CORRECTIONS - sorry a few errors snuck in here! - Flamers ARE base S5, not S4. I think my mind was trying to put them back to where they were before as they'd still be solid at S4... - The Impossible Robe turns off 1 failed save per PHASE - so you could use it both in the shooting and fight phase in the same turn. - The Skull Altar is only 50pts and can be deep-struck - two things that make it a bit more usable. I'm still a bit sceptical about it being good though. Thanks to all those who pointed those out down in the comments!
Deep striking the skull alter with skull taker inside right into the enemy can generate great warp storm points. And T8 at 50 points means if they kill it a melee monster is breaking out
@@oscaryshiroma8250 Yes, when I said competing for HQ choices, I meant 'you only want a certain number in an army' rather than 'you only have slots for this many'. You probably don't want to go too low on battle line units to cram in 6+ HQ slots I feel.
@@auspextactics I do agree I think if you're bringing in three bloodthirsters, let's say at base and then a minimum of three troops. Bloodletters are not cheap, there alone is more than three quarters of your list if you're playing a 2000 point game. I think at this point you lose the competitive Edge but you could definitely win a total brawl match I was thinking more like 2 thirsters, skulltaker(auto included in my opinion), and maybe a herald on that chariot. Might not be such a bad shot and leaves you w pts to wiggle P.S. I love those crushers!! Say what you want, give the the stampede strat and whatcha em.
@@bluelax99able never played chaos demons aside from disciples of belakor and now that I got the new book I'm so hype to play these slaanesh models I've had forever.
I wake up every morning and stare at the mirror chanting “Disciples of Belakor makes your Nurglings OBSEC” over and over until I’m ready to face the day.
@@carlossanblas5807 False my dear friend. The reasons Nurglings are not OBSEC is because the Daemons Detachment ability does not grant swarms OBSEC. however, the DOB army benefits sections gives troops in your army OBSEC. The reason Blue Horrors can never have OBSEC is because they state on their profile that they can never gain the OBSEC rule, they are therefore not OBSEC even in DOB.
There's a few Slaanesh players locally and, when we stop chatting about the awesome shared lore between the Daemon and Aeldari books, I keep telling them they're sleeping on the Enrapturess. Firstly because I don't believe that they didn't just buy that model, and secondly because it's really useful now. Warp locus on a Look Out Sir-able unit is crazy.
Man Nurgle really got the short end of that stick. I never really enjoyed playing Nurgle anyway, but it would be nice seeing them become more of a threat
They just send a big F to the GUO, all of the other greater daemons has an extra abilitie like KoS -1 to hit or LoC +2 to psychic test, but guo only has abilities when he takes the bell or the bile blade, the abilitie of the bell is kinda good but its combat its very poor, and the bile blade has a shitty +1 to ONE psychic test and you have to take a mortal wound that can not be negated even with Di... oh right, Disgustingly Resilient is not a thing anymore!
I’ve had about 10 games with mono nurgle now and I’ve been stomped every time apart from one which was a draw, and my god was it difficult to get that. I think plaguebearers are criminally over costed for what they do and they GUO is absolute dogshit in comparison with the other greater daemons. The only units which have been somewhat reliable are beasts and the soul grinder. Im afraid that my disgustingly beautifully painted sick boys will be back to being a purely display army once again unless GW gives them some love.
@@auspextactics sorry didn’t want to be “that guy “ but I’m so stoked that my demons got buffed that the data sheets are burned into my brain. Lol. Keep up the great work my man, the occasional minor slip just proves that you are human.
@@beardwierd2783it looks like yes they would get +1 S for every exalted flamer and burning chariot they are near. Unless there is a general rule that says you can't be affected by the same rule more than once. If you can, I can see this being a very quick faq otherwise you could get flamers very strong.
@@valdemarulf8481 no kidding, I have two burning chariots and a exulted flamer. You could have them one shotting imperial knights with 30+ s8 ap-2 auto hits!
@@paolocereda2070 I hope GW will buff them with a couple points cuts. Really wanting to ally them with Death Guard without feeling im gonna put myself at a disadvantage
The worst thing about plaguebearers is that being 2W they aren't eligible for the 5 WSP replenishment mechanic. They're way too squishy & have no regen mechanic.. how is that nurgly!?
@@Viewer41 yeah I've only played 500s since the codex dropped and nurgle is incredibly underwhelming.. just nowhere near enough attacks or AP to deny marines, very little opportunity to buff defense. As AT said.. Beasts mortal wounds is pretty much all they have for dealing damage. I've no idea how you're supposed to use GUOs, the base is 5" and they have 7 move, it only takes one piece of 2 inch terrain to stop them dead
It's funny, I bought the codex thinking I was gonna use the nurgle daemons with my deathguard..... now I'm building belakors army of renown with daemonettes, bloodletters, flamers, nurglings, and beasts of nurgle with 3 wardogs.
You mention heralds competing for HQ slots, but they don't take a slot if you have a greater demon. You didn't mention Skarbrands downside with his +1 attack buff that buffs the enemies as well!
I don't think the "competing for HQ slots" here refers to raw what you're allowed to bring, but more-so that you don't usually wanna bring a ton of HQs because then you don't have other important things in your list.
New codex made me sad. I've hidden nurgle units into box and took Death Guard army instead. I also dislike that there is no CPs refund for bringing small patrol of daemons into ChSM army. You have to spend 2 CPs only to fluff You army. Nurgle lost 5++, Slaaneshi lost fight first, charges after advance... Nurglings lost obsec? Och... That's also sad. And cost of beast is simply high. Great nerfs IMHO.
Can confirm that those units are insane having played them this past weekend, Be’lakor, Blood thirster, blood letters and flamers w the flame HQ. Just nasty all around!
23:07 It's each phase it means a lord of change becomes so hard to kill there's no point trying. Still find that bringing a changecaster and a soul grinder is better value for mono tzeentch. But that likely just be because all my games so far have been 1000pt. also flamers are strength 5 base even more broken can be up to 7 with not much effort.
