Comfort is vitally important, and kit has to be affordable. But anyone buying gear can judge that for themselves - what they can't do is assess how well it compares to other gear for abrasion resistance, seam strength, tear strength, impact protection etc. If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it? Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum. Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful. There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have. John Milbank
Just pasting in a great comment that was previously pinned from @jakeguymer-davies6427 "I'm a paramedic, I work in London and it seems the only bikers we need to treat are those not wearing proper gear- boots make a massive difference and pads are a must, at least for slower crashes. Yes you're dead after a certain speed regardless, but standard gear can mean the difference between walking away and spending the night in hospital. I'm travelling with my bike at the moment and hit a llama at 50mph- my Adventurespec gear with all the pads meant all i had was a grazed elbow and a limp after the bike landed on my boot. No way i am taking my armour out!"
Two words “Regulatory Capture”. We are purchasing equipment based on standards agreed by the manufacturers themselves and endorsed by the EU. Lest we all forget the level of protection these give were reduced last time around. Rather than demand increased levels of protection the manufacturers and the EU agreed on reduced levels. If you compare this approach to that adopted by Brian Sansom (proprietor BKS Leathers) namely protection to the Cambridge Standards you will find a manufacturer whose aim is to protect his customers to the highest levels. If you have an Aerostich suit you will find their armour is not EC marked, if you crash in their gear you will find that you it does works very well. Personal anecdotes only really help where one has identical experiences so I won’t tell you my crash stories. The point is that many manufacturers used to provide better protection working to higher standards, they colluded with the EU to reduce the levels of protection in their pursuit of profit. Your decision to wear armour or not is entirely yours- if you decide armour is a good idea then don’t believe all you read and hear, maybe make your own judgement, the much vaunted EU standards are there to protect but not maybe the people we thought.
@@bobklee2397 If 'regulatory capture' is the point some are taking from this, then it's perhaps worth pointing out that we've been pushing for optional higher safety levels for a long time (and no, it doesn't affect insurance)... After some brands opposed optional higher safety standards, we called them out on it. We launched the High Performance Awards to give those that want to give riders choice a chance to prove higher protection. We called out misinformation on riding jeans... there's a lot more too if you want to look into it. ua-cam.com/video/n22vtWc8QRw/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-safety-ce-standards www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
Once you buy into how sales works then the anything is better than nothing takes hold and your wallet is open season. MIPS helmets are sold in the same way, somehow your head impacting the ground at nearly 100 feet per second or even half of that is going to be better protected by a helmet that allows the shell to move some small fraction of distance because the remaining time of impact magically disappears. Part of learning is to be able to discern the intent of what someone else os trying to explain. In that F9( was pretty clear although eog gets in the way for many). He referred to impact, not abrasion other than to say armor did have some value in preventing abrasion. But lets be honest, there are different qualities of armor and most are just pads flopping around inside a pocket sewen into a jacket or pants right? How many of those armored items keep the pads where they can do any good? Few. So instead of listening to what F9 said lets all jump on the bandwagon of buy any armor because anything is better than nothing. Lets not advocate for better than what there is, lets instead sit around and figure out how to shoot down the very simple message that the standards used to sell armor are actually useless even if the armor is better than nothing. There s a difference between the standards being useless and the armor not being so. Its difficult to think critically instead of going for the controvesy and try to piggy-back on someone else's popularity as is being done in this video but enough people did seem to figure out what F9 was saying. The bottom line is that despite my not really being enamoured with F9's sharpie physics and many other out there ideas, he accomplished in that short video something you could never do, generate awareness among litterlly thousands and thousands of people who might complain about him but after a while think about the standards they so willingly accept as being more than something manufacturers and a few others dreamed up to sell armor.
And we need to remember that this is not the entirety of Ryan’s argument. In a previous video he showed stats about various types of injury and advocated for sensible use of protective equipment and the money spent on it. Good boots and good gloves with sliders on the heel of the hand along with a helmet and abrasive resistant clothing would statistically protect riders far better than the best armored one piece suit. This is another installment in his argument. The knee armor in my pants doesn’t stay in place and did not protect me in a previous crash. The rest of it did its job (maybe) but I wasn’t wearing good boots and my left ankle and foot were severely damaged.
I have a good friend who, years ago, ended up needing a hip replacement after a low-speed driveway tipover. He was in his 20's at the time. This is entirely anecdotal and assertive, of course, but I suspect that there are a lot of less-than-catastrophic accidents, esp. those that don't involve calling the authorities or paramedics, that don''t get reported, as they're less severe. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that some armor coverage would at the very least help lessen the severity of "abrasions, bruising, and lacerations."
Same. I'll be keeping the armour. I've had accidents with and without armour. Armour saves a lot of pain. Especially since the clothing its in is certified to a standard. Bonus points because I get to keep my skin on also.
Not sure what you're talking about. This video hasn't provided _any_ evidence that armour is worth it. It's two people with a hunch that differs from Ryans.
I'm a paramedic, I work in London and it seems the only bikers we need to treat are those not wearing proper gear- boots make a massive difference and pads are a must, at least for slower crashes. Yes you're dead after a certain speed regardless, but standard gear can mean the difference between walking away and spending the night in hospital. I'm travelling with my bike at the moment and hit a llama at 50mph- my Adventurespec gear with all the pads meant all i had was a grazed elbow and a limp after the bike landed on my boot. No way i am taking my armour out!
This is another reason the test data is not a significant enough sample size. They aren't going to interview people who fell off bikes, got up and rode back home. They'll only look at data for people who are hospitalized or treated. Somewhat like a survivor bias (but the opposite case here). If you're in bad enough accident to get treatment/participate in the data collection, you're already in bad shape
I'll echo the sentiment about boots. I highsided in casual motorcycle trainers and smashed my foot up, and 9 months later I'm still not healed fully. Foot injuries are so complicated to fix, I would have much rather snapped my leg.
Good to hear from someone on the front line and a great job you all do. I often wear ankle High motorcycle boots not full hight, which have ankle protection and Z plate in the sole. Are the injuries you treat from riders wearing trainers or these type of foot protection? Cheers Matt
One of Fortnine's key points was manufacturers' misleading marketing regarding armor, which was valid. He also suggested that short of full a MotoGP suit, motorcycle gear sold by all the big brands mainly reduces road rash, not fractures. Fractures are rarely mentioned in the hundreds of moto apparel marketing videos on UA-cam today (i.e., Revzilla). My takeaway from Ryan Fortnine: There is room for improvement in both the armor and the marketing.
@@mike_honcho_92 Which, when it's referred to as "impact protection" is quite important, and entirely the takeaway of his video. It's similar to calling something "stab-proof" when it offers very little puncture resistance, but does a good job mitigating slashes. "Yeah it doesn't do what the name implies, but it's still useful for other things."
He complained that the manufactorers were too minimalisitisch in designing protectors… so he removes them. In my opinion that channel is looking for controversie, and losing credibility,
F9 is very entertaining, but anyone who's been up the road on his arse (myself included) knows that those pads help. Ryan made valid points about impact protection relating to bone fractures and no doubt improvements there would be helpful, but in the mean time I'll be keeping my pads firmly in place.
It's odd that his takeaway from the research appeared to be that "these pads should be required to do more to be fully effective, so I'm removing them".
Same, crashed once in a semi slow lowside, landed on my hip. If i hadnt worn pants with pads in the hip area i would have not walk away easily. Now i did with no issue at all except a minor bruise.
One thing often overlooked in gear discussions is the everyday riding accidents that don't get reported. How many riders have a tip over in their driveway or corner stop, or run a curb, etc and do NOT get injured because they had armor - and nothing is reported? Their buddy has a similar accident and breaks his elbow - without armor - and just reports it as a fall.
When we were regularly riding 2 up on a loaded GS there were a number of occasions where we over balanced while parking or getting fuel or making a slow speed turn. Having armour is really important when you go to cushion your fall with your elbow/shoulder and fall on your hip. I have sometimes lost my balance when trying to swing my leg off the tall seat on my dirtbike and hit the ground-same story.
@@bennettsbikesocial Aka survivor's bias? +1 I still take it from Ryan's usual shenanigans it must have been an April fool's awareness wake up call. Reverse psychology. And it worked in a cynical "bad news is good news" approach, didn't it? People began thinking: "NO WAY!" and that's good - raising attention. [Especially as he mentioned he does wear full armour offroad and on race tracks, and Helite's mech air vest on everyday riding, iirc?] ATTGAT: Mine will stay on. As a thin guy I wish I could afford better fitting stuff like Stadler or Schwabenleder than Hein Gericke's last sale offered. At least Held Kangaroo leather gloves, Alpine Stars Crossboots and Schuberth helmet have been my must have. An airbag vest is on my list, but €€€ plus yearly leasing rates for electronic features?! 👎 Come on folks at Dainese etc., who are you, Adobe?
Agree, when I first started riding, I was doing low speed drills in a paved parking lot. Lost my balance and went down with the bike. The first thing that hit the pavement was my elbow. I had an armored jacket on with elbow protection and I didn’t feel much of anything. If I would have not had that, I’m certain I would have broken my elbow.
No one is talking about the elephant in the room. It should be obvious that most armor moves. Especially for shoulder & elbows. The cloth pockets they are contained in have a lot of give & allow much movement. This is not the case for a thick leather jacket.
F9 made this a topic and thats a really good thing and I hope it goes viral in the industry so well done Bennetts for pushing this. I don't agree with Ryan about not wearing armour, its clear there is still a geniune benefit. F9 however made a very good point about the high allowable transmitable forces. I mean why do the standards stop at level 2 if there is passive armour out there that can exceed it? you can find level 2 on budget jackets/ suits and its the same standard when spending 5 times more. Then learning about the stnadards take no account for the size of the clothing. It starts to loose credibility when you see all the gaps. I think we can and should expect better form the indsutry, so I hope they take note.
Since 1979 I ride with armours. Now since over 900.000 Km. If something went wrong, I stood up, had a little shake, and continued my journey. The last time I had a Touchdown was two years ago on a muddy rural way. My handlebar hits my breast. Pain, but no injuries. Next week I bought breast pads for my Dainese Jacket. Each protector helps the surgeon to have less work. Sorry for my bad English😊
@@Titan500J The amount of biker padding has to be adjusted antiproportinally to situation on the labour market of medical professionals. Should we ever encounter a situation of rising unemployment amongst medical professionals, wearing less armour would be strongly advised.
As an almost 70 year old biker that passed my test mid 70s and, after a long break (kids,wife,house, work) I have been back 'into' biking for just seven years. I would NEVER go out either just for a short ride or, for a three week trip without armour in my bike clothing! And, all the armour that i have is level 2. To me it's madness to remove any is it just for comfort. Bye the way, I can remember riding in just an old combat jacket and ordinary jeans! Friggin mad😞.
Yeah I immediately thought his video was extremely reductive, with the argument boiling down to "you'll still break your bones". Even if that was 100% true, there is so much more to injuries and protection!! I'll take any damage reduction those pads bring, any day of the week.
But is it enough? Do you have enough confidence in your gear that mitigates the risk of riding a motorcycle. A study in 2013 found jackets do not provide protection against spinal, abdominal, pelvic and other internal injuries.
If you want to be sure to stay in one piece, don't go riding. If you go riding, choose the best protection in your budget. For most people, that will certainly include armour.
@@bcinspectorman motorcycle gear can't protect you from every type of injury, that's simply a fact, but it decreases the chance of sustaining injuries and that's the entire point. You can't make gear that protects you from everything because there's too many variables, but the way they make gear is by protecting parts that are the most susceptible to injuries in an accident and try to keep you as mobile as possible because being able to move around on a motorcycle is quite crucial. If you wanna be 99% safe on the road you'll need a fully caged car with bucket seats, harnesses, hans device etc and even then with some bad luck you could still end up severely injured or worse. Just do your best to keep yourself safe and that's all you can do
@@bcinspectorman man, almost everything you mentioned is not covered by the armor on a typical jacket, with the exception of the spine, but most spine injuries are the result of twisting and compression instead of direct hits to the spine, so that's also to be expected even though most jackets have back protection. In order for a typical road jacket to be comfortable and usable enough to actually wear on a regular day it only tries to cover the most common areas to suffer. There are different, more specialized clothes to wear on the track that provide much more protection, but most people wouldn't want to wear them every day. 50% protection on your body is worth 100 times 100% protection left in your house.
Im really glad you made this video and posted a comment on the video in question. It seems pretty obvious to me that removing protection is removing protection, but it concerns me that people could be influenced to think it’s useless.
I get the point he’s making about needing to improve the standards that these manufacturers are held at. And someone who’s been in a few high and low speed motorcycle crashes (mostly on track), gear saved my body from everything except some fractured fingers and wrist. As far as I’m concerned gear saves your soft skin and limits movement of things that aren’t supposed to move a lot.
Took out a barbed wire and wooden fence with my back a few years back. Awfully glad of the back armour when the paramedics were pulling the barbed wire out of me. Got a few pin pricks rather than completely ripped apart.
Thanks for this video, I nearly stopped watching Fortnine’s vid. I “fell” off my ZRX 1100 at slow speed due to gravel; I landed directly on my elbow! The protection afforded me on my old and worn 10+ year old Dianese jacket protected my elbow … no injury! Just over a year ago I fell off of my bicycle and landed directly on my hip! Obviously no armour and a lower speed. I broke my hip … enough said!
I've had many motorbike accidents (up to 20), including the one where my motorbike landed on my ankle, and I always walk away without an injury (except for some pain),so no, I will NEVER EVER ride without body armour! John, thank you so much for making a contra-video in reaction to F9's. Experienced bikers know what it means to crash, but new bikers have to know the truth.
