NO FOOTER OR REBAR UNDER BASEMENT???
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- Опубліковано 29 лис 2023
- These precast Walls by Superior walls foundations are not set on a concrete footer as a traditional poured foundation or a concrete block foundation or a ICF foundation would be. They are just set on a stone pad. They use a real small stone that does not pack it is self consolidating type of stone. These walls are not a new idea either they have been around our area for quite a few years and the system seems to work with just the stone under the wall and no footer. My question would be is why do these walls not need a footer but other poured walls that should be stronger need a concrete footer with rebar. What makes this pass code? Should I be able to use stone footings on other type of foundations and if not why? I have always wondered how they get away with the no footer thing. Other than that this is not a bad foundation option because it is more cost effective than other options like ICF and solid poured walls. Let me know what you guys think.
My gut instinct is when I see a structure that has to rely on caulking for water ingress control, I see a red flag. If the guy caulking is having a bad day, then down the road there can be issues. They bolt these walls together with caulk when I think a gasket would be a better and more permanent solution. Caulk probably makes for tighter tolerances when tightening the panels together but I still feel a gasket would be better. As for the panels sitting on pea gravel and not a foundation, the mass of the structure basically floats on the underlying ground and if there are variations in the soil, the structure can settle irregularly and stress the structure, like the Millennium Tower in San Francisco leading to cracks in the basement walls. As you noted seeing in the past these kind of walls developing cracks.
As for the concrete work you and the guys did on this project, it looks like a work of art. Great job!
This is a great system. 40+ years ago I helped a friend build a house for his wife’s cousin. They worked great and are still holding up well. Dead level too. When we got to kitchen cabinets we didn’t have to shim a single one because we started so great from the onset. They’re greatest selling point is the ease in finishing a basement into extra living space. Pre drilled for wire and tubing. Easy to add insulation also. Bonus feature- with all the stone they are always dry and radon free.
Years ago This Old House did a project with superior walls. I think for peace of mind I would want footers under them. You only need labor and a crane to install. Look at what you guys go through to get around the whole property to do concrete work. The precast walls also make finishing basement easier. Keep up the good work. Hi Biscuit.
Unbelievable 18 years ago they were building those walls in Appleton Wisconsin also I've seen a few done that way around here just doesn't seem right not to have a footer underneath it
will absolutely shift/sink over time. simple physics of point loads
As a retired certified building inspector think about this: you pour a footer on compacted or undisturbed earth or stone then pour a wall or lay block on top. The principle is the same because it works based upon the load being spread over an area. There is no difference in the pressure loading on the ground. The systems have been through extensive testing to verify their claims. Like all "new" technology there is resistance from those that are used to doing things "the way we have always done it". Another point about the joints in this foundation: for those that are concerned about leaks, these walls need to be damp proofed before backfilling just like any other "conventional". This system like any other foundations is only as good as the installers doing the work. And yes, I have seen and inspected these systems for compliance with the installation instructions from the manufacturer, the key to these working as intended.
Why can't we pour a solid wall or ICF on a stone footer then? These are a continuous wall pour with tons of rebar and no bolt together seams. Seems the poured walls are way stronger? no?
Because they haven't been tested to prove it works that way.@@bondobuilt386
@@bondobuilt386 Maybe they think the caulked joints provide a bit of flexibility, enough to avoid cracking?
My experience with Superior walls was positive. The caulk is actually a butane adhesive, and the concrete is 5000 psi . The grade and stone base is very important to achieve a long lasting foundation.
Upper lower michigan, basement built that way using treated lumber. 2x6 walls with 2x8 trested footing. Plywood sheathing. Mostly in well Drained soil conditions . Been standing well over 20 years
Wish I was as calm as bondo when things go south. Love that dog.
i built my above ground house with superior walls 8 years ago , walls up in one day, worked out great for me 😃🥰
Some years ago there was push to build foundations & basements using treated lumber. These treated wood stud walls were set up directly over crushed stone 'footer' (no concrete). The theory is that a well drained stone footer of sufficient depth and compaction, will not settle or frost heave. Maybe Superior walls tore a page from the wood foundation design book, I personally would be ok with it. Not too sure about going with treated wood, although wood foundations are still code compliant in many/most places.
