ted your videos are very educational and I really enjoy them but do have some difficulty understanding all the differences in hardness KH v gh for example please consider doing a video explaining them thanks again
Hello: I am a grad of UW-Madison. I now live in the higher desert area of CA. Here, the day time temp will always be above freezing, although it may drop to 20 F a few very cold winter nights. I don't believe I need to store RO water. I just turn on the high pressure valve to the RO unit to fill and turn off to stop RO. Besides the low temp in the mid-west, the issue of too slow a fill with RO can be considered. At 150 gal/day, 6 gal/hour, the fill can be fast enough. One should plan the filtration and aeration (life-support) so that they will function well enough at the reduced water level for perhaps 4 hours, 25 gals. To increase RO production, one does not need more filters and canisters, just RO membrane and housing, $50 for each additional 150 GPD. How does storing RO water help? Consdier the saving in space (footprint) of a storage tank. There is a rate of fill to the storage tank so the issue of rate of generation is critical with or without a storage . Perhaps if the water is treated with chloramine it is a bit too bold to fill with RO water directly without addition of Prime or similar chemical into a storage tank. Here, I also do not need to fill with warm water. The drip is so slow that 55F water (cold) will warm fast enough when the air temp is high enough. Perhaps a space heater control by a timer to increase the temp of the air by 2-4 degrees just before water fill would work, if necessary at all.
If I were only using the RO water of one tank I might have been able to get away with having the water go directly to the aquarium, but in that facility I needed 300-400 gallons of RO water at a time to prepare tanks for new stock and to do water changes on soft-water breeders. The investment in storage tanks and delivery made more sense that investing in an industrial 'on demand' RO machine that would let me fill tanks quickly without storage.
I suppose there is a difference between a fish breeder and a dealer/re-seller. A breeder's requirement for RO water is more stable and does not fluctuate as much. If a breeder just change 40% of water with RO water every three days, then there is little advantage in storing RO water. If the tanks' life-support system (aeration and filtration) functions well enough for several hours with reduced water level, then automated slow fill (using timers) at any time of the day will function very well. Storing and not storing do not affect the total RO water generated and used.
+Jeremy Phillips Because those pre-configured restrictors are not exact either. All flow rates depend a lot on pressure. But the capillary restrictors are adjustable, whereas the pre-configured are not. I am going to order a longer restrictor because this one is giving me a 3.5:1 ratio, and I may want closer to a 4:1. The higher the ratio the longer the life of the membrane.
+Ted Judy I'd be curious to know how much faster membranes foul at 4:1 vs 3:1... The cost of waste water over the life of the membrane might be more than the cost of the replacement membrane (unless you aren't charged per gallon). I did some quick searching online but wasn't able to find many direct answers. I'm sure there are multiple factors to consider (inlet pressure, water quality into the membrane, cost of water per gallon, membrane flush frequency, etc.)
+Jeremy Phillips The difference in the cost of waste water at 4:1 vs 3.5:1 is not all that much. For example, if total water cost is (I am rounding here for ease) $10/1000 gallons, and the waste water ratio difference is .5.... then producing 500 gallons of RO would produce 2000 gallons of waste (at 4:1) or 1750 gallons at 3.5:1. That is a difference of 250 gallons waste, at a cost of $2.50. So in one year (making 500 gallons per month), the total savings of going with the lower ratio would be $30 ($2.50 x 12 months). The cost of a membrane is usually $60-$70. So, for argument's sake, I would be breaking even if I stay with the lower waste ratio and buying new membranes (I use two of them) every four years. If the membranes do not last 4 years at the lower waste ratio, I am losing money. My water cost is actually about $8.50/1000 gallons, so the actual calculations would mean the membranes would have to last longer.
+GJmelb gh is specifically calcium and magnesium, so you can increase that without affecting KH easily enough. Calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) will do it for you. KH can be increased with an carbonate. There are lots of products on the market for doing what you want. Take a look at the remineralizer products being sold for shrimp (try www.discobee.com), as that sector of the hobby has gotten reconstituting RO down to a science.
It saves water if you feed the waste water of the first membrane into the in-flow of the second membrane. The TDS of the combined (and averaged) product water is only slightly increased, but the savings in water used is more significant. The input water pressure into the first membrane has to be high, 60 psi, not marginal.
have you looked at spectra-pure's UHP system? with 1:1 waste to product water ratio? i don't currently keep any fish. you think you have hard water, my tap tds reads ~390, and my tap water nitrates is somewhere between 15 and 40 ppm!!!
+Jeremy Basch I think that you need to be careful using waste water for Africans, depending upon what your tap water contains. Not all hard water is composed of the same minerals. I use a whole-building water softener which removed virtually all the calcium and magnesium, but it leaves about 1/2 of the carbonate hardness (KH). The RO removes the KH when it is functioning correctly. A water softener is supposed to make it possible to have a 2.5 ratio and still get good water, but that was not the case with my unit. I shortened my restrictor down to a 2.5 ratio when I installed the water softener. All was good for a few months, but the membranes soon crapped out.
ted your videos are very educational and I really enjoy them but do have some difficulty understanding all the differences in hardness KH v gh for example please consider doing a video explaining them thanks again
great video
Hello: I am a grad of UW-Madison. I now live in the higher desert area of CA.
Here, the day time temp will always be above freezing, although it may drop to 20 F a few very cold winter nights. I don't believe I need to store RO water. I just turn on the high pressure valve to the RO unit to fill and turn off to stop RO.
