "Because Of Him".
When talking about “Symbols Of The Sun” I refer to a line in the song that goes: “symbols of the winter”. This, of course, doesn’t exist. The correct line is: “symbols of the snow”. The worst bit is, during the completed edit, Douglas sings the correct line just before I say the incorrect one. D’oh!
* SONGS *
Here are a list of the Death In June songs used in this video, in order of appearance:
Come Before Christ and Murder Love
Luther’s Army
Hail! The White Grain
Rose Clouds Of Holocaust
All Pigs Must Die
Heaven Street
Runes Of Men
Bring In The Night
Because Of Him
Ku Ku Ku
Symbols Of The Sun
13 Years Of Carrion
The Odin Hour
The Trigger
Reprise 2
Fall Apart
Hi Everyone! - Just a quick pinned update to underline this one as I need to move on:
This kinda "blew up" for me, my most successful video before this had 1k views, so this kind of response to my stuff has been somewhat overwhelming. At this point I'm gonna slow down responding to people and move on to the next video I have in mind, which will be another regular discography video.
Regarding Death In June, if you've just landed on this video please give a scroll through the comments after or during your watch, the folks here have contributed a ton and I've learned a lot during this whole process.
One thing I want to make eternally clear, as one commenter called me an apologist for Death In June's antics so I just want to make this abundantly transparent:
I am vehemently anti-fascist and left-wing. Always have been, always will be. I do not endorse the use of nazi symbolism, but never would I say Death In June can't use it. That's his choice, and this video is my attempts as a fan to try and figure out why he uses such imagery. Whether or not I've been successful is entirely debatable, but I just wanted to make it clear where I stand.
Thank you to everyone who commented and got involved in the discussion. It's been a wild ride!
I honestly love such political discussions. everyone rushes to say that they're anti- this or that, & that _"their"_ political views don't include the evils of past systems. Then you ask them why they choose from among the Biggest most popular ones & they point out that there's no point in following one that doesn't have the power of Mass Support, which is what leads to all the harms.
In other words, everyone is _LYING_ to themselves.
Feeling like one belongs to the Winning Side is what keeps every last person on the planet believing that lobbying $ doesn't affect the decision-making of those they vote for. Anti-jab people will acknowledge the involvement of Bill Gates & Tony Fauci, two people who have zero say on policy, never *daring to mention* the real people who vote the mandates in.
They can't do it.
'Politics' is an illusion. No label ever made anyone do anything, but we excuse all our Worst Behaviors on their being for some Greater Cause.
Isms are concepts. If you need one to feel like you'll only be accepted _because of_ one or because you don't feel your society can excuse what it allows any other way, maybe it's unhealthy to keep using that type of shield to avoid facing reality.
Imho.
I agree, that if you listen to someone you aren't necessarily agreeng with them. Same goes with politics, someone trying to understand other sides doesn't make them an enemy (got that good reference from Shoe0nHead ;) )
Unlucky Jew = Jesus
I think you have a very mature and sophisticated take that many people aren't ready for. But I myself can appreciate.
do a current 93 discgraphy, now that would be ssomething.
I saw former DIJ member Ian Read at this goth club in Seattle that I was at out of morbid curiosity back in 1995. This dude was all about witchcraft and Lucifer, and instead of saying something like "thank you" at the end he said "this life is pain" and just walked away with his head down. Weird.
Machinewerks/Merc?
@@andrewanderson1988 Live in Seattle myself, unfortunately. Is Merc still around?
@@patrickbertlein4626 Oh, I have no clue, I live in Austin now. It's been a reallllllly long time since I was at the Merc.
LMAO
Hell yes lol
Judging from the mass of seemingly contradictory statements, I've seen Pearce describe himself as a political libertarian but with 'an empathy for fascism.' He seems to believe it to be the most natural politic. Of course, empathy and sympathy are not the same thing if we are to take this at face value. There is no doubt that he is some kind of Pan-European, which isn't inherently fascistic but is a position often utilized by fascists. I believe him when he says that he doesn't deny the holocaust. In the mid 80's, he dedicated a compilation to the memory of holocaust survivors, complete with pictures he took at the Dachau camp. The fact that he sells pink triangles, a symbol reclaimed by the gay community from the Nazi period, would be consistent with this. Darryl Hell, the guy who filmed 'Behind The Mask' interview documentary with Pearce, is a black man who is clearly on the left side of things. Some will inevitably brush this off as the 'black friend' excuse but he has given statements condemning racial violence.
"Why should Death In June or I have anything to do with these asinine skinheads or neo-Nazi shit? Is there something about my music that could make one think that I may have an interest in these people? For 11 years, I have said that skinheads, neo-Nazis and violent criminals are complete assholes and I say that again still today!"
This comment has been attributed to Pearce from an early 90's German fanzine. He has also said that the National Front are made up of the dumbest people in Britain. Do check out the Statement5 article from the Death In June archive site, which is loaded with clear denials of fascist adherence from Pearce himself.
Nonetheless, it's easy to imagine him entertaining aspects of fascism but he is known to be a bit of a prankster and a troll with a very cheeky sarcasm that is sometimes lost in print. He does clearly display misanthropic tendencies. I don't think we'll ever get much clarity out of him and he doesn't owe that to anyone. More than anything, I wouldn't be surprised if he views all political ideologies as roads to ruin. Be it communist, fascist or neoliberal. Perhaps his work does show how no one is safe from committing atrocities for ideological purposes and that no utopian solution can ever be fulfilled without bloodshed. Tragic, no? His presentation may show you how fascism can also be alluring, even if from an erotic or fetishistic angle. The ambiguity might be key in remaining 'taboo', which goes hand in hand with the erotic and maintaining a kind of power that nornally fades with other groups once seen as provocative or transgressive. To remain transgressive means you can not be assimilated into the system. Sex Pistols were transgressive but now have a Disney biopic. These days, people brush off anything transgressive as "edgelord" shit which I personally find to be very short sighted and overly cynical, but that's a whole other can of worms in itself. Getting back to the erotic as political angle, it is hard to ignore the homoerotic subtext to much of his work. Let us not forget how some corners of underground gay S&M subcultures have flirted with Nazi iconography and uniform fetishism for decades. You see it in films like Scorpio Rising, The Damned, the drawings of Tom of Finland and of course, the works of Jean Genet whose book 'Funeral Rites', Pearce has named as the most inspiring piece of literature on his artistic output. Lines from 'To Drown a Rose' and the entirety of 'The Fog of the World' originate from that book. One could easily look at Death In June in the same manner as the aforementioned artists. That is a look into the relationship between the erotic and the politics of power.
I will still treat pink triangles as naz-i. since the gay community is like a fascist group
This comment made me feel understood
Solid analysis.
Weak. Douglas doesn't tell what he really thinks because he can't. He'd never perform again at best; at worst end up in some European jail.
It seems like he has a Nazi fetish and loves the controversy without actually believing or supporting Nazism. His obsession with symbolism and iconography and the aesthetics of fascism is somewhat understandable, and he is clearly a history nerd. Now, it is possible he drifts into wormholes of denialism or political support - if you are obsessed with a topic you get exposed to every point of view on that subject and it would be easy to get lost, especially if you are fascinated or attracted to aspects of the Nazi regime aesthetically. How much is genuine and how much is performance is also subject to debate. I think without this controversy he would have a much more limited fan base and less fame so it works to some degree for him commercially when it comes to building a career making quite non-commercial music.
Here's my idea about 'the trigger', it would make sense if the 'unlucky Jew' was Jesus, considering he mentions that 'the crucifix on the wall protects not much at all' and Douglas is a pagan
Wow, so simple now, when you spell it out like that! Haha! I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
In order to believe that Christ was a Jew you have to affirm biological determinism, AND rabbinical Judaism. Which, many people do. But that is a flawed understanding of Christianity. Christ transcended this distinction which is the point of the Gospel.
@@SkullOfTheAbyss Jesus was born a Jew, to a Jewish mother, his philosophy does not change that.
Neither does anyones cultish veneration make him divine.
@@cat_and_cabbage4662 well, I see you’ve bought whole heartedly into a different type of cultish SELF divination, and J’ish style biological determinism.
When it comes to Jesus, if you want to play semantic games, the only real alternative is non existence in general
A number of the songs on “Symbols Shatter” are actually reworked covers of songs by Jim Jones’ People’s Temple Choir: such as “Because of Him” and “He’s Disabled”. These songs done originally by the People’s Temple Choir were meant to be vaguely referencing God but within the cult actually refer to Jim Jones himself. I believe the album is about disillusionment and overcoming that disillusionment - and I believe that disillusionment is from Douglas' experience in the Antifa movement of the 70s as a member of Crisis. Nothing in DIJ's lyrics makes me think they, excluding Tony Wakeford in the 80s, were racist: but the propaganda keeps people scared of the band. And that's why DIJ keeps teasing us, because they know they are persecuted as a band - either for being gay or for being pragmatic, or whatever. The track “Hollows of Devotion” from that same album preceding the final title track, according to an interview with the Fist in 1993, is about a sexual encounter with a gay Catholic priest.
"Because of Him" could potentially be an ironic reference to Jim Jones. That song, along with "Little Black Angel" and "He's Disabled" were transformed covers of songs that The Peoples Temple performed and recorded several years before the massacre. Just a thought.
It IS a reference to peoples temple.
I discovered death in june on accident in the fall of 2008 when I was fifteen after accidentally hitting the enter key while googling my eighteen year old Mexican friends death earlier that year in June.
The night before his death, there was a severe thunderstorm that ended up causing a power surge and alot of people had to reset their breakers. His uncle was unaware that there was damage to their tin shed in the backyard and it was slightly leaning on the steel wire fence when he reset them. For a long time he blamed himself but it is just one of those incidents with so many variables that there is no way he could have foresee what would happen. My friend and I were about to box and he laid his shirt on the fence. He was barefoot and the ground was damp. He threw his shirt over the fence and when he touched it muscles tensed up and he gripped the fence with the total strength of a young man that was bench pressing 420 lbs (he was very stoked about having the coach write it on the marker board lol) and he had an affinity for fucking about. The last thing he said, through clenched teeth, was "Get me off this fucking fence" and I and everyone else disregarded him for a few critical moments. Then his knees gave out and me and two of my friends were prying his hand off the fence while another held his head up and smacked him trying to get through and when we separated him from being locked around the steel wire I checked his pulse and it wasn't there and I said calmly for my female friend to go into the house and call 911 and to not let anyone including his mom slow her down. I began cpr until I was lightheaded and about to throw up. I traded places with a friend and talked him through how to do it right. But I knew. I didn't say anything because I didn't feel it would help what was helpless already but yeah... I felt him leave. We were subsequently all briefly arrested because "these fucking hoodrats were probably playing some sick game" but when the fire department came and found the source of the "alleged" current... No apologies were given nor would they ever be enough.
