Thanks for this. A lot of us sharpen without a microscope (shocking, right?) and dont get to see this great view. You, Sir, are doing a service to the community
This isn't a whetstone vs diamond stone test. Regardless of the finish under the microscope, the usefulness of a diamondstone is that it doesn't wear down and remains flat through its life, which is incredibly long compared to a whetstone. Whetstones can be had at finer grits, which are great for finishing the sharpening process, but are not the best choice for removing large amounts of material.
I think it's a poor test. The knife was in awful condition and using the whetstone after the diamond gives inaccurate results. Most of the material was removed by the diamond and the whetstone removed the burr making it look better on the microscope. I think the test would have been more valid and reliable if one knife was sharpened with the diamond and the other with the whetstone and then compared time to sharpen and microscopic analysis of the edge.
Jason Roets i agree. I have a 600 grit diamond stone, and while i agree it makes a difference at high levels but the 600 grit diamond stone works amazing for edge prep before a full sharpen on any other grit. The early edge pattern doesnt matter as much since you are going to clean that up on higher grits anyway. To make it accurate he should have followed the scientific method, two knives, same make model and otherwise, then dulled them using the same method (a lot of other channels use this method when doing sharpening tests comparing two knives, or when trying to see if weird sharpening methods would work) Then sharpen each to full stopping after each grit, and then at the end talk about the benefit of whetstone having higher grit availability but instead only sharpen to each methods 1000 grit equivalent on two separate knives. It could be that a diamond stone gets the stone 1uicker to that point then you could use an 8000 grit whetstone to finish it
Also it's a fact that sharpening with water helps remove some of that metal clung up on the burr. I always wet sharpen with my diamond stones simply cause they seem to preform better.
I agree, and also only use my diamond stones wet, helps keep any heat build up away as well. Did not like the test, nothing to compare against, ie. 2 knives alternating between diamond and whetstones or similar. Also DMT Tan =8000 grit (3 micron) Plenty fine enough for most :P
I've watched like a bazillion knife sharpening videos and yours has been delivered with perfect clarity with showed exactly what I wanted to see. I did buy an electric sharpener, but I think I'll try stones too because this is such a fun hobby and you made it look quite straightforward as I suspect is actually is. I'd love to see the results of a stropping after a < 1000 grit pass, some of those sharpness tester things, but I suspect none if matters as much as the quality of the steel when I'm just making fajitas and chopping some logs. I'm not performing surgery with the same blade a thousand times. Anyway, cool video. Thanks for making it.
Great Video the close-ups on the blade really opened up my eyes to what's really going on in the sharpening process it helps in decision making. Again thanks!
I am thanking the creation of this vid at the second 20 merely for the fact of being professional and providing such an essential scientific starting point as showing a microscope's testimony,....
I generally sharpen across many grit level as well, when starting with a new piece of steel. After I have the edge I want and have looked the cutting face over with magnification I then switch to my edge dressing kit, which I use mostly for edge maintenance as it goes from 1000 grit wetstone to 30000 grit mirroring rod made of porcelain. The end result of tedious sharpening, honing, and mirroring of an edge tends to be a sharpness that will cut under its own weight and is very hard to dull under common use.
You have saved millions and millions of hours for all the people who should now understand what happens at the edge of the blade which needs a lot of good enlarging to realise where you can go wrong. Many thanks
For general knowledge, diamond stones take off more material, faster. Whetstone take off less material but achieve a finer edge because there is less "gouging" microscopically. I use a coarse diamond stone to set bevels but I use whetstones to finish the edge because it leaves it cleaner and takes off less material.
I just found this channel. You can see your knife edge if you look backwards through one side of a binocular. If you get good light it works pretty well! You look through the large end and put your edge very close to the small end.
wtf? won't it just look very far away then? as a kid i used to look thru them backwards so i would run into parked cars. who am i kidding, i did that last week
thanks mate. I've heard a few gifted sharpening blokes, use whetstones for the sharpening, and then they use a diamond stone, for resurfacing the whetstone, to keep flat, not actually using the diamond stone on the knife.
You showed something for everyone looking to save much coin and just dive right into the proper technique and tools. Here’s the problem with most including myself,we have to fail at short cuts before becoming honorable. In many ways the journey is needed. Great form you accomplished
It all depends on the niku of the blade . if the blade has niku edge then you need a higher angle when sharpening . a niku just means rounded and wider edge to those that dont know
@@santanajackson6160 Niku means meat in Japanese, and it doesn't refer to the edge itself, it refers to the thickness of the geometry of the blade behind the edge. So a blade that has big niku or more niku means it has more meat and is thicker. it doesn't relate to width of the blade only thickness. You can have a wide blade with small niku, and a narrow blade with larger niku. It just means how meaty it it, so you are half right.
Great review I guess it give a great perspective from the diamond limitations and the more fine stones... thanks for taking time in this analysis and thanks for sharing
Most people on UA-cam talk about what stones not to use, what stones to use. From your video I gathered it’s not just the type stone, it’s how you use it.