Yup, that's what I was going to say...AWWF...All Weather Wood Foundation. there's manuals, specs, so forth.
Facinating ---
as ever, so much fun to be a vicarious witness, to a solution oriented (wild) expedition.
Such a GREAT CREW! Kudos!
Gotta be careful not to backfill until the floor framing is in. My buddy just made that mistake first time using that system. The basement wall buckled.
Im familiar with the Superior wall system in that ive seen them installed back when i lived in Pa.
Mostly they were used with modular built houses sitting on them.
Although the house on the one in your video appears to be a conventionally built house.
There were a few townships that wouldnt permit them due to code violations.
There was a very deep fill in that garage Bondo, how did they handle that?
I would have built lots of block piers to support the slab and backfilled it with stone well compacted.
I agree with your opinion of the Superior walls, but then im not aware of them failing either.
Id personally rather a 12” block wall with durawall every other coarse and rebar placed in every cavity, bond beam coarse on top with rebar then all filled with vibrated pea gravel concrete.
We still have a hunting camp in N C Pa.
The boys are there now for the deer season, but i no longer make the trip.
I have a Brentwood Wheelbarrow twin wheel 8 cu.ft HDPE that I purchase years ago and before I assembled it I brought all the steel parts up to LineX and had them spray all the metal parts with their original formula bedliner and they are as good today as the day I picked them up, they will never rust. So essentially the wheelbarrow will last forever. It is the most rugged, highest quality, most stable wheelbarrow I have ever owned.
Not a fan of precast, I prefer ICFs with walls that are a single pour for strength in hurricanes and tornadoes. Unfortunately, my current house has block walls but the house was built by a high quality builder so every cavity down through the walls was filled with concrete and rebar. I actually went up in the attic to be sure of this when I toured the home with my realtor, she must have thought I was nuts.
Really like them. We did my brothers house twenty years ago 10' tall . They went in quick the 5000 psi is water "proof" but we sealed it anyway. I wanted to use them for a house I was going to build for myself above ground I was going for a spanish hacienda look and thought they would be great.
This was 14 years ago by then the price had really went up. I think I figured footers, and 2x6 wall with OSB and insulation was going to be around $8 plf me doing the work they bid me around $25 I think it might have been that standing seam roofer that gave you that crazy bid's brother lol.
After my pole barn floor was poured and troweled my contractor sprayed on cure-n-seal just like you're doing. The first winter (Western NY) of parking cars on it, the coating lifted right up and flaked off. The next summer I water blasted all the loose stuff off, let it thoroughly dry and coated it again. The second winter it did exactly the same thing. I'm now not a fan at all of cure-n-seal... Dunno what else I can do now that the whole floor has a few coats of that stuff on it.
Epoxy
90% of the houses here in the Netherlands use premade walls, we slam concrete foundation pillars in the ground on stress points, and lay a premade concrete floor on that and build up from there with more premade walls and stuff :D its like giant lego! Nearly no wood is being used except in old houses.
I've seen the interlocking wood/styrofoam from back in the 80's but not this particular product. It looks like it will work. Around here there are builders standing framed plywood panels on pea gravel for foundations. I don't see much difference and I doubt the gravel will ever settle or move. So it looks good to me.
I don't have precast walls but my dad and I both have wood basements sitting on pea gravel with no footer and if it's done right I think it's better as far as insulating and waterproofing. After my dad's house was 30 years old he put an addition on and the basement walls looked like brand new. We are located in Minnesota so probably similar climate to New York.
The Key is "if it's done right"....
@@Rick-tb4so it's a rare thing these days isn't it...
My cousin had Superior Walls for his basement 40 years ago. No problem. I understand they do above grade walls now. And I think I recognize that house. Nine Mile Pt. Rd. ?