Besides the low temp in the mid-west, the issue of too slow a fill with RO can be considered. At 150 gal/day, 6 gal/hour, the fill can be fast enough. One should plan the filtration and aeration (life-support) so that they will function well enough at the reduced water level for perhaps 4 hours, 25 gals. To increase RO production, one does not need more filters and canisters, just RO membrane and housing, $50 for each additional 150 GPD. How does storing RO water help? Consdier the saving in space (footprint) of a storage tank.
There is a rate of fill to the storage tank so the issue of rate of generation is critical with or without a storage . Perhaps if the water is treated with chloramine it is a bit too bold to fill with RO water directly without addition of Prime or similar chemical into a storage tank.
Here, I also do not need to fill with warm water. The drip is so slow that 55F water (cold) will warm fast enough when the air temp is high enough. Perhaps a space heater control by a timer to increase the temp of the air by 2-4 degrees just before water fill would work, if necessary at all.
If I were only using the RO water of one tank I might have been able to get away with having the water go directly to the aquarium, but in that facility I needed 300-400 gallons of RO water at a time to prepare tanks for new stock and to do water changes on soft-water breeders. The investment in storage tanks and delivery made more sense that investing in an industrial 'on demand' RO machine that would let me fill tanks quickly without storage.
I suppose there is a difference between a fish breeder and a dealer/re-seller.
A breeder's requirement for RO water is more stable and does not fluctuate as much. If a breeder just change 40% of water with RO water every three days, then there is little advantage in storing RO water. If the tanks' life-support system (aeration and filtration) functions well enough for several hours with reduced water level, then automated slow fill (using timers) at any time of the day will function very well. Storing and not storing do not affect the total RO water generated and used.
Looks like a Bomb !!!
Hi Ted, where do you buy the TDS meter? Thanks
I got it with the RO unit from SpectraPure
Hello
Aquafilter makes 300GPD RO membrane and dedicated flow restrictor 1200mlm for it. That gives ratio of 1,5. Is that ok? What do You think?
Is there a reason you choose to use the capillary flow restrictors vs. some of the other pre-configured flow restrictors (75 GPD, etc)?
+Jeremy Phillips Because those pre-configured restrictors are not exact either. All flow rates depend a lot on pressure. But the capillary restrictors are adjustable, whereas the pre-configured are not. I am going to order a longer restrictor because this one is giving me a 3.5:1 ratio, and I may want closer to a 4:1. The higher the ratio the longer the life of the membrane.
+Ted Judy I'd be curious to know how much faster membranes foul at 4:1 vs 3:1... The cost of waste water over the life of the membrane might be more than the cost of the replacement membrane (unless you aren't charged per gallon). I did some quick searching online but wasn't able to find many direct answers. I'm sure there are multiple factors to consider (inlet pressure, water quality into the membrane, cost of water per gallon, membrane flush frequency, etc.)
+Jeremy Phillips The difference in the cost of waste water at 4:1 vs 3.5:1 is not all that much. For example, if total water cost is (I am rounding here for ease) $10/1000 gallons, and the waste water ratio difference is .5.... then producing 500 gallons of RO would produce 2000 gallons of waste (at 4:1) or 1750 gallons at 3.5:1. That is a difference of 250 gallons waste, at a cost of $2.50. So in one year (making 500 gallons per month), the total savings of going with the lower ratio would be $30 ($2.50 x 12 months). The cost of a membrane is usually $60-$70. So, for argument's sake, I would be breaking even if I stay with the lower waste ratio and buying new membranes (I use two of them) every four years. If the membranes do not last 4 years at the lower waste ratio, I am losing money. My water cost is actually about $8.50/1000 gallons, so the actual calculations would mean the membranes would have to last longer.
I notice you didn't mention about remineralizing your water how come? Do you just age and use?
+Rico Suave Reconstituting RO water is a topic all by itself. I will try to come up with a good way to present that.
Ted Judy cant wait
+GJmelb gh is specifically calcium and magnesium, so you can increase that without affecting KH easily enough. Calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) will do it for you. KH can be increased with an carbonate. There are lots of products on the market for doing what you want. Take a look at the remineralizer products being sold for shrimp (try www.discobee.com), as that sector of the hobby has gotten reconstituting RO down to a science.
Yeah but your not using straight RO water for apistos are you? Whats the ration of RO : Tap that you are using?
+jaycal75 I use very little tap at all. It is incredibly hard. 10:1 RO:tap...
HI ted what will happen if you recycle the waste water and you pass it again through the membrane?
+Alfio Bartolo I think that it would be harder on the membrane, but I assume that it could be done.
It saves water if you feed the waste water of the first membrane into the in-flow of the second membrane. The TDS of the combined (and averaged) product water is only slightly increased, but the savings in water used is more significant.
The input water pressure into the first membrane has to be high, 60 psi, not marginal.
word :)
have you looked at spectra-pure's UHP system? with 1:1 waste to product water ratio? i don't currently keep any fish. you think you have hard water, my tap tds reads ~390, and my tap water nitrates is somewhere between 15 and 40 ppm!!!
I have not, but I will! A 1:1 ratio would be awesome.
Any reason you couldn't use the waste water on African Cichlids? There is also a way to increase production of the R/O water. Great video as always!
+Jeremy Basch I think that you need to be careful using waste water for Africans, depending upon what your tap water contains. Not all hard water is composed of the same minerals. I use a whole-building water softener which removed virtually all the calcium and magnesium, but it leaves about 1/2 of the carbonate hardness (KH). The RO removes the KH when it is functioning correctly. A water softener is supposed to make it possible to have a 2.5 ratio and still get good water, but that was not the case with my unit. I shortened my restrictor down to a 2.5 ratio when I installed the water softener. All was good for a few months, but the membranes soon crapped out.
+Ted Judy Thank Ted!