The thing I like about diamond is that they'll sharpen just about everything. Especially the modern super steels with all of the vanadium carbides and what not. A coarse ceramic stone will do the same thing, but once you get to finer grits they just start ripping the carbides out of the steel matrix. Not really a big deal if you're just sharpening carbon steel kitchen knives though I suppose.
WIthout using a lubricant on a budget diamond stone, this isn't really a fair comparison. Very interesting to see the edges on microscopic level, though.
I just found this video. I like the comparison. Saying that, I like using diamond stones for their speed of cutting and the longer life since they remain flat but I do finish on either a 6k whetstone or an ultra fine ceramic before stropping
All stones are "whetstones." Whet meaning to sharpen, or sharpening stones. Sub categories would be diamond stone, water stone, ceramic stone, oil stone, etc. A stone can be wet with water or oil. Maybe you just forgot the h in the title.
I understand the point others are making...but you cant argue with the results. The 8k finishing stone pretty much eliminated all the diamonds scratch pattern. I would have never imagined using both in my progression...but after seeing this may give it a shot. Great video..thank you
interesting video! it confirmed visually what i felt with my fingers. diamond stones seem good for hogging or rapid shaping. my water stones produce a superior edge. i suspect the diamond stones might be better for kitchen knives. great to hear a canadian voice again!
Cool video. I have found the jagged edge left by my coursest diamond stone to be more effective on my medium quality stainless knives than attempting a more highly polished edge, especially with things like tomatoes. The "micro-serrated" edge cuts better and lasts longer. Furthermore, a sharpening steel is effective at quickly renewing such an edge many times before it needs to be re-ground.
It would be interesting to see the wear patterns after a cut, multiple cuts with different knife steels in different common substances. Just touching the surface of a complex subject clouded by fact and fiction. Nice video. Take care. Doug
Thanks for making this video; it is very helpful in understanding what is really going on at the edge of a blade. What was the level of magnification on the microscope?
Dear @French River Springs , what microscope do you use? It seems perfect for learning on how to sharpen - also what magnification is that? Thanks in advance
@@andreicharpentierquesada4530 I have the finest dmt stone and I don't use it much. For normal knives going from the green dmt stone (extra fine) to the strop gives a perfect result. Only with knives that have very hard steel i use the extra extra fine dmt stone before stropping. I think it doesn't suck, but i think is has very limited use cases.
Hi, just a remark regarding the diamond stones - there is a diamond stone from DMT with 3micron / 8000 mesh grit available over Amazon. It is called by DMT extra-extra-fine.
I wouldn't take it. Those super fine diamonds wear out pretty fast. I'd go with diamond strops instead as budget solution or take the Spyderco benchstones which pretty much last forever.
So basically, since diamond stones don't ever need lapping, last MUCH longer as such than water stones, don't break/chip out on the edges(any ONE of those make diamond stones better grit size to grit size) then we should use diamond stones and a leather strop, which has about the same scratch pattern as an 800 grit Japanese stone (check other forums for chromium oxide grit size for confirmation in addition to the pictures shown here). I loved the video, even if just to confirm that 1200 diamond = 1000 water, and strop is about the same as an 8000 water stone. Just for confirmation though, using all water stones and strop, then showing all diamond stones then strop would really show any real differences, using a different(same type) knife for the side by side. It just seems you're muddying the water doing both at once then saying just water stones are what you need, when there really are plenty of drawbacks to doing so that aren't mentioned at all. Kinda makes the science/evidence a moot point to preference. I use both Japanese and diamond stones and there are reasons for using each, but if pure sharpness is the goal(not for being able to see yourself in the bevel of the knife), diamond is by far easier and cheaper in the long run(fewer stones for the same work and cuts MUCH faster so saves TIME, the biggest expense in life).
Ryan H No, traditional water stones last much longer precisely because they can be ground. While diamond stones last longer than a traditional stone that's unlapped and unmaintained, once diamond stones lose their abrasive, that's it. Traditional stones with lapping will last near forever with mild non aggressive lapping. Traditional stones are also able to achieve a much sharper edge. The sharpest dmt stone, extra extra fine, is 3 micron which is equivalent to the shapton 5000 grit. The highest a shapton goes to is 32,000 which is half a micron or 6 times more fine than the finest dmt stone. The advantage to diamond is that it's faster, it doesn't need to be flattened, and can be used wet or dry. However it does slowly degrade in how fast it sharpens. Eventually it will be too slow to reasonably used. Traditional stones don't degrade in this respect. It also doesn't give a mirror edge. The advantage to water stones is that it can go to a higher grit by a huge margin, it can last longer if maintained, and it can easily give a mirror polish edge whereas dmt stones can't. The disadvantages are that the stones need to be maintained like when it hollows from use and that it can't be dropped. Some stones need soaking and at least need water which is messy. Cost is a big factor also, diamond stones are a better value by a pretty wide margin unless you need perfection. In which case it gets very expensive. Keep in mind that grinding two waterstones together is an effective method of flattening but it takes off quite a bit of material. The best way to flatten is with the shapton lapping plate and if thats too much a dmt lapping plate. Ive also never heard of a person wearing down a shapton traditional :P
If you put any kind of weight into a diamond stone you'll strip the diamonds in short order. If time is important and you want to remove metal quickly you are much better off using a hard, coarse stone that you can really put your weight into. Personally I prefer the Norton SiC stones here because they wear (release fresh grit) at just the right rate when used at high pressure. Everything else is scratch pattern refinement and here I prefer water stones, largely because once you know how to work the stone you can achieve a wide range of finishes. This lets you get away with far fewer stones.