I'm from st lawrence county a couple hours above you. We do similar work and go as far as watertown sometimes. I was told the precast companies have an engineer that says it's ok to have no footing. If the engineer signs off then that's all it takes. We do poured walls with symonds panels and icf walls. We obviously can't compete with precast either. We've done additions on 2 or 3 of these precast walls and have found they don't stay level after a few years. They settle into the stone. An inch or so on a 30 foot gable side.
Another issue I see is them calling for hockey puck style center piers for the jackposts. It looked like I saw some in yours before you poured the basement floor. The last ones I saw were 4 inches thick precast piers and could be carried down into the basement by 1 man. Basically a bag of sakrete. We're always pouring at least a 2x2x1 solid pier with bar or a full 24 inch wide full length center footing. The same concept with engineering applies. So I don't know if we're overbuilding based on the engineering or if they're engineer is under doing it. But because of these differences we are thousands of $ apart on price. Fortunately most people around here want a solid wall of some sort.
Looks really good.
As a Code Official I have seen many homes using Superior Wall construction and in 27 years I have never received any complaints or failures other than damage in shipping when delivered to the site.
I have seen a couple things. One being a 1-1/2" bow in a gable end of a house basement wall. I think that was on the excavator using sight soil with clay to back fill. The other being a leak at one of the caulking joints but that was 20 years later and the gutters were not working and once they were fixed the lek went away. Also a few cracks at doorways and windows. But not structural in nature just hailing cracks. But we all know basements crack.
Only Pre-Cast walls we have here in Oklahoma that i ever see is commercial structures . Just about everything here is stick built . I have seen some ICF but not much but i think its climate related . Doesnt generally get that cold here ( Not many Houses here have Basements)
Thinking that perhaps it's allowed to be footer less because "engineered product." Some engineer somewhere did the maths and signed off that these walls, installed on a certain subgrade base of rock with a poured basement pad can withstand the weight of the house without sinking too much.
Up where I live in the frozen north, ICF forms are the way to go. Footer below frost line, and a solid wall of insulated concrete.
What cure and seal product allows you to spray it the next day? I've always seen immediately after finishing, or wait 28 days.
Great video we do these foundation in Michigan keep up the good work
do you always cut the joints after its set the next day or the same day its poured? The only way to make this video better was seeing a timelapse of the first pour from the top of the wall
Superior Walls has a facility in my town in southern New Jersey. It’s a very big and lucrative business. That’s all I know about them.
thanks.
One thing my dad told me as a younger guy was to ever depend upon caulking to keep water out as it will eventually dry out and fail !
I have to agree.
How big is the pad at the base of the wall? Is the stone below it, leveled and compacted? Who is responsible for setting them, the contractor or superior walls? Do they guarantee it?
They’ve been used in Jersey for 30 years at least. No problems that I know of, but if I’d use Nudura. Ron….. you & the Boyz had a good save on that garage floor. Was that a 2nd truck or a 2nd driver that saved the load? Thanks Bud.
Thanks we used the same truck of mud they just sent a new driver to the job that knew how to get the slump what we needed. This driver just was not ready to go on his own yet. Yes we almost rejected it and had to take out what we put in.
This Old House did a remodel of a very big house where they installed a new cellar between the original house and a very big barn. Concrete panels on gravel and then a poured floor. Maybe 10 years ago?
It was for a commercial. Got paid to sell a product.
They use them in the Eastern part of the USA and mostly east of the Mississippi River.
ANOTHER AWESOME JOB.
Bondo, which do you think is better. A center drain or grade out the doors?
Those would never fly out here in CA. in earthquake country. No holdowns, and what kind of shear value do the walls have? Especially large openings like the garage door area?
Never seen any wall set up like that in Australia, don't think any local Councils would pass it for inspection.
My dad and I used my build as a test monkey for several things. 1 was superior walls. We did this back in summer of 2001 and my area in PA had a series of 4 to 5.5 earthquakes. The results were as follows. On the north west side we had settling from earth shakers of 1 inch. The Iron stone is farther from the surface compared to the south east side. The sealant has not leaked at all even with the foundation movement. I would say it was a successful install as we're the 30 other houses after our test build at my place. It really is a better way to do a foundation.