I did not know about the mishearing incident in regards the name and it took me to that evening in my friends backyard and again to when I was googling death in june and hit the enter key before I got the name of my town and state in.
She Said Destroy coupled with the thinning of the veil between worlds my proximity to the dying of my best friend, during the throes of my first heartbreak, would set a bitter theme for my entire life. Bitter like wormwood. Bitter like lies.
Rest in peace Martine Jose Torres.
I'm really sorry to hear about your friend and the circumstances of his passing. It is strange how it links you to Di6, but I find life is full of these strange connections. Again, I am very sorry to hear about your friend. Thank you for sharing.
Mi más sentido pésame, wow
M
lollipop l
@@liviasalgado momokkkonokok
La muerte viene de maneras tan subrepticias que en un pestañear hizo lo suyo y escapó. Cuando mi papá murió por una hemorragia interna debido a un cáncer de estómago no me lo esperaba. El cáncer fue tan fulminante que no se pudo hacer nada. O cuando una amiga muy querida de la universidad acabó con su vida, ir al funeral y luego, con mis compañeros, parecer bar irlandés, tomar sin hablar hasta quedar inconsciente. Una persona con la que hablaba de nuestros delirios y fantasmas habitando nuestro pensar. Una constante incomodidad al vivir que con el tiempo se vuelve un dolor infranqueable. Es difícil no extrañar a los cuales siquiera te has despedido.
Espero que Martine José Torres esté en la dicha, con dios o el silencio.
Honestly, when it comes to stuff like this I only care if a person has actually done something or is actively part of a harmful group. Using military and fash aesthetics to create a certain vibe isn't that uncommon, bands like Laibach and Rammstein have done it successfully for much more mainstream crowds
exactly, this video kinda fall into every trap built by these bands of the era... Front 242, Laidbach & so many more... I would even go further, if a nazi had built a genuine important artistic masterpiece, I don't think this should be destroyed or ignored, and if we look at it, it is not. Cinema students in the world knows about Riefensthal, her work is still analyzed in many Universities to this day. It is a thing to judge morally someone, it is a better one to make the difference between the art and the person, even better : between the action and the person... Identity is something that moves, it is a montage of many facettes.
You know that "hate speech" is a thing, right?
@@thomasdupont7186 So, you must be one of those people that doesnt mind of Roman Polanski being a serial pedo-rapist because he does "good movies".
Na, you cant separate art from person, bc art comes from that person's hands.
I mean, i can build an ivory tower maded totally of parts of murderer women's corpses, yes im a psychopath, but maybe the art is beautiful, right?.
WTF go to the fucking therapist dude, it will be good for you.
@@ShonenBeats Yes i do, my country was occupied, and my two grandfathers fought against nazi while one the French resistance. But that does not erase artistic talent. Whatever the person is in real life, if the painting, the technics etc is new, interesting and beautiful well then , it just is and should be studied, to erase their work (because they were fascia) is just autodafé... Another consequence of hate speech by the way. Hell is paved by good intentions...
@@thomasdupont7186 cool, but for me, as an artist, i can assure you that the art is.the artist itself, recreating abstract shit into a some kind of defined form, to make that part of himself, something unique that has his own life. Imagine doing that with some nazi speech. Also, Di6 kinda be edgy and super "omg im so dark these shallow people will never understand", but they're sound is not that unique, there is other bands that sounded the same in the 80/90 without the nazi sht.
The whip hand logo was lifted from the Nazis, as well as predating them. It is a reference to Goetz Von Berlichengen, a nutty and very interesting German mercenary from the 14th and 15th century who had a mechanical iron hand made for him after he lost his hand in a battle. The 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division used the symbol of the iron hand, very similar to the one DIJ uses, as a divisional marking on their vehicles, as well as being named after the man.
The Junkyland reference is likely eluding to the Swiss providing heroin addicts pure medical grade heroin administered by medical staff in clinics rather than allowing them to seek it out on the streets and possibly use dirty needles.
From what I can remember, the whip hand is supposed to be related to themes of BDSM/sexual sado-masochism.
Yes, and it seems to be inspired by the logo of SS division 'Götz von Berlichingen'.
so i have a bdsm patch then
The symbol takes the old British adage “having the whip hand” as in having the upper hand advantage over others and fetishizes it into domination in sexual relations.
I love how the music of Death in June forces you to confront and study it. No matter where you think his political beliefs lay you can't really passively listen.
No, you just boot fuck out of their sad wee fan boys.
🙄
yes you can, is a product of consume, it's not that deep
@elsapito1312 let me rephrase that for you. I love how Death in June wants you to confront and study their music. So they contrive it in such a way that people who are inclined to think more deeply than crass consumerism can easily dig more deeply into it.
Keep consuming eventually you'll win the capitalism LOL
@@DarkandWeird and i will respond the same: they are just not that deep
I did a similar journey with DIJ in the 2000s and ended up joining the Yahoo group dedicated to them, of which Douglas P. was an active member as were a number of fascists of all stripes. The conclusion I came to is that Doug is an opportunist more than anything and enjoys flirting ambiguously with the imagery and the controversy of “is he or isn’t he?”. But at the end of the day from my experience in that group, he showed that he’s more than ok with encouraging the support of fascists in his fan base and engaging with them. The very fact that he has to give such a long winded “white dudes typing paragraphs” answer when asked if he supports fascism etc. instead of a very simple denunciation says lots. Not sure if that Yahoo group is archived and accessible, but it tells you plenty.
"White dudes typing paragraphs" in response fuxking killed me 🤣 God bless🙏
yeah, I think the "I concern myself with music, not politics" when so many of his lyrics are clearly at least playing with political implications really kills it for me, it's so blatantly dishonest
Based
He was asked by his distributor to give a thorough statement on the albums in question. He explained himself well.
Fascism isn’t exclusive to white or European people
Douglas P. is an artist whose output evokes feelings and rarely approaches solid subjects directly. He does not need to explain his art any more than a horror author needs to explain, once or a hundred times in reassurance, that they do not sit in approval of demons, killers, or monsters that eat children. His fascination with symbology or Aryan mysticism is scholarly and measured and it is counter-intellectual to accuse anyone of sympathizing with a subject simply due to their willingness to study it. His affectations are not fascist, his words are not, nor his actions. He contributes to the art of the individual, unlike the majority of his detractors, who create nothing and seek only to tear down, never to build up. He lives life the embodiment of an aesthetic. He owes no one anything but his artistic expression.
A very good review!
To everyone interested, I highly recommend reading a book called 'England's Hidden Reverse', which is basically a documentary book about the whole British post-industrial scene, such artists as Psychic TV, Nurse With Wound, Current 93 (who have a gorgeous masterpiece 'A Song For Douglas' dedicated to Douglas P.), Coil, and, of course, Death In June. The book analyses how these artists were influenced by other media and how they influenced each other. I guess, it should shed more light on the DI6 controversy, but it is also a very fun read as it is.
It is an interesting book. Perhaps the most interesting thing about it is that Death in June receives very little coverage in the book, even though Keenan's revised introduction talks briefly about the political controversies. They are largely glossed over in the book, which Douglas was not interviewed for (by his choice).
I did chuckle at Steven Stapleton's comment in the book that he "fucking hates" Death in June, describing their music as "derivative shit", expressing his bafflement at David Tibet for collaborating with DIJ/Douglas, and adding that "I'd never have anything to do with Death in June" [pp. 272 from the 2015 Strange Attractor edition].
@@scarymonster7765 I'm sorry, I read the book many years ago and I felt like DI6 is covered as well. I think it's still a good read for those who are interested in the topic. The book revealed how to approach some works of the scene, eg I didn't dig Coil it but liked them much better after reading it. Context matters :D
@@DivuarDon't get me wrong, there are a few dozens references to Death in June throughout the book. I just think their presence in the book is unduly small compared to their significance in the the real scene (in my view because the author was scared of the association tainting the other three bands, all of whom had sorely fallen out with Douglas by the time this book was published).
That said, as Douglas did not want to be interviewed for the book, it would have been hard for Keenan to give proper coverage to DIJ.
@@scarymonster7765 Yeah, I agree
There's two books about DEATH IN JUNE specifically:
MISERY AND PURITY by Robert and the 460 page opus VERBORGEN UNTER RUINEN by Aldo Chimenti.
Haven't read the first one and I'm not sure if the second one was translated into English.
Just in case people are interested...
Every old man is obsessed with WW2, I remember a time when The History Channel exclusively catered to this obsession.
Growing up in the mid 70s every wooden school desk seemed to have a swastika crudely scratched onto it...WW2 had only happened a few decades before and the weird post- cataclysmic atmosphere of the era hung strangely in the air, ubiquitous but simultaneously a rather taboo subject...hence the themes reflected in 'Thin White Duke' era David Bowie, 'Station to Station', Joy Division etc. accurately depict the haunted mid 70s psyche. Also films like 'The Night Porter' made during this period...
@@NigelJacksonthis guy said it perfectly. World order changed drastically after the end of the war
I wouldn’t say only old men / Hitler and WW2 documentaries is one of the most watched on UA-cam .
someone may have already noted this,but" hail the white grain" refers to the rune Hagalaz...hail that falls from the sky and ruins your crops..its called the white grain.Also clears away decay and is a symbol of death and rebirth...this life this pain.
Hey - this is great, I did not know about this at all. Thank you!
that's amazing!
its also about him getting his black blown out
Funnily, i kind of assumed hail the white grain was about having to work in fields and being salty about it - much as the swans early songs that spoke about violating and being violated were really code for management screwing over workers, i thought death in June was singing coded songs about fighting the bossman as well. But i also thought there were aspects that could be related to how aids was so feared and people were shunned during the eighties. Symbolism was cool in the eighties. I remember pretending to read joseph Campbell and carl jung… symbolism about controversial topics was kind of the norm for the goth//industrial band scene. At the time i don’t recall people taking it seriously. Most people didn’t even know death in june back then . They were the band the “real” goths listened to when the posers barely scratched the surface and only knew of the cure because they heard a catchy cure song on top 40 radio in the late eighties 😂
FYI I just watched the documentary Hitler - A Career (1977) on Netflix and it ends with the words “But what ends when the symbols shatter?”.
It does? Holy shit I didn’t know that thank you
There’s also a documentary on Nazis and the occult where they use that phrase at the end .
@@jeromealexandre3391 What's it called?
@@jyberpvnk The occult history of the third Reich
@@jeromealexandre3391 what one?
