Ill be brutally honest, I love the setting of 40k, but after playing so many other games (bolt action, one page rules, some Napoleon based games, some other cooperative ones) when I finally got to try 40k it just felt so bloated and dated. Somehow lacking complexity, while also having way to much to remember. I dont think its hard to make a wargame better then 40k in any regard, let alone competitively
I'm very much a casual who only plays with friends and I find 40k to be the least fun mechanically of the systems we play. I haven't tried 10th yet, but I didn't enjoy 9th and 10th doesn't look to be much better from what I've seen.
@@TheKenthor They've added too many special rules to where the game play is slowed down because everyone needs to check rules. Constant point changes and the end of this summer, another rule update for all the armies means people have great difficulties getting used to their armies as they keep changing. People get frustrated due to the changes and the little mistakes that get made because of the changes they forgot about. I'm primarily a historical gamer. Rules don't change unless you change rule sets. My Napoleonic armies are the same today as they were 30 years ago. Sure, I can buy nicer figures now but that's just an aesthetic feature and not because units were rewritten. I suspect Bolt Action changing with a new 3rd edition is going down the GW path, albeit a bit more slowly.
gw games were never good games. lore, setting, style, miniatures, and finally some rules to play and drive the hobby, all together formed warhammer. interested in playing games, go play video games, interested in building miniatures, go build real model kits, interested in painting, go paint reasonable stuff, the miniature wargaming hobby does all but shit, with lots of rpg on top. for every aspect of the hobby theres anything that does it better, you need to like more than one thing and it starts to get even with other stuff. but if you like the whole hobby, or even just most of it, you are into it.
Not to yuck anyone’s yum however I feel like 10th ed of 40k lost something from prior editions, and old world just seems to capture a bit of the old magic that has kept me in this hobby for so long.
Yes exactly. 10th Ed and 3rd Ed AOS feels like a watered down version of the old school games we used to enjoy. Everything is so bland and special rules aren’t special anymore, just the same thing everyone has with a different code name
surprise, thats warhammer. no gw game is warhammer any more, old world is. old world isnt good as a game, it isnt good for lore, it isnt even good in being warhammer, but its the best warhammer game and lore available.
I feel exactly the same way. 😔 I full got in on the hype for 10th ed last summer, but it's just such a departure. Last Friday, however, I had my first ever WHFB game in the form of The Old World, and it was so much fun! 💜 It got me fondly thinking back to where this hobby all started for me; Warhammer 40k 5th ed.
@@dr3dg352 that is almost the same path as me except the players I played with fell out the hobby while keeping there models so maybe able to get a game once a blue moon
@@Thefluxtion Okay, how it went: well my opponent had Lizardmen and he had a Bastilodon and a Stegodon who kept shooting magic missiles. That destroyed my troops. They said the outcome was pretty much predetermined, but also that if I had played against either of the other guys there who had Orcs and Ogers I definately would have won. But anyway, the objective was to learn the game and in that respect it was succesful.
Old Word/fantasy requires that you have some grasp on stratergy. 40k requires you to know ALL the rules and play math-hammer. Old world/fantasy has been, and will continue to be a better stratergy game and therefore a better competative game, since 8th ed 40k. Because what side you attack an enemy from matters. Meaning that there is more need to think strategicaly, to consider board controll and more. Also units that loose morale flee, and sometimes reform, or flee off the board. they don't just dissapear into thin air.
fantasy always had general rules, aplicable for every faction and unit. 40k went so far off of this idea that people really complained about units having so many "keywords" or "special rules" in old world, not getting that their made-for-kids 40k and aos "datasheets" or other fancy words contain more rules and need more reading and discussion during games. even mtg got standardized special rules and crafted them into single words on their cards, which everyone knows. modern gw kids can learn this too. a game cant be tactical if you dont know what your opponent is capable of, think about chess...
@darioscomicschool1111 Honestly, fantasy miniatures are the best to collect for long-term wargaming aside from historical like your bolt action stuff. Definitely do NOT sell your WHFB models. You can use them in everything from the Old World and other rank and flanks like Kings of War. RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, skirmish games like Mordheim (the best GW game) and Frostgrave, etc. If anything, you should sell your 40k stuff or use it for the Horus heresy. If you're a Xenos player like me, then wait for the day a real threat to 40k appears in wargaming. Not a question of if, but when.
@@RubyRingofJamesBrown Ok Brother I keep all of my Fantasy Bretonians and my High Elves. The Swordmasters of Hoeth will be Fielded side by side with the White Lions and the White Lion Chariot. Mordheim I wanted to play for a Loooong Time. Yeah I play Deathwatch in 40k. I really wanted to get me some Xenos, But I wanted to keep my First Army Small and Cheap. Not Sure something could Replace 40k. Its very popular. I kinda like it, but I am more a Fantasy and WW2 Guy. And also the Constant rerolls and Rules updates from GW do not help my 40k Experience. Thanks for the Response!
Totally agree. Being a WHF- and 40k-player for 30 years now, I miss the days of 4th, 5th and 6th editions of 40K. 40k is not a pure miniature game anymore. To much bookkeeping of what does what and, like you said, to many dice. Even in 10th... TOW is indeed much more streamlined and IMO focusses more on the essence of a miniature game, which is playing with the miniatures instead of checking unit rules combo-ing with other unit rules, compared to your opponents unit-rules. Nice spot-on video!
Old world is like OPRs: super simple base profiles, a lot of flavorful special rules. Together with the tons of negative design space, this makes playing with or against every army very different. Chaos, Dark Eleves or Dwarfs do not have basically anything in common within their gameplans. 40k 10th is the opposite: extremely complex profiles, tons of weapons... but every army feels the same. They just get their form of sustained hits or +1 to hit. All armies have horde units, elite units, tanks and melee specialists. The ones that don't are regarded as useless (see tyranids without antitank). You can tell where the good rulewriters are in GW.
Why is everything always framed like this. Plastic dudes on a table. Just have friends with your buddy. The past few years are starting to look like how mtg got and why I left that.
I enjoy it more because the rules don't change between every game I get to play. My 40k orks list got invalidated before it ever hit the field. 40k is just feels bad all over.
I think another reason why old world is quicker is that it doesn't have an exaggerated shooting phase. Sure there is magic, but it isn't like back in the early days of fantasy. So there is mainly just melee and a bit of shooting and magic. With 40k it's both. And even if there are two shooty armies, pure ranged combat offer a lot more possibilities, and thus makes it less likely that two armies will just run straight towards each other and clash in the middle, forcing more maneuvers, especially with how there's more/longer movement. Not that I think it's a bad thing. I like the two games being different. It's just hard to balance it out.
7:15 see you are confusing the cause and effect. The effect is that all the vehicles have lots of dakka. The cause was that the game allowed vehicles to shoot all there guns. that was not the case in older editions. the vehcicles got more dakka as they adapted to the new base rules.
