Villainpedia: Edwin VanCleef
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- He did nothing wrong. I agree this time.
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Defias Brotherhood Questchain Guide by Hamsterwheel: • The Defias Brotherhood...
00:00 - Intro
02:29 - Crafted by War
06:22 - Big Job
10:05 - The Big Mistake
18:24 - Into the Wild
22:33 - A Band of Adventurers
29:53 - Legacy and Outro
#edwin#vancleef#nothingwrong#defias#brotherhood#wow#classic#wrath#tbc#villain#villainpedia - Ігри
Van Cleef's most villainous arc was his role in the miracle rogue hearthstone meta
He wasn't a real villian he was treated like garbage and he diden't wanted to lick onyxia's feets
THE BROTHERHOOD SHALL PREVAIL (10x)
PRIEST OR ROGUE.
@@suron9135 Rogue always
@@petersander5802 fine, I’ll do it myself
I always loved classic wow for it's more down to earth narrative and feel where the world didn't feel like it was in constant danger. Where you felt like some random adventurer not the champion of your faction and savior of the world.
yes, it feels more real and personal than grand world scale threats that are the norm these days
I mean by the end of classic you saved the world from what 5 or so potential world ending threats if you raided.
@@michaelkeha true lol i guess i just wish that there were more stories like that and vanilla had a lot of low level content
The world ending threats in classic were more C and B tier in story or power. compared to threats like kil’jaden or The Lich King.
@@Mr_Edwards_1995 It doesn't really matter if they are c or b tier they are still way above the pay grade of a basic adventurer
Edwin VanCleef has ALWAYS been my favorite character in the WoW universe. Everything about him just clicked with me. Something fascinating to note, it's mentioned that VanCleef has an ordinary appearance, an unremarkable face. I enjoy the theory of a double taking his place during the fight and him living on in the shadows to this day
"Through different eyes a man called a terrorist could be a freedom fighter if he's fighting for the side you're with."
Many such cases
Osama ❤️
As someone who ended up playing a human rogue during TBC and did all those quests I've got a soft spot for the Defias knuckleheads and the mask was BiS for looks until level 60+
I agree. I only have 2 rogues. One Hrd, one Aly, both wear red masks.
@Klein kitty with a mask 😂
You weren’t a real rogue until you had that red mask. Especially human. Finding one was like your backstabby quinceañera.
Don't want to sound para-social, but your video's mean a lot to me and give me a break from all the bullshit going on all the time. Keep it up man your passion shines through your video's
love you mr booga, together we will get through the bullshit
And ill guard your backs so you dont get flanked by bullshit
Ditto
And you have my bow!
A stone mason coming back to a destroyed home town is like wining the lottery he will have work for years. Might even become a merchamt from all that wealth.
Thats why negotiations are important
Exactly! It is almost extortionist of them to even demand payment beyond what they need! Think about it: In essence, this guy comes to you and says "Well I could give you a roof over your head for the amount of money I demand, or you can die in the winter."
That is what the stone mason GUILD (so a monopoly on stone work) did to the kingdom of Stormwind as a whole! And then they killed the queen when the extorted did not bow down to them anymore!
Van Cleef did everything wrong. And I, as a player, was right to cut his head of for countless times!
@@spontaneousbootay "Swords." That's why _swords_ are important.
Yeah if they pay him.
I'd go as far as to say Edwin is a parallel to Varian:
-They both worked honestly for the sake of Stormwind and their people
-They both got manipulated by lady Dark
-They both get enraged by pollitical shenannigans
-Edwin wanted revenge for his guild and started riots and stuff, Varian wanted revenge for the queen and slaughtered the rioters.
-They both stop at nothing to get what they want and pretty much never considered giving up
The difference is that Varian get a lot - and I mean A LOT - of help from people everywhere, including the horde.
Edwin gets shunned and is left to his own devices.
Another key difference is that Varian is able to change and compromise, while Edwin became more and more inflexible and irrational.
Here's a suggestion:
Villianpedia: Senator Armstrong
and Jetstream Sam!
Heropedia, I think you mean.
