Rule 0 is just communication between people dressed up. The whole point of "rule 0" is to encourage people to have that pregame discussion. It's like uno. Some experienced players like long never ending games, so they play with gimiks, homebrew rules, or more decks shuffle together. Other's like to play multiple quicker games and so adjust the rules and other aspects accordingly. Either way you discuss the rules and what people wanna play with before changing anything. That's all rule 0 is in any game not just EDH. When you play a a game everyone agrees to play by the rules a "rule 0" you could say.
So you were born the same year I originally started playing Magic lol that's crazy. I started during the Mirrodin block, when I was in middle school ETA after watching your video I 100% agree with your opinion on Coalition Victory. The very first time I accidentally won a game with Simic Ascendency in my Urtet deck before its engine was even fully online really soured me on "if x then you win the game" cards. It stopped me from having fun with the deck I built, so I didn't even enjoy the victory. I immediately yeeted the card from the deck (fortunately it was a proxy and I didn't spend money on it) and made a point to let every other player know I didn't have it in the deck anymore. And Simic Ascendency isn't even as dumb as Coalition victory because, much like other similar alternate win conditions, it makes its check for victory at the beginning of your upkeep, meaning that, after you fulfil the condition, both you and the card need to survive a full turn cycle for the win. But it basically reads "unless you kept enchantment removal or topdeck it right now I win, lol sucks to suck", which I just don't enjoy, even if I'm on the winning side. Coming of the Second Sun is a bit less dumb, because it requires more effort to make it immediate and, thus, it is easier to stop, but I still probably wouldn't personally play it.
Yeah, the main alternate wincon I play is Halo Fountain in my Baylen deck because I thought it was funny, but I’m likely going to cut it here soon. I also have a Primal Surge deck that gets less and less fun the more I play it, so I really need to consider whether I want to keep that deck around
I think the reason it stays banned, despite being bad, is that it would basically be an auto-include in 5 color decks. Just an "I win" button if you have your commander and either enough dual lands or a prismatic omen.
My problem with Coalition Victory (and the reason that I thought it was banded) is that it is trivially easy to assemble the win condition, thus giving an advantage to 5 color decks or any other decks that can incidentally meet those requirements.
@@Reckl3ssGring0 You must really suck at making land drops if you aren't getting to 8 mana consistently in casual commander. Ramp spells, mana rocks, and fetches are bread and butter.
It's....fine. Sure it's boring, but this is hardly unique (Is getting Crater Hoofed for the billionth time somehow exciting? How about Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance which only require making it to your upkeep and having the requisite life?) What's more perplexing is that Thoracle somehow HASN'T been banned despite meeting all the same criteria (along with being far cheaper and far harder to interact with). At least Coalition Victory ends the game at an appropriately game ending EIGHT mana. If a player can afford to spend eight mana on something, they're already firmly in 'end the game territory' anyway.
Thank you! If a player can spend that Mana, has all those lands and suitable creatures (or yeah a 5 Color Commander) out, can afford 8 mana for that and of course the sorcery doesn‘t get countered, the player either has the biggest chances to win either way, or the other players did not do nearly enough.
With all of the conditions to attain Coalition Victory, 5 different lands, 5 different creatures, and 8 mana, having it in hand, and maintaining all of this on resolution, you deserve to win the game. It's a fairly telegraphed spell or win consition because of it's reputation, and it's exclusive to WUBRG comanders, no Rakdos or Jeskai deck is dropping Coalition Victory. Outside of completely new players, players playing against a WUBRG commander won't rule out Coalition Victory and will have time to observe their behavior well before 8 mana is made available for the victory. The sheer amount of mana needed to perform CV goes well beyond the 8 mana by virtue of needing creatures on board and have them survive long enough far out strips the mana needed for things like Revel in Riches with an extra turn spell for that immediate win and Toracle. CV is far in away the worst win consition card as it also is effectively a dead card in every state of the game except for the one where you have your victory conditions met which is far above what's required for other combos in the game.
you don't need five different lands OR five different creatures. you need a land of each type (fulfilled by two triomes among other options) and a creature of each color (a single five color creature fulfills this, and if you're playing Coalition Victory, you almost certainly have one of those in your command zone). eight mana can potentially be a steep cost esp with the colored requirements but you're in five color so you should be running a ton of color fixing and rocks anyway.