@@bennettsbikesocialI would say that Laury is just a bad rider 🙄 Ryan was completely right in his superb video calling out the motorcycle clothing monopoly...most motorcycle body armour is basically useless. Chuck it in the bin! 😂
As my instructor used to say - run along at full pace, or 30 mph of you can, then jump on you knees... then you'll see the need for proper bike kit with pads! Much as I do enjoy F9's content, there's no way in hell I'll be taking my pads out; they aren't obstructive, often barely noticeable, and whatever protection they give I will happily take!
I am confused, wasnt F9s video april fools? If you read the research in his video, you see he is using data out of context? I thought that was the joke?
@@fightkostka I get your point. Maybe that was the case. But if he was trying to make some April Fools' Day joke that one was a bad joke because it has the power of misguiding people leading them to a bad and dangerous decision. I mean, as an influencer he has to have a responsible conduct.
@fightkostka Huh, that's an interesting take. F9 is a witty guy so I suppose that could have been the videos plot. But I'll say I enjoy F9 videos and get most of the comedy and sarcasm in them, at least I think I do lol. But I certianly missed it in the armor vid if it was there.
My instructor while doing my cbt in the distant eons of time showed the effects of the face on the side of a desk with a half face helmet, simulating a curb compared to wearing a full face helmet instead. Touché what that instructor said, I will always remember!
Thanks for this. I watched the RyanF9 video and couldn’t see any sense in his ‘personal’ action at all. At the age of 77 I need all the injury-protection help I can get, and following Ryan is something I’ll leave to others. Thanks for the swift reaction to that video. Les
@@chronometer9931 jfk he absolutely advocated removing CE1/2 pads because according to him those CE levels aren't good enough and thus is near useless - and since every armor pad on the market now is pretty much just CE1/2 pads that's really no different than saying don't use them, which is removing them.
So are you satisfied that the armour you're wearing is enough protection for you, especially at age 77? a large new analysis of mortality among people aged 50 and older in Denmark finds an increase in mortality risk of up to 25 percent with other types of fractures as well. Even with hip fractures, the "excess" risk of death remains slightly elevated for at least 10 years"
@@bcinspectorman I would try to get the best protection I can for all circumstances. I’m aware that ‘old people’ often die from hip fractures or their after-effects. Heard of several who fell out of bed and died because of the hip-fracture trauma. But while I would like 100% survivability guarantees I’m not aware of any, anywhere, on anything. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous. The main thing, after putting (or keeping) protection in my motorcycle clothing, boots, gloves, helmet, is making sure I drive/ride in the safest way possible, looking out for my own activity and that of the drivers/riders around me. If that is successful then I’ll never need to test my in-clothing protection. That stuff is only useful as a last resort! Ride safe!! Les
I really think F9 dropped the ball on that video. Though it raises some good questions and draws attention to some important things that the industry should be aware of and focus on, the key message of the video was that armor was useless and should be removed for added comfort and that's what stuck with people, which, for a channel as influential as F9 is inexcusable. I've heard of kids who broke their elbows and needed platinum inserts because they had a tip-over while doing a u turn on a bicycle for gods sake. Just because the force reduction level isn't enough to prevent a fracture with an impact of 50kN doesn't mean it won't prevent a fracture at all. Go ahead and smash your elbow against the doorsill on your way out with and without the motorcycle jacket, and decide for yourself whether Ryan's point is full of rubbish or not.
I'm glad I watched this video. I'm getting back on two wheels after riding dirt bikes as a kid, I never wore gear apart from a helmet, but sand and dirt are different to fall on. When I watched F9's video, it actually convinced me that armour was useless. Close one. I will try harder to make "informed, not influenced" decisions in the future. Well put.
You are the reason our video exists - thanks so much for commenting. Cheers, John If you want some more info on just some of thew work we've been doing around safety standards for many years, have a watch of this: ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html
@@IIARROWS We've been pushing for optional higher safety levels for a long time (and no, it doesn't affect insurance)... After some brands opposed optional higher safety standards, we called them out on it. We launched the High Performance Awards to give those that want to give riders choice a chance to prove higher protection. We called out misinformation on riding jeans... there's a lot more too if you want to look into it. ua-cam.com/video/n22vtWc8QRw/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-safety-ce-standards www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
@@IIARROWS Even the studies the Ryan has cited said that the all CE certified protectors were definitely helpful and one said they did much better than non-certified ones, so the standard is not as low as you and Ryan make it to seem. Ryan claimed that the IP's benefits are negligible and showed it as a reason for him to stop using them. Please stop making up excuses for Ryan's misguiding video.
This is hilarious. Had you actually watched the Fortnine video, you would know that he DIDN'T say that motorcycle armor was useless. You have indeed been influenced - by the misinformation presented in this video.
@IIARROWS spot on. I'm beginning to wonder whether the author of this video - and those parroting his false claim that Fortnine declared motorcycle armor to be useless - even watched said video.
Having ridden wearing kit with no armour (late 70s leathers) and having come off I know the amount of bruising, sprains grazes and cuts I got were copious and I had several days of work just to recover. When I compare a similar get off I had wearing modern protective gear I walked away with a few bruises. Some protection is better than no protection. I wont be removing any of mine.
Reason #132 to wear armored clothing while riding: Take a rock (or even a large insect) traveling at speed to the knee cap on the highway, with and without soft armor, and truth you will find 😁
Or a large stone to the knuckle protector on my glove! Saw it coming off the back wheel of a truck going the other way. Knocked my left hand off the grip! No injury though.
I like Ryan F9 but what he said isn't going to stop me wearing armour. More worrying; is that the industry only feels the need to meet the minimum requirement, according to him. If there is fault here, it's that the CE1/CE2 standard is too low. All imho...
The thing is, there are plenty of brands that are pushing to exceed the minimum standards, but there are also plenty who want to add confusion and try to remove standards. That's why we set up the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which help to highlight kit that goes beyond EN17092. And this will be evolving over time... www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
@@Illuminum2392 No they aren't entirely about fractures, nor is it proven that they don't help with fractures (they most likely do and a big enough study could prove it). And, in fact, pads are the best soft tissue protection you will ever be wearing. All this is also in the first two minutes of this very video, explained from someone who actually does the studies.
@@ezsteel78 The evidence indicates that armour's additional abrasion resistance helps compensate for our clothing’s often inadequate abrasion resistance. However, armour is neither advertised nor tested for abrasion resistance. Sadly, scientific studies show that the CE standard is too low to protect us from fractures.
@@The-Splat Also, MotoCAP studies have noted that the most common failure of the garment material during testing is burst failure often from the material folding or pulling. The abrasion pads provide a more uniform, more rigid backing material to hold the abrasion material (leather, textile, etc.) flat and in place, allowing the material to abrade more evenly and last longer during a slide.
Vdeos and discussions like these of Rf9 and BBs really have a significant benefit. They provoke argument and raise consciousness. It is is also a message to manufacturers that apart from awesome design riders need more protection. The points that relate to materials of gear and position and size as well as density stated here really have educational purposes. I know that my boots saved my ankle when bike landed on top of me an i ve seen most expensive moto shoes in ERs on feet of bikers that looked like spring flower with every stitch disintegrated. The point of light armour being fashionable but worn therefore instead of not being worn is a big step to stubborn non believers. However it s their choice. I personally use hockey knee guards and remove armour from my BMW pants. They just misfit and move. But they cost a lot. This discussion and effort put into making these videos could be a great message to all of us but also to manufacturers that we are not going to put up with all they offer and that we are aware.
Did the same since I started riding. I never trusted soft armor, for me it's enduro hard armor and knee high boots or might as well use street clothes.
Just returned to riding after 25 years, and currently wearing the made to measure Manx leathers jacket and trousers I bought in 1985. Many obvious comments that both still fit ( I’m 6ft4in & 11st) but this video has got me seriously considering buying modern gear. Thank you.
Liz's comment reflects my own comment on F9's video: That people die from lacerations and blood loss, and very rarely from fractures alone (shock could definitely still come into play) and that if armour prevents/lessens lacerations, it's well worth it.
@@chronometer9931 Exactly, I'm growing tired of people missing the point of F9's video. He states his preference, he doesn't recommend that people copy him by removing the armour and he raises a big point about the current standards being too low. He even gave a suggestion of some armour that far exceeds CE level 2 for those that were interested.
@@chronometer9931 the problem is he clickbaited the video with that massive "USELESS" in the thumbnail picture. Useless and not good enough are two VERY different concepts.
People die from trauma which includes internal injuries not just fractures. "Motorcycle jackets were not protective for systemic injuries". Mortality risk from fractures for older riders: Study from Denmark: "a large new analysis of mortality among people aged 50 and older in Denmark finds an increase in mortality risk of up to 25 percent with other types of fractures (other than hip fractures) as well. Even with hip fractures, the "excess" risk of death remains slightly elevated for at least 10 years."
@@chronometer9931 His every argument about armor was wrong, because all the studies' quotes were taken out of context. And the studies claim the opposite of what Ryan was saying. To encourage improving the armor you should first point out the problems with it and Ryan didn't do that in his video!
@@bcinspectormantrue, if you are wearing a back protector and a car T-bones you hitting your leg, armour won't help your leg much... but I think people can work on the edge cases themselves and think about what level of protection they want/need/afford.
In the Fortnine video they are discussing, Ryan says he doesn't use armor but does use airbags. In my personal view, I feel like you should use both, not just one. They protect different areas against different damage. Any spill on a bike can cause damage regardless of safety equipment, but more protective gear gives a higher chance of minimal damage.
@@CaptainAstrum totally agree! You can swap the back protector for an airbag, but keep the knee, elbow and hip protectors just in case. They might not be preventing a fatal injury, but they can prevent tons of pain
Can’t love this video enough. Thank you SO MUCH for reaching out to those authors and doing the actual legwork on this. Everyone who sees the Fortnine video needs to watch this. Just saying.
I think the point I got from F9 was that standards could be improved. Air vest are probably a good investent. But Im going to wear my armour because every little helps...
the issue is that the video, to be more polarizing and attractive perhaps - is 99% "hahah remove your pads" and 1% "not really, they should be improved. But I'm not wearing them! BUY THIS AIRBAG VEST!"
@@alrightdave6135 tbf Ryan has said in several videos now how he uses an airbag quite a lot. He disses the electronic activation as it was conceived for track use (but companies look at hundreds of thousands of hours of road use in their ongoing R&D and send updates to electronic units) and hence he has bought and proudly uses a tether actuate HeLite.
All I know for sure is that had armour been available in 1970 I WOULDN'T have the soft tissue shoulder, elbow and hip problems that have dogged me for years. I always wear armour as at my age it is extremely hard to recover from injuries !!!!
I agree, I am a massive fan of Ryan and a fan of personal freedom to make choices, but you have to be extremely stupid not to wear armour. To see fellow motorcyclists in tee shirt and shorts make me feel sick inside at the skin left in the road. I have friends who are nurses in my local A&E department who tell me that the body goes into shock with skin loss and can be the cause of death. Wear good motorcycle clothing and armour! You know it makes sense.
Glad you made this video 👍 I came off my bike a while back and my hip, elbow and shoulder armour 100% saved me from further injury. Only a fool would ride without armour in my opinion. Keep up the good work 👍
As a motorcycle rider in India, I feel naked without Armour and padding in my jacket. I wear them regardless of the extremely uncomfortable weather we have. But RyanF9 has a point, the lobbying to make the min specs well below an acceptable value ahould be addressed.
I’m really pleased you have brought up Ryan F 9’s latest video on body armour. I think ANY extra armour is critical. I have always upgraded the back protector in my jackets. I survived a head on with a car that turned illegally infront of me, because of the boots, gloves, Helmet and back protector I was wearing. It literally saved my life. I have now invested in an airbag vest. I cannot recommend breaking 8 ribs and having internal injuries. These would have been prevented if I’d had the vest on. No question. Thank you for posting this on your video. It’s critical to make people aware.
Decent video. One of the reasons why Fortnine's videos have such wide reach is because he provides a lot of good information and delivers it in a way the viewer is engaged throughout. I believe you have a lot of good information to share, but I could not sit through this entire video myself.
Ryan's title was click bait. He very clearly stated throughout the video and during the summary at the end, that pads just don't effectively prevent FRACTURES. He agreed they will reduce minor flesh wounds and simply decided not to wear them. What he wants ideally is fracture protection. Hence why he wears a sub 4 back protector on the race track.
@@bennettsbikesocial This is a straw man. No one ever argued what the most common type of injury is in any particular situation. We're just talking about the force required to cause a fracture and the type of pad that will prevent it (sub 4). If you want to respond to Ryan in your video, great, do whatever you want. It's just disingenuous to pretend he said things he didn't say.
A conclusion based on a flawed understanding of a study that does in fact, not, say that pads don't prevent fractures. Merely that with their limited sample size, that is what the evidence points towards. He also stated in the end of the video that based on this flawed understanding, he no longer wears pads in his jacket (and I believe he doesn't wear pads in his pants either). So no, the title was not clickbait at all, the video is actively giving the advice of "don't bother with pads as they are ineffective, especially against fractures", which is terrible advice that a lot of his followers will blindly follow or otherwise use as justification for their own poor judgement.
Unfortunately the pads don’t include sensors so it can’t be shown in real accidents that a fracture would have occurred without the armour. Therefore when fractures do occur there is nothing to compare it to, so saying armour doesn’t stop fractures because people still get fractures is a bit of a straw man.
I believe Ryan is partially right - current armour I believe is leading rider's into a false sense of security, and is too expensive for what it is (it wouldn't protect you from a Rugby player's tackle let alone an accident) It should be to a much higher standard as a minimum
Not all armour is expensive, and many brands are putting better and better protectors in. But some in the industry would like consumers to ignore standards, and instead trust in marketing hype (and influencer messaging).
