This was extremely helpful! I haven't played Stationers for quite a while, in fact it was well before the phase change update, so all this liquid to gas and gas to liquid stuff was extremely confusing. I tried watching the usual suspects on youtube *(no offense to those guys I have learned so much from them) but CaE and Elmo just did not explain all this at a level where I could grasp it well. Your video's on phase change have really helped me to understand a bit of what's going on. Now I just have to see if I can implement it. What I'm trying to figure out now is if I can make a giant heat sink... Dump all the heat into it during the day, then purge the whole thing out and suck in night atmosphere again to start over...
Glad to have been of help. Amidst the annoyance and potential problemx due to phase change, you can use quite a bit of it to really take atmospherics to a different level. It really isnt very intuitive and sometimes it just takes some practice with it to make it click and use it to your advantage. Hopefully once you start to build your own heat pumps with the phase change devices or another custom build it will help expand your ability to manipulate temps with it. Vulcan night temps do allow some interesting potential to get some nice cooling done when you condense night time pollutants and can let it evaporate. Same with Europa and condensing Oxygen to start with making a heater. I have expanded this test build since now we have insulated in-line tanks. Those have helped remove the need for putting the devices and in-line tanks inside a pressurized or vacuumed space.
I will go back and show up to date builds especially for the Vulcan and Europa ones to show at least how the Counterflow heat exchangers affect the builds. They can really help offset the temperature range you would see from the Latent Heat / specific heat since it changes the temperatures of the coolant between the two chambers.
You can write a max pressure to the active vents and then you don't need the the drain on the intake. think you can do it for powered vents also, but I haven't used them yet.
I think later on i decided to just have the chips change the mode so night time = pressurize and daytime = depressurize.. I had a general idea going in but i suppose that was better than me trying to figure out how many more logic chips to use for the digital valve.
What if you just used a night time active vent with the PressureInternal variable limited to like 8 MPa. That would cause the pollutant to condense. Put a back pressure regulator on that, but set it to somewhere between 6 MPa and 8 MPa. That would cause it to dump out the vol and CO2. Then the liquid goes through your condensation valve, and then evaporation valve, and you can run it indefinitely without overpressurizing anything.
Thats a pretty good idea thinking about it. It would remove the fact that I have the utility pipes as kind of a pressure storage because I realize that the Volatiles and CO2 dont leave and also the heat gained from condensation should be removed as well. I'll need to test this out and see because if it can keep the liquids from exceeding say 135C, then it has the potential to bring the next stage down to about 55C at the lowest and keep the system going for longer in the daytime when we cant condense anything. It definitely is worth a try if it can save some resources and time when the heat stress is getting to a player, especially on a brutal start.
@shadowdrake082 I just tried it and the output is around 50C or so. Less than that with no load on the system. It's cold enough that you can hook an A/C waste pipe directly to it. But my whole setup had one active vent, two BPRs, and one purge valve, plus the logic. So 450W continuous. Not great. Once you count the AC power it's worse than a wall cooler, which can also cool to Vulcan night air.
That is true, definitely a downside. As it is the goal was to get a system that works better and for a longer period of time as an equivalent atmospherics AC power draw. Obviously the materials cost would be higher, but it would be an advantage if the cooling was capable of working to cool to room temp and keep the cooling going in a windowed room during the day. It is still an improvement, and could be worth it to ensure the cooling capacity can go for a longer period of time. I think it can be at least something to add to help the system work for a little longer if you havent found a permanent solution yet.
I did try the vacuum space because at the time we didnt have the insulated in-line tanks. It worked as I expected it to when the condenser's section was in a vacuumed space. Without it, the normal vulcan daytime would quickly overload any cooling you can do. But now that we have insulated in line tanks, that will save the time of having to enclose it and vacuuming out the space.
@@fuse98 It did, but the main benefit is that it kept the condenser's cooling pipe from heating up past 100 where then the whole system would stop cooling my base. THolding the atmosphere definitely hurt because that extra heat was seeping back in slowly, but letting the pipe network be exposed to daytime temps was even worse.
@@shadowdrake082 Good to know. Any plans on doing a Brutal Vulcan series in the future? I'm giving it a go, with the Plants and Nutrition mod also ... it's hectic. Love it.