@rascalqueen5426 and again, it's all a steep mana sink to set the Victory up, you still need to search or draw the Victory, you still need to succeed in having your commander on board which will be at least 5 mana to cast your commander on top of just casting CV. Not to mention all of the opposition you'll face as soon as people see you positioning the pieces for a reputable card like CV, anything from counter spells and targeted removal to board wipes and player removal puts CV to a halt. Considering the magnitude of other cheaper and easier combos and win conditions, CV can have a chance to see if it has a place in Commander.
Except "5 creatures and 5 lands" is not the condition. To even put Coalition Victory in your deck, you need a 5c commander. While cards such as Morophon or Kyodai have a 5c identity while not being 5c, these are a minority, and you wouldn't be running it in those decks. If your commander is 5c, it singlehandedly fulfills the 2nd condition. As for the first condition: This can also be fulfilled by a single Everywhere token, though more realistically it'll get fulfilled by 2-3 lands. Just by running triomes/surveil lands, you can easily get all types before hitting 6-8 lands. And for the record: Despite just going over how easy it is to fulfill, I am still for unbanning the card. It costs 8 mana. Omniscience is 10 mana, and they could just straight up print "win the game" on it and I wouldn't care at that cost (and that's essentially what it does already). Coalition Victory at least has a condition, even if it's easy to meet. And any instant speed creature removal makes it an 8 mana do literally nothing.
@@alicetheaxolotl I love that land removal gets missed from the conversation. Popping a Triome with a Ghost Quarters or Field of Ruin sets the land condition back two land types. Again, the 8 mana on Coalition Victory is a lie because of the need for creatures. And once again, if the deck's goal is to win through Coalition Victory, it demands finding the spell one way or another and is a heavily telegraphed movement.
@otterfire4712 I actually was going to mention land removal in my comment initially, but decided to only bring up creature removal because I didn't think you could reliably set it back with just 1 Field of Ruin. So I decided to put that to the test with 10 hands of 6 cards (10 triomes, 10 tap duals, 1 of each basic, with 15 untyped lands). The other 60 that would be in an actual deck are irrelevant since we only care how many types they have at 6 lands. I assumed they would have Sol Ring with every hand, which is a very bold assumption, but less lands makes it easier to disrupt. And I used Moxfield's online shuffler to avoid inadvertently rigging results with poor shuffling. For transparency, I redid 3 hands because those hands did not draw all 5 basic types, since I think it is a safe assumption that a player would not cast CV with only 4 types. Now as for the actual results: While getting them down to 4 types with a *_Strip Mine_* was much more consistent than I expected (7 hands lose to a Strip Mine), every single one of those hands can still win through Field of Ruin or Ghost Quarters with the fetched basic. But, I will concede that land destruction that doesn't replace it with a basic was still much more effective than expected.
Imo winning with coalition victory isnt much different from a lot of combo wins. At least coalition victory forces you to have some pieces on board for it.
The main difference I tried to point out in the video is that dealing with CV is much harder if you don’t know about it. If I see someone playing Ashnod’s Altar, I’m much more inclined to believe that’s an infinite combo piece even when I don’t know for a fact that it is. Without knowing about CV ahead of time, a 5C commander looks pretty innocuous when thinking about a combo kill.
1, it requires 1 piece if you're playing any 5 color commander with 5 pips in the cost. There's absolutely other wincons that are stronger, but it's just so trivial that it's boring af to see so why unban it.
@@malmasterson you need all basic lands types too. it requires itself, (Sorcery), a commander (Creature) and most likely an Enchantment like Leyline of the Guildpact or Prismatic Omen for maximum efficiency (meaning you would also need 1 land).
@jackveith2416 Yes, and Triomes, Shocks, and Surveils make that so trivially easy it's not worth considering. You really don't need a Leyline when you have a typical EDHREC manabase. You'll assemble all 5 without even thinking, so all you need is to cast your commander & then cast Coalition.
I have a soft spot for the card, as I was playing a lot of Magic back when this card was Standard legal. My friends and I were playing a LOT of Invasion Block Limited, and we all hated opening this card. (Congratulations! The rare from your Apoc pack is un-playable!) All the Timmys at the shop looked at it as a fun card to build around in Limited, and we had fun proving them wrong. Again, I played a LOT of IB limited that year, and only ever saw Coalition Victory win a game twice. It was always very impressive when it happened... Because it almost NEVER happened.