I'm planning to run a Nurgle/Tzeentch list because I think they're quite complimentary. Nurgle want to hold objectives and get into combat, while Tzeentch want to fly around shooting at stuff. A cool combo I intend to try is teleporting Be'lakor 9" away from enemies in turn 2, using him as a warp locus to get a GUO 6" away and 6 Flamers/Exalted Flamer/Herald behind. The GUO puts Shrivelling Pox on the enemy, making them -1 T. Exalted Flamer boosts the Flamers to S6 (the herald possibly to S7 with Boon of Change), so they're wounding on 2s with rerolls against space marines. Whatever remains you can charge the GUO and Be'lakor into, while the Tzeentch group goes off elsewhere.
Give that GUO the Corruption relic and the virulent touch warlord trait and now you have 12 attacks that autowound with -3 ap damage 2 that can not be negated by rules like abaddon or FnP
@@wyattjohnson5181 used to have three wounds and now have four, used to have 8” movement, now 10” equipped with the new bloodletter gear (with bloodletters being in teir one) and plus additional 4 attacks at +2 strength on charge with the mount’s blades horn. They are pretty godamn powerful In my eyes they would be teir one if it wasn’t for 140 points just for three of them
@@wyattjohnson5181 a 3 man unit is 5 points more than 10 bloodletters but it tougher, notably a 4++ in melee and shooting, move movement, malefic attacks with the horn and more wounds. Plague drones on the other hand, while they do require some support, get access to allot of buffs and being fast and core they can just be buffed to be super durable and do decent dmg
Swap Bloodcrushers and Fleshhounds. Crushers have all the hellblade attacks, plus 4 horn attacks per model. combined with the INSANE mortal wounds stratagem for impact hits, they are basically unstoppable on the turn they charge. There is nothing they wont alphastrike if a unit of 6 hits you.
A unit of 6 Bloodcrushers with that stratagem is going to deal just 2 MWs. How is that 'INSANE'? They are also slower, lack utility, don't fit well into lists, and their advantage in damage against high-T targets doesn't seem to justify bringing them over stuff like Exalted Flamers, regular Flamers, and just plain regular Bloodletters.
A solid tier list, as with anything this subjective I have a few minor disagreements that I thought I may as well add to the discussion: - Changecaster and Fluxmaster I'd suggest belong in the same tier as Fateskimmer. Whether that's tier 1 or 2 is harder to say, but I think the points differences between the heralds of Tzeentch reflect their benefits well, so which you pick will depend on your game plan more than the inherent power of their datasheets. - Exalted Flamer I think is tier 2. Because flamers are already S5 the strength buff is less relevant as going up to 6 isn't as much of a key break point. Also, as a character it makes Assassination and Psychic Interrogation easier for opponents in Nephilim missions. - Great Unclean One probably belongs in tier 2, simply for how devastating it can be with the Corruption relic. 22 wounds at T9, its melee output with the relic becomes great as the +1 damage lets its sweep attacks wipe out space marines and no ignore wounds suffered is bad news for Abaddon, C'Tan and anything with a feel-no-pain. You can also add on durability buffs or additional synergies from exalted abilities and a warlord trait. - Screamers I'd argue go in tier 3. At WS 4+ their melee is inconsistent and they don't survive the fight back, so it takes a lot of engineering to put them in a situation where you can actually get any kind of melee trade out of them. Daemons aren't short on ways to spread out across the board and the immaterial winds ability means screamers have to be dropped at least 9" away from enemies so it can't be used for effective movement blocking either. - Skarbrand probably doesn't belong in tier 1. +1 attack for all units is a huge problem against melee armies, especially if they can put out a fights last effect or get a charge off against him.
Not sure why you think S6 isn't much of a break point. You wound T3 on 2's, T5 on 3's and with many units now getting access to -1 to wound, it's definitely useful. However, you're not really taking the EF for the strength buff, you're taking it for the 3, S9 AP-4 D3 hits.
@@JimH. to be clear, putting the EF in tier 2 still means it's a good pick in my opinion. I also wasn't saying S5 to S6 is a worthless break point but in my anecdotal experience I find there's more T4 in the game than T3 and T5 combined. Perhaps just my local meta. Thanks for contributing to the discussion though, your points are definitely valid
I haven't played with it yet, but Contorted Epitome seems atleast solid to me. 2 casts, 2 denies, 4+/4+ saves, 12" move plus its a herald. Seems like you could play it as a decently hard to kill, fast moving support
I drop Lord of change to tier 2, he is meta dependant. there are quite a few armies capable of ignoring wounds or dispersing powers with ease (thousand sons, grey knights, sisters, wolves, custodes, word bearers, etc) or to which the aura that splashes mortals does absolutely nothing to them because they do not play crowded (knights of the chaos, mechanized armies)
Thanks for the listing. To have tested the new daemons in a tournament : - tranceweaver has the huge buff of -1AP for daemonettes to drive them really swingy in close combat. - the squishyness of slaanesh units in melee can be negated using the "fight first" slaanesh warp storm in the ennemy turn. - the burning chariot has 2 advantages : very broad base to easily buff 2 distant flamers squads. Other point : it is not a character and hence does not give extra "assassinate points". The fact of being targetable is no major issue as the resilience is consistent vs prio of target (hard to kill for not vital buff in most cases). - screamers are not to be sent in melee as any local missluck leads to death. Yet, the ability to teleport a very small unit makes it a perfect Daemon quarters taker and max easily the 15pts - soulgrinder is good, but the 190pts is way too much vs the actual damage. Packing 3 to ensure efficiency would take too much ressources vs the rest. - Daemon prince could almost be Tier 4 : melee isn't amazing and resilience with only a 5+ for 185pts is way too much.
Daemon Prince of Khorne with the +1 to damage relic and a sword is going to be quite close to the damage output of a BT and for about half the cost. You also don't have to take wings, considering that you are taking Be'lakor anyway for Warp Locus.
its sad to see that so many nurgle units are sub-par, i know 2 people that wanted to start a nurgle army but are really put off by the datasheets and overall "sad nurgle" vibes we get when watching content and reading the codex.