@@fuse98 I did start a playthrough finally on my own... 3 deaths so far... well technically 2 but for sure 1 because I vented a waste tank and somehow set my package of water bottles, cereal bars, and seeds on fire on day 2.
I attempted to make a similar setup, but for some reason mine keeps stalling. I have logic set to draw in from outside when the temp is under 130C and filter the pollutants into the system. The intake is at a constant 152C stable and pressurized to 10.5MPa. Using a few BPR and a purge valve to avoid over pressure situations, I have a lot of the cooler gas going back into the intake to help stableize it. The Condenser side of the system sits at approximately 102-104C and the pressure is set to 4985 to keep it in that range. The evaporator side is set to 3650 because I'm looking for a 25-30C temperature in my base, however the system keeps stalling at about 50C. Any ideas?
If your condenser is about 102C-104C, you would be at the limits of pollutants to get down to 20C from there since Latent Heat/specific heat is close to 80C. The hard part is that with the active vent, you can pressurize the pollutants and they would be leaving at close to 150C. If you can evaporate it, ideally it would get as close to 70, maybe 80C. How cold is the gas where the condensation chamber is trying to push the heat out? If the condenser can drop 10 degrees, you may be able to get the base down to 40C. The main difference between this build and now is we do have insulated in-line tanks now, potentially add a few to be able to have a larger buffer storage for the heat exchange line on the condensation chamber to try to keep your the chamber cooler longer, hopefully until you can refresh it with each night. If you got T2 pipe bender, first thing I would recommend is putting a counterflow heat exchanger between the evaporator and condensation chambers, that should allow you to get down to 20C, provided your condensation chamber doesnt hit 150C.
Nice. I think the next best thing you could show is a video for each of your videos so far but utilizing T2 tech to move to a mid game scenario. As far as Venus goes, you mentioned 2 Atmo AC units, that's obviously to get the Venus atmo down to less than 152 to allow the pollutant to liquify to build this system like on Vulcan? Biggest pain with that is the trace amount of X in the atmosphere, but at least you could gather it 24/7 since stable Temps aside from Storms.
That is true, I could go back and show how T2 can be added for improvements and any setting changes that result from that. Looking back I overpressurized my first Pollutant devices on Europa and need to drain some out, but I could also show how extra chambers can increase the speed of moving heat around. The brief jump I had on 25:40 did somewhat show some of my atmospheric system on Vulcan. I can probably make something short to talk about it again because I use something similar to that in all my planets for atmospheric control. I was theorycrafting and looking at each gases's specific heat, latent heat, and max condensation temp and pressure to see what it would take for Venus. From my notes and from watching Elmorix's "Let's Talk about Cooling" video which used Atmospheric Ac's pre phase change, it would be quite a build. Easily I wouldn't think rushing T1 is very viable. If I did my math right, ACs would step down temp from 55C to 70C, so if I pick 60C it would take two of them to go from 460 to 340C, which puts me in the range to use water as a coolant. I did the math and water's specific heat and latent heat gives us a range of 110C. It would take two loops (T1) to get down to 120-140 to allow me to use Pollutants and Nitrous oxide. And then it would take me still another two loops (T1) to get to 25C. In total the power draw would be 720W for two acs, 200W for the water loops, and another 200W for Pullutants. T1 is already at 1120 W and if T2 Heat exchangers eliminate 2 phase change device loops then I'm at 920W. I'm seeing just how pricey Venus is for power needed for cooling. Of course this is without using Elmo's AC trick of using just 2 ACs is very potent and hard to beat for Venus. I guess if Elmo's Ac configuration isnt used, it does save 5-6 AC's worth of power usage. I can see a phase change solution would be a mid game approach for Venus. I think the biggest problem is the need for water for phase change device when that is already a very needed resource for drinking, plants, O2 and/or volatiles, and to pressurize the phase change devices. I think yea the pollutants can be slowly built up and once the water is pressurized it can then be cooled and condensed.
I'm new to this stuff but what formulas or links to more about them could you share that you use for all your theorizing on atmospheric cooling in general?