Nope, made me feel young. CAUSE I'M A 2006ER GET REKT In all seriousness though, I totally agree. All the other arguments I've seen for coalition victory just sounded a little hollow to me. "Oh, it's not powerful enough to *actually* see any play, just unban it!" "Oh, it wins too quickly, just leave it." Neither of those get to the core reason why this card is banned, which is that is just makes for unfun play patterns almost every time it's played and sequential times after that. It's like trying to play a 2-card gimmick deck where one of the cards is your commander and then getting surprised when people remove your commander on the spot.
When it comes to debates like this, I always wonder if Thassa's Oracle being playable is just to keep CEDH in the state that it's in. Coalition is too weak for CEDH, but too strong / boring for most casual tables. I think its insane that ThOracle, Felidar Soverign, and others are playable when Coalition isnt, but I wonder how much of that is now a status quo of competitive vs casual or something.
I think the social nature has kept Thoracle in it's play, and I don't think most know Felidar exists so it's not an issue, but it has pretty much the same problem as coalition being slightly less effective.
Hello, your sixth subscriber here. I personally would love to see coalition victory get an errata or a "fixed" version where only mono and/or maybe dual creatures counting. Therefore, making the barrier to the win higher like how it was when the card was originally printed. However, I still see this card, too, would amount to a couterspell or removal check, and that is still unfun.
Yeah, I don’t think that would be very likely in the current era of power creep 😔 I don’t think it has much to do with the conditions on the card but rather the fact that the game just ends if it resolves w/ the conditions met
If coalition victory stays banned then all other i win the game cards should also be banned for consistency. It should be unbanned because like any other big mana spell like your tooth n nail example can end the game on the spot. It is beyond easy to fizzle even at the most casual of tables and by the time your able to cast it in a game after setting up for it your late into said game and a win could come from anyone.
You could certainly make an argument for some, but the real problem isn't about power, it's that it's a boring card that realistically you would always run in any deck where your commander has all 5 pips in the cost. Boring, no real thought behind it, ends game in a wet fart. No reason to keep it around.
@malmasterson3890 u could say all those same thing about dosens of cards that are not banned. Yet it's always co victory that is the scapegoat of "it's to much". Just because u can put a card in a deck doesn't mean it'll fit into that deck. And what u find boring isn't the same for others. I find dedicated combo decks boring were you spend all game playing whack a mole taking out parts of there combo that they either replace with the same card or another similar card over and over again until u run out of answers.
@@cread13 That's why I said you could make the argument to ban many cards. Nobody denies that unfun play patterns exist. "Just because you can put a card into a deck doesn't mean it'll fit into that deck." Usually yeah you'd be absolutely right. Coalition Victory has no requirements though for any commander with 5 pips unless your manabase is completely inconsistent. You can just slot it into any Garth, Ur Dragon, Jodah Unifier, or any other commander that has 5 pips and it's just a free wincon for no investment. That's straight up boring, no way around it. You have to physically try to make the card interesting and play your deck worse than even casuals for it to even be an interesting wincon. If you don't like combo 100% get it, and I don't want another boring 1 card combo with the commander to be legal in the format. It's more of an argument to ban more of them than to unban Coalition.
@@malmasterson I mean the cost of playing coalition victory is you're playing an absolutely dogshit card that basically only ever wins the game one time and only exists to cheese wins rather than any card that isn't a piece of dead weight the vast majority of the time and actually helps you win the game and is good. why play coalition victory when I can play Maelstrom wanderer or Etali Primal Conqueror and get so far ahead I basically win on the spot in Jodah the unifer or a klauth unrivaled ancient in ur dragon which is cheaper because of ur dragon and actually benefits the standard gameplan of I'm going to beat you to death with dragons. and in the case of garth if you're building for power, you're probably just flickering garth over and over to get black lotuses again and again and can win in innumerable ways that at least have better worst cases than literally useless piece of cardboard
@malmasterson3890 it's not a 1 card combo though it requires all land types and creatures of all colors that's anywhere from 3 cards to 10 cards that have to be on field as it resolved for it to work. Most casual players will only have basics to cover the land types required with maybe a couple of the cheep multi color lands that have land types with the rest of the lands likely being ones without those land types. The cards not a boogie man that we can't let out of the closet. You'll likely never see it played past the first week of unbanning if it were to get unbanned. It's a meme card that should never been banned in the first place. Also if u dont want 1 card combo with a commander there are plenty of other way more trouble cards out there then.
Another aspect of Coalition Victory that makes it a very bad unban is that when it works, it's super lame, and when it doesn't work, say, someone swordsing your commander in response, it's also super lame. It is never a fun card whether it's working, not working, or anywhere in your deck.