Death in June have existed in my world since the 1980's. I remember when "The World that Summer", "Brown Book" "The Wall of Sacrifice" were first released. Those records are sacred music to me. I was a introverted weirdo(still am, but more relaxed about it) and I connected heavily with the music. Listen to "Red Dog-Black Dog" at a reasonable volume, by yourself, in a dark room, late at night, possibly after indulging in substances and enjoy the feeling of sheer terror that will envelop you. Audio terror. The music is what I loved. In addition, as far as I am aware, Douglas P has always been open about his sexuality. His sensual view of men has always been there in his lyrics. If members of his audience were Skinhead politic types, then those people are paradoxical. Or homosexual fascist?? Thanks for your fine work and giving us a chance to discuss.
Thanks for your detailed comment!
Im glad thusfar the conversation has stayed mostly civil (mostly haha) from both sides of the political coin. The contradictory nature of Di6 and Douglas himself is what got me scratching my head and inspired this video.
I will give that Red Dog / Black Dog thing a go! I did something similar many, many years with Merzbow in the dark whilst stoned off my nut and it was horrendous yet really fun at the same time haha
My interpretation of DI6 (which was helpfully crystallised by your video) is that Douglas P is obsessed with the truest meaning of the 'esoteric', that is 'hidden knowledge'. I think this informs the use of masks (hiding identity), religious references (given how religious stories are 'recycled' by different faiths for different ends), political iconography (inviting the listener to do exactly what we are doing, to try to interpret and perhaps even find our own meaning). I don't think this means he isn't fascist though, although in the end I don't think it matters. If he is tho, the fact that he is 'hiding in plain sight' by using such references and claiming hidden meanings would be very appropriate
He's not fascist. He's not anti-fascist. He simply is.
I think the cribbing fascist style thing was quite popular when bands like Death In June were in their formative years, but as the years passed most of them realized how fucking dumb that is and stopped doing it. The ones that kept up with the schtick probably aren't doing it just for shock value anymore.
you're severely misunderestimating their dedication. Sol Invictus had their work put on neo-fascist music compilations. fuck em all. even if you want to use it for shock value should get burned with acid.
Now is the perfect time thou to use it to shock. Leftist are on psychotic path yelling everything nazi, fascist and racist. Boycotting artist and brands they never even listened or bought anyway 🤣
Give them more to chew!!!
Based
yeah like joy division and siouxsie and the banshees all used nazi imagery
What's "dumb" about it, in your opinion? And do you think the current crop of entertainers promoting rainbows and "equality" are one day going to stop cribbing communist crap and realize how dumb and evil that is, too?
Great video. Death in June was one of my favorite bands when I really started to branch out to darker musical styles outside of extreme metal. I never really understood Douglas’ view on politics but it never seemed to be the fore front of the music so I sort of just shrugged it off. A few years ago seeing a lot of antifa protests of bands and the whole “cancel culture” thing it reminded me of DI6 which made me revisit some interviews with Douglas and random articles. One stating that Americans have a poor understanding of Nazi Imagery with European bands since America’s experience with WWII was much different than all of Europe. Also, I came to find that Douglas is merely fascinated with WWII imagery and themes, I remember in his documentary he stated as a child he would buy WWII military helmets, supplies, etc…(pretty much what he said in his statement to the German Government). I think at worst Douglas doesn’t care about extremist views (adaptation of Nazi symbols and collaborations with Boyd Rice but thats a whole other story). Thank you for making this video, gained a sub from me.
Thanks for the kind words and for the sub. I agree entirely. Cheers!
Death in June is such a great band.
Damn str8
this is actually crazy I thought you had around million subscribers. You deserve a lot more recognition. Such a well made video and the research is amazing. I congratulate you
Thanks man, that's very kind. I've only done a handful over the last year, this one seems to be blowing up for some reason, it's a juicy subject I guess haha - thanks for checking it out!
I met Douglas P & had quite an in depth conversation with him. He was a very intelligent, complex man. I never saw him as racist but controversial.
Death in June is a political band. Their politics is inspired with esotericism, decadence and fascism of Julius Evola. That's where all that BDSM, gay and misogyny comes from. Homosexuality was also widespread among SA troops, which was one of reason (even minor) why Hitler got rid of them. Douglas also is a fan of Strasser brothers and one of them was murdered in the Night of the Long Knives. Their ideas can be described as more "socialist" national socialism or Third Position, a political idea which was becoming more popular in some circle around the time The Crisis was formed. There is a reason why Death in June use all those symbols. Also they have a very big fetish for Croatia, a country I come from. They have played for Croatian fascist paramilitary group in 90s to raise money for a field hospital. They have also shared numerous Croatian fascist symbols, had t shirt with war criminals and published music by Croatian guys that served in those units. There is no doubt that Death in June sympathise with these ideas, but they turn it into this mythical and esoteric view of decaying Europe because of modernism... despite the fact that their whole ideology is a modernist decadence.
Very well said. I love Di6 for years, but this is the unpopular (and to some even painful) truth.
We can discuss all the esoteric and mystical, but you cannot be blind to the facts you stated- that Douglas is a fascist sympathizer... and a degenerate. Heilige!
@@Zhuntovany.Kavalir I mean, they actually expressed their views long time ago quite openly before they realised that this "mystery" is better for promotion:
"At the start of the eighties, Tony and I [Tony Wakefield was one of the original members of DIJ] were involved in radical left politics and beneath it history students. In search of a political view for the future we came across National Bolshevism which is closely connected with the SA hierarchy. People like Gregor Strasser and Ernst, who were later known as 'second revolutionaries' attracted our attention."
Source: Misery and Purity: A History and Personal Interpretation of Death In June by Robert Forbes (Jara Press, Amersham 1995), p. 15.
Thank you for your in depth insights. I have a PDF of Misery & Purity that I have started reading.
@@TroubleInTheTown Aren't Croatian fascists hardcore catholics? I would have thought it would go against Douglas' pagan views
I discovered DIJ back in the late 80's and really found the sound very beautifully haunting. As the years passed, my interest in them waned as I discovered more music. However, as of late,like you, I have found myself a bit conflicted in regards to the imagery and symbols and all the military garb and his dress. Watching your video and hearing some of these songs I hadn't heard in quite a few years, I realized what had captivated me to begin with and that is the music. That being said, just because someone has a fascination with a particular subject does not necessarily mean they are supportive or sympathizer of that subject. While on one hand, I'd like to give Douglas P the benefit of the doubt, I also believe his usage of Nazi imagery can't be ignored. He truly is an ambiguous figure. Thank you for your informative research here.
I recently started to dig into the Death in June discography and I was feeling an enourmous guilt due to the fame of this band haha. Great to know that there is a video that can at least present me information about their controversial artistry before I read news and articles about it. Great content! Subscribed.
Thanks man!
I’ll point out that I learned a TON from the comments section here too. There’s a lot of really good takes here if you want to dive deep :)
The guilty have no pride.
I always took "drinking German wine" to be a coded reference to gay oral sex. The phrase also crops up in the Throbbing Gristle song "Very Friendly".
I didn’t know this - good catch too with TG
My interpretation is that the band is representative of an old world esoteric revolt against modernity, their use of symbolism invites interest into further meaning behind their lyrical themes, and it keeps those who understand around while letting the rest of the world move on. Douglas P’s association with other artists such as Boyd Rice who has done spoken word work in a few Death In June albums, has lot of controversy surrounding his own character and aesthetic ties to National Socialism, (an individual I believe deserves his own video) but like Boyd Rice’s own use of that imagery with his own explanation of said use, I believe the use of these types of imagery convey many abstracted ideas not exclusively related to “racism” or “fascism”, and this same idea goes with Douglas P, an individual arguably fascinated with old world symbols and runes. Good video.
"Old word esoteric revolt against modernity" is a pretty spot-on label for fascism
@@ipo1103 wow, what a deep thinker you are. Lol
@@sigurdfenrisson2446 thanks!
So based on that, you are too young to remember use of various smybolism in the (early) 1980s in punk?
@@johnwilliamdaly7453 nope, and I'm not to young to remember how they stopped doing that ironically once actual unironic nazis invaded the scene!
Most of DI6's influence came from Yukio Mishima. Books like confession of a mask and death in midsummer clearly influenced Douglas. Also there's a boxset in tribute to Yukio and Jean Genet who are two of Doug's biggest influences. Brown Book was also an album that Douglas made to pay tribute to all the people who died during the AIDS epidemic. He's a gay man himself as well. Really not sure why people are so surprised about a guy who came from the era that birthed Joy Division, which is a literal nazi reference. Not like I care though the music is amazing. Post rock and neofolk forever :)
I love yukio .
I think Douglas P is a Fascist, but not a Nazi, or at least not a Nazi as we know Nazis to be.
I think he laments what fascism, or National Socialism for that matter, could have been as opposed to what it was. He identified with Strasserism and that sort of strain within the Nazi Party that were ultimately eliminated by Hitler. While Strasserites differed from Hitler enough for Hitler to eliminate them, they were still Nazis.
Parallels to this could be the Momentum strain within the Labour party that are under the same branch but are still opposed to the Blairite/Neoliberal factions.
He's certainly influenced by Mishima, the Japanese ultranationalist. He's also influenced by Julius Evola, the father of fascist philosophy. This doesn't make someone fascist per se, but it's obviously influential in forming the views of a person.
He laments the death of the west, which for far-right thinkers is attributable to WWII. For Douglas P, the death of the West as it were didn't occur when Germany lost, but when Strasser, Rohm, and the rest of that faction of the Nazi Party lost.
@@Thomas-cd6im that's actually really interesting. I might have to read more about this!
And Mishima is fash sooo...
@@fatheroflies so what
I really appreciate your well-rounded and thought-provoking commentary with regard to Douglas and Death in June. This video was a delight to watch. Thank you.
I can see a parallel to Death In June and one of my favorite visual artists, Francis Bacon. Both were artists who were commenting on the chaos and brutality of the post-war world in which they existed in a visceral way. Bacon did it with paint and Douglas did it with his voice. Their lives are also very similar and interesting. I know that Douglas is a fan of Gilbert & George (another visual artist) and I wouldn't be surprised if he is a Bacon fan also.
DIJ is nothing alike Bacon, don't insult him
Watched this like a good movie in the cinema. I am thankful for making such an expanded version and I really appreciate your contribution put into this. Seriously gotta give it a second time. Thx!
Thank you for the kind words. I'm really glad you enjoyed it.
This video is a such a hidden gem! One of the best I ever heard about Douglas P.! Thank you! I belive that such aesthetics and lyrics of DI6 are about reflecting sorrow that these European dreams of superiority were initially doomed to end with countless deaths and broken lives of whole nations, and about people whose ideals turned into a nightmare for them. It's rather depressive and decadent music about such a sublime, tragic fall. And these nazis who listens to DI6 because of runes and totenkopf and antifa who cancel concerts, equally ignorant and shallow persons for me.
This is probably one of the most sensible comments I’ve had in the (near) year I’ve had this video online. Perfect!