If you can't spend $100 to save all kinds of your joints, bones, etc, then you are the problem. A rugby tackle is NOT an acute, high velocity, high density impact. It is wide range, low velocity, low density impact. You're saying that a padded football helmet is as good as no helmet. Not the case at all
Can't remember the last time I was rugby tackled whilst riding! Sarcasm aside, you're comparing apples and oranges. I've been off on public roads (hit diesel approaching a roundabout) and came off around 40mph whilst wearing a fully armoured set of leather. Both hip and elbow protectors had huge gouges out of them and led to me walking away shaken and bruised but otherwise uninjured. I will always wear the best protection I can afford. To do otherwise just seems idiocy
Even though generally speaking I’m a Fortnine fan, I had already decided after watching said video that my armour would remain in. Abrasion and contusion protection is sufficient reason to leave it in seeing that it is the most common injury anyway.
I appreciate why you has done this video. I believe Ryan point was to create a push from consumer for a better protection maybe a C3 will be something people will want so companies might invest in producing it.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it? Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum. Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful. There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
@@bennettsbikesocial I do agree with you, there is better ways to do it, because many people will follow without thinking twice and fall off the cliff because the previous Lemming did it, more if that Lemming has such a background as F9 do. I did not understand his message as "remove you pad because they are useless", He said they have use when you slide what I got from his video is this pad will not protect you from fracturing impacts and as you said in the video it will protect you from certain fractures but not all. So, for me F9's video make me if anything being more careful knowing the limitation of my C2 pads. But again, I do understand why you did your video there is not many thinkers but lots of followers. and Influencers should be careful of the consequences of their advice/influence.
Thank you for doing this. I watch Ryan at FortNine and enjoy his content. But I do NOT take his words as gospel and I do not expect that he expects that. However since most young social media consumers 'tend to' believe him at face value, it concerned me. I've raced my entire life, high-sided at 140 MPH at the racetrack, and got airlifted to the trauma center. Not a broken bone or any road rash in my custom-made team leathers. Knocked out my front tooth, but I'm too handsome anyway. ;-). I write for Web Bike World and have evaluated the most currently available air vests, Alpinestars 3 and 5, Helite Turtle 2, eTurte, HMOOV, Mo'Cycle jeans, and DAir. I"'m in the process of evaluating KLIM, Rev'It, and HELD. Will do an all-air vest comparison after I'm done. I'd never choose to remove armor from my riding gear. I do choose to remove the "U" from armor, color, and other words you Brits insist on inserting them into. LOL I never ride without my Helite air vest. On the track there is kitty litter, run off zones, corner workers with flags and first aid kits, two EMTs on standby, and no curbs or cars texting. Not so on the roads here in the USA.
That is my concern with F9 videos as well. I like his videos and been watching them for almost 8-9 years now but he does put out some controversial stuff like the body positioning video and has young fans who take his words very seriously.
Thanks for posting this! Its a very useful follow up on whether armour is worth wearing. Would be very easy for someone to watch the fortnine video and come away with the idea that armour is useless.
After T boning a car at 60mph I received many serious injuries, The Surgeon that dealt with me said that without a quality helmet and good quality back armour (including knee and shoulder etc) saved my life and my many fractures would have been disabling breaks. 7 Months on, I am now pretty much fully recovered. Armour rocks👍🏻
Good guest, and good conversation! The thing I appreciate about Fortnine's videos is they'll show their work or otherwise provide their reasoning. That way the viewer's able to judge whether they agree with the conclusions depending on whether they trust the facts presented. Personally, I've only ever spilled at low speeds, and even skateboarders wear pads to keep from breaking bones. So if armor only keeps me from breaking an elbow after slipping on mud in the neighborhood, well that's a win to me.
My knees thanked me when i went down the second time WITH pads and didn't need surgery again... The first time i scraped of a lot of skin, a third of my right kneecap and some big fleshy bits below. I wore my riding jeans and got the idea that it looked better without the pads. 10mm rubber padding is better than 2mm fabric between me and the ground. I'm extremely convinced about that!
Great video. It's the response that was needed to that nonsense. Common sense says experiencing a lesser force is preferable to a greater force. What's more, cuts, bruises, lacerations hurt like hell and will stop the fun just as quickly as a fracture. KEEP YOUR ARMOUR IN, FOLKS!
Having had an accident in November 23 in which I sustained a relatively serious fracture I have to say the body armour prevented further injury. As this affected the lower arm the medical team were amazed that mu elbow was untouched which was thanks to the armour in my Alpine Stars Bogata touring jacket. I had no other injuries thanks to my kit. The accident involved going head over heels over the bars at approximately 50 mph. Removing armour is a seriously short sighted act in my view.
Thank you for highlighting the nuance in the conversation. While Social Media is where nuance goes to die, there is always a spectrum to everything in life. As you say, "what you wear is and should always be your choice" but proper education about those choices is crucial. Yes, a pad on your knee may not prevent a tib-fib fracture, but a helmet won't stop my neck from snapping. I'll still wear one. That having been said, if I wanted the highest level of protection while motorcycling, I would add more wheels, a metal cage, sensors, and airbags... and stop riding a motorcycle. Everyone has to draw their own line.
I will also note in the conversation you discuss the benefits of airbags. I've been saying for years that F9's video comparing airbag designs is critically flawed. Ryan notes at 8:30 in his video that a 40ms crash detection of an electronic airbag is slower than the 36ms it takes to cover the 0.5m tether at 50 kph. However, he's comparing *deployment* to *detection*. My Astars TechAir5 deploys (fully) in under 40 ms. Helite states on their website that inflation of a Helite Turtle (with slower CO2 than Ar) takes about 100ms. This is never mentioned in the video. So, the 36ms tether begins the 100ms inflation for a total of 136ms at best. If I am rear-ended by a car traveling 30 mph, guess how long I have before I hit the windshield of that car? About 100ms. TechAir is fully inflated. Helite is partially inflated. Anyone who has slept on a partially-inflated air mattress knows how much good that does. I'll stick with the argon.
Excellent video and highly valuable explanation of what the body armour will and won't do. Think F9 did get it wrong with that recent video as it was easy to come away from watching it thinking that current armour isn't worth having.
I was in a pretty nasty low speed accident a few years where I was hit side on by a minivan with a distracted driver who failed to stop at a stop sign and even after colliding with me. This resulted in my leg being crushed under my bike and ground into the pavement as the minivan dragged my bike with it. I was wearing an armored jacket and kevlar lined armored jeans (which slightly annoyed the ER staff trying to cut them off). This gear did absolutely nothing to prevent the fractures in this accident but that not at all what it is designed for. I still ride and still wear and armored jacket and jeans when I do because I have also slid my bike on several occasions when caught in unexpected bad weather or loose sand or debris on the road and in those instances, even at freeway speed once, I was able to stand up and dust myself of and in most cases gather my bike and ride away. I know if I were not wearing quality armor when those accidents happened I would be painted across the pavements and much less likely to be able to laugh off a stupid mistake. Oh and that accident with the minivan, Beside my leg being completely mangled, I had barely a scratch on my because the gear did what it was designed to do and stopped the road from tearing into me.
I am still here, healthy and still riding at 77 years of age after a couple of serious motorcycle accidents if I did not have my full face helmet and armored gear on at the time of the accidents. In one of the accidents, I impacted the side of a large SUV at 45 mph that turned left in front of me. I had no serious injuries, but the bike was totaled and had a huge dent in the steel tank where my knee had crushed it. If I had not been wearing the knee armor, I have no doubt that my knee cap would have been shattered, leaving me with lifelong debilitating injuries. I did suffer a small fracture in my vertebrae, as my back armor was high density foam, and NOT CE armor. I had no other abrasions or impact injuries. I will not ride without CE armor! Thanks so much for reinforcing what I already knew about the value of all protective gear. I also would not be here today without my full face helmet as I was also knocked unconscious in the same accident while wearing one.
Thanks for making this. I haven't watched Fortnine's video yet but I did see the title pop up on the subscriptions and doubted it. I'll carry on wearing the protection I have.
To submise the video... He says the minimum standards are too low, and that he wears an airbag when riding (airbag goes way beyond the standards and provides greater protection over all). He personally doesn't use the pads in his gear and does NOT recommend for anyone else to do what he does. He says right in the beginning that the title was an April Fools joke (more so towards the gear manufacturers, than anything else). Ryan's video has had the effect it was meant to... get people talking and making people aware of the bad minimum standards.
This is a great, good faith interpretation of F9's video and I'm glad to see alternative opinions without any fake drama. Well done getting this together so quickly
Great video! And thank you for including Paul Varnsverry's commentary; he's the person to listen to and not some UA-cam entertainer who is unapologetic about using clickbait to mislead motorcycling consumers on motorcycling PPE. By the way, FortNine deleted my comment in which I addressed Ryan F9's misleading content in the video. It was my same comment that you replied to; my comment had garnered over 1,000 likes in the span of a couple of hours and was getting a lot of traction with motorcyclists. I've published the comment again; let's see if they remove it once more. Again, great video!
Just FYI, it's likely that Ryan didn't delete the comment, most likely UA-cam did because some word about injury or harm triggered UA-cams nebulous analysis systems. I find that comments of mine disappear frequently on just about any given video.
Thanks for bringing Mr Varnsverry in and clarify a misleading information in Ryan's latest video. I don't know why he had the fallacious thought of filming this video without asking and debating with the people who conducted the sourced studies but then proceeded to dismantle decades of road safety prevention mindlessly. This is definitely something that we'll hear about for years, I'm afraid. Once again thank you for holding this very insightful discussion with Mr Varnsverry, and let's hope garments manufacturers will work upon improving body armour.
Thanks for being the voice of reason for motorcycle riders once again. Very happy to have found your channel already a while back. I like F9 for entertainment and sometimes scientific explenations. This time they didn´t meet my view, next time it might be different.
I am someone who is considering getting into motorcycles, but because of my background i cant imagine not wearing armor. I skate roller derby and train, and I can tell you that a fall to your unpadded knee to a hard surface can absolutely fracture youe kneecap or blow ligaments. Even if you do have an injury, small amounts of padding can really help mitigate the severity. Especially for newer skaters i always *always* recommend getting better protection than you think you need. Better to spend an extra $100 and get pads suited to the sport, you only have one set of knees.
Absolutely this! F9’s video hung everything on fracture and not on any other (more likely) injury. His title was misleading hyperbole and the message wildly misleading. Good job!
I completely agree with you, there are so many other more common injuries to focus on. But there isn't anything wrong with focusing on fractures. The real issue is he doesn't accurately present the whole picture. He correctly says ce2 reduces ~50kN to 9kN, and both are above 4.5Kn fracture limit so its bad. But ignores the fact there's an 80% reduction. Do the reverse calculation: if your goal is to stay
I think not focusing on things like abrasion is fair because non-armor-insert items (such as proper jackets and pants) already can provide adequate protection against those things. So impact resistance, being the main thing that those clothing items can't provide, is a reasonable main focus for a discussion about armor inserts.
Ryan knew exactly what his video was for - nothing to do with armour, it was to cause controversy and create a viral response to get F9 views. He's done a great job.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it? Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum. Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful. There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
Thank you for this. I, like the multitude, devour Fortnines productions. That last sparkly extrusion had me worried a bit and questioning my, and more importantly my pillion of 36 years belief in the expensive clobber we wear.
There's also a psycholoogical anfle on this. Its long been said, people riding naked also ride slow - the corollary is true: if you feel safer than you actually are you'll take risks that will add data to crash stats.
Yes its called compensating behavior theory , when seat belts were made mandatory it increased the incidence of accidents , which then had a knock on effect of the vulnerability of motorcyclists , cyclists and pedestrians etc.
I believe that the same is true on the ski slopes. Before sports (ski) helmets became popular and in many places mandatory, beginner and intermediate skiers and boarders worked on improving their skills to stay safe and have fun but now it seems to me that those beginner and intermediate enthusiasts are taking more chances falsely believing that they are protected from serious injury. That's a dangerous way of thinking no matter what the sport or activity. Ride safe!
Ryan at F9 is highly entertaining if not criticaly accurate. I too am somewhat dismayed he would imply "removing" protection as an option. But, as one previous commmenter indicated, Ryan did say this was an April 1 story. Maybe to just get us all to think more about asking manufactures to improve the protection. This Bennett's Bike Social article is a perfect anectdote and brings me back to reality. I loved his details and discussions with an expert. ATGATT for me. And, I hope there's more options for me to choose from in the in near future, thanks in part to Ryan @ F9 and Bennett for calling it out.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it? Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum. Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful. There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
Thank you for diving deeper into this than Fortnine did, I think their channel focus is to make entertaining content instead of informative. I much prefer your channel, it may not be as flashy but its real information that is useful!
Thanks for this video. As someone who has experienced soft tissue damage during a relatively slow-speed crash while riding as a pillion, I couldn't wrap my head around Fortnine's video. Even an L1 pad is better than not having anything, though I believe engineers should strive to design something better than L2-level stuff, not like what Knox is doing with their Microlock Compact by doing the bare minimum for a level 2 certification (though I have them and like them).
Ultimately Ryans point was that the armor does provide some benefit but he has been taking it out so he enjoys riding casually around town more. And nothing in this video really refutes that. He also said in his video that he wears a large back protector and padded leathers on the track. My armor will stay in my jacket because its comfortbale enough for me but I'll feel less bad the next time I wear just jeans on bottom. I think theres a lot of hype around armor but its not doing as much as people might think. Full disclosure I have crashed and hit my face, shoulder, and knee on the ground. No knee padding meant I had a little scrape on my knee but it wasnt a big deal. Full face helmet and leather jacket meant my other impact zones were fine.