Beasts can be brutal, but very expensive. Sloppity can be useful with his ability. The rest is honestly very disappointing. I got a nurgle army that will suck.... again
I love the videos and this was very informative. I hope you do a video on disciples of belakor soon. It is confusing what synergies work like what rules turn on and off for allied korvax knights and night lords allying in as well for some insane morale shenanigans. As always love your work.
Something to consider for the bloodcrushers - 4+ save in melee, more overall wounds and toughness than 10 BL, same icon/musician, faster, more attacks tho less damage 2 attacks (unless using WSP for the khorne attacks). I think a mix is nice, these WILL take much more effort to kill than 10 BL.
Pink Horrors are just overcosted for troops that die so easy in melee and lack the damage output. Soul Grinders are solid on paper, but the large base is a bit of a problem (they can still have a place on certain lists). To me Skulltaker is clearly tier 1, a cheap character killer that can counter charge and has lookout sir. Also, with the WL trait he also ignores phase caps and FNP saves, not just invuls. The guy slays. Nurglings are T1 in DoB, where they gain obsec.
@@회멸 Yes, the one that allows him to ignore rules that allow the opponent to ignore wounds (FNP saves and wound per phases caps) Add the fact that he already ignores invuls and you have an awesome character killer that is actually not expensive.
Design team must absolutely hate nurgle, it feels like they've distilled everything that makes a unit bad into their stuff. They're all overcosted. They've lost the feel pain in favour of more wounds and toughness, while this edition has spent 2 years showing having higher toughness and wounds means nothing. And then they've given them the triple hit combo of bad damage output with low attack count, mediocre weapon profiles and bad accuracy. I have no idea how a team whose job is designing rules looked at all this and said "Yeah, this feels good"
If I had to guess, they're probably looking to squat Epidemius by the next codex now that we have Horticulous, much like they did to Ku'gath after we got Rottigus. You would think that, by now being the oldest model in the range, they would have given him an update but no; keep the old model so nobody will buy it, make their rules abysmally awful just to make sure, then use it as justification to your audience as to why you got rid of the character.
@@ticker0157 LOL I absolutely loved the idea of skarbrand when playing age of sigmar.. but man, he’s heavily overshadowed by versatility of regular BT’s in 40K
Doesn't help that Tzeentch has a lot of buffs for melee, which not only against their whole ranged-and-psychic schtick but they aren't even good. The Changecaster (on foot herald) gives HORRORS CORE units autowounds on 6's to hit in melee... wut? The Fluxmaster (on the disc) is actually way better since it gives HORRORS CORE the autowounds on ranged attacks. Fateskimmers (chariot heralds) also give autowounds in melee, but that's on SCREAMERS CORE so it kinda fits, but the Changecaster could have easily had an ability to give Horrors an extra -1 AP in shooting or something. Also, one of the Tzeentch Warpstorm abilities let's wound rolls of 6 in melee deal a mortal wound, which is useless as most units simply can't make enough attacks to make it count. I'd have made it so all Tzeentch models get exploding hits on 6's to hit at ranged, with autohit weapons just getting an extra shot.
I think Burning Chariots should be higher up. They’re an incredible turn 1 move block unit. Advance up with 14+d6 move and fly. Park them in the way and with that huge base and auto hit with their flamer profile. With T6 and 9w and 4++ daemon in both melee and range is pretty hard to remove. And if the opponent s pouring firepower into them they aren’t focusing elsewhere. They’ll usually try to be killed in melee, but if they do survive then you’re hitting back with the malefic Screamer bites and as a vehicle, you can flamer attack while staying in melee. And if they do survive you can deepstrike your flamers nearby to get the strength buff. I also like warp fire blade relic on a Tzeentch Daemon Prince. It adds some much needed melee threat and turns their sword into a damage 4 weapon with mortals on 6s. A very solid counter charge unit.
I'm not familiar with how the table top is played so I'm a little confused on what counts as a chaos daemon or how the distinction is made. Why are Tzaangors, Brass Scorpions and Mutalith Vortex Beast not considered daemons? Are Greater Plague Drones exclusive to the Death Guard? Why is the Soul Grinder here but not other daemon engines? What about Chaos Spawn?
That's because Vortex Beasts, Tzaangors, Slaughterbrutes etc are Age of Sigmar. There are a lot of demon units that actual trickle into 40k specifically and are useable but not all.
Tzaangors and Mutalith Vortex Beasts are mortal entities found on the Planet of the Sorcerers in 40k, consider them more as Mutants than daemons. Soul Grinders are made in Demon Forges in the Warp by other daemons, however conventional Daemon engines (brass scorpion included) are made my mortal space marines in real space by binding a Daemon to a machine. The mechanical plague drone vs. The daemon plague drones are a similar case, with the daemons form being what you see in this book, and the mechanical being a construct built in real space. Finally, chaos spawn are again, mortal Mutants, who have been mutated beyond reason from too many "gifts" from the dark gods. This book is only what exists naturally in the Warp, whereas other books have the result of Chaos influence on realspace in the form of Mutants and Daemon engines. Hope this helps :)
@@thetaomegatheta i play mono zt daemons, they are a great unit for objectives but i think they are overpriced when you consider a full sqaud of flamers are 150 points, Ive been taking blue horros instead only 70 points, not haveing obj secure and no actions hurts though, perhaps im underestimating the 3+ save but theres alot of units that can take out the 10 man sqaud before i get to roll for split. Also they have low damage ouput.
I think people undervalue Rotigus, maybe its just be as I am mainly a nurgle user but he is an absolute mid board terror for me, deluge of nurgle seems so strong when paired with smites, stream of corruption and nurgles rot, takes a few turns to get into nurgle rot range but it can pop silly damage, with the extra d3 mws on each 7+ cast aswell can do some very cheeky no los mws to a charecter or unit, 2d6 str 6 ap 3 flamer on top of that, when this guy gets close it really hurts, and his combat profile while nothing compared to a bloodthirster is still somewhat decent 6 at ap3 dmg 3.