I'm just recently getting into death in June. Always heard he was a Nazi yadda yadda yadda. I've been obsessed with a nausea. I definitely get the sense of what you're talking about in that song. Your comment really helps contextualize what this artist is about. I really gotta dig deeper.
Weird to equate someone's personal music and artistic preference with overt (actual) fascist acts of bullying, cancelling and attacking. They are not the same, even remotely. They are not even in the same ballpark.
"Nazis and Anti-fascists are just as bad" Literally no. You're on the road to fascism if that's how you view the world. One group wants to literally kill people like me. They say shoot us in the back of the head, burn us alive, be happy that a gay night club gets shot up.. Look up the Sure Foundation Baptist Church if you don't believe me. And that's in the supposedly progressive Pacific Northwest. Nobody is safe in this country for people like me and people like you are helping the nazis by turning a blind eye
@bc2578 gateways and such, not that I agree that we should automatically shut down anyone who flirts with aesthetics but it is and was a very planned and thought out way of using imagery to appeal to deeper sentiments. Those images exist with inside a cultural context that cannot be disentangled from the horrors of the second world war
this is so interesting, i only heard of death in june fairly recently in 2022 through a blog that was sharing current 93 tracks and i hadn't listened to much since then but i clicked this video because i recognized the name and now i kinda want to do my own deep dive into douglas pearce and his music
Also a fan for some seventeen years and in short I'd describe DIJ-Douglas as post-modern. It seems few have considered that interpretation. The whole (post-)industrial genre/style can be interpreted as such. There's an emphasis on Wittgenstein and how it matters little what words mean, but we should look at how they're used. Same with symbols, said the industrial/avant-garde artists and musicians. Like Laibach's cover of Queen's "One Vision": they used the same text, but translated to German and in that new context it sounded like a Nazi rally song with its "one race, one creed, one vision". Douglas' statement to the German authorities was both in itself and in content very post-modern. When I heard "Rose Clouds..." and "Brown Book" got banned (I think "Brown Book" because it features the entire SS Horst Wessel song) I bet Douglas wondered what took them so long. He knew what he was doing naming the album and song "Rose Clouds of Holocaust", we knew what he was doing, the German government/department of culture knew what he was doing, but the law isn't written by poets. It's my personal opinion that taking at face value the imagery and content of (post-)industrial music & art is more comfortable than seeing it through the lens of post-modernism. I've read much on post-modernism, yet still I'm unsure what it "is". It's a great intellectual effort and perhaps people would rather ban than have that discussion. I'm not just speaking about Germany and this case, but overall, like governments banning horror movies, video games and such.
In the end, however self-critical or ressignifying you may be trying to be, words have real connotations and meanings and mean real things. And Pierce treats them too lightly and dishonestly imo. I feel that is also the weakness of post-modernism.
@@guilhermemarques9438 I agree, but words and their meaning constantly change, as language is a living organism. We also need context to understand them, not just etymology. If you think post-modernism is weak I understand your position better and in can see why Pierce appears to treat themes and words lightly and dishonestly. On the other hand Pierce is an artist, not a philosopher or politician, or even entertainer. Go figure that artists see and interpret the world in different ways than regular people. Isn't that the point of art, to provide a different perspective? Doesn't mean one should like it (ie the art), but mere exposure to it imo is an invaluable experience.
@@ZombieDragQueen It is the point of art to provide a different perspective along with all the other questions of pleasure, delight, reflection, even alienation. But I think to demote the artist of all responsibility of what he is doing just because he is an artist is contradictory in this way, even condescending. If you are being exposed to challenging art then surely the point is to have some kind of dialogue with it, not just treat it as alien or clap and laugh along and dismiss it for being so special and different (which I am not saying you are doing, just trying to make a point through a UA-cam comment).
I suppose Brecht is one big influence on this for me that clarifies this exact issue.
@@guilhermemarques9438 I guess it depends on what one demands of the artist and their art and if the dialogue is between the viewer and the art or the artist. It makes me think of Ray Bradbury; I remember reading he held a lecture at a university and discussed how "Fahrenheit 451" was about how the TV makes people dumb distracting them from reading books. A student argued that the book was "actually" about censorship. Bradbury became enraged, like "who the hell are you to tell me what the book I wrote is about?!" and left. What do you do when you explicitly tell people what your art is about and they tell you it's something else entirely? And what does it mean? That you're a shitty artist or that people don't know how to analyse art/culture? Where do you go from there? Compromise your artistic vision by "dumbing" down your output? Do you advocate for world wide reform of the education system to put heavier emphasis on art/culture analysis and source critique?
Death in June was recommended to me back when I was in high school in the late nineties by a boy I really had a crush on. I worked at the futon store just across the street from a record store, so I would go there to spend my money. Anyway, one day I was in there with my cool and edgy Joy Division shirt on, because back then no one else except people who liked Joy Division wore the damn t-shirt. He was like, "hey, try this. If you like Joy Division, you'll probably like this." He then handed Rose Clouds of Holocaust to me. I was totally enraptured, of course, because ~Christian~ (the boy) had recommended it, much to the irritation of my boyfriend, lol, because I listened to it on repeat. I never did get together with Christian, alas, but I DID get to piss my parents the hell off by wearing a t-shirt with a nazi symbol on it because of Di6 (also sold by the same record store... it was a different time) which is very ironic because I'm effing Hispanic, haha! I admit, I adored the irony and embraced it full scale. I guess I've never really thought too much about Douglas P's politics because I've always assumed it was tongue in cheek. Perhaps a bad assumption on my part I guess? I still don't know and I'm thinking that Douglas P is going to keep us that way until the end. The dude seems like the type. I dunno though, he reminds me of people who I used to know... people who would only let you in on the joke if you were in their inner circle. Otherwise, yeah. Totally committed to their bit. I guess... I'm okay not knowing. I don't think I've got to know to listen to music tbh.
Haha, I enjoyed that story. I wonder where Christian is now? Lol
Woke
So, you have a boyfriend back then, but you were simping some random dude at the same time? Not so nice hahah
@shonenBeats most gay men are cheaters
Very interesting! I'm a big fan of DI6 and I will add a few things I uncovered over the years that have made my eyebrow rise. He made a track called Black Sun Rising which looks a lot like an allusion to the black sun, a symbol that originates from Wewelsburg. This castle was seen as the SS HQ. This symbol was never used before the war and is said to have been designed by Wiligut under the supervision of Himmler. Douglas also has this symbol on his guitar since some years. This track also makes allusions to the fall of the "white world". "Neutralising decay" is a recurrent theme in DI6 music, as the death of symbolism in western culture. The cover of the album Alarm Agents looks like cute harmless birds but it's the insignia of the Dutch Nationale Jeugdstorm. Another big one is the track Brown Book that is Horst-Wessel-Lied, the anthem of the NSDAP... The title of the album can also be seen as a connection to the "brown shirt" known as the SA. Douglas also wears a lot of SS camo uniforms, SA and SS daggers, an SS ring, SS sniper face veil etc... The back of the LP of Euro Cross clearly has a celtic cross white power style on the back... He collaborated a lot with Current 93 that also has disturbing tracks like "Hitler as Kalki" and with Boyd Rice which most famous track is probably "Total War" a strong allusion to the Sportpalast speech... There are so many other things but this is what I remember just now. He also stated that he was interested by Strasserism and National Bolshevism. Anyway, I don't think he is a nazi, but most probably into the occult, symbolism and most probably nationalism.
Wow, thank you so much for these insights. I have wondered what the birds on the Boyd Rice collab were, thank you for pointing that out. The song "Black Sun Rising" does leave a lot of questions open for me but I excluded collabs for time reasons.
There's a few things you've mentioned here that I'm not familiar with, so I have some digging to do. Cheers!
Oh noe,not nationalism! Man made horrors beyond our comprehension ok but not nationalism!
Imagine hearing Hitler as Kalki and being disturbed lol
The black sun is just an inversion on the old pagan sun wheel. The majority of despot dictatorships will utilise inversions of ancient symbols and sigils.
Here are a couple facts, no not debating you these are facts. You are wrong about Hitler as Kalki, if you get your hands on the single read the booklet. Tibet makes it VERY clear he is horrified by the Holocaust and the song is a reaction to that. Again, not a debate.
Secondly, I suggest going beyond amateur levels of research on things like symbols. The VERSION of the black sun is unique, but the symbol itself, mostly with 5 spokes instead of 8, have existed for centuries. Look up Zierschiebe.
Brown Book has to do with Nazis killing gays, which he is. This one is a stretch regarding your theory, the other two are not questionable.
So glad I clicked on this video. I had heard of Death in June but knew absolutely nothing about them...until now. I will definitely be checking out their music when I find the time. Cheers.
Really enjoyed the video and would to see a follow up.
I appreciate that I am very late to the discussion and for obvious reasons, haven't read all the comments but wish to give my two cents on a couple things for anyone interested in continuing the conversation (I'll try to keep it at short as possible):
- Crisis' history shouldn't be overlooked as formative to DI6, since Crisis were accused of racism, despite having blatantly anti-racist songs (although they were provocatively titled). I think this is important regarding Douglas generally not caring to defend a "correct" interpretation of his work. And the fact that he does seem to simply enjoy being provocative and contradictory is closely related to this. "The Humble Brag" from the his latest album seems particularly mocking towards what some may deem the social justice hive mind.
- Some leanings to Strasserism/ Nazbolism (or something in that vague direction) were apparent in DI6's earlier work. "Sons of Europe" and "Death of the West" seem to mourn the influence of America upon Europe and idolise the Eastern bloc. I'm generally a defender of Death In June but the "monkeys from the zoo" line in "Death of the West" definitely seems suspect (possibly racist), especially as Tony Wakeford changed this particular line when he re-recorded the song (after his own shift away from extremist politics). "Fields" is also a bit suspect to me, not strictly pro-Nazi, but it expresses regret of the war between the "brothers" Britain and Germany. Which surely has a whiff of racism about it.
Also, the "The once proud brownshirts now stained by, Engineers of Blood, Faith, and Race" line in "Till the Living Flesh is Burned" seems to mourn the Night of the Long Knives. Douglas' personal politics seem to have shifted (it's hard to say when) towards more of a "NATO-ist" Western chauvinism (perhaps even neo-conservatism with his support of Zionism). Little of this is particularly apparent in his music, though he has made statements against Islam and "Takiyya" is doubtlessly about the London bombings. I would also like to note that I don't think antisemitism has ever been apparent in Death in June whatsoever. It's also hard to tell who wrote what exactly with the earlier material.