I'm amazed how quickly you got this out! And I'm so pleased you did. I was left with a big question mark when I watched the F9 video, and this basically backs up my gut feeling. F9 have had a string of dodgy pseudo-science vids recently. I hope they aren't losing the plot.
I took a big tumble in 2018 and due to a bang on the head I can’t remember the actual crash. I broke a lot of bones, my T6 vertebrae, 6 ribs, collarbone and hand. I was wearing top of the line gear with armour and a back protector. I got NO skin injuries which made my recovery easier. I now wear an airbag which I believe would have saved some of my torso injuries. Road rash is painful and can easily get infected so even if amour only saves those injuries it’s well worth the effort. I’m keeping mine.
Ryan didn't say you had to give up your "airbag", in fact, he mentioned the "airbag" armour as one piece that will prevent fractures and potentially lethal internal injuries. But the cost will prevent most from being able to purchase that gear.
My friend was in a motorcycle accident. He only wore a leather jacket, but it saved his skin (literally). After seeing how much damage the now tattered jacket absorbed, he decided to wear armour every time.
Understand the issue with the "Useless" title but I've got to admit that I would never have known how poor my armour actually is without seeing Ryan's video. I've already got an airbag vest but will likely upgrade to a newer / better version. Ryan clearly has editorial freedom given that his employer (F9) sells (amongst other things) bike gear / armour etc. I'm not taking my armour out but appreciate Ryan starting the discussion.
We've been pushing for optional higher safety levels for a long time (and no, it doesn't affect insurance)... After some brands opposed optional higher safety standards, we called them out on it. We launched the High Performance Awards to give those that want to give riders choice a chance to prove higher protection. We called out misinformation on riding jeans... there's a lot more too if you want to look into it. ua-cam.com/video/n22vtWc8QRw/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-safety-ce-standards www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
It always amazes me how many people still ride with very little protective gear. I have seen a pillion fall off at highway speed wearing only a helmet and flimsy summer clothes. The worst thing I remember was her bloodied hands where she must have braced herself before hitting the road. Even some basic gear would have saved her a lot of pain. Protect yourself.
It seems the discussion often jumps straight from abrasions to fractures, but there are plenty of other impact related injuries that are not fractures. e.g. torn ligaments and muscles, dislocations, and even just large haematomas. It also often seems to be similar to the classic old discussion of the introduction of helmets to the military, where suddenly "studies" showed increased head injuries, and ignored the fact that more soldiers lived long enough to have injuries.
My issue with this is his focus on fractures. I mean, riding in dirt, I've crashed hard onto rocks lots of times. I've slammed hard into rocks from standing on a tall adventure bike. Ive hit those rocks on my knee, on my elbows, on my shoulders. Wearing armour, ive gotten up and continued to ride absolutely unhurt. Ive also done those things without armour, and been hurt pretty bad - ride endingly bad. Armour wont protect you from hitting a car at 80mph. But it WILL lessen and spread the impact. This can make a huge difference in a lower speed impact. Also, slide protection. If I do go down at high speed and slide, the armour is extra material to slide on. Even if it never changes whether i break a bone or not, armour is still worth it for me.
@@bcinspectorman ce2 armour (shoulder, elbow, back, knee, and hip) in the Revit Sand 3 gear. Big, standard CE2 pads. This isn't controversial. I'm a late 40's guy riding a T7 in places requiring more skill or a smaller bike than I have. It's just regular CE2 armour, not special stuff, but it's big - nearly full coverage from shoulder through wrist. 300lb guy, on a tall bike, slammed into rocks over and over, with no injuries to speak of. Yeah, speeds aren't high - we're not talking about high speed collisions with cars here, as I was pretty clear about - but low speed fuckups that drive you from standing on the bike very rapidly into rocks while going up and down rocky hills off road. Very much still the sorts of impacts that definitely end rides unarmored. I mean, I will (as a 300lb 6'4" guy) without hesitation drop to my knees(just straight up fall down onto them) on pavement with the ce2 kneeguards. I would NEVER do that just in a pair of jeans, I wouldn't walk again for days.
Hello guys. Lovely video. My only issue is that you guys did confirm most of Ryan’s observations regarding the faults in riding armour. And though he did say to remove these things I suspect he was expecting these response videos, effectively making people discuss the issue. Finally he did not stop using armour he just finds the best ones he can, replacing the ones that aren’t up to his standard. My wife’s armour is level one and so soft that I doubt it’ll make any difference… Ride safe
I just low sided last week at around 40mph and the only part that got hurt was my knee(road rash) and my lower back. The reason for my knee, not wearing riding pants and for my back, not having a the pack pad in my new jacket. However the big take away was I got up and rode back home. I didn’t take a survey which makes me wonder how many people crash and get saved by armor but never let anyone online know. Now those are the statistics I would like to know.
All I know is that when doing the extended TAT I fell off 8 times in 7,350 miles, admittedly all off-road but some of those falls where on seriously nasty sharp rocks etc and I did not even get a single bruise. Now off-road is different to on-road and off-road armour is different too, but personally, even on-road I would rather take the chance that soft armour will considerably reduce injury and for the very little inconvenience it causes, if any, and always wear it.
Here's one to mumble about...as motorcycle gear protection is supposedly improving the number of deaths keep rising. In Canada in 2020 they had the highest number of motorcycle related deaths in 20 years of keeping records! In 2021 in the US they registered the highest number of deaths since 1957! Armour does not protect against excessive speeding nor riding while under the influence of alcohol. Excessive speeding was the cause of 34% of deaths and 27% involved alcohol!
The total number may be up, but how about the actual rate, i.e "X per 1,000 riders" or something like that? Not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious
Good video. I think it’s comes down to common sense - as a rider, give yourself a fighting chance if the worst happens. I opt for base layer Kevlar under layers with armoured hoody and riding jeans on top. A good fitting helmet, and gloves and boots that afford you best feel of the controls. We are all our own health and safety officers! Enjoy the ride 👍
I have a set of jeans that the knee armour never stayed in the right place. I took it out and changed to the knox separate kneepads that do. It couldn't do anything as it was always in the wrong place. The ones in the the rst pro suit I was wearing at Donington, did its job when visiting the coppice gravel trap upside down. :) Thanks for what you do John.
You quote the conclusion of Liz de Rome's study, which is very clear, and should be enough to convince everyone to wear protection, if possible level 2, since it's no thicker or more uncomfortable than level 1. There's another study from Rome that's just as interesting: "Effectiveness of motorbike protective clothing: riders' health outcomes in the six months following a crash". The conclusion is also unequivocal: "We found strong associations between the use of protective clothing and the attenuation of the consequences of the injury in terms of health and well-being after the accident. Given this evidence, it seems likely that the use of protective clothing will bring significant benefits to riders in the event of an accident". Even without carrying out a study, simple logic suggests that protection, however imperfect, is better than no protection... And no one whose word is listened to should say "I'm taking off my protective gear because it's not doing any good"...
As I said on F9s video, I've fallen off horses and a bike (and the roof of a car onto concrete because I was young and dumb enough to car surf), the impacts were very different (land and pretty much stop vs slide). So yeah, will keep wearing armour. At least we're having this discussion about armour and where the standards are/should be. Thanks for another very informative video 👍
The point of the video from F9 was to trigger a reaction and it worked. We are all talking about it now. Wouldn't be nice if we could have level 3 or 4 available in our gear? Thanks for bringing more data to the conversation
Whatever gear I buy I upgrade the pads to more technical protection which is also much less obtrusive. I have a big bag full of those plastic rubber pads which seem useful for something but just take up space in the cupboard.
My kids and I always yell "Meat Crayon!" when we see riders who aren't wearing protective gear. I ride and I've crashed. I had proper gear and boots and was told by the surgeons that fixed my compound fractured ankle that if I hadn't had the boots on I would have lost my left foot (impact with a guard rail). I had a good pair of gloves on and still lost the ends of my left pinky and ring fingers but I imagine that would have been worse too without the gloves. Dress for the slide, not the ride.
I'm riding since 1997 and did sports, that needed thick protectos for many, many years. I support Ryan's view 100%. He never said, that protection is useless, but that the minimal protection manufactures have to use, is just bad. How many rider have 100% fitting suits, with correct size protectors sitting at the correct position? Esp on synthetic gear, that has a bit looser fit, the protectors wander all over the place and will not help you at all. That is why I always wear either a protector vest under my gear, or at least a back protector vest. These things don't move and can be modified to fit your body perfectly, while still having better mobility, because your suit just fits better. Also, not matter if you want to wear your leather, or synth suit, the vest always protects you the same. When it comes to protection gear, there is no one size fits all, but manufacturers use the same ellbow protector from jacked size xs, to xxxl. That can't make sense. While at the topic, please wear your riding shoes. They are SOO much more important, than most rider think!
People realize that Ryan was joking about not wearing armor right? It was April Fools. He was however calling out the armor companies and the types being promoted and showing that they are substandard.
Thanks for making this video. Peer review system doing us all a favor. Maybe RF9 wasn't telling the complete truth, but he did start this discussion. Resulting in more info for us riders
The discussion's been ongoing for a long time, but drawing attention to it shouldn't be at the expense of some people potentially taking their armour out!
It wasn't that impact resistant armor is useless it was that the bare minimum requirements for the armor is shit and will do very little to protect you. Motorcycle armor needs higher standards overall.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it? Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum. Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful. There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
Thanks for bringing some well needed clarification on this subject, its clear that even flawed protectors are better that no protectors, lets see what comming standards will bring in improvements. The development of semi-soft protection material and other advancements in protection design might allow higher protection with reasonable comfort.
I think, that my 32 years of road riding has taught me that it's not the big spills...the collisions...that are the most likely accident to dress for, it's the low speed ones. Every time I've come off the bike( and only once in the last 10 years ), Abrasions and a few bruises have been the lot of it. Never has my helmet touched the road in an accident. Helmet, armoured jacket, gloves and boots have been my minimum PPE requirement for a long time now. Doesn't protect my legs...but, you roll the dice.
I don't think F9 said anything about being useless but that against fractures there was no protection at all. And the most important point of his video is that the standars for these protections is really low so we won't see any improvements unless something is done against this companies/laws.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it? Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum. Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful. There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
I slid out turning left at a stop light(maybe 15 mph). Slid in the ground for maybe 5-10 feet. Was fully geared up in a Revit trench jacket, Rst ambush textile pants, and Cortech scratch v3 gloves. Besides some slight knee pain that subsides after a couple hours no injuries at all. With out gear certainly would have at least a bone bruise or worse. No reason to skip gear because it could be better.
Comfort is vitally important, and kit has to be affordable. But anyone buying gear can judge that for themselves - what they can't do is assess how well it compares to other gear for abrasion resistance, seam strength, tear strength, impact protection etc.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it?
Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum.
Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful.
There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
John Milbank
Just pasting in a great comment that was previously pinned from @jakeguymer-davies6427
"I'm a paramedic, I work in London and it seems the only bikers we need to treat are those not wearing proper gear- boots make a massive difference and pads are a must, at least for slower crashes. Yes you're dead after a certain speed regardless, but standard gear can mean the difference between walking away and spending the night in hospital. I'm travelling with my bike at the moment and hit a llama at 50mph- my Adventurespec gear with all the pads meant all i had was a grazed elbow and a limp after the bike landed on my boot. No way i am taking my armour out!"
Two words “Regulatory Capture”. We are purchasing equipment based on standards agreed by the manufacturers themselves and endorsed by the EU. Lest we all forget the level of protection these give were reduced last time around. Rather than demand increased levels of protection the manufacturers and the EU agreed on reduced levels.
If you compare this approach to that adopted by Brian Sansom (proprietor BKS Leathers) namely protection to the Cambridge Standards you will find a manufacturer whose aim is to protect his customers to the highest levels.
If you have an Aerostich suit you will find their armour is not EC marked, if you crash in their gear you will find that you it does works very well. Personal anecdotes only really help where one has identical experiences so I won’t tell you my crash stories.
The point is that many manufacturers used to provide better protection working to higher standards, they colluded with the EU to reduce the levels of protection in their pursuit of profit.
Your decision to wear armour or not is entirely yours- if you decide armour is a good idea then don’t believe all you read and hear, maybe make your own judgement, the much vaunted EU standards are there to protect but not maybe the people we thought.
@@bobklee2397 If 'regulatory capture' is the point some are taking from this, then it's perhaps worth pointing out that we've been pushing for optional higher safety levels for a long time (and no, it doesn't affect insurance)... After some brands opposed optional higher safety standards, we called them out on it. We launched the High Performance Awards to give those that want to give riders choice a chance to prove higher protection. We called out misinformation on riding jeans... there's a lot more too if you want to look into it.
ua-cam.com/video/n22vtWc8QRw/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html
www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-safety-ce-standards
www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
Once you buy into how sales works then the anything is better than nothing takes hold and your wallet is open season. MIPS helmets are sold in the same way, somehow your head impacting the ground at nearly 100 feet per second or even half of that is going to be better protected by a helmet that allows the shell to move some small fraction of distance because the remaining time of impact magically disappears.
Part of learning is to be able to discern the intent of what someone else os trying to explain. In that F9( was pretty clear although eog gets in the way for many). He referred to impact, not abrasion other than to say armor did have some value in preventing abrasion.
But lets be honest, there are different qualities of armor and most are just pads flopping around inside a pocket sewen into a jacket or pants right? How many of those armored items keep the pads where they can do any good? Few. So instead of listening to what F9 said lets all jump on the bandwagon of buy any armor because anything is better than nothing. Lets not advocate for better than what there is, lets instead sit around and figure out how to shoot down the very simple message that the standards used to sell armor are actually useless even if the armor is better than nothing.