TLDR: The Blood is flowing, everything being on fire IS going just as planned, those Eldar buns are yours for the taking, and funny enough nobody gives a s#it about recent burn victims.
I saw your debate on change VS Fluxcaster. Big takeaway is the fact that only the Flux gives them 6 to hit at range auto wounds. Changecaster is 6's in melee, which would be great if it counted the wound roll as a 6 so you could cause mortals..
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s that doesn't matter. Daemons have over 50 datasheets, not every single one is gonna be tier 1 Votann have a fifth of that so they need more quality units to be playable
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s what does that have to do with votann being nearly all tier 1 Yeah we have a lot of HQs but we still have plenty of strong units, more than votann Yeah daemons are very hq heavy but it doesn't matter
@@jpick8245 Yes. But then thats 1350 points worth of bodies that deal 0 damage. And i have to put in a minimum of 3 HQs. While possible, i dont think it could be good.
Im so confused why everyone keeps pushing the horrors of Tzeentch as some of the top tier units when in reality they are arguably some of the most objectively worst units in game of any army, they have next to no killing power with S3 AP0 D1 with 1 shot, their Toughness is 3 so bolters will shred through them, and if something makes it into melee combat with them, Tau fire warriors for instance, will auto kill them......I just.....am so wildly confused why everyone is pushing them as the premiere top choice for daemon units when they fail in every single category.....
Did you even read the codex? Pinks have S4 AP-1 D1 Assault 2 shots, and they have a 3+ invuln save against ranged attacks, and they have a 50% chance of splitting into 2 blue horrors if they die. While they don't have the most damage, they are extremely difficult to remove from a point. Also people recommend blue horrors because they are the cheapest troop choice in the book that fills requirements for detachments.
You mean the community overreacting and cherry picking parts of a codex to scream "new codex over powered on purpose to sell models!??!?! Stupid GW!! hate then!!! Boycot!!!". In truth it is fine. Same with Leagues of Voltann the hysterical outrage from the community is a little embarrassing.
CORRECTIONS - sorry a few errors snuck in here!
- Flamers ARE base S5, not S4. I think my mind was trying to put them back to where they were before as they'd still be solid at S4...
- The Impossible Robe turns off 1 failed save per PHASE - so you could use it both in the shooting and fight phase in the same turn.
- The Skull Altar is only 50pts and can be deep-struck - two things that make it a bit more usable. I'm still a bit sceptical about it being good though.
Thanks to all those who pointed those out down in the comments!
Isn't a herald a free HQ slot for every one greater demon in your detachment?
@@oscaryshiroma8250 yep
Deep striking the skull alter with skull taker inside right into the enemy can generate great warp storm points. And T8 at 50 points means if they kill it a melee monster is breaking out
@@oscaryshiroma8250 Yes, when I said competing for HQ choices, I meant 'you only want a certain number in an army' rather than 'you only have slots for this many'. You probably don't want to go too low on battle line units to cram in 6+ HQ slots I feel.
@@auspextactics I do agree I think if you're bringing in three bloodthirsters, let's say at base and then a minimum of three troops. Bloodletters are not cheap, there alone is more than three quarters of your list if you're playing a 2000 point game. I think at this point you lose the competitive Edge but you could definitely win a total brawl match
I was thinking more like 2 thirsters, skulltaker(auto included in my opinion), and maybe a herald on that chariot. Might not be such a bad shot and leaves you w pts to wiggle
P.S. I love those crushers!! Say what you want, give the the stampede strat and whatcha em.
As someone who plays against Chaos Demons frequently, I think you've placed Flamers of Tzeentch one tier too low.
Especially since you can spend one cp and have 6s auto mortal and deal its standard damage to delete anything
@@bluelax99able never played chaos demons aside from disciples of belakor and now that I got the new book I'm so hype to play these slaanesh models I've had forever.
I wake up every morning and stare at the mirror chanting “Disciples of Belakor makes your Nurglings OBSEC” over and over until I’m ready to face the day.
How, how does that works?
@@carlossanblas5807 DoB just gives obsec to troops
@@회멸 yes but, it says that nurglings can never have obsec
@@carlossanblas5807 Im quite confusing. Blue horrors datasheet says it can never have obsec but i dont see it for nurglings. Where can I check that?
@@carlossanblas5807 False my dear friend. The reasons Nurglings are not OBSEC is because the Daemons Detachment ability does not grant swarms OBSEC. however, the DOB army benefits sections gives troops in your army OBSEC. The reason Blue Horrors can never have OBSEC is because they state on their profile that they can never gain the OBSEC rule, they are therefore not OBSEC even in DOB.
There's a few Slaanesh players locally and, when we stop chatting about the awesome shared lore between the Daemon and Aeldari books, I keep telling them they're sleeping on the Enrapturess.
Firstly because I don't believe that they didn't just buy that model, and secondly because it's really useful now. Warp locus on a Look Out Sir-able unit is crazy.
Slaanesh is good, but it feels so incredibly depressing to not only lose all of your special rules, but to also not get anything for Fight Last.
Man Nurgle really got the short end of that stick. I never really enjoyed playing Nurgle anyway, but it would be nice seeing them become more of a threat
They just send a big F to the GUO, all of the other greater daemons has an extra abilitie like KoS -1 to hit or LoC +2 to psychic test, but guo only has abilities when he takes the bell or the bile blade, the abilitie of the bell is kinda good but its combat its very poor, and the bile blade has a shitty +1 to ONE psychic test and you have to take a mortal wound that can not be negated even with Di... oh right, Disgustingly Resilient is not a thing anymore!
I’ve had about 10 games with mono nurgle now and I’ve been stomped every time apart from one which was a draw, and my god was it difficult to get that. I think plaguebearers are criminally over costed for what they do and they GUO is absolute dogshit in comparison with the other greater daemons. The only units which have been somewhat reliable are beasts and the soul grinder. Im afraid that my disgustingly beautifully painted sick boys will be back to being a purely display army once again unless GW gives them some love.
@@donniebooshae3880 what list did you used?
Just like to point out that flamers are already strength 5 so the exulted flamer buffs them to strength 6.