I was a hardcore fantasy player for many years. By 2006 they had screwed up the game so bad I just had to sell it all off and escape. At this point, I don't believe I could get back into "Old World" because I don't trust GW not to end it again at some point or not to have the equivalent to Codex Creep. They had Army Books that were progressively getting worse. They had also got rid of some armies (Dogs of War, Chaos Dwarves) and refused to support them. They've burned those bridges in my mind and like Epic 40k or Necromunda, they got rid of it once and brought it back, why wouldn't they do it again?
by selling all your stuff you were mostly into the game, the hobby is more than this, and gaming is a rather small part for most people. start to have fun with crafting models and diving into the lore, gw is really bad with making games (they got bad in everything else rather recently too), but enjoying your crafts and fielding your accomplishments is the real hobby after all.
As a Dogs of War player I feel the pain of being discarded. Thank God for the Warhammer Armies Project as he allowed me to play the army in 7th and 8th edition.
I don’t think you have to worry about the old world being blown up this time around. I honestly like the place that the old world is in. It isn’t one of GWs main games anymore. It’s debatable if it’s even number 3. Maybe time will tell but the good thing about it is that they’ve released the rules and it probably won’t be messed with too much in the near future or even the distant future. Maybe some errata here and there but it’s released and they are on to 40K and the new aos. Plus there are so many good 3rd party models out there for fantasy that you can build an army for so much cheaper.
One thing about 40k that i've found is the sheer quantity of dice rolling that you should do that could be meaningful. I.E. the repulsor executioner is a tank that has the following profile that can be sustained lethal 5's. So it's all worth rolling. 2 Heavy laser Destroyer shots 12 Heavy Onslaught Gatling cannon shots 1d3 Icarus Rocket pod Shots 3 (or 6 if in 18 inch ironhail heavy stubber shots 10 Defensive Array Shots 3 Heavy boilter shots with sustained twin linked 3 Heavy icarus Heavy stubber shots - Anti fly 4+ rapid fire 3, and twin linked. Some of this is re-rolling, some of it isn't. It's all different strengths, all different AP's and all different damage... If it's oath of momented, it's ALL rerolling to hit, and I do mean if it's a 5/6 you're rerolling all of it to fish for that sustained lethals... RIIIIGHT so i've got 33 shots with rapid for on 2 profiles for an additional 6, with sustained lethal 5's on all of it. Re-rolling al non 5/6's getting something like 40% extra shots that are all auto wounding with different profiles against my opponents stuff with different toughness profiles. AHRHGHGHGH. I am FAST at rolling dice, and often to the detriment of my opponent not knowing wtf is going on and it still takes 2 minutes to shoot all this shit. Not to mention there is so much information here to remember that it's really challenging to remember the profile of this. This is 220 points, this is 10% of your army and it takes 2 minutes to shoot by itself assuming no interaction from your opponent & your going FAST...
6th edition had flawed too, where one side could just dominate the magic phase similar to TOW. I think WAP had the best magic phase as all wizard levels where useful.
@@cavemansam8400 Warhammer Armies Project. It 8th magic phase with some changes below Level 1 and 2 get +1 to cast and dispel. Level 3 and 4 get +2 to cast and dispel. You get the signature spell plus 1 spell for each level. You pick your spells but a level 1 can only pick from the first 3, this increase by 1 per level. (example a level 3 pick 3 spells from the first 5 spells in the lore.)
@@grlmgor I got pissed off with 8ths blatant attempt to make you buy lots of models so I had bailed by then. Funnily enough all of the changes you say you like actually seem like they come from 6th! - How did magic work in 8th?
@@cavemansam8400 Winds of magic is where you roll 2D6 add them up and that your power pool. While the highest dice is the dispel pool. Also you can channel extra dice by rolling a dice per wizard level on a roll of a 6 you get an extra dice to your pool.
Play a two day event of 9th age, team style , was the best fun i ever had , community was so friendly and teaching , even its was full of high skilled veteran player After that high skilled and balanced game Came back to play 10th is weird....
I don't play old world. I kinda feel that 40k is kind of a shit game with how constantly it changes. Gw is basically pulling playground rules where they're constant 1 uping each other.
GW was doing that decades ago too. They keep messing with the rules to sell new army books, slowly ruin the game and then claim a reset with a new edition. Well, it works. Older players see through this scheme and move on.
@@ColonelHoganStalag13 a stagnant game isnt fun, if you put all your hobby effort into gaming. gaming is a huge market, modeling and painting a very small, more gamers are more profit i guess.
10th is becoming the beast 9th was near the end. Extreme lethality, turn one charges, just crazy combos that ruin everything. Old world even the magic seems reasonable. I might consider doing 3rd edition 40k again. One page rules didnt have enough granuality
@@marcusflutist1230 isnt that steep, but 200+ points in a wizard is worth way more than in a unit. most spells are meh, some are quite good, and just a few are bonkers. with removing every fun they also removed most player based rules abuse, despite we are just into the experiments of movement spells...
Havent played 40k since mid 8th ed. I didnt mind the changes at first but later down the road with to many books and power creep I was a "No Thanks!" player. Im a long time warhammer player and loved specialists games ect. When Fantasy died it was very hard breaking for me since i was traveling tournament player during 6th,7th and 8th. Honestly 40k is way to tedious with all theses little here and there rules and but TOW really brought back the comeback for me and other veteran players. However i wish GW didnt make Old World so scarce to find. Ita for reall!
It’s the nostalgia hit for me. I’ve actually packed up my 40K stuff as most of my friends have switched to old world. I enjoy them not really messing with it. I’m a filthy casual anyway
I wouldn't really say 10th is any different to 8th or 9th when it comes to set-up or the complexity of having to explain what your army does. I think the thing about games taking ages is just simply because of how low GW have made average points costs. Even for my Aeldari, who have had several major points increases in 10th, most of the lists I make for them nowadays are still 2500-2700 points in 9th values. Most other armies are in the same boat or go even larger; people bring up Votann and Admech a lot but Tau lists are sometimes pushing 3.8k points if they were 9th ones.
It's almost like the took a complex game of 40k from pre 7th and simplified it so much that it's less tactical and more buy the best unit multiple times.
sadly yes, but gw didnt know which unit will be best. they messed up the rules so badly that most factions dont even use their characteristic units. you will not see any warriors of chaos in a competitive warriors of chaos army.
@@SteelStorm33 Warriors of Chaos are a great unit as their heavy infantry. So a small unit of 4 by 4 with access to command unit to get full combat resolution. Now combined with a Giant, Chariot, Dragon Ogre, Troll, Chosen or Forsaken and good luck winning that combat.
That's true, but those few models are often also more expensive. On top of that it makes it closer to Age of Sigmar in that the focus is less on armies as such but instead you get a strange circus train of steam tanks, monsters and powerful lords on huge showcase beasts without the base (infantry) to make it feel like an army. To me that always feels like a sandwich which transforms into a big piece of ham on a plate, a big tomato and some breadcrumbs sprinkled on top. :)
All they have to do is let the unit fight into a challenge if one unit is on its last model. Same challenge rules as 30k and the game becomes over the top amazing.