Standing here i realised
@@topad770 you were just like me
@@CC-io6os didn't he want to like, legalize murder
this channel is a goldmine of videogame lore
heheh
u mean deadmine of videogame lore? badumtss
Except gold mines are 99% worthless rocks. This is solid gold! or at least like 12 karat
i swear to god
I had no idea that VanCleef had such a deep and even kind of relatable story. Rather see him go out the way he did, it would have been great to be able to side with him or mediate the conflict in some way in the game. Great video once again, Ghost!
It would be nice to see the story writers do a similar over-arching story to this in a new expansion (or pie-in-the-sky, a relaunching of wow, clean slate post current wow on new engine etc). There are plenty of similarly betrayed and jaded characters and groups to draw on to make into a defias-like group with relatable human motivations. Would be nice to have some places finally updated to take into account the efforts and effects of players, quests, story etc. Places completed their rebuilding, some places destroyed or damaged, return of people and farms to one area, while others being partially abandoned/depopulated and struggling.
Or a side quest in Shadowlands where Edwin confronts Anduin but cant muster up the anger to be mad at him because he was responsible for his mother's death. Fuck that would have been so cool.
Loved the "You must gather your party before venturing forth" nod to Bauldur's Gate! Great series of videos you've made on villains. Very glad I've subscribed!
Another great video! VanCleef holds a special place in my heart, and I really didn’t expect to see him here. You should totally cover Irenicus from Baldur’s Gate 2. Holy shit, what a villain.
Holy shit indeed. I was blown away by how amazing Irenicus is as a villain. He was the main draw for why I kept playing BG2 even though it was so new to me. I learned to play a game I hated mechanically because the story was just. So. Good.
I’m stealing this entire story for my D&D campaign and giving VanCleef a proper sendoff. I just hope I have what it takes to write the story needed if they do decide to join him.
You probably don't, considering you are literally admitting to stealing another franchises story to pawn off as your own.
He is the best villain I've ever met. Damn that video made me cry. I wish that Blizzard did a Defias-themed raid back then in classic.
As far as minor villains go in Warcraft Edwin is one that deserves some kind of expansion such as a short story from his perspective.
Could of made it part of the Bronze dragon flight stuff in Tarnaris. (Desert in southern Kalimdor)
My favorite villain. Love him. Sucks that there's not much room for a Defias plot because the Defias were absorbed into the Uncrowned.
28:51 Yes! I always wanted to join Edwin and the Defias, take up their struggle.
Being railroaded into killing him was such a disappointment.
the struggle of... killing the queen? burning down stormwind? You know you can just play horde right? like what even is the endgame by the time of the events in classic..? they don't stand for anything at that point, they'd been reduced to simple bandits. Even being charitable; the best they got is a 'revolution' wherein they kill the SW nobles and, what ......take their place?
I will say; there is one way they could have made it a little more interesting. Could have sent the defias to align themselves with the horde. Would have been a cool twist, but then again humans are racist as fuck in this game so.
Edwin Van Cleef's Story is so relatable, that even i, as a gardener would join his cause.
Doesn't matter what foul shadowplay is at work in the background, for me the nobles of Stormwind treated him in the most unfair way possible.
a gardener joining the ranks of vancleef, sounds like a cool sidestory
@@KingLich451 Doesn't Stormwind have got a garden district? Also the gardens in the backyard of the castle? A gardener could easily spy on the royalty of Stormwind and no one would notice it.
In the end, we're just the humble always working gardeners. Nobody expects anything bad from us.
And yes, you're right this could make up for a cool sidestory.
The Brotherhood shall prevail!
You are phenomenal at telling a story about nuanced villains. I went from not knowing or caring about this stonemason chap to devouring your other villain videos.
Brizzard was villifying unions from the start.
You're one of my favorite new UA-camrs that i've come across recently, and you inspire me to start my own youtube journey. Keep up the amazing videos, I've exhausted all of your -pedia series videos and it's a delight every time I see a new one.
First time seeing the warcraft movie edited with some lore, so nice!
You are truly an underrated channel. I found it by pure accident, and I've been in love with it since then. You probably hear this a lot, but I truly appreciate your great work!
Man. I just wanna say that EVERY time you post it's the first thing i click. Your video structure, hosting and info is always great.
I don't know anything about 60% of the characters you post but i absolutely love learning about them. Excellent channel
Edwin Vancleef is one of my favorite characters. Not because he's very deep or anything, but his unique design really sparked my joy as a kid
Edit: Plus he dual wields swords and I thought that was the coolest shit
Defias: We fight for the common people!