Thanks for the correction - just posted a pinned comment above
@@auspextactics sorry didn’t want to be “that guy “ but I’m so stoked that my demons got buffed that the data sheets are burned into my brain. Lol. Keep up the great work my man, the occasional minor slip just proves that you are human.
@@auspextactics could I ask, if you have an exulted flamer and a burning chariot with the flamers wound that make them strength 7?
@@beardwierd2783it looks like yes they would get +1 S for every exalted flamer and burning chariot they are near. Unless there is a general rule that says you can't be affected by the same rule more than once. If you can, I can see this being a very quick faq otherwise you could get flamers very strong.
@@valdemarulf8481 no kidding, I have two burning chariots and a exulted flamer. You could have them one shotting imperial knights with 30+ s8 ap-2 auto hits!
Epidemius is one of the most depressing nerfs I've seen
all nurgles daemons (with few exceptions) are pretty depressing
@@paolocereda2070 I hope GW will buff them with a couple points cuts. Really wanting to ally them with Death Guard without feeling im gonna put myself at a disadvantage
The worst thing about plaguebearers is that being 2W they aren't eligible for the 5 WSP replenishment mechanic. They're way too squishy & have no regen mechanic.. how is that nurgly!?
They don’t have any durability buffs either which is sad, no 5+++ or even borrowing DGs -1 damage or something, just got T5
My bad they got the spell for +1 T but I don’t think that’s enough
Agreed.
In my first game with new Daemons, the Plaugebearers just died really easily.
Very unimpressed with them.
@@Viewer41 yeah I've only played 500s since the codex dropped and nurgle is incredibly underwhelming.. just nowhere near enough attacks or AP to deny marines, very little opportunity to buff defense. As AT said.. Beasts mortal wounds is pretty much all they have for dealing damage. I've no idea how you're supposed to use GUOs, the base is 5" and they have 7 move, it only takes one piece of 2 inch terrain to stop them dead
It's funny, I bought the codex thinking I was gonna use the nurgle daemons with my deathguard..... now I'm building belakors army of renown with daemonettes, bloodletters, flamers, nurglings, and beasts of nurgle with 3 wardogs.
That's where I'm now leaning towards. It does help that I already have Be'lakor and a few units of Bloodletters too 😁
Wow. Nurgle was done dirty. Pun not intended XXD
You mention heralds competing for HQ slots, but they don't take a slot if you have a greater demon. You didn't mention Skarbrands downside with his +1 attack buff that buffs the enemies as well!
I don't think the "competing for HQ slots" here refers to raw what you're allowed to bring, but more-so that you don't usually wanna bring a ton of HQs because then you don't have other important things in your list.
Okay that Enrapturess model is the most fucking brutal thing they've ever sculpted.
By far.
Really motivating me to finish painting up my next batch of Howling Banshees with those flamers
XD
New codex made me sad.
I've hidden nurgle units into box and took Death Guard army instead. I also dislike that there is no CPs refund for bringing small patrol of daemons into ChSM army. You have to spend 2 CPs only to fluff You army. Nurgle lost 5++, Slaaneshi lost fight first, charges after advance...
Nurglings lost obsec? Och... That's also sad. And cost of beast is simply high.
Great nerfs IMHO.
Can confirm that those units are insane having played them this past weekend, Be’lakor, Blood thirster, blood letters and flamers w the flame HQ. Just nasty all around!
23:07 It's each phase it means a lord of change becomes so hard to kill there's no point trying. Still find that bringing a changecaster and a soul grinder is better value for mono tzeentch. But that likely just be because all my games so far have been 1000pt. also flamers are strength 5 base even more broken can be up to 7 with not much effort.
Thanks for the heads up! Just posted a correction above.
@@auspextactics no problem. I enjoyed and agreed with the list anyway.
Flammers have base strengh of 5 and there attack is strength User so with the exaltet Flamer it is strength 6
I'm planning to run a Nurgle/Tzeentch list because I think they're quite complimentary. Nurgle want to hold objectives and get into combat, while Tzeentch want to fly around shooting at stuff. A cool combo I intend to try is teleporting Be'lakor 9" away from enemies in turn 2, using him as a warp locus to get a GUO 6" away and 6 Flamers/Exalted Flamer/Herald behind. The GUO puts Shrivelling Pox on the enemy, making them -1 T. Exalted Flamer boosts the Flamers to S6 (the herald possibly to S7 with Boon of Change), so they're wounding on 2s with rerolls against space marines. Whatever remains you can charge the GUO and Be'lakor into, while the Tzeentch group goes off elsewhere.
Give that GUO the Corruption relic and the virulent touch warlord trait and now you have 12 attacks that autowound with -3 ap damage 2 that can not be negated by rules like abaddon or FnP
Plus 7 nurglings attacks autowounds too
Im sad to see most nurgle unit’s being low tier great unclean one needs to be more durable compared to the other greater deamons
Gotta disagree with plague drones and blood crushers, they’re tier 2 for several reasons
Can you explain why? I don't know very much about chaos demons.
@@wyattjohnson5181 used to have three wounds and now have four, used to have 8” movement, now 10” equipped with the new bloodletter gear (with bloodletters being in teir one) and plus additional 4 attacks at +2 strength on charge with the mount’s blades horn. They are pretty godamn powerful
In my eyes they would be teir one if it wasn’t for 140 points just for three of them
@@wyattjohnson5181 a 3 man unit is 5 points more than 10 bloodletters but it tougher, notably a 4++ in melee and shooting, move movement, malefic attacks with the horn and more wounds.
Plague drones on the other hand, while they do require some support, get access to allot of buffs and being fast and core they can just be buffed to be super durable and do decent dmg
WOOOOO the list I've been waiting for!!!
Swap Bloodcrushers and Fleshhounds. Crushers have all the hellblade attacks, plus 4 horn attacks per model. combined with the INSANE mortal wounds stratagem for impact hits, they are basically unstoppable on the turn they charge. There is nothing they wont alphastrike if a unit of 6 hits you.
The stratagem for impact hits is pretty meh and you'll never use it?