There s a difference between the standards being useless and the armor not being so. Its difficult to think critically instead of going for the controvesy and try to piggy-back on someone else's popularity as is being done in this video but enough people did seem to figure out what F9 was saying.
The bottom line is that despite my not really being enamoured with F9's sharpie physics and many other out there ideas, he accomplished in that short video something you could never do, generate awareness among litterlly thousands and thousands of people who might complain about him but after a while think about the standards they so willingly accept as being more than something manufacturers and a few others dreamed up to sell armor.
And we need to remember that this is not the entirety of Ryan’s argument. In a previous video he showed stats about various types of injury and advocated for sensible use of protective equipment and the money spent on it. Good boots and good gloves with sliders on the heel of the hand along with a helmet and abrasive resistant clothing would statistically protect riders far better than the best armored one piece suit. This is another installment in his argument.
The knee armor in my pants doesn’t stay in place and did not protect me in a previous crash. The rest of it did its job (maybe) but I wasn’t wearing good boots and my left ankle and foot were severely damaged.
Having landed on my knees on a motorway after being launched into the air by a blind car driver -- and walking away; I'll keep the armour.
Glad you're here to tell us! All the best, John
It's always the cars fault isn't it lol
I have a good friend who, years ago, ended up needing a hip replacement after a low-speed driveway tipover. He was in his 20's at the time.
This is entirely anecdotal and assertive, of course, but I suspect that there are a lot of less-than-catastrophic accidents, esp. those that don't involve calling the authorities or paramedics, that don''t get reported, as they're less severe. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that some armor coverage would at the very least help lessen the severity of "abrasions, bruising, and lacerations."
@@thirstybonsai1888obviously not always but 90% of the time things I've seen car drivers do while on a bike would definitely put you off
Same. I'll be keeping the armour. I've had accidents with and without armour. Armour saves a lot of pain. Especially since the clothing its in is certified to a standard. Bonus points because I get to keep my skin on also.
I absolutely respect journalists that call each other out with facts. It helps us all make better decisions.
Not sure what you're talking about. This video hasn't provided _any_ evidence that armour is worth it.
It's two people with a hunch that differs from Ryans.
The trouble with all this armour protection is it can and does give a false sense of security..invulnerability even...
I'm a paramedic, I work in London and it seems the only bikers we need to treat are those not wearing proper gear- boots make a massive difference and pads are a must, at least for slower crashes. Yes you're dead after a certain speed regardless, but standard gear can mean the difference between walking away and spending the night in hospital. I'm travelling with my bike at the moment and hit a llama at 50mph- my Adventurespec gear with all the pads meant all i had was a grazed elbow and a limp after the bike landed on my boot. No way i am taking my armour out!
Thanks so much for this! All the best, John
This is another reason the test data is not a significant enough sample size. They aren't going to interview people who fell off bikes, got up and rode back home. They'll only look at data for people who are hospitalized or treated. Somewhat like a survivor bias (but the opposite case here). If you're in bad enough accident to get treatment/participate in the data collection, you're already in bad shape
If you wore airbags instead of pads there would be zero injury. That is really the gist of F9,s video, not squidding it!
I'll echo the sentiment about boots. I highsided in casual motorcycle trainers and smashed my foot up, and 9 months later I'm still not healed fully. Foot injuries are so complicated to fix, I would have much rather snapped my leg.
Good to hear from someone on the front line and a great job you all do. I often wear ankle High motorcycle boots not full hight, which have ankle protection and Z plate in the sole. Are the injuries you treat from riders wearing trainers or these type of foot protection? Cheers Matt
One of Fortnine's key points was manufacturers' misleading marketing regarding armor, which was valid. He also suggested that short of full a MotoGP suit, motorcycle gear sold by all the big brands mainly reduces road rash, not fractures. Fractures are rarely mentioned in the hundreds of moto apparel marketing videos on UA-cam today (i.e., Revzilla). My takeaway from Ryan Fortnine: There is room for improvement in both the armor and the marketing.
this is the correct view point in my opinion. He never said it was completely useless, just that per the studies, it didnt prevent fractures.
@@mike_honcho_92 Which, when it's referred to as "impact protection" is quite important, and entirely the takeaway of his video. It's similar to calling something "stab-proof" when it offers very little puncture resistance, but does a good job mitigating slashes. "Yeah it doesn't do what the name implies, but it's still useful for other things."
I feel like F9 just started a conversation that needed to be addressed.
He complained that the manufactorers were too minimalisitisch in designing protectors… so he removes them. In my opinion that channel is looking for controversie, and losing credibility,
you're 100% right. Anyone that took it as him saying that you shouldn't wear pads completely missed the point..
F9 is very entertaining, but anyone who's been up the road on his arse (myself included) knows that those pads help. Ryan made valid points about impact protection relating to bone fractures and no doubt improvements there would be helpful, but in the mean time I'll be keeping my pads firmly in place.
It's odd that his takeaway from the research appeared to be that "these pads should be required to do more to be fully effective, so I'm removing them".
He stopped being factual some time ago.
Hes a tool making a video like that though!
Same, crashed once in a semi slow lowside, landed on my hip. If i hadnt worn pants with pads in the hip area i would have not walk away easily. Now i did with no issue at all except a minor bruise.
Exactly. @@JCintheBCC
One thing often overlooked in gear discussions is the everyday riding accidents that don't get reported. How many riders have a tip over in their driveway or corner stop, or run a curb, etc and do NOT get injured because they had armor - and nothing is reported? Their buddy has a similar accident and breaks his elbow - without armor - and just reports it as a fall.
This is an excellent point, and we should have mentioned it in the video, thanks!
When we were regularly riding 2 up on a loaded GS there were a number of occasions where we over balanced while parking or getting fuel or making a slow speed turn. Having armour is really important when you go to cushion your fall with your elbow/shoulder and fall on your hip. I have sometimes lost my balance when trying to swing my leg off the tall seat on my dirtbike and hit the ground-same story.
@@bennettsbikesocial Aka survivor's bias? +1
I still take it from Ryan's usual shenanigans it must have been an April fool's awareness wake up call. Reverse psychology. And it worked in a cynical "bad news is good news" approach, didn't it? People began thinking: "NO WAY!" and that's good - raising attention. [Especially as he mentioned he does wear full armour offroad and on race tracks, and Helite's mech air vest on everyday riding, iirc?]
ATTGAT: Mine will stay on. As a thin guy I wish I could afford better fitting stuff like Stadler or Schwabenleder than Hein Gericke's last sale offered. At least Held Kangaroo leather gloves, Alpine Stars Crossboots and Schuberth helmet have been my must have. An airbag vest is on my list, but €€€ plus yearly leasing rates for electronic features?! 👎 Come on folks at Dainese etc., who are you, Adobe?
Agree, when I first started riding, I was doing low speed drills in a paved parking lot. Lost my balance and went down with the bike. The first thing that hit the pavement was my elbow. I had an armored jacket on with elbow protection and I didn’t feel much of anything. If I would have not had that, I’m certain I would have broken my elbow.
No one is talking about the elephant in the room.
It should be obvious that most armor moves. Especially for shoulder & elbows. The cloth pockets they are contained in have a lot of give & allow much movement. This is not the case for a thick leather jacket.
F9 made this a topic and thats a really good thing and I hope it goes viral in the industry so well done Bennetts for pushing this. I don't agree with Ryan about not wearing armour, its clear there is still a geniune benefit. F9 however made a very good point about the high allowable transmitable forces. I mean why do the standards stop at level 2 if there is passive armour out there that can exceed it? you can find level 2 on budget jackets/ suits and its the same standard when spending 5 times more. Then learning about the stnadards take no account for the size of the clothing. It starts to loose credibility when you see all the gaps. I think we can and should expect better form the indsutry, so I hope they take note.
Since 1979 I ride with armours. Now since over 900.000 Km. If something went wrong, I stood up, had a little shake, and continued my journey. The last time I had a Touchdown was two years ago on a muddy rural way. My handlebar hits my breast. Pain, but no injuries. Next week I bought breast pads for my Dainese Jacket.
Each protector helps the surgeon to have less work.
Sorry for my bad English😊
Nothing wrong with your English, and I'll bet it's way better than my handling of whatever your native language is! Cheers, John
Each pad helps the surgeon to do less work. Good one!!!
@@Titan500J The amount of biker padding has to be adjusted antiproportinally to situation on the labour market of medical professionals. Should we ever encounter a situation of rising unemployment amongst medical professionals, wearing less armour would be strongly advised.
As an almost 70 year old biker that passed my test mid 70s and, after a long break (kids,wife,house, work) I have been back 'into' biking for just seven years. I would NEVER go out either just for a short ride or, for a three week trip without armour in my bike clothing! And, all the armour that i have is level 2. To me it's madness to remove any is it just for comfort. Bye the way, I can remember riding in just an old combat jacket and ordinary jeans! Friggin mad😞.
Totally agree! Cheers, John
Yeah I immediately thought his video was extremely reductive, with the argument boiling down to "you'll still break your bones". Even if that was 100% true, there is so much more to injuries and protection!! I'll take any damage reduction those pads bring, any day of the week.
But is it enough? Do you have enough confidence in your gear that mitigates the risk of riding a motorcycle. A study in 2013 found jackets do not provide protection against spinal, abdominal, pelvic and other internal injuries.
If you want to be sure to stay in one piece, don't go riding. If you go riding, choose the best protection in your budget. For most people, that will certainly include armour.
@@bcinspectorman motorcycle gear can't protect you from every type of injury, that's simply a fact, but it decreases the chance of sustaining injuries and that's the entire point. You can't make gear that protects you from everything because there's too many variables, but the way they make gear is by protecting parts that are the most susceptible to injuries in an accident and try to keep you as mobile as possible because being able to move around on a motorcycle is quite crucial. If you wanna be 99% safe on the road you'll need a fully caged car with bucket seats, harnesses, hans device etc and even then with some bad luck you could still end up severely injured or worse. Just do your best to keep yourself safe and that's all you can do
@@bcinspectorman man, almost everything you mentioned is not covered by the armor on a typical jacket, with the exception of the spine, but most spine injuries are the result of twisting and compression instead of direct hits to the spine, so that's also to be expected even though most jackets have back protection. In order for a typical road jacket to be comfortable and usable enough to actually wear on a regular day it only tries to cover the most common areas to suffer. There are different, more specialized clothes to wear on the track that provide much more protection, but most people wouldn't want to wear them every day. 50% protection on your body is worth 100 times 100% protection left in your house.
@@bcinspectorman that's great I like my skin
Im really glad you made this video and posted a comment on the video in question. It seems pretty obvious to me that removing protection is removing protection, but it concerns me that people could be influenced to think it’s useless.
I get the point he’s making about needing to improve the standards that these manufacturers are held at. And someone who’s been in a few high and low speed motorcycle crashes (mostly on track), gear saved my body from everything except some fractured fingers and wrist. As far as I’m concerned gear saves your soft skin and limits movement of things that aren’t supposed to move a lot.
Took out a barbed wire and wooden fence with my back a few years back.
Awfully glad of the back armour when the paramedics were pulling the barbed wire out of me. Got a few pin pricks rather than completely ripped apart.
Blimey - glad you're okay! Cheers, John
Thanks for this video, I nearly stopped watching Fortnine’s vid. I “fell” off my ZRX 1100 at slow speed due to gravel; I landed directly on my elbow! The protection afforded me on my old and worn 10+ year old Dianese jacket protected my elbow … no injury! Just over a year ago I fell off of my bicycle and landed directly on my hip! Obviously no armour and a lower speed. I broke my hip … enough said!
Ouch! Hope you're on the mend okay. Cheers, John
I've had many motorbike accidents (up to 20), including the one where my motorbike landed on my ankle, and I always walk away without an injury (except for some pain),so no, I will NEVER EVER ride without body armour! John, thank you so much for making a contra-video in reaction to F9's. Experienced bikers know what it means to crash, but new bikers have to know the truth.
That's a lot of accidents! Glad you're okay
@@bennettsbikesocialI would say that Laury is just a bad rider 🙄
Ryan was completely right in his superb video calling out the motorcycle clothing monopoly...most motorcycle body armour is basically useless. Chuck it in the bin! 😂
your point is pretty off-topic as you refer to boots armour and Ryan was speaking about shoulder armour :)
But seriously, how did you get into sonmany crashes? Stunting? Racing?
As my instructor used to say - run along at full pace, or 30 mph of you can, then jump on you knees... then you'll see the need for proper bike kit with pads!
Much as I do enjoy F9's content, there's no way in hell I'll be taking my pads out; they aren't obstructive, often barely noticeable, and whatever protection they give I will happily take!
This is my 2nd biggest problem with F9's video! The pads aren't even a comfort issue lmao. There's no reason to take them out!
I am confused, wasnt F9s video april fools? If you read the research in his video, you see he is using data out of context? I thought that was the joke?
@@fightkostka
I get your point. Maybe that was the case.
But if he was trying to make some April Fools' Day joke that one was a bad joke because it has the power of misguiding people leading them to a bad and dangerous decision.
I mean, as an influencer he has to have a responsible conduct.
@fightkostka Huh, that's an interesting take. F9 is a witty guy so I suppose that could have been the videos plot. But I'll say I enjoy F9 videos and get most of the comedy and sarcasm in them, at least I think I do lol. But I certianly missed it in the armor vid if it was there.
My instructor while doing my cbt in the distant eons of time showed the effects of the face on the side of a desk with a half face helmet, simulating a curb compared to wearing a full face helmet instead.
Touché what that instructor said, I will always remember!
