sam bob it sucks compared to an R8 really? The gtr smokes the r8 and the reliability is more than likely better on the gtr than the r8.. german cars are shit
Luis can’t you read? I said as a daily driver, GT-Rs are extremely harsh. I owed an r8 and sold if for a GT-R, so I know what I’m talking about. Yea German cars are not as reliable as Japanese, but r8’s are just one in a million, I never had any issues with my r8, and maintenance wise, it’s about the same price. Don’t think because it’s a Japanese car the parts are cheap, it’s equally expensive
I’ve driven both r8 and gtr and actually own a gtr, I don’t regret it yes it’s clunky yes it’s not fun to daily but the car is raw and super quick maintenance Forsure is cheaper on the gtr and if you know how to wrench you can do most things. I did consider the r8 but the pre facelifts don’t look to good and the maintenance is a lot more expensive per extensive research I did.
The reason why I went with GT-R - more room. Mods friendly, easy to make power. and big trunk for groceries :) and started a YT channel, do you still own yours?
@@StreetDrivenDaily nice 997 turbo would be nice, or one of those new caymans they look sick . I’m hopping the prices drop and I’ll have more options. I made some good money when I sold my gtr since prices went up
if nissan made it a higher price tag and infiniti then itd be exotic..or would make u think its exotic..lame how u guys fall for price. cause its more expensive its more exotic lol
gtr should be banned from usa indefinitely, thanks to them hogging everything like they always do, the r32 gtr my dream car tripled its price now beyond affordability.
I bought a 2018 GT-R and I love it. I'm certainly not going to listen to two people that have never owned one. I thought this video was what owners have to say. The GT-R is very smooth and comfortable to drive. I'm 6'6" and it's my daily driver, roughly 50 miles per day. I have no complaints. The engine is easy to work on and isn't in the rear and it's got a very large trunk. Can't say that about the R8. GT-R is much much much cheaper to own and maintain than an R8. I had a choice and I made a wise one going with the GT-R. You have to be an idiot to think you can buy a car and sell it for roughly what you invested in it after 6 months to a year. A Mclaren looses 50K in the first year. That was almost my 1st choice. GT-R oil change $300($55 for DIY), R8 oil change $650, Mclaren oil change $3,000.
They weren't wrong , go drive a CBA GTR and you will see . They are very harsh, night and day different between your 2018 . DIY oil change on the R8 is not much more then GTR . I've done oil changes on both cars before
I don’t get how they were wrong, they didn’t say don’t buy a GTR, they just said which are the most attainable for the average person. Big difference between spending 100k+ on a used GTR vs spending 60k
Kris Carpenter well they never mentioned that the transmissions were upgraded multiple times. And not to buy pre 14 because the 14+ have the best transmissions for horsepower add ons. They just googled a couple facts and made this. Like the “huge weight” change in the track edition it’s not even a noticeable difference
Thank you for spreading the wrong information about the GT-R making 0-60 mph in 3.8 secs. That's totally wrong. And I'd choose a GT-R over an R8 any day.
We LOVE the R35 GTR! This video was made to document the differences for each year starting with the 2009 GTR. Although we think the DBA is the best value for the money right now, depending on your circumstances you may want to get an earlier CBA, especially if you plan on heavily modding it! Let us know what you think is the best year GTR for the $! Until... we can legally have the R34 in the USA! Also, please Subscribe! Help us get to 1k!
These guys are giving incorrect information. The R35 GTR went on sale in 2007 in Japan. America didnt get the R35 until 2009. Also. The 2007 did 3.5 to 100kph. Later models have been doing 0 to 100kph in 3.0 seconds and less. How come these guys not know these simple facts about the R35? Wow!
Without launch control, it crawls to 60 in a slumbering 4 seconds. No one is driving through the city launching their car from light to light. Plenty of people are driving through the city, mashing the gas pedal from light to light. High HP cars use launch control to keep DOWN the amount of power going to the wheels until traction can be had. The GT-R uses launch control to jack UP the power going to the wheels.
Google mines the gold nuggets. Search for GT-R 0-60 without launch control. I couldn't care less what it's 0-60 is with launch control, because if I bought the car, I would never use that feature. I don't even know if my car has launch control
@@TasteMyStinkholeAndLikeIt well thats your choice not to use it. Its like turning your car to low boost and testing it then saying that as fast as it can go. Which is stupid really. But thats your choice.