40k is a terrible competitive game it was never meant to be a competitive game, 3:23 standard terrain layouts are a terrible thing, that made a lot of wargamers expect and accept low effort looking tables at events they are papering over the cracks of how poor the game system is for a competitive game. Years back an event had shocking looking L shaped ruins on every table and it was massive news about how terrible it was and people wanting their money back as this is not the standard of table people should expect at an event..... now its not only accepted but expected at events. 40k community really need to stop with the competitive focus.
My friend Liz let me use her dark elves for my first ever game, and it was so fun! 😍 Can't wait to start collecting my own dark elf army for The Old World. 💜
I’ve been away from the game for a couple of editions. I recently came back and split the leviathan set with a friend. I was surprised how much the game has changed. I don’t know if it’s good or bad on the main but for me it’s not really my cup of tea. I was around gaming when warmachine/hordes was really big and it seems to me that 40K has turned into a hybrid of 40K and warmachine. It’s tailored to the competitive scene. I get it, those people make content, they are vocal, they make up a lot of sales chasing the meta. But it has just went way to tedious for me. Too much to remember and track. If that’s the direction GW wants to go then I am happy playing old world.
I would argue that the more players a system has, the more sweaty it gets. Tougher players want tougher rules that are more waterproof. That's actually applicable to any hobby, at some time there is a tipping point where it pulled the wrong people which drives the older more casual people away and those people force the rules to change. I experienced that with Jugger, it was so nice and casual, now it's just stressful and im no longer interested.
no, everyone wants waterproof rules, all the time, this is more important by playing with foreigners than locals. you need standardized rules for playing to ensure noone complains and everyone knows whats going on. gw rules are poorly written and unclear, on top every single unit has their own rules, naming conventions and attacks, despite being exactly the same as multiple other units, but casuals cant remember even the smallest set of rules aparently. we just discuss if a baneblade cannon has for sure the same profile as a stormhammer cannon, or forget that the malcador battlecannon has a different profile than the lemon russ battlecannon... not the old are casual, the new are the casuals which hurt the game. veterans go to the less casual games and away from 4+k and age of kindergarten. old world got many veterans back, dusting of armies older than most 40k players, they have tons of fun with the game and their uh-so-old miniatures, while casual gamers complain every single moment about old miniature ranges and so time consuming list building.
Competitive is fine, but there is already problem with variety of army lists. my recent tournament, both VC players have the same list 2 Dragons and 2 Terrorgheist, also both TK players 2 Dragons and 1-2 Necrosphinx. O&G, what Orcs? I have 3 battle against the and it was only Night Goblins and fanatics. For now core units are sometimes considered tax to pay in order to get your dragon mounted heroes. Its good that DRAGONS and other monsters are powerful, but is kinda is lacking feeling of mass battle. Maybe if Core units have minimal 50% of list....
both systems are very old school and is one of reason with many new systems take so long. I thought they would somehow streamline or speed up process with old world. The amount of time you wait while opposition go thru phases is a negative to me especially when player is not fast or new.
As some one who got back into GW. Love the setting of 40K but I found the game too bloated but quite simplistic in the sense that it’s too rock scissor paper. Don’t get me wrong you can mis match units in any game. But it’s very prevalent. Admittedly I don’t play competitive. Also I probably prefer the more dynamic movement in OW. 40K does not have this. Terrain is also not important in 40K for manoeuvre it just a first turn screen I find. Might be just the kind of game I like where you have a progressive increase of tempo rather than go straight away so it difficult to have a first turn re rack which Iv had way to many times in 40K. Like I said haven’t played in 10 years and I’m probably just shit at it. But if you have a game that last realistically 2 turns with minimal interaction, it’s a bit shit. I play in a club with hard core players coz I play to get good but I find 40K a less enjoyable experience as a new player coming in
I said this before on auspex. 5th: Marines are 180 a squad. Terminator are 200. Tournament points are 1500 10e. Marines 160. Terminator 165, points 2000
Basically every unit in 40K needs a points bump, across the board. The game should not require this damn many models. It's both prohibitively expensive for new players, and it bogs the game down too much.
40k’s you go, I go system is hot garbage. Made even worse with competitive play along with James Workshop not knowing how to make a balanced faction let alone game.
You’re not wrong and that’s what 40k won’t ever be. 40k is boring as a competitive game, you lose the new exciting abilities. It needs to be less flashy to be competitive. Which old world is so it flows better as a competitive game.
Warhammer was made for fantasy. Folks only play 40k for the lore, setting and art. If you want gameplay for the grimdark future epic is the way to go where the scale is more practical. Dice rolls are simplified as well.
tl;dr the worst part of competitive old world isnt the game, its the actual tournament scene. Old world with barren fields or real terrain are completely different games. The former is frankly terrible compared to the latter - rivers, forests and buildings make the game sooo much more interesting to play. Planet Bowling Ball is a problem in old world as much as it is in 40k except it also makes movement boring ontop of effecting sight lines. A dothraki horde ned! in an open field! Old world tournaments are also fighting eachother over what point values are acceptable or good - which is a kinda silly arguement because not every faction is balanced around point maximums the same. Try making a skaven list at 1999+1 - you'll crave a swift death to escape it. Try doing it with High Elves or Chaos - its a comparitive breeze. Tournament packs for old world have inconsistent and frankly infuriating bonus rules sometimes (some of which try to address the previous three paragraphs! but they're different to everyone elses solutions..) - it makes collecting actual tournament statistics a fools errand because theres no consistency from event to event at different places and also hinders going to many different game clubs or stores let alone tournaments. One place has a bonus character limit, another limits these factions but not those, another has sportsmanship points with weiiiird requirements, some tournaments have rule of three some don't, some limit max unit width, some add more limits to rare or special units, some give points based off of quality of paint job, some have points based off how thematic your army list is (unless that theme is a gunline! begone chaos dwarf players!) and some do a mix of the above or all of the above and more! Go read NOVA's tournament rules they're frankly completely insane. Its demoralising if you want to go to more than one game club or place for a tournament. Your experience in one game will not transfer to another properly.
Rolling too little dice or too many dice for each action makes the game feel too swingy and/or bloated. I feel games that only require players to roll one set of dice each, to resolve an action, are more enjoyable and flow better.
Well. Seeing 40k isn't at all competitive game that doesn't take much. But then again...Neither is TOW :D You are like the emperor and his new clothes if you think GW 40k/AOS/TOW is actually competitive :D
No, modern 40k is explicitly a competitive game. All those arbitrary cards and missions and everything? For the competitive scene. TOW is the game with an objective of just, "kill the enemy", and the competitive scene adds on simple objective tokens. Nothing at all comparable to the way 40k works.
Its not bold. Because all armies were designed at the same time, even the legacy once. they are all on par. No Army Book Creep yet. 8:19 thats not really different from TOW. You have to roll the dice up to 13 times without re-rolls for one single round of combat.
bullshit, they were clearly designed to be not balanced, but they messed even this up. bretons and khemri got pretty good rules, empire and dwarfs suck, i wonder why. vampire counts got aos units newly in their roster, skaven got no aos units and even all oldhammer units removed. well that is balanced. vampires are pretty good and therefor rather enjoyable, skaven suck very hard, so everyone stoped playing them. i wonder why skaven are so bad in ow... dont ever say again that gw rules are ment for more than profit.