Thanks for this. I watched the RyanF9 video and couldn’t see any sense in his ‘personal’ action at all. At the age of 77 I need all the injury-protection help I can get, and following Ryan is something I’ll leave to others. Thanks for the swift reaction to that video. Les
He was advocating for better body armor not removing it, why do you think this is a bad thing? You should be for improving body armor...
@@chronometer9931 jfk he absolutely advocated removing CE1/2 pads because according to him those CE levels aren't good enough and thus is near useless - and since every armor pad on the market now is pretty much just CE1/2 pads that's really no different than saying don't use them, which is removing them.
So are you satisfied that the armour you're wearing is enough protection for you, especially at age 77? a large new analysis of mortality among people aged 50 and older in Denmark finds an increase in mortality risk of up to 25 percent with other types of fractures as well. Even with hip fractures, the "excess" risk of death remains slightly elevated for at least 10 years"
@@bcinspectorman I would try to get the best protection I can for all circumstances. I’m aware that ‘old people’ often die from hip fractures or their after-effects. Heard of several who fell out of bed and died because of the hip-fracture trauma. But while I would like 100% survivability guarantees I’m not aware of any, anywhere, on anything. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous.
The main thing, after putting (or keeping) protection in my motorcycle clothing, boots, gloves, helmet, is making sure I drive/ride in the safest way possible, looking out for my own activity and that of the drivers/riders around me. If that is successful then I’ll never need to test my in-clothing protection. That stuff is only useful as a last resort! Ride safe!! Les
@@bcinspectormanit's no longer seen as a privilege, it's a God given right to drive in the UK apparently, no matter how old you are with zero tests.
I really think F9 dropped the ball on that video. Though it raises some good questions and draws attention to some important things that the industry should be aware of and focus on, the key message of the video was that armor was useless and should be removed for added comfort and that's what stuck with people, which, for a channel as influential as F9 is inexcusable. I've heard of kids who broke their elbows and needed platinum inserts because they had a tip-over while doing a u turn on a bicycle for gods sake. Just because the force reduction level isn't enough to prevent a fracture with an impact of 50kN doesn't mean it won't prevent a fracture at all. Go ahead and smash your elbow against the doorsill on your way out with and without the motorcycle jacket, and decide for yourself whether Ryan's point is full of rubbish or not.
I'm glad I watched this video. I'm getting back on two wheels after riding dirt bikes as a kid, I never wore gear apart from a helmet, but sand and dirt are different to fall on. When I watched F9's video, it actually convinced me that armour was useless. Close one. I will try harder to make "informed, not influenced" decisions in the future. Well put.
You are the reason our video exists - thanks so much for commenting. Cheers, John
If you want some more info on just some of thew work we've been doing around safety standards for many years, have a watch of this: ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html
@@IIARROWS We've been pushing for optional higher safety levels for a long time (and no, it doesn't affect insurance)... After some brands opposed optional higher safety standards, we called them out on it. We launched the High Performance Awards to give those that want to give riders choice a chance to prove higher protection. We called out misinformation on riding jeans... there's a lot more too if you want to look into it.
ua-cam.com/video/n22vtWc8QRw/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html
www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-safety-ce-standards
www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
@@IIARROWS Even the studies the Ryan has cited said that the all CE certified protectors were definitely helpful and one said they did much better than non-certified ones, so the standard is not as low as you and Ryan make it to seem. Ryan claimed that the IP's benefits are negligible and showed it as a reason for him to stop using them. Please stop making up excuses for Ryan's misguiding video.
This is hilarious. Had you actually watched the Fortnine video, you would know that he DIDN'T say that motorcycle armor was useless. You have indeed been influenced - by the misinformation presented in this video.
@IIARROWS spot on. I'm beginning to wonder whether the author of this video - and those parroting his false claim that Fortnine declared motorcycle armor to be useless - even watched said video.
Having ridden wearing kit with no armour (late 70s leathers) and having come off I know the amount of bruising, sprains grazes and cuts I got were copious and I had several days of work just to recover. When I compare a similar get off I had wearing modern protective gear I walked away with a few bruises.
Some protection is better than no protection. I wont be removing any of mine.
Reason #132 to wear armored clothing while riding: Take a rock (or even a large insect) traveling at speed to the knee cap on the highway, with and without soft armor, and truth you will find 😁
Or a large stone to the knuckle protector on my glove! Saw it coming off the back wheel of a truck going the other way. Knocked my left hand off the grip! No injury though.
I like Ryan F9 but what he said isn't going to stop me wearing armour. More worrying; is that the industry only feels the need to meet the minimum requirement, according to him. If there is fault here, it's that the CE1/CE2 standard is too low. All imho...
The thing is, there are plenty of brands that are pushing to exceed the minimum standards, but there are also plenty who want to add confusion and try to remove standards. That's why we set up the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which help to highlight kit that goes beyond EN17092. And this will be evolving over time... www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
This is exactly their point. The CE standards are inadequate when it relates to fractures, for which the pads are entirely about.
@@Illuminum2392 No they aren't entirely about fractures, nor is it proven that they don't help with fractures (they most likely do and a big enough study could prove it). And, in fact, pads are the best soft tissue protection you will ever be wearing. All this is also in the first two minutes of this very video, explained from someone who actually does the studies.
@@ezsteel78 The evidence indicates that armour's additional abrasion resistance helps compensate for our clothing’s often inadequate abrasion resistance. However, armour is neither advertised nor tested for abrasion resistance.
Sadly, scientific studies show that the CE standard is too low to protect us from fractures.
@@The-Splat Also, MotoCAP studies have noted that the most common failure of the garment material during testing is burst failure often from the material folding or pulling. The abrasion pads provide a more uniform, more rigid backing material to hold the abrasion material (leather, textile, etc.) flat and in place, allowing the material to abrade more evenly and last longer during a slide.
Vdeos and discussions like these of Rf9 and BBs really have a significant benefit. They provoke argument and raise consciousness. It is is also a message to manufacturers that apart from awesome design riders need more protection. The points that relate to materials of gear and position and size as well as density stated here really have educational purposes. I know that my boots saved my ankle when bike landed on top of me an i ve seen most expensive moto shoes in ERs on feet of bikers that looked like spring flower with every stitch disintegrated. The point of light armour being fashionable but worn therefore instead of not being worn is a big step to stubborn non believers. However it s their choice. I personally use hockey knee guards and remove armour from my BMW pants. They just misfit and move. But they cost a lot. This discussion and effort put into making these videos could be a great message to all of us but also to manufacturers that we are not going to put up with all they offer and that we are aware.
F9's video made me pull out the armour pieces and wear my full MX body armour under my ADV jacket instead.
Did the same since I started riding. I never trusted soft armor, for me it's enduro hard armor and knee high boots or might as well use street clothes.
Just returned to riding after 25 years, and currently wearing the made to measure Manx leathers jacket and trousers I bought in 1985. Many obvious comments that both still fit ( I’m 6ft4in & 11st) but this video has got me seriously considering buying modern gear. Thank you.
Liz's comment reflects my own comment on F9's video: That people die from lacerations and blood loss, and very rarely from fractures alone (shock could definitely still come into play) and that if armour prevents/lessens lacerations, it's well worth it.
His point wasn't that armor is bad, the point was it's not good enough. What's wrong with improving body armor?
@@chronometer9931 Exactly, I'm growing tired of people missing the point of F9's video. He states his preference, he doesn't recommend that people copy him by removing the armour and he raises a big point about the current standards being too low. He even gave a suggestion of some armour that far exceeds CE level 2 for those that were interested.
@@chronometer9931 the problem is he clickbaited the video with that massive "USELESS" in the thumbnail picture. Useless and not good enough are two VERY different concepts.
People die from trauma which includes internal injuries not just fractures. "Motorcycle jackets were not protective for systemic injuries". Mortality risk from fractures for older riders: Study from Denmark: "a large new analysis of mortality among people aged 50 and older in Denmark finds an increase in mortality risk of up to 25 percent with other types of fractures (other than hip fractures) as well. Even with hip fractures, the "excess" risk of death remains slightly elevated for at least 10 years."
@@chronometer9931 His every argument about armor was wrong, because all the studies' quotes were taken out of context. And the studies claim the opposite of what Ryan was saying. To encourage improving the armor you should first point out the problems with it and Ryan didn't do that in his video!
My wife works in the hospital and spends a lot of time treating motorcyclists…. Wearing armour always helps reduce the level of injury..
Sometimes.
@@bcinspectormantrue, if you are wearing a back protector and a car T-bones you hitting your leg, armour won't help your leg much... but I think people can work on the edge cases themselves and think about what level of protection they want/need/afford.
In the Fortnine video they are discussing, Ryan says he doesn't use armor but does use airbags. In my personal view, I feel like you should use both, not just one. They protect different areas against different damage. Any spill on a bike can cause damage regardless of safety equipment, but more protective gear gives a higher chance of minimal damage.
@@CaptainAstrum totally agree! You can swap the back protector for an airbag, but keep the knee, elbow and hip protectors just in case. They might not be preventing a fatal injury, but they can prevent tons of pain
Can’t love this video enough. Thank you SO MUCH for reaching out to those authors and doing the actual legwork on this. Everyone who sees the Fortnine video needs to watch this. Just saying.
Thanks! Unfortunately, like the lock video, I suspect only a tiny fraction will realise. Cheers, John
I think the point I got from F9 was that standards could be improved. Air vest are probably a good investent. But Im going to wear my armour because every little helps...
the issue is that the video, to be more polarizing and attractive perhaps - is 99% "hahah remove your pads" and 1% "not really, they should be improved. But I'm not wearing them! BUY THIS AIRBAG VEST!"
Ryan does not like airbags either.
@@alrightdave6135 At the end of the video he shouts out the airbags
@@Galf506 Not at all.
@@alrightdave6135 tbf Ryan has said in several videos now how he uses an airbag quite a lot. He disses the electronic activation as it was conceived for track use (but companies look at hundreds of thousands of hours of road use in their ongoing R&D and send updates to electronic units) and hence he has bought and proudly uses a tether actuate HeLite.
All I know for sure is that had armour been available in 1970 I WOULDN'T have the soft tissue shoulder, elbow and hip problems that have dogged me for years. I always wear armour as at my age it is extremely hard to recover from injuries !!!!
I agree, I am a massive fan of Ryan and a fan of personal freedom to make choices, but you have to be extremely stupid not to wear armour.
To see fellow motorcyclists in tee shirt and shorts make me feel sick inside at the skin left in the road. I have friends who are nurses in my local A&E department who tell me that the body goes into shock with skin loss and can be the cause of death. Wear good motorcycle clothing and armour! You know it makes sense.
Glad you made this video 👍 I came off my bike a while back and my hip, elbow and shoulder armour 100% saved me from further injury. Only a fool would ride without armour in my opinion. Keep up the good work 👍
Thanks very much! Cheers, John
As a motorcycle rider in India, I feel naked without Armour and padding in my jacket. I wear them regardless of the extremely uncomfortable weather we have.
But RyanF9 has a point, the lobbying to make the min specs well below an acceptable value ahould be addressed.
Regulatory capture is a major, major problem.
I’m really pleased you have brought up Ryan F 9’s latest video on body armour. I think ANY extra armour is critical. I have always upgraded the back protector in my jackets. I survived a head on with a car that turned illegally infront of me, because of the boots, gloves,
Helmet and back protector I was wearing. It literally saved my life. I have now invested in an airbag vest. I cannot recommend breaking 8 ribs and having internal injuries. These would have been prevented if I’d had the vest on. No question.
Thank you for posting this on your video. It’s critical to make people aware.
I can unfortunately relate to this. Which airbag vest did you go for?
Decent video. One of the reasons why Fortnine's videos have such wide reach is because he provides a lot of good information and delivers it in a way the viewer is engaged throughout. I believe you have a lot of good information to share, but I could not sit through this entire video myself.
Well done for getting this out so quickly after Ryan’s misleading video👏
Ryan's title was click bait. He very clearly stated throughout the video and during the summary at the end, that pads just don't effectively prevent FRACTURES. He agreed they will reduce minor flesh wounds and simply decided not to wear them. What he wants ideally is fracture protection. Hence why he wears a sub 4 back protector on the race track.
Ironically, the biggest issue with back injuries is twisting, which no back protector can prevent.
@@bennettsbikesocial This is a straw man. No one ever argued what the most common type of injury is in any particular situation. We're just talking about the force required to cause a fracture and the type of pad that will prevent it (sub 4).
If you want to respond to Ryan in your video, great, do whatever you want. It's just disingenuous to pretend he said things he didn't say.
I don't think he has been on an accident lately😂😂😂
A conclusion based on a flawed understanding of a study that does in fact, not, say that pads don't prevent fractures. Merely that with their limited sample size, that is what the evidence points towards. He also stated in the end of the video that based on this flawed understanding, he no longer wears pads in his jacket (and I believe he doesn't wear pads in his pants either). So no, the title was not clickbait at all, the video is actively giving the advice of "don't bother with pads as they are ineffective, especially against fractures", which is terrible advice that a lot of his followers will blindly follow or otherwise use as justification for their own poor judgement.
Unfortunately the pads don’t include sensors so it can’t be shown in real accidents that a fracture would have occurred without the armour. Therefore when fractures do occur there is nothing to compare it to, so saying armour doesn’t stop fractures because people still get fractures is a bit of a straw man.
Thank you for bringing an expert in the field onto your channel to discuss this issue.
I believe Ryan is partially right - current armour I believe is leading rider's into a false sense of security, and is too expensive for what it is (it wouldn't protect you from a Rugby player's tackle let alone an accident)
It should be to a much higher standard as a minimum
Not all armour is expensive, and many brands are putting better and better protectors in. But some in the industry would like consumers to ignore standards, and instead trust in marketing hype (and influencer messaging).