@@conradsealy9603 You clearly don't understand launch control. Most cars, particularly RWD cars, like the Corvette Z06 (650 HP/TQ) would go nowhere if you mashed the gas pedal without traction control on. It would sit in one spot spinning till the tires exploded from being ripped apart. Powerful RWD cars need traction control to REDUCE the power going to the wheels so they can actually get moving. The flaming gay GT-R needs launch control to ADD power to the wheels so it can move as fast as possible. My car is RWD, so I have no need to use launch control to ADD power to the wheels.... I already have too much power going to the wheels, as my torque hits 412 lb/ft at very low RPM.
I wonder if you queens are going to point out that the 2012 GT-R scored EXACTLY the same time around the track as the 2017 GT-R Track Edition. In other words, in 5 YEARS, nissan did NOTHING to increase the performance while skyrocketing the price. Nice job Nissan Ayholios
R32 33 34 are old and ancient in my country, why do you guys still want them in USA? my brother had a GTR V Spec R33, in 1997 when he was 19. and my boy cousin had a GTS-T Skyline R32, AWD turbo, but not a GTR in 1990 he was 17 years old. We look at these cars as equals to Mitsubishi, KIA, Subaru..
Don't daily drive it.Weekend car only.Just like my 2007 m6. Weekend car to keep the maintenance down.Doesn't matter how much money you make A year.These cars can go to the repair shops for months.
These guys are fucking clueless. I've owned and highly modded a GTR for about 6-7 years now. and I can comfortably saw these guys have no clue what theyre talking about
@@tomic0046 Actually Nissan made a bad ass v8 for the fx50 back in the days. It was powerful as well. They are also some other v8 jdm as well not as popular but they made some and its actually really nice.
Tremendous deal you got for your @Humility. 16 black ed for 76 K here. I went all in because it's so difficult to find a good one here in the Seattle area. Been looking for months and had to bite.
@@Aleksieff Its R35 GTR, to tell people which one is my favourite people only know the style of the R34 by name everyone calls the R35 a skyline when she's not they're all goegoues cars
Black Editions started for the 2012 model year and Nismo for the 2014 model year. Your 0 to 60 grade is completely off.... Are you two serious? Chose the VW because it was more exotic?
Petrol_ Enthusiast so that’s what ur seriously crying about? The fact that they’re reading lines before they speak? So they’re not babbling like an idiot and so they can stay on point?
For being UA-cam video producers, it's pretty bad that you haven't watch enough UA-cam videos to get your facts straight. You should be an expert on a subject before you start giving advice. Here is some advice, don't give any advice on buying a GTR or any car for that matter. I own a 2015 R35 "Black Edition", it cost me $38 and 30 minutes of my time to do an oil change, including filter (AutoZone Mobil1 0w40 Full Synthetic + Mobil1 Filter). Try that on an R8.
I owned 3, 2 of them 09s and the factory transmission on them can handle the factory power. Nissan didn't change the transmission at all up until now, they just changed the launch control logic.
well technically you can import an R34 or any car but it won't be legal to drive on the roads you'll only be able to race it on the track or at car meets/shows
3.8 seconds 0-60 who gave you that info?? my car has done 2.74 before a midpipe/downpipe/custom tune. getting some trans work done on the sensors and then I will re-test but I know it will be in 2.6 range
Thanks so much I was thinking off getting a ft for my ranch and now I know which one to. Get !!!!!!love this channel so helpful I'm surprised u aren't big!
Audi makes shit track cars. Of the 242 cars Car & Driver tested on VIR's track, the 2017 R8 V10 Plus came in a laughable 54th place, being whooped by Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes. BTW, Camaros and Corvettes slaughtered the NISMO GT-R on that same track as well. The 2012 GT-R scored EXACTLY the same track time as the 2017 GT-R Track Edition... which tells you while Nissan was massively jacking up the price for 5 years, they gave the customer NOTHING in return for performance. GT-R's are hugely overrated as their track performance numbers and Dyno results prove.
Nice t-shirt folks! I want one. :) I drove a GTR on a track back in march. I wasn't impressed. Maybe I was expecting too much. After all, it is Godzilla.