@@BetterDeckbuilding Oh, I see it now. You'll need to use two counters to kill it though, because of the +1/+1 from Mikeus. But that shouldn't be a problem with two others to ping enemies. Either way, that is a gnarly combo. The only way to stop it once the guys hit the board is to kill Mike in response to the last counter's ping.
on the topic of rule 0: i found a large mtg community near me and they never rule 0. disturbing. its like 20 ppl who constantly play in all kindsa formations 3-4+ players, vastly different power levels from precon to high power casuals and somehow theyre fine with that. i'm not fine facing cyc rift or isshin style decks i'm not prepared for like wth. they even play london mulligan (without knowing its name) with no one ever suggesting an alternative for shittier, more inconsistent decks. mayhem. happy to have another regular playgroup of friends
Personally as long as the card is not repinted, i think is fine to be unbanned. Turn 8 no reaction and your commander 5 color in the cost on board, probably you deserve the win
So my honest opinion, as player in an LGS that has unbanned CV, is that the state of CV is more philosophy and signaling how scrappy and early the 'real' part of the games you want to be. Like in the example you gave of a 'surprise' CV win, I honestly feel anyone who was actually caught of guard by the player solely doing ramp and commander and functionally ignoring boardstate having a spell combo win in hand is very new. Sure it holds up on surface analysis, but any deeper and there should be warning bells. And depending on the balance of removal/interaction (looking at the fact that a lot of people claim sorcery speed interaction is inherently unviable here), sniping commander on drop isn't necessary, just holding up a mana as a warning sign. Which can lead to a lot of jostling jockeying and reading of the table. Its a different play state but I wouldn't claim it outright unfun.
You could flash in the easy enchantment win cons on your opponents end step right before your turn if you have an option to do so in play and then it's just as bad. There's even easier options. That being said, I think the easiest options should just be banned and a lot of the legal ones are still fine
CV is only usable in the battlecruiser formats where it feels the worst. The Commander banlist has always been about what makes for a fun play experience. CV should stay banned for sure.
I work in healthcare and it messes with my brain when I ask date of births of adults who are younger than my Nintendo Gamecube, I think I got into Magic a couple years ago as therapy for my midlife crisis lol seems to be helping i think
I play at a card shop with a mix of sweaty cEDH players, tinkerers like me who mostly build fun stuff like infinite squirrels, and total casuals who run with precons and nothing else. I didn't even know Rule 0 existed until I looked at the Commander rules page to see if I can kill an opponent via commander damage with his own guy ("Stop hitting yourself!") As far as I've seen, almost every match-up is fun for everybody, regardless of who wins. Casuals get their minds blown when a super-complicated combo goes off, sweats get valuable insight on their decks' blind spots when something completely off-meta manages to clown on them, and tinkerers get new ideas with every game. As far as I'm concerned, Rule 0 is just an excuse to stop other people from having fun their way.
Yeah you deliver really good arguments on why it should stay banned. Most cards in the Ban List (not only in EDH) aren't necessarily broken or too strong. But if they only include unfun playstyles or situations, then there is ultimately no reason to unban these cards. Coalition Victory is really not that good, but does it really become more fun to include Coalition Victory in the format? 5 Color Decks just gain a Card that says "I win the Game NOW, unless someone counters it or destroys my creatures aka. my Commander". So it's not unlikely for some games to just abruptly end because someone manages to cast Coalition Victory. Literally every 5 color commander would become a kill on sight, since Coalition Victory is now legal. I just don't see much reason to unban it. However since it is not a broken card, I also wouldn't mind if it ever would get unbanned. It wouldn't see that much play.
based
Rule 0 is just communication between people dressed up. The whole point of "rule 0" is to encourage people to have that pregame discussion.
It's like uno. Some experienced players like long never ending games, so they play with gimiks, homebrew rules, or more decks shuffle together. Other's like to play multiple quicker games and so adjust the rules and other aspects accordingly.
Either way you discuss the rules and what people wanna play with before changing anything. That's all rule 0 is in any game not just EDH.
When you play a a game everyone agrees to play by the rules a "rule 0" you could say.
So you were born the same year I originally started playing Magic lol that's crazy. I started during the Mirrodin block, when I was in middle school
ETA after watching your video I 100% agree with your opinion on Coalition Victory. The very first time I accidentally won a game with Simic Ascendency in my Urtet deck before its engine was even fully online really soured me on "if x then you win the game" cards. It stopped me from having fun with the deck I built, so I didn't even enjoy the victory. I immediately yeeted the card from the deck (fortunately it was a proxy and I didn't spend money on it) and made a point to let every other player know I didn't have it in the deck anymore.