If you can't spend $100 to save all kinds of your joints, bones, etc, then you are the problem.
A rugby tackle is NOT an acute, high velocity, high density impact. It is wide range, low velocity, low density impact.
You're saying that a padded football helmet is as good as no helmet. Not the case at all
Can't remember the last time I was rugby tackled whilst riding!
Sarcasm aside, you're comparing apples and oranges.
I've been off on public roads (hit diesel approaching a roundabout) and came off around 40mph whilst wearing a fully armoured set of leather.
Both hip and elbow protectors had huge gouges out of them and led to me walking away shaken and bruised but otherwise uninjured.
I will always wear the best protection I can afford. To do otherwise just seems idiocy
Even though generally speaking I’m a Fortnine fan, I had already decided after watching said video that my armour would remain in. Abrasion and contusion protection is sufficient reason to leave it in seeing that it is the most common injury anyway.
I appreciate why you has done this video. I believe Ryan point was to create a push from consumer for a better protection maybe a C3 will be something people will want so companies might invest in producing it.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it?
Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum.
Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful.
There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
@@bennettsbikesocial I do agree with you, there is better ways to do it, because many people will follow without thinking twice and fall off the cliff because the previous Lemming did it, more if that Lemming has such a background as F9 do.
I did not understand his message as "remove you pad because they are useless", He said they have use when you slide what I got from his video is this pad will not protect you from fracturing impacts and as you said in the video it will protect you from certain fractures but not all.
So, for me F9's video make me if anything being more careful knowing the limitation of my C2 pads.
But again, I do understand why you did your video there is not many thinkers but lots of followers. and Influencers should be careful of the consequences of their advice/influence.
Thank you for doing this. I watch Ryan at FortNine and enjoy his content. But I do NOT take his words as gospel and I do not expect that he expects that. However since most young social media consumers 'tend to' believe him at face value, it concerned me. I've raced my entire life, high-sided at 140 MPH at the racetrack, and got airlifted to the trauma center. Not a broken bone or any road rash in my custom-made team leathers. Knocked out my front tooth, but I'm too handsome anyway. ;-). I write for Web Bike World and have evaluated the most currently available air vests, Alpinestars 3 and 5, Helite Turtle 2, eTurte, HMOOV, Mo'Cycle jeans, and DAir. I"'m in the process of evaluating KLIM, Rev'It, and HELD. Will do an all-air vest comparison after I'm done. I'd never choose to remove armor from my riding gear. I do choose to remove the "U" from armor, color, and other words you Brits insist on inserting them into. LOL
I never ride without my Helite air vest. On the track there is kitty litter, run off zones, corner workers with flags and first aid kits, two EMTs on standby, and no curbs or cars texting. Not so on the roads here in the USA.
That is my concern with F9 videos as well. I like his videos and been watching them for almost 8-9 years now but he does put out some controversial stuff like the body positioning video and has young fans who take his words very seriously.
It's clear you only looked at his thumbnail and not the actual video because he has the same conclusion you do (including using a helite vest)
Thanks for posting this! Its a very useful follow up on whether armour is worth wearing. Would be very easy for someone to watch the fortnine video and come away with the idea that armour is useless.
After T boning a car at 60mph I received many serious injuries, The Surgeon that dealt with me said that without a quality helmet and good quality back armour (including knee and shoulder etc) saved my life and my many fractures would have been disabling breaks. 7 Months on, I am now pretty much fully recovered. Armour rocks👍🏻
Glad you're on the mend. All the best, John
Good guest, and good conversation!
The thing I appreciate about Fortnine's videos is they'll show their work or otherwise provide their reasoning. That way the viewer's able to judge whether they agree with the conclusions depending on whether they trust the facts presented.
Personally, I've only ever spilled at low speeds, and even skateboarders wear pads to keep from breaking bones. So if armor only keeps me from breaking an elbow after slipping on mud in the neighborhood, well that's a win to me.
My knees thanked me when i went down the second time WITH pads and didn't need surgery again... The first time i scraped of a lot of skin, a third of my right kneecap and some big fleshy bits below. I wore my riding jeans and got the idea that it looked better without the pads.
10mm rubber padding is better than 2mm fabric between me and the ground. I'm extremely convinced about that!
Ooof! Glad you recovered to ride again. Cheers, John
Great video. It's the response that was needed to that nonsense. Common sense says experiencing a lesser force is preferable to a greater force. What's more, cuts, bruises, lacerations hurt like hell and will stop the fun just as quickly as a fracture. KEEP YOUR ARMOUR IN, FOLKS!
I'll take some protection to lessen broken bones knowing that I may still have SOME broken bones, but not as many...
I really didn't think this needed to be debated?
I guess there are doubters.
Great Video.
Having had an accident in November 23 in which I sustained a relatively serious fracture I have to say the body armour prevented further injury. As this affected the lower arm the medical team were amazed that mu elbow was untouched which was thanks to the armour in my Alpine Stars Bogata touring jacket. I had no other injuries thanks to my kit. The accident involved going head over heels over the bars at approximately 50 mph. Removing armour is a seriously short sighted act in my view.
Really sorry to hear this. Hope you're on the mend. Cheers, John
Thank you for highlighting the nuance in the conversation. While Social Media is where nuance goes to die, there is always a spectrum to everything in life. As you say, "what you wear is and should always be your choice" but proper education about those choices is crucial. Yes, a pad on your knee may not prevent a tib-fib fracture, but a helmet won't stop my neck from snapping. I'll still wear one. That having been said, if I wanted the highest level of protection while motorcycling, I would add more wheels, a metal cage, sensors, and airbags... and stop riding a motorcycle. Everyone has to draw their own line.
I will also note in the conversation you discuss the benefits of airbags. I've been saying for years that F9's video comparing airbag designs is critically flawed. Ryan notes at 8:30 in his video that a 40ms crash detection of an electronic airbag is slower than the 36ms it takes to cover the 0.5m tether at 50 kph. However, he's comparing *deployment* to *detection*. My Astars TechAir5 deploys (fully) in under 40 ms. Helite states on their website that inflation of a Helite Turtle (with slower CO2 than Ar) takes about 100ms. This is never mentioned in the video. So, the 36ms tether begins the 100ms inflation for a total of 136ms at best. If I am rear-ended by a car traveling 30 mph, guess how long I have before I hit the windshield of that car? About 100ms. TechAir is fully inflated. Helite is partially inflated. Anyone who has slept on a partially-inflated air mattress knows how much good that does. I'll stick with the argon.
Excellent video and highly valuable explanation of what the body armour will and won't do. Think F9 did get it wrong with that recent video as it was easy to come away from watching it thinking that current armour isn't worth having.
Exactly - that's my worry. Cheers, John
I was in a pretty nasty low speed accident a few years where I was hit side on by a minivan with a distracted driver who failed to stop at a stop sign and even after colliding with me. This resulted in my leg being crushed under my bike and ground into the pavement as the minivan dragged my bike with it. I was wearing an armored jacket and kevlar lined armored jeans (which slightly annoyed the ER staff trying to cut them off). This gear did absolutely nothing to prevent the fractures in this accident but that not at all what it is designed for. I still ride and still wear and armored jacket and jeans when I do because I have also slid my bike on several occasions when caught in unexpected bad weather or loose sand or debris on the road and in those instances, even at freeway speed once, I was able to stand up and dust myself of and in most cases gather my bike and ride away. I know if I were not wearing quality armor when those accidents happened I would be painted across the pavements and much less likely to be able to laugh off a stupid mistake. Oh and that accident with the minivan, Beside my leg being completely mangled, I had barely a scratch on my because the gear did what it was designed to do and stopped the road from tearing into me.
So glad to hear you're back up and riding again. Cheers, John
I am still here, healthy and still riding at 77 years of age after a couple of serious motorcycle accidents if I did not have my full face helmet and armored gear on at the time of the accidents. In one of the accidents, I impacted the side of a large SUV at 45 mph that turned left in front of me. I had no serious injuries, but the bike was totaled and had a huge dent in the steel tank where my knee had crushed it. If I had not been wearing the knee armor, I have no doubt that my knee cap would have been shattered, leaving me with lifelong debilitating injuries. I did suffer a small fracture in my vertebrae, as my back armor was high density foam, and NOT CE armor. I had no other abrasions or impact injuries. I will not ride without CE armor! Thanks so much for reinforcing what I already knew about the value of all protective gear. I also would not be here today without my full face helmet as I was also knocked unconscious in the same accident while wearing one.
Sorry to hear about that, but glad you're here to tell us! Cheers, John
Thanks for making this. I haven't watched Fortnine's video yet but I did see the title pop up on the subscriptions and doubted it. I'll carry on wearing the protection I have.
To submise the video... He says the minimum standards are too low, and that he wears an airbag when riding (airbag goes way beyond the standards and provides greater protection over all). He personally doesn't use the pads in his gear and does NOT recommend for anyone else to do what he does. He says right in the beginning that the title was an April Fools joke (more so towards the gear manufacturers, than anything else). Ryan's video has had the effect it was meant to... get people talking and making people aware of the bad minimum standards.
This is a great, good faith interpretation of F9's video and I'm glad to see alternative opinions without any fake drama.
Well done getting this together so quickly
Great video! And thank you for including Paul Varnsverry's commentary; he's the person to listen to and not some UA-cam entertainer who is unapologetic about using clickbait to mislead motorcycling consumers on motorcycling PPE.
By the way, FortNine deleted my comment in which I addressed Ryan F9's misleading content in the video. It was my same comment that you replied to; my comment had garnered over 1,000 likes in the span of a couple of hours and was getting a lot of traction with motorcyclists. I've published the comment again; let's see if they remove it once more.
Again, great video!
Please feel free to post the full comment in here Roy
Your comment's gone again Roy. Please do post it in full here if you like.
@@bennettsbikesocial Yes, just noticed that. It was nearing 10,000 likes.
@@MotorcycleGearHub Unbelievable! What an absolute joke he is!
Just FYI, it's likely that Ryan didn't delete the comment, most likely UA-cam did because some word about injury or harm triggered UA-cams nebulous analysis systems. I find that comments of mine disappear frequently on just about any given video.
Thanks for bringing Mr Varnsverry in and clarify a misleading information in Ryan's latest video. I don't know why he had the fallacious thought of filming this video without asking and debating with the people who conducted the sourced studies but then proceeded to dismantle decades of road safety prevention mindlessly. This is definitely something that we'll hear about for years, I'm afraid. Once again thank you for holding this very insightful discussion with Mr Varnsverry, and let's hope garments manufacturers will work upon improving body armour.
Thanks for being the voice of reason for motorcycle riders once again. Very happy to have found your channel already a while back. I like F9 for entertainment and sometimes scientific explenations. This time they didn´t meet my view, next time it might be different.
I am someone who is considering getting into motorcycles, but because of my background i cant imagine not wearing armor. I skate roller derby and train, and I can tell you that a fall to your unpadded knee to a hard surface can absolutely fracture youe kneecap or blow ligaments. Even if you do have an injury, small amounts of padding can really help mitigate the severity.
Especially for newer skaters i always *always* recommend getting better protection than you think you need. Better to spend an extra $100 and get pads suited to the sport, you only have one set of knees.
Absolutely this! F9’s video hung everything on fracture and not on any other (more likely) injury. His title was misleading hyperbole and the message wildly misleading. Good job!
I completely agree with you, there are so many other more common injuries to focus on. But there isn't anything wrong with focusing on fractures. The real issue is he doesn't accurately present the whole picture. He correctly says ce2 reduces ~50kN to 9kN, and both are above 4.5Kn fracture limit so its bad. But ignores the fact there's an 80% reduction.
Do the reverse calculation: if your goal is to stay
I think not focusing on things like abrasion is fair because non-armor-insert items (such as proper jackets and pants) already can provide adequate protection against those things. So impact resistance, being the main thing that those clothing items can't provide, is a reasonable main focus for a discussion about armor inserts.
Ryan knew exactly what his video was for - nothing to do with armour, it was to cause controversy and create a viral response to get F9 views. He's done a great job.
Thanks to Ryan you are having this discussion and people are taking it more seriously and informed.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it?
Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum.
Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful.
There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
Thank you for this. I, like the multitude, devour Fortnines productions. That last sparkly extrusion had me worried a bit and questioning my, and more importantly my pillion of 36 years belief in the expensive clobber we wear.
There's also a psycholoogical anfle on this. Its long been said, people riding naked also ride slow - the corollary is true: if you feel safer than you actually are you'll take risks that will add data to crash stats.
Yes its called compensating behavior theory , when seat belts were made mandatory it increased the incidence of accidents , which then had a knock on effect of the vulnerability of motorcyclists , cyclists and pedestrians etc.
Do they? I've seen plenty of people riding fast in a t-shirt and shorts.
I believe that the same is true on the ski slopes. Before sports (ski) helmets became popular and in many places mandatory, beginner and intermediate skiers and boarders worked on improving their skills to stay safe and have fun but now it seems to me that those beginner and intermediate enthusiasts are taking more chances falsely believing that they are protected from serious injury. That's a dangerous way of thinking no matter what the sport or activity. Ride safe!
Ryan at F9 is highly entertaining if not criticaly accurate. I too am somewhat dismayed he would imply "removing" protection as an option. But, as one previous commmenter indicated, Ryan did say this was an April 1 story. Maybe to just get us all to think more about asking manufactures to improve the protection. This Bennett's Bike Social article is a perfect anectdote and brings me back to reality. I loved his details and discussions with an expert. ATGATT for me. And, I hope there's more options for me to choose from in the in near future, thanks in part to Ryan @ F9 and Bennett for calling it out.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it?
Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum.
Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful.
There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
Thank you for diving deeper into this than Fortnine did, I think their channel focus is to make entertaining content instead of informative. I much prefer your channel, it may not be as flashy but its real information that is useful!