A unit of 6 Bloodcrushers with that stratagem is going to deal just 2 MWs. How is that 'INSANE'?
They are also slower, lack utility, don't fit well into lists, and their advantage in damage against high-T targets doesn't seem to justify bringing them over stuff like Exalted Flamers, regular Flamers, and just plain regular Bloodletters.
A solid tier list, as with anything this subjective I have a few minor disagreements that I thought I may as well add to the discussion:
- Changecaster and Fluxmaster I'd suggest belong in the same tier as Fateskimmer. Whether that's tier 1 or 2 is harder to say, but I think the points differences between the heralds of Tzeentch reflect their benefits well, so which you pick will depend on your game plan more than the inherent power of their datasheets.
- Exalted Flamer I think is tier 2. Because flamers are already S5 the strength buff is less relevant as going up to 6 isn't as much of a key break point. Also, as a character it makes Assassination and Psychic Interrogation easier for opponents in Nephilim missions.
- Great Unclean One probably belongs in tier 2, simply for how devastating it can be with the Corruption relic. 22 wounds at T9, its melee output with the relic becomes great as the +1 damage lets its sweep attacks wipe out space marines and no ignore wounds suffered is bad news for Abaddon, C'Tan and anything with a feel-no-pain. You can also add on durability buffs or additional synergies from exalted abilities and a warlord trait.
- Screamers I'd argue go in tier 3. At WS 4+ their melee is inconsistent and they don't survive the fight back, so it takes a lot of engineering to put them in a situation where you can actually get any kind of melee trade out of them. Daemons aren't short on ways to spread out across the board and the immaterial winds ability means screamers have to be dropped at least 9" away from enemies so it can't be used for effective movement blocking either.
- Skarbrand probably doesn't belong in tier 1. +1 attack for all units is a huge problem against melee armies, especially if they can put out a fights last effect or get a charge off against him.
Thanks for all the insights, good points on all accounts. Probably should have put the GUO in tier 2...
Not sure why you think S6 isn't much of a break point. You wound T3 on 2's, T5 on 3's and with many units now getting access to -1 to wound, it's definitely useful. However, you're not really taking the EF for the strength buff, you're taking it for the 3, S9 AP-4 D3 hits.
@@JimH. to be clear, putting the EF in tier 2 still means it's a good pick in my opinion. I also wasn't saying S5 to S6 is a worthless break point but in my anecdotal experience I find there's more T4 in the game than T3 and T5 combined. Perhaps just my local meta. Thanks for contributing to the discussion though, your points are definitely valid
I haven't played with it yet, but Contorted Epitome seems atleast solid to me. 2 casts, 2 denies, 4+/4+ saves, 12" move plus its a herald. Seems like you could play it as a decently hard to kill, fast moving support
Think everyone is caught up on it losing the "cant fall back" ability to tie up units.
The model for the Infernal Enrapturess is nuts, first time for me seeing it. Great sculpt and concept.
Nurgle feels so gutted. All it really needs is reduces damage by 1 or return the 5+fnp.
I drop Lord of change to tier 2, he is meta dependant. there are quite a few armies capable of ignoring wounds or dispersing powers with ease (thousand sons, grey knights, sisters, wolves, custodes, word bearers, etc) or to which the aura that splashes mortals does absolutely nothing to them because they do not play crowded (knights of the chaos, mechanized armies)
Let's not forget about the psychic spell Boon of Change which can give the flamers an additional +1 strength guarenteed with a cast of 9+! Insane!
Thanks for the listing.
To have tested the new daemons in a tournament :
- tranceweaver has the huge buff of -1AP for daemonettes to drive them really swingy in close combat.
- the squishyness of slaanesh units in melee can be negated using the "fight first" slaanesh warp storm in the ennemy turn.
- the burning chariot has 2 advantages : very broad base to easily buff 2 distant flamers squads. Other point : it is not a character and hence does not give extra "assassinate points". The fact of being targetable is no major issue as the resilience is consistent vs prio of target (hard to kill for not vital buff in most cases).
- screamers are not to be sent in melee as any local missluck leads to death. Yet, the ability to teleport a very small unit makes it a perfect Daemon quarters taker and max easily the 15pts
- soulgrinder is good, but the 190pts is way too much vs the actual damage. Packing 3 to ensure efficiency would take too much ressources vs the rest.
- Daemon prince could almost be Tier 4 : melee isn't amazing and resilience with only a 5+ for 185pts is way too much.
Daemon Prince of Khorne with the +1 to damage relic and a sword is going to be quite close to the damage output of a BT and for about half the cost. You also don't have to take wings, considering that you are taking Be'lakor anyway for Warp Locus.
I feel bad to say it but I think all nurgle things minus the beasties of nurgle, are super bad
which is true
oh boi
you just sold my tzeentch demons for me.. that was easy
I feel like you missed that the Slanneshi Herald chariots got to benefit from Character Armor. It makes them far more durable and likely to survive.
its sad to see that so many nurgle units are sub-par, i know 2 people that wanted to start a nurgle army but are really put off by the datasheets and overall "sad nurgle" vibes we get when watching content and reading the codex.
I hope they get an upgrade or something
@@carlossanblas5807 it might even suffice the cut some points on most units
Plaguebearers can be buffed but feel too expensive per model etc.
Beasts can be brutal, but very expensive. Sloppity can be useful with his ability.
The rest is honestly very disappointing. I got a nurgle army that will suck.... again
@@johnnycarcosa5974 idk Man it feels like nurgle even it's not best about resilience, even the 5 warp storm abilitie doesnt work for plaguebearers
I spent the last 3 weeks putting a nurgle army together and I feel like I just wasted my time
I love the videos and this was very informative.
I hope you do a video on disciples of belakor soon.
It is confusing what synergies work like what rules turn on and off for allied korvax knights and night lords allying in as well for some insane morale shenanigans.
As always love your work.
Since night lords dont get their Legion Trait, do they helpful?