- For me, much of Death in June's work (it's pretty apparent even from "Nada!", especially Rain of Despair" and "Doubt to Nothing") is actually pretty nihilistic in tone. I've seen the interpretation that "Carousel" is about disillusion with politics. Whether this is correct or not, I find it compelling. I don't buy that Douglas is actually a pagan or even particularly spiritual (he's expressed clearly that he doesn't believe in an afterlife). "Peaceful Snow", "Rule of Thirds" and "... Symbols Shatter" are all albums that feel particularly mournful, and in my opinion, Douglas seems to have been fixated on his own decay and mortality. I personally interpret a lot of the spiritual/ religious themes and the imagery of extremist politics as relating to a longing for "meaning", "belonging" and "purpose" in life. "Good Mourning Sun" certainly seems to be a song about depression (or at the very least, feeling pretty "down" about life). This theme also goes back to the early work. "Nothing Changes" (and its reference to Spengler) seems to express the feeling of being in an inevitably declining civilisation. On this note, "Runes & Men" seems to have two layers to it. It seems to simply be about loneliness on one level, but the allusion to "greater times" seems to portray a longing for historical significant. If we were to go as far as to assume that this is some sort of reference to WW2 and its time period, I don't think it suggests a desire for genocide or racial purity so much as a desire to be part of something more grand and significant. I realise that that may be a bit of a stretch but it's my own personal interpretation of one of their most popular songs.
I think that's all I wanted to add. If anyone bothers to read this, I apologise for the length of this comment.
I discovered Death in June in the 90s.. but always shied away from them. I'm kind of surprised because I've always been interested in complicated characters.
My impression of Douglas P. is that he is a very introverted person who feels that he knows what he's thinking.. and is more entertained then bothered by how people misinterpret his work. As long as he has a small inner-circle that 'gets him' he will always been satisfied that is his message. In his mind the controversy isn't there and he only benefits when we see passed it as well.
I saw NON with Death in June in Denver back in the late 80s. Loved the performance. I find both fascinating.
This is very interesting music. Very relaxing to listen to, almost drone-like in its quality. I do quite enjoy DiJ, even though (or maybe because of) it is somewhat "taboo". The ambiguity of the message is purposeful and its meant to spark introspection. And I first heard about them in 2017 (rather late), but they are my favorite folk artists and also I enjoyed the "Essence" album quite a bit. My favorite albums are "Brown Book" and "Rose Clouds", and I also enjoy "Operation Hummingbird", "Take Care & Control", "The World That Summer" and "The Wall of Sacrifice". "Peaceful Snow" is another nice relaxing album you can listen to on a snowy night in a cabin somewhere. When I was in the military, I would often secretly listen to DiJ on my headphones as I was walking around on the base, and it felt somewhat appropriate. :)
As my father knows... I will go into the snow.
Thanks for sharing :)
In 1996, when I was 16 years old, I first listened to death in June.. And I still do
TND
Amazing video man, learned a lot from it. Only thing i can maybe give insight on is that the line about heroin in lausanne is most likely quite litteral. There where loads of heroin heads in switzerland during the 90s-00s. The problem has dimished consequently since, but you can still find free needle distibutors on the big places / train stations in zurich / lausanne / Geneva and Bern. Btw, i suport it cometly that he takes a dump on the country after having his show canceled, there are a lot of far right people and the majority of the country still thinks switzerland where "the good guys" during the war without questioning how theyr country actually contributed to all the warcrimes of the era.
I passed through Lausanne in 2008 on the way to Interlaken and was a bit surprised by how shady it was. Totally did not meet my perception of Switzerland as an outsider, but also it was no worse than any other major city, I guess.
It is interesting and I suppose refreshing then, that some lines of these songs can actually be taken at face value. Thank you for sharing your insight. I am learning every day because of uploading this video. Cheers!
underrated video and channel, I didnt know what to expect from this video but you did an amazing job, bravo...personally I believe that if someone makes beautiful art and doesnt hurt anyone or commit direct violence they really get a pass and a huge amount of leeway from society that we wouldnt otherwise give to the average person...di6 is a great example of this...personally my favorite track is "Little Black Angel", and I used to sing it and hum the tune for my little sister as a lullaby and would call her my little black angel because she has jet black hair in a family of straight blonds. I was maybe 15 or 16 and she was around 9 or 10, now we are both adults and that song really hits the feels hard thinking about singing it for her when we were both kids
Thinking about your mention of Varg and the fact I also like Burzum alot too so maybe we give them even more of a pass if they make REALLY good music 😅😅😅
That’s a lovely story!
So many great responses to this thoughtful video. I'm sure we're all aware that the punk band Crisis, Douglas' earlier band, was specifically anti-racist and anti-Nazi. Further, Douglas sacked someone from DiJ for being a (temporary) member of the National Front (a white supremacist org.) If actions speak louder than words, those speak volumes. Younger people may not be aware that it was somewhat more common in the 1970's and 80's to adopt Nazi and other militant imagery for reasons unrelated to a belief in white supremacy. I won't even say it was merely shock-value, though that was a factor. Much like adopting Satanic and Occult imagery, it was a means of setting one's self apart from the crowd. There was a certain fascination with that period of history in the 60's/70's/80's, and it led to many artists flirting with this imagery. Obviously, that hasn't aged as well as basic Satanic and Occult imagery, but in for a penny, in for a pound, it seems. I doubt Doug is about to change his whole schtick at this late stage in his career.
If someone reading select lyrics wants to draw a racist conclusion, its certainly possible based on the imagery and the particular word selection. However, as is seen in many of the comments, the interpretations lead elsewhere if viewed through a different lens (his sexual orientation, his diverse literature influences, etc). His love of Mishima is no secret. Really, is it a stretch that the name Death In June is simply a case of a young man subtly ripping off Mishima's Death In Midsummer? Midsummer=June. It's a lot more likely than "I mis-heard someone", or other strained theories.
Douglas refuses to cater to the accusations by decrypting the meaning behind every line that someone flags as problematic. I believe he chooses words such as holocaust because they fit in with the aesthetic of the band, and because the meaning can be stretched artistically into other areas. (I mean, Christ....how boring would music be if every line were meant to be interpreted literally?)
I am an American who lives in Berlin and all together in Germany for over 20 years.......DIJ........has a bad reputation because he plays and quotes Nazi esthetics....and the Germans do not take it light. DIJ is an homage for Ernst Rom because he was gay who was executed in June......and Douglas is an open Homosexual. The neo Folk scene is a right-wing influenced musical genre who always quote WWII Nazi propaganda. Der Totenkopf is not the only symbol DIJ played with.....but the bkack sun, ruined, the hummingbirds, etc etc etc.
Douglas has been interviewed a few times and told interviewers that when writing lyrics he plays with words so not everything has a meaning
I think there is a phenomenon of escalation around these types of things.
Like Black Sabbath was shockingly occult when they came around, but it was largely imagery. Then you had bands like Venom “doing the occult and evil thing for real” in their time and then later bands like Mayhem (for a time) actually devoting themselves to death, nihilism and suffering…
Similarly you can see a trend in the 70so f bands flirting with fascist and/or nazi imagery, think Thin White Duke-era Bowie and Joy Division.
DIJ is the next step, plunging deeper into the far right imagery.
Not to say that any of these artists just did it cynically for shock value, but when trying to invoke an emotional response with this type of abrasiveness, there is a tension between what came before you that create a an escalation when trying to transgress.
Thank you so much for this very informative and mature take on this. I've been listening and appreciating DIJ for several years now and have sometimes had mixed feelings about this or that lyric/ music sample (See for example "Death of a man") along the way. Your video has helped me, a non-white, non-european fan of the band, to clear some of these doubts and to feel reaffirmed on what i've always considered to be the truth about Death in June: a challenging band, that is worth its artistic weight in gold. Now. To your question around minute 23:00 ... for me the lyrics on "Because of him" clearly refer to the human race in general and not to a specific race at all. It's a song full of hope. But that's just my humble opinion... and, for that matter, since we're on UA-cam, “He that is without sin among you, ..."
Thanks for this, my friend. I'll rewatch it again these days. It almost always crosses my mind to listen to some All Pigs Must Die. Funny enough, it's usually around May. Haha!
Thank you for taking the time to check it out!
A great in depth analysis video on a great band, thank you so much for putting time into this! There were some great interpretations and meanings behind the lyrics I previously didn't think much of, especially the white grain.
32:00 I always thought this refers to Jesus, as the line is followed up with "the crucifix on the wall protects not much at all"
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed :)
Thank you for doing this video, it was very interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter, as someone who like myself was attracted to the music first, only picking up on the controversy later. I feel that if you really, truly listened to the music itself you would hear exactly what the guy is about. It faces the great difficulty of ethics, military and power, and it also is full of life, and a love of life. The albums are beautiful, more like a play with high and low points, tragedy and reprieve, than a party record. Coming from Gen X it's not at all confusing how a band could look military but actually be critiquing his own people's history. Kids who grow up in military families didn't have a great social position if you were a child in the 70s. The real fanatics in your culture were truly terrifying, and beat up their gay kids. You had gangs looking to harm you, there in your own school classes, acting like it was all nothing that nationalism extreme. Meanwhile the hippies thought you were stained or something by the militaria, so you might get shame from their families for what your family does. It was an era that belonged to the hippies, and so when the 80s rolled on, I think a lot of artists were like, look things are not all good just yet. People are already forgetting that your folks, my folks, some of them turned positively bestial. So this music is way more connected to artistic vagueness, with the intent of stirring up nothing short of a reality check. It was terrifying to be a gay kid in the pre-90s. Queer TV shows did not truly exist! We were invisible, and our forebears were carted off to camps along with the Jews. So when you're young but you're a military brat, you *are expected to be very tough* but you want to be tough on the nazis specifically, so what you do is make fun of them. Confuse them, throw some sand in their eyes. Make it clear the costume is still bullshit, their symbols' power is broken, and there are people who have not forgotten their tricks. But it goes deeper than this, into the history of spiritual beauty being stolen by powerful people. Anyway, everyone I knew that liked the band, were good people with no interest in racism and very much against it. To the last. That was good enough for me, they were good people, I was safe, queer folk were always safe, the disabled were not shamed by my friends! Nazis wouldn't be able to get within a hundred miles of our friendship bonds! And we all thought these discs are beautiful, and we knew this artist risked his safety, every gig, to critique power. So I'm glad you picked up on that. Please remember, regarding that lyric, there is a different pack of lies associated with the holocaust (the Shoa) in the 40s. The British government was aware of the extermination camps, but did not admit, inform, or act on this in a way that many people feel was appropriate and timely. While it is the past, and most people are like, puh-leez let's move on, yet I do think this work is for its time part of the moving on. This is a post punk artist who is keeping the memory alive, of how people can be seduced by symbols to the point of murder. It's a very classic artist's move - remind you to keep a sober head about the dangers of real art... but then, to have an all-inclusive dance party afterwards where we remember to live. I have always felt that the use of the death's head worn by the Gestapo was an unfortunate choice. But transgressive work did result in a more open society, having lived it there is no doubt of this to me. I have some ties to Jewish folks and for their sake, I would not play around with the symbols or a swastika, I couldn't wear that symbol it was too extreme! But the anger we felt about a society that thought it could put us into camps, it felt pretty extreme in my 20s to be damn sure. We weren't going to let them have any of it, not the symbols, not the vampish fashion, not the primary color red. You get to keep none of it. Here are some queers wearing your stuff, reminding you of what you did to people for stupid measly symbols. Ok that was heavy, phew. Time to dance! Transgression very much stole back even the 'coldness' of an authoritarian regime and made it hot! And we won.