Also the Defias: Burn farmers fields and salt the earth and be shocked when the farmers form a militia to fight them
Exactly!
26:45
That's what I like about tabletop RPGs. Yeah, you're still a group of clowns in armor, but the story isn't set in stone to always end in the same way. Imagine being able to join Edwin to siege Stormwind. That would be really cool.
Dude - gets robbed by nobility and state wants him and his men to die for queen stupidly entering a riot zone.
Player - murders him.
I hope you feel good about yourself MURDERERS.
"Do you feel like a hero yet?"
I feel pretty alright about killing the leader of a criminal empire.
His fall was tragic, but it was a terrible fall and he had to go down. His crimes became too great and the path he walked too crooked.
It was the inevitable conclusion to his actions. It wasn't perfect justice, but it was justice nonetheless.
@@TheCandidPygmy nope this situation reminds me exactly of the killdozer guy. When you make a reasonable man unreasonable you cannot put the blame on him for your actions and in this case it was the nobilities error.. even if they were corrupted when you give your word you follow it regardless
He led the riots, he deserves some of the fault for instigating the violent uprisings, even if it was a justified grievance. The nobles have a huge role to play in the event but ultimately VC was the last opportunity to avoid violence. An eye for an eye makes the world blind after all. Instead, he fell victim to his desire for summary justice and ultimately killed his biggest supporter. His people committed regicide which cannot be allowed to stand in any kingdom, accident or no. Simply because it upends the entire political order to go unanswered. This completely puts aside the entire "criminal empire" aspect of his story. Ultimately, if he wanted revenge on the nobles, then that's where he should have gone. Instead, his people terrorized the locals and pillaged their way across their own homeland. He could have been a folk hero to the people, but instead he put that aside in favor of darker desires.
He deserved justice. He got it in the end. Not by heroes, but by his countrymen.
@@hi14993 Dude, you're drunk or what?
He did not start violent riots, he started protests which turned to fighting guards once guards were sent to forcefully pacify them and while the queen got gibbed with a thrown rock the question remains - why didn't she order the guards to stand down beforehand so she'd enter a group of agitated people and not a combat zone?
What he started wasn't violent by nature until he was cast out BY SUMARY "JUSTICE" THAT MADE ALL OF THEM OUTLAWS (he did not rebel against entire realm but against nobility that screwed him over since that was a democratic-ish decision by House of Nobels.
The entire nobility screwed him over so he rebelled only against guilty party, not everybody.
As it was said, his group didn't terrorize locals from the start - but a group has to eat and has to gather resources in order to stage a successful rebellion.
Nobility had army of guards and pretty nice walls they didn't pay for while he had a group of people that would starve in 3 days so everything nobility had to do was closing the gates and look at them starving.
This is the problem - you see somebody that went for insane revenge quest, I see somebody whose hand was forced the entire time as he went with the minimal injustices he had to do to punish nobles.
It's not like he wanted to rule, not like he had some idiotic political system in mind, wanted to change religion, world or ethnic background - he was not a terrorist.
All nobility had to do was apologize and pay them (and turn back their outlaw status depending on where it the story are we) but unfortunately once all legal ways to pursue justice are lost we have to go by creed of Saint Heemayer of heavy equipment "Sometimes reasonable men have to do unreasonable things"
It's funny to think that this is essentially the background of Megatron, leader of the Decepticons. He was a worker in the mines, wrote poetry opposing the classist state (at the time, your alt-mode/vehicle-mode determined your 'use,' thus your lot in life), inspired his co-workers, gained a following. He eventually got into underground gladiator rings to better defend himself in the ensuing riots, and the rest is a steady spiral down just the same
Hey man, I'm currently doing my own take on Warcraft on a Dungeons and Dragons game I master. I setted it around the wotlk timeline, and this video just gave me soooooooo much needed backstory for the Defias, VanCleef and the co! Really appreciated it ^^ Now I feel like my game is so much richer
I have a digital copy of the D20 ruleset for WOW if you want a copy for free.
yo thats awesome i was actually planning on doing the same eventually
I've just gone through a lot of your videos, instant sub. I rarely comment as well. But this is some quality work. Really enjoyable and in depth. Keep up the fantastic work!