@@fuse98 So with the atmospherics AC, Most of the information I got from Elmo's Video (ua-cam.com/video/oZ2pk27NfjQ/v-deo.html) talking about the AC system and some others. Generally it can do a 55-70 degree difference between input/output and waste before the efficiencies really crap out its performance. That will be helpful for setting them up and getting them up and running. As for Phase Change stuff, I go over quite a bit of details on my Phase Change Mechanics Video but in short you look at a gas's Specific Heat and Latent Heat to get how big a range of temperature difference you can do. Latent Heat divided by Specific Heat and you have a temperature range that a gas can increase or decrease from full evaporation or condensation. As far as how this all ties together, The specific heat will tell you how many Joules of energy it takes to heat or cool a mol of a gas by exactly 1 degree. The higher a gas's specific heat the overall more resistant it is to a temperature change. The latent Heat tells you how much Joules of energy per mol is released or consumed to complete a phase change.This is how I get my information for how limited I am with a coolant gas's ability to cool and why I tried to set my chambers the way I did in consideration for them and other sources. Admittedly I had a class on thermodynamics which is how I have a lot of background information on the science background so I'm not sure of any other links or resources I could point you to for a really deep dive, but I hope just working with the information provided by the Stationpedia should be most of what you need to work with in-game phase change related applications. I can keep trying to explain other things because I do forget to explain things that not everyone may have as background information to work with.
You must radiate transported heat somewhere oustside into atmosphere. Check out the thermal pump pricliple, or your refrigerator how to cool the beer. Yeah, passive cooler at backside. It heating. Condensation acts as a bottleneck in this case, bottleneck for effective cooling.
I'm aware of that. The intent of the build was more to have a method of having a thermal storage that gets replenished nightly to get a cooling system set up as early as possible without expending too many resources. The Back pressure regulator fulfills the role for expending overly hot pollutants out as the heat pump works. As it is radiators on vulcan will be useless for this compressor design because temps need to be
This was extremely helpful! I haven't played Stationers for quite a while, in fact it was well before the phase change update, so all this liquid to gas and gas to liquid stuff was extremely confusing. I tried watching the usual suspects on youtube *(no offense to those guys I have learned so much from them) but CaE and Elmo just did not explain all this at a level where I could grasp it well. Your video's on phase change have really helped me to understand a bit of what's going on. Now I just have to see if I can implement it. What I'm trying to figure out now is if I can make a giant heat sink... Dump all the heat into it during the day, then purge the whole thing out and suck in night atmosphere again to start over...
Glad to have been of help. Amidst the annoyance and potential problemx due to phase change, you can use quite a bit of it to really take atmospherics to a different level. It really isnt very intuitive and sometimes it just takes some practice with it to make it click and use it to your advantage. Hopefully once you start to build your own heat pumps with the phase change devices or another custom build it will help expand your ability to manipulate temps with it. Vulcan night temps do allow some interesting potential to get some nice cooling done when you condense night time pollutants and can let it evaporate. Same with Europa and condensing Oxygen to start with making a heater. I have expanded this test build since now we have insulated in-line tanks. Those have helped remove the need for putting the devices and in-line tanks inside a pressurized or vacuumed space.
I would suggest increase the gain on your mic under Obs settings, or whatever software you are using for capturing
This is very informative. I hope you do a T2 upgrade for this, so we can see it's full-game performance :)
I will go back and show up to date builds especially for the Vulcan and Europa ones to show at least how the Counterflow heat exchangers affect the builds. They can really help offset the temperature range you would see from the Latent Heat / specific heat since it changes the temperatures of the coolant between the two chambers.
You can write a max pressure to the active vents and then you don't need the the drain on the intake. think you can do it for powered vents also, but I haven't used them yet.
I think later on i decided to just have the chips change the mode so night time = pressurize and daytime = depressurize.. I had a general idea going in but i suppose that was better than me trying to figure out how many more logic chips to use for the digital valve.
What if you just used a night time active vent with the PressureInternal variable limited to like 8 MPa. That would cause the pollutant to condense. Put a back pressure regulator on that, but set it to somewhere between 6 MPa and 8 MPa. That would cause it to dump out the vol and CO2. Then the liquid goes through your condensation valve, and then evaporation valve, and you can run it indefinitely without overpressurizing anything.