@@SteelStorm33 Skaven have to many restrictions 1 Clanrats per 1000s points. You need to bring a Plague Priests/Warlock Engineer to use Pestilens/Skryre models. Grey Seers cost way more points then other mages. Their magic item suck. No more outnumbering for combat resolution. Calvary have first charge removing all your ranks.
@@SteelStorm33 Empire and Dwarfs have some strong stuff, I think players just need to adapt their lists. The issues with this game are mostly represented in the Chaos Dragon, and monsters with high armour saves and WS, which seems like it was an oversight/ignored on GW's part. That said, I find it hard to believe all the armies were designed simultaneously, at the very least some received extra polish, and others did not. Vampires for example may be "good" right now, but it requires building into a skew, scream heavy list, thanks to the most permissive rules around screams to date. No one takes Vampires in the "Vampire" army, because they got done dirty in the pdf rules, and aside from abusing that one Illusion spell, aren't that great. Lizardmen have bizarre restrictions around skink priests that make little sense for their army, Vampires lost most of their good special units to the rare category. There's too many choices in pdf armies that feel bizarre, and not thought out.
I feel like 40k is really being held back by how high the model count is getting. Everything feels like at least a bit of a horde, you don't really make many tactical choices when building a list because you can just bring everything anyway, and it means you also spend a lot more time moving your models around compared to the much more efficient movement trays of The Old World. It wouldn't fix everything in the game you talked about, but massively reigning in army sizes with point increases across the board would be helpful for the time issue.
40k was once the best, now i dont even want to talk about it..... the old world is just ok. it has its problems but it is ok, the devs tried to fix the shitshow that once was 9th. and being ok makes it 1000 times better than 40k
its still fun, the hobby is always fun, the only thing is that you will always be on riks that gw slap you in the the face, this can ruin your fun for quite some while or even stop you entirely. with knowing about it will not hurt you that much, rules change, games change, your skill only increases and therefor your hobby enjoyment.
Objectives are the main reason keeping me away from 40k. The objective of the game should be routing the enemy army from the field, not standing on arbitrary circles.
This feels like a boomer take, looking for just beer and pretzel hammer rather than anything else. There are many things wrong with 40k, especially in 10th, but so much of your issues here seem self imposed. If you feel like the clock stresses you out then that's on you I'm afraid, I've never felt that issue thankfully. If anything I'm grateful for it so "that guy" is caught out for slow playing, I've never struggled moving 120 Krieg around. Getting the demon prince confused is also a bit of a self report. The dirtiest words in 40k are "skill issue", but its true - silly mistakes happen to us all but is that really the games fault or yours? Most things in 40k are standardised - a boltgun is always a boltgun across the imperium, a lascannon is basically a bright lance, a fusion blaster is just a meltagun, ect. Its not really hard to remember. As for the taking you out of the game issue, I'm glad there are a variety of things that dictate a game like objectives. The different mission packs (some do suck) allow for an army to lose most of their units but still win if played well - not really possible in TOW scoring system. I like the tactical experience of having goals, getting my units to achieve them and being rewarded. If you want to just unga bunga me smash army that's fine, but its not representative of all 40k players or even competitively viable in 40k. Think how toxic the game would be if there were no objectives to force armies to engage on points, just endless fire-and-fade and indirect bullshit. Look at TWW3, the competitive community focusing on the objective based domination mode is far more balanced than the kill-each-other-only land battles side. As for the gameplay flowing better, I agree its a different game system with a different style. But the flip side of chucking out half the phases, removing individual unit variety in weapons and abilities and each doing less is well, doing less overall. Like I can shoot 20 arrows, roll some dice and kill *checks notes* 2 goblins - woo, much fun. I hated the end of 9th when everything was hyper lethal, but at the same time I actually want to be able to do things with units with some confidence it will happen. The simplification of 10th has been a disaster for those looking for a complex system to express player ability as a result. 6 turns of not much happening isn't really a selling point. You released a video recently about how its better that the 40k scene has become softer and focused more on a fair gameplay experience rather than a wacky piss up, yet it seem in this video you take issue with 40k being (comparatively) more strict in trying to create an even playing field than just chucking some terrain down for a quicker wacky fantasy battle - you can't have it both ways Mordian!
Ill be brutally honest, I love the setting of 40k, but after playing so many other games (bolt action, one page rules, some Napoleon based games, some other cooperative ones) when I finally got to try 40k it just felt so bloated and dated. Somehow lacking complexity, while also having way to much to remember. I dont think its hard to make a wargame better then 40k in any regard, let alone competitively
I'm very much a casual who only plays with friends and I find 40k to be the least fun mechanically of the systems we play.
I haven't tried 10th yet, but I didn't enjoy 9th and 10th doesn't look to be much better from what I've seen.
@@TheKenthor They've added too many special rules to where the game play is slowed down because everyone needs to check rules. Constant point changes and the end of this summer, another rule update for all the armies means people have great difficulties getting used to their armies as they keep changing. People get frustrated due to the changes and the little mistakes that get made because of the changes they forgot about.
I'm primarily a historical gamer. Rules don't change unless you change rule sets. My Napoleonic armies are the same today as they were 30 years ago. Sure, I can buy nicer figures now but that's just an aesthetic feature and not because units were rewritten. I suspect Bolt Action changing with a new 3rd edition is going down the GW path, albeit a bit more slowly.
@@ColonelHoganStalag13 I sure hope you're wrong about Warlord following that path.
Time will tell, I suppose.
gw games were never good games.
lore, setting, style, miniatures, and finally some rules to play and drive the hobby, all together formed warhammer.
interested in playing games, go play video games, interested in building miniatures, go build real model kits, interested in painting, go paint reasonable stuff, the miniature wargaming hobby does all but shit, with lots of rpg on top.
for every aspect of the hobby theres anything that does it better, you need to like more than one thing and it starts to get even with other stuff.
but if you like the whole hobby, or even just most of it, you are into it.
Nailed it. Lacking complexity while having loads to remember is a good summary
Not to yuck anyone’s yum however I feel like 10th ed of 40k lost something from prior editions, and old world just seems to capture a bit of the old magic that has kept me in this hobby for so long.
Someone said it best when they said OW is just the Horus heresy for AoS... so it's no mystery why WHFB is so popular in a day of 10th ed 40k.
Yes exactly. 10th Ed and 3rd Ed AOS feels like a watered down version of the old school games we used to enjoy. Everything is so bland and special rules aren’t special anymore, just the same thing everyone has with a different code name
surprise, thats warhammer.
no gw game is warhammer any more, old world is.
old world isnt good as a game, it isnt good for lore, it isnt even good in being warhammer,
but its the best warhammer game and lore available.
I feel exactly the same way. 😔 I full got in on the hype for 10th ed last summer, but it's just such a departure. Last Friday, however, I had my first ever WHFB game in the form of The Old World, and it was so much fun! 💜 It got me fondly thinking back to where this hobby all started for me; Warhammer 40k 5th ed.