Built 2 houses with those walls. First one was not real good, as the wall was set crooked, and the building was panelized, so assembly problems just multiplied. It was about 20 years ago. 2nd building went really well. Liked the walls for speed and ease of finish. However, icf is better in my opinion.
That concrete was almost as dry as my ex's sense of humor 😮
LOL the driver couldn't get it how we needed it.
lmfao
@@bondobuilt386 Really afraid to add too much water for some reason?
Do the precast walls count AS being a footer ? These cast walls likely have rebar within, but the attachment points might give pause.... that corner joint looked a little sloppy.... but maybe tolerances allow for that... just looks odd.
Never seen precast used on such a small scale, just on commercial buildings. I do not see the advantage, maybe homeowner saw it on a tv show.
Looks like a conveyer would be handy to get that excess stone out. But only if you already owned a set of them. Also great for projects where your gravel pile can not be near enough to where the material needs to go... another interesting video.
According to their site there are rebars
Great job brother. We have them walls in New Jersey they are terrible. 👍🏻🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
They use them here in West Michigan.
love your work. wish I could join you
What was that you spray on the concrete and why
I like the ICF walls better. More insulation. No caulked gaps. Stronger footing.
I would be willing to wait for weather conditions, and pay extra.
I require a strong foundation in all areas of my life.
The wall is the footer. Why would it be beneficial to put concrete under concrete? That's a very solid piece of engineering!
Not at all familiar with the precast wall product, but it seems having the right soil conditions would be paramount.
Should charge a moving fee for the stone!
` So the cement was lacking water, why not just add some ? What am I missing ?
I built a house 25years ago with superior walls, and recently had a chance to see it again
It was still perfect
I’m a huge fan of superior walls
I was told to backfill after the 1st floor deck was on
What geographic area (weather conditions) ?
Do you remember soil conditions? How about outside appearance as I'm NOT sold on this one? I'm thinking about using them in near future, that's why all the ?s thanks in advance John
@@johnryan8859 north easy
Sandy soil
It had a few hair like cracks,
I retired from the Army National Guard. I wrapped up my career with a civil engineering unit so we were comprised of masons, carpenters, electricians plumbers and we had an earthmoving section as well. We were pouring a concrete slab one weekend and we had some excess material when we were done. My buddy came up with the fantastic idea of pouring the excess on a 4 by 8 sheet of 1/2” plywood. As it turned out it was the perfect amount of material to create quite the impressive male package!!! So that’s exactly what we did!!! You may be asking yourself what we did with our little art piece…. Well one of our section leaders was out of town so we loaded Richard up in the back of a Ford F-250, drove into town and leaned our modern art masterpiece up against a large tree in his front yard where his whole neighborhood could enjoy our creation!!! 😂
No on Superior. Yes on the videos.Thanks.
I can see why a developer would use Superior Walls. It reduces labor costs and time. Using less concrete in a stud wall design wrapped in rigid foam and metal stud shell on the inside. Looks like the design relies on concrete floor and floor joists to remain rigid.
No sump pit?
I first saw a version of that style foundation here on youtube 12-15 years ago and it was a wider product without the foam and the ribs were poured in instead of studded. It must work well in your area because of all the rock and soil structure but It would be no bueno around here. Even watching the trucks run out on the dirt in your videos makes me cringe:-) Although they say no footing required there shouldn't be any reason it couldn't be set on a footing, it seems like a great product that could have great potential for many projects. If lack of footing is keeping people on the fence then just put a footing there. Problem solved :-)
Those "Foundation" Walls? I mean... What could go wrong?...
1) The house will settle over time. Needs a compacted Layer of Stone or a simple Footer.
2) The Joints will leak. The Joints need Another Layer / Cap over each Joint on the Outside to preserve the Initial Joint, and if they want it flush, they just need to recess where the Outside Cap will be so it will end up flush. But those Joints will fail at some point. Because of the Solvent, causes shrinkage, but if that joint caulk was covered, that Joint would be greatly preserved.