TK TK I wasn't speaking about the hardness of the abrasive, I was referring to the strength of the binder that holds the abrasive grains together. You can find both hard and soft SiC stones. The soft ones will groove easily when used carelessly, as Ryan W points out.
Actually a water stone lasts much longer than a diamond plate, no contest, they can be lapped. Diamond stones are actually quite easily damaged, especially when working the point, and once the surface is worn there is nothing that can be done about it. There are a lot of reasons to use water stones instead of diamonds. Diamonds aren't as consistent in grit size and scratch pattern, especially in the finer grits, and they cut extremely deep into the metal. Also for most softer and less abrasion resistant steels they are just overkill in aggressiveness, they can create much larger burrs in steels like these because of that and how deep they cut. Also a lot of people don't realize that diamond plates themselves actually take more damage sharpening softer steels. What happens is the diamond particles are able to cut very deeply into these softer steels and are essentially enveloped by the steel and more easily pulled from the plate than if it was cutting a harder, more abrasion resistant steel that it couldn't bite as deeply into. They also have horrible feedback in comparison to a good water stone, I feel like I learned more about sharpening in a week using them than I did in a year with diamond plates. Water stones also have the benefit of constantly refreshing the abrasives on the surface of the stone to keep cutting speed consistent across the life of the stone, a diamond stone will just slowly die and slow down from day one. Sure the diamonds cut faster when both stones are brand new but what about next year. I still use diamond plates for removing lots of material and working with really difficult steels and I also like to use 1 micron diamond paste for stropping. Like you said they both have their purpose but it seems like you are ignoring some of the drawbacks of diamond plates. I've tried both and I don't think the diamonds are the economical choice, I have a few old worn out DMTs but all my water stones are still going. Obviously I'm in the water stone camp, I just feel they are more versatile than diamonds or oil stones.
Beginner question. You've said that checking for the burr is important to know when to turn the blade over. Is this true for just the coarse grits or higher grits too?
The 8000grit scratch patten appears flatter and to have smaller scratch than the stropping produced. The stropping compound is a mix of cutting and polishing compounds and may have areas of polish between the scratches but the scratch patten appears to be coarser and deeper. Is that correct or are they different magnification?
French River Springs Please make more videos to us. It's good to me, because I learn English and about knife. And i found rod end here I will build a sharpener with your.
Interesting video. You know what would be a decent follow-up? Investigating whether the direction of the "teeth" actually matters in sharpening. If you pause at 2:27 , you can see that the direction is toward you. I've heard that these lines act similarly to the serrations of a steak knife, and can impact how it feels to cut with a knife. I think if you hold the knife differently while sharpening, you can achieve other directions, and that having them perpendicular to the blade would be the most efficient overall.
Lots of 1200 grit scratch pattern there at the end. I usually pick a grit like 3000 to remove 1000 pattern, then 6000 to remove 3000 scratches and then to the finer end like 10000 that I have before stropping. Removing 1200 scratches on 8000 takes forever, which is why something mid grade really helps to speed things up.
Thanks for this video, I was wondering the difference. I planned on buying a diamond stone for my sushi knife because they are usually cheaper. This was the info I needed.
Great Job. Could you tell me what whetstones i should buy? Most of my knives are at 58-59 HRC so no crazy hard steel japanese knives. I dont want to buy to many stones. What do i need as a minimum?
MrsRandomMadeMeDoIt I really like the Japanese wetstone. All you really need is a 1000 grit and a 8000 grit. Or you can buy a stone 1000 grit one side and 8000 grit on the other side. Then you can get a good strop. I got mine from stropman.com
Probably my poor skill level but I used to get nicks and little slices into regular stones, Plus would not stay 100% flat so had to flatten them. The diamonds are less satisfying to use and expensive for DMT brand but they are effective, stay flat and no gouging issues. Personal preference, both are good in their own way and no harm in owning both.
Have u ever tried venev diamond stones? They go way past 1200 grit but are a little bit pricey. They’re grit is different then what it says. Like F240 is really somewhere near 600 and so on
If you practice, same way you can kick a ball the same direction every time, or put bullets through the same hole, or whatever else. Repetition creates skill. Skill to hold it steady. If you're a beginner, you can use fingers to space the spine from the stone, to keep the same angle. Eventually you can just place the knife on the stone at the correct angle, and have no support, and get a great edge.
Tes vidéos sont toujours aussi bien expliquées, c'est vraiment un plaisir à voir ! Je t'ai découvert dans la vidéo où tu rases ta moustache avec ta hache, et je suis encore là à te suivre ! Continue comme ça, c'est vraiment génial ce que tu fais!