And Simic Ascendency isn't even as dumb as Coalition victory because, much like other similar alternate win conditions, it makes its check for victory at the beginning of your upkeep, meaning that, after you fulfil the condition, both you and the card need to survive a full turn cycle for the win. But it basically reads "unless you kept enchantment removal or topdeck it right now I win, lol sucks to suck", which I just don't enjoy, even if I'm on the winning side.
Coming of the Second Sun is a bit less dumb, because it requires more effort to make it immediate and, thus, it is easier to stop, but I still probably wouldn't personally play it.
Yeah, the main alternate wincon I play is Halo Fountain in my Baylen deck because I thought it was funny, but I’m likely going to cut it here soon. I also have a Primal Surge deck that gets less and less fun the more I play it, so I really need to consider whether I want to keep that deck around
Thassa's Oracle is light years ahead of coalition victory. Coalition victory is really really really narrow.
It's an auto-include in 5-C decks that basically makes 5C decks unplayable because everyone hates you off the table for existing now.
I'd rather play against Shahrazad off the banlist
I think the reason it stays banned, despite being bad, is that it would basically be an auto-include in 5 color decks. Just an "I win" button if you have your commander and either enough dual lands or a prismatic omen.
My problem with Coalition Victory (and the reason that I thought it was banded) is that it is trivially easy to assemble the win condition, thus giving an advantage to 5 color decks or any other decks that can incidentally meet those requirements.
It’s not though
@@Reckl3ssGring0It is, getting all 5 Land Types by the time you have 8 mana is trivial these days.
@ “8 lands = trivially easy” what a world to live in
@@Reckl3ssGring0 You must really suck at making land drops if you aren't getting to 8 mana consistently in casual commander. Ramp spells, mana rocks, and fetches are bread and butter.
@@Reckl3ssGring0 If you have five color deck, that you would have the ingrediencies with even thinking about it
It's....fine.
Sure it's boring, but this is hardly unique (Is getting Crater Hoofed for the billionth time somehow exciting? How about Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance which only require making it to your upkeep and having the requisite life?)
What's more perplexing is that Thoracle somehow HASN'T been banned despite meeting all the same criteria (along with being far cheaper and far harder to interact with).
At least Coalition Victory ends the game at an appropriately game ending EIGHT mana. If a player can afford to spend eight mana on something, they're already firmly in 'end the game territory' anyway.
Thank you! If a player can spend that Mana, has all those lands and suitable creatures (or yeah a 5 Color Commander) out, can afford 8 mana for that and of course the sorcery doesn‘t get countered, the player either has the biggest chances to win either way, or the other players did not do nearly enough.
With all of the conditions to attain Coalition Victory, 5 different lands, 5 different creatures, and 8 mana, having it in hand, and maintaining all of this on resolution, you deserve to win the game. It's a fairly telegraphed spell or win consition because of it's reputation, and it's exclusive to WUBRG comanders, no Rakdos or Jeskai deck is dropping Coalition Victory. Outside of completely new players, players playing against a WUBRG commander won't rule out Coalition Victory and will have time to observe their behavior well before 8 mana is made available for the victory. The sheer amount of mana needed to perform CV goes well beyond the 8 mana by virtue of needing creatures on board and have them survive long enough far out strips the mana needed for things like Revel in Riches with an extra turn spell for that immediate win and Toracle.
CV is far in away the worst win consition card as it also is effectively a dead card in every state of the game except for the one where you have your victory conditions met which is far above what's required for other combos in the game.
you don't need five different lands OR five different creatures. you need a land of each type (fulfilled by two triomes among other options) and a creature of each color (a single five color creature fulfills this, and if you're playing Coalition Victory, you almost certainly have one of those in your command zone). eight mana can potentially be a steep cost esp with the colored requirements but you're in five color so you should be running a ton of color fixing and rocks anyway.
@rascalqueen5426 and again, it's all a steep mana sink to set the Victory up, you still need to search or draw the Victory, you still need to succeed in having your commander on board which will be at least 5 mana to cast your commander on top of just casting CV. Not to mention all of the opposition you'll face as soon as people see you positioning the pieces for a reputable card like CV, anything from counter spells and targeted removal to board wipes and player removal puts CV to a halt. Considering the magnitude of other cheaper and easier combos and win conditions, CV can have a chance to see if it has a place in Commander.