Zarek Cruz according to the USA if the car doesn’t pass the safety test they can not let the car into the USA until 25 years to see if any changes have happened to the car but the second time they accept the car and it is legal to drive it in the usa
@@IdealMediaChannel how can a 2017 car be too new to tell if reliable or not? Car has been out for 2 and a half years. But yes they a fine. NEVER buy a CBA. Dont care if you are modding it or not. They have horrible interior.
UNKNOWN HOSTILE SOLDIER true but a lot of changes have been made over those years. From engine and transmission software changes to different transmission parts and bell houses. The motors have always been reliable unless you threw too much boost at it.
As soon as you guys said you chose the R8 over the gtr cause it was more exotic I clicked off.
Glad you could leave a comment before you did 😂
TH1RT3EN † Bet you don’t even own a car. Gtr is fun to drive but as a daily driver it sucks compare to the r8
sam bob it sucks compared to an R8 really? The gtr smokes the r8 and the reliability is more than likely better on the gtr than the r8.. german cars are shit
Luis can’t you read? I said as a daily driver, GT-Rs are extremely harsh. I owed an r8 and sold if for a GT-R, so I know what I’m talking about. Yea German cars are not as reliable as Japanese, but r8’s are just one in a million, I never had any issues with my r8, and maintenance wise, it’s about the same price. Don’t think because it’s a Japanese car the parts are cheap, it’s equally expensive
sam bob Japanese parts aren’t cheap
I’ve driven both r8 and gtr and actually own a gtr, I don’t regret it yes it’s clunky yes it’s not fun to daily but the car is raw and super quick maintenance Forsure is cheaper on the gtr and if you know how to wrench you can do most things. I did consider the r8 but the pre facelifts don’t look to good and the maintenance is a lot more expensive per extensive research I did.
The reason why I went with GT-R - more room. Mods friendly, easy to make power. and big trunk for groceries :) and started a YT channel, do you still own yours?
@@StreetDrivenDaily actually sold it a few months back now, I’m waiting for the market to normalize to see what I get next but I’m thinking 911
@@lros 997 911tt manual is on my list . I was very close to pull a trigger but it was auto.... Before I bought GT-R
@@StreetDrivenDaily nice 997 turbo would be nice, or one of those new caymans they look sick . I’m hopping the prices drop and I’ll have more options. I made some good money when I sold my gtr since prices went up
@@lros yeah the carvana offered me 56k for mine ! I can make money. But nothing out there. I'm AWD turbo guy.
Awesome Video Guys Thumbs Up !!!
Before the acting to get 12 year olds to like and subscribe. Respect it tho. Chase a bag
Why am I watching this I’m 14 and poor lol great vid tho
if nissan made it a higher price tag and infiniti then itd be exotic..or would make u think its exotic..lame how u guys fall for price. cause its more expensive its more exotic lol
gtr should be banned from usa indefinitely, thanks to them hogging everything like they always do, the r32 gtr my dream car tripled its price now beyond affordability.
Work harder LOL
I bought a 2018 GT-R and I love it. I'm certainly not going to listen to two people that have never owned one. I thought this video was what owners have to say. The GT-R is very smooth and comfortable to drive. I'm 6'6" and it's my daily driver, roughly 50 miles per day. I have no complaints. The engine is easy to work on and isn't in the rear and it's got a very large trunk. Can't say that about the R8. GT-R is much much much cheaper to own and maintain than an R8. I had a choice and I made a wise one going with the GT-R. You have to be an idiot to think you can buy a car and sell it for roughly what you invested in it after 6 months to a year. A Mclaren looses 50K in the first year. That was almost my 1st choice. GT-R oil change $300($55 for DIY), R8 oil change $650, Mclaren oil change $3,000.
They weren't wrong , go drive a CBA GTR and you will see . They are very harsh, night and day different between your 2018 . DIY oil change on the R8 is not much more then GTR . I've done oil changes on both cars before
I don’t get how they were wrong, they didn’t say don’t buy a GTR, they just said which are the most attainable for the average person. Big difference between spending 100k+ on a used GTR vs spending 60k
How can make a video of this car with don’t own one it’s pointless 🤦🏽♂️
Nice insult
Started the black edition in 2014. Funny that my logbook says it's a 2010 black edition.. is my logbook wrong or do these guys talk out their arses?