By the way, from your accent I suspect you are Québécois ;-) C'est mon cas ! J'ai vu une autre vidéo que vous avez faite avec des ciseaux de votre barbier -- j'ai toujours eu beaucoup de misère avec les ciseaux. Bravo!
What microscope are you using.. the venev bonded diamonds are amazing..the 2000 grit is about equivalent to a 15000 ..I was getting shined edges on some steels after the mid venev stones..
I think we were looking for a conclusion that one or the other is better and now we cant tell because it was done on the same knife. The only advantage i can see for a diamond plate is that it holds its shape and wouldnt have to be trued again.
So either you know next to nothing about diamond stones, or you are intentionally misleading people who know next to nothing about diamond stones. That stone looks like you got it on sale at Harbor Freight, or some Canadian equivalent. Probably polycrystalline ‘diamond’ glued to a thin sheet of crumby steel, which is in turn glued to a plastic block. I’m sure it isn’t remotely close to flat, and if you’ve used it a bunch, is definitely not cutting true to original grit size. If you want to get a proper idea of what a real diamond stone can do, these few things are a must: 1) Ensure your stone is a SINGLE piece of quality steel that... 2) Has been ELECTROPLATED with... 3) MONOCRYSTALLINE ‘diamonds’. 4) Lastly, please use a good lapping fluid, engineered for diamond plate sharpening. ‘Trend’ makes the best, imho. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not gonna knock a solid Japanese whetstone. I use Shaptons ‘glass’ (ceramic) stones for all of my daily carry knives (high carbon steel like m390, s30v, s35vn, etc.). However, when it comes to sharpening hss tools like my lathe chisels, carpentry chisels, or even cabinetry chisels I ALWAYS use a 300/1000 Trend diamond stone, followed by a loaded leather strop. Please... try to know what you’re talking about before you go leading people astray. If I were to take a stab at the demographics of your viewership I’d imagine that they are mostly newer hobbyists, that don’t know any better than to listen to you.
A good way to keep stones clean is to make an elevated platform from something like 1/4” hardware cloth(screen). Place in a pan with your choice of water or kerosene, up to cover screen. As you rinse the stone face down, the garbage goes to the bottom.
Thanks for this. A lot of us sharpen without a microscope (shocking, right?) and dont get to see this great view. You, Sir, are doing a service to the community
This isn't a whetstone vs diamond stone test. Regardless of the finish under the microscope, the usefulness of a diamondstone is that it doesn't wear down and remains flat through its life, which is incredibly long compared to a whetstone. Whetstones can be had at finer grits, which are great for finishing the sharpening process, but are not the best choice for removing large amounts of material.
I think it's a poor test. The knife was in awful condition and using the whetstone after the diamond gives inaccurate results. Most of the material was removed by the diamond and the whetstone removed the burr making it look better on the microscope. I think the test would have been more valid and reliable if one knife was sharpened with the diamond and the other with the whetstone and then compared time to sharpen and microscopic analysis of the edge.
Jason Roets i agree. I have a 600 grit diamond stone, and while i agree it makes a difference at high levels but the 600 grit diamond stone works amazing for edge prep before a full sharpen on any other grit. The early edge pattern doesnt matter as much since you are going to clean that up on higher grits anyway.
To make it accurate he should have followed the scientific method, two knives, same make model and otherwise, then dulled them using the same method (a lot of other channels use this method when doing sharpening tests comparing two knives, or when trying to see if weird sharpening methods would work)
Then sharpen each to full stopping after each grit, and then at the end talk about the benefit of whetstone having higher grit availability but instead only sharpen to each methods 1000 grit equivalent on two separate knives. It could be that a diamond stone gets the stone 1uicker to that point then you could use an 8000 grit whetstone to finish it
Jason Roets . Exactly what I was thinking.
Also it's a fact that sharpening with water helps remove some of that metal clung up on the burr. I always wet sharpen with my diamond stones simply cause they seem to preform better.
He needed two separate knives for the two different types of stones. How did this not occur to him?
I agree, and also only use my diamond stones wet, helps keep any heat build up away as well. Did not like the test, nothing to compare against, ie. 2 knives alternating between diamond and whetstones or similar. Also DMT Tan =8000 grit (3 micron) Plenty fine enough for most :P
I've watched like a bazillion knife sharpening videos and yours has been delivered with perfect clarity with showed exactly what I wanted to see. I did buy an electric sharpener, but I think I'll try stones too because this is such a fun hobby and you made it look quite straightforward as I suspect is actually is.
I'd love to see the results of a stropping after a < 1000 grit pass, some of those sharpness tester things, but I suspect none if matters as much as the quality of the steel when I'm just making fajitas and chopping some logs. I'm not performing surgery with the same blade a thousand times. Anyway, cool video. Thanks for making it.
Great Video the close-ups on the blade really opened up my eyes to what's really going on in the sharpening process it helps in decision making. Again thanks!
I am thanking the creation of this vid at the second 20 merely for the fact of being professional and providing such an essential scientific starting point as showing a microscope's testimony,....