Except "5 creatures and 5 lands" is not the condition. To even put Coalition Victory in your deck, you need a 5c commander. While cards such as Morophon or Kyodai have a 5c identity while not being 5c, these are a minority, and you wouldn't be running it in those decks. If your commander is 5c, it singlehandedly fulfills the 2nd condition.
As for the first condition: This can also be fulfilled by a single Everywhere token, though more realistically it'll get fulfilled by 2-3 lands. Just by running triomes/surveil lands, you can easily get all types before hitting 6-8 lands.
And for the record: Despite just going over how easy it is to fulfill, I am still for unbanning the card. It costs 8 mana. Omniscience is 10 mana, and they could just straight up print "win the game" on it and I wouldn't care at that cost (and that's essentially what it does already). Coalition Victory at least has a condition, even if it's easy to meet. And any instant speed creature removal makes it an 8 mana do literally nothing.
@@alicetheaxolotl I love that land removal gets missed from the conversation. Popping a Triome with a Ghost Quarters or Field of Ruin sets the land condition back two land types. Again, the 8 mana on Coalition Victory is a lie because of the need for creatures. And once again, if the deck's goal is to win through Coalition Victory, it demands finding the spell one way or another and is a heavily telegraphed movement.
@otterfire4712 I actually was going to mention land removal in my comment initially, but decided to only bring up creature removal because I didn't think you could reliably set it back with just 1 Field of Ruin. So I decided to put that to the test with 10 hands of 6 cards (10 triomes, 10 tap duals, 1 of each basic, with 15 untyped lands). The other 60 that would be in an actual deck are irrelevant since we only care how many types they have at 6 lands. I assumed they would have Sol Ring with every hand, which is a very bold assumption, but less lands makes it easier to disrupt. And I used Moxfield's online shuffler to avoid inadvertently rigging results with poor shuffling.
For transparency, I redid 3 hands because those hands did not draw all 5 basic types, since I think it is a safe assumption that a player would not cast CV with only 4 types. Now as for the actual results:
While getting them down to 4 types with a *_Strip Mine_* was much more consistent than I expected (7 hands lose to a Strip Mine), every single one of those hands can still win through Field of Ruin or Ghost Quarters with the fetched basic. But, I will concede that land destruction that doesn't replace it with a basic was still much more effective than expected.
Imo winning with coalition victory isnt much different from a lot of combo wins. At least coalition victory forces you to have some pieces on board for it.
The main difference I tried to point out in the video is that dealing with CV is much harder if you don’t know about it. If I see someone playing Ashnod’s Altar, I’m much more inclined to believe that’s an infinite combo piece even when I don’t know for a fact that it is. Without knowing about CV ahead of time, a 5C commander looks pretty innocuous when thinking about a combo kill.
1, it requires 1 piece if you're playing any 5 color commander with 5 pips in the cost. There's absolutely other wincons that are stronger, but it's just so trivial that it's boring af to see so why unban it.
@@malmasterson you need all basic lands types too. it requires itself, (Sorcery), a commander (Creature) and most likely an Enchantment like Leyline of the Guildpact or Prismatic Omen for maximum efficiency (meaning you would also need 1 land).
@jackveith2416 Yes, and Triomes, Shocks, and Surveils make that so trivially easy it's not worth considering. You really don't need a Leyline when you have a typical EDHREC manabase. You'll assemble all 5 without even thinking, so all you need is to cast your commander & then cast Coalition.
Absolutely insane that thoracle is legal but this card isn’t.
I have a soft spot for the card, as I was playing a lot of Magic back when this card was Standard legal. My friends and I were playing a LOT of Invasion Block Limited, and we all hated opening this card. (Congratulations! The rare from your Apoc pack is un-playable!) All the Timmys at the shop looked at it as a fun card to build around in Limited, and we had fun proving them wrong.
Again, I played a LOT of IB limited that year, and only ever saw Coalition Victory win a game twice. It was always very impressive when it happened... Because it almost NEVER happened.
Nope, made me feel young.
CAUSE I'M A 2006ER GET REKT
In all seriousness though, I totally agree. All the other arguments I've seen for coalition victory just sounded a little hollow to me. "Oh, it's not powerful enough to *actually* see any play, just unban it!" "Oh, it wins too quickly, just leave it."
Neither of those get to the core reason why this card is banned, which is that is just makes for unfun play patterns almost every time it's played and sequential times after that. It's like trying to play a 2-card gimmick deck where one of the cards is your commander and then getting surprised when people remove your commander on the spot.