Kris Carpenter well they never mentioned that the transmissions were upgraded multiple times. And not to buy pre 14 because the 14+ have the best transmissions for horsepower add ons. They just googled a couple facts and made this. Like the “huge weight” change in the track edition it’s not even a noticeable difference
They are talking out their arses
Exactly my black edition is 2012 lol
Thank you for spreading the wrong information about the GT-R making 0-60 mph in 3.8 secs. That's totally wrong. And I'd choose a GT-R over an R8 any day.
Going with a car because it's "more exotic" is like deciding to get a car because you like the color.
Double you
Tea
Eff
???!!!
Wat
You lost me on " none of you actually owned it" yeah nice brochure !
We LOVE the R35 GTR! This video was made to document the differences for each year starting with the 2009 GTR. Although we think the DBA is the best value for the money right now, depending on your circumstances you may want to get an earlier CBA, especially if you plan on heavily modding it! Let us know what you think is the best year GTR for the $! Until... we can legally have the R34 in the USA! Also, please Subscribe! Help us get to 1k!
I know I’m late lol but they are now starting to import r34s in Texas and making them legal. Seeing r34s go for 53k
The Name off the car is
Nissan Gtr
Nothing Else...just Nissan GTR
R35 pulls up with the vin so R35 too smartass
@@pushhrodd01 my father owns 1
Godzilla😍
TimeGhosts he’s talking about skyline dumb fuck
HondaMan Vtec ok but it’s a Skyline R35 gtr
Some home work you done there. First black edition has 560hp
no, it does not. BE’s are only cosmetically different than premiums. Mechanically they are the same.
Buy A 2012 and up.l had 2010 and 2009.Trans keeps blowing out.After 2012 the trans can take more power .Car can,change gears before you piroid.
just had my cba trans upgraded to a dba cost me 10k
These guys are giving incorrect information. The R35 GTR went on sale in 2007 in Japan. America didnt get the R35 until 2009. Also. The 2007 did 3.5 to 100kph. Later models have been doing 0 to 100kph in 3.0 seconds and less. How come these guys not know these simple facts about the R35? Wow!
Without launch control, it crawls to 60 in a slumbering 4 seconds.
No one is driving through the city launching their car from light to light.
Plenty of people are driving through the city, mashing the gas pedal from light to light.
High HP cars use launch control to keep DOWN the amount of power going to the wheels until traction can be had.
The GT-R uses launch control to jack UP the power going to the wheels.
@@TasteMyStinkholeAndLikeIt youre the only person saying 4 seconds.
Google mines the gold nuggets.
Search for GT-R 0-60 without launch control.
I couldn't care less what it's 0-60 is with launch control, because if I bought the car, I would never use that feature. I don't even know if my car has launch control
@@TasteMyStinkholeAndLikeIt well thats your choice not to use it. Its like turning your car to low boost and testing it then saying that as fast as it can go. Which is stupid really. But thats your choice.
@@conradsealy9603
You clearly don't understand launch control.
Most cars, particularly RWD cars, like the Corvette Z06 (650 HP/TQ) would go nowhere if you mashed the gas pedal without traction control on. It would sit in one spot spinning till the tires exploded from being ripped apart.
Powerful RWD cars need traction control to REDUCE the power going to the wheels so they can actually get moving.
The flaming gay GT-R needs launch control to ADD power to the wheels so it can move as fast as possible.
My car is RWD, so I have no need to use launch control to ADD power to the wheels.... I already have too much power going to the wheels, as my torque hits 412 lb/ft at very low RPM.
I wonder if you queens are going to point out that the 2012 GT-R scored EXACTLY the same time around the track as the 2017 GT-R Track Edition.
In other words, in 5 YEARS, nissan did NOTHING to increase the performance while skyrocketing the price. Nice job Nissan Ayholios
They go to euro 5 the newer versions. But your kinda right
R8 boring well I buy the 34.. And now a 35 still best
the R35 isn't really exotic at all unless you mod it.
R32 33 34 are old and ancient in my country, why do you guys still want them in USA? my brother had a GTR V Spec R33, in 1997 when he was 19. and my boy cousin had a GTS-T Skyline R32, AWD turbo, but not a GTR in 1990 he was 17 years old. We look at these cars as equals to Mitsubishi, KIA, Subaru..
thats my dream car
No, as soon as he said 480hp I just shook my head
just chip tune can give 600hp
2009 GTRs have 480hp
Don't daily drive it.Weekend car only.Just like my 2007 m6. Weekend car to keep the maintenance down.Doesn't matter how much money you make A year.These cars can go to the repair shops for months.