I generally sharpen across many grit level as well, when starting with a new piece of steel. After I have the edge I want and have looked the cutting face over with magnification I then switch to my edge dressing kit, which I use mostly for edge maintenance as it goes from 1000 grit wetstone to 30000 grit mirroring rod made of porcelain. The end result of tedious sharpening, honing, and mirroring of an edge tends to be a sharpness that will cut under its own weight and is very hard to dull under common use.
You have saved millions and millions of hours for all the people who should now understand what happens at the edge of the blade which needs a lot of good enlarging to realise where you can go wrong. Many thanks
Howard Petterson your welcome. Ya those shavings.. I wonder if they get stuck in your intestine for life. :(
For general knowledge, diamond stones take off more material, faster. Whetstone take off less material but achieve a finer edge because there is less "gouging" microscopically. I use a coarse diamond stone to set bevels but I use whetstones to finish the edge because it leaves it cleaner and takes off less material.
Love the microscope views. Really helps realize how nice it is.
I just found this channel.
You can see your knife edge if you look backwards through one side of a binocular. If you get good light it works pretty well!
You look through the large end and put your edge very close to the small end.
Good idea. Never tough of doing that. Thanks
@@frenchriversprings You are welcome! Works great for seeing just about anything!
wtf? won't it just look very far away then? as a kid i used to look thru them backwards so i would run into parked cars.
who am i kidding, i did that last week
@@androidkenobi Just try it!
I always had apprehensions on diamond stones and your microscope views validated my viewpoint.
Explain.
That was really interesting to see the progression under a microscope. It looked beautiful after the stropping.
This was amazing to see the microscope views. Several have talked about it, but you actually did it! Thank you
Your welcome and thank you for the compliment. 😊
Much better job with Japanese whetstone! Nice! And that is the same angle I used on my BOWIE knife! Beautiful! Excellent video 🙂👍👍👍
thanks mate. I've heard a few gifted sharpening blokes, use whetstones for the sharpening, and then they use a diamond stone, for resurfacing the whetstone, to keep flat, not actually using the diamond stone on the knife.
Impressive results. A true professional making it look easy. Really nice blade also. Thanks for sharing.
You showed something for everyone looking to save much coin and just dive right into the proper technique and tools. Here’s the problem with most including myself,we have to fail at short cuts before becoming honorable. In many ways the journey is needed. Great form you accomplished
You use such a high angle!
A higher angle gives lesser sharpness but more durability while lower angles do vice versa.
It all depends on the niku of the blade . if the blade has niku edge then you need a higher angle when sharpening . a niku just means rounded and wider edge to those that dont know
@@santanajackson6160 Niku means meat in Japanese, and it doesn't refer to the edge itself, it refers to the thickness of the geometry of the blade behind the edge. So a blade that has big niku or more niku means it has more meat and is thicker. it doesn't relate to width of the blade only thickness. You can have a wide blade with small niku, and a narrow blade with larger niku. It just means how meaty it it, so you are half right.
@@londiniumarmoury7037 most people understand what they were talking about lol
@@myredfast yeah prob 🤓
I love the microscopic view! I finally understand the difference between grits! Short and to the point video!
this is awesome!!! thank you for doing the microscope thing, never seen that.. cool as hell!! think i'll keep my lanskyesque sharpener.
I use the same 10X loop I use for examining coins in my collection. Not quite the closeup he was getting but it works pretty well.
man i envy your skill, that bevel looks like it was done with a jig , many thanks for the presentation
Thanks for the great compliment and for watching!!!
Best explained video with the microscope ..thanks
Great review I guess it give a great perspective from the diamond limitations and the more fine stones... thanks for taking time in this analysis and thanks for sharing
You should use water also with the diamond stone. Just remember to dry it after usage to prevent the metal plate from rusting
Yep sharpened my kitchen knife with Falkniven diamond / ceramic D4 stone and fine sharpened it on Falkniven CC4 dual ceramic and came out pretty sharp
Most people on UA-cam talk about what stones not to use, what stones to use. From your video I gathered it’s not just the type stone, it’s how you use it.
The thing I like about diamond is that they'll sharpen just about everything. Especially the modern super steels with all of the vanadium carbides and what not. A coarse ceramic stone will do the same thing, but once you get to finer grits they just start ripping the carbides out of the steel matrix. Not really a big deal if you're just sharpening carbon steel kitchen knives though I suppose.
Let's say no HSS no problem, then yes diamond or cBN is essential.
But diamond ,unless it's vitrified , can't be done right after 1200 or so.
WIthout using a lubricant on a budget diamond stone, this isn't really a fair comparison. Very interesting to see the edges on microscopic level, though.
I just found this video. I like the comparison. Saying that, I like using diamond stones for their speed of cutting and the longer life since they remain flat but I do finish on either a 6k whetstone or an ultra fine ceramic before stropping
Yep. Good combo for sure
Great video., thanks! I have a question: what do you use as your microscope? 👍👍😊😊
The better the reflection? I noticed it cut so smooth!!
Very graphic- I loved seeing this! Rather compelling evidence- job well done and many thanks.
My dad walked in on the final view of the blade and he said "That blade is a danger to humanity"😂
All stones are "whetstones." Whet meaning to sharpen, or sharpening stones.