What is the difference between footers and footings?
No difference. Footer is slang for footing.
NICE
Looks fast… but I’m thinking ICF is better if you do it Bondo.
Hope the builder can keep the silt out of that fine stone or the drain will fail
You can have that pre cast shit. We always used poured walls here in Wisconsin
Did you charge extra??
My in laws had superior walls installed on their house. Wall caulking is guaranteed for 10 years to be leak free. Nice 1/2 inch crack running through their basement after one year. Of course the house is settling with it and cracking the sheetrock. Horrible design with no footer. A simple footer would have prevented that.
How good was the excavation prepared for this system. Did the contractor compact the area adequately or just dig it and say ‘looks good to me’
You lose
Tim I have not had that experience. Where was this crack? Wall or seam? Sounds like a bad cast if on the wall. Though after over 30 installs I would say things like poor compaction and drainage could be other issues. We always put in double drains (1 outside perimeter about 1 foot from wall and 1 inside about 2.5 feet from outside drain to a sump. We also went 2 feet up wall base with gravel and put geo textile over stone.
@@rsecord Sorry, I did not specify that the crack was in the floor and not only separating but lifting maybe 1/4 inch on one side. It is from side wall to side wall. That leads me to believe that it is the walls that are moving and not just something under ground heaving up.
the house next to my house has superior walls it is two years old looks ok we are in new jersey
Good product less than optimum install, this product installed on grade beams or pilings is excellant otherwise I take a pass. Surprised building code in your area allows any occupied structure to be erected/permited w/o proper foundation. Ray Stormont
Big Biscuit is an animal worker 👍👍👍
The purpose of a well-constructed concrete footer with embedded rebar on "virgin" (undisturbed) soil (or compacted sand) is to distribute the load of the concrete wall and house structure EVENLY. Think about the PSI loading of a 10" thick wall on the soil WITHOUT a footer vs the PSI load of a 10" wall sitting on a 24" wide footer which is sitting on the soil. And pea gravel, IMO, is NOT the stone to used as a foundation material. It is small, round and doesn't compact well. It moves around a lot. It DOES drain well and is used extensively for backfill, french drains or other non-load bearing applications. I don't know how thick a layer of pea gravel is used under these Superior walls but if it is relatively thin just to level the area, it'll probably be ok. Just my opinion but I know of NO jurisdiction in my area that would allow a wall to sit on stone without a homogenous concrete footer.
Thanks and I agree that a footer is much better. The stone under these is like 2 feet deep. I think an ICF foundation or poured wall is much better.
@@bondobuilt386Here in Michigan a footer of "gravel" with a wood sill that the wall rests on is allowable by code. But I know of no jurisdiction that would allow it, nor any builder or masonry contractor that would do it. That doesn't mean there aren't places where people do it here. As for being 2 feet of pea gravel under the wall, yikes! I suspect the wall could work its way down into it. I once left a cinder block on top of a small pile of pea gravel and some time later (six months? Year?) it had moved an inch or so down into the pile solely due to its weight.
not me. monolithic or block for me
I guess it's because I'm not an engineer... or a physicist... or whatever... but it seems very strange that Superior Walls are okay without a footer or rebar or insulation under the concrete floor. I wonder how that works? ... and then it was surprising to see that they went from the Superior Walls (steel? Aluminum?) in the basement to stick built/wood walls on that first floor. I guess I'm going to have to see if Superior Walls has a YT channel or something where they explain it all.
What does the footer stand upon? If these walls are going below the frost line, and on a proper bed..... are they not a footer? I am asking, because " dammit Jim, I am a locksmith, not an engineer"
@@citylockapolytechnikeyllcc7936 - You know I went to the UA-cam site and watched a few uploads... but they really don't explain how they can get away with resting these panels on a bed of stone below the frost line. I'd imagine they'd at least have to get down to undisturbed earth or bedrock or something. I guess it's because the whole footprint is pretty much locked together so that it can't "settle" unless the whole thing settles. I just wish they'd explain it better.