@@dr3dg352 that is almost the same path as me except the players I played with fell out the hobby while keeping there models so maybe able to get a game once a blue moon
I guess I'll find out for myself tomorrow when I'll play my first game of Old World.
which army army are you using? and do tell how it went
It’s gonna hit u like a ton of bricks! Everyone remembers there first
@@Thefluxtion The Wood Elves, 1000 points. I expect to lose, as it should be the first time.
@@Thefluxtion Okay, how it went: well my opponent had Lizardmen and he had a Bastilodon and a Stegodon who kept shooting magic missiles. That destroyed my troops. They said the outcome was pretty much predetermined, but also that if I had played against either of the other guys there who had Orcs and Ogers I definately would have won. But anyway, the objective was to learn the game and in that respect it was succesful.
Old Word/fantasy requires that you have some grasp on stratergy.
40k requires you to know ALL the rules and play math-hammer.
Old world/fantasy has been, and will continue to be a better stratergy game and therefore a better competative game, since 8th ed 40k. Because what side you attack an enemy from matters. Meaning that there is more need to think strategicaly, to consider board controll and more.
Also units that loose morale flee, and sometimes reform, or flee off the board. they don't just dissapear into thin air.
fantasy always had general rules, aplicable for every faction and unit.
40k went so far off of this idea that people really complained about units having so many "keywords" or "special rules" in old world, not getting that their made-for-kids 40k and aos "datasheets" or other fancy words contain more rules and need more reading and discussion during games.
even mtg got standardized special rules and crafted them into single words on their cards, which everyone knows.
modern gw kids can learn this too.
a game cant be tactical if you dont know what your opponent is capable of,
think about chess...
Old world. T6 5 wounds 3+ save. "I'm basically invincible".
40k t10 10 wounds 2+ save. "I'm slightly tougher than paper"
some 40k kids took over a ow turnament and enforced only one save after armor,
go play somewhere else...
Not controversial, it's just a fact.
I was about to Sell my AOS/Warhammer FAntasy ARmies to get more Bolt ACtion armies.
But should I hold on those DEAD MINIS?
@darioscomicschool1111 Honestly, fantasy miniatures are the best to collect for long-term wargaming aside from historical like your bolt action stuff. Definitely do NOT sell your WHFB models. You can use them in everything from the Old World and other rank and flanks like Kings of War. RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons, skirmish games like Mordheim (the best GW game) and Frostgrave, etc. If anything, you should sell your 40k stuff or use it for the Horus heresy. If you're a Xenos player like me, then wait for the day a real threat to 40k appears in wargaming. Not a question of if, but when.
@@RubyRingofJamesBrown Ok Brother I keep all of my Fantasy Bretonians and my High Elves. The Swordmasters of Hoeth will be Fielded side by side with the White Lions and the White Lion Chariot.
Mordheim I wanted to play for a Loooong Time.
Yeah I play Deathwatch in 40k. I really wanted to get me some Xenos, But I wanted to keep my First Army Small and Cheap. Not Sure something could Replace 40k. Its very popular. I kinda like it, but I am more a Fantasy and WW2 Guy. And also the Constant rerolls and Rules updates from GW do not help my 40k Experience.
Thanks for the Response!
Came here to say exactly this
Dude I bought the old WFHB General’s Compendium book to read and it’s so imaginative and charming. I bet it’s compatible with Old World still
That's a great old book. I still have mine from when it first came out.
Generals compendium is a fucking sick book, got rid of mine like a decade+ ago but cheers buddy
It most certainly is compatible, amazingly
Totally agree. Being a WHF- and 40k-player for 30 years now, I miss the days of 4th, 5th and 6th editions of 40K. 40k is not a pure miniature game anymore. To much bookkeeping of what does what and, like you said, to many dice. Even in 10th...
TOW is indeed much more streamlined and IMO focusses more on the essence of a miniature game, which is playing with the miniatures instead of checking unit rules combo-ing with other unit rules, compared to your opponents unit-rules.
Nice spot-on video!
Old world is like OPRs: super simple base profiles, a lot of flavorful special rules. Together with the tons of negative design space, this makes playing with or against every army very different. Chaos, Dark Eleves or Dwarfs do not have basically anything in common within their gameplans.
40k 10th is the opposite: extremely complex profiles, tons of weapons... but every army feels the same. They just get their form of sustained hits or +1 to hit. All armies have horde units, elite units, tanks and melee specialists. The ones that don't are regarded as useless (see tyranids without antitank).
You can tell where the good rulewriters are in GW.
In relation to number of dice, I've been able to play entire Old World Games with 18 dice plus the artillery pair.
Back in the day Warhammer Fantasy Battles was better than 40K, competitively speaking. Not surprised that TOW is the same.
Why is everything always framed like this. Plastic dudes on a table. Just have friends with your buddy. The past few years are starting to look like how mtg got and why I left that.
I enjoy it more because the rules don't change between every game I get to play. My 40k orks list got invalidated before it ever hit the field. 40k is just feels bad all over.
speedpaint 3 colours and play turnaments, everyone else is wrong in 40k.
bless the editor for that goblin image
I think another reason why old world is quicker is that it doesn't have an exaggerated shooting phase. Sure there is magic, but it isn't like back in the early days of fantasy. So there is mainly just melee and a bit of shooting and magic. With 40k it's both. And even if there are two shooty armies, pure ranged combat offer a lot more possibilities, and thus makes it less likely that two armies will just run straight towards each other and clash in the middle, forcing more maneuvers, especially with how there's more/longer movement. Not that I think it's a bad thing. I like the two games being different. It's just hard to balance it out.
He honestly reminded me of Salty Admiral Simon 😆
@Death.Korps_of_Wrath Well I did officially name him Simon Stuntyslapper!
7:15
see you are confusing the cause and effect.
The effect is that all the vehicles have lots of dakka. The cause was that the game allowed vehicles to shoot all there guns. that was not the case in older editions. the vehcicles got more dakka as they adapted to the new base rules.
I was a hardcore fantasy player for many years. By 2006 they had screwed up the game so bad I just had to sell it all off and escape. At this point, I don't believe I could get back into "Old World" because I don't trust GW not to end it again at some point or not to have the equivalent to Codex Creep. They had Army Books that were progressively getting worse. They had also got rid of some armies (Dogs of War, Chaos Dwarves) and refused to support them. They've burned those bridges in my mind and like Epic 40k or Necromunda, they got rid of it once and brought it back, why wouldn't they do it again?
by selling all your stuff you were mostly into the game, the hobby is more than this, and gaming is a rather small part for most people. start to have fun with crafting models and diving into the lore, gw is really bad with making games (they got bad in everything else rather recently too), but enjoying your crafts and fielding your accomplishments is the real hobby after all.
As a Dogs of War player I feel the pain of being discarded. Thank God for the Warhammer Armies Project as he allowed me to play the army in 7th and 8th edition.
I don’t think you have to worry about the old world being blown up this time around. I honestly like the place that the old world is in. It isn’t one of GWs main games anymore. It’s debatable if it’s even number 3. Maybe time will tell but the good thing about it is that they’ve released the rules and it probably won’t be messed with too much in the near future or even the distant future. Maybe some errata here and there but it’s released and they are on to 40K and the new aos. Plus there are so many good 3rd party models out there for fantasy that you can build an army for so much cheaper.