These guys are fucking clueless. I've owned and highly modded a GTR for about 6-7 years now. and I can comfortably saw these guys have no clue what theyre talking about
it doesnt seem you know much about the gtr... you only talk about stuff dealers talk about... you are right about 1 thing tho, the DBA are better
ua-cam.com/video/qTAOh95uESw/v-deo.html
So nw had the gtr faced any of these problems recently???
Why do you guys keep talking about the R8 0:57 seconds in and I’m done
2.8 seconds, not 3.8
3.8 without launch control
Had one with a litchfield stage 3 on it 700+ Bhp fast as Fu%# 50mph to 110mph just like that! Scary car but fun
Nissan gtr r35 i like that car..Nice car👍
Me how in tf did this recommendation know I'm going to buy a R35??
Lmfao
Hahahah
This vid confused the balls out of me
Imagine the vr38 engine with 2 more cylinders
No, it wouldnt be cool. V8 is not JDM style
@@tomic0046 Actually Nissan made a bad ass v8 for the fx50 back in the days. It was powerful as well. They are also some other v8 jdm as well not as popular but they made some and its actually really nice.
Yeah ummm I don’t wanna believe you because you think an r35 is still a skyline, do your homework
found a 2010 premium for $38500, 41500 miles private sale....
worth it?
A GTR being 100,000 dollars what do you think
@@blockrusta3196 😂😂😂😂😂 GT-R 100k nice joke dude, Juts the nismo BTW
Tremendous deal you got for your @Humility. 16 black ed for 76 K here. I went all in because it's so difficult to find a good one here in the Seattle area. Been looking for months and had to bite.
27 thousand miles on mine when urchased July 2019. So yeah you got one helluva deal.
Yeah i take the GTR over R8 i like the 2019
The r35 gtr isn't a skyline up to r34 are skylines due to the body shape😑
its not r35 either... its Nissan GTR! thats it
@@Aleksieff Its R35 GTR, to tell people which one is my favourite people only know the style of the R34 by name everyone calls the R35 a skyline when she's not they're all goegoues cars
I have a 2014 track edi nothing better
get an r32, r35s are shit and 4 fanboys
Black Editions started for the 2012 model year and Nismo for the 2014 model year. Your 0 to 60 grade is completely off....
Are you two serious? Chose the VW because it was more exotic?
(Video title)
Me: hmmm like I have 100k in the bank
You can get a old one from 2009 for 40 to 60k
Shit that’s some fast shit damn
Learned absolutely nothing
The Big Five: Porsche 911 Turbo, Audi R8, Nissan GT-R, Lamborghini Gallardo and Ferrari 360 Modena/F430
Acting like we got $60k to shit out
Lol in Canada we've had the r34 forever. It's a 15 year rule here. But guys want like 80-90k for them. R35's are way better.
* sponsored by Audi*
Annoying. Turned off
2017 is the best...
Total click bait
Wow thing's a car enthusiast would know, you make it obviously you are reading scripted cards😑
Petrol_ Enthusiast so that’s what ur seriously crying about?
The fact that they’re reading lines before they speak? So they’re not babbling like an idiot and so they can stay on point?
That's like saying we went with the Prius but the Tesla Model S is a supersick car! WHUT.
For being UA-cam video producers, it's pretty bad that you haven't watch enough UA-cam videos to get your facts straight. You should be an expert on a subject before you start giving advice. Here is some advice, don't give any advice on buying a GTR or any car for that matter. I own a 2015 R35 "Black Edition", it cost me $38 and 30 minutes of my time to do an oil change, including filter (AutoZone Mobil1 0w40 Full Synthetic + Mobil1 Filter). Try that on an R8.
CLICK BAIT!
Some of the first GT-R are between 40 and 50k that's not a lot.
Make sure you buy 2013 and up.The older ones can't handle the factory power.t ransmition brakes every 5 minutes. Owned two of them.
I owned 3, 2 of them 09s and the factory transmission on them can handle the factory power. Nissan didn't change the transmission at all up until now, they just changed the launch control logic.