32 👍's up BB thank you for sharing 😅
Used Superior walls on our house. Been 15 years with no problems whatsoever.
I thought you meant your worker was your delemma! Lol
I'm an old dude, but i'd like to work on a few jobs with you guys. Take my shirt off, get a tan, and float some concrete.
When you think a but it what does a house weigh ? 20 ton on the footing that's what holds up the house from sinking and then caving in on a basement , on one level house it would just sink and be up and down on the roof line and walls . Just thinking . Common sense .
I have never seen that type of wall before. I definitely would not install that wall on a project.
I’m suspicious about the system never saw anything like that.
There’s many Amazon fulfillment built around my area that have no foundation the walls are precast concrete about 7 stories tall bolted together on the site and the floor is poured and finished several hundred feet of walls are bolted together some building’s are 8-10 football fields long and 2-3 football fields wide.
I’m sure there’s a lot of money being exchanged and speed of construction is important only time will tell how long these buildings will stand. I live in a house built around 1890 in Jersey City the house is solid brick built on a footing triple brick foundation walls and double brick walls with a coping made from clay tile.
No bolts or precast sections at the time it must have been expensive to build and required the work of several masons and carpenters. Interior walls are lath and plaster the floors are made of oak over rough cut 4x8 beams let into pockets in the brick walls. This house has stood up to the elements for a century and will be standing at least another hundred years. I’m not sure the same will be true about the new fulfillment center type building’s.
They need to raise the charge hopper when they discharge, it will help the main chute not to get plugged, even when the slump is to stiff, the charge hopper extends into the barrel, and holds the concrete in place especially when it’s to stiff. Saves your guys a lot of tough work pulling that stiff stuff down, driver should have folded the chute partially, even with the extension chute, it will fold, and dropped the angle down to get the stiff stuff to slide so you could get it out easier, I know he’s new, someone didn’t train him very well.
Superior walls aren't allowed in NY impretty sure alo
So you forgot too pull wire
Plus side is i bet those walls are pre engineered and extremely fast to set up, That said id rather have a real footer with a block, icf, or poured foundation. I dont know how they get away with no footer, seems batshit to me.
To the new driver it comes with.time
Yes he poured a few for us after this one and he did a good job. He just got thrown out a little early I think or left the plant way too dry.
No footer... guaranteed crack.
My sons stacked blocks cracked after house settled. Told him it would. When he didn't do the rebar. Its his house anyway.
First earth quake and these foundations are toast
Great slab of 18 yds, and no dog paw prints!
this basement wall system looks like a homeowner's nightmare-to-follow. I bet attorneys look for these builds to get their kids through college, or 2nd boat.
Seems to me like those walls wouldnt last
Figure with all the gravel u lads had to shovel out that window it would've had better drainage 😅
Footings? I remember a fad of plywood foundations
I guess they do work if done proper but not this guy. LOL wood should be above ground and a structure should be built to last a minimum of 100 years.
Not a fan of those walls. I get it's faster and cheaper (how much cheaper though?) but, that's a bad path for water to flow under the wall and eventually under your floors ! Even with drainage, i don't like the idea of putting it on just stone....
I live in New York state some townships don't even allow them
its a hot load probably
1:26 too bad you don't have a conveyor to deal with excess rock.
I’m no expert on this stuff but I have a bad feeling about that system. I would not use it.
😂 😂 😂 Pork chop
Who's sweaty no shirt guy?? Biscuits you call him??
Footings rule. thousands of years building expertise says so. Prove me wrong.
I'm guessing it is just a matter of time until this system will be banned when it does not stand the test of time.
lawsuits incoming superior walls.
don't bash the NEW walls cuz they gonna make you the big bucks in a few years! haha or, if ya really like them, then lower yer wages to compete with junk. save $40k & get a HUGE $40k++headache later. haha
I don't see anything superior about those walls and especially no footer.