2:07 Deserved. The wages of playing farewell (sin)
I took it out of the deck because of that
When it comes to debates like this, I always wonder if Thassa's Oracle being playable is just to keep CEDH in the state that it's in.
Coalition is too weak for CEDH, but too strong / boring for most casual tables.
I think its insane that ThOracle, Felidar Soverign, and others are playable when Coalition isnt, but I wonder how much of that is now a status quo of competitive vs casual or something.
Felidar sovereign?? xD
I think the social nature has kept Thoracle in it's play, and I don't think most know Felidar exists so it's not an issue, but it has pretty much the same problem as coalition being slightly less effective.
Hello, your sixth subscriber here. I personally would love to see coalition victory get an errata or a "fixed" version where only mono and/or maybe dual creatures counting. Therefore, making the barrier to the win higher like how it was when the card was originally printed. However, I still see this card, too, would amount to a couterspell or removal check, and that is still unfun.
Yeah, I don’t think that would be very likely in the current era of power creep 😔 I don’t think it has much to do with the conditions on the card but rather the fact that the game just ends if it resolves w/ the conditions met
wait I'm older than wtf. good video thought I just gotta... I just gotta take minute
Haha yep 2003!
@BetterDeckbuilding I'm 02 so it just a gap of a year, but still
If coalition victory stays banned then all other i win the game cards should also be banned for consistency.
It should be unbanned because like any other big mana spell like your tooth n nail example can end the game on the spot. It is beyond easy to fizzle even at the most casual of tables and by the time your able to cast it in a game after setting up for it your late into said game and a win could come from anyone.
You could certainly make an argument for some, but the real problem isn't about power, it's that it's a boring card that realistically you would always run in any deck where your commander has all 5 pips in the cost. Boring, no real thought behind it, ends game in a wet fart. No reason to keep it around.
@malmasterson3890 u could say all those same thing about dosens of cards that are not banned. Yet it's always co victory that is the scapegoat of "it's to much". Just because u can put a card in a deck doesn't mean it'll fit into that deck. And what u find boring isn't the same for others. I find dedicated combo decks boring were you spend all game playing whack a mole taking out parts of there combo that they either replace with the same card or another similar card over and over again until u run out of answers.
@@cread13 That's why I said you could make the argument to ban many cards. Nobody denies that unfun play patterns exist.
"Just because you can put a card into a deck doesn't mean it'll fit into that deck." Usually yeah you'd be absolutely right. Coalition Victory has no requirements though for any commander with 5 pips unless your manabase is completely inconsistent. You can just slot it into any Garth, Ur Dragon, Jodah Unifier, or any other commander that has 5 pips and it's just a free wincon for no investment. That's straight up boring, no way around it. You have to physically try to make the card interesting and play your deck worse than even casuals for it to even be an interesting wincon.
If you don't like combo 100% get it, and I don't want another boring 1 card combo with the commander to be legal in the format. It's more of an argument to ban more of them than to unban Coalition.
@@malmasterson I mean the cost of playing coalition victory is you're playing an absolutely dogshit card that basically only ever wins the game one time and only exists to cheese wins rather than any card that isn't a piece of dead weight the vast majority of the time and actually helps you win the game and is good. why play coalition victory when I can play Maelstrom wanderer or Etali Primal Conqueror and get so far ahead I basically win on the spot in Jodah the unifer or a klauth unrivaled ancient in ur dragon which is cheaper because of ur dragon and actually benefits the standard gameplan of I'm going to beat you to death with dragons. and in the case of garth if you're building for power, you're probably just flickering garth over and over to get black lotuses again and again and can win in innumerable ways that at least have better worst cases than literally useless piece of cardboard
@malmasterson3890 it's not a 1 card combo though it requires all land types and creatures of all colors that's anywhere from 3 cards to 10 cards that have to be on field as it resolved for it to work. Most casual players will only have basics to cover the land types required with maybe a couple of the cheep multi color lands that have land types with the rest of the lands likely being ones without those land types. The cards not a boogie man that we can't let out of the closet. You'll likely never see it played past the first week of unbanning if it were to get unbanned. It's a meme card that should never been banned in the first place. Also if u dont want 1 card combo with a commander there are plenty of other way more trouble cards out there then.
Another aspect of Coalition Victory that makes it a very bad unban is that when it works, it's super lame, and when it doesn't work, say, someone swordsing your commander in response, it's also super lame. It is never a fun card whether it's working, not working, or anywhere in your deck.