I’d add that the importance of movement and positioning makes for really interesting games. It’s a fascinating challenge.
One thing about 40k that i've found is the sheer quantity of dice rolling that you should do that could be meaningful.
I.E. the repulsor executioner is a tank that has the following profile that can be sustained lethal 5's. So it's all worth rolling.
2 Heavy laser Destroyer shots
12 Heavy Onslaught Gatling cannon shots
1d3 Icarus Rocket pod Shots
3 (or 6 if in 18 inch ironhail heavy stubber shots
10 Defensive Array Shots
3 Heavy boilter shots with sustained twin linked
3 Heavy icarus Heavy stubber shots - Anti fly 4+ rapid fire 3, and twin linked.
Some of this is re-rolling, some of it isn't. It's all different strengths, all different AP's and all different damage...
If it's oath of momented, it's ALL rerolling to hit, and I do mean if it's a 5/6 you're rerolling all of it to fish for that sustained lethals...
RIIIIGHT so i've got 33 shots with rapid for on 2 profiles for an additional 6, with sustained lethal 5's on all of it.
Re-rolling al non 5/6's getting something like 40% extra shots that are all auto wounding with different profiles against my opponents stuff with different toughness profiles. AHRHGHGHGH.
I am FAST at rolling dice, and often to the detriment of my opponent not knowing wtf is going on and it still takes 2 minutes to shoot all this shit.
Not to mention there is so much information here to remember that it's really challenging to remember the profile of this.
This is 220 points, this is 10% of your army and it takes 2 minutes to shoot by itself assuming no interaction from your opponent & your going FAST...
Everybody has SPEARS!
BABY BABY! HIT ME ONE MORE TIME!
Other outcome of fewer dice and rerolls is its harder to manage chance, which encourages competitive but chill. Which is great.
My only criticism of Old world is the magic system. If you imported the power dice / dispel dice system from 6th Ed I think it would go a long way.
6th edition had flawed too, where one side could just dominate the magic phase similar to TOW.
I think WAP had the best magic phase as all wizard levels where useful.
@@grlmgor What’s WAP? I googled and I came up with unofficial 9th. Haven’t heard of it before..
@@cavemansam8400 Warhammer Armies Project.
It 8th magic phase with some changes below
Level 1 and 2 get +1 to cast and dispel.
Level 3 and 4 get +2 to cast and dispel.
You get the signature spell plus 1 spell for each level.
You pick your spells but a level 1 can only pick from the first 3, this increase by 1 per level. (example a level 3 pick 3 spells from the first 5 spells in the lore.)
@@grlmgor I got pissed off with 8ths blatant attempt to make you buy lots of models so I had bailed by then. Funnily enough all of the changes you say you like actually seem like they come from 6th! - How did magic work in 8th?
@@cavemansam8400 Winds of magic is where you roll 2D6 add them up and that your power pool. While the highest dice is the dispel pool. Also you can channel extra dice by rolling a dice per wizard level on a roll of a 6 you get an extra dice to your pool.
Play a two day event of 9th age, team style , was the best fun i ever had , community was so friendly and teaching , even its was full of high skilled veteran player
After that high skilled and balanced game
Came back to play 10th is weird....
I really like your old world and bolt action batreps.
I don't play old world. I kinda feel that 40k is kind of a shit game with how constantly it changes. Gw is basically pulling playground rules where they're constant 1 uping each other.
GW was doing that decades ago too. They keep messing with the rules to sell new army books, slowly ruin the game and then claim a reset with a new edition. Well, it works. Older players see through this scheme and move on.
@@ColonelHoganStalag13 a stagnant game isnt fun, if you put all your hobby effort into gaming.
gaming is a huge market, modeling and painting a very small, more gamers are more profit i guess.
Just for me personally, I agree.
I would go to a TOW tournament… I haven’t gone to a 40K tournament since 6th or early 7th edition.
10th is becoming the beast 9th was near the end. Extreme lethality, turn one charges, just crazy combos that ruin everything.
Old world even the magic seems reasonable. I might consider doing 3rd edition 40k again. One page rules didnt have enough granuality
>even the magic seems reasonable
oh, no-no-no, don't ever leave the house without lvl 4 wizard in any mildly competitive environment
@@marcusflutist1230 isnt that steep, but 200+ points in a wizard is worth way more than in a unit.
most spells are meh, some are quite good, and just a few are bonkers. with removing every fun they also removed most player based rules abuse, despite we are just into the experiments of movement spells...
Yah old world battle for the win
Havent played 40k since mid 8th ed. I didnt mind the changes at first but later down the road with to many books and power creep I was a "No Thanks!" player.
Im a long time warhammer player and loved specialists games ect. When Fantasy died it was very hard breaking for me since i was traveling tournament player during 6th,7th and 8th. Honestly 40k is way to tedious with all theses little here and there rules and but TOW really brought back the comeback for me and other veteran players.
However i wish GW didnt make Old World so scarce to find. Ita for reall!
It’s the nostalgia hit for me. I’ve actually packed up my 40K stuff as most of my friends have switched to old world. I enjoy them not really messing with it. I’m a filthy casual anyway
I wouldn't really say 10th is any different to 8th or 9th when it comes to set-up or the complexity of having to explain what your army does. I think the thing about games taking ages is just simply because of how low GW have made average points costs.
Even for my Aeldari, who have had several major points increases in 10th, most of the lists I make for them nowadays are still 2500-2700 points in 9th values. Most other armies are in the same boat or go even larger; people bring up Votann and Admech a lot but Tau lists are sometimes pushing 3.8k points if they were 9th ones.
It's almost like the took a complex game of 40k from pre 7th and simplified it so much that it's less tactical and more buy the best unit multiple times.
sadly yes, but gw didnt know which unit will be best.
they messed up the rules so badly that most factions dont even use their characteristic units.
you will not see any warriors of chaos in a competitive warriors of chaos army.
@@SteelStorm33 Warriors of Chaos are a great unit as their heavy infantry. So a small unit of 4 by 4 with access to command unit to get full combat resolution.
Now combined with a Giant, Chariot, Dragon Ogre, Troll, Chosen or Forsaken and good luck winning that combat.
Are you saying 40k is tactical?😂
If only old world had support for skaven...I'd love to play it.
I think the TRUE competitive TOW is quite depressing. As few models as possible.
But if played by gentlemen, TOW is just glorious
I see the low model count as a PLUS. You're not having to buy, build, paint, and haul hundreds of models just to play the game.
That's true, but those few models are often also more expensive. On top of that it makes it closer to Age of Sigmar in that the focus is less on armies as such but instead you get a strange circus train of steam tanks, monsters and powerful lords on huge showcase beasts without the base (infantry) to make it feel like an army. To me that always feels like a sandwich which transforms into a big piece of ham on a plate, a big tomato and some breadcrumbs sprinkled on top. :)
I do love that you kept bringing up basically player placed terrain for 40k
The there’s a lot of dice been thrown around in old world you know things aren’t going very well for you
40K has more model interactions than a much smaller skirmish game. 10th literally had every troop interact with some type of "leader" and vice versa.