Never owned... why am i watching
r8 why didn't you guys take the monster coupe gt-r AMG
Because of price
lets talk about the driving experience.. we drove them but not own them.... wow waste of time watching this 🤦♂️
well technically you can import an R34 or any car but it won't be legal to drive on the roads you'll only be able to race it on the track or at car meets/shows
his voice sounds totally different right now his voice is super high
I't will still eat shit in the wake of the rimac...
Video starts at 2:46
3.8 seconds 0-60 who gave you that info?? my car has done 2.74 before a midpipe/downpipe/custom tune. getting some trans work done on the sensors and then I will re-test but I know it will be in 2.6 range
It came out in 2007 the r35
Nope, they came out in 09
That was the skyline not a gtr
Yes the R35 first came out in Japan in 2007 but was only available in US from 2009 onwards.
In Australia the r34s cost 200k and the 35 cost 80k
0:04 he's right
does anyone have the source of the clip at 2:29
You forgot to add every other supercar in the list lmfao 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Who buys a supercar for a road trip.
Thanks so much I was thinking off getting a ft for my ranch and now I know which one to. Get !!!!!!love this channel so helpful I'm surprised u aren't big!
The guy on the right is annoying. Especially with his "special SFX"
This felt like click gay bait
2019 Mazda 3 vs Honda civic
The r35 is basically a gtr missing an extra pedal
What ever the year or model I want one someone can give me gtr ahahahah..
Video starts @ 1:32 and No! They have never owned one?!?
U can get r34s here under show and display rule as long as its a v spec
"R8 oVer R35 bEcaUsE iTs mOrE eXOTiC" smh typical American ppl
Audi makes shit track cars.
Of the 242 cars Car & Driver tested on VIR's track, the 2017 R8 V10 Plus came in a laughable 54th place, being whooped by Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes.
BTW, Camaros and Corvettes slaughtered the NISMO GT-R on that same track as well.
The 2012 GT-R scored EXACTLY the same track time as the 2017 GT-R Track Edition... which tells you while Nissan was massively jacking up the price for 5 years, they gave the customer NOTHING in return for performance. GT-R's are hugely overrated as their track performance numbers and Dyno results prove.
Nice t-shirt folks! I want one. :) I drove a GTR on a track back in march. I wasn't impressed. Maybe I was expecting too much. After all, it is Godzilla.
I guess it all depends what you're comparing it to.
False information 👎
Have you seen the masarati?
2012 or 2013 here you go
How does the 25 year rule work ???????
Zarek Cruz according to the USA if the car doesn’t pass the safety test they can not let the car into the USA until 25 years to see if any changes have happened to the car but the second time they accept the car and it is legal to drive it in the usa
Oh cool
Lameeee
Nice info guys
the gtr black edition was introduced in 2012 BTW
Thx for the info!
Exactly
Awesome video!
I seen R34 in Florida every Saturday night at the car meet in Orlando
wow thats so impressive. NOT.
I see one in my garage every day
@@jamesgeese wow how special are you to have such an ugly car.
Way better video than Bros four speed. 👍🏻👍🏻
at least Bros 4 speed OWNS the GTR and is much more qualified to speak about the positives/negatives i have found his videos informative
@@puny-tinsucks5102 then why are you watching this video?
What about Nissan gtr 2017? Are they good and are they reliable?
It’s too new to tell. But I would bet they are going to be!
@@IdealMediaChannel how can a 2017 car be too new to tell if reliable or not? Car has been out for 2 and a half years. But yes they a fine. NEVER buy a CBA. Dont care if you are modding it or not. They have horrible interior.
@@Executiveinvestments- not only that but they have been using the same engine for 9 years
UNKNOWN HOSTILE SOLDIER true but a lot of changes have been made over those years. From engine and transmission software changes to different transmission parts and bell houses. The motors have always been reliable unless you threw too much boost at it.
I’m trying to get an r35
Eh 370z better
Nope
Lol I wish
BD before the cringe... Oops, was a little too early. It's all there
Darn I just bought one just yesterday :(
My papa hates the r35, just because having a Porsche, like wtf
ooooo 3:43
VR38 always breakdown....
My Holden VF GTS ls3 smokes the r8 and the gtr 😂
The GTR r35's are fu*king slow
If modified they go pretty fast