Something to consider for the bloodcrushers - 4+ save in melee, more overall wounds and toughness than 10 BL, same icon/musician, faster, more attacks tho less damage 2 attacks (unless using WSP for the khorne attacks). I think a mix is nice, these WILL take much more effort to kill than 10 BL.
Pink Horrors are just overcosted for troops that die so easy in melee and lack the damage output. Soul Grinders are solid on paper, but the large base is a bit of a problem (they can still have a place on certain lists). To me Skulltaker is clearly tier 1, a cheap character killer that can counter charge and has lookout sir. Also, with the WL trait he also ignores phase caps and FNP saves, not just invuls. The guy slays.
Nurglings are T1 in DoB, where they gain obsec.
Skulltaker can never have WL at all, acording to codex, which is shame lol
oh, my bad. Skulltaker actually can have WL trait if you make mono daemon army without any greater daemons
@@회멸 Yes, the one that allows him to ignore rules that allow the opponent to ignore wounds (FNP saves and wound per phases caps) Add the fact that he already ignores invuls and you have an awesome character killer that is actually not expensive.
well, my point was, deamon codex only allows you 1 WL trait and that will be for greater deamon, not for Skulltaker.
Design team must absolutely hate nurgle, it feels like they've distilled everything that makes a unit bad into their stuff.
They're all overcosted.
They've lost the feel pain in favour of more wounds and toughness, while this edition has spent 2 years showing having higher toughness and wounds means nothing.
And then they've given them the triple hit combo of bad damage output with low attack count, mediocre weapon profiles and bad accuracy.
I have no idea how a team whose job is designing rules looked at all this and said "Yeah, this feels good"
"this edition has spent 2 years showing having higher toughness and wounds means nothing" THIS.
I believe flamers are str 5 base
Yes, so he actually under rated them...
I wish there were as many chaos units as there are at Belakor disposal in Warhammer 3
If I had to guess, they're probably looking to squat Epidemius by the next codex now that we have Horticulous, much like they did to Ku'gath after we got Rottigus.
You would think that, by now being the oldest model in the range, they would have given him an update but no; keep the old model so nobody will buy it, make their rules abysmally awful just to make sure, then use it as justification to your audience as to why you got rid of the character.
I think Plaguebearers are even worse than you suggest. Nurgle was really an afterthought in this Codex.
With the Blood Altar I believe you can deepstrike it like everything else in the army
It's also the only korne warp locus I'm pretty sure
@@ticker0157 Strangely, Skarbrand is the other Warp Locus for Khorne
@@brandonhedges719 that's true, I just don't want to use him lol
@@ticker0157 LOL I absolutely loved the idea of skarbrand when playing age of sigmar.. but man, he’s heavily overshadowed by versatility of regular BT’s in 40K
@@brandonhedges719 plus I don't want to buff my enemy lol he's the only guy in the game that dose that frome my knowledge
Doesn't help that Tzeentch has a lot of buffs for melee, which not only against their whole ranged-and-psychic schtick but they aren't even good.
The Changecaster (on foot herald) gives HORRORS CORE units autowounds on 6's to hit in melee... wut? The Fluxmaster (on the disc) is actually way better since it gives HORRORS CORE the autowounds on ranged attacks. Fateskimmers (chariot heralds) also give autowounds in melee, but that's on SCREAMERS CORE so it kinda fits, but the Changecaster could have easily had an ability to give Horrors an extra -1 AP in shooting or something.
Also, one of the Tzeentch Warpstorm abilities let's wound rolls of 6 in melee deal a mortal wound, which is useless as most units simply can't make enough attacks to make it count. I'd have made it so all Tzeentch models get exploding hits on 6's to hit at ranged, with autohit weapons just getting an extra shot.
Just bought the book to secure my disappointment in my nurgle army list.
And we thought the T'au had strong flamers...
It's interesting how the Death Guard are the best legion but their daemon counterparts are the worst, Nurgle daemons definitely need a buff.
I think Burning Chariots should be higher up. They’re an incredible turn 1 move block unit. Advance up with 14+d6 move and fly. Park them in the way and with that huge base and auto hit with their flamer profile. With T6 and 9w and 4++ daemon in both melee and range is pretty hard to remove. And if the opponent s pouring firepower into them they aren’t focusing elsewhere. They’ll usually try to be killed in melee, but if they do survive then you’re hitting back with the malefic Screamer bites and as a vehicle, you can flamer attack while staying in melee. And if they do survive you can deepstrike your flamers nearby to get the strength buff.
I also like warp fire blade relic on a Tzeentch Daemon Prince. It adds some much needed melee threat and turns their sword into a damage 4 weapon with mortals on 6s. A very solid counter charge unit.
I remember when Epidemus was a really cool model... now it looks mostly weird.
Personally I would take out the harpist for slannesh, the tranceweaver is the best bang for your buck as it can cast spell perform actions and buff.
I'm not familiar with how the table top is played so I'm a little confused on what counts as a chaos daemon or how the distinction is made. Why are Tzaangors, Brass Scorpions and Mutalith Vortex Beast not considered daemons? Are Greater Plague Drones exclusive to the Death Guard? Why is the Soul Grinder here but not other daemon engines? What about Chaos Spawn?
That's because Vortex Beasts, Tzaangors, Slaughterbrutes etc are Age of Sigmar. There are a lot of demon units that actual trickle into 40k specifically and are useable but not all.
Tzaangors and Mutalith Vortex Beasts are mortal entities found on the Planet of the Sorcerers in 40k, consider them more as Mutants than daemons. Soul Grinders are made in Demon Forges in the Warp by other daemons, however conventional Daemon engines (brass scorpion included) are made my mortal space marines in real space by binding a Daemon to a machine. The mechanical plague drone vs. The daemon plague drones are a similar case, with the daemons form being what you see in this book, and the mechanical being a construct built in real space. Finally, chaos spawn are again, mortal Mutants, who have been mutated beyond reason from too many "gifts" from the dark gods. This book is only what exists naturally in the Warp, whereas other books have the result of Chaos influence on realspace in the form of Mutants and Daemon engines. Hope this helps :)
@@jordanrollinson9838 That sounds way better than anything I said, like hot damn.