I like both, don't really play either competitively, but like Old World better. Great games
All they have to do is let the unit fight into a challenge if one unit is on its last model. Same challenge rules as 30k and the game becomes over the top amazing.
That's a widely accepted fact, not a "controversial opinion".
40k is a terrible competitive game it was never meant to be a competitive game, 3:23 standard terrain layouts are a terrible thing, that made a lot of wargamers expect and accept low effort looking tables at events they are papering over the cracks of how poor the game system is for a competitive game. Years back an event had shocking looking L shaped ruins on every table and it was massive news about how terrible it was and people wanting their money back as this is not the standard of table people should expect at an event..... now its not only accepted but expected at events. 40k community really need to stop with the competitive focus.
Frantically putting together mynold word army after finding out that people are less strict with having painted armies!
I'm surprised I haven't seen mats to place down that show objective markers and where to place terrain on top of them.
Happy to se more tow content. I have been bitten by the fantasy bug myself.
My friend Liz let me use her dark elves for my first ever game, and it was so fun! 😍 Can't wait to start collecting my own dark elf army for The Old World. 💜
The nostalgia glasses are strong here.
do you think it would help massively if we didnt have to pay £30 fo a codex, that way players could no other factions combos
Who painted the goblins at 10:40 they look incredible!
Probably mine. Lots of purple and ghostly greens? Those are mine.
I’ve been away from the game for a couple of editions. I recently came back and split the leviathan set with a friend. I was surprised how much the game has changed. I don’t know if it’s good or bad on the main but for me it’s not really my cup of tea.
I was around gaming when warmachine/hordes was really big and it seems to me that 40K has turned into a hybrid of 40K and warmachine. It’s tailored to the competitive scene. I get it, those people make content, they are vocal, they make up a lot of sales chasing the meta. But it has just went way to tedious for me. Too much to remember and track. If that’s the direction GW wants to go then I am happy playing old world.
I love 40k, but I think you're right on this.
I would argue that the more players a system has, the more sweaty it gets. Tougher players want tougher rules that are more waterproof. That's actually applicable to any hobby, at some time there is a tipping point where it pulled the wrong people which drives the older more casual people away and those people force the rules to change.
I experienced that with Jugger, it was so nice and casual, now it's just stressful and im no longer interested.
no, everyone wants waterproof rules, all the time,
this is more important by playing with foreigners than locals.
you need standardized rules for playing to ensure noone complains and everyone knows whats going on.
gw rules are poorly written and unclear, on top every single unit has their own rules, naming conventions and attacks, despite being exactly the same as multiple other units, but casuals cant remember even the smallest set of rules aparently.
we just discuss if a baneblade cannon has for sure the same profile as a stormhammer cannon, or forget that the malcador battlecannon has a different profile than the lemon russ battlecannon...
not the old are casual, the new are the casuals which hurt the game.
veterans go to the less casual games and away from 4+k and age of kindergarten.
old world got many veterans back, dusting of armies older than most 40k players,
they have tons of fun with the game and their uh-so-old miniatures,
while casual gamers complain every single moment about old miniature ranges and so time consuming list building.
2+ RR1s is such a waste of everyones time in 40K. Especially when you're picking up 30+ dice.
I'd give it a go, but nobody seems interested in my LGS
The difference is that I can actually buy 40k models and find people to play with.
Competitive is fine, but there is already problem with variety of army lists. my recent tournament, both VC players have the same list 2 Dragons and 2 Terrorgheist, also both TK players 2 Dragons and 1-2 Necrosphinx. O&G, what Orcs? I have 3 battle against the and it was only Night Goblins and fanatics. For now core units are sometimes considered tax to pay in order to get your dragon mounted heroes. Its good that DRAGONS and other monsters are powerful, but is kinda is lacking feeling of mass battle. Maybe if Core units have minimal 50% of list....
They haven't done a real balance pass yet. Give it time.
If people play TOW many of them will abandon AoS and 40k. I dropped 40k when I got into WHFB 7th ed. Just a better system.
I’ve heard this take from quite a few people that have played both games.
both systems are very old school and is one of reason with many new systems take so long. I thought they would somehow streamline or speed up process with old world. The amount of time you wait while opposition go thru phases is a negative to me especially when player is not fast or new.
they were on the way of refinement like mtg, deleted everything and made yugioh instead.
I was hoping they'd go to alternating phases like MESBG. I still like it, but think it would be even better if they had used MESBG game flow.
I want to Go for skaven for old world do you think i can get it viable?
As some one who got back into GW. Love the setting of 40K but I found the game too bloated but quite simplistic in the sense that it’s too rock scissor paper. Don’t get me wrong you can mis match units in any game. But it’s very prevalent.
Admittedly I don’t play competitive.
Also I probably prefer the more dynamic movement in OW. 40K does not have this.
Terrain is also not important in 40K for manoeuvre it just a first turn screen I find.
Might be just the kind of game I like where you have a progressive increase of tempo rather than go straight away so it difficult to have a first turn re rack which Iv had way to many times in 40K. Like I said haven’t played in 10 years and I’m probably just shit at it. But if you have a game that last realistically 2 turns with minimal interaction, it’s a bit shit.
I play in a club with hard core players coz I play to get good but I find 40K a less enjoyable experience as a new player coming in
I remember when space marines were an elite army. Egg I had a dream I was old.
I said this before on auspex.
5th: Marines are 180 a squad. Terminator are 200.
Tournament points are 1500
10e. Marines 160. Terminator 165, points 2000
Damn, that reference really got me.
It's true though.
Basically every unit in 40K needs a points bump, across the board. The game should not require this damn many models. It's both prohibitively expensive for new players, and it bogs the game down too much.
@@Bluecho4 I love having plastic Sisters of Battle these days, but they're just too damn expensive to collect!
Well, I only play Old World, so I suppose I don't have much to contribute to this discussion apart from saying that Old World is great! :)
40k’s you go, I go system is hot garbage. Made even worse with competitive play along with James Workshop not knowing how to make a balanced faction let alone game.
You’re not wrong and that’s what 40k won’t ever be. 40k is boring as a competitive game, you lose the new exciting abilities. It needs to be less flashy to be competitive. Which old world is so it flows better as a competitive game.
Warhammer was made for fantasy. Folks only play 40k for the lore, setting and art. If you want gameplay for the grimdark future epic is the way to go where the scale is more practical. Dice rolls are simplified as well.
tl;dr the worst part of competitive old world isnt the game, its the actual tournament scene.
Old world with barren fields or real terrain are completely different games. The former is frankly terrible compared to the latter - rivers, forests and buildings make the game sooo much more interesting to play. Planet Bowling Ball is a problem in old world as much as it is in 40k except it also makes movement boring ontop of effecting sight lines. A dothraki horde ned! in an open field!
Old world tournaments are also fighting eachother over what point values are acceptable or good - which is a kinda silly arguement because not every faction is balanced around point maximums the same. Try making a skaven list at 1999+1 - you'll crave a swift death to escape it. Try doing it with High Elves or Chaos - its a comparitive breeze.