Sub categories would be diamond stone, water stone, ceramic stone,
oil stone, etc. A stone can be wet with water or oil. Maybe you just
forgot the h in the title.
And here I thought we'd be looking AT the stones under the microscope...but this was awesome too!
i`d like to see it again,going way way less pressure on the first diamond stone
I got more out of your comparison than any other video on UA-cam, thanks.
Beautiful finish on that blade, congratulations
I understand the point others are making...but you cant argue with the results. The 8k finishing stone pretty much eliminated all the diamonds scratch pattern.
I would have never imagined using both in my progression...but after seeing this may give it a shot.
Great video..thank you
Would like to know what kind of microscope setup you are using here. Want to sharpen my knives and be able to see the progress... thanks
interesting video! it confirmed visually what i felt with my fingers. diamond stones seem good for hogging or rapid shaping. my water stones produce a superior edge. i suspect the diamond stones might be better for kitchen knives. great to hear a canadian voice again!
This is the best sharpening video I’ve ever seen! Thank you for making this.
Try my 1000 grit diamond hone. I then strop on 8000 diamond paste in leather. Buffed edge, to sharp for kitchen work.
Cool video. I have found the jagged edge left by my coursest diamond stone to be more effective on my medium quality stainless knives than attempting a more highly polished edge, especially with things like tomatoes. The "micro-serrated" edge cuts better and lasts longer. Furthermore, a sharpening steel is effective at quickly renewing such an edge many times before it needs to be re-ground.
It would be interesting to see the wear patterns after a cut, multiple cuts with different knife steels in different common substances. Just touching the surface of a complex subject clouded by fact and fiction. Nice video. Take care. Doug
True, never saw that
Thanks for making this video; it is very helpful in understanding what is really going on at the edge of a blade. What was the level of magnification on the microscope?
Nice job. Liked the microscope shots. That blade must have been super sharp!
Very good question \ topic to cover, and a great demonstration.
Merci pour cette revue, surtout la vision au microscope. Hello to France !!!
Dear @French River Springs ,
what microscope do you use? It seems perfect for learning on how to sharpen - also what magnification is that?
Thanks in advance
DMT sharpening has 8k grit diamond stones now available.
People say that its sucks
@@andreicharpentierquesada4530 I have the finest dmt stone and I don't use it much. For normal knives going from the green dmt stone (extra fine) to the strop gives a perfect result. Only with knives that have very hard steel i use the extra extra fine dmt stone before stropping. I think it doesn't suck, but i think is has very limited use cases.
Thanks for the video, I wanted to know how they compared. The microscope really let me be the judge. Great job
Beautiful job
They don't suggest that pattern of strokes with diamond stones tho. Could this cause some of the markings?
What microscope is that
Hi, just a remark regarding the diamond stones - there is a diamond stone from DMT with 3micron / 8000 mesh grit available over Amazon. It is called by DMT extra-extra-fine.
I wouldn't take it. Those super fine diamonds wear out pretty fast. I'd go with diamond strops instead as budget solution or take the Spyderco benchstones which pretty much last forever.
So basically, since diamond stones don't ever need lapping, last MUCH longer as such than water stones, don't break/chip out on the edges(any ONE of those make diamond stones better grit size to grit size) then we should use diamond stones and a leather strop, which has about the same scratch pattern as an 800 grit Japanese stone (check other forums for chromium oxide grit size for confirmation in addition to the pictures shown here).
I loved the video, even if just to confirm that 1200 diamond = 1000 water, and strop is about the same as an 8000 water stone. Just for confirmation though, using all water stones and strop, then showing all diamond stones then strop would really show any real differences, using a different(same type) knife for the side by side. It just seems you're muddying the water doing both at once then saying just water stones are what you need, when there really are plenty of drawbacks to doing so that aren't mentioned at all. Kinda makes the science/evidence a moot point to preference.
I use both Japanese and diamond stones and there are reasons for using each, but if pure sharpness is the goal(not for being able to see yourself in the bevel of the knife), diamond is by far easier and cheaper in the long run(fewer stones for the same work and cuts MUCH faster so saves TIME, the biggest expense in life).
Ryan H No, traditional water stones last much longer precisely because they can be ground. While diamond stones last longer than a traditional stone that's unlapped and unmaintained, once diamond stones lose their abrasive, that's it. Traditional stones with lapping will last near forever with mild non aggressive lapping. Traditional stones are also able to achieve a much sharper edge. The sharpest dmt stone, extra extra fine, is 3 micron which is equivalent to the shapton 5000 grit. The highest a shapton goes to is 32,000 which is half a micron or 6 times more fine than the finest dmt stone.
The advantage to diamond is that it's faster, it doesn't need to be flattened, and can be used wet or dry. However it does slowly degrade in how fast it sharpens. Eventually it will be too slow to reasonably used. Traditional stones don't degrade in this respect. It also doesn't give a mirror edge.
The advantage to water stones is that it can go to a higher grit by a huge margin, it can last longer if maintained, and it can easily give a mirror polish edge whereas dmt stones can't. The disadvantages are that the stones need to be maintained like when it hollows from use and that it can't be dropped. Some stones need soaking and at least need water which is messy. Cost is a big factor also, diamond stones are a better value by a pretty wide margin unless you need perfection. In which case it gets very expensive.