Maybe I missed him but where is Kairos Fateweaver? And how does he stack up again Lord of Change especially now with the whole Arka of Omen stuff now.
Poor Nurgle. They did you dirty =(
Flamers of tzeentch have strenght 5 not strenght 4
Be'lakor vs each faction leader, please?
150 points for a sqaud of pink horros is ridiculous
Also for plaguebires
Why is it ridiculous?
@@thetaomegatheta i play mono zt daemons, they are a great unit for objectives but i think they are overpriced when you consider a full sqaud of flamers are 150 points, Ive been taking blue horros instead only 70 points, not haveing obj secure and no actions hurts though, perhaps im underestimating the 3+ save but theres alot of units that can take out the 10 man sqaud before i get to roll for split. Also they have low damage ouput.
I think people undervalue Rotigus, maybe its just be as I am mainly a nurgle user but he is an absolute mid board terror for me, deluge of nurgle seems so strong when paired with smites, stream of corruption and nurgles rot, takes a few turns to get into nurgle rot range but it can pop silly damage, with the extra d3 mws on each 7+ cast aswell can do some very cheeky no los mws to a charecter or unit, 2d6 str 6 ap 3 flamer on top of that, when this guy gets close it really hurts, and his combat profile while nothing compared to a bloodthirster is still somewhat decent 6 at ap3 dmg 3.
I think flamer attack is actually s5 rather than s4
Do you expect to see the flamers being nerfed hard in next point updates or is it safe to get some for a new army ?
Its been rumoured that they will increase their points to 35 or 30
TLDR: The Blood is flowing, everything being on fire IS going just as planned, those Eldar buns are yours for the taking, and funny enough nobody gives a s#it about recent burn victims.
Poxbringer was so underwhelming that you even forgot you already listed them.
did you mention the masque of slanesh? hows he doing?
Sad nurgle noises
I thought the GUO had some tournament success?
so with the flamers and their auto hit, does that mean they also automatically hit while doing overwatch? or is just on 6 for them then aswell?
They autohit in overwatch like all flamer weapons. They never make a roll to hit so there would be no hitting on 6s. Hope that helps.
I saw your debate on change VS Fluxcaster. Big takeaway is the fact that only the Flux gives them 6 to hit at range auto wounds. Changecaster is 6's in melee, which would be great if it counted the wound roll as a 6 so you could cause mortals..
I said it from the get go: this codex is pretty mediocre and won’t compete against top tier armies.. especially with what I’ve seen from The Squats..
Notice Votann had pretty much every unit in tier 1
Well when you only have a hand full of units you kinda have to be
@@legoking1001 outside HQs daemons literally have 4 units per god
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s that doesn't matter. Daemons have over 50 datasheets, not every single one is gonna be tier 1
Votann have a fifth of that so they need more quality units to be playable
@@legoking1001 and 30+ of them are HQs
@@user-zh8dr1qt1s what does that have to do with votann being nearly all tier 1
Yeah we have a lot of HQs but we still have plenty of strong units, more than votann
Yeah daemons are very hq heavy but it doesn't matter
Can you do one for best daemons to ally into CSM?
Isn’t the flamers strength 5 in the codex?
Bloodletters have Ap -3 not 2
I would love to see you order the units within the Tiers from worst to best or the other way around.
Could you do a video on Khorne lists?
Don't need one, just take bloodthirsters and bloodletters, you're done.
@@JimH. how many and what gear?
2:28 Skull altar is 50pts not 75 (unless i already missed an FAQ XD)
great vid, flamers are just *chefs kiss*
why didn't they move loads of the support characters into elites?!
For every greater demon you can take a herald without filling a slot. That wasn't mentioned
@@johnriberlarsen fair one. Just seems odd to not put the harp girl and bagpipe dude in elites
Pinks are WAY too expensive for a backfield unit. 150 points is way too much for that purpose.
Hard to miss with large flames eh?
I wish they keeped the fight first atleast for Slaanesh
Wish I get some changeling love -.-
Blood altar can deepstrike..... makes it much betyer than tier 4
I have 60 plaguebearers, 3 GUO, hirticulus, epidemius... So sad
I have 90 plaguebearers...That teaches me for playing the horde army like a horde i guess.
@@18120polls could you play the 90 PB using one battallion and one patrol?
@@jpick8245 Yes. But then thats 1350 points worth of bodies that deal 0 damage. And i have to put in a minimum of 3 HQs. While possible, i dont think it could be good.
@@18120polls thanks!
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Seems like Daemons may need some nerfs to the top end and buffs to the lower end.
Why? As in, why the nerfs (except to the flamers)?
inb4 flamers lose core
Im so confused why everyone keeps pushing the horrors of Tzeentch as some of the top tier units when in reality they are arguably some of the most objectively worst units in game of any army, they have next to no killing power with S3 AP0 D1 with 1 shot, their Toughness is 3 so bolters will shred through them, and if something makes it into melee combat with them, Tau fire warriors for instance, will auto kill them......I just.....am so wildly confused why everyone is pushing them as the premiere top choice for daemon units when they fail in every single category.....
Did you even read the codex? Pinks have S4 AP-1 D1 Assault 2 shots, and they have a 3+ invuln save against ranged attacks, and they have a 50% chance of splitting into 2 blue horrors if they die. While they don't have the most damage, they are extremely difficult to remove from a point. Also people recommend blue horrors because they are the cheapest troop choice in the book that fills requirements for detachments.
Daemon saves were too overhyped.
They've been relevant 0 times in my games with new Daemons.
You mean the community overreacting and cherry picking parts of a codex to scream "new codex over powered on purpose to sell models!??!?! Stupid GW!! hate then!!! Boycot!!!". In truth it is fine. Same with Leagues of Voltann the hysterical outrage from the community is a little embarrassing.
@@Keplaves exactly!
@@Keplaves Until the absurd LoV HQs roflstomp anything in your army and you're like dude... wtf?
First
grrrrr
Cringe
Dude, it wasn't cool when people did this 20 years ago. It isn't cool now. Please stop.
@@yerwotm8 lol