Thats a pretty good idea thinking about it. It would remove the fact that I have the utility pipes as kind of a pressure storage because I realize that the Volatiles and CO2 dont leave and also the heat gained from condensation should be removed as well. I'll need to test this out and see because if it can keep the liquids from exceeding say 135C, then it has the potential to bring the next stage down to about 55C at the lowest and keep the system going for longer in the daytime when we cant condense anything. It definitely is worth a try if it can save some resources and time when the heat stress is getting to a player, especially on a brutal start.
@shadowdrake082 I just tried it and the output is around 50C or so. Less than that with no load on the system. It's cold enough that you can hook an A/C waste pipe directly to it. But my whole setup had one active vent, two BPRs, and one purge valve, plus the logic. So 450W continuous. Not great. Once you count the AC power it's worse than a wall cooler, which can also cool to Vulcan night air.
That is true, definitely a downside. As it is the goal was to get a system that works better and for a longer period of time as an equivalent atmospherics AC power draw. Obviously the materials cost would be higher, but it would be an advantage if the cooling was capable of working to cool to room temp and keep the cooling going in a windowed room during the day. It is still an improvement, and could be worth it to ensure the cooling capacity can go for a longer period of time. I think it can be at least something to add to help the system work for a little longer if you havent found a permanent solution yet.
@@shadowdrake082 I'm still working on a system that can be powered from a single active vent, with everything else passive. I think it's do-able.
Hey Shadow, did you ever test this setup out with a vacuumed space or insulated utility tanks for the Condensor cooling section?
I did try the vacuum space because at the time we didnt have the insulated in-line tanks. It worked as I expected it to when the condenser's section was in a vacuumed space. Without it, the normal vulcan daytime would quickly overload any cooling you can do. But now that we have insulated in line tanks, that will save the time of having to enclose it and vacuuming out the space.
@shadowdrake082 Did it cool significantly faster with the vacuum versus holding night time atmosphere whilst enclosed in your video?
@@fuse98 It did, but the main benefit is that it kept the condenser's cooling pipe from heating up past 100 where then the whole system would stop cooling my base. THolding the atmosphere definitely hurt because that extra heat was seeping back in slowly, but letting the pipe network be exposed to daytime temps was even worse.
@@shadowdrake082 Good to know. Any plans on doing a Brutal Vulcan series in the future? I'm giving it a go, with the Plants and Nutrition mod also ... it's hectic. Love it.
@@fuse98 I did start a playthrough finally on my own... 3 deaths so far... well technically 2 but for sure 1 because I vented a waste tank and somehow set my package of water bottles, cereal bars, and seeds on fire on day 2.
I attempted to make a similar setup, but for some reason mine keeps stalling.
I have logic set to draw in from outside when the temp is under 130C and filter the pollutants into the system. The intake is at a constant 152C stable and pressurized to 10.5MPa. Using a few BPR and a purge valve to avoid over pressure situations, I have a lot of the cooler gas going back into the intake to help stableize it. The Condenser side of the system sits at approximately 102-104C and the pressure is set to 4985 to keep it in that range. The evaporator side is set to 3650 because I'm looking for a 25-30C temperature in my base, however the system keeps stalling at about 50C.
Any ideas?
If your condenser is about 102C-104C, you would be at the limits of pollutants to get down to 20C from there since Latent Heat/specific heat is close to 80C. The hard part is that with the active vent, you can pressurize the pollutants and they would be leaving at close to 150C. If you can evaporate it, ideally it would get as close to 70, maybe 80C. How cold is the gas where the condensation chamber is trying to push the heat out? If the condenser can drop 10 degrees, you may be able to get the base down to 40C.
The main difference between this build and now is we do have insulated in-line tanks now, potentially add a few to be able to have a larger buffer storage for the heat exchange line on the condensation chamber to try to keep your the chamber cooler longer, hopefully until you can refresh it with each night. If you got T2 pipe bender, first thing I would recommend is putting a counterflow heat exchanger between the evaporator and condensation chambers, that should allow you to get down to 20C, provided your condensation chamber doesnt hit 150C.
Nice.
I think the next best thing you could show is a video for each of your videos so far but utilizing T2 tech to move to a mid game scenario.