That Mike & Trike combo is neat, but am I missing something or does it need another card to give your creatures -2/-2 in order to be an infinite ping?
You use the last counter on Triskelion on itself! So it will become a 1/1 with one damage on it and die, then be brought back via Undying
@@BetterDeckbuilding Oh, I see it now. You'll need to use two counters to kill it though, because of the +1/+1 from Mikeus. But that shouldn't be a problem with two others to ping enemies. Either way, that is a gnarly combo. The only way to stop it once the guys hit the board is to kill Mike in response to the last counter's ping.
"Rule Zero doesn't work, but also there's pods that unspokenly avoid combos."
on the topic of rule 0: i found a large mtg community near me and they never rule 0. disturbing. its like 20 ppl who constantly play in all kindsa formations 3-4+ players, vastly different power levels from precon to high power casuals and somehow theyre fine with that. i'm not fine facing cyc rift or isshin style decks i'm not prepared for like wth. they even play london mulligan (without knowing its name) with no one ever suggesting an alternative for shittier, more inconsistent decks. mayhem. happy to have another regular playgroup of friends
Personally as long as the card is not repinted, i think is fine to be unbanned.
Turn 8 no reaction and your commander 5 color in the cost on board, probably you deserve the win
Commander games should have a time limit after which the game is draw.
So my honest opinion, as player in an LGS that has unbanned CV, is that the state of CV is more philosophy and signaling how scrappy and early the 'real' part of the games you want to be. Like in the example you gave of a 'surprise' CV win, I honestly feel anyone who was actually caught of guard by the player solely doing ramp and commander and functionally ignoring boardstate having a spell combo win in hand is very new. Sure it holds up on surface analysis, but any deeper and there should be warning bells. And depending on the balance of removal/interaction (looking at the fact that a lot of people claim sorcery speed interaction is inherently unviable here), sniping commander on drop isn't necessary, just holding up a mana as a warning sign. Which can lead to a lot of jostling jockeying and reading of the table. Its a different play state but I wouldn't claim it outright unfun.
You could flash in the easy enchantment win cons on your opponents end step right before your turn if you have an option to do so in play and then it's just as bad. There's even easier options. That being said, I think the easiest options should just be banned and a lot of the legal ones are still fine
wait a minute, I was also 3 when it was banned 😳
CV is only usable in the battlecruiser formats where it feels the worst.
The Commander banlist has always been about what makes for a fun play experience. CV should stay banned for sure.
I was 6 when it was banned.
I was also 3 when it was banned lmao
I work in healthcare and it messes with my brain when I ask date of births of adults who are younger than my Nintendo Gamecube, I think I got into Magic a couple years ago as therapy for my midlife crisis lol seems to be helping i think
Based that youre my brothers age
Hello fellow 20 year old 👋
Subbed immediately after the rule 0 slander. Rule 0 culture is, as far as I'm concerned, the worst thing about the commander format.
I play at a card shop with a mix of sweaty cEDH players, tinkerers like me who mostly build fun stuff like infinite squirrels, and total casuals who run with precons and nothing else. I didn't even know Rule 0 existed until I looked at the Commander rules page to see if I can kill an opponent via commander damage with his own guy ("Stop hitting yourself!") As far as I've seen, almost every match-up is fun for everybody, regardless of who wins. Casuals get their minds blown when a super-complicated combo goes off, sweats get valuable insight on their decks' blind spots when something completely off-meta manages to clown on them, and tinkerers get new ideas with every game. As far as I'm concerned, Rule 0 is just an excuse to stop other people from having fun their way.
I'm sorry but you failed the litmus test :(
Also, your argument can be used to literally countless other cards.
Yeah you deliver really good arguments on why it should stay banned. Most cards in the Ban List (not only in EDH) aren't necessarily broken or too strong. But if they only include unfun playstyles or situations, then there is ultimately no reason to unban these cards. Coalition Victory is really not that good, but does it really become more fun to include Coalition Victory in the format? 5 Color Decks just gain a Card that says "I win the Game NOW, unless someone counters it or destroys my creatures aka. my Commander". So it's not unlikely for some games to just abruptly end because someone manages to cast Coalition Victory. Literally every 5 color commander would become a kill on sight, since Coalition Victory is now legal. I just don't see much reason to unban it. However since it is not a broken card, I also wouldn't mind if it ever would get unbanned. It wouldn't see that much play.
How dare you be born in 2007 😅😅😅
2003 dont worry 😅
Should be unbanned. The ban list should only consider power and not lameness, salt, anti-climax-ness, etc.