That is kind of the point of the art probably, the nasi were suckers for symbolism, and it turned them into political zombies. There is also the irony of the British royal family being related to the German royals! But that's for another rabbit hole. This ambiguity draws people into discussing who we are, as human beings, without calling for anyone's destruction. And it was weird and diy so in its time it sure didn't look like an attempt at propaganda or PR. It was designed to be unappealing so the boorish didn't come around and harass the kids in their scene. It was dangerous to be a punk for a time.
There's another kind of purity that politics can't touch which I think is more likely in the poetry - the depth of feeling that few beyond a piece of music can carry. Through music a purity is achieved that transcends borders and words. Sometimes you don't realize quite who the intended audience is. This is a vital work that helps address inequality, there is nothing I have found in the work that threatens or condemns equality. It is catharsis, but also the use of bardic nondualism, to negotiate a peace between the dark of warfare, and the light of our more loving nature. Not long ago, some hackers were like, we found these albums in your stacks now we're going to destroy your name. And yikes it's been a gazillion years since I spun them, in part because they remind me of a time in my life that was difficult for completely unrelated reasons. But I kept them because I had enjoyed them so much. I understand the problem of the cover symbol, but it's so hard to describe how people were not savvy about their own history even that much closer to the last big fascist outbreak. Sympathy with fascism quote at the end, also problematic and provocative. And yet what is so crucial to understanding the rise of Nazism is that it went far beyond the racism of Hitler. It was a theft, by deception, of symbols to lure socialists away from genuine labor movements. Crazy right? But yoga was starting to catch on, for example, all over Weimar era Germany (the very liberal time period just before) during which things like queer rights were being openly demanded. The Nazis were like, we're like you (snicker snicker) but we're not into gay stuff! Join us, the "National" socialists! And the trick was a huge terrible tragedy for the whole idea of a happy human society. People really believed that enlightenment, and international cooperation were on the way. And so every penny was spent getting everyone to blow each other up instead. So that's how I read the provocation of the symbol - they stole symbols of harmony (swastika, red flag) for an evil purpose - shattering their meaning - and later a lot of punks in my time were stealing symbols of evil and using them to flip criticism back onto power. And yeah, even saying one wishes they could just order people around, be a fascist and ban everything you don't like. Don't be too sure he doesn't mean, he'd like to give the bigots a taste of their own medicine, if only it wasn't against everything free. It's scary to be queer, still is but it was way worse in our relatively freer societies, just in the 90s. Some don't do rainbows and it's all good, the 60s playbook still works - some fight back instead. And btw putting a rainbow behind the sun is absolutely asking to be assaulted by nazis, not a vague move. He's 100% provoking the bad guys into questioning themselves, and it needs to happen, we must never forget and this music helps you remember, and process the rage that comes from the memory, and then it reminds you of life. It is good art.
I may be wrong, I know about as much as you do. Maybe there's some detail of a bathroom stall conversation that damns all my impressions as wrong. I'm willing to look at any evidence. But for now, I'm definitely saying this music is anti-fascist, except he'd hate that for being political, so I'll try to do better, it's definitely anti-hate. Though it's a complex topic, the reconciliation he mentions is a real thing that is needed to prevent resurgence movements. After war, all scripts of "needful" hate of an enemy must be dismantled, or the enmity becomes permanent. And there are just a lot of good German kids who deserve a chance to show who they are, without prejudice. There's that too. So, I'd like to thank this band for showing me how to be tough, intense, yet not lose my sense of beauty. What a difficult balance to seek, what a challenge it is to grow up different in all this noise.
So glad I got this video recommended, it is very well done. Also reading through the comments makes me feel as if, no matter what we agree on Di6's politics, this band has moved some people, be it only by music or making us think about his lyrics. I guess that's what matters the most in the end - we were all drawn into this abstract, romanticised world of old times that Douglas conjures up with his music.
Hey man thanks for making this video, I've listened to very little Death in June but I'm very interested in how people perceive their symbolism. My take, as a Jew (not a religious one, but a Jew nonetheless) is that nazi imagery is something that has a profound impact on many people that not only can, but should be explored in art. My complicated feelings regarding Death in June stems from, as you point out many times, the vague and often contradictory nature in which it is used. While I absolutely love art that refuses to explain itself, for Death in June it means that I can't listen to them without thinking "does the person singing to me want my family exterminated?" And, well, that's a painful thought. This isn't to say that Douglas P has a moral obligation to clarify his stance on nazism (I don't think his statement at the end of the video clarified much tbh) but it does mean that I'm somewhat excluded from the club. I can live with that but it makes me that much more curious about why he's continued to present himself the way he has. It's not like he's unaware of people like me! Anyway, I could go on for hours about my feelings, both positive and negative, towards nazi imagery in music but I really appreciated the way you approached this video and I'm picky as fuck with this stuff lol
Great comment. I would add to that that if Douglas P. is a homosexual then the Nazi's would have exterminated him, too. As you know, the Nazis didn't just murder Jewish people.
I just don't think any of this is really so complicated, nor do I think that Pearce is actually being vague or contradictory. He's just what some people today refer to as a "nazbol." It's basically working class socially conservative and right wing critics of capitalism and modernity. It's an older, dissident element of the right wing which has lots of different tendencies, some of which are racist and ethnonationalist, some antisemitic, but others not so much. There's a long history of this political tendency in almost every western European country and the American version of it could be found in the earlier paleoconservative tendency. Pearce's lyrical themes in songs like Death of the West make this politics obvious, so I don't see where the confusion is coming from. It's unlikely that Pearce is an anti semite, since he played in Israel before fans and ran around on stage with waving an Israeli flag while the crowd applauded. I don't think he was being ironic. He was just dispelling the rumor that he was antisemitic. Some people blame jews for capitalism/communism/materialism, or they see jews as possessed by "mammon," as Hitler himself put it. But you can be a critic of these things without believing that jews are responsible for them. My guess is that's where Pearce's politics are.
I'm not saying this to be snotty or mean or anything, but I find that people who think Death in June is vague or mysterious really only think this because they're not familiar with political history prior to the Boomer era. Like a lot of people don't even get that socially conservative critiques of capitalism are a thing at all and equate right wing politics with Thatcher/Reagan free market apologia or libertarian individualist social darwinism or whatever. These are people who don't even realize that there can be such a thing as a right wing avant garde, which is where Douglas P is firmly situated. It's like when people try to interpret the politics of Pasolini's Salo without being able to put the film in any coherent historical partisan political context. The film just becomes unintelligible but this also makes it appear mysterious to people who have no means of interpreting it.
I always thought that the name Death in June could be a reference, at least partly, to D Day, which occurred on June 6, 1944. Obviously there was a lot of death on that day. Also, it was the sixth day of the sixth month of the year, which could explain the 6 that is shown below the totemkopf image on their album covers.
Douglas said it references the night of the long knives
Hey, thanks for commenting- D Day is a great one, it all lines up.!
For what it’s worth, I mentioned this in a comment on DIJ’s Facebook years ago and got a “like” presumably from Doug P himself.
It's referring to the Night of the Long Knives.
@@Call_me_Dali nooooo? he said it can be meant to interpret the night of long knives the name actually came from a misheard word during the early days of the band if i can recall
Great video! About the origin of the name I've always thought it was also about Normandy landings or D-Day of WW2, which happened in June too.
Also....I do belive , "he's disabled ", is based on another song from the Peoples Temple Choir as well. The choir version has 8 or so versions.
The whole, I'm a musician and I don't play politics thing is rendered ridiculous when he uses multiple Nazi symbols and juxtaposes them with the pride flag. Whether he's doing it haphazardly or thoughtfully, playing it straight or subverting it, he's definitely playing politics. Saying otherwise is just a cop out.
I completely agree. Found it really interesting he would even play that card.
@Homem Minhoca Well he's gay so there's that
@Homem Minhoca probably because the gay pride movement never supported harming anyone. The connotation of supporting imagery associated with gay pride isn’t exactly comparable to imagery associated with Nazis.
@@mv9653 social Justice Warrior doxxing and calls for raping skeptics with “girl dicks” is not peaceful though.
@@mv9653 Ever heard the saying "Stonewall was a riot"? The gay pride movement openly calls for harm as long as it is targeted towards those they believe infringe on their agenda. They wholeheartedly believe that the destruction of people and property is justified if it's for social justice and don't deny it.
Good video. I think you did a pretty well job at analyzing their lyrics and statements, can't say I would have put in the same amount of work. As for my own judgements, I do strongly support the idea that Death in June are infact fascist and Nazi sympathizers. Researching them myself after finding some not-so-great information about them gave me insight into how many folks view their band as fascist or far-right. For one (to add onto what your video did not cover), many other neofolk bands such as Current 93 and Rome have distanced themselves from Douglas P, siting Douglas' outright misogyny and bigotry. Notwithstanding this, many of DIJ defenders often site how Douglas is gay, or is at least bisexual. Even though Douglas has been quoted as saying, "I prefer to suck, white, uncircumcised cocks of a certain age so I suppose that rules out quite a few races and religions in one huge act of sexual discrimination. However, that's natural selection for you. It follows on that, of course race is important to me!" That quote just by itself should be a giant red flag to any listener who cares about not supporting bigots. Going with that, "...uncircumcised cocks..." should be an obvious jab at the Jewish practice of circumcision at birth.
Additionally, DIJ's association with local far-right groups and militias in a given area is less than redeemable. DIJ often welcome these groups and uphold them, sparking controversy in a given area. Mind-- I can go on about their local venues: the sale of Nazi symbols, including the upright pink triangle which represents the patch homosexuals had to wear in Nazi Germany, the Nazi dog-whistling, etc. What folks should be taking away from DIJ is the abundance of "coincidences" that very much align with Nazi and Third Position sympathies. Their use of literal Nazi imagery, their namesake, their songs worshipping the state and arguing that there is a constant enemy, the sale of Nazi symbolism, Douglas' racism and misogyny, reactionary gnostism, and so much more.