You should do one of these for Stalvan Mistmantle also, specifically the original vanilla version of his questline was so epic for just low level quests, with so much backstory if you actually read all those journal pages you were collecting for the quests.
Dude been addicted to your videos lately hooked me with the Dagoth Ur Villainpedia and been nonstop ever since, particularly everything elderscrolls. You should REALLY do an NPCpedia on Jiub *ahem* "saint" Jiub you know that dunmer that wakes you up in morrowind? Commited Cliff River Genocide, died at the battle of kvatch, became a Saint, definitely deserves a deep dive
Ghostcharm bro I love getting notifs for your videos they’re so well edited and have so much effort and passion put into them and they’re great to listen and watch whenever possible, hope to see lots more
I have literally ZERO interest in WoW, but I could listen to you talk about anything.
how is this guys content so engaging yet so relaxing at the same time, crazy
Just found your channel today and I'm loving this Villainpedia stuff.
just stumbled on ur channel on my recommended and binged all of your vids! keep up the good content my man!!!
I think that a good addition to the villainpedia would be Cat-Lon, from Kenshi. A long insane robot with a distaste for humans, thralling his brothers and calling them traitors.
28:42 That's one of the issues with older games for sure. It happens in a game like Oblivion too. If you aren't actively reading quest text, as well as picking up, reading through, absorbing and piecing together the info provided in the plethora of books and notes you're offered along the way in a lot of quests to get some perspective on what you're actually doing, you can end up missing quite literally the entire story.
It's definitely a double-edged sword. Because while that is a very real possibility, I like that they at least had the confidence to put so much depth into characters who ultimately have three short lines in their respective boss fights, whose lore many will certainly miss just by focusing on the experience points. Most probably don't even know what actually went on through all of the Defias quests from back then to this day. Deadmines was just one of the first dungeons people could do for a lot of really great loot and elite quest experience. Still, I highly prefer that to a character like Sylvanas (as she's been written in the recent years of WoW). They tried to make her schemes appealing to everyone, all but shoving her down your throat for multiple years worth of cinematics, main story quests, and patch content straight, and all that did was sour her to so many who aren't even aware of how cool she used to be. Devastated the legacy of what was once one of the most badass, interesting, and complex OG characters out of WC3.
And ironically, now that I'm thinking about it, they did have the Lich King pitch his side of all of it around when he kills everyone in his Icecrown Citadel fight. The prospect of us, the world's mightiest champions, being risen to serve as his elite in the world that he's planning to create was probably enticing to many. Even now, thinking about an Azeroth totally dominated by Undeath is awesome. That is, if we're disregarding all of the incredibly disappointing, supposedly gigabrain mind control nonsense attributed to the Jailer in Shadowlands.
Mist of Pandaria as one of the Lich King undead servant would definitely be something else. That would have been awesome!
Difficult to do it another way though or you'd have people spending an entire day doing a quest chain for some smaller character in an mmo. I've always been partial to this type of story telling; it's big reason I'm such a huge fan of fromsoft's games (besides their overall quality). Many people who play MMOs really don't care about the story so doing it this way makes it totally optional but easily available for the people who do want to (literally) read into it. Couldn't agree more about Sylvanas as well as some other characters.
These videos makes me miss when I was hooked on wow and it was still good so much...
It will never be the same again.
Dragonflight looks great.
Wow Classic SOD is a blast
I had seen other videos of yours, and I liked it, but now that I see this one I am going to subscribe, because I see that you are another adventurous comrade who once roamed the lands of Azeroth and beyond, and still keeps a corner in his heart for that world, for the real World of Warcraft and not the rotting corpse it has become
This channel deserves more popularity
Your videos are freakin great , did not play warcraft or wow that much but always been interested in the lore, story around it and the way you present it make me emotionally invested , and I love it! G'day to you mate :)
You’re an incredible narrator and writer. Love watching your videos and particularly this series on Villains.
i only know the skyrim characters on your channel but i love your writing and directing on these videos so much i have to watch each one
Could easily branch off this into a Heropedia with Mathias Shaw. Or another villainpedia with Vanessa Vancleef and her role in the rogue story line in Legion. The Uncrowned organization and all that.