Tournament packs for old world have inconsistent and frankly infuriating bonus rules sometimes (some of which try to address the previous three paragraphs! but they're different to everyone elses solutions..) - it makes collecting actual tournament statistics a fools errand because theres no consistency from event to event at different places and also hinders going to many different game clubs or stores let alone tournaments.
One place has a bonus character limit, another limits these factions but not those, another has sportsmanship points with weiiiird requirements, some tournaments have rule of three some don't, some limit max unit width, some add more limits to rare or special units, some give points based off of quality of paint job, some have points based off how thematic your army list is (unless that theme is a gunline! begone chaos dwarf players!) and some do a mix of the above or all of the above and more! Go read NOVA's tournament rules they're frankly completely insane.
Its demoralising if you want to go to more than one game club or place for a tournament. Your experience in one game will not transfer to another properly.
Never agreed more to anything in my life
Agree, thx for the video
No t sure if better for compertion but what he says is true, it plays better and quicker. Its just a better game than 40K.
Old World for the win!
No controversy at all. It always has been better.
I love The Old World
No mass reroll is the best thing about old game, like this or 9th age , or mordheim ect
30k have this too ,
competive old world isnt played by claiming rank bonuses,
youngling.
Is it controversial? Nearly everyone knows and accepts 40K is a horrible competitive game. It's GW that pushes it.
always was
Correct
Rolling too little dice or too many dice for each action makes the game feel too swingy and/or bloated. I feel games that only require players to roll one set of dice each, to resolve an action, are more enjoyable and flow better.
📖 Preach
Well. Seeing 40k isn't at all competitive game that doesn't take much. But then again...Neither is TOW :D You are like the emperor and his new clothes if you think GW 40k/AOS/TOW is actually competitive :D
No, modern 40k is explicitly a competitive game. All those arbitrary cards and missions and everything? For the competitive scene. TOW is the game with an objective of just, "kill the enemy", and the competitive scene adds on simple objective tokens. Nothing at all comparable to the way 40k works.
Its not bold. Because all armies were designed at the same time, even the legacy once. they are all on par. No Army Book Creep yet.
8:19 thats not really different from TOW. You have to roll the dice up to 13 times without re-rolls for one single round of combat.
bullshit, they were clearly designed to be not balanced, but they messed even this up.
bretons and khemri got pretty good rules, empire and dwarfs suck, i wonder why.
vampire counts got aos units newly in their roster, skaven got no aos units and even all oldhammer units removed.
well that is balanced. vampires are pretty good and therefor rather enjoyable, skaven suck very hard, so everyone stoped playing them. i wonder why skaven are so bad in ow...
dont ever say again that gw rules are ment for more than profit.
@@SteelStorm33 Skaven have to many restrictions
1 Clanrats per 1000s points.
You need to bring a Plague Priests/Warlock Engineer to use Pestilens/Skryre models.
Grey Seers cost way more points then other mages.
Their magic item suck.
No more outnumbering for combat resolution.
Calvary have first charge removing all your ranks.
@@SteelStorm33 Empire and Dwarfs have some strong stuff, I think players just need to adapt their lists. The issues with this game are mostly represented in the Chaos Dragon, and monsters with high armour saves and WS, which seems like it was an oversight/ignored on GW's part.
That said, I find it hard to believe all the armies were designed simultaneously, at the very least some received extra polish, and others did not. Vampires for example may be "good" right now, but it requires building into a skew, scream heavy list, thanks to the most permissive rules around screams to date. No one takes Vampires in the "Vampire" army, because they got done dirty in the pdf rules, and aside from abusing that one Illusion spell, aren't that great. Lizardmen have bizarre restrictions around skink priests that make little sense for their army, Vampires lost most of their good special units to the rare category. There's too many choices in pdf armies that feel bizarre, and not thought out.
I feel like 40k is really being held back by how high the model count is getting. Everything feels like at least a bit of a horde, you don't really make many tactical choices when building a list because you can just bring everything anyway, and it means you also spend a lot more time moving your models around compared to the much more efficient movement trays of The Old World. It wouldn't fix everything in the game you talked about, but massively reigning in army sizes with point increases across the board would be helpful for the time issue.
40k was once the best, now i dont even want to talk about it..... the old world is just ok. it has its problems but it is ok, the devs tried to fix the shitshow that once was 9th. and being ok makes it 1000 times better than 40k
Wow, and here I am about to get back into 40k. What can I do against such reckless hate
its still fun, the hobby is always fun, the only thing is that you will always be on riks that gw slap you in the the face,
this can ruin your fun for quite some while or even stop you entirely.
with knowing about it will not hurt you that much, rules change, games change, your skill only increases and therefor your hobby enjoyment.
better as a competitive game is as low as the bar gets lol
Objectives are the main reason keeping me away from 40k. The objective of the game should be routing the enemy army from the field, not standing on arbitrary circles.
This feels like a boomer take, looking for just beer and pretzel hammer rather than anything else. There are many things wrong with 40k, especially in 10th, but so much of your issues here seem self imposed. If you feel like the clock stresses you out then that's on you I'm afraid, I've never felt that issue thankfully. If anything I'm grateful for it so "that guy" is caught out for slow playing, I've never struggled moving 120 Krieg around. Getting the demon prince confused is also a bit of a self report. The dirtiest words in 40k are "skill issue", but its true - silly mistakes happen to us all but is that really the games fault or yours? Most things in 40k are standardised - a boltgun is always a boltgun across the imperium, a lascannon is basically a bright lance, a fusion blaster is just a meltagun, ect. Its not really hard to remember. As for the taking you out of the game issue, I'm glad there are a variety of things that dictate a game like objectives. The different mission packs (some do suck) allow for an army to lose most of their units but still win if played well - not really possible in TOW scoring system. I like the tactical experience of having goals, getting my units to achieve them and being rewarded. If you want to just unga bunga me smash army that's fine, but its not representative of all 40k players or even competitively viable in 40k. Think how toxic the game would be if there were no objectives to force armies to engage on points, just endless fire-and-fade and indirect bullshit. Look at TWW3, the competitive community focusing on the objective based domination mode is far more balanced than the kill-each-other-only land battles side.
As for the gameplay flowing better, I agree its a different game system with a different style. But the flip side of chucking out half the phases, removing individual unit variety in weapons and abilities and each doing less is well, doing less overall. Like I can shoot 20 arrows, roll some dice and kill *checks notes* 2 goblins - woo, much fun. I hated the end of 9th when everything was hyper lethal, but at the same time I actually want to be able to do things with units with some confidence it will happen. The simplification of 10th has been a disaster for those looking for a complex system to express player ability as a result. 6 turns of not much happening isn't really a selling point.
You released a video recently about how its better that the 40k scene has become softer and focused more on a fair gameplay experience rather than a wacky piss up, yet it seem in this video you take issue with 40k being (comparatively) more strict in trying to create an even playing field than just chucking some terrain down for a quicker wacky fantasy battle - you can't have it both ways Mordian!