Keep in mind that grinding two waterstones together is an effective method of flattening but it takes off quite a bit of material. The best way to flatten is with the shapton lapping plate and if thats too much a dmt lapping plate. Ive also never heard of a person wearing down a shapton traditional :P
If you put any kind of weight into a diamond stone you'll strip the diamonds in short order. If time is important and you want to remove metal quickly you are much better off using a hard, coarse stone that you can really put your weight into. Personally I prefer the Norton SiC stones here because they wear (release fresh grit) at just the right rate when used at high pressure. Everything else is scratch pattern refinement and here I prefer water stones, largely because once you know how to work the stone you can achieve a wide range of finishes. This lets you get away with far fewer stones.
Ryan W SiC gets pretty close to diamond hardness with the only widespread thing beating it other than diamond, cubic boron nitride.
TK TK I wasn't speaking about the hardness of the abrasive, I was referring to the strength of the binder that holds the abrasive grains together. You can find both hard and soft SiC stones. The soft ones will groove easily when used carelessly, as Ryan W points out.
Actually a water stone lasts much longer than a diamond plate, no contest, they can be lapped. Diamond stones are actually quite easily damaged, especially when working the point, and once the surface is worn there is nothing that can be done about it. There are a lot of reasons to use water stones instead of diamonds. Diamonds aren't as consistent in grit size and scratch pattern, especially in the finer grits, and they cut extremely deep into the metal. Also for most softer and less abrasion resistant steels they are just overkill in aggressiveness, they can create much larger burrs in steels like these because of that and how deep they cut. Also a lot of people don't realize that diamond plates themselves actually take more damage sharpening softer steels. What happens is the diamond particles are able to cut very deeply into these softer steels and are essentially enveloped by the steel and more easily pulled from the plate than if it was cutting a harder, more abrasion resistant steel that it couldn't bite as deeply into. They also have horrible feedback in comparison to a good water stone, I feel like I learned more about sharpening in a week using them than I did in a year with diamond plates. Water stones also have the benefit of constantly refreshing the abrasives on the surface of the stone to keep cutting speed consistent across the life of the stone, a diamond stone will just slowly die and slow down from day one. Sure the diamonds cut faster when both stones are brand new but what about next year. I still use diamond plates for removing lots of material and working with really difficult steels and I also like to use 1 micron diamond paste for stropping. Like you said they both have their purpose but it seems like you are ignoring some of the drawbacks of diamond plates. I've tried both and I don't think the diamonds are the economical choice, I have a few old worn out DMTs but all my water stones are still going. Obviously I'm in the water stone camp, I just feel they are more versatile than diamonds or oil stones.
Beginner question. You've said that checking for the burr is important to know when to turn the blade over. Is this true for just the coarse grits or higher grits too?
Just the first coarse grit
@@frenchriversprings thanks!
The 8000grit scratch patten appears flatter and to have smaller scratch than the stropping produced. The stropping compound is a mix of cutting and polishing compounds and may have areas of polish between the scratches but the scratch patten appears to be coarser and deeper. Is that correct or are they different magnification?
It's just because the stropping polished up the scratches so now the 8000 grit scratches appear deeper
Your videos are greats. I'm from Brazil. Take care my friend.
Thank you!
French River Springs your channel is AMAZING keep up the great work!!!!!!👍👍
Gilberto Eufrásio do Couto thanks. I really appreciate positive comments. It encourages me to make more videos!
French River Springs Please make more videos to us. It's good to me, because I learn English and about knife. And i found rod end here I will build a sharpener with your.
Interesting video. You know what would be a decent follow-up? Investigating whether the direction of the "teeth" actually matters in sharpening. If you pause at 2:27 , you can see that the direction is toward you. I've heard that these lines act similarly to the serrations of a steak knife, and can impact how it feels to cut with a knife. I think if you hold the knife differently while sharpening, you can achieve other directions, and that having them perpendicular to the blade would be the most efficient overall.
Thanks for making this video. Very educational
Thank you
Could you use this for scissors and would you have to take apart. Thank you
Lots of 1200 grit scratch pattern there at the end. I usually pick a grit like 3000 to remove 1000 pattern, then 6000 to remove 3000 scratches and then to the finer end like 10000 that I have before stropping. Removing 1200 scratches on 8000 takes forever, which is why something mid grade really helps to speed things up.
How about with super steels like M4, S30V, M390, and so on?
Do I need to add water to the leather????
Can you show also razor blade's microscopic view since you mentioned razor sharp.
Thanks for this video, I was wondering the difference. I planned on buying a diamond stone for my sushi knife because they are usually cheaper. This was the info I needed.
How much this diamond sharpener & where can i buy
Great Job. Could you tell me what whetstones i should buy? Most of my knives are at 58-59 HRC so no crazy hard steel japanese knives. I dont want to buy to many stones. What do i need as a minimum?