Not only that, you kill him and after that, his belived daughter is killed by you too by Stormwind guard command.
dude I love the Warcraft 3 vibe your World of Warcraft videos have
specially love the Warcraft 3 music you have in the background
makes this video so much better
Loving all of these villains and heroes video! Someone I wouldn't mind seeing a villain/hero video on would be Urza from Magic: The Gathering
If, Edwin has rallied WITH, Westfall rather than against them I think he either would have broke away to form a new nation, or maybe even would have won against, Stormwind.
Because of the eco-political situation with, Westfall not receiving aid and falling into destitution, Westfall would likely have loved to stand with, Ed against the heartless nobles IF he had worked with the local residents; helping them build homes, sewing crops, and using his criminal contacts to smuggle in supplies for the people, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
Man, I love your videos. Your narration is great and quality is superb. A passion project that's for sure
WHAT? i played 15 years alliance and never heard that SW was "stolen" from the workers or vancleef beeing more then a thief
WOW crazy what you can learn in 1 video.
This is so far my favorite series on youtube. Good job on this!
I’m so glad to have found this channel! Keep up the great content Ghost!
What a channel! Its simply awesome to hear you and your content. Such an amazing work!
As a Horde player, doing the Deadmines dungeon for the first time will always click with me.
If you're coming at the Alliance from the angle of "They are racist, religious zealots that wants us exterminated" and then you go into Deadmines and learn that this Dungeon is what happens when their own people stand up against them, it amplifies your hatred for "the other side" so brilliantly.
Early World of Warcraft did this in such a beautiful way where if you had played 30 levels of one race, on one side, you were convinced that your side was in the right and the enemy was in the wrong. The themes were so well done.
Loved the gnome hitting lag while he was running 😂
I always felt the weight of the battle against can Cleef as he emerged weapons drawn from his cabin.
He pulls so many strings, he’s omnipresent, and he is down to earth. Of course he’d try take us out if we just waltzed into his lair.
It took me a solid 5 minutes to place where that MtG art is from. (25:40 mark) Love the utilization of it.
Pro: the “played like a fiddle” line had a clip to go with it
Con: the clip was not Kazuhara Miller
Fools our cause is righteous! The brotherhood shall prevail! Excellent video good sir was a joy to watch. Kudos.⚔️🍀⚒️
Brilliant! Thank you for sharing all this insight. Edwin, in my humble opinion, deserves a movie or a season in a series at least.
Even better than your Arthas video I just watched. I was equally familiar with Edwin's story, the Stonemason Guild, their rebuilding of Stormwind and the plotting of Onyixia that set everything into motion, but hearing in through your storytelling made it even more vivid and engaging. While watching I came back to a thought I've had many times about how Warcraft the movie was a product of bad timing more than anything. When Blizzard first started plotting the movie, streaming was still rather new and novel and even Netflix wasn't producing their own content so the idea of a series based on a video game was kind of unheard of. Based on the history of video game movies it was enough of a gamble just making a 1 off movie. Times are so different now and I keep thinking how great all these 2nd and 3rd and 4th tier stories from Warcraft could be turned into great fantasy genre series. I'm watching this video on Edwin VanCleef and I'm immediately thinking about Cassian Andor and how great that series was despite it not having any of the major characters, conflicts or lore of the greater Star Wars universe. Could VanCleef carry a whole season just on his story? Perhaps not, but it shows just how much is there in established Warcraft lore to work with. I'd see it more as one of multiple plot lines simultamously going on like GoT handled so well even when those individual story arcs didn't meet up or cross paths at some point. There's just so many unique facets to Warcraft I really hope "The Powers That Be" (Microsoft?) revisit the idea of branching back out into scripted content, preferably a series. I'm off to watch Warcraft movie video now. Well done!
The algorithm is gonna bless this channel any day now
Please do a video on the Penitent One OR Escribar/ The High Wills. I absolutely love the game and it's lore. I know there may not be a ton of info to go off of being that the game is relatively new. But I'd love to hear your breakdown. Thanks!!
Vanilla unironically peaks with Van Cleef.
You go from a boots on the ground local hero to some world saving chosen one regularly invading lairs and murdering dozens of dragons and undead lords after you kill Van Cleef.
With WoW: Classic WoTLK launching this year, I would love to see more about the Warcraft villains especially those connected to that story!
what are they gonna go after wotlk
@@KingLich451 Well obviously each expansion for as long as there is an interest.
hm
that whole queen - stone macon incident is actually way better writing than the habitual Warcraft lore
please can you do caesar from fallout new vegas for a new villianpedia?