Thanks very much! I love entertaining content, but I do admit to being pretty anal about stuff that looks at safety.
As well you should be. Thank you for this.
Thanks for this video. As someone who has experienced soft tissue damage during a relatively slow-speed crash while riding as a pillion, I couldn't wrap my head around Fortnine's video. Even an L1 pad is better than not having anything, though I believe engineers should strive to design something better than L2-level stuff, not like what Knox is doing with their Microlock Compact by doing the bare minimum for a level 2 certification (though I have them and like them).
Ultimately Ryans point was that the armor does provide some benefit but he has been taking it out so he enjoys riding casually around town more. And nothing in this video really refutes that. He also said in his video that he wears a large back protector and padded leathers on the track. My armor will stay in my jacket because its comfortbale enough for me but I'll feel less bad the next time I wear just jeans on bottom. I think theres a lot of hype around armor but its not doing as much as people might think. Full disclosure I have crashed and hit my face, shoulder, and knee on the ground. No knee padding meant I had a little scrape on my knee but it wasnt a big deal. Full face helmet and leather jacket meant my other impact zones were fine.
I'm amazed how quickly you got this out! And I'm so pleased you did. I was left with a big question mark when I watched the F9 video, and this basically backs up my gut feeling.
F9 have had a string of dodgy pseudo-science vids recently. I hope they aren't losing the plot.
I'd have preferred to do a better job on it, but it seemed too important to delay. Cheers, John
I took a big tumble in 2018 and due to a bang on the head I can’t remember the actual crash. I broke a lot of bones, my T6 vertebrae, 6 ribs, collarbone and hand. I was wearing top of the line gear with armour and a back protector. I got NO skin injuries which made my recovery easier. I now wear an airbag which I believe would have saved some of my torso injuries. Road rash is painful and can easily get infected so even if amour only saves those injuries it’s well worth the effort. I’m keeping mine.
Ryan didn't say you had to give up your "airbag", in fact, he mentioned the "airbag" armour as one piece that will prevent fractures and potentially lethal internal injuries. But the cost will prevent most from being able to purchase that gear.
My friend was in a motorcycle accident. He only wore a leather jacket, but it saved his skin (literally). After seeing how much damage the now tattered jacket absorbed, he decided to wear armour every time.
Glad he's okay! Cheers, John
Understand the issue with the "Useless" title but I've got to admit that I would never have known how poor my armour actually is without seeing Ryan's video.
I've already got an airbag vest but will likely upgrade to a newer / better version.
Ryan clearly has editorial freedom given that his employer (F9) sells (amongst other things) bike gear / armour etc.
I'm not taking my armour out but appreciate Ryan starting the discussion.
We've been pushing for optional higher safety levels for a long time (and no, it doesn't affect insurance)... After some brands opposed optional higher safety standards, we called them out on it. We launched the High Performance Awards to give those that want to give riders choice a chance to prove higher protection. We called out misinformation on riding jeans... there's a lot more too if you want to look into it.
ua-cam.com/video/n22vtWc8QRw/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/5QcWajVTfB4/v-deo.html
www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-safety-ce-standards
www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/products/high-performance-safest-motorcycle-clothing
Way more informative, and a much more sober look at the issue of protection, than Fortnine did. Thanks for that.
It always amazes me how many people still ride with very little protective gear. I have seen a pillion fall off at highway speed wearing only a helmet and flimsy summer clothes. The worst thing I remember was her bloodied hands where she must have braced herself before hitting the road. Even some basic gear would have saved her a lot of pain. Protect yourself.
It seems the discussion often jumps straight from abrasions to fractures, but there are plenty of other impact related injuries that are not fractures. e.g. torn ligaments and muscles, dislocations, and even just large haematomas.
It also often seems to be similar to the classic old discussion of the introduction of helmets to the military, where suddenly "studies" showed increased head injuries, and ignored the fact that more soldiers lived long enough to have injuries.
My issue with this is his focus on fractures.
I mean, riding in dirt, I've crashed hard onto rocks lots of times. I've slammed hard into rocks from standing on a tall adventure bike. Ive hit those rocks on my knee, on my elbows, on my shoulders. Wearing armour, ive gotten up and continued to ride absolutely unhurt.
Ive also done those things without armour, and been hurt pretty bad - ride endingly bad.
Armour wont protect you from hitting a car at 80mph. But it WILL lessen and spread the impact. This can make a huge difference in a lower speed impact.
Also, slide protection. If I do go down at high speed and slide, the armour is extra material to slide on.
Even if it never changes whether i break a bone or not, armour is still worth it for me.
So what armour are you wearing that allows you to repeatedly "crash hard onto rocks"? Does it have a big letter "S" on the front?
@@bcinspectorman ce2 armour (shoulder, elbow, back, knee, and hip) in the Revit Sand 3 gear. Big, standard CE2 pads.
This isn't controversial. I'm a late 40's guy riding a T7 in places requiring more skill or a smaller bike than I have. It's just regular CE2 armour, not special stuff, but it's big - nearly full coverage from shoulder through wrist.
300lb guy, on a tall bike, slammed into rocks over and over, with no injuries to speak of.
Yeah, speeds aren't high - we're not talking about high speed collisions with cars here, as I was pretty clear about - but low speed fuckups that drive you from standing on the bike very rapidly into rocks while going up and down rocky hills off road. Very much still the sorts of impacts that definitely end rides unarmored.
I mean, I will (as a 300lb 6'4" guy) without hesitation drop to my knees(just straight up fall down onto them) on pavement with the ce2 kneeguards. I would NEVER do that just in a pair of jeans, I wouldn't walk again for days.
Hello guys. Lovely video.
My only issue is that you guys did confirm most of Ryan’s observations regarding the faults in riding armour. And though he did say to remove these things I suspect he was expecting these response videos, effectively making people discuss the issue.
Finally he did not stop using armour he just finds the best ones he can, replacing the ones that aren’t up to his standard. My wife’s armour is level one and so soft that I doubt it’ll make any difference…
Ride safe
I just low sided last week at around 40mph and the only part that got hurt was my knee(road rash) and my lower back. The reason for my knee, not wearing riding pants and for my back, not having a the pack pad in my new jacket. However the big take away was I got up and rode back home. I didn’t take a survey which makes me wonder how many people crash and get saved by armor but never let anyone online know. Now those are the statistics I would like to know.
An excellent point. Glad you're okay!
All I know is that when doing the extended TAT I fell off 8 times in 7,350 miles, admittedly all off-road but some of those falls where on seriously nasty sharp rocks etc and I did not even get a single bruise. Now off-road is different to on-road and off-road armour is different too, but personally, even on-road I would rather take the chance that soft armour will considerably reduce injury and for the very little inconvenience it causes, if any, and always wear it.
Here's one to mumble about...as motorcycle gear protection is supposedly improving the number of deaths keep rising. In Canada in 2020 they had the highest number of motorcycle related deaths in 20 years of keeping records! In 2021 in the US they registered the highest number of deaths since 1957! Armour does not protect against excessive speeding nor riding while under the influence of alcohol. Excessive speeding was the cause of 34% of deaths and 27% involved alcohol!
The total number may be up, but how about the actual rate, i.e "X per 1,000 riders" or something like that? Not trying to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious
Good video. I think it’s comes down to common sense - as a rider, give yourself a fighting chance if the worst happens. I opt for base layer Kevlar under layers with armoured hoody and riding jeans on top. A good fitting helmet, and gloves and boots that afford you best feel of the controls. We are all our own health and safety officers! Enjoy the ride 👍
As a retired police motorcycle rider, having been on the tarmac more often then I liked, I can only say: "Wear your Armour!"
Stay Safe..
Ed.
Thanks very much fort this! Cheers, John
Excellent and very informative video John, thank you. I have been wearing armour for years both on my motorcycle and MTB and shall continue to do so
Still not convinced about armour? Go outside and elbow the tarmac as hard as you can. You'll change your mind.
I have a set of jeans that the knee armour never stayed in the right place. I took it out and changed to the knox separate kneepads that do. It couldn't do anything as it was always in the wrong place. The ones in the the rst pro suit I was wearing at Donington, did its job when visiting the coppice gravel trap upside down. :) Thanks for what you do John.
Glad you're okay! Cheers, John
You quote the conclusion of Liz de Rome's study, which is very clear, and should be enough to convince everyone to wear protection, if possible level 2, since it's no thicker or more uncomfortable than level 1.
There's another study from Rome that's just as interesting:
"Effectiveness of motorbike protective clothing: riders' health outcomes in the six months following a crash".
The conclusion is also unequivocal: "We found strong associations between the use of protective clothing and the attenuation of the consequences of the injury in terms of health and well-being after the accident. Given this evidence, it seems likely that the use of protective clothing will bring significant benefits to riders in the event of an accident".
Even without carrying out a study, simple logic suggests that protection, however imperfect, is better than no protection...
And no one whose word is listened to should say "I'm taking off my protective gear because it's not doing any good"...
As I said on F9s video, I've fallen off horses and a bike (and the roof of a car onto concrete because I was young and dumb enough to car surf), the impacts were very different (land and pretty much stop vs slide). So yeah, will keep wearing armour.
At least we're having this discussion about armour and where the standards are/should be. Thanks for another very informative video 👍
The point of the video from F9 was to trigger a reaction and it worked. We are all talking about it now. Wouldn't be nice if we could have level 3 or 4 available in our gear? Thanks for bringing more data to the conversation
Whatever gear I buy I upgrade the pads to more technical protection which is also much less obtrusive. I have a big bag full of those plastic rubber pads which seem useful for something but just take up space in the cupboard.
My kids and I always yell "Meat Crayon!" when we see riders who aren't wearing protective gear. I ride and I've crashed. I had proper gear and boots and was told by the surgeons that fixed my compound fractured ankle that if I hadn't had the boots on I would have lost my left foot (impact with a guard rail). I had a good pair of gloves on and still lost the ends of my left pinky and ring fingers but I imagine that would have been worse too without the gloves. Dress for the slide, not the ride.
I'm riding since 1997 and did sports, that needed thick protectos for many, many years. I support Ryan's view 100%. He never said, that protection is useless, but that the minimal protection manufactures have to use, is just bad.
How many rider have 100% fitting suits, with correct size protectors sitting at the correct position? Esp on synthetic gear, that has a bit looser fit, the protectors wander all over the place and will not help you at all. That is why I always wear either a protector vest under my gear, or at least a back protector vest. These things don't move and can be modified to fit your body perfectly, while still having better mobility, because your suit just fits better. Also, not matter if you want to wear your leather, or synth suit, the vest always protects you the same.
When it comes to protection gear, there is no one size fits all, but manufacturers use the same ellbow protector from jacked size xs, to xxxl. That can't make sense.
While at the topic, please wear your riding shoes. They are SOO much more important, than most rider think!
People realize that Ryan was joking about not wearing armor right? It was April Fools. He was however calling out the armor companies and the types being promoted and showing that they are substandard.
Thanks for making this video. Peer review system doing us all a favor. Maybe RF9 wasn't telling the complete truth, but he did start this discussion. Resulting in more info for us riders
The discussion's been ongoing for a long time, but drawing attention to it shouldn't be at the expense of some people potentially taking their armour out!
@twowheels90 : Please keep the debate going, because interest in this topic needs to survive the social media “news cycle” and not fizzle out.
It wasn't that impact resistant armor is useless it was that the bare minimum requirements for the armor is shit and will do very little to protect you. Motorcycle armor needs higher standards overall.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it?
Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum.
Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful.
There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
Thanks for bringing some well needed clarification on this subject, its clear that even flawed protectors are better that no protectors, lets see what comming standards will bring in improvements. The development of semi-soft protection material and other advancements in protection design might allow higher protection with reasonable comfort.
I think, that my 32 years of road riding has taught me that it's not the big spills...the collisions...that are the most likely accident to dress for, it's the low speed ones. Every time I've come off the bike( and only once in the last 10 years ), Abrasions and a few bruises have been the lot of it. Never has my helmet touched the road in an accident. Helmet, armoured jacket, gloves and boots have been my minimum PPE requirement for a long time now. Doesn't protect my legs...but, you roll the dice.
Same here. If I'm nipping out locally I'll wear jeans, but if I'm going over 20ish miles I'll get the overtrousers on
Good to see this response as I’d already had a biker friend send me the F9 video !
I don't think F9 said anything about being useless but that against fractures there was no protection at all. And the most important point of his video is that the standars for these protections is really low so we won't see any improvements unless something is done against this companies/laws.
If there truly is a deep and clever message to Ryan's video (potentially at the expense of many being exposed to more harm), then wouldn't it have been better to actually do something about it?
Fort9 could test all armour and declare what level of impact mitigation it offers for instance, because after all, many brands ARE striving for better protection, and they deliver it. Of course, that takes a lot of time and effort, and it doesn't generate any money, as I know from launching the Bennetts High Performance Awards, which recognise kit that meets the highest existing standards, as well as giving the criteria for brands to prove that some kit really does go above and beyond. Those platinum and Diamond standards require properly sized Level 2 armour as a minimum.
Or he could simply have pointed people to MotoCAP in Australia, which tests gear sold in that region (and there's a lot of crossover with the US/Canada). That'd be helpful.
There's room for improvement everywhere, but influencers need to understand the great responsibility they have.
I slid out turning left at a stop light(maybe 15 mph). Slid in the ground for maybe 5-10 feet. Was fully geared up in a Revit trench jacket, Rst ambush textile pants, and Cortech scratch v3 gloves. Besides some slight knee pain that subsides after a couple hours no injuries at all. With out gear certainly would have at least a bone bruise or worse. No reason to skip gear because it could be better.