What we must understand about DIJ is that these coincidences are not coincidences, but dog-whistles to "those in the know": fascists and fascist sympathizers. Your work in this video is great, but I cannot shake the feeling you're brushing things off as simplicities without going deeper into the meanings of their messaging. As example, attributing "Hail! The White Grain" to some gospel lore without understanding the use of the word "Hail" as a dog-whistle very often used by Nazis to mean something similar to "based and redpilled", and "The White Grain" being an actual term for race purism and the continued corruption of the Aryan (or western European) race by impure races.
Overall, we shouldn't be taking these topics lightly. As a person who has taken college level courses on the Holocaust, Nazi imagery, and other genocides, I think what we shouldn't take away from this video is DIJ's "edginess", but rather how Nazi sympathizing groups get away with these kinds of outright dog-whistling and bigotry. In my earnest opinion and practice, I would not support DIJ or even fathom listening to their songs. Call me a wokist, but I don't want to support a group that aligns with the practices of Hitler.
That's pretty much where I'm at, in regard to Pierce and DiJ. Good post.
Hey man, agree with the above, this is indeed an excellent post - thank you for writing it.
I have learned so much about Di6 since posting this video because of comments like this. I cannot argue with anything you have written.
Same, just way to many small pieces adding up and just real hard to ignore at this point. Doesn't help with other neo folk bands distancing themselves from them. Look at the group Lifa and how they had to make such a vocal anti-nazi statement.
I have my doubts that a gay man who writes anti-war songs can be any sort of fascist. He even has outright denied it during interviews. Also he dissociated with David Tibet because Tibet was friends with Tiny Tim, who ironically is/was homophobic.
With some of the stuff like far right groups and militias do you have a source? I don't mean this to sound facetious, if you can't find them I'll start digging myself. I only have been tangentially familiar with Death in June outside of the music produced and the only reason I know about it is that an Indian White Nationalist (big oxymoron there but it's more common then you think) showed me neofolk as a genre so it always was a background thought that "Are these guys nazis or just obsessed with a nazi-chic styled aesthetic"
For what I know of him and about him from his interviews/personal documentaries, he describes himself more in the realm of "Old School Left" and basically "Nazbol" (in the non-meme way).
He's commonly wrote love letters to Homosexual Nationalist figures be it like Ernst Rohm or Yukio Mishima via themes of songs or albums even. From my perspective of being adjacently in that realm of politics, he seems to have his sympathies but also just has a fascination with the Nazis and their military aesthetics, I believe in his Snow Bunker Tapes documentary, he remarked about first discovering his infatuation back when he was a kid and managed to buy a Wehrmacht soldier's tunic then having to hide it from his father among other things.
He's certainly one with symbolism and is not ignorant of it. I do believe to some degree he plays with being controversial, similar to Boyd Rice but I do believe, similar to Rice, they have some weight in the topic. Rice for example is very knowledgeable of these topics and remarks about more esoteric figures in love letters on his instagram. Not really in the edgy way neither like you'd see of him in the 80s. Douglas is similar in that regard albeit his presence online is rather minimal in comparison.
I'm not going to directly personally assign him as an ideology as he is the only one who can decide and dictate what he is but in short, what I can deduce, he has his sympathies. In whatever fashion they may be. I do know he isn't shy of his sexuality neither, thus you see his usage of pride colors. Best thing that can be ascribed is he's maybe along the lines of some form of Social Nationalist, that's what I generally take it as.
National Bolshevik.
Eyyyyyy, good to see you in the comments section here! The algorithm recommended me this video and as I was scrolling down this video I saw your comment.
Long live Doug P and "But, What Ends When the Symbols Shatter?"
Hit me up sometime, I forgot your Tele. MexFⒶ$H has mine~
- C A L I
@@roninvaquero Hey man, good to see ya here aha, I figured it'd be bound to happen that someone I knew would stumble across this video lol
N yeah I got this in my recommendations as well and thought to myself that no one really has made a video essay on DI6 before afaik, so I figured to give it a watch.
Anyhow, is this Populist or am I mixing you up with another Cali? My memory can be hazy with usernames sometimes
My own research led me to conclude that Pearce's frustration and eventual contempt with extreme left wing politics, as far back as 1970s, led him to taunt the left with often ambiguous right wing suggestive symbology. His music has encouraged me to become far more open to contradiction and subtlety. Great video, thanks.
The Snow Bunker Tapes will always have a special place in my heart. I don’t listen to it very often anymore because it reminds me of some very bad times but DIJ is really in a league of it’s own.
Peaceful snow>>>
You will never understand because you don't want to understand.
Hi, thanks for this video! What are the footages from 0:25 to 0:40? And where can i find them?
Hey! Thats the music video for Humble Brag off Essence! It should come straight up on a search :)
@@linesinwax4996 thank you very much!
Thanks to algorithms for presenting me your video. Great take and vibe how you present your journey. The name DIJ sounded very faintly familiar but I never heard their/his music or I don’t remember. Will definitely dig into it. Cheers!
Judging by views, you should make this a series! You can always review Death in June albums - I would view that!
Yeah this has done way, waaay better than my other videos. I will do more Di6 videos one day :)
Cheers for commenting!
@@linesinwax4996I hope you do because this is fantastic
Mate I just stumbled upon your channel, I coudnt stop watching this.. as a 44 year old man growing up in the punk scene I have never heard of this band or this fellow.. it is highly intriguing and I am so grateful that the youtube algorithms brought me here. Please Do more like! You have a new subscriber! Sending Love from the prison colony known as Australia. This mini documentary on this band and subject is truly masterful work, so Thank you mate!
Thank you very much for the kind words, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Pretty good video/documeentary! My admirations!
Being a fan of Death In June since 2008 but never dug in the controversy arround the band.
Death in June is personal to Douglas P. It's mostly about his own experiences and feelings, it's not a historically storytelling like Sabaton nor is it a band made just for political messaging, like for example Screwdriver or some left-wing equivelants. Nor is it a joke, however, or a mere provocation. His experiences and feelings are coloured by his homosexuality, his mysticism, his sense of tragedy and sense of being a European. And the part where politics come into play is that the experiences of other homosexual radical nationalists like Mishima or Röhm. Their stories and the mesmerizing esoterism and beauty of fascism clearly tap into his sense of tragedy and beauty. It's not purely political, but the radical nationalist surrounding is clearly important and something he can relate to (through those historical figures).
I think it's clear that Douglas P has strong radical nationalist symphaties but to typify it like that is boring and essentially leads astray of what Di6 is really about. He's an artist, for fucks sake, not a dull-minded politician.
Hail refers to the rune Hagal meaning hailstone which in rune poems is also called the "sickness of snakes" which also refers to a Boyd Rice (who is definitely a neo-nazi) project. The importance of the sun in those lyrics is because the sun is important in Nazi symbolism such as the swastika, the black sun and is also a reference to the Sieg rune which is used in "SS" and together with the Hagal rune is a play on "Sieg Heil". This is why Hail is followed by an exclamation in the title because it doubly functions as Heil! and as the "white grain" which he seems to be using as a metaphor for racially pure human seed.
In cases like this, it seems important to focus on the actual influence of music. Sure, he might ambiguously use symbols of terror in his album covers, song names, and lyrics, but the sound and message of his songs express themes of doom and desolation way more than they could ever convey hate. You're way more likely to find skinheads at a System of a Down concert than a DiJ concert, solely because angsty people are drawn to metal and some of that angst can coincide with hate and supremacy. I use this silly analogy because SOAD is a group with deliberately politically charged lyrics and Armenian influence, so you would think that a band like that would attract a politically conscious crowd. But people will twist the intentions of artists all day long, and even warp their songs to fit their agenda. At the end of the day, I think Douglass P has a WWII fetish that he tried to playfully sneak into his music, but people caught on more than he would have hoped. Being a sardonic and ironic individual, however, he probably let the fascist rumors ensue because he doesn't care what people think of his true self. After all, no one can truly know an artist except for the people in his private life.
Do you think you could do a video about Boyd Rice? Considering he collaborated with Death In June & Is an interesting character over all, I think a documentary on him would be good.
Hi HQ
A few people have brought this up. Outside a few collabs with Di6/Douglas and the God & Beast album by NON, my Boyd Rice knowledge is nearly zero. I know many consider him to be an unsavory character, or a controversial one at best, but I've always found his discography kinda intimidating. But hey - who knows?
Cheers for commenting.
Have you heard of the band Strength Through Joy? It's a band Douglas played with in the 90's. They're a lot more explicit about their beliefs than Douglas is in his interviews. An excerpt from one of their interviews with Heathen Harvest
"We are not particularly concerned with whether one race is more intelligent than another. What is more important is the existence of differences between races which are fundamental to the biodiversity of the planet. There are some scientists today who are trying to deny these differences as an argument against racism, but the conception of race cannot be restricted to an analysis of human genes. There are a host of other factors to consider like culture, environment, physical and spiritual characteristics."
My take on it is that Douglas and a lot of his collaborators have this sort of spiritual-racial world view. It seems pretty clear from his association with Michael Moynihan, etc.
At the same time, I'm a person of color and I love Death in June. Even though they seem to have a euro-centric racial element, it's far away from aggressively racist music like screwdriver. Thanks for making the video.
I have not - thanks for bringing this to my attention. Doesn't sound* particularly groovy.
@@linesinwax4996 Strength Through Joy was the project of Richard Leviathan, who is a South African Jew. He now sings in his neofolk-pop combo, Ostara. Politically, Richard Leviathan describes himself as "a left-leaning libertarian", with a "generally liberal, non-racist, latitudinarian outlook on life".
Regardless of the fact that he has explanations for these things, you have to wonder why so much of the symbolism and terminology he uses just so happens to have been used by the Nazis.
Shock value, and it works.
Probably because the Nazis adopted symbols in order to bolster their cultural footprint. They didn't create any of the symbols.. they simply appropriated them. We should not be giving these symbols up to any political movement.. let alone the far right.
@@xkeyscore4913 Eh, I'd say that there's more to it than that. Not to say that Douglas is the 2nd coming of Ernst Rohm. But there is meaning to symbolism.
Also there's plenty of us in the Neo Folk movement outright, and Death in June did pretty much start said movement.
cause he's a goddamn genius, if you don't like his art, just go listen something else... ART is ART; real one is difficult to find, and DIJ are definitely PURE ART. Simple as that
Douglas P. is a gay son of a Highlander battalions veteran and he probably grew up in a strength military family home with a lot of war memories and reverence as it was common in the 1960s. Indeed the analogy with Röhm, the sacrificed, the homosexual, the undesirable is a fundament of DiJ in a time when punk and chaos was somewhat the mainstream esthetics.