Yes please
As a kid playing this in 2004, who didn’t read the quest text i missed out on this epic story… recently playing sod as an older man now involved in free masonry, this quest was amazing.
The key of doing good is to do it despite all problems it may cause you.
VanCleef, tragically, could not make that choice as a leader, and so became a criminal and villain just as planned by the Broodmother. But a tragic villain is still a villain - see Dagoth Ur, betrayed and driven mad by former friends; or the Master, noble intentions fine through the cruelest of means.
Regarding the intro, I personally think that Lautrec is the only villanpedia character that doesn’t really fall under a villain category, considering the fact that the majority of souls characters are always deeper than they seem at first glance. I definitely think that the killing of Anastacia was out of mercy, definitely don’t think he’s a hero, but he isn’t a villain either.
Anyway, love your videos hope you have a great day :)
I just found your channel and really enjoy your content, idk if you’ll see this with this being so far back but I think you’ll enjoy doing a villanpedia on savathun from destiny
She’s got some insane lore going on right now
"You're not given artifacts willy nilly" - this man is still in the year 2014.
im talkin about vanilla wow when I say that so - 2004
@@Ghostcharm Oh wow you read my throwaway joke! That was a joke about wow, moreso than your commentary. Hey, do you think *The Narrator in The Stanley Parable* belongs in Villainopedia?
Thanks for releasing the most rewatchable content ever
Who knew that bandits could be so captivating and sympathetic. Awesome villain, awesome video.
Blizzard needs to make an animated standalone of VanCleef
I love Edwin, his plight is sympathetic and he isn't some larger than life mustache twirler, as you said, he's literally just *a guy.*
Also, I can't wait for the inevitable Illidan episode.
Love your videos! Been watching for a few month now! Keep it up!
Thanks for doing the good work, might be redundant with Hirumared but I'd like to hear your take on Stalvan from the Duskwood questline
You’d think the guy that built stormwind would realize it didn’t have a harbor to attack with his shiny new boat.
Yeah I originally got stuck in Westfall for a very long time. Thank Horde players for somehow killing my quest npc on respawn for three hours straight, 4 days in a row.
Then I just rolled a Night Elf and played onwards on Kalimdor.
This is one of the best videos on the Defias Brotherhood and Van Cleef I've seen
Edwin not only preached but practiced solidarity til his death. A Champion of the working class.
If I hear that music I want to immediately jump back in.
Keep these coming, I love it!
Srsly hope you do one on Porky from EarthBound/MOTHER 3. That psychosis is a half hour dissertation waiting to happen. Him and Kreia from KotOR 2. Masterfully done villains in their own ways.
Ghost, love watching your channel grow. You’re such a chill and down to earth dude. Love the content.
these videos NEED more views. i love these
Chancellor Lei Shen did nothing wrong! He was only trying to protect the pandaric republic from the mantid threat. Thats why he had to form the Mogu Empire
I aint gonna lie I tended to skip a lot of the reading in WoW so the only story I learnt was from other players or videos... I had no idea this was VanCleef's backstory and holy hell do I feel guilty now for farming Deadmines.
Screw that, down with the Nobles!
If you want to get some nice warcraft lore, I can recommend Nobbel87. A youtube channel that covered most of warcrafts lore over the years. And the guy is quite sympathic if you ask me. Though, sadly after the ending to shadowlands, he lost interest in WoW lore.
Deadmines
I've never actually played WoW, but Edwin does seem like the rather tragic character. He stood up for his workers who gave their all like a good boss would, but everything began to slip south with the lack of proper payment from the nobles.
I'd love to see a video about the game Prey. Not a lot of people really talking about it, to my knowledge, and I personally think it's a great game
Hey Ghost, love your videos, they're extremely addicting. Here's a sugestion: ANY villian or hero from Starcraft 1. Kerrigan, Arcturus Mengsk, Raynor, anyone.
I'm seriously impressed by the dedication, ingenuity, and compassion you have for each project. Please keep it up. All your content is enjoyable.
One villain I would love to see done is Jon Irenicus in Baldur’s Gate 2 ❤️
That was neat. I only play WoW after Classic era and even then never really get into more than around level 30, so everything here is completely new to me.