MrsRandomMadeMeDoIt I really like the Japanese wetstone. All you really need is a 1000 grit and a 8000 grit. Or you can buy a stone 1000 grit one side and 8000 grit on the other side. Then you can get a good strop. I got mine from stropman.com
Great video dude! Showed me a few things,
great video what kind of microscope are you using and what magnification to see these results
i got the same diamond sharpening plate at a local home depot, works great
thank you for using the microscope, it really helps a lot :)
Probably my poor skill level but I used to get nicks and little slices into regular stones, Plus would not stay 100% flat so had to flatten them. The diamonds are less satisfying to use and expensive for DMT brand but they are effective, stay flat and no gouging issues. Personal preference, both are good in their own way and no harm in owning both.
Some lapping fluid on the diamond plate would make it smoother. You're sharpening over metal shavings...
For quality purposes...
Please link what type and where you purchased each sharpener in the description of the video.
I like how you move the stone to sharpen instead of changing knife position.
What microscope equipment do you use? Thank you very much for the comparison, that's exactly what i was wondering! Really nice vid!
Have u ever tried venev diamond stones? They go way past 1200 grit but are a little bit pricey. They’re grit is different then what it says. Like F240 is really somewhere near 600 and so on
Never heard of it but I will check it out.
I just don't get it. How can you possibly get the same angle every time?
If you practice, same way you can kick a ball the same direction every time, or put bullets through the same hole, or whatever else. Repetition creates skill. Skill to hold it steady.
If you're a beginner, you can use fingers to space the spine from the stone, to keep the same angle.
Eventually you can just place the knife on the stone at the correct angle, and have no support, and get a great edge.
no paper cut tests after? no hair cut?
Tes vidéos sont toujours aussi bien expliquées, c'est vraiment un plaisir à voir ! Je t'ai découvert dans la vidéo où tu rases ta moustache avec ta hache, et je suis encore là à te suivre ! Continue comme ça, c'est vraiment génial ce que tu fais!
Docteur Correcteur. Merci pour le compliment!! C'est apprécié. :)
By the way, from your accent I suspect you are Québécois ;-) C'est mon cas ! J'ai vu une autre vidéo que vous avez faite avec des ciseaux de votre barbier -- j'ai toujours eu beaucoup de misère avec les ciseaux. Bravo!
I'm wondering about this, useing a kitchen counter to do his sharpening, when he's a so called "woodworker" ?
I wonder what if you use different technique to sharpen a knife "under the microscope"??
Would’ve liked to see any quick cutting Demonstration at the very end otherwise excellent video good information thanks
Great Video 👍 what type of microscope did you use? I'm planning on buying one. Thanks again for the video 😎👍👍👍👍
What microscope are you using.. the venev bonded diamonds are amazing..the 2000 grit is about equivalent to a 15000 ..I was getting shined edges on some steels after the mid venev stones..
I think we were looking for a conclusion that one or the other is better and now we cant tell because it was done on the same knife. The only advantage i can see for a diamond plate is that it holds its shape and wouldnt have to be trued again.
where can I buy any of those?
i don't think you actually cleaned off the old rough edge untill 1000gr, any grit the edge shouldn't look so torn no?
I love it that this guy has a huge bandage on his left thumb.
Paper cut
You used the diamond stone dry. What did you expect?
So either you know next to nothing about diamond stones, or you are intentionally misleading people who know next to nothing about diamond stones. That stone looks like you got it on sale at Harbor Freight, or some Canadian equivalent. Probably polycrystalline ‘diamond’ glued to a thin sheet of crumby steel, which is in turn glued to a plastic block. I’m sure it isn’t remotely close to flat, and if you’ve used it a bunch, is definitely not cutting true to original grit size.
If you want to get a proper idea of what a real diamond stone can do, these few things are a must:
1) Ensure your stone is a SINGLE piece of quality steel that...
2) Has been ELECTROPLATED with...
3) MONOCRYSTALLINE ‘diamonds’.
4) Lastly, please use a good lapping fluid, engineered for diamond plate sharpening. ‘Trend’ makes the best, imho.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not gonna knock a solid Japanese whetstone. I use Shaptons ‘glass’ (ceramic) stones for all of my daily carry knives (high carbon steel like m390, s30v, s35vn, etc.). However, when it comes to sharpening hss tools like my lathe chisels, carpentry chisels, or even cabinetry chisels I ALWAYS use a 300/1000 Trend diamond stone, followed by a loaded leather strop.
Please... try to know what you’re talking about before you go leading people astray. If I were to take a stab at the demographics of your viewership I’d imagine that they are mostly newer hobbyists, that don’t know any better than to listen to you.
I use waterstones for scandi and diamond laps for full flat. For axes and big knives I take the stone to the tool. Not the other way around
I'm looking for a better advice to buy diamond files or Japanese stones?
thanks in advance
I like the Japanese stone better
A good way to keep stones clean is to make an elevated platform from something like 1/4” hardware cloth(screen). Place in a pan with your choice of water or kerosene, up to cover screen. As you rinse the stone face down, the garbage goes to the bottom.
What stone could you sharpen razor blades with ???
8000 grit whetstone
@@frenchriversprings can you do a video on it does the razor blade need only a fine Stone no rough since it's so thin