Regarding "Switzerland -- junkyland": Switzerland had its own heroin epidemic in the eighties and nineties. Most famously, Zürich had an open drug scene, where addicts basically occupied entire public places. People were dying in the streets, and pictures went around the world. Platzspitz was internationally dubbed "Needle Park". Part of the solution was handing out clean needles. To this day, drug consumption is particularly prevalent in cities in Switzerland (compared to the rest of Europe), as studies of the sewage show. These days probably more coke than H, though.
Hey, thank you for sharing!
Very interesting video essay, and have had the same thoughts over the years when listening to Death in June and hearing certain lyrics. My take on it is that it's a use of overt and evocative symbolism as to highlight the role of symbolism in art and political discourse. Here, certain themes, words and phrases directly raise a red flag to the listener; however, generally we don't pay attention to the ubiquitous symbolism used by artists, politicians etc which flies under the radar. However, it's all very much open to interpretation, as all art should.
I agree - although I still don't know what to think now that the dusted has settled around what I wrote for the video. Some of this symbolism is a bit on the nose.
Thanks for commenting, and for watching. Cheers!
Such a great video! Really love the essay format
Keep it up :)
Thank you :)
In my opinion, the main goal in using all the Nazi aesthetic imagery (whether explicitly as in uniforms or symbols, and whether implicitly as in the lyrics) is to create precisely this "contradictory" (to use his words) in which the listener is always there wondering, "Douglas P are you a Nazi for real or not?" as if he always wants to push himself a little bit further to be told "come on this is blatantly a Nazi message."
In all of this I think he just has this exaggerated fetish for all that aesthetics (and I wouldn't rule out references to the sexual sphere) and that he doesn't really have any political affinity with the far right, he just likes to challenge the audience almost to mock them (it's impossible to think that the phrase "rose clouds of holocaust, rose clouds of lies" wasn't deliberately meant to arouse as much shock as possible while still keeping an explanation).
I think the only real "fault" that I can give him is that he has never distanced himself from a very large component of his fanbase that really has far right ideas, I think it's a bit of a clever bastard choice to keep everyone happy (while contributing to this contradictory feeling even in the fanbase composition itself). If I was him I wouldn't feel really comfortable knowing that there are real Nazi in my fanbase, and that's the only thing that keep my thinking about the fact that he may not like far right ideas, but certainly he doesn't despise their money.
However, art is art, it must also have this component of "annoyance," and regardless of some of its fans the Death in June project has created out genuine masterpieces of the neofolk genre, and I will forever continue to listen to them, even if I have to tell "get fucked" to everyone who likes DI6 because he is a legit far right fucker.
I think it’s up to ones own interpretation what it means.
It’s easy to apply all these arguments to different topics and conclusions.
Confirmation bias.
It’s art and creates conversation by stirring the pot.
I love it.
And a friend of mine philosopher by accident gave me this very good(I find definition for art: art is made to make people discuss with each other. And regarding to some other interesting threads in this discussion. About the use of symbols( wichever their nature. For me I can reduce the dialogue to who is wearing wich symbol and what is their purpose? Because: for exeample I remember a tattooed man, covered with svastikas, n avis or racists ideas at all: te fact was as simple as: I like the shape, form of this symbol so much, each time I find a new one I have to get it tatooed on my body. So, do we have fear the symbols or the people wearing them not telling what their agenda is.
Be cause you can take down all the statues you want, but as long as a name remain on a pedestal…
@@gaelpache6776 You're recalling 'ManWoman', who was revealed after his death to have been a white supremacist all along.
Is there a Spotify playlist? :)
There's not, but I can make one if you like? 😉
@@linesinwax4996 I would love to! What’s your profile name there?
1st rate collage of a brilliant artist. Thank you.
That said - after reading reading so many comments I have to think of another favorite artist of mine.
The Fall - Who Makes the Nazis?
bad bias tele-v?
Not the guy who wrote elastic man! RiP Mark
I think Douglas is just fascinated with German WW2 aesthetics and likes to tease people.
i think he is just very fascinated by nazis and their attire i don’t think it’s weird at all or anything
@@eliascharles2345 yes
I think there's two things to keep in mind about this
first is this quote by Sartre about Nazis:
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Nazis love ambiguity. They thrive in it. They love triggering the libs and pretending it was all a joke. Just to be thought provoking.
the second is the saying that if there nine people at a table, and a Nazi sits down at the table and no one stands up or tells the Nazi to fuck off, there's now ten Nazis at the table.
taking that into account we can get a pretty clear picture of Douglas P's politics. When you point out there's Nazis sitting at his table he denies being political. When you express concerns about his lyrics he plays games with words and blaames you for being the Nazi for trying to censor him. His actions speak louder than his words. If he had the clear disdain for Nazis that he said he does, he would denounce them and not play word games with liberals and leftists about who the real nazis are. He would keep the Nazis out of his shows, not claim that to do so would be him getting dragged into politics
I'm sorry but as a descent of people who fought against nazism, I'd laugh if fucking Deutschland asked me to explain any symbolism in my art, too.
That being said, I discovered this project today, got nazi vibes and hopped in here to learn more about it before choosing to continue to listen or not, so it's not about your whole argument but the final letter.
The mental energy the people in this thread are expending to convince themselves that it’s ok to consume art by Nazis could solve the energy crisis.
thank you so much for this video, i always asked myself some of these questions, nice to know im not the only one
Let me help with most of the context. Douglas P. is an openly gay fallen-away conservstive Catholic. As to the “unlucky Jew” it is a direct reference to a crucifix, as in the line “the crucifix on the wall protects not much at all.”
What's more interesting to me than the music of Neofolk, is the amount of collaborations going on; often with artists with no fash leanings whatsover. I discovered DIJ, through Current 93, which in turn, I'd come to via Coil. Frank Tovey (Fad Gadget) did a collab album with Boyd Rice, but has never exhibited any of the same politics (I would even say, he embraced opposing liberal ideals).
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO. Even though i sometimes get scared listening to dij I also appreciate it as music healing the dirty dark history. All us gays and nerds should not be afraid to look at and work with darkness. It's extremely real. It's anti fascist art, that makes us look horror in the eye.
these times are doped up on individualism and identitism. We need to stay curious. Always lead us to love. kiss and peace to all.
This is great documentary and i love Death in June so much, Rose clouds of Holocaust is my favorite album, it is so relaxing.
Great video !
One note on the lyrics about Switzerland being 'junkyland'. It could also be a reference to the swiss government approach to the opioid crisis. For example, you can look up "Platzspitz" and its open heroin market in the late 80's/early 90's. Additionally, Lausanne has had it's own problem with junkies.
Anyways, could be a double entendre, just food for thoughts.
One thing you missed about "But, what ends when the symbols shatter" is that its pretty much a covers album...covers of Jim Jones' "peoples temple" choir album "He's able". For instance, "The mourner's bench" is based on this: ua-cam.com/video/yEApUQaChOM/v-deo.html
It's art, self expression, entertainment. Lifestyles of the creative minds. Nice video 😛
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but Because of Him seems to be written about Jim Jones. The ending chorus really drives it home for me.
Thank you for this video. things I can contribute: 1) Because of Him is a play on Jim Jones Peoples Temple choir song by the same name. I think Douglas P twisted the lyrics around to show that those leaders religious or politcal can lead to tragedy. 2) unluck Jew (my opinion) is a Jesus reference- Jesus being born Jewish and later in the song references “crucifix on the wall” so I just bridged the concept of their being allusions in the lyrics.
Isn't He's Disabled inspired by Jim Jones and his sermons? He used to say that god was able. On the other note, I've been listening to di6 since I was 13. I used to take it very seriously, but as an older teen, and now as an adult all I see are symbols. You know, there are events in Douglas' life that explain his attachment to such symbols. On top of everything he's a post-war child. There's a documentary movie about him where he talks about his family, disconnection from his mother, his father's death and last project they had done together.
Hey, cheers for commenting!
I only found out after the video about the Jim Jones stuff, I have popped a correction in the notes. This has been a learning experience for me, if nothing else 😄
Is that documentary Behind The Mask? I watched it a few years ago and remember him talking about his family that way.
Death in June has been a huge inspiration for me since I first heard their music around 2017. I found their art during what I consider to be the worst period of my life. Death in June gave me the courage to escape an abusive relationship and begin my ascent from that low point. However, for the last year the mystery of Douglas' politics has often dominated my thoughts. I have been longing for a comprehensive summary of his politics, and I feel like I finally found something I was desperately missing through this video.
Also your editing and narration is absolutely brilliant. Great work
Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad to hear you've worked through the shit into a better period in your life.
This vid is in no way the final word on Douglas P though, there's been so many takes here in the comments as well as additional info, I've learned more since the video was posted than I did whilst making it haha
Take care out there!
@@linesinwax4996 If you are accepting suggestions for a future video I would like to hear more about the far right elements in Douglas P's audience rather than the man himself. The thing that has always bothered me the most is his use of precise language that leaves him enough plausible deniability to rebuke accusations of racism without alienating the fascists in his audience. Others in the comments have mentioned that this is a common tactic in far right circles. Whether he does this because he harbors real hatred in his heart, or he is just terminally edgy I cannot say. However, even if you assume the most good faith interpretations of his lyrics, his music still undeniably appeals to fascists. I think he knows this and choses not to challenge it because he thinks it would compromise the integrity of his art. I still enjoy listening to Death in June from time to time, and as I mentioned before it is of personal significance to me. I also think that certain people can often be weirdly puritanical about politics in music. I try to be open minded with things like this, but Douglas P's refusal to unambiguously say "nazis fuck off" has always sit with me the wrong way.
This would be a tricky one to talk about (the audience that is). I've had comments here from all across the spectrum.
I would love to do something like that. Similarly with what draws people to stuff like NSBM or right-wing ideologies in general.
And I agree entirely with what you are saying about Douglas. I guess we will probably never know the true answer.
I was at one of Crisis's last gigs (maybe the last one I dunno) at the Moonlight in Hampstead. What year that was I can't remember, very late 70's or early 80's. I liked Crisis! Anyway, a drummer boy type came onstage (who it was I have no idea but he was dressed in what I considered a fascist style). Anyway the drummer began beating his attached drum. As he did this stage smoke began spilling out. The drumming continued and the smoke continued, now pouring from the stage. Slowly, the whole place filled with a thick fog. I ended up stumbling and feeling my way out of the place along with everyone else... Later, the story went; they were making us feel a little like being in a gas chamber... I know that some of DIJ's fans were def promoters of fascism but I tend to think this Douglas guy is more complex than that. Growing up in the first decades after the war many of us were fascinated with WW2 and its imagery. I used to draw German helmets, skulls and insignia on my exercise books at school, it didn't mean anything deep for us, we grew out of it. Maybe all this stuff just stayed with him... I never got into DIJ, just isn't my thing.
Really enjoyed this. Love Douglas and Di6, and I think he explains it well himself in the quote at the end of the video.