As far as Venus goes, you mentioned 2 Atmo AC units, that's obviously to get the Venus atmo down to less than 152 to allow the pollutant to liquify to build this system like on Vulcan? Biggest pain with that is the trace amount of X in the atmosphere, but at least you could gather it 24/7 since stable Temps aside from Storms.
That is true, I could go back and show how T2 can be added for improvements and any setting changes that result from that. Looking back I overpressurized my first Pollutant devices on Europa and need to drain some out, but I could also show how extra chambers can increase the speed of moving heat around. The brief jump I had on 25:40 did somewhat show some of my atmospheric system on Vulcan. I can probably make something short to talk about it again because I use something similar to that in all my planets for atmospheric control.
I was theorycrafting and looking at each gases's specific heat, latent heat, and max condensation temp and pressure to see what it would take for Venus. From my notes and from watching Elmorix's "Let's Talk about Cooling" video which used Atmospheric Ac's pre phase change, it would be quite a build. Easily I wouldn't think rushing T1 is very viable. If I did my math right, ACs would step down temp from 55C to 70C, so if I pick 60C it would take two of them to go from 460 to 340C, which puts me in the range to use water as a coolant. I did the math and water's specific heat and latent heat gives us a range of 110C. It would take two loops (T1) to get down to 120-140 to allow me to use Pollutants and Nitrous oxide. And then it would take me still another two loops (T1) to get to 25C. In total the power draw would be 720W for two acs, 200W for the water loops, and another 200W for Pullutants. T1 is already at 1120 W and if T2 Heat exchangers eliminate 2 phase change device loops then I'm at 920W. I'm seeing just how pricey Venus is for power needed for cooling. Of course this is without using Elmo's AC trick of using just 2 ACs is very potent and hard to beat for Venus.
I guess if Elmo's Ac configuration isnt used, it does save 5-6 AC's worth of power usage. I can see a phase change solution would be a mid game approach for Venus. I think the biggest problem is the need for water for phase change device when that is already a very needed resource for drinking, plants, O2 and/or volatiles, and to pressurize the phase change devices. I think yea the pollutants can be slowly built up and once the water is pressurized it can then be cooled and condensed.
I'm new to this stuff but what formulas or links to more about them could you share that you use for all your theorizing on atmospheric cooling in general?
@@fuse98
So with the atmospherics AC, Most of the information I got from Elmo's Video (ua-cam.com/video/oZ2pk27NfjQ/v-deo.html) talking about the AC system and some others. Generally it can do a 55-70 degree difference between input/output and waste before the efficiencies really crap out its performance. That will be helpful for setting them up and getting them up and running.
As for Phase Change stuff, I go over quite a bit of details on my Phase Change Mechanics Video but in short you look at a gas's Specific Heat and Latent Heat to get how big a range of temperature difference you can do. Latent Heat divided by Specific Heat and you have a temperature range that a gas can increase or decrease from full evaporation or condensation. As far as how this all ties together, The specific heat will tell you how many Joules of energy it takes to heat or cool a mol of a gas by exactly 1 degree. The higher a gas's specific heat the overall more resistant it is to a temperature change. The latent Heat tells you how much Joules of energy per mol is released or consumed to complete a phase change.This is how I get my information for how limited I am with a coolant gas's ability to cool and why I tried to set my chambers the way I did in consideration for them and other sources. Admittedly I had a class on thermodynamics which is how I have a lot of background information on the science background so I'm not sure of any other links or resources I could point you to for a really deep dive, but I hope just working with the information provided by the Stationpedia should be most of what you need to work with in-game phase change related applications.
I can keep trying to explain other things because I do forget to explain things that not everyone may have as background information to work with.
Thanks!
You must radiate transported heat somewhere oustside into atmosphere. Check out the thermal pump pricliple, or your refrigerator how to cool the beer. Yeah, passive cooler at backside. It heating. Condensation acts as a bottleneck in this case, bottleneck for effective cooling.
I'm aware of that. The intent of the build was more to have a method of having a thermal storage that gets replenished nightly to get a cooling system set up as early as possible without expending too many resources. The Back pressure regulator fulfills the role for expending overly hot pollutants out as the heat pump works. As it is radiators on vulcan will be useless for this compressor design because temps need to be